As a mid-handicapper in my mid-seventies, and having played golf for 60 years, I've tried many swing thoughts and moves over the years trying to improve distance and consistency. Some worked for a while, some didn't. In the end I've found that provided the basic setup (stance, grip, ball position) is ok, a simple swing such as 'the circle' works best, giving straight and *repeatable* strikes -- maybe not the longest, but certainly the most reliable. In addition, I've found a tip from Danny Maude very good: keep the grip light and the wrists loose, and imagine you're trying to flick a thick rope from side to side i.e. to the trail side during the backswing, and the lead side during the downswing. This ensures a good wrist hinge, promoting fast clubhead speed through the ball. Try it - it works!
I finally just focused on half shots with my 9 iron helped me more than full swings ever did. I placed club impact tape a head length behind the ball on the mat and try to not hit the tape for ball first focus. I was getting consistent compression. Then I realized I can do it home on the carpet. It’s the simple aha moments I love but then the facepalm of why wasn’t I doing this before.
That's awesome. It's just like anything else, right? Shooting a basketball, driving a car, cooking a meal. Start small and simple, get that down, then increase from there.
I came across a few of your videos from 2 years ago where you tried on the Jim V swing. Why did you stop using it? We’re you just trying it out and planned on going back to your original swing. Seemed like it was working well for you! I am going to start his program this month and your videos really helped me get there!
Thanks Jake. I've actually made a few videos explaining because I've gotten this question so often. I've tried to do a lot of swing method reviews in an effort to bring the unconventional to light. Lots of trials on this channel, lol.
Makes a lot of sense, thanks. I have difficulties feeling or knowing where the clubhead is at any particular moment in the swing. Seems as if this ''forces" you to be aware of where the clubhead is. Can't wait to try this.
There's an old tip from Jack Nicklaus and Jim Flick. If you can't feel the weight of the clubhead and know where it is at all times, check your grip pressure. Don't hold it like an egg, but don't hold it too tight either.
Just proves the old adage … “less is more”. Definitely going out and give the circle approach a go. Thanks Chad … you’re definitely on too something here 👍🏻
Hi Chad. My one simple thought: Swing the weight of your club head back and forth with your little trail finger. It took me until now to finally figure it out. Try it. You will love it as I do. And if you make a video on it please mention my name. Cheers 😃⛳️🥂👍❤️
Well said sir. I just try enjoy the game so set up and just swing upper arms back the forward and let the club set the wrists. Simple. Might not hit it miles but I can enjoy the game and not worry about ruining my body. Arms should always dictate how the body moves. Ask someone to swing a club in a circle and they can do it really easily. Tell them to do it again and rotate, shift weight, fire hips while still trying to make that circle and watch chaos ensue. As the man himself always said. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. Keep up the good work sir 👍
BIG CIRCLE. Great video, the old KISS Keep It Simple Stupid. Makes sense, very well explained. Let’s face it, we all have different body types, so the mechanics will vary with each individual. Trying to copy someone else is flawed unless we have the same body mechanics
CHAD, I get the feeling you are one good dude.....I have been around for close to 8 decades so I have seen a few,,,,,I would say you are the ''Everyman'....you have me swinging in a circle and it is 32 outside. Felt good and natural.making/ seeing that circle in my minds eye.....one thing that really surprised me was that I didn't have that hit/ kill the ball thought....BE SAFE, Ron
Well in a multi-plane swing you are trying to be on the address shaft plane or on a parallel plane at all times in the swing. Now if you accept the premise that a pure reversal of motion on the downswing naturally steepens the shaft plane especially with longer clubs (this is definitely true for the reasons I cited). Therefore to balance the effect of that steepening with no adjustment at all would require you to swing back on a plane or parallel plane that is flatter than your address plane so that when you reverse direction it steepens back onto a plane parellel to your shaft plane at the beginning of the downswing. However with most people's address shaft planes this is a very difficult and awkward thing to attempt. Try it and I think that you'll understand why the accepted wisdom is to swing back on a plane that is always parallel to your address plane and then flatten it (because it steepens naturally at the top) back to a plane that is again parallel and eventually falls back onto your address shaft plane. Glad that you liked the Strawberry shortcake thing, I thought that was a really good idea as well. Speaking of that, it's about time for my dessert :-) Cheers.
Well, I understand your frustration and point of view and please don't understand me as trying to be anything but helpful. I think that I answered the "why would the shaft be on the wrong plane if it went back on the right one" question but I understand that it was probably easy to miss. It has to do with what I mentioned about how the arm to the torso is different in the backswing versus the downswing. Arms pulling torso around versus torso pulling arms on the downswing. This means that if you just reversed the motion you made on the downswing with no side bend, back arch and arm hand adjustment, the arms will be thrown forward by rotation IMMEDIATELY (because they are pulled around by the rotation) and end up high and steep coming down. Also in golf, you have to square the club so you need to get the trail shoulder in behind the motion of the swinging arms in order to rotate the clubface and square it but if the trail shoulder is thrown forward and high, squaring is impossible without early extending and flipping the club. But you must understand that the whole problem is caused by this arm/torso backswing/downswing difference causing steepness and the need to align the trail shoulder and square the club. Baseball players naturally align the trailer shoulder and flatten the bat because these are power moves but they don't need to worry about squaring the bat. So when they learn golf, they have tremendous speed but often slice terribly because they don't know how to square the face. It IS possible to just swing back on the same plane and back down if you understand how to make the necessary adjustments to the trail arm and hand position as you get to the top of the swing so that the shaft will automatically flatten and the trail shoulder will align (assuming you have side bend and back arch, these are essential) and then simply by reversing direction the club will fall on a good plane and be able to be squared. But without those adjustments it won't happen. This would take some detailed knowledge of what needs to change in the downswing to make this happen. Relaxing one's trail hand grip quite a bit at the beginning of the transition on a very full swing goes a long way towards helping one feel several of the motions that need take place for shaft flattening. By the way, these same things happen in the SPS. Shoulder drop through side bend and back arch, trail shoulder alignment and letting the shaft flatten and the club fall behind the hands all still happen just in a slightly different way. This was the cause of your problem with plane in the SPS because you never got your trail shoulder and arm in a position where you could flatten the shaft and move back on plane. Your frustations with mechanics and instruction are why I mentioned the Johnston videos and drills. I realize that the complexities are overwhelming to a degree so I was wanting to offer something simple that helps reduce them to a simple feeling or two that encompass the required movements. The movements themselves are not that complicated and not that many but when you realize that 4 or 5 of them happen in a fraction of a second during the transition, it makes sense that people need something to help them feel what is actually a number of things going on in simple fashion. I was excited about his approach because it was immediately evident to me that he was greatly simplifying things that most golfers struggle with significantly. These movements really are the secret sauce of the golf swing and why pros are so hard to copy. There are a bunch of things happening during the milliseconds of transition that are very hard to see and emulate but they are happening in all great swings and additionally I think that a lot of good players have just learned to feel them naturally and don't even full realize that they do them. I have studied these things for a long time and I can assure you that some version of these movements is essential for your best ball striking and impossible without them. Those who say they don't do them just don't notice them but show me their swings and I will show you that they do. No matter how you slice it though, the golf swing is complex and in my case, that's part of what I love about the game. The rewards of making something so challenging seem fluid and effortless at times is intoxicating, to me at least. All the best. Cheers :-)
No doubt that all of those things happen with your body as described, assuming you have normal flexibility, range of motion, ample musculature and you have all of your parts, lol. I knew what you meant as far as going back and coming through, and how different actions are involved in different ways, but the plane thing we were talking about, that's backwards from what I said. I said, why would a plane need to drop down on a different plane, unless it went back on the wrong plane? It doesn't matter though, lol, because I'm not on plane in either place. Like you said though; I can hit good shots still because I make compensations like changing wrist angles or moving my body different on the downswing. Which are considered bad compensations that rob power. That's evident in my driver distance... haha. I saw the Steve Johnston video you mentioned. The "strawberry mousse" episode from a while back. Great trick for rythym and tempo.
I get really good results with my 3 wood picturing the circle and to a degree the driver too. But not quite the same feeling with the irons but i agree it’s a good swing thought I’ve found.
Irons are the same concept for me, but they do require a tweak. Off a tee, the bottom of the circle, and the pitch or slant of the circle is one way. But anything on the turf requires the circle to bottom out AFTER the ball. So use your mental imagery to shift the circle forward a bit, and the lowest part of the circle is actually about 3 inches, give or take, after the ball.
Every golfer has his own ability and goals. When u stating here is a great concept up to a certain point. I’m pretty good golfer playing from the white tee. I can hit every club dead straight if I only swing about 60% of my full speed. Which is totally fine for the white tees hitting 7i for 160yd. But when I moved up to the blue tee or to the black tees I have to start swing 80%+ of my full speed, this is where I start to struggle. Which leads me in search to have a better swing or improve my form. To my point is at some point you need to introduce variables to your swing to gain distance. I feel like we are all a much better golf if we just swing it nice and slow or a comfortable rhythm. But we want hit it farer just because we want to or now we need to hit our 7i 180 to GIR.
