I’d rather argue that it’s not a problem with Lucina outclassing Marth, but a problem with the overlapping hitboxes and how the sourspot takes priority. Imagine Marth with the sweet spot leniency of Roy.
I think the issue is moreso that Lucina’s strengths are far too many in this game - Sm4sh, a game with both of them, saw Marth as the far better of the two because Lucina was much less powerful (also way too underpowered). They really need a sweet spot between the two, because right now the only thing holding Chrom back from ruining the game is his recovery
none of u sound like u know anything about ult lucina is fine as is, and marth sucks bcuz he has to play a gameplan that's invalidated by the fast paced nature of the games frame data and movement speed (mobility is amped up, hurtbox shifting, moves are mashy) ft. small tipper hitboxes
I think Marth's only really needed one buff to fix his playstyle: Bigger sword. - No more overlapping hitboxes so tippers connect reliably - Can threaten a bigger area - Bigger sword than Lucina gives you Range Vs. her Consistency I think that's specially valuable in a game where "Ranged sword" is out-boxed by brawlers like Kazuya... but also out-ranged by bigger swords (Cloud, Sephiroth, Shulk) or just bigger normals (Byleth, Min Min, Belmonts)
I'm not the only one who feels like Lucina's the problem child right? Cause no one complains about Chrom outclassing Roy cause the dude took a huge hit for not having to space his stuff in his offstage being so weak, on top of some situations killing later than Roy. Lucina loses the early kill power & that's about it. I guess her reach is a bit smaller cause she's a bit shorter but it's really not enough to matter.
this is a good video overall but i wouldn’t say a lot of these are *bad* character design, just weak design. imo a lot of the examples of bad design are seen in top tiers like rob kazuya and steve where the characters have no real weaknesses and extreme strengths
I don’t think Marth not being a high tier character is an indication of bad character design. I’d argue that Lucina is more poorly designed than Marth because she takes a moveset that was designed with one specific goal, precise spacing, and made it braindead easy. This makes her a better character in the tier list, but it doesn’t make her more fun to play. Min min is pretty high up in the tier list, but I’d argue she’s the worst designed character in the whole game. Marth has some flaws, sure, but they remind me of sheik or captain falcon. Easy to play, but hard to master. Once you do master them, there’s no stopping you.
Hey! The reason I chose to highlight Marth in this video was because when compared to other characters with similar mechanics (even past iterations) he comes up short. By nature, a character like Marth SHOULD be difficult but my point is they made it harder than I think was necessary to balance him, the overlapping just kills the character in my opinion.
Great video dude, love looking at game design especially when it comes to a game like Smash where balance is pretty much the number 1 factor (especially with this game which is super well balanced!)
I don't think Junior is badly designed overall (the discussion of the long startup on two of his specials completely ignores those moves' strengths, for instance) but his get-up attack is a real problem. Banjo's worst design flaw is the low reward for his combos. Tons of effort for half the damage you'd get comboing with an eaiser character like Mario.
As a JR player myself, he struggles a lot from subpar range so having even a semi-fast projectile would help him a ton. The moves aren't terrible in my opinion, but making them quicker would help him a ton without making him broken. I was thinking about comparing mechakoopa to gyro when writing this because of their unique functionalities as item projectiles. One is super fast with tons of endlag and infinite combo potential while the other takes forever to become active and leaves him vulnerable. Clearly, one character got the short end of the stick, which was my point with this video.
@@NoahTheFat Completely factual, honestly my biggest complaint with SSBU is that all characters are not designed equally. Some of them kind of just get to do whatever they want with super fast and super long options, and then there's Jr. with horrible frame data and janky ass mechanics and hitboxes 🙃
I would argue that out of all the projectiles in Ultimate, and arguably in the entirety of the Smash, Jr's are some of the most sensibly designed, whereas everyone else just feels bananas that they were even allowed. You can see this video as to why. th-cam.com/video/Qq4uMQ1yXYo/w-d-xo.html The whole idea of projectiles being safe to throw out no matter what is a baffling design philosophy, especially in fighting games. Zoning is generally balanced with its poor usage in close range at all times, and dynamic zoning is done when the character is forced to make every zoning tool used count, instead of resorting to spamming them as the easiest and most effective method. No zoner in Ultimate follows this, making their balance off and generally not fun to play against. Bowser Jr. on the other hand, has several applications attached to a relatively reasonable risk. They both encourage the player to use them at longer ranges and enable the mindset of cherishing every zoning tool used. This is why zoning with Jr. doesn't feel cheap to the player or the opponent. Calculated risks and opportunity identification are visible for the player to feel smart and proud of and for the opponent to weave through and punish, making them feel smart.
