@@RussellHoughton Hi Russell, no I have not tried any of the PPU 6.5 MS yet. I swung by one of the local shops last week to see if he had any in stock but he was off on vacation and was closed. Do you recall how much they were asking for it?
No, the 6,5 Carcano was loaded with Balistite in the First years of production. Solenite was used from about 1908 and the First cartridges loaded with Solenite were marked with a star in the headstamp
I read somewhere that the core was loaded in as twelve separate discs. IIRC Hornady makes a .268 bullet for the Carcano and warns against using it in any other 6.5 cartridge or rifle. It might be interesting to get your rifle slugged...
A multi piece core? That's interesting. If I had a few of these rounds I'd be tempted to section a bullet, but as I only have the one I'll leave the bullet intact.
Interesting video thanks. I have one of those stashed away in my collection too, not sure on the year tho I'd have to dig it out to check the headstamp. The powder reminds me somewhat of what the cordite from a .303 would look like if the sticks were chopped up but it looks a fair bit coarser, unusual looking stuff indeed.
Not sure it's cordite, but possibly, I'm not a cordite expert, just looks different than any cordite I've ever seen. The orange-yellow discoloration may be decomposition. I know that is a sign to look for to see if your powder is starting to decompose, per modern powder manufacturers. Size and shape suggests that it's for something much larger than 6.5mm.
The powder is not Cordite, it is Solenite powder. From what I understand the two types of powder are chemically similar. The big difference between the two types is in their form, with Chordite being formed in strands whereas the Solenite is in short perforated chunks as seen in the video. While it may look rather "chunky" compared to modern propellants, Solenite it is the powder factory loaded into military 6.5x52 Italian made ammo from the start until they stopped making the stuff. The color of the stuff is unusual but that is normal if you look up pictures of the stuff, I don't think it is degraded or decomposing.
Yep, I'm aware that the Cooey Carcano is 6.5x54 and not 6.5x52. It is a good reminder to anyone who comes across one as the 6.5x52 will chamber in a 6.5x54 and would fire but the result would be excessive headspace leading possibly to a case head separation.
The projectile was known for penetrating deep and in a straight line, so unless it hit a bone would likely not do much more than poking a hole in an adversary.
Hi Sean. I have been looking online in Canada at PPU ammo in 6.5x52 and see that some boxes show a bullet dia of .264 . Do you know if the make it in the bigger dia. I would not want to order the wrong stuff. I need the .264 for the Cooey Carcano. Thanks.
If you want ammo for the Cooey Carcano you want the 6.5×54mm Mannlicher-Schönauer round and to the best of my knowledge it is loaded with .264 or smaller bullets (the factory stuff I have has .261" bullets). The Cooey Carcano appear to have smaller dimension bores by quite a bit compared to a regular military 6.5x52 Carcano. For bullets to reload the 6.5x54 M-S I think your only current options are the various .264" bullets, the special .266/.268 Carcano bullets are too big.
I think that loaded with a 155 MatchKing-type of projectile, this would have been a decent military round. I believe the Italians should have had Germany chamber this in K98s for their own useage.
A K98 in 6.5 would be a pretty sweet rifle to shoot, assuming they changed the sights to something better than the German v notch rear and barley corn front.
@@314299 So very true! A blade front and square notch would be a vast improvement. However, better still, the Germans should have replaced that rear sight to something akin to a M1903A3 system, IMO.