I can relate, haha. Honestly, the blue and black tees at a lot of the more modern courses are too much for the majority of golfers. The average handicap is about 18 or 20. 10 handicap to 40 handicap represents the vast majority of the golfing population. Anybody in single digits should not be looking to anybody other than an in person pro to see on a regular basis if they are serious about improving and have the time to devote to lots of hard work.
@@GolfTestDummy yep, white tee at most 7iron in. Black tee I have to hit a 4 iron or 3 hybrid. Those clubs are definitely not forgiving. If a perfect shot will cause it to roll off the green. But I have recently switched to single length which it does help with some consistently. Im at a point which I need to get my driver to 280 carry or get good with my long irons. I was in hoping to find a new swing that can help my long iron game. But still searching
True, we need to STOP OVERTHINKING ! its like when we focus too much on the ball watching it... it always a bad hit. Same happens when we focus too much on things like my hand, how my finger feels on overlap or this or that.. how my feets are etc etc. You KNOW Chad, i was using for example 10 finger, then overlap, then interlock... and it was messing everytime my shots. So i definetly (i think) change now to 10 finger again cause i feel how it feels natural and i dont have to stop think how it feels when i overlap or interlock etc... so im making it simple. So thats one thing less i have to think and focus on. Now i feel all my hits soft and right on spot. My opinion ends there, we need to STOP OVERTHINKING the swing. TC amigo Chad.
Hey Chad, I know you have been struggling and had a lot of people comment (especially with the Norman stuff) about coming over the plane. I get it on my stuff, too, regardless of the shot result. I think you need to check out and test My Swing Evolution and his new over the top series. He’s doing a great job proving you can be over the top and play great golf. It can also help your mental side to just swing the club like you’re talking about here. Keep up the good work! ~ Craig
Haha, man you're in my head. I emailed Christo about a week or so ago. Come to think of it, after his first response, I haven't heard back yet. Very much agree with you that putting yourself out here in Tubeland leaves you open to slings and arrows. No biggie.
Hi Chad. I have followed Christo Garcia for 11 years and he frequently responds to whatever I write on his You Tube Channel just as you do. I currently am enjoying watching Christo share his miracle OTT swing as well: and; would like to note that anyone can take advantage of his free month trail to learn more if they wish to. Cheers
I wish Christo would stop calling it Over the top, it’s over the backswing plane not your typical amateur OTT where the shoulder goes out instead of down.
@@maeu59 the OTT Christo is referring to is actually his club head taking a sharp clockwise turn during the transition from his backswing to his downswing; very briefly going over the top of his downswing. He is finally admitting to himself that his practice OTT is deferent from his miracle OTT swing drills he does and teaches. So your right his miracle OTT swing is not exactly like the OTT swing of his figure eight that he drills with. I call it more of an Action/Reaction Golf Swing that I am working on now. Cheers
@@thomasfraser9072 yes I just feel him calling it OTT is not correct. His real swing doesn’t appear to go over the backswing plane at all. A true OTT swing is the right shoulder going out at the ball and cutting across, resulting in a slice. And the simplest way to fix that is with alignment and knowing how to aim.
Whewwwwww. Years ago, in a galaxy far, far away... haha. I read that book a few years after I first got into golf and it was what I used to learn a lot in the beginning. Back when I was younger, my swing was a lot more like Hogan's than now. And I could play pretty well, but I was inconsistent often. More often than I would like. The most consistency I've ever had was single plane.
@@GolfTestDummy the best round I ever had I was using what I learned from BH5L. But somehow I always come back to Moe Normans ways. It makes sense to my body.
In reality Hogans book was all about how to not hit a hook. It doesn’t work for everybody. People got infatuated with Hogan due to his success, but said a lot of things in that book that he didn’t do himself. He also left a lot of detail out. I think it ruined more golfers than it helped.
There's definitely truth in that. The title Nicklaus had for his system, Golf My Way, was the most truthful and honest title. After all, everybody's golf is "their way".
Hi GTD. I thought you might find this interesting. The video titled "Learn the Mike Austin THROW Release for Incredible Distance!" is really an excellent demontration about how a good release happens. The kind of speed that he is developing in this throw (spinning the club) is the way that power really develops in all really powerful and effective golf swing. You can really see in this motion a couple of things that I have written about before. First is the bending or misaligning of levers and then straightening or realigning of same. Notice how his arms align with each other as the trail arm straightens and the club is thrown out into alignment with this system (in a swing this would be beyond impact) and his trail knee moves around as his body is spinning on its axis through the release (bent lever system of the body aligns to rotate around an axis and release built up rotational power). This is how you maximally capitalize on rotational power. Additionally as everything aligns and is released, the toe of the club is released around the shaft so this throw produces automatic squaring of the face. Secondly, notice that during his windup, his shoulder drops down and the club shaft flattens out and drops behind the release motion such that the club shaft falls well down and behind his torso before he starts the release motion. This is the shaft flattening motion in all great golf swings. If someone can produce a throw just like this of the club and then bring this motion/feeling down to the ball (not that hard to do) looking for that same sense of causing the shaft to "helicopter" as a result of the "throw" they would produce tremendous and controllable power and easy squaring of the face. This effect can look different in swings with somewhat different body motions but this type of motion (and this feeling) is happening in all powerful effective golf swings and Pratt is reducing it here to its essence. I know that Shawn Clement teaches and recommends club throwing and you have possibly tried this before. However, although I think highly of Shawn and his instruction I believe he makes some slight errors in some of the imagery that he uses to teach and inadvertently creates some confusion. I made a comment once on something that I felt was wrong and his answer did not directly address the point but said something about how his swing was in a state of evolution and he was using generalities to get people moving in the right direction. To be specific, the comment was about his grass whip training technique where he walks and swings and then demonstrates the same motion with a golf club and then sets up and hits a shot with the implication being that the motion is very similar and to me even implying that the release is quite similar. However, if you analyse his release when a ball is struck, it is night and day different than that demonstrated motion. The grass whip motion is useful for teaching rhythm, weight shift, and natural body motion but the approach into "impact" should be realistically shown and explained. The release that Shawn demonstrates before the actual strike would not produce much power and/or would not square the face. This is because in order for those things to happen, the motion of the trail arm must fall right behind the motion of the lead arm and shoulder WELL BEFORE impact. This happens in Shawn's real golf swing (and looks kind of funny because of his weird backswing; slow him down through impact and you'll see what I mean) but not in the demonstrations. I do believe that this can create a lot of confusion for people because this area of the proper release is a source of massive confusion in the golf world. The same thing happens in my opinion when Shawn demonstrates throwing of the club, it is generally not bad but not fully accurate as far as a real golf swing is concerned. But, what Pratt is showing here is accurate because the trail arm and hand are fully aligning before the "impact" portion of the motion and if brought down would produce a powerful square strike. This is nothing against Shawn; these aspects of the swing are extremely difficult to fully understand and encapsulate and also extremely easy to get somewhat wrong even when you are intensely versed and immersed in them. I personally have stumbled around for many years through all of this stuff and also gone in many circles (in part because of all of the confusion that is out there) but I know that what I am sharing now is what I have felt when I have hit the ball the longest, straightest, and best of my life and involves the REAL nature of the release. I know that this is a lot of explanation which I am using to give context to a very simple and I believe very powerful concept. I am certain that I could show you the employment of this concept in every effective swing from Clement, to Venetos, to Norman and Del Barrio to tour pros. I am trying to give you stuff which is very simple and cuts to the crux of the matter. It addresses a ton of mechanical aspects of the swing but has reduced them down to something that I think virtually anyone can understand and employ, Hope that you find it helpful. Cheers.
Your insights are always very in depth and well written. From the standpoint of what's actually taking place, I'm not sure I've read anything with more thought and depth. I'd say this in regards to the grass whip and other similar teaching tools. There is a galaxy of teachers out there. All shapes and sizes and methods. The biggest majority of them teach technically and from a basically similar school of thought and they employ the latest technology and tons and tons of data. To some people, modern and conventional instruction can help. To others, seeing and visualizing with relatable tasks might be the only way to get some people "close" to good. It's a much less technical way to teach, but, even that is not right for everybody. But, in the professional world, there are many swings that, even though they look different, do in fact employ several similar components, and nobody can deny that. So, when you're talking about reality, and what's actually happening, you're right. The proof is on video and in pictures. But in my experience, as an amateur, I've seen some really good golfers and played with some on course, and the biggest majority of them don't look like the swings I see on TV. They're quirky, different, seem "off" technically, etc. But man they can really shoot some awesome scores. I think a lot of coaches have taken a path to teach the majority of golfers, who shoot 90s or higher, and make them demonstrably better, and that's really all most of them want. At the end of the day, Shawn's students aren't pros, so he doesn't worry too much about making things technically perfect, just solid.