Hey, I wrote this video. I agree that projectiles should not be as safe as they are in this game, but that is just the way Ultimate is. JR's range isn't very good so having a fast projectile would help him out a ton. I play JR a lot and I'm only able to use his projectiles when I have a significant advantage. I agree they should have endlag but having them come out faster wouldn't make the moves broken or anything, would just help him in neutral.
Another character that has bad character design is Mythra/Pyra. They do not have any synergy with each other at all, especially with a very laggy down b. You’d expect there to be some interesting follow ups with swapping move sets, but in reality, it’s just two separate characters where one has free spammy aerials (Mythra) and one has ridiculous range and damage (Pyra)
@@ivrydice0954 bruh I already explained it in my original comment. I'm talking about swapping between Mythra and Pyra seamlessly so they work together rather than just two separate characters. Check out the HDR mod and you'll see what I'm talking about
@@_zombiezone It's takes half a second to swap. Foresight slow down also lasts for half a second. Put 2 & 2 together. Just because you can't switch instantly doesn't syngery doesn't exist you just need to get a little creative. Gimr made a video about this for more info check it out.
This is really cool, love the focus on obscure mechanics!
I’d argue that marths tippers aren’t poor design. More that Lucina lobotomizes an otherwise technical character role. Idk I just hate lucina
You know I think both are correct. Lucinas sword is quite overturned. But imo marths is undertuned. I would love to see them rework him. But alas 😢
I too am a certified swordie hater
I’d rather argue that it’s not a problem with Lucina outclassing Marth, but a problem with the overlapping hitboxes and how the sourspot takes priority. Imagine Marth with the sweet spot leniency of Roy.
I think the issue is moreso that Lucina’s strengths are far too many in this game - Sm4sh, a game with both of them, saw Marth as the far better of the two because Lucina was much less powerful (also way too underpowered). They really need a sweet spot between the two, because right now the only thing holding Chrom back from ruining the game is his recovery
none of u sound like u know anything about ult
lucina is fine as is, and marth sucks bcuz he has to play a gameplan that's invalidated by the fast paced nature of the games frame data and movement speed (mobility is amped up, hurtbox shifting, moves are mashy) ft. small tipper hitboxes
I think Marth's only really needed one buff to fix his playstyle: Bigger sword.
- No more overlapping hitboxes so tippers connect reliably
- Can threaten a bigger area
- Bigger sword than Lucina gives you Range Vs. her Consistency
I think that's specially valuable in a game where "Ranged sword" is out-boxed by brawlers like Kazuya... but also out-ranged by bigger swords (Cloud, Sephiroth, Shulk) or just bigger normals (Byleth, Min Min, Belmonts)
I'm not the only one who feels like Lucina's the problem child right?
Cause no one complains about Chrom outclassing Roy cause the dude took a huge hit for not having to space his stuff in his offstage being so weak, on top of some situations killing later than Roy.
Lucina loses the early kill power & that's about it.
I guess her reach is a bit smaller cause she's a bit shorter but it's really not enough to matter.
this is a good video overall but i wouldn’t say a lot of these are *bad* character design, just weak design. imo a lot of the examples of bad design are seen in top tiers like rob kazuya and steve where the characters have no real weaknesses and extreme strengths
Fun little video :) rip jr
Watching this makes me think "Why? Why would they put this in the game?"
This came out amazing, it was a blast helping out with the clips :)
That thumbnail tho!
I don’t think Marth not being a high tier character is an indication of bad character design. I’d argue that Lucina is more poorly designed than Marth because she takes a moveset that was designed with one specific goal, precise spacing, and made it braindead easy. This makes her a better character in the tier list, but it doesn’t make her more fun to play. Min min is pretty high up in the tier list, but I’d argue she’s the worst designed character in the whole game. Marth has some flaws, sure, but they remind me of sheik or captain falcon. Easy to play, but hard to master. Once you do master them, there’s no stopping you.
