As an atheist of the past 15+ years, these questions are some that I've asked so many people from different churches and I can say without a doubt that this is the most eye-opening set of answers I've ever heard. I have subscribed to your channel and have started watching many videos with an open mind and an open heart. Thank you for taking the time to do these.
Cookiecrusher08 Amazing, your more principled than many other atheist in keeping an open mind. I would include if your truly interested in these topics, C.S Lewis mere Christianity, the audio book is here online. Also inspiring philosophy is a TH-cam channel who is great at making difficult ideas digestible.
Cookiecrusher08 Hey friend! Just checking in to see how you’re doing. I prayed for you as you seek answers to your questions. Email me any time if you want to chat or need a friend! Smb.7520@gmail.com. :)
Cookiecrusher08 I will be glad to have a detailed discussion of this subject with you. Sadly, most people don't have good answers to these questions. Be Blessed.
I was spiritually abused for decades in a toxic church, left it already, but until now I don't know why that happened. I only wanted to serve God, but He allowed me to join that abusive church. It's a struggle, emotionally, but I chose to trust God all the way. This video made me cry hard. 😭 😭
There was a time of great tragedy and sorrow, and in those moments I turned my back on God and suffered alone. Many years later when I could go no further I cried out to God. I found joy in the morning, my life is full of blessings and everything that I had lost has been restored. Mike Winger, it all started when I began listening to your videos the way you explain things open my heart to the gospel again
My husband has a friend who is going through a horrible divorce. In the course of supporting him, my husband and I went to church with him. Neither of us were religious and both were angry at God for different reasons. Going to church changed me. If it weren’t for his divorce, I would still be lost and unsaved. This man wasn’t even my friend, but his suffering saved me.
That's interesting! It sounds like you believed in God before going to church, right? Because you said you were angry at God for various reasons? What were those reasons, if you don't mind me asking?
@@richiejourney1840 Just an attempt to understand people better 🙂 I find the idea of believing in but being angry with God interesting, specifically what it means to be angry with God and what it looks like. I'm not a believer myself, and I just find this kind of thing interesting, is all
There is a BIG difference between gifts and promises. We are NOT promised children who will grow up healthy, we are not promised spouses who will live as long as we do.. we are not promised the live-long use of our legs, our arms, our eyes..etc...is it not the ultimate vanity to _expect these things as if they are broken promises when they are removed??_ rather than being grateful for the time we had with these gifts? We ARE *promised* forgiveness of our sins, redemption and eternal life in Jesus Christ simply for _believing_ .. There _is_ hope, but only if we recognize we aren't due _anything in the first place_ and all the good we get is a _gift_ .
If someone had the clear ability to save your drowning child, yet simply stood by and watched your child die with zero effort to save her, i highly doubt you'd say "well he never PROMISED he wouldn't stand by and watch my child drown. My child wasn't ENTITLED to any effort to save her life." How does the lack of a prior promise absolve someone of any moral obligation to anyone else? That's absurd
@@jonathanjones770 Now lets say the "person" knows that this life is finite, and that beyond it is a place where suffering, pain, and etc do not exist and that is eternal. So how bad is that finite suffering when compared to a painless joyfilled eternity? While we may not like finite life being taken from us by any means it's only absolutely terrible if that eternal place does not exist.
@@JohnDoe-bt4ps suffering in any quantity is bad. Regardless of how much good occurs later, the fact remains that the person just stood by and watched as a child drowned to death for no reason.
@@person8064 what if that child drowning allowed both the child and the parent to experience eternal happiness. Is the child experiencing a small amount of pain worth the parent experiencing eternal happiness as well?
@@MikeWinger you are wrong in every aspect of this and it actually saddens me to hear this eye opening to anyone. Let me just debunk one thing out of the multitude you said. Moral evil is evidence for god. You argues moral is only understandable if god exists other wise we can do whatever we want. That is just not the case as subjective morality is still real and use objective measurements to determine the morality of the action. You contradicts yourself because all i really need to point out is that the argument is circular as well. Morality exists because god exists. god exists therefor morality must exits. neither prove the other. You haven't said one thing about morality being shown outside of the observer which is objective. Even if you did this would not get you to a god only a absolute morality but we havent even got that far. The best point to argue this is if you christian I only need to point to the moral failings of the bible such as slavery and you will twist yourselves to make it fit your current understand of morality. That would not have been the case 1000 years ago. it would have just been seen as not immoral at all. You would think it is though. Contradiction Morality has changed over time and not absolute then. that is different then what the bible preaches. Honestly i could go on but you can also just google the worst things written in the bible and read. You can also listen to the apologitcs to those versus but that is the thing. Why is there any confusion at all. Would a god have the power to clear this all up? yes. does he? no. then I am supposed to believe without evidence of thing. at no point in our lives would this be a good thing practicing this thinking. please watch some matt dillahunty or something because this is pretty awful apologetics.
@@MikeWinger The only problem with the doctrine of eternal punishment for the unsaved is that it’s unbiblical. The Bible says over and over that to have eternal life we must believe in Christ. Those who don’t believe in Christ *do not have eternal life* . Hell is eternal and the lake of fire is eternal, but not any particular visitor stays there forever. It says they die, face “destruction”, are “completely destroyed”, burn up like stubble, will not last, perish, “disappear like smoke”, etc. etc. It says we should “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Mat 10-28). Do people not know what the word “destroy” means? The only possible argument you could make is that false prophets go to Hell and continue to exist forever: Rev 20-10 “The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” But even there the beast and Devil and false prophet could be archetypes, because just a few verses later death and Hell are thrown in the lake of fire to burn forever. And there is ONE verse about those who blaspheme the Holt Spirit (covered later) but that is unclear. That’s the sum total evidence that the unsaved burn forever. Yep. That’s it. Counted against almost 100 verses that imply, or directly and emphatically say, the opposite. It’s easy to say “Oh people don’t like Hell so they deny it.” I agree that “wanting it to be true” isn’t evidence that it’s in the Bible. But “NOT WANTING IT TO BE TRUE” ... isn’t evidence it’s in the Bible either! Everlasting punishment for infinite time is simply not Biblical. Eternal life is. Not having eternal life means you don’t live forever. If you don’t live forever you cannot be tormented forever. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.” “..whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.” “..you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” “broad is the road that leads to destruction.. narrow the road that leads to life” “..the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” “Whoever sows to please their flesh.. will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit.. will reap eternal life.” “.. those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.” “..as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you” “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that ENDURES to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you” “For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!” “Whoever keeps commandments keeps their life, but whoever shows contempt for their ways will die.” “..we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” “..the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.” “..the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” “..They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.” (The opposite of lasting forever is not lasting forever.) “..for me and the gospel will.. receive a hundred times as much in this present age.. and in the age to come eternal life.” And in case it isn’t clear: “..will not forsake his faithful ones. Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed; the offspring of the wicked will perish.” Can we really argue that “perish” and “completely destroyed” are unclear? --- “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” This might say blaspheming the Holy Spirit does, but the age to come is not generally infinite time and often just means after death. Addressing those who go through the tribulation/apocalypse, the second death is used for the result of judgment after physical death (“second death” not “second live forever in endless torment”): Rev 2:10-11 I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. 11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. Rev 20:6 (still those alive during tribulation): Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years. Rev 20 (Judgment) 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (To, as we have seen: die, perish, be destroyed, be completely destroyed and perish, disappear like smoke, not last,
@@pfc_church It isn’t circular to say “If *you* believe in moral evil it is evidence for God”. Which is what he said. And it is evidence for God if someone believes in it. There must be a ground for value judgments. Most people dont think it is just popular opinion or personal opinion or preference. Therefore is evidence there is a deeper grounding.
@@ibperson7765 the ground is objective measurements. The result will always be subjective. Why? because context. Murder? Well how do u handle the trolly paradox? Lying? What if a lie saves lives. You can't say every everything u do is in harently right or wrong. You base whats write or wrong on objective measurements set to yout goals. Its why some people can persecute or even kill gay people and feel morally in the right. Their action is objectively measured to their goal. Next issue You dont get to start at God exist therefore morality exists while also saying morality exists therefore God. Thats the definition of circular. You have to either A: prove God exist; or B: prove objective morality exists. This does neither.
Wow, thank you very much for this teaching. Yes, I was lashing out at others in my pain. God is amazing & long suffering. He is healing my heart. I don't have to have the answers, only God knows all.
Mike.... I sooooo appreciate you. Pain and suffering is a biggie. I had a surgery 16 months ago that has left me in permanent pain. What do you do when it's not temporary? My heart is hard thinking God is for others and not with me. I shouldnt be circumstantial with my faith. I'm guilty. But I can't deny this circumstance has thrown me. I admit I have the anger you spoke about. I'm embarrassed. I love how you explained it. I so want to look at this and trust God and no he has me on a path and it will eventually be okay even if it means waiting until heaven. I've just been burned so many times by trusting people it's nearly impossible for me to trust. Especially in this critical thing. My left leg is basically ruined and I trusted people to get here and I should never have done it in the first place and I prayed so deeply before the surgery it just is crushing that this happen. The surgery was supposed to make me better and it made me 10 times worse. That's the rub. I put a lot of chips on this bet. I guess I shouldn't have. I'm a very tentative person because of my wiring and history. I'm sort of shell shocked. I think you are right about pride and narcissism. I think the world revolves around me because this isn't turning out the way I want it to. Yet I can't seem to help myself. I wish I had the energy to help others but instead I have no energy and I'm the one that needs comfort. Just not the way I envisioned it. I know I'm not alone with this sort of situation. So sorry for the long comment. U r awesome and I have learned a lot by watching your videos. I probably would not have found them if it were not for my situation. I can already start to list some things that I have learned. Due to the situation
My brother suffers debilitating pain all of the time. It affects his sleep, moods, and health. He has prayed but it has only gotten worse. Yet, he has more faith than I do. His abiding faith helps me get out of myself and back to God. I will pray that you have relief, as well as a deeper sense of God and His Love for you.
@@megalopolis2015 Thanks so much for your response! I'm just seeing it now. Two years late. Ha ha. talk about procrastination. I thank you deeply for your words and care and prayers. My leg pain is still there - but, over the last two years, HAS IMPROVED and so has my attitude. I'm so so so grateful. I just pray I now USE this for God and character and growth and to help others. Blessings to you !!!
@@HokageTrades Very very kind of you to inquire about my leg situation.. Thank you for caring. Get this, my leg pain is still there - however, over the last two years, it HAS IMPROVED and so has my attitude/perspective. I'm so so so grateful that I have had a measure of healing both physically and emotionally. the pain is still there. Daily. Every moment. But, it's a lower level pain and it is more manageable. Bottom line is, I can live with it even though it's not ideal. I pray I now USE this for God improvement and situation to build character/relationship and help others. I pray you BLESSINGS in every way for taking the time to ask a total stranger. That reflects a caring heart. YOU are a blessing.
Mike's speech was not logical. If God did exist, he would not sit by and allow so much harm in our world. No perfectly moral and all powerful person would do that.
@@whittfamily1he doesnt allow, why do you think people die? He's offered us a way out of this though through Jesus Christ otherwise we will be condemned to hell if we stay in our sins. He's given us this time to be forgiven through him
@@thesterrave S1: he doesnt allow, why do you think people die? GW1: If God did exist, he would not allow horrible harms, like the Holocaust. All people die eventually, but it is morally wrong to intentionally cause the death of another person or to allow that to happen when you could prevent or stop it. And so, if God were to allow the Holocaust, then he would be morally wrong. But, by definition God is perfectly moral. This is how we know that God does not exist. S1: He's offered us a way out of this though through Jesus Christ otherwise we will be condemned to hell if we stay in our sins. GW1: That is complete nonsense! First, if God did exist, he would never send anybody to eternal torment for their sins, as a punishment. That would be immoral. Secondly, God would never arrange for his own son to be tortured, humiliated, and murdered in order to set up an atonement. That would also be immoral. Thirdly, God would always justly punish people for their sins, not forgive them. So, you are mistaken on every point. S1: He's given us this time to be forgiven through him GW1: No. If God wanted to forgive anybody (he wouldn’t), then he would just say “I forgive you” and exempt them from punishment. That would be the end of it. He would not use his son as a scapegoat in an atonement system. That would be immoral.
When evil or good, suffering or pain, happens in my life, I always retrace my steps back to the love of God and find the answers in Jesus.When my bro was dying of cancer, he will say I never thought or would questioned: why me? I told him, because God wants you for himself.You'll see him.God is good and all is for his glory.