@@GolfTestDummyWell I guess that what I'm saying is that even if a swing looks weird, in order for it to produce a lot of power and hit it straight the principles of leverage will be similar and that swing will contain a lot of the elements of the motion that Pratt is making although depending upon things like adress position, spine tilt, hip turn, etc. they may appear somewhat different but those things will still be there. If a swing produces less power, then some of the elements that maximize leverage might be missing or altered. I've seen lots of people with odd quirky swings that can play a shortish course with low scores and hit the ball consistently and straight. Conversely, a lot of people can hit it a "country mile" but have very little consistent control of the face. That usually improves with shorter clubs so I've seen long hitters playing average courses well with nothing more than a 4-iron or so just so they can keep in on the property. I totally agree that Shawn is trying to give his average golfer students some simple solid instruction. I just think that many students might be left to "fill in the blanks" of how to release properly. He is teaching it in generalities and the principles are sound. But for example, if they were copying Shawn's own swing and the way he releases in demonstrations and drills, and throwing, they would not hit good shots because Shawn does not actually release that way because of the particularities of his motion which is extremely vertical takeaway and upright plane, U-shaped clubhead motion, open clubface at the top, etc.. This means that he has what I would call "an expert flip" through impact especially with his irons, which he does EXTREMELY well but is very hard to imitate. He then demonstrates with 2 people with extremely solid swings but who both swing quite differently from each other and very diferently from him but when he teaches how to do things, there is a kind of "one size fits all" narrative a lot of the time from what I can tell. Of course, I am talking about his free stuff and I could be wrong but I have had the sense that his paid subscription stuff is a fleshed out version of more of the same. I am not singling out Shawn here except as an example. This kind of thing is to me a bugaboo of formal golf instruction. My feeling is this: First of all you can't teach the golf swing in a monolothic way at all because every significant difference in swing motion requires another complimentary motion. The exception is something like what Todd Graves is doing where you are literally teaching the same moves to everybody. Seocndly, the transition and the release are the two most important parts of the golf swing and should be taught in the most detail and not monolithically unless your system is monolithic but even then they need heavy coverage.The fact that these things are not done is the biggest reason in my opinion that a simple training aid like the Impact Snap sometimes does more for people's golf swings than years or sometimes even decades of golf instruction. Don't even get me started on ridiculous cliches like "if you have a good grip and address position, two thirds of the work is already done". This is why I feel enthusiastic about what Pratt is showing. For me it has a certain level of simplicity and practical universality in the understanding of both the transiton and the release. It's application might need certain adjustments for an individual swing but it has quite a bit of direct appliction to all good swings. This is not the case for a lot of the instruction I see out there in my opinion resulting in a lot of confusion and very slow progress. Cheers.
I can agree with a lot of that. Here's a question I always find myself asking... Modern instruction, for the most part, subscribes to the theory that a rotational swing is far superior because it's much more reliable than timing with hands, especially with regards to squaring the face. The reasoning behind being that if you keep the leading edge of the club "mimicking" the spine angle and the arms don't release until after impact, that all you have to do is rotate, and continue rotating, through the impact area. They say this is much easier to built consistency with. Versus the alternative, which is a hands and arms dominant swing, that requires the timing of essentially and turning of the wrists to square up the face, and that is much harder to do consistently. But if I think about it, my hands are much more sensitive and trained than my spine or hips or chest will ever be, right? And if my weight is off a bit, or I haven't quite rotated enough, or I've rotated too much, or my spine angle changes, or my shoulders aren't in sync, etc., then don't I have a very real chance of a shot not going to plan, much like poorly timed hands? Mike Malaska made a video about different ways to swing the club, and he teaches a very hands first, impact first, leveraging of the wrists type swing. Jim Flick taught the same, as he was his mentor. Bob Toski taught the same, etc. Of course, lol, we're talking about old school teachers, and I'm juxtaposing them with the modern swing, but it's still fair to say that these guys were some of the best, most effective coaches, and Mike still is. I guess my point is; Using your hands and arms has been generally labeled "bad" in recent years, while rotation first, leaving hands and arms out of it, has been labeled much more consistent, and the clear winner. But if I put my hands on the club, and maintain a relationship between my palms or back of my hand with the clubface, I trust my hands to bring it back square, much more than my lats, or my butt, or my hips, or my chest. Not to mention that it's harder for me to rotate without pain these days, lol. Do you agree with that or am I off my rocker? Love to hear your thoughts.
@@GolfTestDummy Well I think that both ideas have merit for different reasons. Rotation, all things being equal is going to give a power advantage on average in today's power game at the highest level. There could be exceptions where somebody is extremely gifted at developing power with less body and very efficient arm and wrist motions. However, body rotation swings still require a lot of coordination of the arm, wrist, and hand motions. The idea that this isn't the case is to me a major fallacy and I would say that pretty much all really good ball strikers have very coordinated hand, wrist, and arm motions regardless of swing type. When you rotate the body significantly, there is a heck of a lot going on that the arms and hands have to adjust to even if you mirror the spine angle wit the clubface. There is back arch and side bend on both sides of the swing and depending on the exact nature of the swing there is also side crunch, and spinal compression, not to mention, hip drive, also both shoulder joints move independantly back and forth to increase turn and speed up rotation. There is also knee rotation and plane and it's relationship to hip rotation and spine angle. Fuller hip rotation is also making a big comeback in rotational swings and fuller motion there creates more variables and puts more demands on hand/arm/wrist coordination whereas hip turn restriction removed a few variables. All things considered and especially when bigger turns and more power generation are considered in today's game, there is plenty of challenge for the arms/hands/wrists in the rotational swing. For example in my own swing which has always been highly rotational and kept the clubface relatively square, sometimes just picking up and swinging a different club made my release so much more powerful and efficient and once I had that feeling, I could transfer it to own clubs and swing just as well with them. These considerations are, I believe, why rotational swingers on tour with lots of speed drastically curtail the length of their swings with irons and particularly with shorter ones. It is still difficult to synch all of the hand/wrist/arm motions with a shorter arc and having to precisely control a descending blow. All in all, I think that AJ Bonar has a strong point when says that you hit the ball with your hands independant of swing type and you always will. I think there's a lot of truth to that. This begs the question, would learning to full swing more with the hands, arm, and wrists help people learn to do a better rotational swing? And I think that that is actually possibly true and that once people had a very good sense of how to synchronize the release of the club, they might be able to adapt what they have understood better to a rotational motion. Which is better? Well I think that in invidividual cases either one might be better. If people are naturally gifted with feeling things with their hands, arms and wrists, a swing focussing on that might be best especially if they are just recreational golfers. If you are going to be a high ranking amateur or tour pro in today's game, rotational is probably better on average but there might be exceptions for gifted individuals. For example, in a non-golf example the King of the Court in softball could generate unbelievable power and accuracy with a motion heavily utilizing his upper extremities with a small body motion. It's been proven in any case that for any golfer leverage is largely coming through your hands arms, and wrists with a minor portion being added through everything else. Obviously also, if you have limitations on rotation, less rotational is better and can still be highly effective. Everything I have said above though just serves to highlight what I said earlier. The two biggest challenges in the swing (especially rotational, but either one) are the transition and the release. Not coincidentally, these phases are where the hands/arms/wrists require the most coordination especially on very full swings and in all good swings they go through constant adjustment. These are the areas that should most be emphasized in instruction in my opinion for any type of swing. The fact that this often isn't the case, has turned golf instruction largely into a have and have not situation where if people manage to figure these areas out they are good to go and everybody else is spending significant time in the "doghouse" of poor ball striking. If you look at the motion that Pratt is making, it may appear easy-ish but if you consider all of the adjustments that his hand/arms/wrists are making and that those adjustments are highly coordinated with the motion of his trunk, the importance of those adjustments becomes clear. Cheers.
@@GolfTestDummy No worries at all about replying but I just wanted to make sure that you were able to see my answer to your question in case I need to repost. By the way, in conclusion to what I said if that wasn't clear, no I don't think that you're off the wall at all in your thoughts. Cheers.
@@GolfTestDummy i can perhaps explain it in a metaphorical sense a reality that is beyond what is perceptible to the senses of golfers themselves. To me a wave takes on an elliptical shape which is an elongated circle stretch into an oval. We also see elliptical shapes in our galaxie and hurricane. Even the hands placed on the golf club takes on an elliptical shape. So by imagining you are drawing and elliptical shape of your golf club with your hands and body all working together; the energy from your body and even the ground will immediately transfer the elliptical shape to the travel head of your club to the ball on the ground When anyone try to explain a golf swing; the words have to become obscure because the energy of Actions and Reaction are one and the same and takes place at the exact same moment of less then 1&1/2 second time and space. Little wonder it difficult to explain to golfers how to swing their clubs as the answer is definitely obscured and often misunderstood by the golfer Why because even the most elite players put Action on the trail side of their body when Reaction can only have been applied. And injures such as yours do occur because of this. Crazy I know but the golf swing is inside each and every one of us. And for myself it has been a fun adventure exploring it. Cheers
It may sound nuts....... But honestly, that concept is similar to the heart of what I'm trying to say in these videos, haha. That we can see or even feel a circle, and once we do, if we just focus our intentions on that, the subconscious and the body will figure out on its own how to manifest that into reality. And even if it's not a perfect circle or ellipse, the conscious mind being focused on that simple task, will make its best attempt, and over time, given the same command, will find a way to make it a better version of itself little by little. Simple, but effective and beautiful.
