The Dark Knight - How to Be a Hero in an Upside Down World.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ย. 2024
- We look at how Batman in The Dark Knight shows us how to be a hero in an upside down world in the scene where kidnappers dress up their victims as perpetrators. We compare this story to Christ turning the tables over in the Temple to chase away the money changers.
The video was edited by Thomas Wijnaendts van Resandt of the Storytellers channel. / @storytellers1
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"So what makes Batman's actions different from the actions of some other mere rebel? So the first argument that comes is the most obvious one: He's not wearing hockey pads."
XD
@@dragonfriend6874 It’s true tho
Pageau is not the philosopher we want, but he's the philosopher we need...
Keep up God's Work, Jonathan. 👍
The authority angle can be directed at Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, who poses himself as a revolutionary for the underclass, which is only a guise for his real plan: the ritual sacrifice of Gotham itself.
Well said. I I hope Jonathan Pageau can do an analysis of "The Dark Knight Rises" too. I recall analysis online of how Bane pretends to be the great "reformer" in Gotham claiming he's for all of Gotham's citizens and how spoils will be shared. But his takeover is a form of feudalism where he and his men are at the top and everyone else is at the bottom and under his boot. People are forced to hide in their homes, the streets are empty save for Bane's army, and supplies are limited. The scene of the Scarecrow conducting a kangaroo court still makes me shudder to this day; the individual citizen is torn to pieces by the mob.
I doubt Christopher Nolan was predicting the future (and the beer bug) when he made his trilogy, but I think he has an understanding of human behavior, cycles in society, and the aftermath when order is overturned and then usurped by chaos; until the hero returns to restore order and balance.
Batman becomes whatever Gotham needs him to be. Christ answers Pilate with “You say so.”
Very well done, and especially important that we question ourselves. Great job.
Wow this is so powerful!
The best in the series by a very wide margin.
Wow
This reminds me of Curtis Yarvin's "What if There's No Such Thing as Chaotic Good?" blog post, in which he pokes fun at the fact that these days, nerds _always_ want to be chaotic good. You can see this in countless sub par movies where the "hero" is actually just a nerd acting out (but made to look the hero through music and other manipulations). I remember I always chose chaotic good in Baldur's Gate and similar videogames, so I can relate to both sides.
But in reality, Curtis argues, there is no chaotic good. It's an oxymoron. All the nerds choosing chaotic good aren't actually good, they've just found a superficially acceptable channel for their Nietzschean resentment fantasies.
My first response to this was: when the good king rules, yes, but when the world is upside down the chaotic good hero is called to action.
And I think that's mostly true, but there is another wrinkle Jonathan elaborates on here: that is, the hero in the upside down world is a force of chaos in the context of society under the pathological king. But in a larger context, he is strictly following the rules of reality (ie the rules of God). Although he is a nihilist in the smaller frame, he is the opposite in the larger frame.
So in a fundamental way, Curtis is right.
It does depend on the frame of reference. I generally went with neutral good in my D&D days: typically lawful, but when law was animated by tyranny rather than _agape,_ as in the episodes of cleansing and judging the Temple, perceived chaos is justifiable. (Of course, Jesus was the rightful king, which my characters were not, so that's a major difference.)
@@stephenrice2063
Thing is Agape is in complete accordance with Divine Law. So its ironically Law and Order despite looking chaotic at 1st glance. Jesus vs the Pharisees for example. True Law and Goodness vs False Law and Tyranny.
@@johnrockwell5834 It's a matter of context. Hiding Jews in Nazi-held areas was against the law and thus chaotic, for it undermined the established order. But it accorded with Divine Law and subverted sin, which was itself chaotic against the Divine Order (1 John 3:4).
Curtis is so based
@@stephenrice2063
Exactly. In a tyranny true Goodness and Divine Law chaotic by definition of its very existence. Until the Tyranny is transformed.
My love of Batman and my love of Christ have come to confluence.
I'm gonna need a minute...
“Willing to sacrifice oneself and accept the consequences of our actions.” Excellent analysis and advice for *everyone*.
I've encountered a funny backlash against this movie in recent years and I can't help think it may have something to do with what you see in it. These critics feel threatened by this movie for some reason.
Maybe that latest Joker film has turned certain people against all iterations of the Joker?
It is a very traditionally ordered movie at its core. No doubt it will have backlash in our current cultural landscape.
