Schizophrenia Psychosis Awakening - Surviving Schizophrenia
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 เม.ย. 2024
- Hi everyone! I'm Stephen. I had an awakening from deep psychosis in schizophrenia in February 2014 after six months of clozapine (Clozaril) therapy. This occurred after two years of persistent psychosis and the failure of aripiprazole (Abilify), olanzapine (Zyprexa), and Latuda to lift the positive symptoms of schizophrenia. My dad and I discussed my awakening and the psychological issues that arose, including the persistent "negative symptoms" of depression and anxiety and the feeling of loss in my life.
Journey Through the Mind: Surviving and Thriving After Childhood-Onset Schizophrenia.
In this video, we dive into the raw and profound journey of Stephen, a courageous individual who grappled with the challenging circumstances of childhood-onset Schizophrenia. We will venture into his experience of falling ill with psychosis at the tender age of 12 and discuss how he emerged from the depths of this debilitating mental health disorder through sheer resilience and determination.
In February 2012, Stephen's life took a terrifying turn when he began to display symptoms of psychosis. In the next two years, his condition worsened into persistent psychosis, which saw him struggling with disordered thoughts, delusions, and hallucinations. Stephen's experience during these two years was marked by confusion, fear, and an overwhelming sense of alienation from reality.
To alleviate his condition, Stephen was treated with a series of antipsychotic medications, including aripiprazole (Abilify), olanzapine (Zyprexa), and Latuda. Unfortunately, these medications failed to mitigate the 'positive symptoms' of his Schizophrenia. This struggle and the apparent failure of the treatments brought about frustration and a deep sense of despair. The absence of progress left Stephen and his support system in a challenging and heartbreaking position.
However, in February 2014, after six months of clozapine (Clozaril) therapy, a glimmer of hope emerged. Stephen began to wake from the long sleep of psychosis that had haunted his teenage years. This was a turning point, a breath of relief, and the beginning of a new chapter in his life. Clozapine, the medication that ultimately proved effective for Stephen, is known for its potential to treat Schizophrenia when other medications have failed.
Yet, emerging from the clutches of deep psychosis was not without its psychological repercussions. Alongside Stephen's father, we unpacked the toll this journey took on Stephen's mental health. Notably, the persistent 'negative symptoms' of Schizophrenia lingered even after the positive symptoms had largely dissipated. The depression, anxiety, and an overwhelming feeling of loss posed their unique challenges as Stephen navigated his way toward recovery.
A significant portion of our discussion revolved around this feeling of loss. In many ways, Stephen had lost his childhood to Schizophrenia. The condition had stripped him of what is often considered the carefree years of one's life. Moreover, the loss was associated with the years he spent enveloped in psychosis, removed from the world around him.
However, our conversation was not just a recounting of struggle and loss. It was also about resilience, hope, and the power of effective treatment. Stephen's story is one of survival and, in many ways, victory. His journey offers hope for others who may be grappling with similar conditions. It demonstrates that recovery is possible while the road may be challenging and lengthy.
Stephen's journey through Schizophrenia underlines the need for persistent, individualized, and comprehensive mental health care. It also highlights the importance of a robust support system, with his father playing an instrumental role throughout the journey. It was an intimate exploration of their shared experience, the highs and lows, and the strength they found in each other.
The story of Stephen's battle and subsequent victory over childhood-onset Schizophrenia is essential. It shows the harsh realities of the condition, the strength of the human spirit, and the potential for recovery.
Thank you for joining us on this journey, and we hope it has illuminated the struggles and triumphs associated with Schizophrenia. As we continue our series on Surviving Schizophrenia, we look forward to sharing more stories, providing information, and fostering a sense of community for those affected by this condition.
Remember, no one is alone in their struggle. By sharing our stories, we can help reduce the stigma associated with mental health disorders and inspire hope for recovery and a brighter future.
Stay strong, and keep surviving.
Your Friend, Stephen.
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I am a psych nurse who had a brother with schizophrenia. I worked in hospitals first and then in community mental health with people with schizophrenia and am so impressed by your videos. Your relationship with your dad is amazing. The hardest part is getting people with this disease to accept their illness and to continue to take their medication. You are an inspiration and are going to help a lot of people.
Thank you Elaine for your very kind words. They inspire me!