"In theory", moving the club in a circle will work. However, in reality this is in fact what many golfers are trying to do and failing miserably which is why so many attempt to fall back on mechanics. For short swings it works because the "hard work" in a longer swing and especially with a long club is already done by the lower half of the swing. By hard work, I mean preparing in transition to maintain hip depth and flatten the shaft which are both necessary for the best strikes with longer clubs/swings. In fact, moving the club in a circle never really worked for you either, even in the "Make the Circle" video because you never really achieved these things. The simple reason for this is that the club does not move in a circle in a proper swing in terms of what the golfer does to it, but it does do so in physical reality. In other words, the appearance of it moving in a circle is a sort of illusion in terms of what it takes to physically make it happen. This is what has the golf world completely discombobulated. The reason for this is pretty simple and yet obviously a little elusive to understand. If you think about it you'll realize that the arms are kind of towing the body open on the backswing and then the body is towing the arms along on the dowswing while it opens. So a simple reversal of the backswing motion will throw the arms and club toward the front of the body and into a very steep position which is all wrong and especially as the swings/clubs get longer. This is exactly what most people will do on with longer swings/clubs in attempting to trace a circle which is just reverse the backswing motion in order to keep the motion symmetrical which leads to very poor results. Therefore the crux of the issue is that several moves that counter the high and steep tendency all have to take place in very short order during the transition. These moves are a combination of several things but I guarantee you that they happen in every really good golf swing and if you do them, then and only then can you effectively "make a circle" for longer clubs/swings. These moves are a quick combination of producing trail shoulder drop (moves downward faster than forward) which involves side bend and back arch in the early downswing and almost simutaneously changing the orientation of the trail arm and trail hand to let the club fall more behind the rotation of the body (flatten the shaft). These moves become, as previously stated, more important as the swing/club gets longer and the errors from not doing them become bigger. More experienced golfers often complete the body portion but have difficulty with the arm/hand portion of these motions. The arm/hand motions are more important for longer clubs/swings where flattening the shaft becomes more important. This is the simple reason that many experienced golfers find something like a 7-iron much easier to hit than a 3-wood (driver is off of a tee so that helps), because the body part of these motions is more obvious to experienced golfers but the arm/hand part is much harder to understand/reproduce and therefore it is hard to get a really good plane into the ball for which these arm/hand motions are essential. I know that this is all anathema to you because you are trying to move away from mechanics. However, I 100% guarantee you that what I have written is the absolute truth and there is no way around it and it remains the reason that most golfers will struggle to really hit the ball well consistently. The idea that you can just rotate back and through or just trace a circle is completely false in some very important senses. An important note is that the hand motion associated with the flattening move is accomplished properly only by having a relaxed grip as the club shaft actually has to be free to drop somewhat and the club will actually roll slightly more into the forefinger portion of the trail hand as this happens to let the club fall behind the motion. So then how do you learn/master these complexities for better striking and more power with longer clubs/swings. Some people have been coming up with some pretty good drills to help "feel" these motions in an "all-in-one" type of fashion". Search out "Can GOLF really be this EASY" by Steve Johnston for an excellent drill to help learn trail shoulder lowering and shaft flattening at the same time. This guy has been coming up with some pretty good and simple stuff to help learn and understand these moves. Cheers.
I agree and disagree, lol. By that I mean, some points I agree, and some I don't. Not necessarily, anyway. And by "not necessarily", I mean that if a person can play good golf, and they don't agree with me, then how can I argue? I can't argue against all of the mechanical knowledge that you have in all of your comments. You clearly know more about that than the vast majority of us. But in this comment you said something to the effect of, people can't make a circle and that's why they default back to mechanics. But assuming that's true, then I would say the reason that they don't improve, and we haven't in decades, is because getting bogged down in such heady, complex stuff, usually compounds the issues. Of course, it's super important to have people that understand the mechanics, so I'd never say mechanics are useless. They're extremely useful. One thing I would also say is that your comment lines up with tons of modern coaching. The mention of shallowing the shaft is definitely a popular term. But, in a simplified vein of thought, why would the shaft need to drop and shallow, unless it went back on the wrong plane to start with? That, I believe, is the core argument in the SPS. You mentioned my steep downswing and how I wasn't able to fix it with SPS, but at the end of the day, I ask myself; What's the point of any swing? To get consistent, sound, good ball flights. If I get that, then why am I trying so hard to destroy it, and rebuild it? More distance? Sure. But really, what average golfer has that kind of time? Or dedication? Or desire to spend every spare moment grinding? That's for someone that is a pro or can quit their job to chase becoming a pro. Biomechanical Optimization is for elite players who have that kind of time to dedicate, but to people who just want to break 80 and enjoy it in what time they have, maybe instruction needs to be broken up into 2 categories. PGA Tour and everyone else. And I'm not saying accept mediocrity. Never. Never ever. I'm a grinder. I don't want mediocre. But at the same time, if you want a million dollar house, and you make 50k a year, you either have to make more money, or spend lots of years saving up. And the average person doesn't want to spend years on having a more textbook sound swing and then find out that they have to maintain it constantly. When I started this channel, my goal was to bring some of the simpler, less conventional approaches to light. I've lost sight of that at times. I've had plenty of people tell me they love it, and plenty that hate it, lol. You're an absolute great commentor on this channel and I'm very grateful. Please keep the mechanics coming because, like I said, we're all different, and whereas making a circle works for me, it might be total trash to others. Clearly, mechanical instruction works great for lots of the pros today. And George Gankas has a big following for a reason.
That's my point also. It's paralyzing. It all happens, but I've come to believe that focusing on making a particular shape or motion with the club will inherently put your body in all the right positions for you personally, without all of the massive amounts of biomechanical thought and focus.
@@GolfTestDummy just have your lead side do all the Action from start to finish and your trail side do all the Reaction behind whatever shape you make and you will prevent yourself from harming your body. Cheers
Reminds me of cutting weeds with an old school weed eater. Nothing more than a big blade on a stick. You just swing it in a circle a nd cut the grass. Same.thing with the golf club. You're just cutting the grass under the ball. Really the best swing is one that builds from that chipping motion you're talking about. doesn't change through impact. Just gets longer. Sound information. Thanks for putting it out there.
@@GolfTestDummy no doubt. Pete cowen talks about drawing the circle or golf swing. You might want to check that out as well. Look up pete cowen how to swing the golf club. Its from about 10 years ago but solid point about drawing the circle
Like Nike says "Just do it". There are far too many "experts" these days that tear things apart and try to rebuild it their way and Golf is up there and TH-cam is full of them. I could be wrong but does anyone think Scottie Scheffler was watching TH-cam videos to stop him coming over the top or how to cure fat shots last Saturday night ?
Haha, it's refreshing to see something a little out of the norm. I'm sure people would his fundamentals are still really good, and I'm sure that's true. But, when you really boil it down, if you can hit it well, it doesn't matter.
Hey can body parts get out of position during the golfswing ? Yep . True for everyone on the planet . Inorder to fix anything you must understand the problem then apply a task or repeatative motion to rectify. Chop it up analyze it and apply corrective action. We are not pinocchio without strings true but we all sure as hell are not born with Scotty Schefler like skills. Positions in the golfswing are just as important as positions in the bedroom. I'm not buying your injury or time excuses anymore so get to work Chad. Awesome simulator now all you need is a mans golfbag.
Definitely ridding your mind of too many swing thoughts is the way to go. Worrying about swing positions will ruin you, your body is smart, it knows how to move. It just needs to know what you want to do, i.e., the direction you want the swing towards, and it will figure out the rest.it May take a little time for it to get use to that, but it will figure it out, if you let it.
This is one of the best videos on the Ernest Jones method. There is power in simplicity. Thank you.
Much appreciated Rick, and I absolutely agree. Simple is powerful.
As a mid-handicapper in my mid-seventies, and having played golf for 60 years, I've tried many swing thoughts and moves over the years trying to improve distance and consistency. Some worked for a while, some didn't. In the end I've found that provided the basic setup (stance, grip, ball position) is ok, a simple swing such as 'the circle' works best, giving straight and *repeatable* strikes -- maybe not the longest, but certainly the most reliable. In addition, I've found a tip from Danny Maude very good: keep the grip light and the wrists loose, and imagine you're trying to flick a thick rope from side to side i.e. to the trail side during the backswing, and the lead side during the downswing. This ensures a good wrist hinge, promoting fast clubhead speed through the ball. Try it - it works!
I will definitely give that a go, thanks. Danny Maude usually has some of the best content out there.
I finally just focused on half shots with my 9 iron helped me more than full swings ever did. I placed club impact tape a head length behind the ball on the mat and try to not hit the tape for ball first focus. I was getting consistent compression. Then I realized I can do it home on the carpet.
It’s the simple aha moments I love but then the facepalm of why wasn’t I doing this before.
That's awesome. It's just like anything else, right? Shooting a basketball, driving a car, cooking a meal. Start small and simple, get that down, then increase from there.
Glad you did this follow up vid. Makes perfect sense. Take care, bud.