Hey! The reason I chose to highlight Marth in this video was because when compared to other characters with similar mechanics (even past iterations) he comes up short. By nature, a character like Marth SHOULD be difficult but my point is they made it harder than I think was necessary to balance him, the overlapping just kills the character in my opinion.
I agree, Lucina is a such poor inclusion
@@NoahTheFat fair enough
Great video dude, love looking at game design especially when it comes to a game like Smash where balance is pretty much the number 1 factor (especially with this game which is super well balanced!)
There will be much more game design discussion in the future :) happy to hear you enjoyed!!
I don't think Junior is badly designed overall (the discussion of the long startup on two of his specials completely ignores those moves' strengths, for instance) but his get-up attack is a real problem.
Banjo's worst design flaw is the low reward for his combos. Tons of effort for half the damage you'd get comboing with an eaiser character like Mario.
As a JR player myself, he struggles a lot from subpar range so having even a semi-fast projectile would help him a ton. The moves aren't terrible in my opinion, but making them quicker would help him a ton without making him broken. I was thinking about comparing mechakoopa to gyro when writing this because of their unique functionalities as item projectiles. One is super fast with tons of endlag and infinite combo potential while the other takes forever to become active and leaves him vulnerable. Clearly, one character got the short end of the stick, which was my point with this video.
@@NoahTheFat Completely factual, honestly my biggest complaint with SSBU is that all characters are not designed equally. Some of them kind of just get to do whatever they want with super fast and super long options, and then there's Jr. with horrible frame data and janky ass mechanics and hitboxes 🙃
Goated Hawk returns for anotha one
1:33 domestic abuse
I would argue that out of all the projectiles in Ultimate, and arguably in the entirety of the Smash, Jr's are some of the most sensibly designed, whereas everyone else just feels bananas that they were even allowed. You can see this video as to why. th-cam.com/video/Qq4uMQ1yXYo/w-d-xo.html
The whole idea of projectiles being safe to throw out no matter what is a baffling design philosophy, especially in fighting games. Zoning is generally balanced with its poor usage in close range at all times, and dynamic zoning is done when the character is forced to make every zoning tool used count, instead of resorting to spamming them as the easiest and most effective method. No zoner in Ultimate follows this, making their balance off and generally not fun to play against.
Bowser Jr. on the other hand, has several applications attached to a relatively reasonable risk. They both encourage the player to use them at longer ranges and enable the mindset of cherishing every zoning tool used. This is why zoning with Jr. doesn't feel cheap to the player or the opponent. Calculated risks and opportunity identification are visible for the player to feel smart and proud of and for the opponent to weave through and punish, making them feel smart.
Hey, I wrote this video. I agree that projectiles should not be as safe as they are in this game, but that is just the way Ultimate is. JR's range isn't very good so having a fast projectile would help him out a ton. I play JR a lot and I'm only able to use his projectiles when I have a significant advantage. I agree they should have endlag but having them come out faster wouldn't make the moves broken or anything, would just help him in neutral.
@@NoahTheFat how you gonna give bowjer jr a projectile? shooting himself out????
Jr. main here. And yeah.
Same 😔
This was a fun one!
Very well made video man, this will 100% blow up
here before this one blows up lmao
If it does we will remember you were here first ✊
Another character that has bad character design is Mythra/Pyra. They do not have any synergy with each other at all, especially with a very laggy down b. You’d expect there to be some interesting follow ups with swapping move sets, but in reality, it’s just two separate characters where one has free spammy aerials (Mythra) and one has ridiculous range and damage (Pyra)
Is combos with mythra into killing with pyra not syngerstic or something?
@@ivrydice0954 it’s the fact that it doesn’t exist that gives them no synergy with each other despite being one character
@@_zombiezone I'm curious what is "it"?
Because I'm not sure how many tier list you've seen, but a part of me doubts Pyra/Mythra need "it".
@@ivrydice0954 bruh I already explained it in my original comment. I'm talking about swapping between Mythra and Pyra seamlessly so they work together rather than just two separate characters. Check out the HDR mod and you'll see what I'm talking about
@@_zombiezone It's takes half a second to swap.
Foresight slow down also lasts for half a second.
Put 2 & 2 together.
Just because you can't switch instantly doesn't syngery doesn't exist you just need to get a little creative.
Gimr made a video about this for more info check it out.
aaaaand disliked.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO