I used to work for an auto repair shop that also did towing, and they had a fleet of 6-8 International 4600 with the DT466E. I was the diagnostic tech and the only diesel tech they had, so I got way more experience with these turds than I ever wanted. We had one of the trucks fail to start one day, which was pretty common and usually an injector or HP oil system issue. This time, it wasn’t. The ECM would repeatedly reset when cranking the engine. I was almost ready to put an ECM in it, but given the cost of the magic box and the fact that my employer was the customer, I was double-checking. I’d checked powers and grounds with a test light, even when cranking, and it looked fine, just a little variation in the brightness of the test light that matched the cranking of the engine, which is to be expected. I decided to check the power and ground voltage with a scope while cranking and I’m glad I did. The power supply was dropping below 4V for literally milliseconds while cranking. This was enough for the ECM to lose power and reset, but too fast to show on my test light, especially given the voltage variation when cranking anyway. I followed the power supply wires back to the battery and found that the 40A fuse holder was melted and causing a voltage drop under load. I had checked the power supply with a high amp test light and the light was bright, but the high peak current drawn by the ECM while cranking was causing an issue. I suspect that every time it tried to fire an injector, it caused a supply voltage dip that reset the ECM. For fun, I went and checked 2 of the other tow trucks that were at the shop and what do you know, the 40A fuse holder for the ECMs on those trucks were also starting to melt. The problem seems to be that 40A is too much for the small automotive fuses to handle. I honestly had never seen a 40A fuse in that size (they are usually maxi or PAL fuses, not the smaller size) and I don’t think I’ve seen one since. I cut out the small fuse holder and replaced it with a maxi fuse holder (still 40A) and the truck fired right up. The shop owner decided to do the same for all the trucks in the fleet and all of them had varying degrees of heat damage to that fuse holder. Bad design I guess. I’m not sure that was the problem you were experiencing here, but I saw that same damn 40A fuse when you were messing with the batteries and it reminded me of that. Hope you never have to work on one of these again. They suck.
I second that, I ALWAYS check every possible power or ground connection when troubleshooting a heavy duty truck… in the truck industry wiring harness are a fucking nightmare… 95% of service calls are bad terminal
@@zoidberg444 Me too! Man Kevin, That is some fantastic troubleshooting brother. I consider myself pretty good and I would have missed it. And maybe never caught it. I love this comment section..
So Wes, you’re telling me an old workhorse can’t get started in the morning without some Cosby sauce, and once it gets rolling he’s a stud all day. I believe the official condition is called being a 48 year old man. Great diag as usual.
I would argue that one winter in Illinois is like 4-5 elsewhere so that means this 20 year old truck is more like 80+ years old based on salt corrosion. Just sayin’
Wes - Two things. 1: It _USED_ to work when there was an external battery charger connected 2: The 'spikes' are being seen on a large number of sensors IMO, that's almost SHOUTING at me that there's too much electrical resistance in a ground circuit somewhere. (Especially point #2 above) When ANY injector 'fires', it is 'lifting' the ground voltage to everything (INCLUDING the ECU itself) To test my hypothesis: Grab any semi decent old car battery with some long-ish leads (possibly 2 of them in series if the injectors require 24V) Connect the negative directly to the ECU ground leads (since the injectors are 'cold side' switched through the ECU) Cut the existing positive feeds to the injectors and connect them to the car battery positive You're now 'feeding' the injectors from a totally independent power source - the truck should run just fine. Now disconnect the external battery negative from the ECU and connect it instead to the actual truck battery negative right at the truck battery itself. If it fails now, then you definitely have too much resistance in your truck battery ground/negative circuit (which is what I suspect since so many sensors are affected) The other test would be to cut the injector feeds and directly connect them to the truck battery positive to check for resistance in the positive circuit, but I seriously doubt this is the problem.
Well yes, it does scream ground fault, exept that it can carry hundreds of amps to crank the damn thing, also i belive towards the end of the video, wes says the ecm is directly grounded to the battery negative, and tested all ecm grounds with plenty of current. All i can see that he didnt (couldnt) test is if the high resistance was inside the ecm connector
Thinking about it for a while now, the only reasonable cause i see, is that the power supply of the 5v reference, and the IDM use the same ground, and every time the injector fires it elevates the common ground level, and in response the 5v supply gets elevated compared to the rest of the ground plane. Most probably a crusty connector, or water damage inside the ECU itself. As to why it runs sometimes, and why it doesent, its probably down to some magix compensation from the confuser
could be International and Ford's with the powerstrokes are known to have almost a bare minimum Electrical System and if the Medium duty trucks are anything like this Turd in the video.... likely grounds the whole engine and transmission through the Rear axel....... maybe if he Threw on a fat grounding cable it would work. or ground strap...... from the frame to the motor.
@@hordboy that or..... got a cheap ICP sensor with VREF and Data switched..... my 6.0l had that happen after i replaced the whole truck wiring harness... truck fired right up after the new ICP sensor....... couple weeks went by cranks started getting longer and longer and longer. then wouldn't start at all... Dug into it 4 hours of work....... cheap sensors are backwards somehow they WORK to begin with....... the 2 bottem pins are often switched from the plug on the truck i switched these around. Truck started right up havent had an issue since.... cheap amazon sensor i got for like 30 dollars...
I had a very similar issue on an ambulance. It was a 94 7.3. Ended up just being a leak on the HEUI system not allowing it to build enough pressure to fire the injectors. I’ll tell ya.. that engine in a van style chassis makes it very difficult to get to the problem. I wish this video existed two years ago as I didn’t even know what that system was all about.
Yep been there done that on the ambulance cut away bodies. I learned years ago to check pressures on the oil system or nothing is happening. Same thing on the 6.0 as well. Once they start taking longer to crank you better find the leak. Many times it is a bad IPR
Wes worked on my 95 E350 with the 7.3, that used to be an ambulance. I'm sure he would agree, that it's difficult to get to just about anything. My truck was eating up IDM's every 20 miles. Another mechanic put a new one in and it made it back to my house. He said it must have been a bad one, because we checked the connections and harness under the valve covers. While Wes was working on it, he found 4 wires on the firewall, that come from the IDM, that had a spot of insulation missing, all in the same spot. Maybe a mouse got hungry? Anyway, the IDM he put in is still working 2 years later. 😬
I know someone who used to work at the International dealership just a few miles East of you. He always liked the DT466, but didn't like anything else about International trucks. He quit to maintain his sanity.
I did not fall asleep. I am simply amazed at your diagnostic skill set. I have been out of the trade since 07,but I absolutely love your Video's. Keep it up.
