I found this video to be very interesting. Especially like your point about clear communication, checking in regarding the environment/needs, and giving time to process change of the routine. I’m not on the autism spectrum but I do have a disability and find all those things to be very important in friendships. I also think they’re just a sensible idea.
Wow that was quite the journey! As a neurotypical, the subject of making friends from the neurodiverse point of view has been the only thing about learning about NDs that has truly confused me. Of course it is pretty clear that you will want to be friends with whomever apreciates you for who you are, but all of the other factors neurodivergent people connect with seems like the factor that causes confusion, at least for me. Maybe it is because NDs don't/can't communicate their feelings or desires as well? All of my interactions with Aspies since I have started learning about ASD over the past few months have been online, so your description of "looking at a flat screen" when talking to people online really shed some light on things! Thank you :) As for friend groups, I am not sure if your friends have told you this, but I will mention it anyway so that other NDs can know this too. As neurotypicals, we will have groups for different activities, so we might show more of one side of ourselves with them, and maybe even hide some parts, similar to what you do with masking, just not as extreme. I think the more open minded someone is, the more diverse their friends are, and this is where we might see problems with some friend groups interacting. I do have a question about "checking in" to see how our ND person is doing: I asked before about where the line would be with being supportive or "talking down" to a ND person. Is it good to run through a checklist of questions of how the ND person is doing BEFORE beginning an activity? I ask because, from a neurotypical view at least, this breaks the authenticity of the interaction, and breaks the 'flow' and enjoyment of the social experience. I bet the ND person might feel that too. It also might undermine your 'independence' as you mentioned in this video.
If not exaggerating and purposefully appearing odd, having a checklist is okay, since autists play roles and compartmentalize their selves, rather than just assuming participation a priori and being offended if it is held in line. There has been a video by NeurodiverJENNt a day before this video, “Masking is different from seeking peer approval“, to illustrate. It is its own literary genre, see Jerry Stuger’s 2017 treatise “Kafka and Autism” and its 2018 sequel “Autism and Religious Beliefs”: religions are also only about setting identities straight to make people participate, people decide their values and thereby their group memberships, through chains of variously affecting images (“Metaphors We Live By”), but NTs don’t regularly make out the causality here, so social interaction is rightly seen as manipulative by autists who are not automatically susceptible to social confirmation and it is refreshing if you lay down your reasoning explicitly. I am sorry to confuse you folks however due to combining recent psychology studies with my legal and hence political and otherwise societal training based on lifelong linguistic and philological studies: for the minority way of thinking, it is consistently confrontational to present it to average strangers.
@@glossator-of-beauty Don't worry, confusion is fine, at least for me. I am an INFJ personality type, so learning about all of this, and trying to meet NDs in the middle of our worlds, is something I enjoy trying to do. I just need a bit more of an understanding on the inner workings of how NDs process friendship (at least that is my presumption). Most NDs wan't to be friends with every person who tries to understand their challenges, so the only real hitch I have is if a ND person isn't looking to be friends. It feels very rude to ask them why because it is basically asking them to explain or justify their existance. I don't totally understand what you layed out, but I will go watch that video and read your comment again, and get back to you in the next day or two :) Also I have studied law a fair bit, so explaining things in that mindset or way of thinking is understandable to me. Thank you for your detailed reply :)
The interaction between You two is absolutely delightful. Believe it or not, I think I may actually get much of what You're both saying. And You're bringing some pretty potent stuff to the table here. So, by all means, please do carry on. The Gentleman yields. The Floor is Yours. 🎼TD, Boston
@@glossator-of-beauty Ok I watched the video. Could you clarify what you mean by: "...since autists play roles and compartmentalize their selves, rather than just assuming participation a priori and being offended if it is held in line."? The one detail from the video I never realized is that people with ASD are LESS socially motivated than neurotypicals. I assumed that they would be more so due to less social connections due to rejection. The description of how people with ASD approach socializing (not carying about higherarchy, not status seeking, prioritizing authenticity, standing up for values, etc) is everything I embody in my own approach to socializing, although I am fairly sure I am neurotypical. But this gets me thinking: I think I forget what 'socializing' is typically viewed as, so maybe when a person with ASD declines friendship, maybe they are thinking of the 'usual activities' (which I am not interested in either). I just like to enjoy people of good character, and have meaningful conversations (I hate small talk). Of course that is just a guess, and I doubt I have all of the information on how people with ASD choose their friends, leaving room for confusions still.