The 7.92x57mm, in my opinion, is a superior cartridge. The Italians used a non-standard bullet diameter. With that being said, if the Germans adopted the Carcano cartridge for the 98k, they would have improved it and made it more standardized and would have utilized a more standard bullet diameter of .264 and adapted it for the Spitzer type bullet of 140ish grains. Giving it better ballistics. The projectile would have been a boat tail FMJ. The priming would have been a boxer primed. Regular nitrocellous powder would have been utilized. The 98k could handle higher pressures. The Italian mannlicher Carcano wouldn't have been able to handle the pressure of a modern cartridge. So, in order for the said cartridge to have worked for both militaries, this modified Carcano cartridge would have had to be throttled down. This would have handicapped the 98k. Another issue with full power 6.5's is barrel life. The big .30's and .32 cal bullets have excellent barrel life. 1000's of rounds could be put down the barrel before it wears out. With 6.5's, you start to lose that barrel longevity. This is because of throat erosion. In military applications, that's a huge factor. Especially for machine guns. Not too many militaries adopted 6.5s. The 6.5s do have the advantage of flatter trajectories, better down range performance, and lighter recoil. But under combat conditions, a larger caliber bullet is actually more beneficial for logistics and maintenance and reliability reasons. With all that being said, a 6.5 in a 98k would have been interesting. Basically, the Carcano cartridge would have been, in my opinion, a military version of the .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmoor. It would be interesting to see what the Carcano does when loaded in a modern rifle with a 140ish grain. 264 high bc bullet. In my opinion, you'll have another 6.5 Creedmoor.
Bullet not quite round. When it is fired - presuming the diameter in the bore is correct - the bullet seals off the barrel in regard to the burning powder and when the bullet leaves the bore it IS the diameter of the bore (and shows rifling marks). Weight of the projectile was established in 'grams' rather than 'grains'. Metric, not Imperial measure. I would think the 'official' weight (what the specs called for) was 10 grams. That would be 154.5 grains. Some variation is expected, but within specified parameters. Shape of bullet. The round was designed in 1891 or thereabouts. This was less than ten years after the development of smokeless gun powder. Just about all the designers of arms and cartridges were 'black powder' trained. All (black powder) bullets were heavy for caliber and round nosed. Consequently all the smokeless powder bullets were as well, as that was how bullets were shaped. However, the jacketing was needed as the higher velocity would cause a solid lead bullet to 'lead' (smear lead on) the bore. Later on some few years the increased velocity lead to a lightening of the bullets and 'streamlining' the projectiles. The history of development is fascinating. But I'm a nerd. Powder. What we currently recognize as 'gunpowder' is NOT the only version known. In 1891 there were several forms and formulae for 'smokeless' powder. Some burned hotter than others and so forth, so what we recognize is several types that function well (by our contemporary standards) in arms for an individual. The history of gunpowder is a study in itself. (My nerd is taking control of me.) Powder charge seems to be about normal for IMR 3031 or IMR 4064. In examining other rifle cartridges of the era, I am led to believe the smokeless powder of the time was all rather fast burning. Which is why most of the rifles had muzzle velocities in the lower 2000 fps range. Enjoyed the video. More knowledge and examination than gusto and phony masculine proof.
I once had a 6.5 Carcano and I remember shooting a WW2 round through it. I shot a 3 foot flame. I later was told that the Italians had used nitroglycerine in their powder.
The "Solenite" powder loaded in Italian military 6.5x52mm ammo is composed of trinitrocellulose (40%), dinitrocellulose (21%), nitroglycerine (36%) and mineral oil (3%). As a mater of fact all double base smokeless power all contains nitroglycerine, I'm not sure if it is the component that contributes a lot to muzzle flash. Modern powders often have compounds added to them to minimize the muzzle flash.
M1891 Carcano rifle barrels have Progressive Rifling meaning that the base with the exposed lead bottom will expand midway to the middle of the barrel and squeeze through till it exits the barrel. This is not new, the 1891 Carcano barrel came from the 19th Century barrel system to the Minie bullet to where the base expands to grasp the rifling starting big from the top of the mouth as the brass casing's neck and shoulder expand to seal the gasses so there is minimal gases blowing back through the chamber into the rifleman. The Carcano in my opinion had the split designed receiver like the German M1888 with dual lug for safety and strength. The long 6.5mm diameter long slender bullet was designed to expand at the base supported by the long jacket to cruise through the rifling as it gets smaller as it exits and have a stable flight to it's target. During the late 1890s, barrels of German, Austrian, French, Scandinavian countries had same bore diameter designs from mouth to crown to deliver consistent accuracy with one standard. The Italians through Salvatore Carcano had designed the Italian Army's rifles using the Progressive Rifling system dating back to the Black Powder Era, thinking that with much more better powders using an expandable base and Progressive Rifling would enhance accuracy. The only Italian Army formations that complained about this before WWI and after was the Bersaglieri and the Alpini Mountain troops who are above marksman from the Italian conscript infantry. The Italian Army never corrected this because producing more rifles and ammo means they can arm more troops to fight the Austrians and Germans in Northern Italy.