Wes, I am a 70 year old applied mathematician who has worked in defence contexts (not in US). I have worked with PhD electrical engineers on various issues (mainly submarines ) and I like the cut of your intellectual jib. At the outset I thought to myself given the obscure algorithms in the ECM (now to be fair I have actually written some incredibly obscure algorithms for which my emplpoyer holds the patents mind you) which are beyond my detailed knowledge for cars but I I did wonder whether it was a sampling issue going on here. Your analysis is not at all fanciful and I really liked the way you abstracted the problem, What people fail to understand about many computer systems is that they are in many cases actually doing sophistcated averaging, A derivative is a species of average: [ f(x+h)-f(x)]/h. I could go on but I won't. You will get me into Kalman filters etc. Suffice it to say that you and Eric O are up there in my scheme of things. Massive respect for your work. I'd let you loose on my car .
Ha ha nerd.. ( no offense intended ) . I always wanted to become a mechatronic engineer but ended up being a mechanic. Because i found out that I'm not very comfortable with maths .
Heui systems always do the weirdest stuff when old. Had a 6.0 power stroke once that had a complaint of oil gets too hot low power etc, but if an oil change is done that problem goes away and then slowly comes back. After a lot of head scratching and using a little parts swapping turns out the hpop was internally leaking, bypassing the oil cooler. But when you changed the oil the new additives sealed that leak for a little while. Most infuriating thing to figure out lol.
On early computerized engines, like in the 70's (my screen name), broken solder joints in the computer could often be diagnosed by kicking the computer when problems happened. Maybe your fiddling with those bolts on the computer and back probing the connector caused a temporary fix. Should have drove it after it started at the end to see if it had power. p.s. thanks for showing your notes. I haven't seen cursive writing in decades. Good to see that some people are still using it. It was actually legible, unlike mine if I tried it. Your drawings are good too.
An electronics nerd friend of mine back in the mid eighties thought it was ridiculous that one of the diagnostic tools for a failing ECM was to tap on it. I might have kicked it if i'd of had a good shot at it LOL. The difference was, what he was working on didn't vibrate down the highway or live in sub zero to over 100 deg temperature swings.
I have never heard the term cursive writing, however I used to do this but write the letters over the top of each other. Vents the anger without anyone being able to read what you put, usually about them.
What you are dealing with in this one is very close to home for me. There are a lot of these 466e and 444 (powerstroke) local to me that I have spent a significant amount of time on. There are so many possibilities that its most likely multiple things, for example. Had a few Intertrashional 466 plow trucks that the engine harness would have salt and water intrusion in multiple spots in the wiring harness. Voltage from one inject might fire another or send cam signal to each injector simultaneously. Have seen the HPOP fail to supply the correct pressures from electrical (IPR) or mechanical (cracked heads, cracked injectors, or bad pump), All of the electronic control diesels have their own piles of unmitigated garbage that come along with them, save for the smaller cummins. The really redeeming factor for them is they weigh 1800-2500lbs, so at least you get a few sandwiches worth when you crush the trucks.
I don't know squat about electronic controlled diesels, but I know lots about salt corrosion living in Northern NYS. I was thinking it's corrosion down in all that wiring that's getting sprayed with salt water all winter long. I don't care how "waterproof" they make that ECM computer, I bet the inside is damp with salt water.
I noticed an F which looked like the one in the Ford logo! Cursive has its place, but most people's cursive is hard to read. I am one of the proponents of getting it out of school curriculums. Those who want to write in cursive can learn it on their own - it can't be that difficult...
we used to have a fleet of 2004 4400 Internationals with the DT466E. They look nothing like what you have there. We would run into an issue with the engine having a long crank/no start due to a bad o ring where the oil rail meets the head under the valve cover. This would create a hard start, and if bad enough, a no start situation. Diag would be to disconnect the oil feed hose from the HPOP to the head, run a 150 psi to the fitting and watch drop off on the gauge as well as the ICP pid on the scan tool. if pressure fell off the cliff on the gauge, and the pid value was way off the supplied pressure, the o-ring shit the bed. I agree, this is a bad design, with multiple redesigns all the way up to the maxxforce engines. I have seen the screens on the IPR shattered, ICP failures, we even had an issue with the ecm being filled with oil, only guess is it traveled up the wiring as the outside of the ecm way dry. sorry see this one was a bust. Keep up the great content.
Wes , you are an amazing troubleshooter. This design seems over complicated. I assume that you get a lot of work that other folks couldn’t figure out. That’s a good reputation to have. Thanks for sharing
@@vg3430 He's a helluva lot more capable than 98% of diy mechanics who, like myself, don't know the first thing about reading electrical signals and scopes. This result is a lot closer to the solution than most can do. Also he posts interesting stuff to youtube, not the stuff that makes the most money. Nobody wants to see a Camry's brake pads being replaced. He doesn't always win against the machines either. It's a bit of an accomplishment to be as capable as he is on so many different makes an models.
@@vg3430 it might be the ECM aka it's probably ECM unless it has a short in the loom... All this breaks down to someone who's smart enough to understand you never guarantee a diagnosis if you can't test your solution and he knows he can't test the solution without a different ECM
I'm a mechanic of 35+years,worked on everything from chain saws to excavators, diagnostics wont make you rich but you always have a job.great approach.
Sounds like there’s an awful lot of people giving advice albeit well intentioned, in the comments, not sure how helpful that is for you Wes after you’ve worked on the truck. How can you find time to run a business, have a well adjusted family (with dog) produce videos, edit them and then read the comments? Hats off mate! I’m sad enough to procrastinate over all the things I’m supposed to be doing to watch your videos almost as soon as they are posted! I look forward to your productions and can even understand the technical side (well, sort of…) but marvel at your tenacity although your exasperation at times is palpable! 🇦🇺
Wes, you must have the patience of Job, how on earth do you get to the bottom of these problems, I doff my cap to you my friend, you're an inspiration, trying to explain to a customer the amount of your time spent diagnosing, must be difficult.
Your patience amazes me, of course I wouldn't be in business very long when I "sadly" report to the customer, I'm sorry there's been a fire and your rig burned to the ground. That would be more believable than someone stole this rig wouldn't it?
I spent the better part of the last week troubleshooting a low rail pressure and high rail pressure code on a cat C6.6 in a D6N. It was a huge pain in the ass to figure out. It would run fine at low load but when you pushed a full blade of dirt the rail pressure would be about 2000psi lower than desired and it would code. Then the rail pressure would get "stuck" about 5000psi higher than desired and set a hi pressure code. Got all the way through the cat troubleshooting guide with no fix. Finally tried a new injection pump and it runs better than new.
Wes- I really enjoy your diagnosing skills. I am also a mechanical engineer (retired) , I worked in the construction industry with large scale A/C & Heating systems so I can relate to what you are doing and you are doing one hell of a job. I wish I was close enough to you to bring some of my junk to you.
Wes one thing that you have to remember, the design engineers don't work on the equipment that they design. They are only interested in the power lines going where they think it should be going. You are striking for Sainthood but the customer isn't going to understand what you have to do to trouble shoot a problem.