Thanks! More coming, so stay tuned!
I came across a few of your videos from 2 years ago where you tried on the Jim V swing. Why did you stop using it? We’re you just trying it out and planned on going back to your original swing. Seemed like it was working well for you! I am going to start his program this month and your videos really helped me get there!
Thanks Jake. I've actually made a few videos explaining because I've gotten this question so often. I've tried to do a lot of swing method reviews in an effort to bring the unconventional to light. Lots of trials on this channel, lol.
@@GolfTestDummy thanks for the response. I’ll have to go back and take a look at those videos!
Good stuff
Makes a lot of sense, thanks. I have difficulties feeling or knowing where the clubhead is at any particular moment in the swing. Seems as if this ''forces" you to be aware of where the clubhead is. Can't wait to try this.
There's an old tip from Jack Nicklaus and Jim Flick. If you can't feel the weight of the clubhead and know where it is at all times, check your grip pressure. Don't hold it like an egg, but don't hold it too tight either.
@@GolfTestDummy Going to work on it, thanks again.
Thank you! Great reminder. It’s easy to sink into the minutia
Got that right. I've been there so many times.
Just proves the old adage … “less is more”. Definitely going out and give the circle approach a go. Thanks Chad … you’re definitely on too something here 👍🏻
Less is MOHR..... marketing genius, right? George I'd love to hear your results in the comments.
Crazy you mention drawing the circle. Thought I was the only one that does that. It works for me.
It's really an awesome swing thought that puts movements with the body on the plate of the subconscious.
Hi Chad. My one simple thought: Swing the weight of your club head back and forth with your little trail finger. It took me until now to finally figure it out. Try it. You will love it as I do. And if you make a video on it please mention my name. Cheers 😃⛳️🥂👍❤️
Every time I get paralysis by analysis I go back to the concept of swinging the clubhead. I usually start hitting nice clean shots.
Well said sir. I just try enjoy the game so set up and just swing upper arms back the forward and let the club set the wrists. Simple. Might not hit it miles but I can enjoy the game and not worry about ruining my body. Arms should always dictate how the body moves. Ask someone to swing a club in a circle and they can do it really easily. Tell them to do it again and rotate, shift weight, fire hips while still trying to make that circle and watch chaos ensue. As the man himself always said. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. Keep up the good work sir 👍
Well said, and thanks for the support!
Good video, thanks Chad 👍🏌️
You got it BSR!
BIG CIRCLE.
Great video, the old KISS Keep It Simple Stupid.
Makes sense, very well explained. Let’s face it, we all have different body types, so the mechanics will vary with each individual. Trying to copy someone else is flawed unless we have the same body mechanics
CHAD, I get the feeling you are one good dude.....I have been around for close to 8 decades so I have seen a few,,,,,I would say you are the ''Everyman'....you have me swinging in a circle and it is 32 outside. Felt good and natural.making/ seeing that circle in my minds eye.....one thing that really surprised me was that I didn't have that hit/ kill the ball thought....BE SAFE, Ron
Thanks Ron! It's liberating and simple and really does take the "work" out of it.
Well in a multi-plane swing you are trying to be on the address shaft plane or on a parallel plane at all times in the swing. Now if you accept the premise that a pure reversal of motion on the downswing naturally steepens the shaft plane especially with longer clubs (this is definitely true for the reasons I cited). Therefore to balance the effect of that steepening with no adjustment at all would require you to swing back on a plane or parallel plane that is flatter than your address plane so that when you reverse direction it steepens back onto a plane parellel to your shaft plane at the beginning of the downswing. However with most people's address shaft planes this is a very difficult and awkward thing to attempt. Try it and I think that you'll understand why the accepted wisdom is to swing back on a plane that is always parallel to your address plane and then flatten it (because it steepens naturally at the top) back to a plane that is again parallel and eventually falls back onto your address shaft plane. Glad that you liked the Strawberry shortcake thing, I thought that was a really good idea as well. Speaking of that, it's about time for my dessert :-) Cheers.
I like the idea! Gonna give it a go, I think about my circle..but I hate that I draw it without maintaining lag 🤦♂️😂 see you next week!
Try hands back to draw it, slight pause, then body pulls the arms through to draw circle toward target.
Circle baby!
Well, I understand your frustration and point of view and please don't understand me as trying to be anything but helpful. I think that I answered the "why would the shaft be on the wrong plane if it went back on the right one" question but I understand that it was probably easy to miss. It has to do with what I mentioned about how the arm to the torso is different in the backswing versus the downswing. Arms pulling torso around versus torso pulling arms on the downswing. This means that if you just reversed the motion you made on the downswing with no side bend, back arch and arm hand adjustment, the arms will be thrown forward by rotation IMMEDIATELY (because they are pulled around by the rotation) and end up high and steep coming down. Also in golf, you have to square the club so you need to get the trail shoulder in behind the motion of the swinging arms in order to rotate the clubface and square it but if the trail shoulder is thrown forward and high, squaring is impossible without early extending and flipping the club.
But you must understand that the whole problem is caused by this arm/torso backswing/downswing difference causing steepness and the need to align the trail shoulder and square the club. Baseball players naturally align the trailer shoulder and flatten the bat because these are power moves but they don't need to worry about squaring the bat. So when they learn golf, they have tremendous speed but often slice terribly because they don't know how to square the face.
It IS possible to just swing back on the same plane and back down if you understand how to make the necessary adjustments to the trail arm and hand position as you get to the top of the swing so that the shaft will automatically flatten and the trail shoulder will align (assuming you have side bend and back arch, these are essential) and then simply by reversing direction the club will fall on a good plane and be able to be squared. But without those adjustments it won't happen. This would take some detailed knowledge of what needs to change in the downswing to make this happen. Relaxing one's trail hand grip quite a bit at the beginning of the transition on a very full swing goes a long way towards helping one feel several of the motions that need take place for shaft flattening.
By the way, these same things happen in the SPS. Shoulder drop through side bend and back arch, trail shoulder alignment and letting the shaft flatten and the club fall behind the hands all still happen just in a slightly different way. This was the cause of your problem with plane in the SPS because you never got your trail shoulder and arm in a position where you could flatten the shaft and move back on plane.
Your frustations with mechanics and instruction are why I mentioned the Johnston videos and drills. I realize that the complexities are overwhelming to a degree so I was wanting to offer something simple that helps reduce them to a simple feeling or two that encompass the required movements. The movements themselves are not that complicated and not that many but when you realize that 4 or 5 of them happen in a fraction of a second during the transition, it makes sense that people need something to help them feel what is actually a number of things going on in simple fashion. I was excited about his approach because it was immediately evident to me that he was greatly simplifying things that most golfers struggle with significantly. These movements really are the secret sauce of the golf swing and why pros are so hard to copy. There are a bunch of things happening during the milliseconds of transition that are very hard to see and emulate but they are happening in all great swings and additionally I think that a lot of good players have just learned to feel them naturally and don't even full realize that they do them. I have studied these things for a long time and I can assure you that some version of these movements is essential for your best ball striking and impossible without them. Those who say they don't do them just don't notice them but show me their swings and I will show you that they do.
No matter how you slice it though, the golf swing is complex and in my case, that's part of what I love about the game. The rewards of making something so challenging seem fluid and effortless at times is intoxicating, to me at least. All the best. Cheers :-)
No doubt that all of those things happen with your body as described, assuming you have normal flexibility, range of motion, ample musculature and you have all of your parts, lol. I knew what you meant as far as going back and coming through, and how different actions are involved in different ways, but the plane thing we were talking about, that's backwards from what I said. I said, why would a plane need to drop down on a different plane, unless it went back on the wrong plane? It doesn't matter though, lol, because I'm not on plane in either place. Like you said though; I can hit good shots still because I make compensations like changing wrist angles or moving my body different on the downswing. Which are considered bad compensations that rob power. That's evident in my driver distance... haha. I saw the Steve Johnston video you mentioned. The "strawberry mousse" episode from a while back. Great trick for rythym and tempo.
I get really good results with my 3 wood picturing the circle and to a degree the driver too. But not quite the same feeling with the irons but i agree it’s a good swing thought I’ve found.
Irons are the same concept for me, but they do require a tweak. Off a tee, the bottom of the circle, and the pitch or slant of the circle is one way. But anything on the turf requires the circle to bottom out AFTER the ball. So use your mental imagery to shift the circle forward a bit, and the lowest part of the circle is actually about 3 inches, give or take, after the ball.
@@GolfTestDummy I’ll give that a go
Every golfer has his own ability and goals. When u stating here is a great concept up to a certain point. I’m pretty good golfer playing from the white tee. I can hit every club dead straight if I only swing about 60% of my full speed. Which is totally fine for the white tees hitting 7i for 160yd. But when I moved up to the blue tee or to the black tees I have to start swing 80%+ of my full speed, this is where I start to struggle. Which leads me in search to have a better swing or improve my form. To my point is at some point you need to introduce variables to your swing to gain distance. I feel like we are all a much better golf if we just swing it nice and slow or a comfortable rhythm. But we want hit it farer just because we want to or now we need to hit our 7i 180 to GIR.