Hello Lola. Please accept my response knowing my heart is coming from grace and not rebuke. I would like to offer a reason to be hesitant about telling people who are ill that God wants them for Himself. While we don't know what to say at times to comfort those in need, we must approach these situations with truth. Pastor Mike covered pain and suffering very well however, he did not say that God takes people or causes sickness and death because He wants people; ie: "for work in Heaven" (which I've heard people say many times in my life). Yes, God wants all of us to be with Him one day but He is also eternal and self-sufficient; He doesn't need us for anything. We know sickness and death are ultimately because of a broken/fallen world, but now that we are under His grace, He deals with us in a different way. God does allow bad things to happen but it's important to remember He does not cause bad things to happen. You are absolutely correct, all is for God's glory, but please be careful about letting people think God causes or lets bad things happen because He wants them to be with Him. He is the God of life and His will is for all to be healed of every sickness, through faith, in believers in Jesus' name. God bless you Sister.
Hi Mike. Joe from Rhode Island here. I've been on a spitural hunt 'so to speak' and found your ministry and Tuesday's live chats since October (2018). Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday, and Happy New Year by the way... I saw last nights, New Years Day, Tuesday Live and enjoyed the message of "tatoos" and the division it creates and how to aprouch the bible in both the old and new testiments. After watching I found this lesson on the top of the "UP NEXT" area of TH-cam and decided to take the time to watch it. I've seen over 50 vids at this point since October. I feel compelled to thank you and let you know that I am on a path to healing and a humble return to God after a long time of a 'no realtionship' with Him for over 10 years. I thank Him because I think you have been a part of his plan with me. I thought you should know that. Thank you for all the work you must be doing in the back ground to do all of this while still working in your own church and being married etc. It feels like it must be a 24 hour job that you do. Although, I don't think you would call it a job. Thanks again and I look forward to watching more of the older vids I haven't seen and the future ones to come. Peace!
This was a great video. I totally revisited some thoughts I had when I was younger and shaking my fist at God and focusing on myself and my pain and not trusting God. I really did continue to hurt myself. Now looking back on it 10+ years later I still don't see. But I trust God now more than I ever did. And he gives me that peace I rejected so many times. I just pray and hope and have faith that the next time pain or moral evil comes that God will continue to mold me as I cling to Him and His promises.
@@homewardbound799 H: that's a lie. GW: Prove it. H: Don't believe it. GW: I believe it and everyone else should too. H: Praying for you, God to soften your heart, and remove the scales from your eyes. GW: That’s useless. As Dan Barker has said “Nothing fails like prayer.” GW: God does not exist, and this has been proven.
20:10 to 21:16 that small clip, just a hair over a minute long, opened up the book of Job to me, better than every single sermon, teaching, book, article, etc. I've ever heard or read combined. So often Preachers/Teachers speak about Job in the same ways that his friends did and accuse him of evil, and yet the whole point of God allowing all those things to happen was to show Satan that Job was righteous and would not sin. However, despite knowing that he had not sinned or done anything to incur God's judgment, and despite trusting God, and not charging God with wrongdoing, Job finally gets it when God appears and asks His questions. It is not Job's place to question God, and whilst he did not sin, nor charge God with wrong-doing, he realizes it is not for man to know everything that God does, and it is enough that we trust Him and abide.
@@whittfamily1 or it teaches that Satan would willingly destroy and murder if he thinks he can cause someone to fall. Which he does all the time. God was protecting Job and blessing him. Without God, we would all be dead. I'm very certain that God only allowed it in Job's case because he knew Job would be faithful despite the suffering and his story could be an example for billions of people. I don't believe God is regularly allowing Satan to cause suffering "in a bet" situation.
@@thadofalltrades TT: or it teaches that Satan would willingly destroy and murder if he thinks he can cause someone to fall. Which he does all the time. GW: No. Belief in Satan is just a superstition. If God did exist, he would not create Satan, or if he did create him, then he would destroy Satan after his first mischief. TT: God was protecting Job and blessing him. GW: No. In the story God was allowing Satan to cause major harms to Job. That is not protection. TT: Without God, we would all be dead. GW: False again. We are all alive without God. God does not exist. TT: I'm very certain that God only allowed it in Job's case because he knew Job would be faithful despite the suffering and his story could be an example for billions of people. GW: That is not a morally justified reason. Since God would be perfectly moral if he did exist, he would have a morally justified reason for everything he did and did not do. TT: I don't believe God is regularly allowing Satan to cause suffering "in a bet" situation. GW: “Regularly” does not matter here. If God did exist, Satan would not exist OR God would never make a bet with Satan, as described in the book of Job.
@@whittfamily1 the assertion that Satan would not exist if God existed is specious at best. How do you arrive at such a conclusion? God didn't create Satan as Satan, Satan made his own choices.
@@thadofalltrades TT: the assertion that Satan would not exist if God existed is specious at best. GW: No. It is a rational inference. TT: How do you arrive at such a conclusion? GW: It’s easy. If God did exist, he would be the all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly moral creator. Agree? Given those traits, he would never create a supernatural person who would cause major harms to human persons or tempt human persons to behave immorally. No way! TT: God didn't create Satan as Satan, Satan made his own choices. GW: But God would not allow the angel who became Satan to make choices to cause major harms to human persons or tempt human persons to behave immorally. No way! I don’t know why you can’t understand this. If God did exist, Satan would not exist. Also, there is no good evidence that Satan exists anyway.
This is a great message for our current times. Everyone needs to see it. Everyone is wanting to “fix” our country now and make it what they want it to be. Well that may not and likely won’t happen. We all know what a false peace for this world means! Praying for all of the lost and suffering souls in our world. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thank you Mike! I’m learning very slowly how to actually trust God. I was saved when I was about 6 or 7 yrs old (I think I was) but as I was growing up I did what I wanted;claiming that I am saved so either way I am going to Heaven… In my early 20’s I started having questions. At this point I had started taking God a little more seriously already. I haven’t received answers I was looking for (not the way I had hoped anyway). This led to frustration and even yelling at God. I am desperate to trust Him but I feel like sometimes my mind is so doubtful. This scares me to death but I cling to Jesus in hopes that He understands and doesn’t expect me to be completely on board intellectually with all this… idk what exactly I’m asking… I suppose I’m getting my story out there so people will pray for me. I am praying too. Thanks for listening. Praying for Him to change my heart and mind and to help me trust Him sincerely and NOT superficially…
In a sense, I have actually said “have my will be done” to God. Thinking my will should be His will and guess what? He gave it to me and I spent more then a decade dealing with the repercussions. Lesson learned... May God’s will be done!
Really got a lot out of this thank you so much. I've been so scared about the evil and where it came from. I will listen to this many times to get it firmly embedded in my mind and soul. Praise God for your teachings.
GOD allowed suffering in this current world. I try to remember WHO suffered the MOST, in this wicked and adulterous generation. HE DID. HE took ALL the suffering there ever was, on HIMSELF, on the cross. Dear GOD in heaven, have mercy on me, a sinner. The LORD giveth and the LORD taketh away. Blessed be the name of the LORD. (Job 1:21)
Gotta tell you I have the same problem with my own chewing habits. I often bite my lip to the point of drawing blood. I now feel a little better knowing I am not alone.
You are the ministry of God I thank you in the name of Jesus christ. God will certainly reward you. Keep going to teach the right lessons like you are doing . May Grace be upon you bro.
As far as a one liner answer it is as simple to me as this: God didn't want robots, he wanted beings who made the choice to love Him. PS. I didn't mean in any way that I didn't value your whole video! I absolutely appreciate and agree. And that comes from someone who has been through some fire.
@@ReasonedAnswers No, i didn't mean no ABILITY to commit evil and cause suffering. Obviously free will precludes that ability. What I'm asking is if it's possible for there to exist a population of beings who possess free will but who never choose to commit evil acts
@@jonathanjones770 _"if it's possible for there to exist a population of beings who possess free will but who never choose to commit evil acts"_ No, I don't think it is possible to create a population of free creatures of any significant size such that none of them chose to exercise their ability to do evil.
Have to say...Roman's 5:3-5. Helps me greatly as a believer too. Where is says suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, character produces hope........
What great insight you have. Thanks for your ministry I have schizoaffective disorder that was a result of a mental break, over the yrs, I never doubted God's goodness but often wondered why this happened to me. I even asked some therapists if it could have been a result of my past use of drugs. My main drug of choice was cannabis I was listening to a psychiatrist who mentioned that Marijuana can induce psychosis even yrs. afterwards I had an ahah moment that finally answered my question I used the stuff almost daily and didn't know the ramifications So sorry I touched it but even though it did permament damage I'm thankful that I was a believer before this incident happened and as a result became closer to the Lord
I would say that I haven’t had an easy life in a variety of ways, and yet I have also experienced many blessings, however my most intimate, close, and life sobering times were through the difficulties and seeing Gods hand on a multiple occasions intervene in my life ( not always the way I expected or how I would have liked it, yet in a better alternative) but in a powerful way. He’s also brought good out of evil and it at times it took years to look in hindsight to understand those circumstances and why God had allowed these times. I’m very great-full for what he has brought me through. I believe one of the factors that wether you are a believer or not, life doesn’t guarantee comfort or a painless life. We arrogantly forget this at times. However in the midst of this, God does promise that he will not forsake us in those times when we look to him. I can certainly testify to this.
I have to say, I really absolutely commend you on your efforts and these amazing videos that you share! I can only hope that God would use me the same. The video on the ‘mother God’ followers helped me to answer questions for those who follow that cult as well!!! This video is just so simple, beautiful and easy to understand!! THANK YOU AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR FAITHFULNESS AND OBEDIENCE TO GOD!!! 🙏🙌🙌🙌
It’s surprising how no one can see how we are on earth to experience what God is going through. He created his children and they decide to run after idols and do their own thing. God feels hurt for good reasons so he teaches them a few lessons but they die without repenting. So God experiences grief for loosing His children forever. Then He sends his son to die for us so that we understand how far He’s willing to go to draw us back to Him. How can we understand even a fraction of what God is going through if we don’t have children, if we don’t get upset that they don’t listen, if we don’t discipline them or if we don’t grieve if we go through loss? We are here to realise what we mean to God. We are not an accident in the middle of the universe. He loves us and wants us to come back to Him through our Lord Jesus Christ. Our experiences have meaning...
Feel like having a family will bring true joy and happiness im trying to put it all into christ but man this is difficult its hard being alone in a house and looking at families it stings a little and seeing post online like my kids are my everything im like man must be nice here I am trying all new hobbies and change my ways to get a true joy but its not happening idk why
@@caviestcaveman8691 having a family doesn’t necessarily bring happiness. At least it’s not the happiness i expected. But it allowed me to understand certain things about the Bible and I gained a different sensitivity while reading the scriptures. At this point in time I read and understand the Bible very differently from when I was single without children. It’s a process I believe. It might seem strange to you but once you understand why you are in this world and why Jesus came time just doesn’t matter anymore and things just fall into place. Once you get there you will realize happiness is much more simple than you thought.
I think God had to allow a lot in my life to reach me. I had trouble knowing he was a loving God and trusting him fully. I didnt have the earthly example of a loving father and could not comprehend his love and trust him. He has allowed my husband walking out on me and 3 little children, my son has severe ADHD(he is 30 now and still in trouble with the law), daughter with ADHD, I havent seen a daughter in say 4 years. My children treat me as though I am their enemy. My parents are narcissistic and my 3 siblings, whom I have had to detach from because you are always the victim of their cruel behaviour. I've had cancer twice in the last 6 years. I have alienated myself from friends who are takers. I left work due to my cancer, so no family, no friends and a new husband. God certainly got my attention more because I was at the end of myself. I have grown so much now though. From my fears of what if to just believe and trust him, no matter what and give thanks in all things. For he is working all things together for good to those that love him
@@sjsupa this is a twisted comment what you have said. We are in an imperfect world and there are all sorts of illnesses and problems. God didn't give me ADHD children to teach me a lesson. Trials bring us closer to God that is what I said. He is ultimately working everything together for good to those who love him. This life is not the end.
@@kim09031957 OK，but you still haven't answer my question. Why do you think your ADHD children should suffer? Oh, you said Imperfect world, so the illness happens naturally. A perfect God created a imperfect world? Who is doing the twisting?