I take issue with your statement that the bullet "base with the exposed lead bottom will expand". No it wont. Unless radically "cupped" at the base there is no way a jacketed bullet will expand at the base as the jacket is just too thick to allow that. Also the jacket at the base is rolled in to reinforce the bullet.
@@314299 He is correct. The chamber pressure of the Carcano (40,000 psi) will deform copper which is a soft crystalline metal that will micro-fracture and the rolled edge is designed to capture the pressure wave into a cupped lead core round nosed bullet to more effectively engage the lands and grooves of the rifling. A modern spitzer bullet of boat tail design works on different principles to engage the spiral effect of rifling which could be most closely compared to hydrodynamics. Laminar and turbulent flow effects reduce drag and a higher chamber pressure (velocity) reduces the amount of time the projectile is in flight. It's a little apples to oranges, but pull a .22 bullet out of a round with a pliers. it has a cup. Now try putting a .22 cartridge into the muzzle. straight walled cartridge will not fit.
M1938 Carcano short rifles were made in both 7.35mm and 6.5mm. The cartridges are of course not interchangeable. The 7.35mm round was not used in the Carcano long rifles or any of the true Carcano carbines.
I would see who sells distributes PPU brand ammo in your area, PPU are the most likely brand of 6.5x52 you will find in stock. Norma is another manufacturer, but at a higher price.
the 160 grain wt of the projectile---and its length ==-----its not very aerodynamically stable --& tumbles easily --6 ,5 mm I have used on Hartebeest and Kudu ---Here in Zambia --sideways tumbling bullet does enormous damage on medium game at 150 yards---no wonder it blew a huge gaping hole in JFK ,S cranium ---no magic in this round!
Hi guys, the original upload of this video was missing the end, this version is a little longer. Sorry for the mistake.
I was surprised to see a few boxes of ppu carcano ammo at the newminas canadian tire a few days ago. Have you tried that stuff.
@@RussellHoughton Hi Russell, no I have not tried any of the PPU 6.5 MS yet. I swung by one of the local shops last week to see if he had any in stock but he was off on vacation and was closed. Do you recall how much they were asking for it?
@314299 45 or 50. Not that unreasonable considering most ammo that had started at 40 and went up to 75 for the magnums
Using imperial measurements on a metric cartridge. Only in the americas.
Trust the Italians to use macaroni instead of powder.
"Anelli" gunpowder?
@@314299 Yes, that pasta looks more like it.
Sounds tasty 😋
😂
Solenite is that powder
Because of your video I realized a few of these empty casings in my bucket were exactly these cartridges...😊
Cool. It's always nice to be able to ID a previously unidentified round.
Definitely Solenite powder. I think that's all they ever used in the 6.5.
Yes, apparently the Italians only used Solenite in the 6.5 from the rounds introduction right to when they stopped making 6.5 ammo.
No, the 6,5 Carcano was loaded with Balistite in the First years of production. Solenite was used from about 1908 and the First cartridges loaded with Solenite were marked with a star in the headstamp
I saw a similar powder in Soviet high caliber ammo.
That powder brought me memories from younger years
Thanks 😊
Was that similar looking powder used in special sub sonic ammo for the 7.62x54R?
Wonderful video, and all the measurements really helps. Thank you
I'm glad you found it interesting. Thanks for the comment!
That was really interesting. Thanks!
Glad you liked it, thanks for commenting.