The Joker is Cain, fundamentally, and Cain is the hero of all tyrants and nihilists. That's why they don't like Batman. They identify with the Joker, not as Batman (or the purer side of Batman and the transformation Jon speaks to).
This was great. Thanks
That showed me this Masterpiece and one of the greatest movie in different angle
It is one of the best movie in 21 century
Sokrates is another example of this logic!
Yes, he should have been mentioned in this video. :)
3:11 So Batman and Joker truly are two sides of the same coin. Benevolence/Malevolence.
I think we all have that same coin inside us, in one way or another
You mean Jesus and Satan? Somewhat, yes, more so in the context of Satan as the Snake in the Garden of Eden, tempting Man into Chaos and Sin and Evil (this, being a deeper notion: the Snake is a reflection of Man's own innate Satan, Snake, and corrupted soul -- original sin). The Snake is in God's perfect Garden because Man wished it there, even if he did not know he wished it there. And, it's meaningful that it's fruit, of course, too. And that it's 'easy food' and 'free knowledge'. We could write an entire book about that. It ties into The Lord of the Rings, when all the Hobbits care about (other than Frodo) is getting food -- free and easy food -- and this leads them directly to the road and to the Ringwraiths. Tolkien is sending a clear Catholic message there, of course. It's also a story of Cain and Abel, and also the Jungian Shadow.
Let's stay with the Shadow idea for the moment. The Joker is the Dark Side of Batman. The Joker is what Batman could become, and maybe even was once on the path to becoming (this is much clearer in the early comics). Nolan studied the early comics for this and got it right. Joker himself states directly that Batman is just like him, and his entire existence is to show that Batman is the Joker, or can be. He does this with Two-Face, of course, right in the film. He is an Agent of Chaos, and the Shadow of each person (as it's layered to the viewer, not just Batman). The Joker, therefore, doesn't really exist in and of himself. And, he says as much, too. The Joker says that Batman needs him. He needs to fight him, to control him -- his own Shadow. He needs the Joker to develop into a complete personality (Jungian Self). He needs the Joker so that he knows what not to become, or else he may become it. Joker is the Nietzschean abyss, a mirror to the wretched part of the soul. You get an idea of this with Harry and Voldemort; Bilbo and Gollum; Frodo and Gollum; Jekyll and Mr. Hyde; Bruce and Hulk; Simba and Scar; and Neo and Agent Smith. Batman and Joker are not only two sides to the same coin, they are the two halves to the same side of the coin. It's Good vs. Evil, fundamentally (Evil, in this case, being the more fundamental Evil of Chaos -- the snakes within our own hearts -- as opposed to some serial killer type). Batman and Joker's relationship is the dramatisation of the line separating Good from Evil. As Solzhenitsyn wrote: 'The line separating Good and Evil is drawn, not between state lines or political parties, but it is drawn across every man's heart.'
Double inversion. Perfect. I used to say everything was an opposite of the opposite. Double Iverson is a much better word. You're understanding of spirituality and its themes are great.
Jonathan, you brought me to Christ and Orthodoxy. Don’t stop having actual balls. Tell people the truth. You make such a difference.
The Joker, an evangelical nihilist 😂
Nah, a nihilist evangelical. The most serious of them all.
Joel Osteen-ish...
@@phiswe Christ? He did say nothing in this world matters except the impossible to see feel or hear soul and God an the next world
He is tho 😂
@@beareble-lion4446 He said love matters
Film analysis again? Sweet!
Amen to that
Love it when you parallel a modern story with one from the Bible, makes it so clear. I took notes from this video. Thank you!
I forgot who said it, but there was some intellectual out there who said that every story is in the Bible
Batman acts very much like the “Knight of Faith” in this film, does he not?
Thought this was an excellent “new” format. Good choices on using the summary of your points and graphics. I believe this will be more effective to reaching a broader audience as is the “secular”choice of example. Keep the long form discussions and more overtly religious content as well. But this was great as an amuse bouche. (I think I just expended all my 8th grade French knowledge right there 😂)
Seconded
This is probably the sixth time I’ve watched this, I learn something new about what you’re saying each time a rewatch it. It’s very concise yet a deep well to keep drawing from. Thanks!
The best hero tales are the ones where the protagonist is a knight who lives in a world where there are no more knights. He’s the last of his kind.
That's why people loved the Mandalorian.