How long one has to take these antipsychotic medicine..because these medicines can cause akathesia and cardiac arrest..why you didn't leave these ..
@@firstchoicetuber3757 good question! My son is in a Psychosis and I am also concerned about the meds side effects.
Seems society hasn’t yet learned to talk to someone with schizophrenia in the same way as we talk to someone with Alzheimer’s by meeting them where they’re at…
@@familyworth2try to identify all the stressors the person is struggling with from their perspective, and labeling it for them will allow them to feel validated thereby relieving putting those negative emotions to rest.
I lost my old life after the illness hit for me. I was doing well in college, had friends and lived a care free life feeling I could do anything. After getting psychosis by the end of my first year of college, I was fully dysfunctional and had to go back and live my parents, leaving my friends and old college life behind. I started living a lonely life after that barely going outside but now I've been picking myself up again. I'm on my third semester of college in a completely different part of the world now and going strong
Thank you very much for sharing Fran! That’s amazing that you are now going strong again! It is encouraging to me as well!
Are you on medication now?
Well done bro
@@SurvivingSchizophreniathank you for putting yourself out there to help us understand this condition a little better. You come across as a great human being. 🤩😇
Wow .. good for you . Stay positive and find your happiness
What a beautiful relationship of Stephen and his Dad. My brother in law had a mental break and was hospitalized. He was completely depleted of Vitamin D. It totally messed with his version of reality. He had to get injections of Vitamin D. He is doing better. I am so happy for Stephen and hope he continues to feel good. What a brave, handsome young man.
Unbalanced minerals/vitamins is often misdiagnosed as mental disorder…
@@vidaverde5047 Wow. I think doctors should start with bloodwork when stuff like this happens. My neighbors daughter went through the ringer, with counseling and they finally found she had a brain tumor.
I am so grateful and glad that you are talking about the grief aspect after coming out of psychosis. I was diagnosed with epilepsy at the age of 14 and it feels like I am stuck at the point in my life and cannot get past that because I've missed so many milestones and now I'm 30 constantly comparing myself to those around me and who have gone through all the milestones and it causes me a huge amount of internal pain. I thought that this was just me. I've been drinking diagnosed with depression and anxiety in the last few years as well and it's something I try to cope with everyday. It's hard because I am not the person who I was before epilepsy hit me. This video is extremely comforting to me. Thank you both very much and God bless you
Thank you very much for sharing and for your support.
Awesome relationship you and your Dad have! The hug.... tears. I wish I had the same support
Thank you, DJ, for joining us on this journey. Be well. Steve
U were chosen as many have been.... schizophrenics are important to our world. They see and hear and feel and even smell what the masses do not. Honest people..We honor ur path. Many great ones walked it before you.
My son has been ill with schizophrenia for the past 12 years and has tried many different medications, but continued to have a lot of symptoms. He's starting a trial of Clozapine this week, and I'm hopeful he'll finally get his life back.I'm very happy for you and I hope you continue to improve.
I wish you and your son the very best. Thank you for watching and sharing.
Good Morning Stephen, I am so glad that you have came so far. You are a very strong young man to have been through what you have been through and can talk openly about it. Your video have been good for me to get a better understanding to what it is to be schizophrenic and how to be supportive to a love one who has just been diagnosed. I’m so happy that I found your channel. I love to see how your parents have been there to support you through your journey.
Thank you very much, Dolores, for your support and gracious comments. Families need support and you are giving that to us. Thank you!
Wow!!😭😭 Thank you for sharing your story. Just dropped my son off at B-MED again. He was just diagnosed and i understand how lonely it can feel for the person suffering as well as the fanily. What a beautiful relationship you have. ❤️
Thank you. Best wishes for your son
I wish I had a dad like yours. So clear he loves and cares about you. Lucky!
I am deeply touched by your video Stephen. It has been a difficult journey since my son was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Thank you so much for helping break the stigma by sharing your story! Blessings to you and your father.
Thank you, Silvia, for joining us on this journey. Be well and stay in touch.