@@tdesq.2463 Yeah it is definetely interesting talking with people with ASD. It is a refreshing change. Having the context of the video that was mentioned helped clarify things, but I also had to switch gears back to learning about this topic since I took a break for a few weeks just to process a few month long deep dive into it.
To be honest, I find your relationship stories impossible to fathom, as an autistic man, raised by a single father since ghosting or being ghosted by my refrigerator mother, though she be still extant, while I certainly don’t have cooccurring intellectual disability, given that I graduated law, in spite of lacking social cognition. You women have it much easier to be supportive or sympathetic, that’s why autism is four times less often diagnosed in you. I just sat about in the library, lectures, and the computer chair, and things happened without my participation.
@@ratlinggull2223 You are right, I doubt not, since due to “gymmaxxing” and later fashion-crazing since the events of the 2020 year, I am one of the 10 % that is accepted by default due to visually appealing to them, and also oratory dexterity also outsmart almost anyone, though I may ask to which extent you mean typically developing and psych females respectively. In Western countries one can perfectly bypass male gatekeepers as boring individuals, only occasionally employing them as hinges to connect to further females, whom they treat as though they had a desire to dispose of them; I mean in particular older fellows, who are always willing to converse with new people, after having lost connections over their lifetimes, and particularly those of migrant communities, whom I have access to due to being hyperpolyglot, and migrants sticking together like all minorities. It is just a bad habit of avoidance behaviour learnt in youth since man was too restarted to get along with peers at the neurotypical time: with age the requirements become distinct inasmuch as do individual characters. Yesterday in contrast I just went outside to walk in places where I have never been and at least had some conversation with a Bosniak pensioner, when hail in my city obstructed movement. “Oh yeah, I also have daughter”, that’s how it goes. It’s not that hard, look and smell and work something acceptable, even better if you look and smell good and have learnt a prestige profession and talk gallantly. In my country Germany I will understand the women, though not this New Zealand one, cultural differences are harder than most people realize, being attentive to nonverbal communication according to the neurotypical wont, while ideas expressed in one’s native language shape one’s ideology, so international relationships often don’t make sense in hindsight. I had to observe autistic women online a bit, interestingly, to make my conclusions about how the whole sex is.
Who cares if someone has ASD? Why does it matter? Just move on as if it's nothing. It's just as normal as being left handed. It's a random fact you just gotta move on from.
@@ratlinggull2223 What's wrong with being on the spectrum? And you *_cannot_* say "nothing.'' You've already implied there's something wrong with ASD. Now you gotta say what it is. Let's hear it. "What's wrong with ASD is"...?
It is a big deal. I will focus on two characteristics which arise out of brain development being different: 1) People with ASD have troubles processing social cues, body language, and implied concepts in speech. Take a look at the video by Morgan Foley called: "Why are autistic people always misunderstood?" for more info of the implications of this. 2) People on the spectrum cannot filter out stimuli that they bring in from their senses. Think of a night out on a farm with crickets making noise. As normal people we might 'forget' about the crickets and not hear them if there is a meteor shower we are amazed by and focusing on. People with ASD can't filter out stimuli like this. If there is too much stimuli in an environment, it can get to the point where their brains cannot process it fast enough. This is called "overstimulation". If overstimulation continues, it can lead to the brain becoming so backlogged with information to process that it becomes completely overwhelmed and unable to function socially or emotionally. This is a "shutdown" or a "meltdown". That being said, #1 is a BIG issue. It causes people with ASD to be rejected by most of society because they can't follow social cues. This starts when they are children, and often leads to the person developing Complex PTSD or other anxiety disorders. One of the most notorious behaviours which comes out of this is "masking" behaviour. It is the king of 'fawning' behaviour (fight, flight, freeze, and fawn are the 4 trauma reactions). Masking is the act of people with ASD trying to completely bridge the gap between our two worlds, and is fairly difficult for them to maintain (think of having to act out a role like an actor would, but with no break in between), and causes trauma in its own right.
I found this video to be very interesting. Especially like your point about clear communication, checking in regarding the environment/needs, and giving time to process change of the routine. I’m not on the autism spectrum but I do have a disability and find all those things to be very important in friendships. I also think they’re just a sensible idea.
when there is the change in plan I am completely out of order for next 3 days 🤣 I know it s not funny but I truly am :DD
Thank You. Very important for me to "get" this. Really.
