The actions of Rogue One was a massive blow to this system as well. An Imperial base full of secret projects, destroyed. Two entire Star Destroyers destroyed in a cost-effective combo of ion torpedoes and a "fire ship" Hammerhead. The gigantic Death Star went boom shortly thereafter, and the consequences of both the destruction of Alderaan and the Death Star further galvanized resistance to this recently depleted military.
That was a bad couple of weeks for the Empire. What if Palpatine had been on vacation and came back to ..... "What?? Vader, I leave you in charge, and this?" "My master, you left Tarkin in charge."
@@kimarous which then leads to the Rebel mid rim offensive with dozens of worlds rising up… and then the Empire mobilises a huge chunk of its assets to systematically crush them. The Alliance to be fair thought that the massive victory at Yavin could be capitalised on, keeping the momentum going. In fact it showed that the war would grind on and escalate further…
Good video it's not often you hear star wars channels talk about the economic effects of the empire on the galaxy. One of the many reasons I enjoy this channel so much...and despise dolphins.
This wasn't a bad idea. The Byzantine empire used similar system called the Theme system. Each Theme was responsible for raising troops to protect it. The problem arises when the various moffs can't cooperate. It would make sense to have the sector fleets and then have a high command with several bases scattered throughout that would have a naval base for a central fleet that could respond to other threats. Much like how state police and rangers work.
I like how Thrawn thought Project Stardust was such a waste of resources When instead, the could build many more star destroyers and upgraded Tie Fighters
This is fanon, to clarify, like virtually every 'lore fact' people projectile vomit about what the blueberry himself has or hasn't said (not that it matters; the way people worship at the altar of the blue schlong is borderline uncomfortable in how cult-like it is)
The Empire's politics also did it no favors here. The Empire was built on scheming, mostly incompetent officers all trying to get more power and keep their rivals from doing the same. Think of the most toxic, paranoid office environment you can possibly imagine. Palpatine actually ENCOURAGED this because it amused him to see these petty fights and more importantly it kept people too busy to take a shot at him. The Rebels used this to their advantage by striking in one sector and then fleeing to another, the two sector commanders would not cooperate because they would be too busy bickering.
@@MrLightningbob If only reality is as black and white as it seems everyone and their grandmother presents it. "Lets arrest him AND THEN find what he's guilty of, he must be guilty of SOMETHING"-That isn't exactly something you want to hear from the self-appointed defenders of democracy.
The politics of scheming, power-hungry and sometimes incompetent officers was based on Republic culture though. The Emperor simply never addressed this issue, but the Empire didn't create the issue
Huge waste of resources through the disproportionate allocation of resources towards the most fucking immobile and impractical starship ever: the ISD and it being the centerpiece caused it to be very damn useless when fighting anything other than a conventional enemy force, and they encountered conventional enemies in like 1% odds out of all cases.
I love the ISD, but I think it was spread too thin in its purpose. They should have doubled down on either being a battleship or being a mobile base. In the former case, you can then support it with a defensive compliment and then later send in the supply lines for an outpost installment. In the latter, you could pair it with a more offensive compliment or capital ship (i.e., the venator) and load it up with defensive installments. Sinking so many resources into a fleet jack-of-all ships was doomed to fail from the conceptual level.
@@DTisEmo Doubling down on being a battleship would be actually quite interesting. If you look at ISD cros-section, a battleship version of it: much smaller hangars, minimal accomodations for troops, no ground vehicles could allow to shed up to 2/3s of it's volume (while preserving the same reactor, and slightly rearranging the engines). Imagine how much faster could it be with higher thrust to weight ratio, and how much better defended with much smaller volume, but the same shield power. As for the law enforcement, I believe, the Empire should have created special patrol boats: fast and nimble light-medium freighter sized ships, with cargo space replaced by more potent energy and weapons systems with its main armament being homing concussion and ion missiles + several turrets. Add crew of 10-12 people and a small shuttle/boarding craft with a platoon (20-30) of security droids, equipped with mostly non lethal weapons e.g. deck sweepers. Missiles would allow this ship to punch way above its weight class, not for long though, but long enough to deal with small rebel or pirate forces or to receive reinforcements from more substantial ships. Also note emphasis on less lethal armament this would allow to capture pirates and rebels for subsequent interrogation. Ideally would be to equip this ship with class 1 hyberdrive, but 2 would also suffice, a signifficant crew as well a complement of droids would signifficalntly reduce the possibility of defection.
Seeing how ISDs are one of the singular most efficient, powerful, and practical ships ever devised, per virtually every source in existence, and that virtually you're entire comment is based on braindead fanon and misinformation spread by outright-useless TH-cam slop like this channel and others, I really, geniunely wish you, and people like you didnt have a voice in teh community.
@@DTisEmoGiven that your base premise (of the ISD being a failure, that is) is categorically,y empirically false, on every conceivable level per almost every source in existence, I lmec again need to voice how it's an utter tragedy beyond measure that TH-camrs like this, and people like you, are allowed to exist amd propagate.
@@solarissv777"Doubling down on being a Battleship..." Lmfao, why would they do this in any meaningfully massive number? "If you look at ISD cross sections..." An Internet random? Read? "...a battleship version of it..." Tectors. "As for the law enforcement, I believe, the Empire should have...(snip)" God. If I had the massive power, influence, and reach these people did, I would make it primo objective #1 to popularize the concept of mocking this sort of fanwankery. Nothing but intellectually vapid nerd Fantasy Football.
The British Empire most of history had small army, a large navy of small warships in local against slavery and pirates and a few fleets so like the Caribbean Fleet, India Fleet and the Home Fleet. These Fleets in against other enemy Fleets. The British Empire stop and became a British Commonwealth.
@charlestaylor253 The game had changed in the 20th century, the Brittian's navy was hugely beneficial in both world wars. The problem was that the world wars were mostly land battles.
@@charlestaylor253 in ww1 the British blockade of German ports was a major contributer to the German defeat in ww2 while much of the fleet was obsolesnt due to advances in technology it prevented Germany for invading and crippled the Italian navy, lplus the 200 years of naval domince like in the napoleonic war or the use of naval power to enforce anti slavery with the west Africa squadron
@@charlestaylor253The royal navies blockade of Germany prevented any trade and importantly food from reaching Germany, a major reason why Germany was eventually defeated as the population was starving by 1918. During WW2, the might of the navy was a major reason why Britain never fell as well as preventing the axis from gaining oil, forcing them to attack the Caucasus and the disaster of Slaingrad.
I think I remember from one of the Zahn novels a theory about how Palpatine used the Force to actually guide the Imperial military in such a way that made it run more efficiently, and when he died that efficiency immediately collapsed, which contributed heavily to its rapid post-Endor downfall. I could be misremembering, but I don't think so...
It was the first Thrawn book Heir to the Empire which isn't considered canon anymore. It was also in the Knights of the Old Republic game where Bastilla used Jedi "Battle Meditation" to markedly boost the morale and performance of her troops to the point she was considered the sole reason Jedi had a chance against the massive Sith army
Id assume that the term "sector fleet" only refers to the military assets assigned to each sector and the overall commanding officer if said sectors is given free reign as to how best to distribute it, it's doubtful they concentrate large numbers together unless there was an military operation that required it.(Thrawn wasn't using the whole of the 7th fleet just a portion untill he'd sufficiently herded the rebels for a final confrontation)
@@sumukhvmrsat6347 true, I was using the 7th fleet as an example as it is one of the few depictions we've seen on-screen. Although I would assume that apart from Coruscant and maybe a handful of strategic worlds most worlds would only have 1 maybe 2 ships close by for any length of time(this might increase when a heavy rebel presence is detected or with the increase of the size of the imperial military)
@@thestanleys3657The 'Sector Fleet' is probably similar to the way the US organizes its navy. The US 7th Fleet for example is based on Japan and is assigned to the geographical area of the Pacific Ocean. Though their warships isn't stuck in that command forever. They do have various task forces but ships of those task forces get replaced by other ships while those ships, and its crew, return to its home port to rest and if necessary, undergo refitting.
I actually used this for a fan series concept. A young imperial leader given the offer to take an outer rim settlment his way. The problem was the pirates in the sector and the main imperial fleet won't waste time. But his father an admiral offered his son to carry on the famoly name to take control and take the system by any means. He chose more passive methods and gathered the people beside him, he learned from his grandfather who was an imperial admiral and joined the empire. Like his grandfather loyal and valued honour. It shows though the empire was corrupt there were some good people in it who truly wanted to do what the republic failed to do. But again its my own concept.