@@shotinthedark90 you mean luke? There's plenty of mandalorians left. 🤔
@@guy8360 That uphold their codes of honor?
@Caleb Fletcher Practically every Clint Eastwood movie is the hero tales I describe
Okay, I dunno where this thought came from, and it would require quite a bit of watch time, but Jonathan, would you ever consider doing an analysis of the anime Attack on Titan? It's extremely symbolic and is the most compelling story dealing with the cycle of violence and the inevitability of conflict that I've found in recent years.
It really takes its time to set things up and a lot of the early parts don't seem significant, but I'm still finding callbacks I didn't realize were there on my third watch right now.
Walls, Giant, Wings, the Ocean, there are a lot of reocurring symbols and I would love to see your take on how they all fit together.
I'd recommend watching in Japanese with subtitles and at least up to Season 4 Episode 5 to get a good picture of where the entire story's momentum has been building towards.
He would need a long time to go through the entire anime. He would need to watch it through to the end (including the final credits) to get the full story of the characters and themes, and be able to speak on it conclusively.
@@TheSeeking2know yeah I know it's a long shot. Would be really neat though.
I also think it would just be interesting to get his take on some Eastern art as most of the symbolic analysis he's done has been on Western stories. I love Japanese art right now because Western culture has been so pervasively adopted and adored in East Asia, yet the East yet remains the East in a distinct way, so what I have found is that Japanese storytellers nowadays are heavily influenced by Western tv and books, yet they combine these influences with their own cultural heritage and ways of thinking to produce what I believe to be truly groundbreaking methods of storytelling. They're not always the best, to be sure, and most of anime and videogames nowadays have pretty poorly told stories imo, but the ideas and premises are always fascinating and certainly the aesthetics always blow me away.
I would just be curious to see Jonathan's take on this hybrid system of meaning.
Discovering this profound blend of Pageau's insight and the Batman mythos is my new favorite thing on TH-cam.
@6:26
1) acting to help others
2) not acting to gain power
3) willing to self-sacrifice
Tshirt anyone?
If you want to “change” things as an individual, you’ll need to be clever and cunning. Everything is designed to repress and exclude the revolutionists.
@Simon Laberge You mean the mobs of goons fulfilling their “rebellious” programming? Then sure. And they surely are mostly misguided and hive minded as a rule.
My concern with this analysis is the rest of us are neither superheroes nor the Son of God. Batman is only *able* to defeat the SWAT team due to having numerous, face it, superpowers: plot armor, unlimited financial resources, and existing in a 72 hour day that allows him to be an elite martial artist, a great detective, and a CEO, all while getting enough sleep to remain at peak performance.
If us mere mortals were to try to beat up a SWAT team - most of us would lose hand-to-hand against the first guy. Elite MMA fighters would last a minute but not longer. We'd accomplish *nothing*, good or bad. Batman doesn't run for mayor or chief of police because he doesn't have to. He's a superhero. But for the rest of us - we're completely ineffective unless we get power first. But if we acquire power, that means we aren't distinct from the greedy.
Following these three rules is a guideline to being at most a speed bump, and not even a good speed bump. I'm reminded of the Film Theory's analysis of the Lion King. A lion that's eating a diet of bugs isn't going to beat a lion that's eating meat. The prospect of restoring order without strength is a fantasy.
Christians have the Holy Spirit, literally God within us. Maybe ask The Lord what it takes for you to walk with Him and he will show you what to do to be a Hero in our Upside-down world?
I think you are rather missing the point. You're not going to be a superhero. I'm not going to be a superhero. My circle of influence ends where my driveway meets the street, and yours likely does as well. You need to scale down to your daily life and interactions with those around you.
1. Acting to help others
.
2. Not acting to gain power
.
3. Willing to self-sacrifice.
If you act in this fashion your are performing the inversion on a scale that is applicable to your own life. I'm reminded of this article about doing the good that is at hand:
blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2021/01/20/doing-the-good-you-can-do-2/
Jesus was a hero not because of some super power, which he had, or some unattainable relationship with the creator of the universe, which he had. Jesus was a hero because his very human choice to volunteer to do what he saw as the ultimate good through self sacrifice. Jesus showed it was not miracles or some power with the divine that makes a hero it is his ability to chose to face unjust suffering in order to bring about the good inspired deed that would benefit everyone else. Jesus was good with God. He didn't need to do anything to be accepted and land at the right hand of God. He chose to show that some things are worth sacrificing yourself in the most hellish circumstances you could possibly imagine to bring good to yourself and everyone you come in contact with. Heroism is hard because you have to love your goal of good more than you love your own self preservation, comfort, etc...