I too have struggled with this question, as I am sure most of us have. Another way I try to look at this is; What if we were put here to suffer so that we could appreciate God's presence and Holiness once we move on. Maybe evil is just the absence of God - maybe the purpose to see which of us choose to hate darkness and come into the light. Maybe some of us need more darker moments to come out of the darkness of this world. Just another thought. Absence makes the heart grow fonder kind of idea :) Love your videos - I am trying to watch them all! I do agree that sometimes we need to suffer - maybe to help make us feel. But God is there to comfort us too. I went through a rough relationship in the past. My ex cheated on me while I was 7 months pregnant, and he actually was staying with this woman. I was laying on my bed sobbing. I was inconsolable. I could not sleep or eat. As I was sobbing, I was writing out my thoughts to God - I was hoping he could see my thoughts I wrote them. All of a sudden, I felt as though someone was rubbing my back - I was the only one home. I felt comforted and fell asleep. I like to think this was Jesus comforting me. I eventually met my husband who I've been married now to for over 15 years. Everything happens for a reason, but know that Jesus/God will comfort us when it's too much.
For me personally evil is just not a problem. Especially when I know I will be with Christ in eternity. But this is very helpful for when someone brings these objections to me.
I've only just began the video, but I can say outright that most atheists don't say "the presence of evil means there's no god." The argument goes something more like, "If there is a god, he can't be omnipotent, or he can't be benevolent." The choice is pretty clear. Either the god CAN prevent evil, and doesn't (not benevolent), or he can't prevent evil (not omnipotent), in which case why should we even call him a god?
Some fundamental questions concerning your post: 1) how is "evil" defined, and what/who determines what "evil" is? Christian Answer: God defines and determines what "evil" is. He sets the standards for goodness/holiness/righteousness, as well as for what is evil (anything opposed to what God commands via His Law). 2) who sets the standard for what "love" (benevolence) is? Christian Answer: again, God ALONE sets the standard of what His love is, as well as how humans are to think, speak, and behave. Anything outside of His standard is not "love," but "evil". Jn. 3:16 gives us the 'how' of God's demonstration of love. 3) why does God 'allow' evil in His creation? Christian Answer: the word "allow" can only be used of the Omniprescient, Omnipotent [Triune] God of Scripture in a temporal context. In eternity, however, God decisively decreed 'whatsoever would come to pass in time in His creation'...and that includes the wickedness of Satan, by whom the creation and creatures fell from their original, holy state. So, God's omnipotence is maintained because He is a God of PURPOSE (even for evil, God has a purpose); and He is benevolent in the sense that all those who believe in His Son Jesus Christ would not perish (by the Law, and under the condemnation of it) but would have eternal life (impeccable, and without deception, falsehoods and lies). Just a short answer. *Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 I don't consider special pleading as a serious argument. If your god gets to redefine anything in our out of existence just so he keeps his status, then why even bother? "Well, /this/ genocide isn't evil because god says it's okay." Not even worth arguing.
God doesn't "redefine" stuff; He gives the proper definitions of terms, and provides the proper context for all the He does. For example, the damnation of the wicked and unbelieving in the eschatological judgement is justified because God is the ultimate Lawgiver, Judge, and executioner of all who fall short of the perfection that His Law demands. It's not too difficult to understand.
Enjoyed the teaching. I think there is a general principle that man stepped away from God and it is man that caused evil and only God's love and mercy that will intervene at times, if we seek him, to cause some good to result from a situation. But we should limit thoughts that God allows evil in order to bring good out of it. It is man's free will that causes evil and God's love that softens the impact,
Mike, I love that at 9:27 your stomach totally tells you, krispy Creme please right after you mentioned it. I think our stomach may have free will also... Awesome video, great content. Looking forward to more.
42:15 I'd also add in the context of that specific verse, the main good that comes is we are made increasingly like Jesus. Through suffering, trials, and tests. Those in Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of the son, ehp 1:4. We are marked in him when we hear the gospel, humble ourselves, cry out for mercy, and believe. Those who are in Christ will become like him through obediance or discipline (hebrews 12), because God has predestined those who freely believe, to that end. So in the context he's saying no matter how it looks or feels, if you are in Christ and love God, he will work all things together for your good. So we grow and become one in tree body and mind of Christ. Reacting to life as he did, matt 5-8. The answer was right just wanted to add that point to maybe be a little clearer on that verse. ❤
Bethany is an incredible parent and person. She caught a wave last year or the year before that was so big it would literally drown anyone reading this. She’s a big wave rider. Look her up. Solid Christian.
Thank you for your comfort and wisdom, Pastor Mike. They are much appreciated. Bless you. Is there possibly another reason also for the evil in this world? A choice made a long time ago came with "the knowledge of good and evil". I can't imagine a better life for teaching us about good and evil, both externally and internally. Be careful what you wish for ...
I believed a lie that my father molested me as a child. Because of it, I had serious daddy issues and tried to cope with men. Because of this, I had two children out of wedlock. My second child’s father abused me physically and emotionally. Because of this, once I left him, I stopped chasing men because I was broken by them. Because of this, I met my husband who needed a woman to not cling to him the way previous women who hurt him had. Because of this, in His perfect timing, the Lord revealed Himself to us both at the same time and changed our lives forever. There is so much more to our stories, but the point is that during the hard times, there was hopelessness. But the hard times happened and ultimately led us to a promised treasure in Heaven with our Creator. Hallelujah!
I once found a parakeet, stranded and alone in the city. Definitely not in a place where it was supposed to be. Presumably, its wings were clipped because it couldn't fly off the ground. I took it home to care for it, earning its trust on the way. We thought it may belong to someone, so I put up flyers so that they could call me. In the couple days I had it at home, my little brother played with it, not understanding that whatever he was doing was terrifying and potentially harmful to the bird. For the entire rest of the week, that parakeet was afraid of us. Nothing I did seemed to change that. I had planned to take it to a friend's house where it would be happier and healthier. However, on the day I was going to do that, about a week after I first found it, I found it lying dead, hiding in the corner of our yard. It died of hunger, alone and too scared to eat. There was no lesson I could've learned from this. I had no goal of learning to care for parakeets. Clearly, this didn't have too big of an effect on its owner because no one called. Had it lived for one more day, it could've lived a happy life. But that didn't happen. Why did that happen the way it did? What could God have hoped to gain from that? How can God possibly be glorified in the suffering and death of that parakeet? And don't say, "Well, God must've had a plan you can't see," Because that's simply an invalid argument.
thoughts on some of the arguments in this video: 1. saying you need god for morality is not a fact. whether you agree with them or not there are a lot of arguments for secular morality. so it’s wrong to say that atheists can’t call something immoral. 2. saying evil is a consequence of free will is not a good argument. god could have created a world with free will that doesn’t have evil. isn’t that what heaven is supposed to be? 3. god knew before the creation of everything that humans would fall and all the suffering that would come with it. if he didn’t create everything, he could have avoided all the suffering and avoided all the people that would reject him. isn’t he then responsible for that suffering and for all those people going to hell? and if he could not avoid those things, doesn’t that mean god is limited and not all powerful? finally, saying atheists can not provide comfort to suffering people is wrong. you can comfort people by being there for them and supporting them in their need.
Counting it all Joy is not my strong suit. Still, prayer is for all things, including painful and confusing situations. I believe/help me with my unbelief is one of my most prevslent prayers. God bless you in your growing ministry.
I think the biggest issue I have with this question, is that it doesn’t go deep enough. To say “we’re not robots” in response to the problem of evil is entirely frustrating. Why is Free Will so important? If it is better to objectively be with God, and he knows that and he is totally good, why would he create a world in which I have the option to not be with him? Who does that serve? It doesn’t serve me, cause I objectively would be happier without that choice: it must serve God in some way then. But God doesn’t need does he? Does he gain something from us that he needs? No. So why create us, and then create us to fall? If the highest good that can come of my free Will is that I love God, why not just create me without the option to choose otherwise? Further, why is there even a choice between sin and no sin? Why does sin even exist? Why not a world in which we can use our free Will to choose only good things? You could say that then goodness as we know it wouldn’t exist. That evil is necessary if there is goodness. But why? Why not a world in which God continually revealed himself in greater degrees of goodness to man? That there is good, and less good. Less good doesn’t need to mean evil, why can’t it simply mean less good? Finally, stating that love is the highest good and love requires choice, is like saying that empathy is a higher good and empathy requires suffering. Wouldn’t any rational person, if given the choice, say “do away with suffering even at the cost of empathy”? If God is omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent and totally satisfied in himself - why would he need love? Or even if he did need love, wouldn’t he be more perfect creating man without the ability to burn in hell, KNOWING that he chose to receive “love without choice” instead of “love with choice”? This is all even assuming that the sovereignty of God coexists with our free Will, which is another paradoxical issue. I am a deeply questioning Christian, perhaps even agnostic at this point. Evil doesn’t disprove God, but it makes it very unlikely that he is what classical theists have claimed. I have nothing against Mike or anyone who engages in theodicy. But these surface answers don’t get to the real issues. At the end of the day, all I’ve been told is to simply rely on “I don’t know, God must be good though” And I don’t know how to do that
Do you follow Jordan Peterson? If not I highly recommend his work, he has wrestled with exactly what you describe here for years and has finally come to his conclusion. Also I seem to remember C.S. Lewis covers this free will topic. Other than that I think reading the book of Hebrews, John and Romans gives a very full picture of the 'heart' of this matter. I wish you well Gabe 😊
Couldn't help but notice that you used some of Tim Keller's points from Walking with God through Pain. I absolutely love that book! Fantastic message and delivery, as always. Thanks Mike!
@@MikeWinger Maybe! We are all prone to confirmation bias, and other such ways of thinking that lead us astray. This is why we need to try to "catch ourselves" doing these things. We need to be particularly careful about our beliefs when we want them to be true. And more than anything else we need to make sure we are not cheating to avoid losing. And I'm sorry for this next bit sounding so harsh, but I've never seen a Christian not cheat to avoid losing. That includes yourself.
@@bjhcvuaerpigfyWe believe in a transcendent reality greater than anything that can be empirically known. There is substantial evidence but it’s known experientially AFTER you come to faith in Jesus. That’s the barrier for entry for scores of people throughout history. It’s understandable to a degree to desire evidence but still the trap that many fall into when it isn’t presented the way that they want. God owes no man an explanation but He’s also been good and faithful to provide what’s needed. He also doesn’t answer to any human demand based on our subjective standards.
@@josephjimorris evolution never selected for finding out the truth: only for avoiding being wrong. You are walking on the savannahs in Africa and you hear a rustling in the bushes. It could just be the wind or it might be a lion. To find out the truth you would go over to the bushes and investigate. To avoid being wrong you would just assume it's a lion and runaway. Evolution selects for the second option not the first. Christian's aren't interested in finding out the truth buy investigating, they are just trying to avoid being wrong, they just run away.
These are some good ways of approaching the problem of pain. With all due respect.. I’d like to add one more... the promise of justice. I was raised in the Church and thought I knew the Lord. But as I grew older, this problem of pain became the root and cause of MANY more problems I found myself facing: depression, anger, anxiety, isolation, addiction, and so on. I could not find any good explanation for why a “good” God would allow all of the evil, injustice, and sadness I saw all around me. After years of this depression, right when I was ready to throw in the towel, He delivered me from this false view and the lies about who He is... Mike mentions these atheists that claim they are going to shake their fist at God (I’ve heard a few myself); I’ve never heard anything so foolish.. so outlandish!! When the Lord’s presence came near me that night... I didn’t see anything, nor could I have, my face was on the ground! None can stand, not even Isaiah, “Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.” Isaiah 6:5, or John: “When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,” Revelation 1:16 Make no mistake: God will not be mocked, He IS justice, He IS vengeance, He IS our vindicator, and He IS the righteous judge of the wicked- “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”” Romans 12:19 How would He be a just God to allow Hitler to escape answering for the murder millions by sticking a gun in his mouth, or by allowing Stalin to shake his fist at Him on his deathbed after killing millions of his own people, Ted Bundy and others who terrified, raped, and murdered dozens of women, deranged perverts who abuse children in all sorts of terrible fashions, nor of any of the horrible people who’ve done you and I wrong? They have their chance now to seek forgiveness while they still can. In the end, all will be set straight, nobody gets away with anything... I’m counting on it. “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.” Hebrews 9:27-28 “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy...” James 4:12 Gal. 6:7, Deut. 32:35, Rev. 1:12-16, Is. 33:22, Gen. 30:6, Ps. 7:8, Is. 50:8, Rom. 8:33, Deut. 32:36, Luke 18:7, Is. 54:17, Ps. 50:6, 1 Sam. 24:15, Micah 4:3, and on, and on, and on. If someone were to say they don’t have much use for the Bible, rejecting His graceful forgiveness, they ought to know that God has plans for them in there as well.