I read somewhere that the core was loaded in as twelve separate discs. IIRC Hornady makes a .268 bullet for the Carcano and warns against using it in any other 6.5 cartridge or rifle. It might be interesting to get your rifle slugged...
A multi piece core? That's interesting. If I had a few of these rounds I'd be tempted to section a bullet, but as I only have the one I'll leave the bullet intact.
The red tint is the pasta sauce it is soaked in before going into the brass…lol
It must have been extra spicey sauce.
An interesting "Cartidgetopsy." 😊
Certainly a powder I've never seen before.
Thank you for making this information available.
Interesting video thanks. I have one of those stashed away in my collection too, not sure on the year tho I'd have to dig it out to check the headstamp.
The powder reminds me somewhat of what the cordite from a .303 would look like if the sticks were chopped up but it looks a fair bit coarser, unusual looking stuff indeed.
Yes, I thought it looks a bit like chopped up cordite. The granules have that semi-translucent look to them like cordite.
Not sure it's cordite, but possibly, I'm not a cordite expert, just looks different than any cordite I've ever seen. The orange-yellow discoloration may be decomposition. I know that is a sign to look for to see if your powder is starting to decompose, per modern powder manufacturers. Size and shape suggests that it's for something much larger than 6.5mm.
The powder is not Cordite, it is Solenite powder. From what I understand the two types of powder are chemically similar. The big difference between the two types is in their form, with Chordite being formed in strands whereas the Solenite is in short perforated chunks as seen in the video. While it may look rather "chunky" compared to modern propellants, Solenite it is the powder factory loaded into military 6.5x52 Italian made ammo from the start until they stopped making the stuff. The color of the stuff is unusual but that is normal if you look up pictures of the stuff, I don't think it is degraded or decomposing.
Great video, thanks for sharing. Don’t use that ammo in the Cooey Carcano. It’s been rechamberd for 6.5 MS. Take care.
Yep, I'm aware that the Cooey Carcano is 6.5x54 and not 6.5x52. It is a good reminder to anyone who comes across one as the 6.5x52 will chamber in a 6.5x54 and would fire but the result would be excessive headspace leading possibly to a case head separation.
I bought a 6.5 Carcano at Kmart in San Angelo Tx in 1966 for $15. I was only 12:yrs old.
I'm guessing that K-Mart might not sell a rifle to a 12 year old today.
I was thinking that powder would makle a great necklas
Just don't get too lose to camp fires!
I inherited an old shoebox full of old ammunition belonging to my great grandfather and found a bunch of this ammunition
Nice. What year were they made?
Strange round yugo partizans called it silk bullet because wounds would heal fast and with litlle complications
The projectile was known for penetrating deep and in a straight line, so unless it hit a bone would likely not do much more than poking a hole in an adversary.
Hi Sean. I have been looking online in Canada at PPU ammo in 6.5x52 and see that some boxes show a bullet dia of .264 . Do you know if the make it in the bigger dia. I would not want to order the wrong stuff. I need the .264 for the Cooey Carcano. Thanks.
If you want ammo for the Cooey Carcano you want the 6.5×54mm Mannlicher-Schönauer round and to the best of my knowledge it is loaded with .264 or smaller bullets (the factory stuff I have has .261" bullets). The Cooey Carcano appear to have smaller dimension bores by quite a bit compared to a regular military 6.5x52 Carcano. For bullets to reload the 6.5x54 M-S I think your only current options are the various .264" bullets, the special .266/.268 Carcano bullets are too big.
I think that loaded with a 155 MatchKing-type of projectile, this would have been a decent military round. I believe the Italians should have had Germany chamber this in K98s for their own useage.
A K98 in 6.5 would be a pretty sweet rifle to shoot, assuming they changed the sights to something better than the German v notch rear and barley corn front.
@@314299 So very true! A blade front and square notch would be a vast improvement. However, better still, the Germans should have replaced that rear sight to something akin to a M1903A3 system, IMO.