I am a mother with a son with severe schizophrenia. His first hospitalization was in August of 2010 at 18 years. He was on Risperadal but in the beginning went off it because he felt well again after taking it for a while. He became psychotic again and had to be hospitalized again. He went off again in 2012 when he went to massage school because he feared the medication would go through his hands onto the people he massaged. He had another psychotic episode but managed to go back qnd finish massage school. I took him to Toronto to a doctor who prescribed a meat diet , no carbs and vitamin therapy instead of Risperadal. Six months later he had another psychotic episode in January of 2014. The head psychiatrist of the community hospital at that time was sending the more severe ill patients to the state hospital which was a nightmare far beyond One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest or Snake Pit, more like the movie Shelter Island. The psychiatrist at the state hospital loaded my son up with Halidol at such a high dose that he had to shuffle to walk. The other patients were so heavily medicated they were like ghosts. It took five months to get my son out of there, even though they let him go home on the weekend for the last couple of months. He was discharged on monthly injections Risperadal which did not work so he was back in our community hospital behavioral science unit with another psychotic episode after a month. Risperadal no longer worked so the doctor decided on Clozaril. It took over a month to get him on a high enough dose for it to work. During that time my son was catatonic, unable to move, at one point on an IV and needing to be turned in bed because he couldn't move at all. The Clozaril eventually took effect and as soon as my son could walk and eat again the head psychiatrist insisted on sending him to a state hospital. We managed to have him sent to a different one which was much, much better. He was released to our care after three weeks. He was so much better on Clozaril, and Vraylar and an anti depressant was eventually added. He was still hospitalized every two months or 5 or 6 times a year when he would become distressed by the voices he heard, which can be quite bullying. My son does not have anosognosia. He knows he has schizophrenia. Nevertheless, he hears voices whom he believes are disembodied people. He is able to maintain many of his hobbies, writing music, playing the guitar, drawing, fishing and fly tying. He has made friends fishing. He often catches trout, bass and salmon from the huge lakes nearby. He sleeps 12 to 14 hours a day so does not work. After 10 years of being hospitalized, roughly every two months, he has now been home for 3 years without a hospitalization. He still hears voices that lead to poor judgment when he listens to them, so we still have a ways to go. Clozaril has been a tremendous help, though, in actually addressing his symptoms of schizophrenia rather than just tranqilizing him. I am grateful for the doctor who put him on it. I wish we had known about Clozaril from the start as it would have spared us all much pain.
Your dad is so supporting... you need a good support group when dealing with this ...
Stephen, you and your dad are just incredible. Thank you
Hi Stephen, your story is very inspirational. My son was diagnosed with schizophrenia 12 years ago, and it's been a really tough journey for him. He may be starting a trial of Clozapine in a couple of weeks, which we pray will lift him from his ongoing psychosis. Best of luck and take care.
Thank you!
Thank you so much for sharing this. In a few weeks, I will start as a researcher at a hospital in the Netherlands. The goal of the research is to predict if patients will be treatment resistant and should take clozapine immediately based on their DNA. It would be amazing if we could achieve this, as it might have saved Stephen some years of non-effective medication if we were able to make an accurate prediction based on his DNA. Thanks again, I will come back to this when I feel demotivated to remember why I am doing this. Love from the Netherlands!
Thank you for comment and good luck with your research!
WHOAH. 😲
I hope the research job is going well.
I truly admire you Sir, you are such an inspiring Father to your awesome Son, May God continue to bless you with abundant health and wisdom 🙏🏻
Steven gets his compassion from his dad and that helps them ..i live these humans ..such good humans
You can see the love this father has for his son. Quite beautiful.
Your family support is awesome, your doctors heroic. Steven I wish you the best outcomes in your journey. And I hope that your channel and productions help reduce the stigma associated with illness. I believe we have lost a good deal of our humanity in this modern rendition of our society. Let us all recognize the value of the spirit. All the best! Your dad is amazing. And so are you.
Thanks for the openness and clarity guys, i definitely feel the grief of a lost life personally, but it is a new challenge and a new life we can face. Wishing you and your family all the best, thanks once again
Thank you for sharing Dardan! I wish you the best as well
Shout out to Steve! Worlds greatest Dad!
Thank you for sharing 😊
LOVE this video, thank you!
My daughter has tried Olanzapine, Abilify, and Respidone. She had the worst psychosis while on Abilify. She’s now starting on Clozapine. We’re very hopeful. Thanks so much for sharing your story. This is very helpful.
Thank you for sharing and joining my journey!