Chris, what makes you think that men like Hitler and Stalin did the horrible things they did with the intention of mocking God, or "shaking their fist," as it were?
Joshua Holton I don’t think that Hitler or Stalin did these things to specifically, mock God; at least I’ve never thought or heard that to be the reason. I just mentioned the “God will not be mocked” verse from Gal. 6:7 to kind of suggest that He does see what is going on... He isn’t oblivious or ignorant. Now whether someone pays for their crimes in this life or not, they will still face a just Judge, to whom all is transparent. As far as shaking their fists... I meant that both literally and as an analogy. Stalin’s daughter, Svetlana, has often commented on her father’s final moments before death and has suggested that his final act was to raise his hand and shake it at the sky, or point his finger in this manner. He was unable to talk in this condition, so nobody is sure this is what he meant to convey, it is just her personal opinion.
@@chrisbrower9532 Interesting. When I was a Christian, I remember getting some small degree of consolation from the idea that there would be ultimate justice. But since then, I've come to see a problem with the notion, and was discussing with a good Catholic friend of mine. Hell is a place of unending torment. And though it's gratifying to think Hitler and Stalin will burn for a while, the punishment is incapable of matching the crime. Think about it. You've been in heaven for so long, you've forgotten how many thousands of years have scrolled by, and for a moment, you spare a thought for those who didn't believe. Looking down, you can see them, still burning, the light having left their eyes millennia ago, still gurgling out what tormented screams they can. And this has not yet begun for them. All this time is as the blink of an eye on the eternity that is their suffering. At some point, I don't know when, I'd start to feel bad for them. Even if it was ten thousand years. Even if it was a thousand years for every gypsy, Jew, and homosexual that was murdered by the Third Reich. But God's just getting started. Hell is not just. It cannot be. How can a god that devised this cesspit of unending sorrow be good? It is the height of vindictiveness to fashion such a place.
Joshua Holton with all due respect to your friend (and I admit, not knowing what he/she actually believes), asking a Roman Catholic about hell isn’t the advised place to start, given they (in general) believe in purgatory. Furthermore, not even all “Christians” are in agreement about hell being “eternal conscious torment” or rather an amount of time deemed just for their works and eventual “annihilation”. With that caveat and for discussion’s sake, let’s assume “eternal conscious torment” theology. I think the common mistake is to equate ‘eternity’ as basically, an unlimited amount of time. This is not the case. Eternity could be better explained as the absence of time. There is no time as we experience it here; it is simply a state of being. You are correct though, in the sense that no amount of punishment will ever be able to match the crime... not only to the victims, but even more so importantly (and even less possible), the offense done to Him. To think that hell is God’s ‘personal torture chamber’ is really at the root of the error here. He does not revel in people’s suffering, but is instead patient and pleads for the repentance of man. “Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back (change your way of thinking), turn back [in repentance] from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’” Ezekiel 33:11 “The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 Finally, there’s the glaring, obvious fallacy in your epistemology (the method for how you find what is truth), that being that it is somehow dependent on how you feel or your opinion of the matter; your opinion (or even mine) are irrelevant as to whether God would “send” someone to hell. It doesn’t matter in any case; it doesn’t make it true or false. We can go on with the error in thinking along this line as well, if we want. God doesn’t “send” people to hell in the sense that it is against someone’s will to do so. In fact, C.S. Lewis says something to the effect that “hell is a door locked from the inside”. Hell is the absence of God’s presence and every goodness that is included in that. So if He sends you out of His presence because of your sin- you are in effect, eternally separated from Him, and THAT is the real horror of hell. Not the punishment of pain, but of finally meeting the entire purpose of your life and the complete fulfillment of it, in Him! “And then I will declare to them publicly, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM M E [you are banished from My presence], YOU WHO ACT WICKEDLY [disregarding My commands].’” Matthew 7:23 Don’t give up the faith so easily, man! I find it easier in trusting Jesus to be who He said He was: our Redeemer AND our just and fair Judge, than to squint my eyes shut and deny the reality of our situation... especially without Him! I let a lot of these questions bother me for a long time also, but the answers are all there, if you look for them... it’s nothing that every person hasn’t been bothered by or asked about. Best of luck =)
@@chrisbrower9532 Chris Brower Well spoken, Chris. I'm pleased by your appeal to epistemology. Spot on. But speaking of epistemological flaws... Christians not being in agreement on the nature of Hell also doesn't change the fact that one of them is right, and one of them is wrong...or they are both wrong. Opinions on the matter do not make one of them true. Roman Catholic, Protestant, or any other denomination, the consensus is that Hell is a place of punishment for the wicked. Be it eternal fire, or darkness, or separation from God, it is a punishment that's unending. When we are offered eternal life, do you think that it's not really eternal life, it's just life outside of time? Either way, immortality in the presence of God is the promise, and the inverse is presented for those who aren't believers, making the difference between eternity and being outside of time semantic. Quoting Ezekiel here is non-productive. He is prophesying concerning the polytheistic proclivities of Israel. If he were alive, he's be asking you why you're using his quotes out of context. As for 2 Peter, that certainly seems more relevant. But the argument that "a thousand years is as a day" carries about as much weight as "please be patient, God doesn't own a clock." In cults and faiths the world over, leaders have used such language to mask failed fulfillment of prophecy. It's been two thousand very real, very blood-soaked years. At what point does humanity's patience reach a terminus? When I had stated that I would begin to feel bad for the damned, that wasn't my argument, per se 🙂. The point I was making is that we can recognize that an action is immoral based on our conscience. That recognition that a position (eternal punishment) is Draconian is what drives my argument, not the underlying emotion. You are correct when you say our feelings on the matter don't make a case. But in matters of morality, they provide the waypoints by which we judge actions, and by extension, morality. I see that an eternal punishment is manifestly unjust, and the argument isn't "I'm upset at the injustice", it's "I see plainly that this is unjust". That's a value judgment. Yes, taking lives from people is one of the highest crimes one can commit, but at least those people's suffering ends with death (unless they disbelieve, then the misery's just getting started). I know you stated that Hell might not be eternal, and that it might not be super burn-y. But Christian consensus seems to have settled on the Lake of Fire in Revelation as being synonymous with Hell. And dropping a No True Scotsman on that won't change the fact that therein lies the majority position when it comes to Hell. If you have personally adopted a less severe theology when it comes to Hell, I'd be happy to address that separately.
Do it in one easy step: Ask them how they are defining evil outside of their own personal feelings in the first place, and from where they are deriving the moral authority to call it evil.
Simple, Does it diminish human well-being? Does it improve happiness? If it harms, then it is morally wrong. If it helps, then it is morally good. Humans experience emotions, and we can measure these emotions. It isn't subjective to say that murder causes unjust suffering on the victim, but also on the family and friends of them. It also isn't subjective to say that surviving the murder and healing brings satisfaction to both the victim and their friends and family as they are still together.
@@iMidnightStorm This is a terrible answer to that question. What do you mean by "wellbeing" and "happiness"? More importantly why do you consider them to be "good" things? Who says they're good? What if one persons happiness requires or causes another persons sadness? What if one person experiences MORE happiness than another by having their basic needs met? You've created a subjective "utility monster" that has no objective foundation. How do you scientifically measure wellbeing? How can you conclusively say that your murder analogy actually results in MORE wellbeing one way or another? What if your murderer enjoys murder and benefits from it so much that it creates more happiness and wellbeing in the system by allowing the murders to happen? I get the feeling you chose murder because you know it is objectively wrong even if there are benefits to wellbeing and happiness. This is where your reply REALLY falls apart. You actually DO agree that there are things that are objectively wrong.
@@lizzard13666 In general, yes, morality is by all accounts subjective and is dependent on upbringing and other external factors. The thing that differs, is that there is an objective that can be drawn from this subjective position. If one tribe derives satisfaction from the ruthless slaughtering of those not within their tribe, and is surrounded by neighboring tribes that view this belief as a threat to their way of life, so the only solution to the problem is to exterminate this one tribe to preserve their way of life. The subjective claim that "murder is wrong" can be made into an objective assertion. "Outlawing murder contributes to a peaceful, flourishing society." Everything including what we ought, or ought not do, is based on an agreed upon social standard that is drilled into us during our upbringing. Pretty much every claim about morality can be broken down into a subjective view of the world based on the way they were raised.
@@iMidnightStorm In no way is your assertion objective. Are you the one who decides what "peaceful" and "flourishing" are defined as? You are also being a little speciesist in your assertion, because who decided that human flourishing in this manner was better than the flourishing of any other species, or rocks for that matter? Why is it a good thing to break down and repurpose rocks into tools so that humans can "flourish" whatever you happen to presuppose that to mean? Why SHOULD humans have any special privilege over any other material construct? Your foundation is subjective, and the terms you use to define by seem pretty subjective and ill-defined as well.
you are helping me a lot Mike. thank you
As an atheist of the past 15+ years, these questions are some that I've asked so many people from different churches and I can say without a doubt that this is the most eye-opening set of answers I've ever heard. I have subscribed to your channel and have started watching many videos with an open mind and an open heart. Thank you for taking the time to do these.
Cookiecrusher08
Amazing, your more principled than many other atheist in keeping an open mind.
I would include if your truly interested in these topics, C.S Lewis mere Christianity, the audio book is here online. Also inspiring philosophy is a TH-cam channel who is great at making difficult ideas digestible.
Thank you! I will for sure look into those. I sure appreciate you taking the time to send those to me:)
Cookiecrusher08 Hey friend! Just checking in to see how you’re doing. I prayed for you as you seek answers to your questions. Email me any time if you want to chat or need a friend! Smb.7520@gmail.com. :)
Cookiecrusher08 I will be glad to have a detailed discussion of this subject with you. Sadly, most people don't have good answers to these questions. Be Blessed.
Cookiecrusher08 th-cam.com/video/N0f0Nlnl_2A/w-d-xo.html
I was spiritually abused for decades in a toxic church, left it already, but until now I don't know why that happened. I only wanted to serve God, but He allowed me to join that abusive church. It's a struggle, emotionally, but I chose to trust God all the way. This video made me cry hard. 😭 😭
Give yourself time.
It’s not your fault.
I feel you.
There was a time of great tragedy and sorrow, and in those moments I turned my back on God and suffered alone. Many years later when I could go no further I cried out to God. I found joy in the morning, my life is full of blessings and everything that I had lost has been restored. Mike Winger, it all started when I began listening to your videos the way you explain things open my heart to the gospel again
No need to suffer alone. There are atheists who would be compassionate with you. God does not exist, and this has now been proven.
Nearly 4 years later & I needed this, I needed that prayer too. Thank you for that.
My husband has a friend who is going through a horrible divorce. In the course of supporting him, my husband and I went to church with him. Neither of us were religious and both were angry at God for different reasons. Going to church changed me. If it weren’t for his divorce, I would still be lost and unsaved. This man wasn’t even my friend, but his suffering saved me.
That's interesting! It sounds like you believed in God before going to church, right? Because you said you were angry at God for various reasons? What were those reasons, if you don't mind me asking?
Oh my. The goodness of God is amazing.
@@IndyB23what are your reasons for asking?
@@richiejourney1840 Just an attempt to understand people better 🙂 I find the idea of believing in but being angry with God interesting, specifically what it means to be angry with God and what it looks like. I'm not a believer myself, and I just find this kind of thing interesting, is all
@@IndyB23yeah…sounds like a play out of an atheists manual to me.
Suffering always brings me closer to God. It just shows me how much I need God
There is a BIG difference between gifts and promises. We are NOT promised children who will grow up healthy, we are not promised spouses who will live as long as we do.. we are not promised the live-long use of our legs, our arms, our eyes..etc...is it not the ultimate vanity to _expect these things as if they are broken promises when they are removed??_ rather than being grateful for the time we had with these gifts? We ARE *promised* forgiveness of our sins, redemption and eternal life in Jesus Christ simply for _believing_ .. There _is_ hope, but only if we recognize we aren't due _anything in the first place_ and all the good we get is a _gift_ .