Generally speaking you make some good points in the video Alan, however the perception of the make up of a typical sector fleet is flawed albeit seen through the skewed lens of the films or the tv series. A typical sector fleet would have 2400 ships (not including fighters) and mostly consist of light and medium ships from corvettes to frigates to light cruisers. Of those 2400, 24 could be ISD I's or II's and maybe a larger battlecruiser as a fleet flagship. The real day to day work is handelled by squadrons of Carrack frigates or maybe Loronar Strike Cruisers which as you can imagine are both faster and more efficient than an ISD. With the rise of the Rebels Alliance, the Empire is forced to rethink some of it's fleet doctrine - particularly the role of starfighters. Not only do we see the introduction the TIE Interceptor and development of the TIE Defender, we also get types such as the XG-1 "StarWing" Assault Gunboat which is a much closer analogue to the Rebel X and Y wings. A balanced multi-role combat fighter that has a hyperdrive, shields and a balanced weapons loadout. More of these would open up all kinds of tactical possibilities in the escalation of the Civil war...
FWIW, I thoroughly enjoy your delving into the lore, the economics and military organization of Star Wars. It adds depth to the story and is a nice break from the goings on of our lively little Earth.
They were perfect supplemental ships to the ISD. In fact, a venator and victory duo could potentially be more cost effective and strategically more sound than deploying a lone ISD.
I figured Palpatine relied on fear since it was an element of the Dark Side. By having so many beings feeling this fear, it further tipped the balance towards the Dark Side.
I agree the Empire had a horrible defense plans and military structure, but the Republic had only a slightly better one that lead to massive and unnecessary losses and casualties during wartime. It would’ve been better if they divided their State power into three (maybe one more max) levels. The Federal, Sector, and planetary levels. With each having the same basic concepts of a modern nation state (government, taxes, military, law enforcement, etc) in their area of influence with the federal government being in overall control. All of this written in their constitution and resources divided based on scale size. Each level would have local leaders (government and legislature), tax base, defense force (military or National Guard in the US), law enforcement, courts, etc to handle their normal day to day lives and associated needs. When an emergency or threat they can’t handle happens they can call for help from the next level of government to get it. The military, defense, and law enforcement for each level would be spread out in each level as need and be called upon when needed. This type of organization would make the Republic and Galaxy lot safer, stable, and likely deter or end major conflicts a lot quicker and with fewer casualties on their side. This why modern nation states have developed government organizational systems like this in a lot them (especially stable and powerful states). The Republic system is similar to a much older and less stable system similar to what empires and kingdoms were in our history. Great video as always though.
What would happen if you had a vastly inefficient type of rule, where wages are delayed, but you still have a command structure in place that organises and forces soldiers and personnel to come to work - the corruption would by sky high. The units would be falling apart. But they'd still be super dangerous entities, super powerful. But perhaps a unit could be bought. Perhaps a unit would turn over. I mean... We've seen so much of this in real life from a great empire.... The Russian empire and the Soviet Union. Check it out. Now, how would that look in the SW universe?
I will say the complete lack of federal military is what caused a lot of problems in the star wars galaxy; it's even the reason for the fall of the Jedi and the rise of the empire. If the republic had had a a stronger military, they wouldn't have needed to rely on clones. It also allows their laws to have some teeth; a rule without enforcement isn't a rule, it's just ink on a page.
The Republic may have not needed a large standing military, but they definitely needed a large patrol fleet. Such a "Coast Guard" could have prevented a lot of major threats from gaining traction in the first place, or at least given the Republic more forewarning. And it would have prevented the whole CIS situation in the first place.
My thought for a sector fleet in the mid-rim or beyond is one Imperial II-class Star Destroyer that mostly orbits the breadbasket of the sector or doing a slow patrol route through the capital system, but capable of jumping to wherever it's needed. Perhaps accompanied by a Venator-class Star Destroyer and a few picket ships. The sector would actually be patrolled by one of 3 taskforces (Wolverine, Badger, and Muskrat), each of which consists of: 1 Arquitens-class command cruiser 1 Gozanti-class Electronic Warfare (EW) cruiser 1 Rendilli StarDrive light corvette modified into a picket carrier capable of supporting 2 squadrons of TIE-series fighters 3 Charger c70 frigates (carrying a contingent of marines for boarding actions) 3 Gozanti-class picket carriers (1 TIE/in, 1 TIE/sa, 2 TIE/ln) The command cruiser, EW cruiser, and light corvette, stay central, monitoring the situation and swooping in where needed, while pairs of the frigates and picket carriers patrol and respond to detections. For dealing with smugglers and small pirate bands, this seems like enough firepower, but if more is needed, they can gather, call in a second taskforce, and call in the Star Destroyer if things get really harry. While 1 taskforce is patrolling, another is training in the central system (with the breadbasket planet), and the third is undergoing repair and upgrade. When the first taskforce ends it patrol time, it's replaced by the second, the third going out for a training patrol, making room for the first taskforce to go into the docks for repair and upgrade.
I feel like the empire could have held out by retreating to the core words and maybe even a buffer around it. Holding onto the most important worlds and basically making two states, the empire and the new republic.
Wait?!?! The Star Wars economy isn’t real? Allen I’ve been converting my dollars into credits and investing all my credits into the stock picks you’re been giving us. What have I been investing in?
All this lore about imperial incompetence had to be entirely manufactured after the movies came out to explain how the empire didnt completely destroy the rebellion right away.
You should offer degrees in Star Wars studies, Alan. You're already a Professor the way you teach...and I always learn something more. I wish I had your knowledge. In the current state of the world, looking at SW might not be such a bad idea. Idealist, extremists, traditionalist, dictators...we seem to have them all...just as the SW universe had.
Will it improved the Imperial Navy's situation if Palpatine invested in it more than the Death Star in order to have his own personal fleet to travel around the Empire's territories from his own mobile palace that served as his very own flagship?
I think the reason the Empire was made the way it was was because of Sidious and Vader. Since they were two of the most powerful force sensitives to ever exist, they could peer into the future on certain things if need be, or directly influence someone with the force. If not for Luke and Obi Wan, the rebellion would have lost at Yavin 4 years ago.
This is half right. While the cause is correct, the deviation from the Republic isn't the issue. The reason why the Outer Rim had such issues under the Empire was explained in the Tarkin novel; Separatist worlds were forced to pay exorbitant reparations to the Empire, a war which was inherited from the Republic. The officer culture of the Empire were based on the military culture of the various Republic fleets, whether it be the Judicials or local fleets, which included the infamous tolerance for corruption and the favouring of nobility and mercantile families. Yes, Palpatine did scale up the military to a ridiculous degree, but this is like Hitler with Germany. It isn't as though Germany didn't want a large military or that there weren't nationalist forces without him, but they were obligated by treaty and burdened with financial issues. Hitler simply took advantage of what was already their and added his own personal twist on it, and his twist happened to be racial science bullshittery. Similarly, many in the Republic actively looked to circumvent or at least wanted a large military, but because of the precedent of the Ruusan Reformations, they generally couldn't. Palpatine gave people what they wanted and added a twist to it, *that* was his problem. The twists Palpatine added may have not helped anything, but all the groundwork was already baked into the Republic's upper and upper middle classes. Hell, the reason Palpatine falls is actually predetermined by his sticking to Republic norms. It is revealed in the Tarkin novel that Palpatine had assumed that most, if not all the resistance against his rule would be from the former CIS, not from within the old Republic. This, for all intents and purposes, led to him treating the ex CIS way too harshly in the early years and not dealing with the disloyal Republic loyalists. Combined with the Republic officer culture of corruption and neglect, and it is no wonder that the Rebellion was able to win. Measuring the Republic by its longevity isn't really a good way to measure its success. The Holy Roman Empire existed for centuries, but historians tend to agree that it was a disorderly, bloated state in the same way that the Republic was. The difference between the 2 is of course that the HRE wasn't really popular with the power brokers who lived in its borders, while the Republic very much was. The Republic survived due to its corrupt nature rather than due to virtues. The failure of the New Republic is evidence of that.
In your SWRPG home campaigns, What is the most interesting reproduced use found for the leftover and surplus ISDs? Merchant Vessel? Casino? Orbital Spaceport? Hospital Ship? Colony Ship? Manufacturing Hub? Black Site Lab/Prison?
What do you think of the state of the galaxy in the sequels? Because it apearse that they had no notion of how the galaxy they were working on works and they just wanted to copy-paste the rebels vs empire trope for the sake of it. Not taking in consideration the economic and political state of thousands of planets and how this conflict affected them.
Well in legends Vitiate basically defeat the Republic two time, first with the sack of Coruscant and later as leader of the Eternal empire, he was defeated due to a mass use of plot armor.