Proud of you and your strength
Thank you for sharing all of this, it’s valuable to learn!
Thank you for this. I’m glad you mentioned the ptsd.
Thanks for sharing your story. I’m grateful for you sharing. Catching up on your videos.
I'm so glad to hear of your progress in your journey. I'm sorry for the time you have lost. It's really wonderful to see that you have support from your dad. Wishing you all the best
I appreciate you and your father being so open and honest about this illness. Your helping others deal with their own problems with their own journey with Schizophrenia.
You're both making changes in how people view this illness! You should both be very proud!!! ❤
You two have such a relationship that is so beautiful to watch. Your so strong. Thank you for making these vids❤
I look forward to your videos 💕 we are only six months into clozapine after suffering for 10 years. This information helps me alot so I know what to look forward to. Thank you
I love to see the caring and affection between the two of you. It’s very heartwarming.
Thank you for sharing your story. This gives me hope.
Your transparency and willingness to be vulnerable is an incredible blessing to those with Schizophrenia and to their support people. There are other mental illnesses that the person suffers same symptoms as Schizophrenia therefore your videos are reaching more people than you may be aware of. I will be sharing you to my friend, who's brother is Schizophrenic. Thank you so much!
You and your dad are amazing. Thank you for your channel. I’m sure you are helping thousands of people/families. ❤
Stephen is so lucky to have such a wonderful dad.
You guys are fantastic for sharing this. You are helping many people in many, many ways. Besides the benefit to other folks living through similar experiences, you are educating those of us with little or no knowledge of schizophrenia. Thank you for the blessing of your open generosity.
it is nice the affection you guys show each other considering what you all went through.
Sending you both love❤❤❤ You’re relationship and you both are incredible!!!!
What a difference you BOTH are making in others lives. Who knows what would have happened if you had never gotten sick, BUT you are teaching others in one of the BEST vlogs on TH-cam!!! Love you just the way you are. Love watching you guys.
Thank you and Great Job Men!! Blessings 🙏
Beautiful people and inspirational for all. Thank you both. Sending much love 💖💖💖
Hey Stephen! I write from Sao Paolo, Brazil.
My mom and my brother have the same ilness as you do.
I have learned a lot from your report.
You have a great dad and you are a wonderful young man.
Please keep up this wonderful channel.
All the best to you and your loved ones.
Márcio.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. We need to hear more from people in recovery, from both the people afflicted and the supporting family because it brings hope and inspiration to all those who are still suffering and cannot yet see the light. Congratulations on your successes!
Youguys are true love. Being very aware of your mind and body is sooooooo hard to do for people in general. But you have an amazing Dad that can truly teach you how to live the best way you can. So amazing and beautiful.
you guys have me teary eyed, to see the empathy and connection you two have for each other .It seems (ironic) that schizophrenia, brought you two closer than ever. You are doing an awesome job sharing ,your struggles ,milestones and achievements. You bring hope to so many people out there 7.72K subscribers and 20K views in one year!!!!WOW!
Thank you Stephen and Steve, for sharing and helping others! And what an AMAZING relationship you two have! I am sure it helps your healing process and also with your successful recovery. Good Bless!.
You two are great. Thanks for sharing your hearts with the world.
Excellent channel. Good for you. Thank you for creating this resource!!!🙏
Thank y'all for sharing. I hope the act of telling your story helps you as much as it helps others to hear it.
You are succeeding...keep going!!
what a great dad you have Stephen
Thank you so much!
Thank you for sharing, Stephen and Dad. You are very helpful to many people. I work in the field and I know how hard it has been for you. My patients are lovely individuals, the same as you are. Blessings. 🥀
stephen, great to find your channel. i myself take clozaril, along with other medications i wont further disclose. its done wonders for me man. as long as you stay on your meds things will only improve for the best. lots of love
Nick, thank you for joining my channel! It’s cool to meet someone else who takes Clozaril. This means a lot to me, Nick!
btw, im barely turning 27 this month. in my personal experience, it's been tough at some points, but theres a point where i feel like leaning more towards the light, and everything sort of becomes less of a storm. but ive realized that i sort of just have to see reality the way my own mental processing puts me through. but for all is well in my life now, and theres more for me to learn.. again, very glad i found your channel, ill be staying tuned. peace, love, and happiness
@@SurvivingSchizophrenia of course, good to hear.