That's a terrible practice that a lot of automobile companies have. The engineers never have to work on their products. I think the engineers should have to spend a week per year in a repair shop before they actually get to design new products.
@@henryD9363 A fortnight every 3 months. I've worked somewhere that had that rule (not for design engineers, but for the bosses). Drag someone on $200k+ out of their comfy office and tell them to stack empty pallets in the rain in the middle of winter and suddenly we all got new wet weather gear. Or hand unload trucks in 40°C -- suddenly there's plenty of cold drinks being delivered on a regular basis.
I really admire how your engineering education is applied to real world problems, and results in practical solutions. I am, however, disappointed in that you have become well known because of your ability to repair rusty heaps of junk that get deposited on your doorstep. I just marvel at what you could do with modern, good condition equipment that had serious technical problems.
We had a 2/12 ton truck in Viet Nam that was hard to start because it had no starter. We pushed it with a 5 ton dump. Yes it did run all day, or we were walking back. The Vietnamese got the new stuff, we got WWII 3/4 tons, and WWII C rations. We should have purchased a starter on the black market for 2 cartons of cigarettes. It would have been delivered in one day.
Welcome Home, and Thank you for your service. My late father served in aviation twice there and one tour in Thailand, his last rotation with A/1/9 Cav. He passed away in 2004, so I kinda look at all Nam vets as Dad.
I can tell you we had a newer model that would not start. We changed the oil and it would start right up. The oil was getting thinned with fuel and it would not build pressure. Ended up pulling the injectors replacing the o-rings and the pucks that seal the injectors to the rail. Found a bad o-ring letting fuel into oil. You can put a pressure gauge on to check the fuel pressure and high pressure oil. Be interesting to see if an oil change makes it any better or not. Yes the wiring sucks on these things.
That could also be the answer why it fires up perfect when cold In my opinion if it starts Well when cold and doesnt when warm you can forget about the electronics
Trouble is ECM faults have the same hysteresis as common electrical faults but we learn to usually trust the ecm data because of a lower failure rate. Nice work in trusting your diagnosis.
After watching your work on the International makes me feel nostalgic for the old Roosa Master injection pumps. I give you credit, when it comes to diagnosis you are like a cross dog with a bone. Never give up never give in.
I've seen issues with starting these forever... numerous issues...high pressure pumps..warped oil rails..icp sensors or coils..cracked front structures..faulty fuel check valves,..corroded ecm and/or plugs..etc . In the fleet of 40 of these treasures I was blessed to work on for 8 years...I think only one had a bad ecm . Without a good diagnostic laptop it's hard to pinpoint...ours was ok but always needed updates ...it was in for repairs more than the trucks were lol . One thing comes to mind..you mentioned it starts when cold...if it has issues once warm.. I've seen faulty icp valves..or the orings on it bad . But one of the first areas of concern for me is the wiring plugs going to the ecm...those o rings are so thin they only have one side lol . I've seen water get in them and corrode many times..a thorough cleaning is often the solution .
Hit that ecm with a hair dryer when it’s cold and see if it fires up before you call it. I’d also check the alternator and make sure your not getting any alternating current out of it messing with the ecm.
Wes, it seems to me you've been issued a permanent pass ticket to the struggle bus. Front row seat with a 500 pound gorilla between you and whatever item you're trying to diagnose. But we have faith in you Wes, we know the next episode in the Wes Struggle Bus our intrepid Wes will achieve success over the engine Gremlins and be victorious. The celebrations shall be glorious ✨️ 🙌 😀
Your electrical diagnostic ability still blows my mind! Been watching you for years and definitely have learned a lot. Gave me the confidence to tackle a head gasket job on a 07 Ram 1500 with the poo-tastic 4.7L. Thanks for sharing your infinite wisdom!
Hi Wes thanks for taking us along, you’ve definitely got the patience of a saint! Is it just me why can’t we keep things simple you know like the good old days of mechanical timing and mechanical injection pumps no frigin computers or sensors, maybe I’m just getting old and crusty.
Wes, I can teel you one of my customer's paid an International dealer $600 dollars to hook up there magic book to their truck and told them of the fuse problem above the batteries. One fuse being power to the ECM. They didn't carry any thing to fix it with them but were willing to wasting 6 hours running back to the shop to maybe getting parts to fix it. Customer called me and I cut out those fuses and installed butt connectors. Another one of my customer just had bought a 4400 IHC from a fuel company. they carried a jump pack to get it started. I did the same with that one and it hasn't been a problem since.
Oh wow… it would be super interesting to see what went bad in the ECM. I had a car ECM “rebuilt” or repaired where it only had the start issue once it was hot. They found it by hairdrying the ECM, got it all re-soldered and it’s been good for years now. I guess internal wiring for these are highly confidential, but it would be awesome to see what broke or grounds internally for these spikes to appear. Or maybe blowing some heat on the ECM before cold-starting could prove that heat in it provides the workaround… Perplexing for sure, thanks for filming it!
You want an answer? All you got to do is connect someone like buildzoid he breaks down board views of video cards and odds are he could figure it out, also look up gentry & sons trucking on TH-cam they recently did a video with a man repaired ECU for semi's awesome shit.
Wes, this is actually fairly common and the symptoms overlap a number of possible causes, some of the more common are: 1) Low/no oil in the HPOP reservoir, 2) Low ACTUAL ICP during cranking (sensors LIE), 3) Make sure you get 35ish psi of fuel pressure at cranking and if not Inspect the check-ball in the fuel strainer and the regulator on the return fitting if EFP is low or rises slowly. Lastly, the HPOP must be force-fed by engine oil pressure. It's not the ECM, or at least I'm saying it's not ;)
My 466 had no start condition code was cam sensor bad it turned out to be a green corroded connector on the ecm cleaned it with deox cleaner and a brush and packed it with dielectric grease and that fixed it.
Wes you are a good mechanic but your diagnostic skills and explanation of what you are doing and looking for are just top notch. There are good mechanics all over the place but what you are doing is much more than just a mechanic. Great stuff on this channel as usual.
Boy do I admire your patience! Long before you gave up I would have been roasting hotdogs over an International grill with a roaring diesel fuel fire. Back in the days when I worked on junk and far from the complicated level of junk you diagnose I kept an old car rim with a sledge hammer next to it...my pressure relief valve so that when things were going like the IHC I would beat the Hell out of the rim, I found that was cheaper than destroying whatever I was working on.
@@thehulkamaniabrother2.089 haha, you can substitute almost any township name in there and expect the same answer when it comes to spending money !! LOL
2 minutes into the video my first thought was "Worn injectors" needing a rebuild - or shimming of the poppet plates. Same symptoms on my '01 7.3 F250.... But computer - good diagnosis.... Glad you isolated it - whether or not the customer can/wants to get a new one.