Ignoring that many of the problems were thr point because Sith are a cult of self destructive dillweeds that either lost some serious brainpower after their first empire fell or really need to listen to reformists like Malgus and Revan. You can make a large military like the Empire work in some circumstances, especially the ones at the end of the Clone Wars would be a ripe opportunity. First thing, it can't operate like a traditional military you need to set it up like the Turian Hierarchy of Mass Effect where it's more of a general civil service that also has access and training to frightening amount of firepower. Second you can use that military to become effectively a tool of public infrastructure, health, law enforcement and other activities especially in destitute and ignored areas like the Outer Rim, that way you could overcome that issue of "last 10%" a lot of utilities run into where it's a waste to have to build infrastructure to the hard to reach and backwater areas, but also do it without the mistake of paying the Trade Federation to become corporate kings. Organizationally I do agree that the local should be your bread and butter, but I would borrow from the US military and National Guard system and have some swapping between the two for equipment, training and some combat experience. Next level up should be the Garrison Forces under the control of the various Moffs where the focus is on rapid response, basically they should mostly be designed to operate like US Marine Expeditionary Units, but also provide the bulk of military civil services to their outlying sectors. Next level should be the Federal Army and Navy which is where you get the heavy response level units and iperates strictly like a normal military, that's where units like Death Squadron would operate out of. Weirdly enough I was actually designing this system for a theoretical Imperium of Man if the Horus Heresy or any like event wouldn't have occurred (yes I know th official crunch for the Emperor's plans, but I find it dumb so I made my own!)
If the Sith ended with Bane, how do you think things would have gone for the Republic? Do you think the Clone Wars would have still happened and how would they have gone? I'm curious because if they started, the Republic would have been doomed because of the CIS's massive armies and the Republic's lack of one, but then again the corporate factions and dissatisfied member worlds may not have been pushed to secede
Sector fleets were a great idea! You need organized fleets for each small part of space. Each sector has different needs. Some sectors need 12 imperial class, some need 12 smaller class. Some need 300 cruisers and frigates, some need 100 You do know the only reason it failed is cause of 1 battle, endor. The rebels couldn’t do shit and had to kill the emperor to win.
I think a good middle ground for the Republic is to maintain Medium-ish size core military primarily for pirate-hunting permanently on the Outer Rim or policing Hyperlanes. Keep them on that task full-time. It buys the Republic brownie points from grateful local citizenry and looks good on budgets while allowing them to still have something of a Federal military without it seeming excessive or unnecessary spending. To be fair, this group would probably lack any Large capital ships but at least you'd have a trained, veteran officer corps to promote up if an when a wartime footing (and full-size warships) would become necessary.
The Sector Fleet's could have worked if Palpatine wasn't huffing all that dark side meth. They should act more like sector rangers, let the local PDF's handle in security on worlds and in system the Sector fleet patrols between systems, coordinates with various PDF's to hunt Pirates/Fugitives or just provide backup when they need some bigger guns. The ISD has it's uses but should actually be the least numerous in the group. 3 per sector and even then spend most of it's time at sector command if not needed for a deployment it could have doubled as a relief ship, swap out the AT-AT's and prefab garrison bases with prefab field hospitals and medical shuttles or transport other relief supplies and personnel when not needed for a combat deployment. Need to break a fortified pirate base with fleet?, send in the ISD to backup the sector ranger fleet. Outbreak or natural disaster on generic world 2814? send in the ISD to help with relief efforts. A hyperspace capable fighter corp's would help with long range patrols where as the TIE/ln would be perfect for Planetary defense forces given how cheap they cost. Hell the empire could have simply gone with a federally subsidized fleet standardization program. Arquitens and Gozanti cruisers are perfect for local defense fleets and if the empire had everyone using mostly the same equipment it would simplify logistics for various worlds. short on replacement samoflanges for your cruiser, well ask your neighboring system if they have some spares they'll trade for. now of course different systems will have different fleet needs but standardization will probably work in most cases. Now as for the Imperial Ranger fleets? The Gladiator class would work as a pocket carrier for Hyperspace capable fighters Can carry up to 2 squadrons of fighters [seems like it should be more] and has enough firepower to fight off most threats it would face in the post clonewars era. round it out with it's own Arquitens cruisers and raider class corvettes. I could follow up with the issues surrounding the Moff's and also jump on the bandwagon that stardust was a stupid project but that would make this post even longer than we'd like
I like the idea of the ISD being used in more humanitarian aspects. Plenty of space to carry equipment to help assist the local populace after a war or disaster.
Let’s not forget the financially gargantuan super star destroyers that were built which had a more psychological than practical use. I don’t think the only weakness of the empire was the sector fleet formation but also the fact that they primarily used ISD’s instead of more practical ships like the immobilizer class and other cruiser types in dealing with the republic fleet
Seeing how the Empire never fought the (old) Republic, and is infact just the Republic rebranded, nor are Super Star Destroyers (or in reality, Star Dreadnaughts) 'impractical', nevermind that being worthlessly subjective, nor were ISDs even vaguely close to the 'primary' ship (in actual fact, ISDs make up somewhere between 1% to less than 1% of the fleet; an average Sector Fleet is 1600 combat ships, and only 24 ISDs), I don't really see your point.
The idea behind the sector fleets is a sound one the problem is that just like everything else in the imperial navy it was implemented in the worst way possible. Having a full time, properly equipped, professional navy in charge of transit lane security and anti-piracy operations is a good idea and the empire could've leveraged the wealth of the core worlds to subsidize the cost of security in the outer systems with the condition that the money saved by these systems (since they no longer have to pay for their own security) will be used to develop civilian infrastructure. Now if the goal is to suppress piracy and rebels and insurrectionists large Tarkin doctrine capital ships is the exact WRONG ships to use.The systems that can afford to field capital ships (Alderaan, Mon Cala, Corellia, Ect..) don't have a piracy/smuggler problem. Rebels, pirates, and other non-governmental groups KNOW they can't shoot it out with the navy so they prefer fast, highly maneuverable ships instead (especially for pirates and smugglers the goal is to be able to run faster longer than the guy chasing you). The empire would've been much better served investing heavy into corvettes and frigates as those are fast enough to chase down perps and force an engagement and armed well enough to win said engagement. While they have the Gozanti-class ships to fill in the gaps, it's an up-gunned civilian cargo ship and was not designed for combat, it's large, bulky, and worst SLOW. The fighters attached to it don't have hyperspace capabilities so if the suspects run the can't give chase and the cruiser they're attached to is too slow to force an engagement so all they can do is watch the enemy get away.
I seem to remember the sector fleets also jealously guarded their jurisdictions, so a fleeing rebel group could cross into a different sector and the different sector fleets would get bogged down in who should have command of the pursuit.
There should have been a more sensible compromise - lightly regulating local defence forces, perhaps limiting them to light-cruisers so they can not challenge the empire, and then putting a more efficient sector fleet to reinforce any such world with heavier forces as needed. Regular cross-training exercises would ensure rapid integration of reinforcements into a sensible command structure, whilst also impressing on the locals the power of Sector Command and providing a pipeline for the Imperials to poach promising local officers at minimal expense. Concentrating a few thousand Star Destroyers into an Imperial Fleet would have given Palpatine the ability to radically alter the balance of power in any given sector without outright replacing it's military, with enough funds left over to actually patrol the Galaxy as well.
Pop filter on Amazon $3.00 and arrives tomorrow… Alan: Nah i already got a sock. No joke though I had a thick wool sock (it was new and straight out of the package when I started doing it) I cut to fit my SM7B after my 2 year old thought the original was squishy and fun to play with. Worked like a champ.
Two questions. 1. In this video you said the 7th bright ten ISDs to Lothal. In another you said Thrawn had 25. Which is it? 2. In an earlier video you covered the Gozanti and Arquitens and said they were the ideal ships for covering the Empire and providing security, but I'm this one you described them as a weakness. It can't be both, or did I misunderstand something?
A SW 'loretuber' (ew, ew, ew) channel, which regularly peddles outright misinformation and fanon and presents it as fact which results in MASSIVE chunks of the broader fanbase being hopelessly ignorant and yet fully confident they aren't...isn't being consistent in their misinformation...? Shocking, truly. Just...shocking.
@@papapalps2415 Now, see, I was asking because I wanted an actual answer from Allen. Even within just Legends or Disney's continuity there are major foulups in keeping things straight, so it isn't necessarily any lack of consistency in the information presented, as their is a lack of consistency in the actual official information flow over the last forty plus years. Clearly you're just a jerk here to hate, so piss off.
1 maybe 2 ISDs with 25 cruisers, corvettes and frigates and escorts including carriers enough to cover 2 systems would have done better than a fleets of star destroyers, with a sector security to cover the smaller issues that are not at the local system's level.
I boil down the short lifespan of the Galactic Empire almost purely down to Palpatine running it like a complete self centered asshole with no priority for longevity. He was so focused on nonstop military industrial complex at the expense of everything else, or course the rest of the Galaxy rebelled.