I can relate, haha. Honestly, the blue and black tees at a lot of the more modern courses are too much for the majority of golfers. The average handicap is about 18 or 20. 10 handicap to 40 handicap represents the vast majority of the golfing population. Anybody in single digits should not be looking to anybody other than an in person pro to see on a regular basis if they are serious about improving and have the time to devote to lots of hard work.
@@GolfTestDummy yep, white tee at most 7iron in. Black tee I have to hit a 4 iron or 3 hybrid. Those clubs are definitely not forgiving. If a perfect shot will cause it to roll off the green. But I have recently switched to single length which it does help with some consistently. Im at a point which I need to get my driver to 280 carry or get good with my long irons. I was in hoping to find a new swing that can help my long iron game. But still searching
True, we need to STOP OVERTHINKING ! its like when we focus too much on the ball watching it... it always a bad hit. Same happens when we focus too much on things like my hand, how my finger feels on overlap or this or that.. how my feets are etc etc. You KNOW Chad, i was using for example 10 finger, then overlap, then interlock... and it was messing everytime my shots. So i definetly (i think) change now to 10 finger again cause i feel how it feels natural and i dont have to stop think how it feels when i overlap or interlock etc... so im making it simple. So thats one thing less i have to think and focus on. Now i feel all my hits soft and right on spot. My opinion ends there, we need to STOP OVERTHINKING the swing. TC amigo Chad.
Thanks Guss, and absolutely right. I'm a classic overthinker and get lost so often in unnecessary complexities.
I never think much about what my body is doing. I just turn and throw the club away from target, turn and throw the club to target.
Hey Chad, I know you have been struggling and had a lot of people comment (especially with the Norman stuff) about coming over the plane. I get it on my stuff, too, regardless of the shot result. I think you need to check out and test My Swing Evolution and his new over the top series. He’s doing a great job proving you can be over the top and play great golf. It can also help your mental side to just swing the club like you’re talking about here. Keep up the good work! ~ Craig
Haha, man you're in my head. I emailed Christo about a week or so ago. Come to think of it, after his first response, I haven't heard back yet. Very much agree with you that putting yourself out here in Tubeland leaves you open to slings and arrows. No biggie.
Hi Chad. I have followed Christo Garcia for 11 years and he frequently responds to whatever I write on his You Tube Channel just as you do.
I currently am enjoying watching Christo share his miracle OTT swing as well: and; would like to note that anyone can take advantage of his free month trail to learn more if they wish to. Cheers
I wish Christo would stop calling it Over the top, it’s over the backswing plane not your typical amateur OTT where the shoulder goes out instead of down.
@@maeu59 the OTT Christo is referring to is actually his club head taking a sharp clockwise turn during the transition from his backswing to his downswing; very briefly going over the top of his downswing.
He is finally admitting to himself that his practice OTT is deferent from his miracle OTT swing drills he does and teaches.
So your right his miracle OTT swing is not exactly like the OTT swing of his figure eight that he drills with.
I call it more of an Action/Reaction Golf Swing that I am working on now. Cheers
@@thomasfraser9072 yes I just feel him calling it OTT is not correct. His real swing doesn’t appear to go over the backswing plane at all. A true OTT swing is the right shoulder going out at the ball and cutting across, resulting in a slice. And the simplest way to fix that is with alignment and knowing how to aim.
Have you tried Ben Hogan's 5 lessons? What was your results?
Whewwwwww. Years ago, in a galaxy far, far away... haha. I read that book a few years after I first got into golf and it was what I used to learn a lot in the beginning. Back when I was younger, my swing was a lot more like Hogan's than now. And I could play pretty well, but I was inconsistent often. More often than I would like. The most consistency I've ever had was single plane.
@@GolfTestDummy the best round I ever had I was using what I learned from BH5L. But somehow I always come back to Moe Normans ways. It makes sense to my body.
Same here.
In reality Hogans book was all about how to not hit a hook. It doesn’t work for everybody. People got infatuated with Hogan due to his success, but said a lot of things in that book that he didn’t do himself. He also left a lot of detail out. I think it ruined more golfers than it helped.
There's definitely truth in that. The title Nicklaus had for his system, Golf My Way, was the most truthful and honest title. After all, everybody's golf is "their way".
Hi GTD. I thought you might find this interesting. The video titled "Learn the Mike Austin THROW Release for Incredible Distance!" is really an excellent demontration about how a good release happens. The kind of speed that he is developing in this throw (spinning the club) is the way that power really develops in all really powerful and effective golf swing. You can really see in this motion a couple of things that I have written about before.
First is the bending or misaligning of levers and then straightening or realigning of same. Notice how his arms align with each other as the trail arm straightens and the club is thrown out into alignment with this system (in a swing this would be beyond impact) and his trail knee moves around as his body is spinning on its axis through the release (bent lever system of the body aligns to rotate around an axis and release built up rotational power). This is how you maximally capitalize on rotational power. Additionally as everything aligns and is released, the toe of the club is released around the shaft so this throw produces automatic squaring of the face.
Secondly, notice that during his windup, his shoulder drops down and the club shaft flattens out and drops behind the release motion such that the club shaft falls well down and behind his torso before he starts the release motion. This is the shaft flattening motion in all great golf swings.
If someone can produce a throw just like this of the club and then bring this motion/feeling down to the ball (not that hard to do) looking for that same sense of causing the shaft to "helicopter" as a result of the "throw" they would produce tremendous and controllable power and easy squaring of the face.
This effect can look different in swings with somewhat different body motions but this type of motion (and this feeling) is happening in all powerful effective golf swings and Pratt is reducing it here to its essence.
I know that Shawn Clement teaches and recommends club throwing and you have possibly tried this before. However, although I think highly of Shawn and his instruction I believe he makes some slight errors in some of the imagery that he uses to teach and inadvertently creates some confusion.
I made a comment once on something that I felt was wrong and his answer did not directly address the point but said something about how his swing was in a state of evolution and he was using generalities to get people moving in the right direction. To be specific, the comment was about his grass whip training technique where he walks and swings and then demonstrates the same motion with a golf club and then sets up and hits a shot with the implication being that the motion is very similar and to me even implying that the release is quite similar. However, if you analyse his release when a ball is struck, it is night and day different than that demonstrated motion. The grass whip motion is useful for teaching rhythm, weight shift, and natural body motion but the approach into "impact" should be realistically shown and explained.
The release that Shawn demonstrates before the actual strike would not produce much power and/or would not square the face. This is because in order for those things to happen, the motion of the trail arm must fall right behind the motion of the lead arm and shoulder WELL BEFORE impact. This happens in Shawn's real golf swing (and looks kind of funny because of his weird backswing; slow him down through impact and you'll see what I mean) but not in the demonstrations. I do believe that this can create a lot of confusion for people because this area of the proper release is a source of massive confusion in the golf world.
The same thing happens in my opinion when Shawn demonstrates throwing of the club, it is generally not bad but not fully accurate as far as a real golf swing is concerned. But, what Pratt is showing here is accurate because the trail arm and hand are fully aligning before the "impact" portion of the motion and if brought down would produce a powerful square strike. This is nothing against Shawn; these aspects of the swing are extremely difficult to fully understand and encapsulate and also extremely easy to get somewhat wrong even when you are intensely versed and immersed in them. I personally have stumbled around for many years through all of this stuff and also gone in many circles (in part because of all of the confusion that is out there) but I know that what I am sharing now is what I have felt when I have hit the ball the longest, straightest, and best of my life and involves the REAL nature of the release.
I know that this is a lot of explanation which I am using to give context to a very simple and I believe very powerful concept. I am certain that I could show you the employment of this concept in every effective swing from Clement, to Venetos, to Norman and Del Barrio to tour pros. I am trying to give you stuff which is very simple and cuts to the crux of the matter. It addresses a ton of mechanical aspects of the swing but has reduced them down to something that I think virtually anyone can understand and employ, Hope that you find it helpful. Cheers.
Your insights are always very in depth and well written. From the standpoint of what's actually taking place, I'm not sure I've read anything with more thought and depth. I'd say this in regards to the grass whip and other similar teaching tools. There is a galaxy of teachers out there. All shapes and sizes and methods. The biggest majority of them teach technically and from a basically similar school of thought and they employ the latest technology and tons and tons of data. To some people, modern and conventional instruction can help. To others, seeing and visualizing with relatable tasks might be the only way to get some people "close" to good. It's a much less technical way to teach, but, even that is not right for everybody. But, in the professional world, there are many swings that, even though they look different, do in fact employ several similar components, and nobody can deny that. So, when you're talking about reality, and what's actually happening, you're right. The proof is on video and in pictures. But in my experience, as an amateur, I've seen some really good golfers and played with some on course, and the biggest majority of them don't look like the swings I see on TV. They're quirky, different, seem "off" technically, etc. But man they can really shoot some awesome scores. I think a lot of coaches have taken a path to teach the majority of golfers, who shoot 90s or higher, and make them demonstrably better, and that's really all most of them want. At the end of the day, Shawn's students aren't pros, so he doesn't worry too much about making things technically perfect, just solid.