If someone had the clear ability to save your drowning child, yet simply stood by and watched your child die with zero effort to save her, i highly doubt you'd say "well he never PROMISED he wouldn't stand by and watch my child drown. My child wasn't ENTITLED to any effort to save her life."
How does the lack of a prior promise absolve someone of any moral obligation to anyone else? That's absurd
@@jonathanjones770
Now lets say the "person" knows that this life is finite, and that beyond it is a place where suffering, pain, and etc do not exist and that is eternal.
So how bad is that finite suffering when compared to a painless joyfilled eternity? While we may not like finite life being taken from us by any means it's only absolutely terrible if that eternal place does not exist.
@@JohnDoe-bt4ps suffering in any quantity is bad. Regardless of how much good occurs later, the fact remains that the person just stood by and watched as a child drowned to death for no reason.
Amen
@@person8064 what if that child drowning allowed both the child and the parent to experience eternal happiness. Is the child experiencing a small amount of pain worth the parent experiencing eternal happiness as well?
That was a great video Mike. I pray that everyone who needs to hear that message will find this video.
+kevin wynn thank you Kevin. Me too
@@MikeWinger you are wrong in every aspect of this and it actually saddens me to hear this eye opening to anyone. Let me just debunk one thing out of the multitude you said. Moral evil is evidence for god. You argues moral is only understandable if god exists other wise we can do whatever we want. That is just not the case as subjective morality is still real and use objective measurements to determine the morality of the action. You contradicts yourself because all i really need to point out is that the argument is circular as well. Morality exists because god exists. god exists therefor morality must exits. neither prove the other. You haven't said one thing about morality being shown outside of the observer which is objective. Even if you did this would not get you to a god only a absolute morality but we havent even got that far. The best point to argue this is if you christian I only need to point to the moral failings of the bible such as slavery and you will twist yourselves to make it fit your current understand of morality. That would not have been the case 1000 years ago. it would have just been seen as not immoral at all. You would think it is though. Contradiction Morality has changed over time and not absolute then. that is different then what the bible preaches. Honestly i could go on but you can also just google the worst things written in the bible and read. You can also listen to the apologitcs to those versus but that is the thing. Why is there any confusion at all. Would a god have the power to clear this all up? yes. does he? no. then I am supposed to believe without evidence of thing. at no point in our lives would this be a good thing practicing this thinking. please watch some matt dillahunty or something because this is pretty awful apologetics.
@@MikeWinger The only problem with the doctrine of eternal punishment for the unsaved is that it’s unbiblical.
The Bible says over and over that to have eternal life we must believe in Christ. Those who don’t believe in Christ *do not have eternal life* . Hell is eternal and the lake of fire is eternal, but not any particular visitor stays there forever. It says they die, face “destruction”, are “completely destroyed”, burn up like stubble, will not last, perish, “disappear like smoke”, etc. etc.
It says we should “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Mat 10-28). Do people not know what the word “destroy” means?
The only possible argument you could make is that false prophets go to Hell and continue to exist forever: Rev 20-10 “The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” But even there the beast and Devil and false prophet could be archetypes, because just a few verses later death and Hell are thrown in the lake of fire to burn forever. And there is ONE verse about those who blaspheme the Holt Spirit (covered later) but that is unclear.
That’s the sum total evidence that the unsaved burn forever. Yep. That’s it. Counted against almost 100 verses that imply, or directly and emphatically say, the opposite.
It’s easy to say “Oh people don’t like Hell so they deny it.” I agree that “wanting it to be true” isn’t evidence that it’s in the Bible. But “NOT WANTING IT TO BE TRUE” ... isn’t evidence it’s in the Bible either! Everlasting punishment for infinite time is simply not Biblical. Eternal life is. Not having eternal life means you don’t live forever. If you don’t live forever you cannot be tormented forever.
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”
“..whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.”
“..you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”
“broad is the road that leads to destruction.. narrow the road that leads to life”
“..the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
“Whoever sows to please their flesh.. will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit.. will reap eternal life.”
“.. those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”
“..as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
“Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you”
“Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that ENDURES to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you”
“For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!”
“Whoever keeps commandments keeps their life, but whoever shows contempt for their ways will die.”
“..we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”
“..the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
“..the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.”
“..They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.”
(The opposite of lasting forever is not lasting forever.)
“..for me and the gospel will.. receive a hundred times as much in this present age.. and in the age to come eternal life.”
And in case it isn’t clear:
“..will not forsake his faithful ones. Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed; the offspring of the wicked will perish.”
Can we really argue that “perish” and “completely destroyed” are unclear?
---
“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” This might say blaspheming the Holy Spirit does, but the age to come is not generally infinite time and often just means after death.
Addressing those who go through the tribulation/apocalypse, the second death is used for the result of judgment after physical death (“second death” not “second live forever in endless torment”):
Rev 2:10-11
I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. 11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
Rev 20:6 (still those alive during tribulation):
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
Rev 20 (Judgment)
14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
(To, as we have seen: die, perish, be destroyed, be completely destroyed and perish, disappear like smoke, not last,
@@pfc_church It isn’t circular to say “If *you* believe in moral evil it is evidence for God”. Which is what he said.
And it is evidence for God if someone believes in it. There must be a ground for value judgments. Most people dont think it is just popular opinion or personal opinion or preference. Therefore is evidence there is a deeper grounding.
@@ibperson7765 the ground is objective measurements. The result will always be subjective. Why? because context. Murder? Well how do u handle the trolly paradox? Lying? What if a lie saves lives. You can't say every everything u do is in harently right or wrong. You base whats write or wrong on objective measurements set to yout goals. Its why some people can persecute or even kill gay people and feel morally in the right. Their action is objectively measured to their goal.
Next issue
You dont get to start at God exist therefore morality exists while also saying morality exists therefore God. Thats the definition of circular. You have to either A: prove God exist; or B: prove objective morality exists.
This does neither.
Wow, thank you very much for this teaching. Yes, I was lashing out at others in my pain. God is amazing & long suffering. He is healing my heart. I don't have to have the answers, only God knows all.
Never, ever stop expecting answers. Anyone who does not want you to ask questions is not your friend.
Mike.... I sooooo appreciate you. Pain and suffering is a biggie. I had a surgery 16 months ago that has left me in permanent pain. What do you do when it's not temporary? My heart is hard thinking God is for others and not with me. I shouldnt be circumstantial with my faith. I'm guilty. But I can't deny this circumstance has thrown me. I admit I have the anger you spoke about. I'm embarrassed. I love how you explained it. I so want to look at this and trust God and no he has me on a path and it will eventually be okay even if it means waiting until heaven. I've just been burned so many times by trusting people it's nearly impossible for me to trust. Especially in this critical thing. My left leg is basically ruined and I trusted people to get here and I should never have done it in the first place and I prayed so deeply before the surgery it just is crushing that this happen. The surgery was supposed to make me better and it made me 10 times worse. That's the rub. I put a lot of chips on this bet. I guess I shouldn't have. I'm a very tentative person because of my wiring and history. I'm sort of shell shocked. I think you are right about pride and narcissism. I think the world revolves around me because this isn't turning out the way I want it to. Yet I can't seem to help myself. I wish I had the energy to help others but instead I have no energy and I'm the one that needs comfort. Just not the way I envisioned it. I know I'm not alone with this sort of situation. So sorry for the long comment. U r awesome and I have learned a lot by watching your videos. I probably would not have found them if it were not for my situation. I can already start to list some things that I have learned. Due to the situation
My brother suffers debilitating pain all of the time. It affects his sleep, moods, and health. He has prayed but it has only gotten worse. Yet, he has more faith than I do. His abiding faith helps me get out of myself and back to God. I will pray that you have relief, as well as a deeper sense of God and His Love for you.
hey any update on ur situation?
@@megalopolis2015 Thanks so much for your response! I'm just seeing it now. Two years late. Ha ha. talk about procrastination. I thank you deeply for your words and care and prayers. My leg pain is still there - but, over the last two years, HAS IMPROVED and so has my attitude. I'm so so so grateful. I just pray I now USE this for God and character and growth and to help others. Blessings to you !!!
@@HokageTrades Very very kind of you to inquire about my leg situation.. Thank you for caring. Get this, my leg pain is still there - however, over the last two years, it HAS IMPROVED and so has my attitude/perspective. I'm so so so grateful that I have had a measure of healing both physically and emotionally. the pain is still there. Daily. Every moment. But, it's a lower level pain and it is more manageable. Bottom line is, I can live with it even though it's not ideal. I pray I now USE this for God improvement and situation to build character/relationship and help others. I pray you BLESSINGS in every way for taking the time to ask a total stranger. That reflects a caring heart. YOU are a blessing.
@@infomercialguy thats so good to hear, God is good indeed. Glad your situation is improving :)
I needed this teaching. My heart is shattered my eyes are on Him
There is nothing there to see!
you really helped me. I'm in a pit of pain and grief. your logical speech is comforting.
😢
Mike's speech was not logical. If God did exist, he would not sit by and allow so much harm in our world. No perfectly moral and all powerful person would do that.
@@whittfamily1he doesnt allow, why do you think people die? He's offered us a way out of this though through Jesus Christ otherwise we will be condemned to hell if we stay in our sins. He's given us this time to be forgiven through him
@@thesterrave S1: he doesnt allow, why do you think people die?
GW1: If God did exist, he would not allow horrible harms, like the Holocaust. All people die eventually, but it is morally wrong to intentionally cause the death of another person or to allow that to happen when you could prevent or stop it. And so, if God were to allow the Holocaust, then he would be morally wrong. But, by definition God is perfectly moral. This is how we know that God does not exist.
S1: He's offered us a way out of this though through Jesus Christ otherwise we will be condemned to hell if we stay in our sins.
GW1: That is complete nonsense! First, if God did exist, he would never send anybody to eternal torment for their sins, as a punishment. That would be immoral. Secondly, God would never arrange for his own son to be tortured, humiliated, and murdered in order to set up an atonement. That would also be immoral. Thirdly, God would always justly punish people for their sins, not forgive them. So, you are mistaken on every point.
S1: He's given us this time to be forgiven through him
GW1: No. If God wanted to forgive anybody (he wouldn’t), then he would just say “I forgive you” and exempt them from punishment. That would be the end of it. He would not use his son as a scapegoat in an atonement system. That would be immoral.
@@thesterrave then why did he not cure my mom's cancer in Jan?....
When evil or good, suffering or pain, happens in my life, I always retrace my steps back to the love of God and find the answers in Jesus.When my bro was dying of cancer, he will say I never thought or would questioned: why me? I told him, because God wants you for himself.You'll see him.God is good and all is for his glory.
Hello Lola. Please accept my response knowing my heart is coming from grace and not rebuke. I would like to offer a reason to be hesitant about telling people who are ill that God wants them for Himself. While we don't know what to say at times to comfort those in need, we must approach these situations with truth. Pastor Mike covered pain and suffering very well however, he did not say that God takes people or causes sickness and death because He wants people; ie: "for work in Heaven" (which I've heard people say many times in my life). Yes, God wants all of us to be with Him one day but He is also eternal and self-sufficient; He doesn't need us for anything. We know sickness and death are ultimately because of a broken/fallen world, but now that we are under His grace, He deals with us in a different way. God does allow bad things to happen but it's important to remember He does not cause bad things to happen. You are absolutely correct, all is for God's glory, but please be careful about letting people think God causes or lets bad things happen because He wants them to be with Him. He is the God of life and His will is for all to be healed of every sickness, through faith, in believers in Jesus' name. God bless you Sister.
Bs. God Doesn't exist
Hi Mike. Joe from Rhode Island here. I've been on a spitural hunt 'so to speak' and found your ministry and Tuesday's live chats since October (2018). Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday, and Happy New Year by the way... I saw last nights, New Years Day, Tuesday Live and enjoyed the message of "tatoos" and the division it creates and how to aprouch the bible in both the old and new testiments. After watching I found this lesson on the top of the "UP NEXT" area of TH-cam and decided to take the time to watch it. I've seen over 50 vids at this point since October. I feel compelled to thank you and let you know that I am on a path to healing and a humble return to God after a long time of a 'no realtionship' with Him for over 10 years. I thank Him because I think you have been a part of his plan with me. I thought you should know that. Thank you for all the work you must be doing in the back ground to do all of this while still working in your own church and being married etc. It feels like it must be a 24 hour job that you do. Although, I don't think you would call it a job. Thanks again and I look forward to watching more of the older vids I haven't seen and the future ones to come. Peace!