If you are curious how, exactly, the Galactic Empire fell, then I would actually really highly recommend the original series Star Wars is fundamentally based on; the Star Wars Original Trilogy! There's 3 movies; Star Wars Episode IV (that means 4, to clarify): A New Hope. Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back (HIGHLY recommend this one in particular, easily the best film, if not one of the best movies ever made!) And Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi (the last of the original film trilogy, and the one that's most important to explaining how the Galactic Empire ultimately lost! Really quite good, although it's overall the weakest of the 3). These should help answer your question, as you seem confused on how it happened and are resorting to fanon, when it's actually explained really nicely! I hope that helps! 😃 😊 😀
After watching Andor (which is good) the empire seemed to enjoy torturing people (which is not too suprising) but in Rebels and comics they definitely enjoyed torturing aliens (Gov Price enjoying torturing Hera Syndula)
The military of the republic just needs to be a small navy/marine corps plus a few army bases and starfighter bases on empty republic federally owned worlds around the edges of the territory. Then you have a separate coast guard (system guard?) that patrols in space that does law enforcement and anti-piracy within the territory. Maybe the navy patrols through maybe only every few months. Most citizens never leave the atmosphere of their home planet so a system guard and navy will not feel like an occupation unlike federal army troops quartered in your town.
I feel like the video unintentionally seems to make more points *for* the sector fleet concept than against it. Whilst the economic and perception aspects are sound, the former is more of a criticism on the Empire's hyper-militarization in general and would apply equally to local forces raised at similar levels, whereas the latter would merely be a matter of time and propaganda or have outright sedition as its alternative. A number of core worlds such as Anaxes were quite proud of their role for the Imperial Navy, due to a loyalist tradition dating back millennia simply being transplanted to the new regime. Similarly, very few countries in the real world still maintain non-federalized armies and even a lot of liberal democracies know the concept of "military regions" to organize federal forces in. In Star Wars, local resentment at the disbanding of planetary forces or the perception of an occupation by outside troops would most likely have faded in time just like it did in the real world. Said resentment would most likely be located in the Outer Rim, anyways, where the Empire used its oppression to crack down on perceived civil disobedience or outright crime, and if local forces didn't already manage to maintain loyalty to the central government before Coruscant's transition to a dictatorship, they certainly wouldn't somehow do so after. Interestingly, in the old canon, where most of the information on Sector Fleets is from, the New Republic maintained a very similar system, just organized into four fleet commands for the entire galaxy, and battlegroups assigned to individual sectors. And there it worked. As such, I would argue the problem wasn't the idea of a Sector Fleet, but simply how the Empire used them, i.e. the flaws of the Tarkin Doctrine.
it why the tie fighter was mistake because rebels most on star fighter level and jumped into hyperspace once ISD showed upped. It why admiral thrown want tie fighter defender Because being smaller and cheaper it could be in more place than large ISD.
The biggest issue with the Imperial fleet is that it wasn't built to fight the rebels. In legend sources, it's pretty evident that Palpatine was building the Imperial Navy to fight the Yuzhan Vong. Why else would he make a death Star? It was so that he could use it as a weapon to destroy their massive world ships
I can not find out info on the power level of blaster cannons like Tami & Bak Kx 9 on x wing vrs kx 5 on Y wings which is stronger? Can you find that info what ships have more powerfull blaster cannons?
Tie defenders as main fighters and a escorting fleet of corvettes , frigates ,cruisers and carriers for the Star destroyer instead of a whopping 25000 isds and. Desthstar wouldve saved the Empire ,but then they didnt have the intelligence to have a competent corruption free government and command organisation too alongwith serving the emperor instead of serving the empire
So in the end the Sector Fleet wasn't a bad idea. The bad idea was not focusing on people's welfare. There isn't a single government today that could defend its territory or leaders from their own population in case of rebellion, even if they spend all their resources on the military. An aggravated population will always vastly outnumber the military and will improvise and overcome whatever buffed mil-tech the government has produced with money that could've been used for bettering the lives of the people. Imperial sector fleets (forces) are comparable to Republic sector defence forces. The only difference is the Federal High Command had to convince the local sector force to reinforce another republic sector that is in need of reinforcement, while Imperial High Command directly gave orders to Moffs to transfer troops and ships from their sectors to other Moffs that need reinforcements. The problem with the Empire is that it gave Moffs too much freedom to do whatever they want with their sectors, while the Republic would usually send federal agents and/or jedi when a sector's leadership was going out of hand and there was a risk if rebellion.
That why i don't like canon. It strip a major part of the Empire and Rebel alliance force/ship and making for the sake of nothing. Like where is all the different high and Grand amiral fighting each other for what tactic is better ? That the all point of Zinj vs Teradoc After Endor, high power slow and giant fleet vs more small fast and agile fleet ( ISD vs Victory) or the all purpose of why they are so many high power institutions ? The Empire was build for dying if Palpatine die because he don't want to see annyone take is place never. Another thing for empire and Rebel alliance, special operation and special force fight was the majority of engagement, Navy commando and Navy special operation force again'st rebel special force and elite squadron strike force forcing all camp to adapt. That why the rebel alliance start making more durable and powerful ship because theyr tactic falling in the long term. Empire Navy command and imperial army command structure change they'r approch, more fast vehicule and ship more ship made for capture by using stealh or really fast and manœuvrable fleet with little interdictor ship like immobilisator or tween well generation depending of the Moff/Grand Moff. That another type thing because the Galaxy is Titanic empire command structure autorise a lot of different type of vessels and vehicule, they juste want a centralise structure (ISD, Victory in capital ship, star dreadnought or battlecruiser for patrol command fleet and AT-AT and AT-ST in every army armour platoon. So we see more interessing move and action, mentality change in the two camp, Empire using more agile quick respond fleet and the rebel alliance making more powerful and durable ship for fighting imperial reserve fleet and convoy. Yeah don't forget than a logistic imperial ship Can fight a MC80 and defend his cargaison from pirate and rebel special squadrons (The altor class more than all the other) That why the Empire fall in every univers but in canon for some bullshit all the plan of Palpatine fail. The Warlord never make enough power or don't gain enough force why? That the all point of putting very paranoïac and good politicien and not military veteran, Kain, Zinjs, Delvarus are all politicien more than military and where some of the most powerful and dangerous Warlord for the New Republic. In other and the New Republic beginning was really chaotic but very well make, they are hate in some Space love in other and fail to retake all the Galaxy and will never take it but it still the better choice of gouvernement After Endor and After the Vong even. All start from the organisation of the Empire by Palpatine it's not just made for make the population feel incapable of fighting back it's made for if he die no one can rule the Galaxy and no one will ever be able to After Endor. And even if it not in the video i still miss the bloody and very stupid fight beetween the BSI, comporn and Imperial renseignement. And the one beetween army and Navy who make some if the most stupidly cool troop ship vehicule and hero of the Rebel alliance and Empire (Veers, Solo, Wegd, Teradoc etc)
The empire couldn’t improve on their wartime strategy after the clone wars? 20+ years of the same deployment strategy? I definitely would blame the empire for that type of inflexibility.
"The more tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." - Leia Organa in A New Hope
I know this isn't a joke but my brain is fried and I immedently thought of somethin else 😭😭 I might need help
@@BananasBanana Uhh what the dingus are you thinking of?
Rip Carrie Fisher 😢
"Leia. you always was a silly ho."
-G Moff Tarkin
I was thinking about the exact same quote from Princess Leia..
The actions of Rogue One was a massive blow to this system as well. An Imperial base full of secret projects, destroyed. Two entire Star Destroyers destroyed in a cost-effective combo of ion torpedoes and a "fire ship" Hammerhead. The gigantic Death Star went boom shortly thereafter, and the consequences of both the destruction of Alderaan and the Death Star further galvanized resistance to this recently depleted military.
That was a bad couple of weeks for the Empire.
What if Palpatine had been on vacation and came back to ..... "What?? Vader, I leave you in charge, and this?"
"My master, you left Tarkin in charge."
@@kimarous which then leads to the Rebel mid rim offensive with dozens of worlds rising up… and then the Empire mobilises a huge chunk of its assets to systematically crush them. The Alliance to be fair thought that the massive victory at Yavin could be capitalised on, keeping the momentum going. In fact it showed that the war would grind on and escalate further…
why did palpatine use fascism as a basis for his new government, even though fascism isn't built to last? is he stupid?
@@casbot71
Vader: well we still gave Byss my lord
@@nathanpierce7681is there a lore reason for this?
Good video it's not often you hear star wars channels talk about the economic effects of the empire on the galaxy. One of the many reasons I enjoy this channel so much...and despise dolphins.
They're usually busy advertising their products or having dramas.
This wasn't a bad idea. The Byzantine empire used similar system called the Theme system. Each Theme was responsible for raising troops to protect it. The problem arises when the various moffs can't cooperate. It would make sense to have the sector fleets and then have a high command with several bases scattered throughout that would have a naval base for a central fleet that could respond to other threats. Much like how state police and rangers work.
I like how Thrawn thought Project Stardust was such a waste of resources
When instead, the could build many more star destroyers and upgraded Tie Fighters
This is fanon, to clarify, like virtually every 'lore fact' people projectile vomit about what the blueberry himself has or hasn't said (not that it matters; the way people worship at the altar of the blue schlong is borderline uncomfortable in how cult-like it is)
Thrawn was a military officer, not a statesman. He is trying to solve the Rebel Problem through the military.