You are an amazing loving father. God bless you!
I’m so sorry you are going through this, but it’s an amazing story!!! So interesting to me how you came to realize yourself. Hard to learn how to do human adult things after being in psychosis so long, but you’re doing phenomenally.
You are amazing Stephen. You are making a positive out of something that could be a negative. You are going to help so many people. What a light you are!
The best video yet. Totally touches on post psychosis and the reality of the illness. My son takes Envega injection and positive symptoms are gone, but still flat.
Thank you, Tamara, for joining us on this journey. Stephen's affect was flat for a long time. He has come back, but it has taken time. Be well and stay in touch.
Hello Stephen. I just want you to know how happy I am for you that you have awakened from psychosis and are doing well now. I can relate to your story and have been on a myriad of medications including some of the ones you've mentioned as well. I came out of psychosis a couple of years ago and have made many strides in my life. I am now a certified Peer Specialist, which is a person with lived experience with mental health challenges that provides support and advocacy for people in those same situations. What I've found that helped me heal the most is my belief in God. My earnest prayers and faith that I could get better and that He would protect me from all evil, danger and harm. I really love the fact that you are taking your experiences and turning them into a platform to break down the stigma associated with schizophrenia. More people suffer with it, than many know and there are many medications that do not work. It took 14 years and countless meds for me to find the medication that truly worked for my symptoms. I look forward to using your TH-cam channel as a resource in my new career. All the best.
I've personally seen many people who finally benefit from Clozapine when nothing else has worked. Glad to hear it has helped you. Others need to know there is always hope!
You two are brilliant teachers! Bravo, Stephen and Steve!! Sending you both much love and gratitude for the insight you bring to understanding Schizophrenia. I am hooked on your videos!
Great info! I know the strength and the struggle. Lots of love involved. ❤️
Wonderful. Love the video, a parents love and their un breakable family spirit! Steven, keep moving forward! Parents-you are the perfect parents for Steven!
Thank you very much for sharing your videos to increase an understanding of schizophrenia . It's very nice to meet you.
Good morning Steven, another great video! So thankful for your desire to shed light on schizophrenia. And so glad to hear about your journey back to reality. Keep up the good work...you give me hope for my son.
Thank you, Cheryl, for supporting Stephen. It means a lot to me. God speed!!
Thank you for your channel. Abilify, while hopeful, had a difficult effect after breaking up with my romantic girlfriend. Waking in the middle of the night, craving nicotine. My awareness of possible "wellness", started with olanzapine. Reduction in voices. Less delusional thinking, much better sleep. Way to go, guys!
I think it's therapeutic for you 2 to be talking about that difficult time and when you're talking about something difficult in the moment, you guys embrace each other. Not only is this perhaps making your bond even stronger, you're talking through traumatic events, dealing with them head on and at the same time helping other people not to feel alone and make others aware.
I found yer guy's channel a lil bit ago, and am just now saying how much I like it now , i think what you guy's are doing is great and is helpful for people like me with a recent pychosis diagnosis .
God bless you both. My nephew suffers with schizophrenia and he's in college. Thank God mathematics is a second language for him. It's extremely sad to watch him unable to connect. This is a fantastic uplifting video!!! I would love to hear you Stephen, talk about how you felt and what your thinking process was like when you was in the throws of the illness. Bless you and congratulations on your comeback!
Thank you both for this video and for sharing your experience.
I have so much respect for both of you. You are a very strong father-son duo! I’m so glad that you found out medication that works for you. I have been praying every day for two years that my friend will have the same experience. She is very ill with schizophrenia, but she hasn’t tried clozapine yet.
Thank you very much for sharing and for watching.
You are both amazing!
The TH-cam channel is amazing. So are Stephen and his Dad.
Society has all kinds of weird ideas about mental illness because 0f Hollywood and lack of education or the way they were brought up I am so glad you and your dad are helping to change the way people think
Your relationship inspiring.
Glad to hear you went through the process of awakening. You 2 have the most precious relationship. To watch you relate to each other feels like a gift. Thank you for these videos. Each one I watch touches my heart ❤
Thank you. I am so touched by your comment! Have a great rest of your day!
You both are AWESOME! Thanks for sharing your stories with others. AWESOME!!!