God bless you Josef!
This was a great video. I totally revisited some thoughts I had when I was younger and shaking my fist at God and focusing on myself and my pain and not trusting God. I really did continue to hurt myself. Now looking back on it 10+ years later I still don't see. But I trust God now more than I ever did. And he gives me that peace I rejected so many times. I just pray and hope and have faith that the next time pain or moral evil comes that God will continue to mold me as I cling to Him and His promises.
Most of the pain, suffering, harm, and loss you do experience wouldn't happen, if God did exist. He would prevent it.
@@whittfamily1 that's a lie. Don't believe it. Praying for you, God to soften your heart, and remove the scales from your eyes.
@@homewardbound799 H: that's a lie.
GW: Prove it.
H: Don't believe it.
GW: I believe it and everyone else should too.
H: Praying for you, God to soften your heart, and remove the scales from your eyes.
GW: That’s useless. As Dan Barker has said “Nothing fails like prayer.”
GW: God does not exist, and this has been proven.
What a wonderful sermon Pastor. I cannot even explain how it impacted me. Thank you Lord. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
20:10 to 21:16 that small clip, just a hair over a minute long, opened up the book of Job to me, better than every single sermon, teaching, book, article, etc. I've ever heard or read combined.
So often Preachers/Teachers speak about Job in the same ways that his friends did and accuse him of evil, and yet the whole point of God allowing all those things to happen was to show Satan that Job was righteous and would not sin.
However, despite knowing that he had not sinned or done anything to incur God's judgment, and despite trusting God, and not charging God with wrongdoing, Job finally gets it when God appears and asks His questions. It is not Job's place to question God, and whilst he did not sin, nor charge God with wrong-doing, he realizes it is not for man to know everything that God does, and it is enough that we trust Him and abide.
Job is a terrible book. It teaches that God would allow suffering to engage in a bet with Satan. If God did exist, that would never happen.
@@whittfamily1 or it teaches that Satan would willingly destroy and murder if he thinks he can cause someone to fall. Which he does all the time. God was protecting Job and blessing him. Without God, we would all be dead. I'm very certain that God only allowed it in Job's case because he knew Job would be faithful despite the suffering and his story could be an example for billions of people. I don't believe God is regularly allowing Satan to cause suffering "in a bet" situation.
@@thadofalltrades
TT: or it teaches that Satan would willingly destroy and murder if he thinks he can cause someone to fall. Which he does all the time.
GW: No. Belief in Satan is just a superstition. If God did exist, he would not create Satan, or if he did create him, then he would destroy Satan after his first mischief.
TT: God was protecting Job and blessing him.
GW: No. In the story God was allowing Satan to cause major harms to Job. That is not protection.
TT: Without God, we would all be dead.
GW: False again. We are all alive without God. God does not exist.
TT: I'm very certain that God only allowed it in Job's case because he knew Job would be faithful despite the suffering and his story could be an example for billions of people.
GW: That is not a morally justified reason. Since God would be perfectly moral if he did exist, he would have a morally justified reason for everything he did and did not do.
TT: I don't believe God is regularly allowing Satan to cause suffering "in a bet" situation.
GW: “Regularly” does not matter here. If God did exist, Satan would not exist OR God would never make a bet with Satan, as described in the book of Job.
@@whittfamily1 the assertion that Satan would not exist if God existed is specious at best. How do you arrive at such a conclusion? God didn't create Satan as Satan, Satan made his own choices.
@@thadofalltrades
TT: the assertion that Satan would not exist if God existed is specious at best.
GW: No. It is a rational inference.
TT: How do you arrive at such a conclusion?
GW: It’s easy. If God did exist, he would be the all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly moral creator. Agree? Given those traits, he would never create a supernatural person who would cause major harms to human persons or tempt human persons to behave immorally. No way!
TT: God didn't create Satan as Satan, Satan made his own choices.
GW: But God would not allow the angel who became Satan to make choices to cause major harms to human persons or tempt human persons to behave immorally. No way! I don’t know why you can’t understand this. If God did exist, Satan would not exist. Also, there is no good evidence that Satan exists anyway.
This needs to be talked about more because it's a big issue with many. Thank you, Mike!
this teaching reached me in my heart, thank you Mike! the holy spirit is working through you. God blessings brother in Christ Jesus.
Thank you Mike. Your teaching is soo helpful for hurting melievrrs in Christ who simply don’t understand His ways. Thank you
This is a great message for our current times. Everyone needs to see it. Everyone is wanting to “fix” our country now and make it what they want it to be. Well that may not and likely won’t happen. We all know what a false peace for this world means! Praying for all of the lost and suffering souls in our world. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thank you Mike! I’m learning very slowly how to actually trust God. I was saved when I was about 6 or 7 yrs old (I think I was) but as I was growing up I did what I wanted;claiming that I am saved so either way I am going to Heaven…
In my early 20’s I started having questions. At this point I had started taking God a little more seriously already. I haven’t received answers I was looking for (not the way I had hoped anyway). This led to frustration and even yelling at God. I am desperate to trust Him but I feel like sometimes my mind is so doubtful. This scares me to death but I cling to Jesus in hopes that He understands and doesn’t expect me to be completely on board intellectually with all this… idk what exactly I’m asking… I suppose I’m getting my story out there so people will pray for me. I am praying too. Thanks for listening. Praying for Him to change my heart and mind and to help me trust Him sincerely and NOT superficially…
In a sense, I have actually said “have my will be done” to God. Thinking my will should be His will and guess what? He gave it to me and I spent more then a decade dealing with the repercussions.
Lesson learned... May God’s will be done!
You are brave
Evil is not a thing, it's the absence of The thing. It's a moving away from Good, from God.
Really got a lot out of this thank you so much. I've been so scared about the evil and where it came from. I will listen to this many times to get it firmly embedded in my mind and soul. Praise God for your teachings.
Wow, this was powerful. I always learn so much for you Pastor Mike. God bless you many! 🕊🙏🏼❤️
GOD allowed suffering in this current world. I try to remember WHO suffered the MOST, in this wicked and adulterous generation.
HE DID. HE took ALL the suffering there ever was, on HIMSELF, on the cross. Dear GOD in heaven, have mercy on me, a sinner.
The LORD giveth and the LORD taketh away. Blessed be the name of the LORD. (Job 1:21)
Great lesson.
+SenorTqco thank you
Oh my goodness...Mike your explanation revisited my life and deeply this message is one that should hit hard. Amen to you and God bless
You have been an amazing help on my journey to find christ, thank you so much🙏
wow... amen Pastor Mike. I love your sermons
Life is our school, the gospel is our answers, prayers are our communication to God, Holy Ghost is a truthful guide from God.
the emotional side of pain....this probably shows the most human side, of you.....ergo....a true Pastor...
May GOD BLESS YOU IN ABUNDANCE
Thank you for your incredibly thoughtful and incredibly intelligent response to the emotional problem. Keep on keeping on
Gotta tell you I have the same problem with my own chewing habits. I often bite my lip to the point of drawing blood. I now feel a little better knowing I am not alone.
You are the ministry of God I thank you in the name of Jesus christ. God will certainly reward you. Keep going to teach the right lessons like you are doing . May Grace be upon you bro.
Thank you Mike for your videos. The Lord uses you wonderfully! God bless you dear brother!
As far as a one liner answer it is as simple to me as this: God didn't want robots, he wanted beings who made the choice to love Him. PS. I didn't mean in any way that I didn't value your whole video! I absolutely appreciate and agree. And that comes from someone who has been through some fire.
Is it impossible for a population of beings to exist with no suffering or evil yet still with free will?
@@jonathanjones770 Yes, free will necessarily includes the ability to do evil and evil necessarily ceates suffering.
@@ReasonedAnswers
No, i didn't mean no ABILITY to commit evil and cause suffering. Obviously free will precludes that ability. What I'm asking is if it's possible for there to exist a population of beings who possess free will but who never choose to commit evil acts
@@jonathanjones770 _"if it's possible for there to exist a population of beings who possess free will but who never choose to commit evil acts"_ No, I don't think it is possible to create a population of free creatures of any significant size such that none of them chose to exercise their ability to do evil.
@@ReasonedAnswershow do?
Have to say...Roman's 5:3-5. Helps me greatly as a believer too. Where is says suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, character produces hope........
I just learned about this channel. This is really helpful. God bless you.
Thank you so much Mike. We enjoy your ministry everyday. Blessings from Canada.
What great insight you have. Thanks for your ministry I have schizoaffective disorder that was a result of a mental
break, over the yrs, I never doubted God's goodness but often wondered
why this happened to me. I even asked
some therapists if it could have been a
result of my past use of drugs. My main
drug of choice was cannabis I was listening to a psychiatrist who mentioned that Marijuana can induce
psychosis even yrs. afterwards I had
an ahah moment that finally answered
my question I used the stuff almost
daily and didn't know the ramifications
So sorry I touched it but even though
it did permament damage I'm thankful
that I was a believer before this incident happened and as a result became closer to the Lord
Great video! I’ll definitely be using some of the points for an apologetic series I’m constructing for my young adults group at church.
40:26 - Such a great point, yet so simple.
I would say that I haven’t had an easy life in a variety of ways, and yet I have also experienced many blessings, however my most intimate, close, and life sobering times were through the difficulties and seeing Gods hand on a multiple occasions intervene in my life ( not always the way I expected or how I would have liked it, yet in a better alternative) but in a powerful way. He’s also brought good out of evil and it at times it took years to look in hindsight to understand those circumstances and why God had allowed these times. I’m very great-full for what he has brought me through. I believe one of the factors that wether you are a believer or not, life doesn’t guarantee comfort or a painless life. We arrogantly forget this at times. However in the midst of this, God does promise that he will not forsake us in those times when we look to him. I can certainly testify to this.
Amen Only God knows the big picture but we know trials are all about trust growing in faith-perseverance and endurance.
Hebrews 11:6
James 1:12
The BIG picture… oh boy can’t wait… why did that innocent child need bone cancer???? This should be good!!!!
I just came across you yesterday. Thank you what a blessing you are!
Spot on, brother Mike!
Beautiful, beautiful song at the end there Pastor Mike. Thank you for adding that. 😌🌹🙏🏽
I have to say, I really absolutely commend you on your efforts and these amazing videos that you share! I can only hope that God would use me the same. The video on the ‘mother God’ followers helped me to answer questions for those who follow that cult as well!!! This video is just so simple, beautiful and easy to understand!! THANK YOU AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR FAITHFULNESS AND OBEDIENCE TO GOD!!! 🙏🙌🙌🙌
Thank you for this video God bless you.
Great answer regarding evil and it came because of free choice
Mike thank-you so much for your teaching!
Amen. God is good.
It’s surprising how no one can see how we are on earth to experience what God is going through. He created his children and they decide to run after idols and do their own thing. God feels hurt for good reasons so he teaches them a few lessons but they die without repenting. So God experiences grief for loosing His children forever. Then He sends his son to die for us so that we understand how far He’s willing to go to draw us back to Him.
How can we understand even a fraction of what God is going through if we don’t have children, if we don’t get upset that they don’t listen, if we don’t discipline them or if we don’t grieve if we go through loss?
We are here to realise what we mean to God. We are not an accident in the middle of the universe. He loves us and wants us to come back to Him through our Lord Jesus Christ. Our experiences have meaning...
Feel like having a family will bring true joy and happiness im trying to put it all into christ but man this is difficult its hard being alone in a house and looking at families it stings a little and seeing post online like my kids are my everything im like man must be nice here I am trying all new hobbies and change my ways to get a true joy but its not happening idk why
@@caviestcaveman8691 having a family doesn’t necessarily bring happiness. At least it’s not the happiness i expected. But it allowed me to understand certain things about the Bible and I gained a different sensitivity while reading the scriptures. At this point in time I read and understand the Bible very differently from when I was single without children. It’s a process I believe. It might seem strange to you but once you understand why you are in this world and why Jesus came time just doesn’t matter anymore and things just fall into place. Once you get there you will realize happiness is much more simple than you thought.
@@redinsart oh I know it just would be nice for a change
our Father also feels pain and sorrow 😩 forgive us Father. You are worthy
Thank you.
Thank you, though this was from years ago, it always applies and I have been struggling in this area as of lately.