The Empire's politics also did it no favors here. The Empire was built on scheming, mostly incompetent officers all trying to get more power and keep their rivals from doing the same. Think of the most toxic, paranoid office environment you can possibly imagine. Palpatine actually ENCOURAGED this because it amused him to see these petty fights and more importantly it kept people too busy to take a shot at him. The Rebels used this to their advantage by striking in one sector and then fleeing to another, the two sector commanders would not cooperate because they would be too busy bickering.
Therefore the Grand Moffs were introduced
Sounds like the trump administration
Butt hurt communist alert.
@@MrLightningbob
@@MrLightningbob If only reality is as black and white as it seems everyone and their grandmother presents it.
"Lets arrest him AND THEN find what he's guilty of, he must be guilty of SOMETHING"-That isn't exactly something you want to hear from the self-appointed defenders of democracy.
The politics of scheming, power-hungry and sometimes incompetent officers was based on Republic culture though. The Emperor simply never addressed this issue, but the Empire didn't create the issue
Does Allan walk into that fancy office high-rise in a suit and take out his grungy tank-top just to film these?
Why not 😂
Huge waste of resources through the disproportionate allocation of resources towards the most fucking immobile and impractical starship ever: the ISD and it being the centerpiece caused it to be very damn useless when fighting anything other than a conventional enemy force, and they encountered conventional enemies in like 1% odds out of all cases.
I love the ISD, but I think it was spread too thin in its purpose.
They should have doubled down on either being a battleship or being a mobile base. In the former case, you can then support it with a defensive compliment and then later send in the supply lines for an outpost installment. In the latter, you could pair it with a more offensive compliment or capital ship (i.e., the venator) and load it up with defensive installments.
Sinking so many resources into a fleet jack-of-all ships was doomed to fail from the conceptual level.
@@DTisEmo Doubling down on being a battleship would be actually quite interesting. If you look at ISD cros-section, a battleship version of it: much smaller hangars, minimal accomodations for troops, no ground vehicles could allow to shed up to 2/3s of it's volume (while preserving the same reactor, and slightly rearranging the engines). Imagine how much faster could it be with higher thrust to weight ratio, and how much better defended with much smaller volume, but the same shield power.
As for the law enforcement, I believe, the Empire should have created special patrol boats: fast and nimble light-medium freighter sized ships, with cargo space replaced by more potent energy and weapons systems with its main armament being homing concussion and ion missiles + several turrets. Add crew of 10-12 people and a small shuttle/boarding craft with a platoon (20-30) of security droids, equipped with mostly non lethal weapons e.g. deck sweepers. Missiles would allow this ship to punch way above its weight class, not for long though, but long enough to deal with small rebel or pirate forces or to receive reinforcements from more substantial ships. Also note emphasis on less lethal armament this would allow to capture pirates and rebels for subsequent interrogation. Ideally would be to equip this ship with class 1 hyberdrive, but 2 would also suffice, a signifficant crew as well a complement of droids would signifficalntly reduce the possibility of defection.
Seeing how ISDs are one of the singular most efficient, powerful, and practical ships ever devised, per virtually every source in existence, and that virtually you're entire comment is based on braindead fanon and misinformation spread by outright-useless TH-cam slop like this channel and others, I really, geniunely wish you, and people like you didnt have a voice in teh community.
@@DTisEmoGiven that your base premise (of the ISD being a failure, that is) is categorically,y empirically false, on every conceivable level per almost every source in existence, I lmec again need to voice how it's an utter tragedy beyond measure that TH-camrs like this, and people like you, are allowed to exist amd propagate.
@@solarissv777"Doubling down on being a Battleship..."
Lmfao, why would they do this in any meaningfully massive number?
"If you look at ISD cross sections..."
An Internet random? Read?
"...a battleship version of it..."
Tectors.
"As for the law enforcement, I believe, the Empire should have...(snip)"
God. If I had the massive power, influence, and reach these people did, I would make it primo objective #1 to popularize the concept of mocking this sort of fanwankery. Nothing but intellectually vapid nerd Fantasy Football.
The British Empire most of history had small army, a large navy of small warships in local against slavery and pirates and a few fleets so like the Caribbean Fleet, India Fleet and the Home Fleet. These Fleets in against other enemy Fleets. The British Empire stop and became a British Commonwealth.
Also the grand fleet
And yet the Royal Navy did Britain itself very little good during WW1. And not much more in WW2...
@charlestaylor253 The game had changed in the 20th century, the Brittian's navy was hugely beneficial in both world wars. The problem was that the world wars were mostly land battles.
@@charlestaylor253 in ww1 the British blockade of German ports was a major contributer to the German defeat in ww2 while much of the fleet was obsolesnt due to advances in technology it prevented Germany for invading and crippled the Italian navy, lplus the 200 years of naval domince like in the napoleonic war or the use of naval power to enforce anti slavery with the west Africa squadron
@@charlestaylor253The royal navies blockade of Germany prevented any trade and importantly food from reaching Germany, a major reason why Germany was eventually defeated as the population was starving by 1918. During WW2, the might of the navy was a major reason why Britain never fell as well as preventing the axis from gaining oil, forcing them to attack the Caucasus and the disaster of Slaingrad.
I think I remember from one of the Zahn novels a theory about how Palpatine used the Force to actually guide the Imperial military in such a way that made it run more efficiently, and when he died that efficiency immediately collapsed, which contributed heavily to its rapid post-Endor downfall. I could be misremembering, but I don't think so...
It was the first Thrawn book Heir to the Empire which isn't considered canon anymore. It was also in the Knights of the Old Republic game where Bastilla used Jedi "Battle Meditation" to markedly boost the morale and performance of her troops to the point she was considered the sole reason Jedi had a chance against the massive Sith army
Id assume that the term "sector fleet" only refers to the military assets assigned to each sector and the overall commanding officer if said sectors is given free reign as to how best to distribute it, it's doubtful they concentrate large numbers together unless there was an military operation that required it.(Thrawn wasn't using the whole of the 7th fleet just a portion untill he'd sufficiently herded the rebels for a final confrontation)
Well the other portions of the sector fleet would've been orbiting key planets in that sector , like Lothal system alone doesn't constitute a sector ,
@@sumukhvmrsat6347 true, I was using the 7th fleet as an example as it is one of the few depictions we've seen on-screen. Although I would assume that apart from Coruscant and maybe a handful of strategic worlds most worlds would only have 1 maybe 2 ships close by for any length of time(this might increase when a heavy rebel presence is detected or with the increase of the size of the imperial military)
@@thestanleys3657The 'Sector Fleet' is probably similar to the way the US organizes its navy.
The US 7th Fleet for example is based on Japan and is assigned to the geographical area of the Pacific Ocean. Though their warships isn't stuck in that command forever. They do have various task forces but ships of those task forces get replaced by other ships while those ships, and its crew, return to its home port to rest and if necessary, undergo refitting.
I actually used this for a fan series concept. A young imperial leader given the offer to take an outer rim settlment his way. The problem was the pirates in the sector and the main imperial fleet won't waste time. But his father an admiral offered his son to carry on the famoly name to take control and take the system by any means. He chose more passive methods and gathered the people beside him, he learned from his grandfather who was an imperial admiral and joined the empire. Like his grandfather loyal and valued honour. It shows though the empire was corrupt there were some good people in it who truly wanted to do what the republic failed to do. But again its my own concept.
And this is why this is my favorite STar Wars related channel , puts things in perspective
Generally speaking you make some good points in the video Alan, however the perception of the make up of a typical sector fleet is flawed albeit seen through the skewed lens of the films or the tv series. A typical sector fleet would have 2400 ships (not including fighters) and mostly consist of light and medium ships from corvettes to frigates to light cruisers. Of those 2400, 24 could be ISD I's or II's and maybe a larger battlecruiser as a fleet flagship. The real day to day work is handelled by squadrons of Carrack frigates or maybe Loronar Strike Cruisers which as you can imagine are both faster and more efficient than an ISD. With the rise of the Rebels Alliance, the Empire is forced to rethink some of it's fleet doctrine - particularly the role of starfighters. Not only do we see the introduction the TIE Interceptor and development of the TIE Defender, we also get types such as the XG-1 "StarWing" Assault Gunboat which is a much closer analogue to the Rebel X and Y wings. A balanced multi-role combat fighter that has a hyperdrive, shields and a balanced weapons loadout. More of these would open up all kinds of tactical possibilities in the escalation of the Civil war...
FWIW, I thoroughly enjoy your delving into the lore, the economics and military organization of Star Wars. It adds depth to the story and is a nice break from the goings on of our lively little Earth.
Palpatine wanted to give the appearance of order at the cost of actual efficiency. He fed off the dark side energy his rule created.
A glittering gem is not enough.
This is why you make different Fleet formations.
The Imps retired the Venator and the Victory-class too early
They were perfect supplemental ships to the ISD. In fact, a venator and victory duo could potentially be more cost effective and strategically more sound than deploying a lone ISD.