@@GolfTestDummyWell I guess that what I'm saying is that even if a swing looks weird, in order for it to produce a lot of power and hit it straight the principles of leverage will be similar and that swing will contain a lot of the elements of the motion that Pratt is making although depending upon things like adress position, spine tilt, hip turn, etc. they may appear somewhat different but those things will still be there. If a swing produces less power, then some of the elements that maximize leverage might be missing or altered. I've seen lots of people with odd quirky swings that can play a shortish course with low scores and hit the ball consistently and straight. Conversely, a lot of people can hit it a "country mile" but have very little consistent control of the face. That usually improves with shorter clubs so I've seen long hitters playing average courses well with nothing more than a 4-iron or so just so they can keep in on the property.
I totally agree that Shawn is trying to give his average golfer students some simple solid instruction. I just think that many students might be left to "fill in the blanks" of how to release properly. He is teaching it in generalities and the principles are sound. But for example, if they were copying Shawn's own swing and the way he releases in demonstrations and drills, and throwing, they would not hit good shots because Shawn does not actually release that way because of the particularities of his motion which is extremely vertical takeaway and upright plane, U-shaped clubhead motion, open clubface at the top, etc.. This means that he has what I would call "an expert flip" through impact especially with his irons, which he does EXTREMELY well but is very hard to imitate.
He then demonstrates with 2 people with extremely solid swings but who both swing quite differently from each other and very diferently from him but when he teaches how to do things, there is a kind of "one size fits all" narrative a lot of the time from what I can tell. Of course, I am talking about his free stuff and I could be wrong but I have had the sense that his paid subscription stuff is a fleshed out version of more of the same.
I am not singling out Shawn here except as an example. This kind of thing is to me a bugaboo of formal golf instruction.
My feeling is this:
First of all you can't teach the golf swing in a monolothic way at all because every significant difference in swing motion requires another complimentary motion. The exception is something like what Todd Graves is doing where you are literally teaching the same moves to everybody. Seocndly, the transition and the release are the two most important parts of the golf swing and should be taught in the most detail and not monolithically unless your system is monolithic but even then they need heavy coverage.The fact that these things are not done is the biggest reason in my opinion that a simple training aid like the Impact Snap sometimes does more for people's golf swings than years or sometimes even decades of golf instruction. Don't even get me started on ridiculous cliches like "if you have a good grip and address position, two thirds of the work is already done".
This is why I feel enthusiastic about what Pratt is showing. For me it has a certain level of simplicity and practical universality in the understanding of both the transiton and the release. It's application might need certain adjustments for an individual swing but it has quite a bit of direct appliction to all good swings. This is not the case for a lot of the instruction I see out there in my opinion resulting in a lot of confusion and very slow progress. Cheers.
I can agree with a lot of that. Here's a question I always find myself asking...
Modern instruction, for the most part, subscribes to the theory that a rotational swing is far superior because it's much more reliable than timing with hands, especially with regards to squaring the face. The reasoning behind being that if you keep the leading edge of the club "mimicking" the spine angle and the arms don't release until after impact, that all you have to do is rotate, and continue rotating, through the impact area. They say this is much easier to built consistency with.
Versus the alternative, which is a hands and arms dominant swing, that requires the timing of essentially and turning of the wrists to square up the face, and that is much harder to do consistently.
But if I think about it, my hands are much more sensitive and trained than my spine or hips or chest will ever be, right? And if my weight is off a bit, or I haven't quite rotated enough, or I've rotated too much, or my spine angle changes, or my shoulders aren't in sync, etc., then don't I have a very real chance of a shot not going to plan, much like poorly timed hands?
Mike Malaska made a video about different ways to swing the club, and he teaches a very hands first, impact first, leveraging of the wrists type swing. Jim Flick taught the same, as he was his mentor. Bob Toski taught the same, etc. Of course, lol, we're talking about old school teachers, and I'm juxtaposing them with the modern swing, but it's still fair to say that these guys were some of the best, most effective coaches, and Mike still is.
I guess my point is; Using your hands and arms has been generally labeled "bad" in recent years, while rotation first, leaving hands and arms out of it, has been labeled much more consistent, and the clear winner. But if I put my hands on the club, and maintain a relationship between my palms or back of my hand with the clubface, I trust my hands to bring it back square, much more than my lats, or my butt, or my hips, or my chest. Not to mention that it's harder for me to rotate without pain these days, lol.
Do you agree with that or am I off my rocker? Love to hear your thoughts.
@@GolfTestDummy Well I think that both ideas have merit for different reasons. Rotation, all things being equal is going to give a power advantage on average in today's power game at the highest level. There could be exceptions where somebody is extremely gifted at developing power with less body and very efficient arm and wrist motions. However, body rotation swings still require a lot of coordination of the arm, wrist, and hand motions. The idea that this isn't the case is to me a major fallacy and I would say that pretty much all really good ball strikers have very coordinated hand, wrist, and arm motions regardless of swing type.
When you rotate the body significantly, there is a heck of a lot going on that the arms and hands have to adjust to even if you mirror the spine angle wit the clubface. There is back arch and side bend on both sides of the swing and depending on the exact nature of the swing there is also side crunch, and spinal compression, not to mention, hip drive, also both shoulder joints move independantly back and forth to increase turn and speed up rotation. There is also knee rotation and plane and it's relationship to hip rotation and spine angle. Fuller hip rotation is also making a big comeback in rotational swings and fuller motion there creates more variables and puts more demands on hand/arm/wrist coordination whereas hip turn restriction removed a few variables. All things considered and especially when bigger turns and more power generation are considered in today's game, there is plenty of challenge for the arms/hands/wrists in the rotational swing. For example in my own swing which has always been highly rotational and kept the clubface relatively square, sometimes just picking up and swinging a different club made my release so much more powerful and efficient and once I had that feeling, I could transfer it to own clubs and swing just as well with them. These considerations are, I believe, why rotational swingers on tour with lots of speed drastically curtail the length of their swings with irons and particularly with shorter ones. It is still difficult to synch all of the hand/wrist/arm motions with a shorter arc and having to precisely control a descending blow.
All in all, I think that AJ Bonar has a strong point when says that you hit the ball with your hands independant of swing type and you always will. I think there's a lot of truth to that. This begs the question, would learning to full swing more with the hands, arm, and wrists help people learn to do a better rotational swing? And I think that that is actually possibly true and that once people had a very good sense of how to synchronize the release of the club, they might be able to adapt what they have understood better to a rotational motion.
Which is better? Well I think that in invidividual cases either one might be better. If people are naturally gifted with feeling things with their hands, arms and wrists, a swing focussing on that might be best especially if they are just recreational golfers. If you are going to be a high ranking amateur or tour pro in today's game, rotational is probably better on average but there might be exceptions for gifted individuals. For example, in a non-golf example the King of the Court in softball could generate unbelievable power and accuracy with a motion heavily utilizing his upper extremities with a small body motion. It's been proven in any case that for any golfer leverage is largely coming through your hands arms, and wrists with a minor portion being added through everything else. Obviously also, if you have limitations on rotation, less rotational is better and can still be highly effective.
Everything I have said above though just serves to highlight what I said earlier. The two biggest challenges in the swing (especially rotational, but either one) are the transition and the release. Not coincidentally, these phases are where the hands/arms/wrists require the most coordination especially on very full swings and in all good swings they go through constant adjustment. These are the areas that should most be emphasized in instruction in my opinion for any type of swing. The fact that this often isn't the case, has turned golf instruction largely into a have and have not situation where if people manage to figure these areas out they are good to go and everybody else is spending significant time in the "doghouse" of poor ball striking. If you look at the motion that Pratt is making, it may appear easy-ish but if you consider all of the adjustments that his hand/arms/wrists are making and that those adjustments are highly coordinated with the motion of his trunk, the importance of those adjustments becomes clear. Cheers.
@@GolfTestDummy No worries at all about replying but I just wanted to make sure that you were able to see my answer to your question in case I need to repost. By the way, in conclusion to what I said if that wasn't clear, no I don't think that you're off the wall at all in your thoughts. Cheers.
Hi Chad if you could work on drawing a huge wave with your club head; you probably got something there
Explain the wave Thomas. I'm intrigued.
@@GolfTestDummy i can perhaps explain it in a metaphorical sense a reality that is beyond what is perceptible to the senses of golfers themselves.
To me a wave takes on an elliptical shape which is an elongated circle stretch into an oval. We also see elliptical shapes in our galaxie and hurricane. Even the hands placed on the golf club takes on an elliptical shape. So by imagining you are drawing and elliptical shape of your golf club with your hands and body all working together; the energy from your body and even the ground will immediately transfer the elliptical shape to the travel head of your club to the ball on the ground
When anyone try to explain a golf swing; the words have to become obscure because the energy of Actions and Reaction are one and the same and takes place at the exact same moment of less then 1&1/2 second time and space. Little wonder it difficult to explain to golfers how to swing their clubs as the answer is definitely obscured and often misunderstood by the golfer
Why because even the most elite players put Action on the trail side of their body when Reaction can only have been applied. And injures such as yours do occur because of this.