The 7.92x57mm, in my opinion, is a superior cartridge. The Italians used a non-standard bullet diameter. With that being said, if the Germans adopted the Carcano cartridge for the 98k, they would have improved it and made it more standardized and would have utilized a more standard bullet diameter of .264 and adapted it for the Spitzer type bullet of 140ish grains. Giving it better ballistics. The projectile would have been a boat tail FMJ. The priming would have been a boxer primed. Regular nitrocellous powder would have been utilized. The 98k could handle higher pressures. The Italian mannlicher Carcano wouldn't have been able to handle the pressure of a modern cartridge. So, in order for the said cartridge to have worked for both militaries, this modified Carcano cartridge would have had to be throttled down. This would have handicapped the 98k. Another issue with full power 6.5's is barrel life. The big .30's and .32 cal bullets have excellent barrel life. 1000's of rounds could be put down the barrel before it wears out. With 6.5's, you start to lose that barrel longevity. This is because of throat erosion. In military applications, that's a huge factor. Especially for machine guns. Not too many militaries adopted 6.5s. The 6.5s do have the advantage of flatter trajectories, better down range performance, and lighter recoil. But under combat conditions, a larger caliber bullet is actually more beneficial for logistics and maintenance and reliability reasons. With all that being said, a 6.5 in a 98k would have been interesting. Basically, the Carcano cartridge would have been, in my opinion, a military version of the .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmoor. It would be interesting to see what the Carcano does when loaded in a modern rifle with a 140ish grain. 264 high bc bullet. In my opinion, you'll have another 6.5 Creedmoor.
Bullet not quite round. When it is fired - presuming the diameter in the bore is correct - the bullet seals off the barrel in regard to the burning powder and when the bullet leaves the bore it IS the diameter of the bore (and shows rifling marks).
Weight of the projectile was established in 'grams' rather than 'grains'. Metric, not Imperial measure. I would think the 'official' weight (what the specs called for) was 10 grams. That would be 154.5 grains. Some variation is expected, but within specified parameters.
Shape of bullet. The round was designed in 1891 or thereabouts. This was less than ten years after the development of smokeless gun powder. Just about all the designers of arms and cartridges were 'black powder' trained. All (black powder) bullets were heavy for caliber and round nosed. Consequently all the smokeless powder bullets were as well, as that was how bullets were shaped. However, the jacketing was needed as the higher velocity would cause a solid lead bullet to 'lead' (smear lead on) the bore.
Later on some few years the increased velocity lead to a lightening of the bullets and 'streamlining' the projectiles.
The history of development is fascinating. But I'm a nerd.
Powder. What we currently recognize as 'gunpowder' is NOT the only version known. In 1891 there were several forms and formulae for 'smokeless' powder. Some burned hotter than others and so forth, so what we recognize is several types that function well (by our contemporary standards) in arms for an individual. The history of gunpowder is a study in itself. (My nerd is taking control of me.)
Powder charge seems to be about normal for IMR 3031 or IMR 4064. In examining other rifle cartridges of the era, I am led to believe the smokeless powder of the time was all rather fast burning. Which is why most of the rifles had muzzle velocities in the lower 2000 fps range.
Enjoyed the video. More knowledge and examination than gusto and phony masculine proof.
I once had a 6.5 Carcano and I remember shooting a WW2 round through it. I shot a 3 foot flame. I later was told that the Italians had used nitroglycerine in their powder.
The "Solenite" powder loaded in Italian military 6.5x52mm ammo is composed of trinitrocellulose (40%), dinitrocellulose (21%), nitroglycerine (36%) and mineral oil (3%). As a mater of fact all double base smokeless power all contains nitroglycerine, I'm not sure if it is the component that contributes a lot to muzzle flash. Modern powders often have compounds added to them to minimize the muzzle flash.