Wes - you are oh so close! The most likely problem is excessive resistance at the connector to the PCM ... you won't see the voltage drop when back-probing pins but there will be a voltage difference across the PCM connector which will be proportional to PCM current (in your case, probably from injector current). This will cause the PCM ground to be "lifted" with respect to chassis ground. When you disconnected and reconnected the PCM (and added dialectric grease?) you probably "cleaned" the connector contacts to a degree. If the problem is still present, you may be able to remove one of the PCM ground wires (cut, etc) and monitor the voltage on the PCM side of that wire ... I'm sure you'll see the voltage drop mentioned. Alternatively, if you were to unhook (cut off) 3 of the 6 injectors, you should see the lifted ground voltage reduce (as measured by the "lifting" of your measured waveforms from what should be ground on your scope). What I believe is happening is as current flows you're getting a voltage difference between PCM ground and chassis ground. Your back-probing proved the chassis grounds are ok, but your voltage waveforms indicate the PCM ground is "lifting" because of the darn voltage across the connectors - the degree of lifting should be proportional to PCM current. If the grounds are grouped together (they are probably not) you could run all of them through your current probe and you'll see a current waveform synchronous "lifted" waveforms you've observed. You could also probably measure the current on the supply side of the PCM. BTW - I'm an electrical engineer who designs microcontrollers for PCMs, ECU's, and other controllers. Sometimes we see OEM's undersize their ground wires during design which cause similar (and interesting to diagnose) problems ... once you've been around the block a time or two - particularly with erratic sensor readings - you become aware of this issue. Your keen intuition, experience, and creativity (including methodical diagnosis) is appreciated as are your efforts to entertain us with your work!
Sitting on a sunny mountainside in Asia on a Sunday morning marveling at your skills ! CNC to large diesels and seemingly everything in between . The videos are awesome - you are a true master of your skills.
Your understanding of electronics and the control circuits in the modern engines astounds me. This one was a real stumper and the worst part is that we will probably never know if the computer is what finally fixes it. I love watching both you and South Main Auto for the depth of diagnostics you guys go to, and your explanations of the circuits.
In the area of your concern (fuel sensor, valve; injectors) I would do an ohms check between all wires (after unplugging all connectors). As was mentioned, possible salt incursion might be making a low-ohms path between circuits that are supposed to be isolated. Also, check ohms of each of those connectors (point-to-point), including grounds. I bet you'll find either low ohms where there shouldn't be, or high ohms where there should be zero ohms. Also do voltage drop test (using scope) for ground and power at the ECM while cranking. Some of the above has been suggested by others here in the comments.
Wes, i totally agree with the placement of the engine control module. Completely buried behind all kinds of things. It would help my feelings to get a punch into the face of the genius that designed it.
I didn’t understand a whole lot of that. Wiring a plug and an on-line food shop are the extent of my electrical and computer skills, but I’m mighty impressed by your diagnostic skills and the presentation makes it very watchable. I am amazed at some of the junk you manage to keep on the road. In the UK most of your projects would have been scrapped years ago.
The hump you are seeing is probably voltage drop on the ground wires/connections. Depending where you connect your scope ground it will measure the voltage drop of some wires. As the injectors need a substantial amount of current, they will give you the biggest voltage drop. When you disconnect the injectors you don't have the high current peaks anymore and no voltage drops either. Maybe you could use your current clamp to check the wires that carry the injector currents from battery to the ecu and reinforce those wires for lower resistance and lower voltage drop. Or You could use the scope to measure the voltage drops on power and grounds on the ecu. That would be better than using the light bulb probe. Maybe if you change your scope ground to the ecu you eliminate your voltage drop measurements and that would help identify the no start issue. That is my guess.
Yes, looks like ground issues. ECU has bad ground so it is pulling current through sensor grounds. Test lights are not good for testing grounds especially with an ECU. Internally the ECU connects them together. One can be open and the light will show a ground as it runs through the ECU to a working ground. Unplugging the ECU and testing powers and grounds will show valid information.
I was tending toward an earth issue as well, most likely a dodgy chassis earth somewhere on the block. My next step would be to Megger each earth but that would require disconnecting the ecu so I think Wes has got as far as can be done without committing to an ecu replacement.
@@thehulkamaniabrother2.089 A Megger is a brand name for a high, very high, resistance tester. It is used to test insulator effectiveness. It subjects the insulator under test to high voltages, typically 100s to 1000s (and up) Volts while measuring micro Amps of leakage, resulting in effective measurements in the 1000 mega ohm range.
I ran into this many times working at Ryder Truck Rental. Injectors needed replaced.Internals were worn out inside Injectors and would not start after a cold soak.Once fired on ether would start all day.
The fuel delivery is a function of injector pulsewidth and oil pressure. The injector is a 7:1 intensifier pump, so at 3000psi oil pressure you reach 21000psi injection pressure. From what I've seen on my 7.3 the computer tries to keep the injectors at 2-4ms and increases oil pressure to get additional fuel mass flow as RPM and boost rises.
I never worked in one of them but I drove them for over 20 years til I talked management into buying Peterbuilts. I spent many hours on the roadside or at the garage watching others fix the stupid things! Great video!!
Way back in the early '60's I worked in a truck garage as an apprentice, during the winter months I had to go around starting trucks using "Easy Start" an ether based product, and there was no doubt once you used it on a truck regularly it got addicted to it and wouldn't start without it. We had to supply the drivers with a tin or two of the stuff because when they were away from base they needed it ...
This reminds me of an old video Eric O did about silver migration in the instrument panel of older Chevys causing similar weirdness. Makes me wonder if the same thing is happening inside of the PCM and starting to cause tiny shorts. Tiny shorts are only desirable on hot girls. Not on guys, and especially not on trucks.
Wes, that was brilliant, I didn't understand a word of your carefully reasoned arguments but it's obvious you know what you are talking about which is why I watch you !
Enjoyed the video Wes. I don’t have too much experience on the older 466e models. But from what I have seen on all older internationals, is the ecm power and ground weather pack connectors are notorious for having high resistance due to spread terminals. This will cause a hard start issue and ecm power down issue. There should be 3 weatherpack connections, one at the battery box, one by the starter, and one by the firewall (driver side). I know you checked the powers and grounds at the ecm with a test light. But to verify whether these ecm powers and grounds are the problem, what I would do is, before starting the truck, after a 48hr cold soak. Back probe the ecm connector at the powers and grounds like you had them. And see if you have sufficient enough voltage and a good ground with the key on and while cranking. You can even supply your own power and ground while cranking to see if this is your issue. Also do you think that you have a parasitic draw on your batteries that could be causing a ecm power down the longer it sits?