Thank you very much!
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. My daughter has been suffering from schizophrenia for 8 years now. She couldn't go on Clozapine because her neutraphil levels fluctuate and sometimes go below the threshold. Recently, there has been a change to treatment policy and with the review and approval of two haemotologists, people with low baseline neutraphil levels can have a trial of Clozapine. She is now just into her fourth week and is starting to show some small improvement. Very small but encouraging. It is inspiring to hear your story and we hope our daughter can recover as well.
Thank you very much for sharing! I hope your daughter recovers soon. Have a happy and healthy rest of your day!
Dr. Laitman has written a book on challenging people with lower neutrophils with continued use of Clozapine. I believe they used Lithium to help keep neutrophils up at a low dose.
Thank you. This is inspiring.
You are a good father. And well done Steven.
Thank you for this open descussion. You help a lot of people.
Thank you very much!
Congrats to both of you... it's so nice to see the familial love between father and son...
Thank you!
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I know it takes a lot for f courage and you are telling your story beautifully.
Hi Stephen,you are a great young man. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you!
You are a good example for a lot of peoples!!! Keep on going😊😊 look FORWARD!!!! And by the way i wish i had a Father just like yours❤
you guys rock! thanks so much again for your honesty and bravery.
Thank you! I really appreciate it!
Thank you for every thing you are doing to help people and families dealing with this disease. You and your father are doing a lot of good, Again thank you.
thank you for your video
Hi, my mom took her life earlier this year. I believe that she was misdiagnosed and she was not sharing a lot with me. Mom was ill with anxiety and depression when I was 17 over 30 years ago. She got ill again the end of last year but I didn't know what it was and then it hit me..but I never thought it would have been schizophrenia. All the symptoms are so similar. The first time she was ill for over 4 years which I know believe she was in a psychosis. We were left speechless and in great pain. Thank you for sharing. This video confirms to me that she was in a psychosis then and recently. God bless!
Much love. Trying to support a family member through your amazing videos
Thank you!
Amazing dad I just can’t get over the support during a hard time
My son also now in psychiatric ward with psychosis for the second time after he decided not to take his medication. It's hard to comprehend for a parent and do the right thing. Glad Steven is better and back in reality. It seems it is the hardest thing to do for schizophrenics to keep on taking their medication.
He can't stop the drugs coldturkey. But it should be his choice to take them or not. When so. is vulnerable to psychosis it's inevitable that a sudden withdrawal causes a new episode. Even the chance for people without psychosis-history ranges from 30-70% to contract a psychosis if stopped suddenly. You should offer him a slow taper if he wants to come off, it's 5-10% from the recent dose each months reduction. Get more info online for tapering. Psychiatrists sadly have not the right information to taper them off. It can take up to years. There's a yt channel called medicating normal for further information. Good luck to you and your son. There are many who recovered and sometimes it's easier to live with some positive symptoms than with the side effects.
@@kareendeveraux1847 This is an EXCELLENT comment and very educational! Thank you very much. I also saw your recent excellent post on another video (noise sensitivity) and want to let Stephen respond to that one before I do. I'm going to suggest to Stephen that we do a video response, in part, to your comment on that one as it materially contributes to what Stephen is trying to accomplish with his channel!
My son has schitzaphrenia and is on a depo injection and has other meds he is on a CTO community treatment order so if he refuses his mads his care co ordinator in the community can order my son back to hospital via mental health team I don't know if this will help
Meant to say MEDS A TYPING ERROR
The depo he has was because he wouldn't take his meds so the depo was for his main meds and the rest are pills ect
HAPPY Christmas Stephen!!!
Thank you! Merry Christmas!
Love you Stephen❤
Thanks for sharing.
You’re very welcome! Thank you! Have a happy and healthy rest of your day
Awesome father!
I would have like to hear Stephen talk more
Good happy story. Nice details
Great dad.
Thank you very much!
They've found that having no sugars or carbs leaves people with schizophrenia, symptom free. In the same way epileptics respond to a ketogenic diet. They've now since this finding, discovered many other psychiatric conditions respond positively to this. My husband had Schizophrenia Bi Polar Effective disorder. If I had k own that a strict Keto diet would've saved him. Its so sad. He hates any of the meds. You can find the research reports, its still very new.