I think God had to allow a lot in my life to reach me. I had trouble knowing he was a loving God and trusting him fully. I didnt have the earthly example of a loving father and could not comprehend his love and trust him. He has allowed my husband walking out on me and 3 little children, my son has severe ADHD(he is 30 now and still in trouble with the law), daughter with ADHD, I havent seen a daughter in say 4 years. My children treat me as though I am their enemy. My parents are narcissistic and my 3 siblings, whom I have had to detach from because you are always the victim of their cruel behaviour. I've had cancer twice in the last 6 years. I have alienated myself from friends who are takers. I left work due to my cancer, so no family, no friends and a new husband. God certainly got my attention more because I was at the end of myself. I have grown so much now though. From my fears of what if to just believe and trust him, no matter what and give thanks in all things. For he is working all things together for good to those that love him
So, why do you think your ADHD children should suffer? They suffer to in order to teach you a lesson? What a cruel God.
@@sjsupa this is a twisted comment what you have said. We are in an imperfect world and there are all sorts of illnesses and problems. God didn't give me ADHD children to teach me a lesson. Trials bring us closer to God that is what I said. He is ultimately working everything together for good to those who love him. This life is not the end.
@@kim09031957 OK，but you still haven't answer my question. Why do you think your ADHD children should suffer? Oh, you said Imperfect world, so the illness happens naturally. A perfect God created a imperfect world? Who is doing the twisting?
I too have struggled with this question, as I am sure most of us have. Another way I try to look at this is; What if we were put here to suffer so that we could appreciate God's presence and Holiness once we move on. Maybe evil is just the absence of God - maybe the purpose to see which of us choose to hate darkness and come into the light. Maybe some of us need more darker moments to come out of the darkness of this world. Just another thought. Absence makes the heart grow fonder kind of idea :) Love your videos - I am trying to watch them all!
I do agree that sometimes we need to suffer - maybe to help make us feel. But God is there to comfort us too. I went through a rough relationship in the past. My ex cheated on me while I was 7 months pregnant, and he actually was staying with this woman. I was laying on my bed sobbing. I was inconsolable. I could not sleep or eat. As I was sobbing, I was writing out my thoughts to God - I was hoping he could see my thoughts I wrote them. All of a sudden, I felt as though someone was rubbing my back - I was the only one home. I felt comforted and fell asleep. I like to think this was Jesus comforting me.
I eventually met my husband who I've been married now to for over 15 years. Everything happens for a reason, but know that Jesus/God will comfort us when it's too much.
For me personally evil is just not a problem. Especially when I know I will be with Christ in eternity. But this is very helpful for when someone brings these objections to me.
So 40 years of abuse…. No biggie in the long run
I've only just began the video, but I can say outright that most atheists don't say "the presence of evil means there's no god."
The argument goes something more like, "If there is a god, he can't be omnipotent, or he can't be benevolent."
The choice is pretty clear. Either the god CAN prevent evil, and doesn't (not benevolent), or he can't prevent evil (not omnipotent), in which case why should we even call him a god?
Some fundamental questions concerning your post:
1) how is "evil" defined, and what/who determines what "evil" is?
Christian Answer: God defines and determines what "evil" is. He sets the standards for goodness/holiness/righteousness, as well as for what is evil (anything opposed to what God commands via His Law).
2) who sets the standard for what "love" (benevolence) is?
Christian Answer: again, God ALONE sets the standard of what His love is, as well as how humans are to think, speak, and behave. Anything outside of His standard is not "love," but "evil".
Jn. 3:16 gives us the 'how' of God's demonstration of love.
3) why does God 'allow' evil in His creation?
Christian Answer: the word "allow" can only be used of the Omniprescient, Omnipotent [Triune] God of Scripture in a temporal context.
In eternity, however, God decisively decreed 'whatsoever would come to pass in time in His creation'...and that includes the wickedness of Satan, by whom the creation and creatures fell from their original, holy state.
So, God's omnipotence is maintained because He is a God of PURPOSE (even for evil, God has a purpose); and He is benevolent in the sense that all those who believe in His Son Jesus Christ would not perish (by the Law, and under the condemnation of it) but would have eternal life (impeccable, and without deception, falsehoods and lies).
Just a short answer.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 I don't consider special pleading as a serious argument. If your god gets to redefine anything in our out of existence just so he keeps his status, then why even bother? "Well, /this/ genocide isn't evil because god says it's okay." Not even worth arguing.
God doesn't "redefine" stuff; He gives the proper definitions of terms, and provides the proper context for all the He does.
For example, the damnation of the wicked and unbelieving in the eschatological judgement is justified because God is the ultimate Lawgiver, Judge, and executioner of all who fall short of the perfection that His Law demands.
It's not too difficult to understand.
@@ryangallmeier6647 Context? So then things can be evil sometimes, but not other times?
Example?
This was just what I needed to share with my nieces. They said thanks!
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Thank you Pastor Mike for this video! It’s much needed.
Good can exist without evil but evil can't exist without good
PHENOMENAL video!!!! Thank you.
Love that you let the song play!!!!!!!
Enjoyed the teaching. I think there is a general principle that man stepped away from God and it is man that caused evil and only God's love and mercy that will intervene at times, if we seek him, to cause some good to result from a situation. But we should limit thoughts that God allows evil in order to bring good out of it. It is man's free will that causes evil and God's love that softens the impact,
This helped a lot GOD BLESS
Thanks Mike, great message. ❤️
Mike, I love that at 9:27 your stomach totally tells you, krispy Creme please right after you mentioned it. I think our stomach may have free will also...
Awesome video, great content. Looking forward to more.
42:15
I'd also add in the context of that specific verse, the main good that comes is we are made increasingly like Jesus. Through suffering, trials, and tests. Those in Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of the son, ehp 1:4. We are marked in him when we hear the gospel, humble ourselves, cry out for mercy, and believe. Those who are in Christ will become like him through obediance or discipline (hebrews 12), because God has predestined those who freely believe, to that end. So in the context he's saying no matter how it looks or feels, if you are in Christ and love God, he will work all things together for your good. So we grow and become one in tree body and mind of Christ. Reacting to life as he did, matt 5-8.
The answer was right just wanted to add that point to maybe be a little clearer on that verse. ❤
Thank you Pastor!! This really helped me and I'm sure it will help many other.
Great discussion Mike
Bethany is an incredible parent and person. She caught a wave last year or the year before that was so big it would literally drown anyone reading this. She’s a big wave rider. Look her up. Solid Christian.
Wonderful and thoughtful teaching on this challenging topic, Pastor Mike!
Excellent
Thank you for your comfort and wisdom, Pastor Mike. They are much appreciated. Bless you. Is there possibly another reason also for the evil in this world? A choice made a long time ago came with "the knowledge of good and evil". I can't imagine a better life for teaching us about good and evil, both externally and internally. Be careful what you wish for ...
Wow excellent work , the best I've heard on the topic , thanks
I believed a lie that my father molested me as a child. Because of it, I had serious daddy issues and tried to cope with men. Because of this, I had two children out of wedlock. My second child’s father abused me physically and emotionally. Because of this, once I left him, I stopped chasing men because I was broken by them. Because of this, I met my husband who needed a woman to not cling to him the way previous women who hurt him had. Because of this, in His perfect timing, the Lord revealed Himself to us both at the same time and changed our lives forever.
There is so much more to our stories, but the point is that during the hard times, there was hopelessness. But the hard times happened and ultimately led us to a promised treasure in Heaven with our Creator. Hallelujah!
God JHWE, Father, i trust in You in Jesus Christ's Name and i adore You.Amen❤🌹❤
I once found a parakeet, stranded and alone in the city. Definitely not in a place where it was supposed to be. Presumably, its wings were clipped because it couldn't fly off the ground. I took it home to care for it, earning its trust on the way. We thought it may belong to someone, so I put up flyers so that they could call me. In the couple days I had it at home, my little brother played with it, not understanding that whatever he was doing was terrifying and potentially harmful to the bird. For the entire rest of the week, that parakeet was afraid of us. Nothing I did seemed to change that. I had planned to take it to a friend's house where it would be happier and healthier. However, on the day I was going to do that, about a week after I first found it, I found it lying dead, hiding in the corner of our yard. It died of hunger, alone and too scared to eat.
There was no lesson I could've learned from this. I had no goal of learning to care for parakeets. Clearly, this didn't have too big of an effect on its owner because no one called. Had it lived for one more day, it could've lived a happy life. But that didn't happen. Why did that happen the way it did? What could God have hoped to gain from that? How can God possibly be glorified in the suffering and death of that parakeet? And don't say, "Well, God must've had a plan you can't see," Because that's simply an invalid argument.
thoughts on some of the arguments in this video:
1. saying you need god for morality is not a fact. whether you agree with them or not there are a lot of arguments for secular morality. so it’s wrong to say that atheists can’t call something immoral.
2. saying evil is a consequence of free will is not a good argument. god could have created a world with free will that doesn’t have evil. isn’t that what heaven is supposed to be?
3. god knew before the creation of everything that humans would fall and all the suffering that would come with it. if he didn’t create everything, he could have avoided all the suffering and avoided all the people that would reject him. isn’t he then responsible for that suffering and for all those people going to hell? and if he could not avoid those things, doesn’t that mean god is limited and not all powerful?
finally, saying atheists can not provide comfort to suffering people is wrong. you can comfort people by being there for them and supporting them in their need.
Counting it all Joy is not my strong suit. Still, prayer is for all things, including painful and confusing situations. I believe/help me with my unbelief is one of my most prevslent prayers. God bless you in your growing ministry.
This was a helpful message for me, thanks so much Mike. :)
Thank you! I really needed this 😭😭😭
I think the biggest issue I have with this question, is that it doesn’t go deep enough. To say “we’re not robots” in response to the problem of evil is entirely frustrating. Why is Free Will so important? If it is better to objectively be with God, and he knows that and he is totally good, why would he create a world in which I have the option to not be with him? Who does that serve? It doesn’t serve me, cause I objectively would be happier without that choice: it must serve God in some way then. But God doesn’t need does he? Does he gain something from us that he needs? No. So why create us, and then create us to fall? If the highest good that can come of my free Will is that I love God, why not just create me without the option to choose otherwise?
Further, why is there even a choice between sin and no sin? Why does sin even exist? Why not a world in which we can use our free Will to choose only good things? You could say that then goodness as we know it wouldn’t exist. That evil is necessary if there is goodness. But why? Why not a world in which God continually revealed himself in greater degrees of goodness to man? That there is good, and less good. Less good doesn’t need to mean evil, why can’t it simply mean less good?
Finally, stating that love is the highest good and love requires choice, is like saying that empathy is a higher good and empathy requires suffering. Wouldn’t any rational person, if given the choice, say “do away with suffering even at the cost of empathy”?
If God is omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent and totally satisfied in himself - why would he need love? Or even if he did need love, wouldn’t he be more perfect creating man without the ability to burn in hell, KNOWING that he chose to receive “love without choice” instead of “love with choice”?
This is all even assuming that the sovereignty of God coexists with our free Will, which is another paradoxical issue.
I am a deeply questioning Christian, perhaps even agnostic at this point. Evil doesn’t disprove God, but it makes it very unlikely that he is what classical theists have claimed. I have nothing against Mike or anyone who engages in theodicy. But these surface answers don’t get to the real issues.
At the end of the day, all I’ve been told is to simply rely on “I don’t know, God must be good though”
And I don’t know how to do that
Do you follow Jordan Peterson? If not I highly recommend his work, he has wrestled with exactly what you describe here for years and has finally come to his conclusion.
Also I seem to remember C.S. Lewis covers this free will topic.
Other than that I think reading the book of Hebrews, John and Romans gives a very full picture of the 'heart' of this matter.
I wish you well Gabe 😊
Would you child who questions and even challenges you as a peer continue being your child whom you love since birth?
@@I9s7lam5is-S3tu1pid what?
@@I9s7lam5is-S3tu1pid yes, if my child develops autonomy and independence I would be joyful
Couldn't help but notice that you used some of Tim Keller's points from Walking with God through Pain. I absolutely love that book!
Fantastic message and delivery, as always. Thanks Mike!
24:00 there it is Mike, you believe because you want to believe. Nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe you only believe that about me because you want to believe that about me.
@@MikeWinger Maybe! We are all prone to confirmation bias, and other such ways of thinking that lead us astray. This is why we need to try to "catch ourselves" doing these things. We need to be particularly careful about our beliefs when we want them to be true. And more than anything else we need to make sure we are not cheating to avoid losing.