@@russellharrell2747 I’m picturing the mid section acting as a launch tube for TIE Interceptors
1,024 sectors... 1024 bits in a byte. Coincidence?
So basically the star wars galaxy is 1 GB 😂🎉
😂
@sumukhvmrsat6347 so it's just a program run on R2D2....
@@casbot71 r2 is also a byte
Byte is 8 bits
I figured Palpatine relied on fear since it was an element of the Dark Side. By having so many beings feeling this fear, it further tipped the balance towards the Dark Side.
I agree the Empire had a horrible defense plans and military structure, but the Republic had only a slightly better one that lead to massive and unnecessary losses and casualties during wartime. It would’ve been better if they divided their State power into three (maybe one more max) levels. The Federal, Sector, and planetary levels.
With each having the same basic concepts of a modern nation state (government, taxes, military, law enforcement, etc) in their area of influence with the federal government being in overall control. All of this written in their constitution and resources divided based on scale size.
Each level would have local leaders (government and legislature), tax base, defense force (military or National Guard in the US), law enforcement, courts, etc to handle their normal day to day lives and associated needs.
When an emergency or threat they can’t handle happens they can call for help from the next level of government to get it. The military, defense, and law enforcement for each level would be spread out in each level as need and be called upon when needed.
This type of organization would make the Republic and Galaxy lot safer, stable, and likely deter or end major conflicts a lot quicker and with fewer casualties on their side.
This why modern nation states have developed government organizational systems like this in a lot them (especially stable and powerful states). The Republic system is similar to a much older and less stable system similar to what empires and kingdoms were in our history.
Great video as always though.
That sand analogy is quite topical, it gets everywhere.
Peter found road kill an excellent way to save money on dinner.
Bro you’ve been pumping out videos like crazy. I appreciate it
What would happen if you had a vastly inefficient type of rule, where wages are delayed, but you still have a command structure in place that organises and forces soldiers and personnel to come to work - the corruption would by sky high. The units would be falling apart. But they'd still be super dangerous entities, super powerful. But perhaps a unit could be bought. Perhaps a unit would turn over. I mean... We've seen so much of this in real life from a great empire.... The Russian empire and the Soviet Union. Check it out. Now, how would that look in the SW universe?
I will say the complete lack of federal military is what caused a lot of problems in the star wars galaxy; it's even the reason for the fall of the Jedi and the rise of the empire. If the republic had had a a stronger military, they wouldn't have needed to rely on clones. It also allows their laws to have some teeth; a rule without enforcement isn't a rule, it's just ink on a page.
The Republic may have not needed a large standing military, but they definitely needed a large patrol fleet.
Such a "Coast Guard" could have prevented a lot of major threats from gaining traction in the first place, or at least given the Republic more forewarning.
And it would have prevented the whole CIS situation in the first place.
My thought for a sector fleet in the mid-rim or beyond is one Imperial II-class Star Destroyer that mostly orbits the breadbasket of the sector or doing a slow patrol route through the capital system, but capable of jumping to wherever it's needed. Perhaps accompanied by a Venator-class Star Destroyer and a few picket ships. The sector would actually be patrolled by one of 3 taskforces (Wolverine, Badger, and Muskrat), each of which consists of:
1 Arquitens-class command cruiser
1 Gozanti-class Electronic Warfare (EW) cruiser
1 Rendilli StarDrive light corvette modified into a picket carrier capable of supporting 2 squadrons of TIE-series fighters
3 Charger c70 frigates (carrying a contingent of marines for boarding actions)
3 Gozanti-class picket carriers (1 TIE/in, 1 TIE/sa, 2 TIE/ln)
The command cruiser, EW cruiser, and light corvette, stay central, monitoring the situation and swooping in where needed, while pairs of the frigates and picket carriers patrol and respond to detections. For dealing with smugglers and small pirate bands, this seems like enough firepower, but if more is needed, they can gather, call in a second taskforce, and call in the Star Destroyer if things get really harry.
While 1 taskforce is patrolling, another is training in the central system (with the breadbasket planet), and the third is undergoing repair and upgrade. When the first taskforce ends it patrol time, it's replaced by the second, the third going out for a training patrol, making room for the first taskforce to go into the docks for repair and upgrade.
Would love to see a video discussing the idea that palpatine was preparing for the yuuzon vong invasion
It is only possible to live happily ever after on a day to day basis.
I feel like the empire could have held out by retreating to the core words and maybe even a buffer around it. Holding onto the most important worlds and basically making two states, the empire and the new republic.
pre-Disney a lot of them did just that
I'm really liking your current run of videos....my only request is to add a 5 or 10 sec intro as TH-cam is cutting off the beginning.
Wait?!?! The Star Wars economy isn’t real? Allen I’ve been converting my dollars into credits and investing all my credits into the stock picks you’re been giving us. What have I been investing in?
All this lore about imperial incompetence had to be entirely manufactured after the movies came out to explain how the empire didnt completely destroy the rebellion right away.
Great video!
I can't believe he did not have plans for ewoke jerky shortage good thing I did local hunters all in house none GMO jerky
You should offer degrees in Star Wars studies, Alan. You're already a Professor the way you teach...and I always learn something more. I wish I had your knowledge.
In the current state of the world, looking at SW might not be such a bad idea.
Idealist, extremists, traditionalist, dictators...we seem to have them all...just as the SW universe had.
You can't choose up sides on a round world.
Will it improved the Imperial Navy's situation if Palpatine invested in it more than the Death Star in order to have his own personal fleet to travel around the Empire's territories from his own mobile palace that served as his very own flagship?
Adam where are you that background is beautiful
I think the reason the Empire was made the way it was was because of Sidious and Vader. Since they were two of the most powerful force sensitives to ever exist, they could peer into the future on certain things if need be, or directly influence someone with the force. If not for Luke and Obi Wan, the rebellion would have lost at Yavin 4 years ago.
She discovered van life is difficult with 2 cats and a dog.
This is half right. While the cause is correct, the deviation from the Republic isn't the issue. The reason why the Outer Rim had such issues under the Empire was explained in the Tarkin novel; Separatist worlds were forced to pay exorbitant reparations to the Empire, a war which was inherited from the Republic. The officer culture of the Empire were based on the military culture of the various Republic fleets, whether it be the Judicials or local fleets, which included the infamous tolerance for corruption and the favouring of nobility and mercantile families.
Yes, Palpatine did scale up the military to a ridiculous degree, but this is like Hitler with Germany. It isn't as though Germany didn't want a large military or that there weren't nationalist forces without him, but they were obligated by treaty and burdened with financial issues. Hitler simply took advantage of what was already their and added his own personal twist on it, and his twist happened to be racial science bullshittery.
Similarly, many in the Republic actively looked to circumvent or at least wanted a large military, but because of the precedent of the Ruusan Reformations, they generally couldn't. Palpatine gave people what they wanted and added a twist to it, *that* was his problem. The twists Palpatine added may have not helped anything, but all the groundwork was already baked into the Republic's upper and upper middle classes.
Hell, the reason Palpatine falls is actually predetermined by his sticking to Republic norms. It is revealed in the Tarkin novel that Palpatine had assumed that most, if not all the resistance against his rule would be from the former CIS, not from within the old Republic. This, for all intents and purposes, led to him treating the ex CIS way too harshly in the early years and not dealing with the disloyal Republic loyalists. Combined with the Republic officer culture of corruption and neglect, and it is no wonder that the Rebellion was able to win.
Measuring the Republic by its longevity isn't really a good way to measure its success. The Holy Roman Empire existed for centuries, but historians tend to agree that it was a disorderly, bloated state in the same way that the Republic was. The difference between the 2 is of course that the HRE wasn't really popular with the power brokers who lived in its borders, while the Republic very much was. The Republic survived due to its corrupt nature rather than due to virtues. The failure of the New Republic is evidence of that.
I love the sock on the mic. Gangster!
Great video
In your SWRPG home campaigns, What is the most interesting reproduced use found for the leftover and surplus ISDs?
Merchant Vessel?
Casino?
Orbital Spaceport?
Hospital Ship?
Colony Ship?
Manufacturing Hub?
Black Site Lab/Prison?
What do you think of the state of the galaxy in the sequels? Because it apearse that they had no notion of how the galaxy they were working on works and they just wanted to copy-paste the rebels vs empire trope for the sake of it. Not taking in consideration the economic and political state of thousands of planets and how this conflict affected them.
Well in legends Vitiate basically defeat the Republic two time, first with the sack of Coruscant and later as leader of the Eternal empire, he was defeated due to a mass use of plot armor.
Discussing the logistics and life in fictional settings is super fun.
There should have been a time and a place, but this wasn't it.