I hung in with you the whole way. Didn't understand a lot but your shared thinking helped a lot. I enjoy your problem solving skills and actually over the time of this video I began to understand a lot more. It stayed interesting for me right up to the end so you are doing something right. Thanks. I look forward to the next one, Wes!
You have *WAAAY* more patience than all of us! I would have been pulling out my hair in clumps Wes. Hats off to you for trying your best to figure it out. That truck needs parted out! LOL 😂 Take care my friend 🙂👍
Wes I had an international 9400i I bought for super cheap when I started driving over the road for myself. Had it for 3 years. Whooooo doggy you aren't wrong. Everything on them is just HARD to work on. Also surprise surprise I had random electrical issues all the time because their harnesses are god awful. 3 years of constant repairs. The head gasket was starting to go so I took it back to the auction. Have had a freight liner for awhile now. AMAZINGLY easy to work on in comparison. Love the content and trouble shooting. you do one hell of a job to find answers on stuff.
The real crazy thing is what changes after ~48 hours that hasn't changed already in ~24 hours? Could it be a very slow capacitor drain in the ECU? Because any pressure related systems surely would have leaked down or de-pressurized within the first 24.
somethings on the circuit board causing that.. gentry and sons just found a guy who can reprogram these computer chips.. he has advanced motherboard machines
I just came down in the comments looking to see where I could throw my hat in for the 'bad cap' theory. Those spikes look to be a signal that maybe should otherwise be smoothed out by a capacitor. Besides that, maybe one has just puked its guts out and also playing havoc with actual traces on the board, shorting things out and making spurious signals internally. I wish it was being replaced though, I'd love to see the actual innards of it.
Would a bad cap get better by getting hot, though? -there's also the long delay before it acts up again. It's not going to get any colder sitting more than 6 hours or so. Only thing I can think of is leaky semiconductors in the driver circuits... that has similar symptoms in automation, where, e.g., machines act up the first couple hours after having been off for the weekend. Seen that a couple of times and each time it was the interface circuitry between the 5V logic and the actual machinery.
I was willing to bet that those voltage spikes were EMF induced from the injectors firing. Im not sure if those harnesses are shielded or not, but I’ve seen the same thing happen when the shielding gets broken or damaged and looses its ground connection. It can also happen inside the ecm if there’s a faulty capacitor on 5v regulator circuit on the board, the injector driver circuitry draws a lot of current when the injectors fire and if there isn’t sufficient smoothing capacitance in the regulator circuit it will sense that voltage drop on the power input side to the ecm and try to compensate by increasing the output until it senses that’s too high causing it to loop cyclically. “The stupidest design anyone could come up with” yup… sounds like everything International/Navistar 😆
I have a feeling that parts of the design are handed off to the experienced engineers, and parts are given to the interns, at least I hope it's that way...
I think you are on to something white capacitators, If they are bad they often come back white some heat. ill bet if you take your whifes hairdryer and heat up the ecm it starts.....
My first thought was it being a voltage regulator issue. Could be a flaky mosfet or cap in the circuit. If it were me, I'd have split the ECU open to take a look. Then again I'm not running a shop...
@@foxyloon I agree. I work for a heavy equipment corporate dealership and anytime I find a bad controller I always crack it open to see what failed. Many many times it’s either the TVS protection diodes, or a ground path diode (I’m guessing for reverse polarity protection?). It amazes me that we have to charge the customer $3-5k for a new controller when a $0.10 diode and ten minutes of soldering would fix it 😬
I remember back in the 90s I considered buying an International road truck, but I found out they had a problem with wiring in the sleepers and fires starting apparently because of cheap wiring, so I ended up going with Kenworth and never had wiring problems other than usual corrosion problems with connectors on lights.
That is definitely the ECM module. The problem with replacing them is that they have to have the correct program installed. And yes you are correct. The dealer has to do that. And yepper ... about 2 grand.
Great diagnostic. What a pain of a design to work on and try to find a fault. Can't beat the old mechanical high pressure fuel pumps on older diesel engines. Very reliable and work after years of not being used.
Hi Wes, as an old electronics tech we found that some times adding heat or cold to the device would cause it to change states. try heating with a heat gun to see if anything changes, if so freeze spray and try again. Rich
@@WatchWesWork what I meant was you could heat specific parts, like the computer. connectors and sensors one at a time and try to start. Good luck Rich
I worked on these type of trucks for N.Y.S that were used on the 90 interstate. The ECM wire connectors use to get pin corrosion from plowing and salting. I did many replacement pins in the connectors and somethings you had to just cut out the connector and reconnect each pair of wires individually. Salt kills wires.
I won't pretend to know anything about this engine/system, but I kept asking myself what difference is there between cranking and running (after starting with ether)? You mentioned RPM, and that may be the important one, but the one that springs to my mind is the large starter ground current. I'd try unbolting, cleaning, and reconnecting each ground connection in the starter ground circuit. I've seen tightly bolted high current connections that were almost completely insulated by corrosion. Some connections can be temperature dependent, which might explain why this engine will restart easily if still warm. If you get it started when cold, can you shut it off and restart normally, or do you have to wait the 3-4 minutes, until you get throttle response, for it to restart? Ask the customer if this problem is worse in cold weather. Yes, it sucked that you were not able to get into all the connections to the ECU. The problem certainly could be there. I couldn't quite visualize what the problem was, but making those connections impossible to troubleshoot is certainly FUBAR. BTW, keep in mind that your cute little test light has about 1/10 the resistance when cold, so it can draw about 10x the current on pulses that are too short to warm it up. Finally, I love the way you work your way thru a problem, by taking data and following it. You clearly understand what you're trying to do, even when you're faced with something that's not making sense.
I was working for the C&NW RR, it was -10 deg, the END SD40 with a 16 cyl 645 cu per cyl died and wouldnt start, the shop foreman told me to buy two 16 oz cans fo ether, opened the air box cover on each side , duct tape the cans and toss in the air box and close the covers, what a violent start but I saved the locomotive with 350 gal of water (no antifreeze)
To anyone who is interested. When your diesel is cranking and not starting. Take a spritz bottle and put some transmission fluid in it. Transmission fluid that does not have friction modifier. You can use any generic kind and it will work. When you are cranking the engine with the engine filter off spray a very small amount of the transmission fluid into the intake. That should help to start your engine for you.
Morning Wes love watching your channel your the man you can get anything working. It my take a time or two, but you don't give up. Have a bless weekend and prayers for your family and your dog
Every single International I've ever driven (26 years driving) has had electrical problems. One of the national carriers I drove for installed master disconnect switches under the driver's seat, so when the ecm wigged out you could reach down and shut it off, and reset the ecm with a power down.