🎼TD, Boston, MA USA
amazing video. thank you for sharing with us
Wow that was quite the journey! As a neurotypical, the subject of making friends from the neurodiverse point of view has been the only thing about learning about NDs that has truly confused me. Of course it is pretty clear that you will want to be friends with whomever apreciates you for who you are, but all of the other factors neurodivergent people connect with seems like the factor that causes confusion, at least for me. Maybe it is because NDs don't/can't communicate their feelings or desires as well?
All of my interactions with Aspies since I have started learning about ASD over the past few months have been online, so your description of "looking at a flat screen" when talking to people online really shed some light on things! Thank you :)
As for friend groups, I am not sure if your friends have told you this, but I will mention it anyway so that other NDs can know this too. As neurotypicals, we will have groups for different activities, so we might show more of one side of ourselves with them, and maybe even hide some parts, similar to what you do with masking, just not as extreme. I think the more open minded someone is, the more diverse their friends are, and this is where we might see problems with some friend groups interacting.
I do have a question about "checking in" to see how our ND person is doing: I asked before about where the line would be with being supportive or "talking down" to a ND person. Is it good to run through a checklist of questions of how the ND person is doing BEFORE beginning an activity? I ask because, from a neurotypical view at least, this breaks the authenticity of the interaction, and breaks the 'flow' and enjoyment of the social experience. I bet the ND person might feel that too. It also might undermine your 'independence' as you mentioned in this video.
If not exaggerating and purposefully appearing odd, having a checklist is okay, since autists play roles and compartmentalize their selves, rather than just assuming participation a priori and being offended if it is held in line. There has been a video by NeurodiverJENNt a day before this video, “Masking is different from seeking peer approval“, to illustrate. It is its own literary genre, see Jerry Stuger’s 2017 treatise “Kafka and Autism” and its 2018 sequel “Autism and Religious Beliefs”: religions are also only about setting identities straight to make people participate, people decide their values and thereby their group memberships, through chains of variously affecting images (“Metaphors We Live By”), but NTs don’t regularly make out the causality here, so social interaction is rightly seen as manipulative by autists who are not automatically susceptible to social confirmation and it is refreshing if you lay down your reasoning explicitly. I am sorry to confuse you folks however due to combining recent psychology studies with my legal and hence political and otherwise societal training based on lifelong linguistic and philological studies: for the minority way of thinking, it is consistently confrontational to present it to average strangers.
@@glossator-of-beauty Don't worry, confusion is fine, at least for me. I am an INFJ personality type, so learning about all of this, and trying to meet NDs in the middle of our worlds, is something I enjoy trying to do. I just need a bit more of an understanding on the inner workings of how NDs process friendship (at least that is my presumption). Most NDs wan't to be friends with every person who tries to understand their challenges, so the only real hitch I have is if a ND person isn't looking to be friends. It feels very rude to ask them why because it is basically asking them to explain or justify their existance.
I don't totally understand what you layed out, but I will go watch that video and read your comment again, and get back to you in the next day or two :) Also I have studied law a fair bit, so explaining things in that mindset or way of thinking is understandable to me. Thank you for your detailed reply :)
The interaction between You two is absolutely delightful. Believe it or not, I think I may actually get much of what You're both saying. And You're bringing some pretty potent stuff to the table here.
So, by all means, please do carry on.
The Gentleman yields. The Floor is Yours.
🎼TD, Boston
@@glossator-of-beauty Ok I watched the video. Could you clarify what you mean by: "...since autists play roles and compartmentalize their selves, rather than just assuming participation a priori and being offended if it is held in line."?
The one detail from the video I never realized is that people with ASD are LESS socially motivated than neurotypicals. I assumed that they would be more so due to less social connections due to rejection. The description of how people with ASD approach socializing (not carying about higherarchy, not status seeking, prioritizing authenticity, standing up for values, etc) is everything I embody in my own approach to socializing, although I am fairly sure I am neurotypical. But this gets me thinking:
I think I forget what 'socializing' is typically viewed as, so maybe when a person with ASD declines friendship, maybe they are thinking of the 'usual activities' (which I am not interested in either). I just like to enjoy people of good character, and have meaningful conversations (I hate small talk). Of course that is just a guess, and I doubt I have all of the information on how people with ASD choose their friends, leaving room for confusions still.