M1891 Carcano rifle barrels have Progressive Rifling meaning that the base with the exposed lead bottom will expand midway to the middle of the barrel and squeeze through till it exits the barrel. This is not new, the 1891 Carcano barrel came from the 19th Century barrel system to the Minie bullet to where the base expands to grasp the rifling starting big from the top of the mouth as the brass casing's neck and shoulder expand to seal the gasses so there is minimal gases blowing back through the chamber into the rifleman. The Carcano in my opinion had the split designed receiver like the German M1888 with dual lug for safety and strength. The long 6.5mm diameter long slender bullet was designed to expand at the base supported by the long jacket to cruise through the rifling as it gets smaller as it exits and have a stable flight to it's target. During the late 1890s, barrels of German, Austrian, French, Scandinavian countries had same bore diameter designs from mouth to crown to deliver consistent accuracy with one standard. The Italians through Salvatore Carcano had designed the Italian Army's rifles using the Progressive Rifling system dating back to the Black Powder Era, thinking that with much more better powders using an expandable base and Progressive Rifling would enhance accuracy. The only Italian Army formations that complained about this before WWI and after was the Bersaglieri and the Alpini Mountain troops who are above marksman from the Italian conscript infantry. The Italian Army never corrected this because producing more rifles and ammo means they can arm more troops to fight the Austrians and Germans in Northern Italy.
I take issue with your statement that the bullet "base with the exposed lead bottom will expand". No it wont. Unless radically "cupped" at the base there is no way a jacketed bullet will expand at the base as the jacket is just too thick to allow that. Also the jacket at the base is rolled in to reinforce the bullet.
@@314299 He is correct. The chamber pressure of the Carcano (40,000 psi) will deform copper which is a soft crystalline metal that will micro-fracture and the rolled edge is designed to capture the pressure wave into a cupped lead core round nosed bullet to more effectively engage the lands and grooves of the rifling. A modern spitzer bullet of boat tail design works on different principles to engage the spiral effect of rifling which could be most closely compared to hydrodynamics. Laminar and turbulent flow effects reduce drag and a higher chamber pressure (velocity) reduces the amount of time the projectile is in flight.
It's a little apples to oranges, but pull a .22 bullet out of a round with a pliers. it has a cup. Now try putting a .22 cartridge into the muzzle. straight walled cartridge will not fit.
7.35 and 6.5 ..fit in the same carcano carabine???? Thanks
M1938 Carcano short rifles were made in both 7.35mm and 6.5mm. The cartridges are of course not interchangeable. The 7.35mm round was not used in the Carcano long rifles or any of the true Carcano carbines.
the powder looks really strange, it could be Solenite
Yes, it is indeed Solenite powder.
Comment for the al gore rhythm :)
When ya going to do some shooting vid.'s again like the old times ?
soon i hope :) @@MegaBait1616
Careful or your comment might cause global warming....
Interesting!
Thanks, glad you liked it.
Forbidden liquorice
Seriously course powder.
Yeah so coarse you could load the stuff by counting the pieces!
🤘🏼🤟🏽👍🏼
Thanks for commenting again on this re-upload.
Where can I find 6.5x52?
I would see who sells distributes PPU brand ammo in your area, PPU are the most likely brand of 6.5x52 you will find in stock. Norma is another manufacturer, but at a higher price.
Have done same to steel cased ammo very coarse sonlite powder be safe
What caliber did you see the similar powder in?
@@314299 6.5carcano steel cased on steel clips be blessed
the 160 grain wt of the projectile---and its length ==-----its not very aerodynamically stable --& tumbles easily --6 ,5 mm I have used on Hartebeest and Kudu ---Here in Zambia --sideways tumbling bullet does enormous damage on medium game at 150 yards---no wonder it blew a huge gaping hole in JFK ,S cranium ---no magic in this round!
Yes, most the "magic bullet" JFK types have extremely limited knowledge of the performance of bullets.
Given proper rifling twist such bullets are very stable in flight. Moreover, they yaw and tumble later in flesh than spitzer bullets of same caliber
Cruise missile!
They do have a similar shape .... good to hear from you, hope things are OK in your part of the world.