Have a 3126 in a fl70 that was a bear to start when cold. Similar to this one and had no throttle response for a while. Pulled the valve cover and cranked it one day and had 3 injectors not squirting oil. Let it warm up and reved it and 2 started dumping oil. On a budget so I replaced 1 injector and she starts great now. As far as I can tell the 3 non functional injectors wasn't letting it build injector oil pressure
I so wish you were local to me, fighting electrical gremlins on my truck pulling my hair out knowing there’s something stupid going on but not wanting to take it to someone who’s just going to start blasting the parts cannon at it is quite a struggle. Love your content as always
I used to work for an auto repair shop that also did towing, and they had a fleet of 6-8 International 4600 with the DT466E. I was the diagnostic tech and the only diesel tech they had, so I got way more experience with these turds than I ever wanted.
We had one of the trucks fail to start one day, which was pretty common and usually an injector or HP oil system issue. This time, it wasn’t. The ECM would repeatedly reset when cranking the engine. I was almost ready to put an ECM in it, but given the cost of the magic box and the fact that my employer was the customer, I was double-checking. I’d checked powers and grounds with a test light, even when cranking, and it looked fine, just a little variation in the brightness of the test light that matched the cranking of the engine, which is to be expected. I decided to check the power and ground voltage with a scope while cranking and I’m glad I did. The power supply was dropping below 4V for literally milliseconds while cranking. This was enough for the ECM to lose power and reset, but too fast to show on my test light, especially given the voltage variation when cranking anyway. I followed the power supply wires back to the battery and found that the 40A fuse holder was melted and causing a voltage drop under load. I had checked the power supply with a high amp test light and the light was bright, but the high peak current drawn by the ECM while cranking was causing an issue. I suspect that every time it tried to fire an injector, it caused a supply voltage dip that reset the ECM. For fun, I went and checked 2 of the other tow trucks that were at the shop and what do you know, the 40A fuse holder for the ECMs on those trucks were also starting to melt. The problem seems to be that 40A is too much for the small automotive fuses to handle. I honestly had never seen a 40A fuse in that size (they are usually maxi or PAL fuses, not the smaller size) and I don’t think I’ve seen one since. I cut out the small fuse holder and replaced it with a maxi fuse holder (still 40A) and the truck fired right up. The shop owner decided to do the same for all the trucks in the fleet and all of them had varying degrees of heat damage to that fuse holder. Bad design I guess.
I’m not sure that was the problem you were experiencing here, but I saw that same damn 40A fuse when you were messing with the batteries and it reminded me of that.
Hope you never have to work on one of these again. They suck.
I second that, I ALWAYS check every possible power or ground connection when troubleshooting a heavy duty truck… in the truck industry wiring harness are a fucking nightmare… 95% of service calls are bad terminal
God damn it!
That would have totally got me. I would have believed my test light and moved on.
@@zoidberg444 Me too! Man Kevin, That is some fantastic troubleshooting brother. I consider myself pretty good and I would have missed it. And maybe never caught it. I love this comment section..
40 amp fuse? You mean rats nest of fuses and wiring..no wonder the shit melts lol
L
Retired from a metro detroit municipality and we avoided international like the plague for the very reason your dealing with.
What did you guys go with? Just curious
So Wes, you’re telling me an old workhorse can’t get started in the morning without some Cosby sauce, and once it gets rolling he’s a stud all day. I believe the official condition is called being a 48 year old man. Great diag as usual.
Hmm. Story checks out, but this rig is only 20.
@@WatchWesWork old enough
I would argue that one winter in Illinois is like 4-5 elsewhere so that means this 20 year old truck is more like 80+ years old based on salt corrosion. Just sayin’
Wes - Two things.
1: It _USED_ to work when there was an external battery charger connected
2: The 'spikes' are being seen on a large number of sensors
IMO, that's almost SHOUTING at me that there's too much electrical resistance in a ground circuit somewhere. (Especially point #2 above)
When ANY injector 'fires', it is 'lifting' the ground voltage to everything (INCLUDING the ECU itself)
To test my hypothesis:
Grab any semi decent old car battery with some long-ish leads (possibly 2 of them in series if the injectors require 24V)
Connect the negative directly to the ECU ground leads (since the injectors are 'cold side' switched through the ECU)
Cut the existing positive feeds to the injectors and connect them to the car battery positive
You're now 'feeding' the injectors from a totally independent power source - the truck should run just fine.
Now disconnect the external battery negative from the ECU and connect it instead to the actual truck battery negative right at the truck battery itself.
If it fails now, then you definitely have too much resistance in your truck battery ground/negative circuit (which is what I suspect since so many sensors are affected)
The other test would be to cut the injector feeds and directly connect them to the truck battery positive to check for resistance in the positive circuit, but I seriously doubt this is the problem.
Well yes, it does scream ground fault, exept that it can carry hundreds of amps to crank the damn thing, also i belive towards the end of the video, wes says the ecm is directly grounded to the battery negative, and tested all ecm grounds with plenty of current. All i can see that he didnt (couldnt) test is if the high resistance was inside the ecm connector
Thinking about it for a while now, the only reasonable cause i see, is that the power supply of the 5v reference, and the IDM use the same ground, and every time the injector fires it elevates the common ground level, and in response the 5v supply gets elevated compared to the rest of the ground plane. Most probably a crusty connector, or water damage inside the ECU itself. As to why it runs sometimes, and why it doesent, its probably down to some magix compensation from the confuser
I bet the sensor reference ground in the ECU is smoked. Diode protected, somebody once hooked a battery charger up backwards, voila.
could be International and Ford's with the powerstrokes are known to have almost a bare minimum Electrical System and if the Medium duty trucks are anything like this Turd in the video.... likely grounds the whole engine and transmission through the Rear axel....... maybe if he Threw on a fat grounding cable it would work. or ground strap...... from the frame to the motor.
@@hordboy that or..... got a cheap ICP sensor with VREF and Data switched..... my 6.0l had that happen after i replaced the whole truck wiring harness... truck fired right up after the new ICP sensor....... couple weeks went by cranks started getting longer and longer and longer. then wouldn't start at all...
Dug into it 4 hours of work....... cheap sensors are backwards somehow they WORK to begin with....... the 2 bottem pins are often switched from the plug on the truck i switched these around. Truck started right up havent had an issue since.... cheap amazon sensor i got for like 30 dollars...
I had a very similar issue on an ambulance. It was a 94 7.3. Ended up just being a leak on the HEUI system not allowing it to build enough pressure to fire the injectors. I’ll tell ya.. that engine in a van style chassis makes it very difficult to get to the problem. I wish this video existed two years ago as I didn’t even know what that system was all about.