@@tdesq.2463 Yeah it is definetely interesting talking with people with ASD. It is a refreshing change.
Having the context of the video that was mentioned helped clarify things, but I also had to switch gears back to learning about this topic since I took a break for a few weeks just to process a few month long deep dive into it.
❤
To be honest, I find your relationship stories impossible to fathom, as an autistic man, raised by a single father since ghosting or being ghosted by my refrigerator mother, though she be still extant, while I certainly don’t have cooccurring intellectual disability, given that I graduated law, in spite of lacking social cognition. You women have it much easier to be supportive or sympathetic, that’s why autism is four times less often diagnosed in you. I just sat about in the library, lectures, and the computer chair, and things happened without my participation.
Try making female friends. Not even kidding. Don't go for the boys, unless they're literally perfect.
@@ratlinggull2223 You are right, I doubt not, since due to “gymmaxxing” and later fashion-crazing since the events of the 2020 year, I am one of the 10 % that is accepted by default due to visually appealing to them, and also oratory dexterity also outsmart almost anyone, though I may ask to which extent you mean typically developing and psych females respectively. In Western countries one can perfectly bypass male gatekeepers as boring individuals, only occasionally employing them as hinges to connect to further females, whom they treat as though they had a desire to dispose of them; I mean in particular older fellows, who are always willing to converse with new people, after having lost connections over their lifetimes, and particularly those of migrant communities, whom I have access to due to being hyperpolyglot, and migrants sticking together like all minorities.
It is just a bad habit of avoidance behaviour learnt in youth since man was too restarted to get along with peers at the neurotypical time: with age the requirements become distinct inasmuch as do individual characters. Yesterday in contrast I just went outside to walk in places where I have never been and at least had some conversation with a Bosniak pensioner, when hail in my city obstructed movement. “Oh yeah, I also have daughter”, that’s how it goes. It’s not that hard, look and smell and work something acceptable, even better if you look and smell good and have learnt a prestige profession and talk gallantly.
In my country Germany I will understand the women, though not this New Zealand one, cultural differences are harder than most people realize, being attentive to nonverbal communication according to the neurotypical wont, while ideas expressed in one’s native language shape one’s ideology, so international relationships often don’t make sense in hindsight. I had to observe autistic women online a bit, interestingly, to make my conclusions about how the whole sex is.
The two of ua have much in common.
Who cares if someone has ASD? Why does it matter? Just move on as if it's nothing. It's just as normal as being left handed. It's a random fact you just gotta move on from.
I care, and a lot of people care. Being left handed doesn't change how you interact with them, but being on the spectrum does.
@@ratlinggull2223 What's wrong with being on the spectrum? And you *_cannot_* say "nothing.'' You've already implied there's something wrong with ASD. Now you gotta say what it is. Let's hear it. "What's wrong with ASD is"...?
@@johnrainsman6650 Way to go strawman man. I won't engage with you if you keep assuming things that I never meant.
It is a big deal. I will focus on two characteristics which arise out of brain development being different:
1) People with ASD have troubles processing social cues, body language, and implied concepts in speech. Take a look at the video by Morgan Foley called: "Why are autistic people always misunderstood?" for more info of the implications of this.
2) People on the spectrum cannot filter out stimuli that they bring in from their senses. Think of a night out on a farm with crickets making noise. As normal people we might 'forget' about the crickets and not hear them if there is a meteor shower we are amazed by and focusing on. People with ASD can't filter out stimuli like this. If there is too much stimuli in an environment, it can get to the point where their brains cannot process it fast enough. This is called "overstimulation". If overstimulation continues, it can lead to the brain becoming so backlogged with information to process that it becomes completely overwhelmed and unable to function socially or emotionally. This is a "shutdown" or a "meltdown".
That being said, #1 is a BIG issue. It causes people with ASD to be rejected by most of society because they can't follow social cues. This starts when they are children, and often leads to the person developing Complex PTSD or other anxiety disorders. One of the most notorious behaviours which comes out of this is "masking" behaviour. It is the king of 'fawning' behaviour (fight, flight, freeze, and fawn are the 4 trauma reactions). Masking is the act of people with ASD trying to completely bridge the gap between our two worlds, and is fairly difficult for them to maintain (think of having to act out a role like an actor would, but with no break in between), and causes trauma in its own right.
@@ratlinggull2223 Well what did you mean?
thank you Elena, I found this video helpful and validating 🩵