Crazy I know but the golf swing is inside each and every one of us. And for myself it has been a fun adventure exploring it. Cheers
It may sound nuts.......
But honestly, that concept is similar to the heart of what I'm trying to say in these videos, haha. That we can see or even feel a circle, and once we do, if we just focus our intentions on that, the subconscious and the body will figure out on its own how to manifest that into reality. And even if it's not a perfect circle or ellipse, the conscious mind being focused on that simple task, will make its best attempt, and over time, given the same command, will find a way to make it a better version of itself little by little. Simple, but effective and beautiful.
"In theory", moving the club in a circle will work. However, in reality this is in fact what many golfers are trying to do and failing miserably which is why so many attempt to fall back on mechanics. For short swings it works because the "hard work" in a longer swing and especially with a long club is already done by the lower half of the swing. By hard work, I mean preparing in transition to maintain hip depth and flatten the shaft which are both necessary for the best strikes with longer clubs/swings. In fact, moving the club in a circle never really worked for you either, even in the "Make the Circle" video because you never really achieved these things. The simple reason for this is that the club does not move in a circle in a proper swing in terms of what the golfer does to it, but it does do so in physical reality. In other words, the appearance of it moving in a circle is a sort of illusion in terms of what it takes to physically make it happen. This is what has the golf world completely discombobulated. The reason for this is pretty simple and yet obviously a little elusive to understand. If you think about it you'll realize that the arms are kind of towing the body open on the backswing and then the body is towing the arms along on the dowswing while it opens. So a simple reversal of the backswing motion will throw the arms and club toward the front of the body and into a very steep position which is all wrong and especially as the swings/clubs get longer. This is exactly what most people will do on with longer swings/clubs in attempting to trace a circle which is just reverse the backswing motion in order to keep the motion symmetrical which leads to very poor results. Therefore the crux of the issue is that several moves that counter the high and steep tendency all have to take place in very short order during the transition. These moves are a combination of several things but I guarantee you that they happen in every really good golf swing and if you do them, then and only then can you effectively "make a circle" for longer clubs/swings. These moves are a quick combination of producing trail shoulder drop (moves downward faster than forward) which involves side bend and back arch in the early downswing and almost simutaneously changing the orientation of the trail arm and trail hand to let the club fall more behind the rotation of the body (flatten the shaft). These moves become, as previously stated, more important as the swing/club gets longer and the errors from not doing them become bigger. More experienced golfers often complete the body portion but have difficulty with the arm/hand portion of these motions. The arm/hand motions are more important for longer clubs/swings where flattening the shaft becomes more important. This is the simple reason that many experienced golfers find something like a 7-iron much easier to hit than a 3-wood (driver is off of a tee so that helps), because the body part of these motions is more obvious to experienced golfers but the arm/hand part is much harder to understand/reproduce and therefore it is hard to get a really good plane into the ball for which these arm/hand motions are essential. I know that this is all anathema to you because you are trying to move away from mechanics. However, I 100% guarantee you that what I have written is the absolute truth and there is no way around it and it remains the reason that most golfers will struggle to really hit the ball well consistently. The idea that you can just rotate back and through or just trace a circle is completely false in some very important senses. An important note is that the hand motion associated with the flattening move is accomplished properly only by having a relaxed grip as the club shaft actually has to be free to drop somewhat and the club will actually roll slightly more into the forefinger portion of the trail hand as this happens to let the club fall behind the motion. So then how do you learn/master these complexities for better striking and more power with longer clubs/swings. Some people have been coming up with some pretty good drills to help "feel" these motions in an "all-in-one" type of fashion". Search out "Can GOLF really be this EASY" by Steve Johnston for an excellent drill to help learn trail shoulder lowering and shaft flattening at the same time. This guy has been coming up with some pretty good and simple stuff to help learn and understand these moves. Cheers.
I agree and disagree, lol. By that I mean, some points I agree, and some I don't. Not necessarily, anyway. And by "not necessarily", I mean that if a person can play good golf, and they don't agree with me, then how can I argue? I can't argue against all of the mechanical knowledge that you have in all of your comments. You clearly know more about that than the vast majority of us. But in this comment you said something to the effect of, people can't make a circle and that's why they default back to mechanics. But assuming that's true, then I would say the reason that they don't improve, and we haven't in decades, is because getting bogged down in such heady, complex stuff, usually compounds the issues. Of course, it's super important to have people that understand the mechanics, so I'd never say mechanics are useless. They're extremely useful. One thing I would also say is that your comment lines up with tons of modern coaching. The mention of shallowing the shaft is definitely a popular term. But, in a simplified vein of thought, why would the shaft need to drop and shallow, unless it went back on the wrong plane to start with? That, I believe, is the core argument in the SPS. You mentioned my steep downswing and how I wasn't able to fix it with SPS, but at the end of the day, I ask myself; What's the point of any swing? To get consistent, sound, good ball flights. If I get that, then why am I trying so hard to destroy it, and rebuild it? More distance? Sure. But really, what average golfer has that kind of time? Or dedication? Or desire to spend every spare moment grinding? That's for someone that is a pro or can quit their job to chase becoming a pro. Biomechanical Optimization is for elite players who have that kind of time to dedicate, but to people who just want to break 80 and enjoy it in what time they have, maybe instruction needs to be broken up into 2 categories. PGA Tour and everyone else. And I'm not saying accept mediocrity. Never. Never ever. I'm a grinder. I don't want mediocre. But at the same time, if you want a million dollar house, and you make 50k a year, you either have to make more money, or spend lots of years saving up. And the average person doesn't want to spend years on having a more textbook sound swing and then find out that they have to maintain it constantly. When I started this channel, my goal was to bring some of the simpler, less conventional approaches to light. I've lost sight of that at times. I've had plenty of people tell me they love it, and plenty that hate it, lol. You're an absolute great commentor on this channel and I'm very grateful. Please keep the mechanics coming because, like I said, we're all different, and whereas making a circle works for me, it might be total trash to others. Clearly, mechanical instruction works great for lots of the pros today. And George Gankas has a big following for a reason.
It’s amazing anyone could swing a club thinking about all of this.
@@GolfTestDummy Fantastic give and take conversation.
Now how about drawing a huge wave with you club head. I tried it and it works.! Cheers 😃👍⛳️🥂
That's my point also. It's paralyzing. It all happens, but I've come to believe that focusing on making a particular shape or motion with the club will inherently put your body in all the right positions for you personally, without all of the massive amounts of biomechanical thought and focus.
@@GolfTestDummy just have your lead side do all the Action from start to finish and your trail side do all the Reaction behind whatever shape you make and you will prevent yourself from harming your body. Cheers
Reminds me of cutting weeds with an old school weed eater. Nothing more than a big blade on a stick. You just swing it in a circle a nd cut the grass. Same.thing with the golf club. You're just cutting the grass under the ball. Really the best swing is one that builds from that chipping motion you're talking about. doesn't change through impact. Just gets longer. Sound information. Thanks for putting it out there.
Damn right Kevin. When is the last time you took a weed eater lesson? Lol.
@@GolfTestDummy no doubt. Pete cowen talks about drawing the circle or golf swing. You might want to check that out as well. Look up pete cowen how to swing the golf club. Its from about 10 years ago but solid point about drawing the circle
Already have, lol. Was watching some of his stuff several weeks back. Love the no nonsense approach.
Like Nike says "Just do it".
There are far too many "experts" these days that tear things apart and try to rebuild it their way and Golf is up there and TH-cam is full of them. I could be wrong but does anyone think Scottie Scheffler was watching TH-cam videos to stop him coming over the top or how to cure fat shots last Saturday night ?
Haha, it's refreshing to see something a little out of the norm. I'm sure people would his fundamentals are still really good, and I'm sure that's true. But, when you really boil it down, if you can hit it well, it doesn't matter.
Ernest Jones,swing the clubhead, nothing new in golf,been taught since the 1920s.
That's right. I've made a few videos referencing Ernest Jones. Great stuff!
Check out Sam Golden square to square - "go to drill"
Sorry Sam Goulden
I'm definitely familiar with Sam's stuff, but I'll have to refresh on the go to drill. Thanks, I'll check it out!
Its not "the golf swing", its "my golf swing".
Very true. Love this thought.
If you have to think about ANYTHING in a golf swing you are doing it wrong.
Hey can body parts get out of position during the golfswing ? Yep . True for everyone on the planet . Inorder to fix anything you must understand the problem then apply a task or repeatative motion to rectify. Chop it up analyze it and apply corrective action. We are not pinocchio without strings true but we all sure as hell are not born with Scotty Schefler like skills. Positions in the golfswing are just as important as positions in the bedroom. I'm not buying your injury or time excuses anymore so get to work Chad. Awesome simulator now all you need is a mans golfbag.
Haha, yeah I'm just milking it.
Definitely ridding your mind of too many swing thoughts is the way to go. Worrying about swing positions will ruin you, your body is smart, it knows how to move. It just needs to know what you want to do, i.e., the direction you want the swing towards, and it will figure out the rest.it May take a little time for it to get use to that, but it will figure it out, if you let it.
Totally agree. Club-centered thoughts.