And I'm sorry for this next bit sounding so harsh, but I've never seen a Christian not cheat to avoid losing. That includes yourself.
@@bjhcvuaerpigfyWe believe in a transcendent reality greater than anything that can be empirically known. There is substantial evidence but it’s known experientially AFTER you come to faith in Jesus. That’s the barrier for entry for scores of people throughout history. It’s understandable to a degree to desire evidence but still the trap that many fall into when it isn’t presented the way that they want. God owes no man an explanation but He’s also been good and faithful to provide what’s needed. He also doesn’t answer to any human demand based on our subjective standards.
@@josephjimorris evolution never selected for finding out the truth: only for avoiding being wrong. You are walking on the savannahs in Africa and you hear a rustling in the bushes. It could just be the wind or it might be a lion. To find out the truth you would go over to the bushes and investigate. To avoid being wrong you would just assume it's a lion and runaway. Evolution selects for the second option not the first. Christian's aren't interested in finding out the truth buy investigating, they are just trying to avoid being wrong, they just run away.
God is Just, he give us free will, if he didn’t he would not be All Good.
What does free will have to do with my mom getting cancer randomly and dying nothing? Thought so
I love that song!!!
This is awesome pastor.thank u
Wonderful! Thank you! God Bless!
These are some good ways of approaching the problem of pain. With all due respect.. I’d like to add one more... the promise of justice.
I was raised in the Church and thought I knew the Lord. But as I grew older, this problem of pain became the root and cause of MANY more problems I found myself facing: depression, anger, anxiety, isolation, addiction, and so on. I could not find any good explanation for why a “good” God would allow all of the evil, injustice, and sadness I saw all around me.
After years of this depression, right when I was ready to throw in the towel, He delivered me from this false view and the lies about who He is...
Mike mentions these atheists that claim they are going to shake their fist at God (I’ve heard a few myself); I’ve never heard anything so foolish.. so outlandish!!
When the Lord’s presence came near me that night... I didn’t see anything, nor could I have, my face was on the ground! None can stand, not even Isaiah, “Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.” Isaiah 6:5, or John: “When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,” Revelation 1:16
Make no mistake: God will not be mocked, He IS justice, He IS vengeance, He IS our vindicator, and He IS the righteous judge of the wicked-
“Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”” Romans 12:19
How would He be a just God to allow Hitler to escape answering for the murder millions by sticking a gun in his mouth, or by allowing Stalin to shake his fist at Him on his deathbed after killing millions of his own people, Ted Bundy and others who terrified, raped, and murdered dozens of women, deranged perverts who abuse children in all sorts of terrible fashions, nor of any of the horrible people who’ve done you and I wrong? They have their chance now to seek forgiveness while they still can. In the end, all will be set straight, nobody gets away with anything... I’m counting on it. “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.” Hebrews 9:27-28
“There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy...” James 4:12
Gal. 6:7, Deut. 32:35, Rev. 1:12-16, Is. 33:22, Gen. 30:6, Ps. 7:8, Is. 50:8, Rom. 8:33, Deut. 32:36, Luke 18:7, Is. 54:17, Ps. 50:6, 1 Sam. 24:15, Micah 4:3, and on, and on, and on. If someone were to say they don’t have much use for the Bible, rejecting His graceful forgiveness, they ought to know that God has plans for them in there as well.
Chris, what makes you think that men like Hitler and Stalin did the horrible things they did with the intention of mocking God, or "shaking their fist," as it were?
Joshua Holton I don’t think that Hitler or Stalin did these things to specifically, mock God; at least I’ve never thought or heard that to be the reason. I just mentioned the “God will not be mocked” verse from Gal. 6:7 to kind of suggest that He does see what is going on... He isn’t oblivious or ignorant. Now whether someone pays for their crimes in this life or not, they will still face a just Judge, to whom all is transparent.
As far as shaking their fists... I meant that both literally and as an analogy. Stalin’s daughter, Svetlana, has often commented on her father’s final moments before death and has suggested that his final act was to raise his hand and shake it at the sky, or point his finger in this manner. He was unable to talk in this condition, so nobody is sure this is what he meant to convey, it is just her personal opinion.
@@chrisbrower9532 Interesting. When I was a Christian, I remember getting some small degree of consolation from the idea that there would be ultimate justice. But since then, I've come to see a problem with the notion, and was discussing with a good Catholic friend of mine.
Hell is a place of unending torment. And though it's gratifying to think Hitler and Stalin will burn for a while, the punishment is incapable of matching the crime. Think about it. You've been in heaven for so long, you've forgotten how many thousands of years have scrolled by, and for a moment, you spare a thought for those who didn't believe. Looking down, you can see them, still burning, the light having left their eyes millennia ago, still gurgling out what tormented screams they can. And this has not yet begun for them. All this time is as the blink of an eye on the eternity that is their suffering.
At some point, I don't know when, I'd start to feel bad for them. Even if it was ten thousand years. Even if it was a thousand years for every gypsy, Jew, and homosexual that was murdered by the Third Reich. But God's just getting started.
Hell is not just. It cannot be. How can a god that devised this cesspit of unending sorrow be good? It is the height of vindictiveness to fashion such a place.
Joshua Holton with all due respect to your friend (and I admit, not knowing what he/she actually believes), asking a Roman Catholic about hell isn’t the advised place to start, given they (in general) believe in purgatory. Furthermore, not even all “Christians” are in agreement about hell being “eternal conscious torment” or rather an amount of time deemed just for their works and eventual “annihilation”.
With that caveat and for discussion’s sake, let’s assume “eternal conscious torment” theology. I think the common mistake is to equate ‘eternity’ as basically, an unlimited amount of time. This is not the case. Eternity could be better explained as the absence of time. There is no time as we experience it here; it is simply a state of being.
You are correct though, in the sense that no amount of punishment will ever be able to match the crime... not only to the victims, but even more so importantly (and even less possible), the offense done to Him.
To think that hell is God’s ‘personal torture chamber’ is really at the root of the error here. He does not revel in people’s suffering, but is instead patient and pleads for the repentance of man.
“Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back (change your way of thinking), turn back [in repentance] from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’” Ezekiel 33:11
“The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9
Finally, there’s the glaring, obvious fallacy in your epistemology (the method for how you find what is truth), that being that it is somehow dependent on how you feel or your opinion of the matter; your opinion (or even mine) are irrelevant as to whether God would “send” someone to hell. It doesn’t matter in any case; it doesn’t make it true or false.
We can go on with the error in thinking along this line as well, if we want. God doesn’t “send” people to hell in the sense that it is against someone’s will to do so. In fact, C.S. Lewis says something to the effect that “hell is a door locked from the inside”. Hell is the absence of God’s presence and every goodness that is included in that. So if He sends you out of His presence because of your sin- you are in effect, eternally separated from Him, and THAT is the real horror of hell. Not the punishment of pain, but of finally meeting the entire purpose of your life and the complete fulfillment of it, in Him!
“And then I will declare to them publicly, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM M E [you are banished from My presence], YOU WHO ACT WICKEDLY [disregarding My commands].’” Matthew 7:23
Don’t give up the faith so easily, man! I find it easier in trusting Jesus to be who He said He was: our Redeemer AND our just and fair Judge, than to squint my eyes shut and deny the reality of our situation... especially without Him! I let a lot of these questions bother me for a long time also, but the answers are all there, if you look for them... it’s nothing that every person hasn’t been bothered by or asked about.
Best of luck =)
@@chrisbrower9532 Chris Brower Well spoken, Chris. I'm pleased by your appeal to epistemology. Spot on. But speaking of epistemological flaws...
Christians not being in agreement on the nature of Hell also doesn't change the fact that one of them is right, and one of them is wrong...or they are both wrong. Opinions on the matter do not make one of them true. Roman Catholic, Protestant, or any other denomination, the consensus is that Hell is a place of punishment for the wicked. Be it eternal fire, or darkness, or separation from God, it is a punishment that's unending. When we are offered eternal life, do you think that it's not really eternal life, it's just life outside of time? Either way, immortality in the presence of God is the promise, and the inverse is presented for those who aren't believers, making the difference between eternity and being outside of time semantic.
Quoting Ezekiel here is non-productive. He is prophesying concerning the polytheistic proclivities of Israel. If he were alive, he's be asking you why you're using his quotes out of context. As for 2 Peter, that certainly seems more relevant. But the argument that "a thousand years is as a day" carries about as much weight as "please be patient, God doesn't own a clock." In cults and faiths the world over, leaders have used such language to mask failed fulfillment of prophecy. It's been two thousand very real, very blood-soaked years. At what point does humanity's patience reach a terminus?
When I had stated that I would begin to feel bad for the damned, that wasn't my argument, per se 🙂. The point I was making is that we can recognize that an action is immoral based on our conscience. That recognition that a position (eternal punishment) is Draconian is what drives my argument, not the underlying emotion. You are correct when you say our feelings on the matter don't make a case. But in matters of morality, they provide the waypoints by which we judge actions, and by extension, morality. I see that an eternal punishment is manifestly unjust, and the argument isn't "I'm upset at the injustice", it's "I see plainly that this is unjust". That's a value judgment. Yes, taking lives from people is one of the highest crimes one can commit, but at least those people's suffering ends with death (unless they disbelieve, then the misery's just getting started).
I know you stated that Hell might not be eternal, and that it might not be super burn-y. But Christian consensus seems to have settled on the Lake of Fire in Revelation as being synonymous with Hell. And dropping a No True Scotsman on that won't change the fact that therein lies the majority position when it comes to Hell. If you have personally adopted a less severe theology when it comes to Hell, I'd be happy to address that separately.
Do it in one easy step:
Ask them how they are defining evil outside of their own personal feelings in the first place, and from where they are deriving the moral authority to call it evil.
Simple,
Does it diminish human well-being? Does it improve happiness? If it harms, then it is morally wrong. If it helps, then it is morally good. Humans experience emotions, and we can measure these emotions. It isn't subjective to say that murder causes unjust suffering on the victim, but also on the family and friends of them. It also isn't subjective to say that surviving the murder and healing brings satisfaction to both the victim and their friends and family as they are still together.
It's isn't subject to say that that benefits the victim, but it's subjective to say that helping the victim is a good thing.
@@iMidnightStorm This is a terrible answer to that question. What do you mean by "wellbeing" and "happiness"? More importantly why do you consider them to be "good" things? Who says they're good? What if one persons happiness requires or causes another persons sadness? What if one person experiences MORE happiness than another by having their basic needs met? You've created a subjective "utility monster" that has no objective foundation. How do you scientifically measure wellbeing? How can you conclusively say that your murder analogy actually results in MORE wellbeing one way or another? What if your murderer enjoys murder and benefits from it so much that it creates more happiness and wellbeing in the system by allowing the murders to happen? I get the feeling you chose murder because you know it is objectively wrong even if there are benefits to wellbeing and happiness. This is where your reply REALLY falls apart. You actually DO agree that there are things that are objectively wrong.
@@lizzard13666 In general, yes, morality is by all accounts subjective and is dependent on upbringing and other external factors. The thing that differs, is that there is an objective that can be drawn from this subjective position.
If one tribe derives satisfaction from the ruthless slaughtering of those not within their tribe, and is surrounded by neighboring tribes that view this belief as a threat to their way of life, so the only solution to the problem is to exterminate this one tribe to preserve their way of life.
The subjective claim that "murder is wrong" can be made into an objective assertion. "Outlawing murder contributes to a peaceful, flourishing society." Everything including what we ought, or ought not do, is based on an agreed upon social standard that is drilled into us during our upbringing. Pretty much every claim about morality can be broken down into a subjective view of the world based on the way they were raised.
@@iMidnightStorm In no way is your assertion objective. Are you the one who decides what "peaceful" and "flourishing" are defined as? You are also being a little speciesist in your assertion, because who decided that human flourishing in this manner was better than the flourishing of any other species, or rocks for that matter? Why is it a good thing to break down and repurpose rocks into tools so that humans can "flourish" whatever you happen to presuppose that to mean? Why SHOULD humans have any special privilege over any other material construct? Your foundation is subjective, and the terms you use to define by seem pretty subjective and ill-defined as well.
Free will..final answer. Evil is in all of us. Square circle.
??? Pastor Mike: In heaven, how can we fully love God without free will to sin??? Thank you!
In heaven we have been judged already, we made the choice to love God for eternity. Heaven is simply him granting that.
Well, my atheist surroundings would ask, why in the world do you assume that people can't have a moral concience without God?