Yep been there done that on the ambulance cut away bodies. I learned years ago to check pressures on the oil system or nothing is happening. Same thing on the 6.0 as well. Once they start taking longer to crank you better find the leak. Many times it is a bad IPR
Wes worked on my 95 E350 with the 7.3, that used to be an ambulance. I'm sure he would agree, that it's difficult to get to just about anything. My truck was eating up IDM's every 20 miles. Another mechanic put a new one in and it made it back to my house. He said it must have been a bad one, because we checked the connections and harness under the valve covers. While Wes was working on it, he found 4 wires on the firewall, that come from the IDM, that had a spot of insulation missing, all in the same spot. Maybe a mouse got hungry? Anyway, the IDM he put in is still working 2 years later. 😬
I know someone who used to work at the International dealership just a few miles East of you. He always liked the DT466, but didn't like anything else about International trucks. He quit to maintain his sanity.
"Rust Belt Shaman" would be a great name for a TH-cam channel.
Can't believe someone brought you a plow truck when it's not the busiest part of their season and they dont need it back in 12 hours
Spring and summer, they use a plow to loosen all the gravel shoulders and shove them back onto the lawns.
Generally we wait until it's snowing to do this stuff lol.
I did not fall asleep.
I am simply amazed at your diagnostic skill set.
I have been out of the trade since 07,but I absolutely love your Video's.
Keep it up.
Wes, I am a 70 year old applied mathematician who has worked in defence contexts (not in US). I have worked with PhD electrical engineers on various issues (mainly submarines ) and I like the cut of your intellectual jib. At the outset I thought to myself given the obscure algorithms in the ECM (now to be fair I have actually written some incredibly obscure algorithms for which my emplpoyer holds the patents mind you) which are beyond my detailed knowledge for cars but I I did wonder whether it was a sampling issue going on here. Your analysis is not at all fanciful and I really liked the way you abstracted the problem, What people fail to understand about many computer systems is that they are in many cases actually doing sophistcated averaging, A derivative is a species of average: [ f(x+h)-f(x)]/h. I could go on but I won't. You will get me into Kalman filters etc. Suffice it to say that you and Eric O are up there in my scheme of things. Massive respect for your work. I'd let you loose on my car .
Ha ha nerd.. ( no offense intended ) . I always wanted to become a mechatronic engineer but ended up being a mechanic. Because i found out that I'm not very comfortable with maths .
Heui systems always do the weirdest stuff when old. Had a 6.0 power stroke once that had a complaint of oil gets too hot low power etc, but if an oil change is done that problem goes away and then slowly comes back. After a lot of head scratching and using a little parts swapping turns out the hpop was internally leaking, bypassing the oil cooler. But when you changed the oil the new additives sealed that leak for a little while. Most infuriating thing to figure out lol.
On early computerized engines, like in the 70's (my screen name), broken solder joints in the computer could often be diagnosed by kicking the computer when problems happened. Maybe your fiddling with those bolts on the computer and back probing the connector caused a temporary fix. Should have drove it after it started at the end to see if it had power.
p.s. thanks for showing your notes. I haven't seen cursive writing in decades. Good to see that some people are still using it. It was actually legible, unlike mine if I tried it. Your drawings are good too.
Writing or speaking, I'd be cursing too after that one.
An electronics nerd friend of mine back in the mid eighties thought it was ridiculous that one of the diagnostic tools for a failing ECM was to tap on it. I might have kicked it if i'd of had a good shot at it LOL. The difference was, what he was working on didn't vibrate down the highway or live in sub zero to over 100 deg temperature swings.
I have never heard the term cursive writing, however I used to do this but write the letters over the top of each other. Vents the anger without anyone being able to read what you put, usually about them.
Working on a 76 280Z right now. Grounds seem to be a big issue with that year car.
@@philtowle4683 That's a good one Phil. New interpretation to me. I've never heard it used in that way before.
What you are dealing with in this one is very close to home for me. There are a lot of these 466e and 444 (powerstroke) local to me that I have spent a significant amount of time on. There are so many possibilities that its most likely multiple things, for example. Had a few Intertrashional 466 plow trucks that the engine harness would have salt and water intrusion in multiple spots in the wiring harness. Voltage from one inject might fire another or send cam signal to each injector simultaneously. Have seen the HPOP fail to supply the correct pressures from electrical (IPR) or mechanical (cracked heads, cracked injectors, or bad pump),
All of the electronic control diesels have their own piles of unmitigated garbage that come along with them, save for the smaller cummins. The really redeeming factor for them is they weigh 1800-2500lbs, so at least you get a few sandwiches worth when you crush the trucks.
That sounds like a nightmare. Good to know that this sort of thing can happen....
I don't know squat about electronic controlled diesels, but I know lots about salt corrosion living in Northern NYS. I was thinking it's corrosion down in all that wiring that's getting sprayed with salt water all winter long. I don't care how "waterproof" they make that ECM computer, I bet the inside is damp with salt water.
Dude....you hit that nail square on the head. No pond is deep enough!
9
Cursive writing is a lost art, nicely done!
I noticed an F which looked like the one in the Ford logo! Cursive has its place, but most people's cursive is hard to read. I am one of the proponents of getting it out of school curriculums. Those who want to write in cursive can learn it on their own - it can't be that difficult...
we used to have a fleet of 2004 4400 Internationals with the DT466E. They look nothing like what you have there. We would run into an issue with the engine having a long crank/no start due to a bad o ring where the oil rail meets the head under the valve cover. This would create a hard start, and if bad enough, a no start situation. Diag would be to disconnect the oil feed hose from the HPOP to the head, run a 150 psi to the fitting and watch drop off on the gauge as well as the ICP pid on the scan tool. if pressure fell off the cliff on the gauge, and the pid value was way off the supplied pressure, the o-ring shit the bed.
I agree, this is a bad design, with multiple redesigns all the way up to the maxxforce engines. I have seen the screens on the IPR shattered, ICP failures, we even had an issue with the ecm being filled with oil, only guess is it traveled up the wiring as the outside of the ecm way dry. sorry see this one was a bust. Keep up the great content.
$$$$33³3
Your right I didn't read your comment before I put the something lol icp ipr and o rings for the high pressure rail
Nobody can say you don't try hard. What an awesome job you do.
Wes , you are an amazing troubleshooter. This design seems over complicated. I assume that you get a lot of work that other folks couldn’t figure out. That’s a good reputation to have. Thanks for sharing
He didn’t fix anything. He “thinks” it “might” be the ECM. Exactly what did he troubleshoot?
That type of work doesn't produce good profit. And profit keeps the doors open. At some point it begins to eat your lunch.
@@vg3430 He's a helluva lot more capable than 98% of diy mechanics who, like myself, don't know the first thing about reading electrical signals and scopes. This result is a lot closer to the solution than most can do. Also he posts interesting stuff to youtube, not the stuff that makes the most money. Nobody wants to see a Camry's brake pads being replaced. He doesn't always win against the machines either. It's a bit of an accomplishment to be as capable as he is on so many different makes an models.