Ignoring that many of the problems were thr point because Sith are a cult of self destructive dillweeds that either lost some serious brainpower after their first empire fell or really need to listen to reformists like Malgus and Revan. You can make a large military like the Empire work in some circumstances, especially the ones at the end of the Clone Wars would be a ripe opportunity. First thing, it can't operate like a traditional military you need to set it up like the Turian Hierarchy of Mass Effect where it's more of a general civil service that also has access and training to frightening amount of firepower. Second you can use that military to become effectively a tool of public infrastructure, health, law enforcement and other activities especially in destitute and ignored areas like the Outer Rim, that way you could overcome that issue of "last 10%" a lot of utilities run into where it's a waste to have to build infrastructure to the hard to reach and backwater areas, but also do it without the mistake of paying the Trade Federation to become corporate kings.
Organizationally I do agree that the local should be your bread and butter, but I would borrow from the US military and National Guard system and have some swapping between the two for equipment, training and some combat experience. Next level up should be the Garrison Forces under the control of the various Moffs where the focus is on rapid response, basically they should mostly be designed to operate like US Marine Expeditionary Units, but also provide the bulk of military civil services to their outlying sectors. Next level should be the Federal Army and Navy which is where you get the heavy response level units and iperates strictly like a normal military, that's where units like Death Squadron would operate out of. Weirdly enough I was actually designing this system for a theoretical Imperium of Man if the Horus Heresy or any like event wouldn't have occurred (yes I know th official crunch for the Emperor's plans, but I find it dumb so I made my own!)
Sorry apparently it's actually called the "last mile" problem in infrastructure and utilities.
If the Sith ended with Bane, how do you think things would have gone for the Republic? Do you think the Clone Wars would have still happened and how would they have gone? I'm curious because if they started, the Republic would have been doomed because of the CIS's massive armies and the Republic's lack of one, but then again the corporate factions and dissatisfied member worlds may not have been pushed to secede
Sector fleets were a great idea! You need organized fleets for each small part of space. Each sector has different needs. Some sectors need 12 imperial class, some need 12 smaller class. Some need 300 cruisers and frigates, some need 100 You do know the only reason it failed is cause of 1 battle, endor. The rebels couldn’t do shit and had to kill the emperor to win.
I think a good middle ground for the Republic is to maintain Medium-ish size core military primarily for pirate-hunting permanently on the Outer Rim or policing Hyperlanes. Keep them on that task full-time. It buys the Republic brownie points from grateful local citizenry and looks good on budgets while allowing them to still have something of a Federal military without it seeming excessive or unnecessary spending. To be fair, this group would probably lack any Large capital ships but at least you'd have a trained, veteran officer corps to promote up if an when a wartime footing (and full-size warships) would become necessary.
The Sector Fleet's could have worked if Palpatine wasn't huffing all that dark side meth.
They should act more like sector rangers, let the local PDF's handle in security on worlds and in system
the Sector fleet patrols between systems, coordinates with various PDF's to hunt Pirates/Fugitives or just provide backup when they need some bigger guns.
The ISD has it's uses but should actually be the least numerous in the group.
3 per sector and even then spend most of it's time at sector command if not needed for a deployment
it could have doubled as a relief ship, swap out the AT-AT's and prefab garrison bases with prefab field hospitals and medical shuttles or transport other relief supplies and personnel when not needed for a combat deployment.
Need to break a fortified pirate base with fleet?, send in the ISD to backup the sector ranger fleet.
Outbreak or natural disaster on generic world 2814? send in the ISD to help with relief efforts.
A hyperspace capable fighter corp's would help with long range patrols
where as the TIE/ln would be perfect for Planetary defense forces given how cheap they cost.
Hell the empire could have simply gone with a federally subsidized fleet standardization program.
Arquitens and Gozanti cruisers are perfect for local defense fleets and if the empire had everyone using mostly the same equipment it would simplify logistics for various worlds.
short on replacement samoflanges for your cruiser, well ask your neighboring system if they have some spares they'll trade for.
now of course different systems will have different fleet needs but standardization will probably work in most cases.
Now as for the Imperial Ranger fleets?
The Gladiator class would work as a pocket carrier for Hyperspace capable fighters
Can carry up to 2 squadrons of fighters [seems like it should be more] and has enough firepower to fight off most threats it would face in the post clonewars era.
round it out with it's own Arquitens cruisers and raider class corvettes.
I could follow up with the issues surrounding the Moff's and also jump on the bandwagon that stardust was a stupid project
but that would make this post even longer than we'd like
I like the idea of the ISD being used in more humanitarian aspects. Plenty of space to carry equipment to help assist the local populace after a war or disaster.
Written warnings in instruction manuals are worthless since rabbits can't read.
Let’s not forget the financially gargantuan super star destroyers that were built which had a more psychological than practical use. I don’t think the only weakness of the empire was the sector fleet formation but also the fact that they primarily used ISD’s instead of more practical ships like the immobilizer class and other cruiser types in dealing with the republic fleet
Seeing how the Empire never fought the (old) Republic, and is infact just the Republic rebranded, nor are Super Star Destroyers (or in reality, Star Dreadnaughts) 'impractical', nevermind that being worthlessly subjective, nor were ISDs even vaguely close to the 'primary' ship (in actual fact, ISDs make up somewhere between 1% to less than 1% of the fleet; an average Sector Fleet is 1600 combat ships, and only 24 ISDs), I don't really see your point.
The idea behind the sector fleets is a sound one the problem is that just like everything else in the imperial navy it was implemented in the worst way possible. Having a full time, properly equipped, professional navy in charge of transit lane security and anti-piracy operations is a good idea and the empire could've leveraged the wealth of the core worlds to subsidize the cost of security in the outer systems with the condition that the money saved by these systems (since they no longer have to pay for their own security) will be used to develop civilian infrastructure.
Now if the goal is to suppress piracy and rebels and insurrectionists large Tarkin doctrine capital ships is the exact WRONG ships to use.The systems that can afford to field capital ships (Alderaan, Mon Cala, Corellia, Ect..) don't have a piracy/smuggler problem. Rebels, pirates, and other non-governmental groups KNOW they can't shoot it out with the navy so they prefer fast, highly maneuverable ships instead (especially for pirates and smugglers the goal is to be able to run faster longer than the guy chasing you). The empire would've been much better served investing heavy into corvettes and frigates as those are fast enough to chase down perps and force an engagement and armed well enough to win said engagement.
While they have the Gozanti-class ships to fill in the gaps, it's an up-gunned civilian cargo ship and was not designed for combat, it's large, bulky, and worst SLOW. The fighters attached to it don't have hyperspace capabilities so if the suspects run the can't give chase and the cruiser they're attached to is too slow to force an engagement so all they can do is watch the enemy get away.
What is the ship that drops out of hyperspace at 9:07
Raider corvette from battlefront 2
First add that played before the video was a Trojan commercial I’m lmao
I seem to remember the sector fleets also jealously guarded their jurisdictions, so a fleeing rebel group could cross into a different sector and the different sector fleets would get bogged down in who should have command of the pursuit.
There should have been a more sensible compromise - lightly regulating local defence forces, perhaps limiting them to light-cruisers so they can not challenge the empire, and then putting a more efficient sector fleet to reinforce any such world with heavier forces as needed. Regular cross-training exercises would ensure rapid integration of reinforcements into a sensible command structure, whilst also impressing on the locals the power of Sector Command and providing a pipeline for the Imperials to poach promising local officers at minimal expense. Concentrating a few thousand Star Destroyers into an Imperial Fleet would have given Palpatine the ability to radically alter the balance of power in any given sector without outright replacing it's military, with enough funds left over to actually patrol the Galaxy as well.
Pop filter on Amazon $3.00 and arrives tomorrow…
Alan: Nah i already got a sock.
No joke though I had a thick wool sock (it was new and straight out of the package when I started doing it) I cut to fit my SM7B after my 2 year old thought the original was squishy and fun to play with. Worked like a champ.
Please make a video on 200 FO Stormtroopers vs 200 Clone Troopers
If you want a fair fight it would have to closer to 200 FO, 20 clones. Clones would still win tho.
@@russellharrell2747 i like clones but the 20 clones would get absolute slaughtered
If you leave too much power to the individual systems, then you get what we know in our timeline as the United Nations.
Palpatine was definitely to arrogant
Probably a edit screwup but the 1 thing ISD's were great at was long range combat cause they did have the weapons & hyperdrives.
On logistical standpoint it’s imperial way of secretly saying let’s broke every single sector one at a time
I swear alan gets a new background evey video 😂
Two questions.
1. In this video you said the 7th bright ten ISDs to Lothal. In another you said Thrawn had 25. Which is it?
2. In an earlier video you covered the Gozanti and Arquitens and said they were the ideal ships for covering the Empire and providing security, but I'm this one you described them as a weakness. It can't be both, or did I misunderstand something?
A SW 'loretuber' (ew, ew, ew) channel, which regularly peddles outright misinformation and fanon and presents it as fact which results in MASSIVE chunks of the broader fanbase being hopelessly ignorant and yet fully confident they aren't...isn't being consistent in their misinformation...? Shocking, truly. Just...shocking.