Remember Batman's parting words to James Gordon at the end of The Dark Knight Rises? "A hero can be anyone". In The Dark Knight it was the ordinary people in the ferries who refused to give in to the Joker's tricks and blow each other up. It was those ordinary people who cemented Batman's victory against Joker. Did you notice the Joker's annoyance at the ferries not blowing up while he's got Batman trapped?
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.'
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."
Yayyyyyy, you're back to doing movie analysis... I can subversively introduce your ideas to my normies friends. Please do more of these 👍
I simply loved this video! loved the new concept, I missed the new awesome intro of your last interview, but man, thank God he sends us people like you in these times. Much love and prayers yo you and your family, may God bless you.
Genius brother. Never saw all that stuff in batman, especially when you pointed out it was the doctors and clowns in masks, super insightful
Jonathan this is so good thank you so much!🦋🕊
Well done, Pageau. I remember tearing up at the end of TDK in summer 08. I was so struck at the truth expressed through the comic book character that hit home better than any sermon in a long while for me. Changed my life. Thank you for making this and pushing it out to others.
I CANNOT SHARE WITH SOCIAL MEDIA AS I AM OUTCAST SO I WILL SHARE WITH COLLECTIVE CONSCIENCE THANK YOU IT IS AWESOME
Well said! The element of self-sacrifice in order to restore truth is something I bring up in my reflection on Wonder Woman 1984.
You had me at Joker! That was very interesting, thank you :)
excellent presentation, thank you Jonathan
This was incredible.
A gentleman who has subscribed to my Channel recommended that I subscribe to yours.
This is the first video of yours I have watched. What a brilliant, illustrative comparison. Powerful stuff sir, keep fighting the good fight 📿🛡👍🏼
Many Thanks! 🔥🦇
Luke
Would you consider running parallel channels on other platforms like Odysee or Rumble?
Great perspective!
Brilliant! Thank you.
Thank you for this. I have just become familiar with your work in these videos. I am an Orthodox Christian and will continue to listen
Here in this reality, many of our doctors really are the bad guys...
Lawyers get a bad rap, but there’s nothing more slimy than the smiling doctor or dentists draining you for cash.
Most of them are confused and don't really know what's going on, but are trained to follow authority unquestioningly.
@@ageofdulltron2052 "Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for..."
As someone who's most painful and traumatic moments in life happened in hospitals at the hands of doctors and nurses, I can't agree more. I wish I could give you a thousand likes.
@@ageofdulltron2052 lawyers are bottom feeders
Jonathans production quality has increased. I like the quiet music and the pictures and transitions. Im happy to see the channel grow.
It’s a bit of a tangent, but an interesting curiosity, that in the Roman times, the temples were the places where the clergy stored the gold. In front of the temples, there were benches (gr. trapeze, lat. banca), on which the money changers (gr. trapezitai, lat. argentarii) changed the greek drakhmas to the roman currencies and gold. The bench became the prototype of bank (la banca -> the bank) This is only my speculation, but I guess that they wanted to have the temple in Jerusalem to be some sort of bank, or even the main bank of the world at the time, because that would allow for the sadducees / priest class etc to become the real upper class of the society. But this plan failed, and the center moved eventually to Rome, which then eventually became an empire.
Wow, thanks John. I’ve loved your videos for a while now but this message is powerful in the true sense. Logos! I’m praying for ya bud.
Just watched The Dark Knight after reading Fyodor Dostoyevsky's "Demons" which is about Nihilist Revolutionaries in 19th Century Russia. Wow...this analysis ties it all together. This is great.
J’aime beaucoup ton travail sur TH-cam. Merci !
Thank you so much for your videos. They are so helpful at this time.
God bless you, Amen.
You’ve done it again Jonathan. I swear you always make me think 🤔
Hey Jonathan, everything you say reminds me so much of Jean Baudrillard's philosophy. The double inversion just being another term for what Baudrillard embodies both in his style of writing and his ideas: opposing to the "false" the "more false than the false", because the "false" has become the "real" in hyperreality. If metaphysics fails because of an inverted world, turn to pataphysics (one level above metaphysics, see wikipedia) instead. The way he writes is entirely symbolic, although, he is not a Christian. Therefore, he does deviate from your position somewhat, but because you two are so close in your ideas, there is actual tension and that is what makes it interesting to explore. Also, I think he might have some acutely relevant vocabulary for describing the world today. Jonathan, I would love to hear your thoughts on his, if at all possible. In case you are not yet familiar with him, I'm sure you would get a kick out of reading him.
His eventual return after the hiatus in Dark Knight rises is akin to that of Christ in Revelations after the sacrifice to finally fulfill the promise of paradise for Gotham city in this case ?
Thank you so much for this video. It articulates the questions fueling the anxiety I feel when I see the upside down. And It offers answers to those questions. Nobody wants to be a martyr. But maybe it's good to recognize that sacrifice is required of those who would be faithful to light and truth and covenants. You mention 3 things the hero is. To get through literal or figurative martyrdom, one would need to have their eye on a prize worth the sacrifice. Can you articulate what that prize is? (My faith would call it "Eternal Life", ie: living in the presence of God.) How would you describe it? What does Batman want most, that is worth the sacrifice? Where does his treasure lie?
Batman wants a happy and healthy Gotham filled with Happy and healthy people ... what Jesus wants for all of humanity and as his followers what we should want for all of humanity as well. Becoming a Christian should not be about "going to heaven" but should be about joining Jesus in the act of healing humanity; he heals us so we can help him/join him in healing others.
@@maciekgutkowski8075And the only way we can be avatars of His healing will and character to the world is by being the servant of others (beginning with other fellow believers); and by progressively sacrificing ourselves (mortifying our flesh, praying for our enemies, giving rather than receiving, and so on) to reveal Him t and His love and sacrifice to them.
Glad I found this channel!☦️🙏
Oh man, this was a really good video.
You've made this one of my favorite movies!
Glad to see you doing movies again!
I love this story. In these times when wallstreet is unvealed we have to call them out for trading in our church. But then we have to reconize that calling someone out is actually a bad thing and we should pay for our deeds.
Jonathan my friend, well done!
I thought of another possible example of this in The Hunger Games. There is a scene where the hero, Katniss, gives a young girl, Rue, a respectful burial. In the upside down world of the Games those in power expect Katniss to treat Rue (a 12 year old girl) as her enemy and a threat. Instead Katniss treats Rue's body with dignity and respect, knowing her actions are putting her in more danger as she is being filmed by those in power. Katniss knows by doing this she is sealing her death, but she believes it is more important to show love and kindness, than give into her need for self protection.
Later, this act is interpreted as a political act, rather than a godly one, and is used to begin a revolution, where those who lead the revolt become just as bad as the people in power.
Well done, Jonathan and Thomas. And well timed.
Ayy, thanks Derek!
@@storytellers1 I really liked the animation with the head/body/heart. So helpful to have the visual aid >,
Powerful......
Joker is not the hero we deserve, but the hero we need.
Plot twist: This video is not about the Joker
Plot twist: The Joker is the actual hero of the movie.
th-cam.com/video/JZ8YU5GcK-s/w-d-xo.html
I advise you to watch the video again :D
And I advise you to watch the video I linked ;)
There is another scene of the joker purposefully getting caught by the police in order to get to the cells, inside the station. A trick, where commissioner Gordon thinks he has the joker beaten. Not realising that it was the jokers intention to be caught all along.
The "tax evader" has more than enough reason to go up against the authority... :)
Have you thought of looking into post Apocalyptic Films or Fiction for Symbolism. A boy and his dog would be a great one
Great video. Joker is a postmodern. :) Glad that you are telling folks to prepare for increasing chaos and breakdown, that is sure to come, sadly. Would love a video about your point in the Q&A about the dangers of living in a world where people are convinced to believe contradictions - super important point that people missed.
I suspect we cannot see contradictions (or the bad narratives we have outsourced our cognition to) because we have lost the ability to sense the proper invariant patterns in the world. Our parabolic knowing is broken, or under trained or damaged somehow.
Jonathan Pageau is the hero in our upside down culture.
He may have to take one for the team.
Maybe he already has; we shall never know.
👨🎨🏹🎯
this is a really excellent video. thank you so much. i would point out that Batman telling Gordon to tell everyone that he (Batman) killed those people is actually directly opposite to Christ. while that act is sacrificial, the end result is that people are misled to believe a lie, something Christ did not and would never do. Christ is the truth and always testifies & leads people to the truth thereby setting them free. so while i find this video (and the movie) brilliant, what Batman did has always left me feeling let down in a way. it set up a false image, put Gordon in a position where he had to lie, and as a result weakened the people he was trying to help. not being critical, just sayin’...
Yep; hence the 3rd movie in the trilogy ... by the end of the Dark Knight Rises Batman becomes a lot more Jesus like.
Fantastic stuff, Jonathan! Yet another video that's a wealth of storycraft.
This puts into a clearer perspective on why the US Revolution was different by orders of magnitude than the French Revolution.
The US Revolution wasn't even started as a revolution. They wanted what was legally already theirs by law, the Rights of Englishmen; it was rules based. The French Revolution was nihilistic chaos because they made no pretense about their desire to destroy rather than set right in working order what already was.
Or is the Joker just the messenger of a Nihilistic age. Often our enemies are our own projection, chasing our own tale by deny our complicity. Perhaps why Christ says, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34
So Batman is actually the villain, defending the neuroticism of the culture he protects.
Pay your debts, take no more.
Be sufficient, so relying on corporate existence for your own.
End your blind appeal to human authority.
Remove all vice.
You don't need to save strangers to be a hero, really, all you need is to remove yourself, or yourself and family, from the systems at play, become one less battery source.
In the world, not of it.
@Victorian Spiritualist lead by example is a saying for a reason.
One challenge to your video is this - Where does the protagonist get the definition of "Help Others"? I realize this is a bit outside the scope of this video. Still a great video.
In the name of the father. That is what bruce wayne talks about with Alfred in the one of the movies.
Be interested in Vervaeke’s response as he explicitly stated we don’t need any more hero stories.
Jonathon can be understood as suggesting that Hero is always aberration from the current order, able to view it from outside of its constrictions and to act upon it.. the Hero thus reveals the contingnncy, the sham of the current order, liquidating its transcendentals, inverting then inverting its hierarchies again as in this case..
the death of the Hero as presented by Jonathon here can be seen as Hero as an identity, as a subject, being stable ony in relation to the order-discourse, as much as he is within it.. with the abolition of this order the Hero as in relation to it distolves too..
👂: 5:58
I’m not aligned with “he does it for sacrifice.”
Nah, he’s doing it for function with integrity regardless his reputation (honor is not a value; it’s a consequence). Roles & Functions make a man (character, dignity, respect, responsibility, and the scale to its effect is what humans use to rank in hierarchies).
He doesn’t submit to authority. He acknowledges participants to a Regime have their own functions which he doesn’t impede on.
°
He maintains integrity to not morally judge them nor hinder their autonomy.
°
He’s distinguishing differences between violence & protective use of force.
Sacrifice isn’t the process here.
The process here is Batman (the character/persona) aligning his behavior alongside a value: integrity.
°
The sacrifice you explained is merely him accepting the lose of alternate receptions to his behavior. However, he maintains his Role & Function within the community. Give, integrity in the face of temptation or threat.
°
Real life example: James 0’Keefe
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Check out his conversation on Valuetainment: th-cam.com/video/2hl8atsU5vQ/w-d-xo.html
°
6:11 You see yourself speaking on it: integrity.
I have trouble seeing how the story of Saint Constantine can fit the requirements articulated in this video. When I look at him, I see a man leading an army in a civil war, and bearing a mark of Christ on their shields, they aggressively remove the pagan leadership and replace that pagan leadership with a new empire with Saint Constantine as it's emperor. Can someone explain how these requirements fit this narrative, or in lieu of that explain why this situation does not necessitate these requirements?
The idea is that Christ's gesture of sacrifice, rather than revolution, ultimately led the official authority to convert.
@@JonathanPageau Thank you for taking the time to reply and as this video is specifically about how Christ displays this pattern, I don't wish to derail it to much by talking about Constantine. With that said, I cannot help but ask what makes Constantine the official authority in the context of a civil war and Maxentius the unofficial one? and if this is the case, would this also open up another question to what the appropriate behavior is to a usurper claiming official status? Thanks
Merçi Monsieur Pageau for the illuminating discussion. Your video couldn't have come at a better time to ally my growing anxiety over global governments' heavy hands squeezing us further and further with an apparent lack of concern over by the many over this worrying abuse of power.
Long may you run.
Thought you were aiming towards gerard's scapegoat for a second there.
I thought of Rene Girard as well. Though to be honest I get all my Girardian hot takes through Peter Thiel.
This video is great and true, but you oversaw an essential point: Batman and Jesus are using violence, but they do NOT kill the brainwashed/blind/those who were let astray. I feel that this is important to add to the list of boxes to check, going from three points to four.
🤔 6:37 Responsibility fits the definition given to self-sacrifice. Responsibility is accepting Consequences to Roles & Functions.
Sacrifice isn’t the process here.
The process here is Batman (the character/persona) aligning his behavior alongside a value: integrity.
°
The sacrifice you explained is merely him accepting the lose of alternate receptions to his behavior. However, he maintains his Role & Function within the community. Give, integrity in the face of temptation or threat.
°
Real life example: James 0’Keefe
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Check out his conversation on Valuetainment: th-cam.com/video/2hl8atsU5vQ/w-d-xo.html
The three elements of rebellion you address (acting to help others, not interested in power, and willing to self-sacrifice) immediately made me think of the Mistborn book series by Brandon Sanderson and how he incorporates an INVERSE of these 3 elements that end up leading the heroes to ruin. Regarding your video- I disagree with your assertion that the joker is in any way shape or form a nihilist- I'm rather fond of matpat's
'The Film Theorists' videos claiming the joker is a meticulous, pragmatic, lying consequentialist who's true purpose and goal was to 'cure' gotham (nurse uniform) by any means necessary, including the use of and planned banishment of the batman once his plan was complete. The joker cloaks his meaningful nature around the false light of nihilistic chaos- when you pay close enough attention you can easily see that the joker never acts without purpose or foresight. The biggest irony is that the joker himself truly meets the 3 elements of rebellion under close inspection- his goal was to cure gotham's corruption and reliance on batman/vigilantes (its why he needed batman banished after taking the blame for harvey dent), he has zero interest in money/power, and he ultimately sacrifices himself to attain his goals. the biggest trick was to disguise these heroic elements of rebellion as chaotic evil, at least from the filmmaker's perspective. the joker is by no means a 'good' or 'moral' character, but much like wanda in wandavision- the illuminated audience is meant to sympathize with the devil.
This is one of JP’s rules in his second book. Don’t destroy institutions of society.
He argues that these institutions give way to maintain sanity because they are the embodiment of the collective, agreed upon, values of society. But these institutions, as good as they may be, are susceptible, and arguably inevitably susceptible, to corruption. And only at the point where these institutions’ corruption blind them to the point of harming the values by which they were established by should they be fought in the same way that batman fights these cops in this scene.
Nothing to do with the actual video, but appreciate the use of scenes from Danton. I love Danton so much. Gerard Depardieu may be an ass, but man can he act. The 1990 Cyrano is also among my favorites.
Thank you.
Good timing
0:26 "an" hero?!
In case you haven't heard of that, it's a bit of a dark meme.
My apologies for injecting politics into this... but it is relevant.
This makes me reflect on recent events where our leader here in the U.S. told us to "Go home in peace". The media made it sound like we did the opposite.
It's pretty clear who the dictators are.
Isn't the smashing of the Bat signal a form of iconoclasm?
Great video! Christ was showing us how we can accept the consequences of ourselves AND others. Can we bear not just our weight but the load of our enemies too so that they be redeemed?
Noice!
What do you think of these movies (in case you've seen them, of course)?
The Holy Mountain (Alejandro Jodorowsky)
Forbidden Planet
Fantastic Planet (original name: La Planete Sauvage)
Metropolis (classic/old silent movie)
Evangelical Nihilist... Excellent - definitely adding that to my lexicon.
I never really understood that Batman movie until he explained it like that.
Soren kierkegaards fear and trembling.
I feel like it's a bit more complicated. What about fanatical devotion to an ideology? Even some persons in power were willing to sacrifice themselves or their relatives for the ideology they believed in, or their ideal of justice. Some religious sects, while being founded to gain material benefits, outlived their creators, and are now ruled by the people who sincerely believe in the teachings of their sect.
By the way, I am not saying you are wrong. It just feels like there is another point or two missing.
This video blew my mind the first time I watched it. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the new "The Batman" movie
I'm watching this video saying over and over to myself, "Don't assume he's talking about the pandemic, don't assume he's talking about the pandemic."
Evangelical Nihilist. That is a perfect description!