@@papapalps2415 Now, see, I was asking because I wanted an actual answer from Allen. Even within just Legends or Disney's continuity there are major foulups in keeping things straight, so it isn't necessarily any lack of consistency in the information presented, as their is a lack of consistency in the actual official information flow over the last forty plus years. Clearly you're just a jerk here to hate, so piss off.
I'm Small Government, best to keep laws and regulations, as well as social services, to a minimum.
1 maybe 2 ISDs with 25 cruisers, corvettes and frigates and escorts including carriers enough to cover 2 systems would have done better than a fleets of star destroyers, with a sector security to cover the smaller issues that are not at the local system's level.
I boil down the short lifespan of the Galactic Empire almost purely down to Palpatine running it like a complete self centered asshole with no priority for longevity. He was so focused on nonstop military industrial complex at the expense of everything else, or course the rest of the Galaxy rebelled.
If you are curious how, exactly, the Galactic Empire fell, then I would actually really highly recommend the original series Star Wars is fundamentally based on; the Star Wars Original Trilogy! There's 3 movies; Star Wars Episode IV (that means 4, to clarify): A New Hope.
Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back (HIGHLY recommend this one in particular, easily the best film, if not one of the best movies ever made!)
And Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi (the last of the original film trilogy, and the one that's most important to explaining how the Galactic Empire ultimately lost! Really quite good, although it's overall the weakest of the 3).
These should help answer your question, as you seem confused on how it happened and are resorting to fanon, when it's actually explained really nicely! I hope that helps! 😃 😊 😀
After watching Andor (which is good) the empire seemed to enjoy torturing people (which is not too suprising) but in Rebels and comics they definitely enjoyed torturing aliens (Gov Price enjoying torturing Hera Syndula)
nice video
Hey alan have you ever played outer worlds? I'd dig seeing your review on the economy of that world
Interesting.
All I'm saying, no one in the original trilogy ever got offered Death Sticks.....
The military of the republic just needs to be a small navy/marine corps plus a few army bases and starfighter bases on empty republic federally owned worlds around the edges of the territory. Then you have a separate coast guard (system guard?) that patrols in space that does law enforcement and anti-piracy within the territory. Maybe the navy patrols through maybe only every few months.
Most citizens never leave the atmosphere of their home planet so a system guard and navy will not feel like an occupation unlike federal army troops quartered in your town.
I feel like the video unintentionally seems to make more points *for* the sector fleet concept than against it. Whilst the economic and perception aspects are sound, the former is more of a criticism on the Empire's hyper-militarization in general and would apply equally to local forces raised at similar levels, whereas the latter would merely be a matter of time and propaganda or have outright sedition as its alternative.
A number of core worlds such as Anaxes were quite proud of their role for the Imperial Navy, due to a loyalist tradition dating back millennia simply being transplanted to the new regime. Similarly, very few countries in the real world still maintain non-federalized armies and even a lot of liberal democracies know the concept of "military regions" to organize federal forces in. In Star Wars, local resentment at the disbanding of planetary forces or the perception of an occupation by outside troops would most likely have faded in time just like it did in the real world. Said resentment would most likely be located in the Outer Rim, anyways, where the Empire used its oppression to crack down on perceived civil disobedience or outright crime, and if local forces didn't already manage to maintain loyalty to the central government before Coruscant's transition to a dictatorship, they certainly wouldn't somehow do so after.
Interestingly, in the old canon, where most of the information on Sector Fleets is from, the New Republic maintained a very similar system, just organized into four fleet commands for the entire galaxy, and battlegroups assigned to individual sectors. And there it worked. As such, I would argue the problem wasn't the idea of a Sector Fleet, but simply how the Empire used them, i.e. the flaws of the Tarkin Doctrine.
it why the tie fighter was mistake because rebels most on star fighter level and jumped into hyperspace once ISD showed upped. It why admiral thrown want tie fighter defender Because being smaller and cheaper it could be in more place than large ISD.
Alan hello hello my name Alan is hello
Allen hi it’s me Allen
@@GenerationTech Not Alien?
This is El Bueno 🙂
The biggest issue with the Imperial fleet is that it wasn't built to fight the rebels. In legend sources, it's pretty evident that Palpatine was building the Imperial Navy to fight the Yuzhan Vong. Why else would he make a death Star? It was so that he could use it as a weapon to destroy their massive world ships
That wasn't why the Starfleet was built primarily, no, nor is that why the Death Stars exist; this is fanon.
I can not find out info on the power level of blaster cannons like Tami & Bak Kx 9 on x wing vrs kx 5 on Y wings which is stronger? Can you find that info what ships have more powerfull blaster cannons?
The tarkin doctrine trickle down failure
When I look at a map of this galaxy, I see fully 1/3rd of it still not mapped or a part of the empire/republic! Interesting!
Excellent video essay, and as always Allen is a sexy man.
You would enjoy reading "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" by Paul Kennedy
Ah yes I see Alan is back in Coruscant 😅
Tie defenders as main fighters and a escorting fleet of corvettes , frigates ,cruisers and carriers for the Star destroyer instead of a whopping 25000 isds and. Desthstar wouldve saved the Empire ,but then they didnt have the intelligence to have a competent corruption free government and command organisation too alongwith serving the emperor instead of serving the empire
So in the end the Sector Fleet wasn't a bad idea. The bad idea was not focusing on people's welfare.
There isn't a single government today that could defend its territory or leaders from their own population in case of rebellion, even if they spend all their resources on the military. An aggravated population will always vastly outnumber the military and will improvise and overcome whatever buffed mil-tech the government has produced with money that could've been used for bettering the lives of the people.
Imperial sector fleets (forces) are comparable to Republic sector defence forces. The only difference is the Federal High Command had to convince the local sector force to reinforce another republic sector that is in need of reinforcement, while Imperial High Command directly gave orders to Moffs to transfer troops and ships from their sectors to other Moffs that need reinforcements. The problem with the Empire is that it gave Moffs too much freedom to do whatever they want with their sectors, while the Republic would usually send federal agents and/or jedi when a sector's leadership was going out of hand and there was a risk if rebellion.
* periphery
That why i don't like canon. It strip a major part of the Empire and Rebel alliance force/ship and making for the sake of nothing.
Like where is all the different high and Grand amiral fighting each other for what tactic is better ? That the all point of Zinj vs Teradoc After Endor, high power slow and giant fleet vs more small fast and agile fleet ( ISD vs Victory) or the all purpose of why they are so many high power institutions ? The Empire was build for dying if Palpatine die because he don't want to see annyone take is place never.
Another thing for empire and Rebel alliance, special operation and special force fight was the majority of engagement, Navy commando and Navy special operation force again'st rebel special force and elite squadron strike force forcing all camp to adapt. That why the rebel alliance start making more durable and powerful ship because theyr tactic falling in the long term. Empire Navy command and imperial army command structure change they'r approch, more fast vehicule and ship more ship made for capture by using stealh or really fast and manœuvrable fleet with little interdictor ship like immobilisator or tween well generation depending of the Moff/Grand Moff. That another type thing because the Galaxy is Titanic empire command structure autorise a lot of different type of vessels and vehicule, they juste want a centralise structure (ISD, Victory in capital ship, star dreadnought or battlecruiser for patrol command fleet and AT-AT and AT-ST in every army armour platoon.
So we see more interessing move and action, mentality change in the two camp, Empire using more agile quick respond fleet and the rebel alliance making more powerful and durable ship for fighting imperial reserve fleet and convoy. Yeah don't forget than a logistic imperial ship Can fight a MC80 and defend his cargaison from pirate and rebel special squadrons (The altor class more than all the other)
That why the Empire fall in every univers but in canon for some bullshit all the plan of Palpatine fail. The Warlord never make enough power or don't gain enough force why? That the all point of putting very paranoïac and good politicien and not military veteran, Kain, Zinjs, Delvarus are all politicien more than military and where some of the most powerful and dangerous Warlord for the New Republic. In other and the New Republic beginning was really chaotic but very well make, they are hate in some Space love in other and fail to retake all the Galaxy and will never take it but it still the better choice of gouvernement After Endor and After the Vong even. All start from the organisation of the Empire by Palpatine it's not just made for make the population feel incapable of fighting back it's made for if he die no one can rule the Galaxy and no one will ever be able to After Endor. And even if it not in the video i still miss the bloody and very stupid fight beetween the BSI, comporn and Imperial renseignement. And the one beetween army and Navy who make some if the most stupidly cool troop ship vehicule and hero of the Rebel alliance and Empire (Veers, Solo, Wegd, Teradoc etc)
I'm sorry, Alan, but this was just inherited from the clone sector armies, you can't blame every problem on the Empire
The empire couldn’t improve on their wartime strategy after the clone wars? 20+ years of the same deployment strategy? I definitely would blame the empire for that type of inflexibility.
Algo Bump
“Your overconfidence is your weakness.” - Luke Skywalker
Afghanistan, Vietnam?
in other words a war fleet is not the same as an anti piracy patrol fleet