@@vg3430 it might be the ECM aka it's probably ECM unless it has a short in the loom... All this breaks down to someone who's smart enough to understand you never guarantee a diagnosis if you can't test your solution and he knows he can't test the solution without a different ECM
I respect your knowledge of how this stuff should work and you do not give up easily.
I'm a mechanic of 35+years,worked on everything from chain saws to excavators, diagnostics wont make you rich but you always have a job.great approach.
Big thanks for the work you put into these episodes Wes!
Sounds like there’s an awful lot of people giving advice albeit well intentioned, in the comments, not sure how helpful that is for you Wes after you’ve worked on the truck.
How can you find time to run a business, have a well adjusted family (with dog) produce videos, edit them and then read the comments? Hats off mate!
I’m sad enough to procrastinate over all the things I’m supposed to be doing to watch your videos almost as soon as they are posted!
I look forward to your productions and can even understand the technical side (well, sort of…) but marvel at your tenacity although your exasperation at times is palpable! 🇦🇺
Wes, you must have the patience of Job, how on earth do you get to the bottom of these problems, I doff my cap to you my friend, you're an inspiration, trying to explain to a customer the amount of your time spent diagnosing, must be difficult.
Whether you fixed it or not, I love the way you walk us through your incredible thinking!!!
Your patience amazes me, of course I wouldn't be in business very long when I "sadly" report to the customer, I'm sorry there's been a fire and your rig burned to the ground. That would be more believable than someone stole this rig wouldn't it?
I spent the better part of the last week troubleshooting a low rail pressure and high rail pressure code on a cat C6.6 in a D6N. It was a huge pain in the ass to figure out. It would run fine at low load but when you pushed a full blade of dirt the rail pressure would be about 2000psi lower than desired and it would code. Then the rail pressure would get "stuck" about 5000psi higher than desired and set a hi pressure code. Got all the way through the cat troubleshooting guide with no fix. Finally tried a new injection pump and it runs better than new.
@@mmm365 well 9000 hours and poor maintenance history may have played a part in it
@@mmm365 on a small machine like a d6n it's a fair bit. More than half way through its life
Wes- I really enjoy your diagnosing skills. I am also a mechanical engineer (retired) , I worked in the construction industry with large scale A/C & Heating systems so I can relate to what you are doing and you are doing one hell of a job. I wish I was close enough to you to bring some of my junk to you.
On behalf of Wes, think nothing of it, really. Keep your junk away from him. :)
I am "sure" Wes would love to see your "little treasures". It is his missus you want to keep an eye on.
Wes is the only mechanic I know that has a LightHouse to test for 12 volts.
I think Eric O showed us that.
Wes one thing that you have to remember, the design engineers don't work on the equipment that they design. They are only interested in the power lines going where they think it should be going. You are striking for Sainthood but the customer isn't going to understand what you have to do to trouble shoot a problem.
but the ecm is right in the open on the test stand lol
That's a terrible practice that a lot of automobile companies have. The engineers never have to work on their products. I think the engineers should have to spend a week per year in a repair shop before they actually get to design new products.
@@henryD9363 A fortnight every 3 months. I've worked somewhere that had that rule (not for design engineers, but for the bosses). Drag someone on $200k+ out of their comfy office and tell them to stack empty pallets in the rain in the middle of winter and suddenly we all got new wet weather gear. Or hand unload trucks in 40°C -- suddenly there's plenty of cold drinks being delivered on a regular basis.
I really admire how your engineering education is applied to real world problems, and results in practical solutions. I am, however, disappointed in that you have become well known because of your ability to repair rusty heaps of junk that get deposited on your doorstep. I just marvel at what you could do with modern, good condition equipment that had serious technical problems.
HEUI was a CAT invention. Navistar USED to take power and grounds from the starter lugs. That caused a ton of issues, ask JB Hunt.
At least it wasn't snowing, I feel your pain.
Love the WES CAD, excellent sketch.
Thanks for sharing
We had a 2/12 ton truck in Viet Nam that was hard to start because it had no starter. We pushed it with a 5 ton dump. Yes it did run all day, or we were walking back. The Vietnamese got the new stuff, we got WWII 3/4 tons, and WWII C rations. We should have purchased a starter on the black market for 2 cartons of cigarettes. It would have been delivered in one day.
Welcome Home, and Thank you for your service. My late father served in aviation twice there and one tour in Thailand, his last rotation with A/1/9 Cav. He passed away in 2004, so I kinda look at all Nam vets as Dad.
Wes would have built a starter out of a walkie talkie 😅😂
I can tell you we had a newer model that would not start. We changed the oil and it would start right up. The oil was getting thinned with fuel and it would not build pressure. Ended up pulling the injectors replacing the o-rings and the pucks that seal the injectors to the rail. Found a bad o-ring letting fuel into oil. You can put a pressure gauge on to check the fuel pressure and high pressure oil. Be interesting to see if an oil change makes it any better or not. Yes the wiring sucks on these things.
that's interesting and good to know
Ding Ding Ding ?
That could also be the answer why it fires up perfect when cold
In my opinion if it starts Well when cold and doesnt when warm you can forget about the electronics
@@bertjetolberg103
But the truck didnt start when cold if left for 48hrs........
Trouble is ECM faults have the same hysteresis as common electrical faults but we learn to usually trust the ecm data because of a lower failure rate. Nice work in trusting your diagnosis.
Over the pond,very little Huey systems,thank god,but a good diagnosis,thanks for the video.
After watching your work on the International makes me feel nostalgic for the old Roosa Master injection pumps. I give you credit, when it comes to diagnosis you are like a cross dog with a bone. Never give up never give in.
I've seen issues with starting these forever... numerous issues...high pressure pumps..warped oil rails..icp sensors or coils..cracked front structures..faulty fuel check valves,..corroded ecm and/or plugs..etc . In the fleet of 40 of these treasures I was blessed to work on for 8 years...I think only one had a bad ecm . Without a good diagnostic laptop it's hard to pinpoint...ours was ok but always needed updates ...it was in for repairs more than the trucks were lol . One thing comes to mind..you mentioned it starts when cold...if it has issues once warm.. I've seen faulty icp valves..or the orings on it bad . But one of the first areas of concern for me is the wiring plugs going to the ecm...those o rings are so thin they only have one side lol . I've seen water get in them and corrode many times..a thorough cleaning is often the solution .
A good way to start the day with the word we all like to hear, "crusty"
Actually, the words I like to hear are, “Howdy, folks”. 😁👍🔧🧰
Hit that ecm with a hair dryer when it’s cold and see if it fires up before you call it. I’d also check the alternator and make sure your not getting any alternating current out of it messing with the ecm.
Oh man,New videos by watch Wes work,salvage workshop AND diesel Creek all in an hour! What a treat 🙏 thank you
Wes, it seems to me you've been issued a permanent pass ticket to the struggle bus.
Front row seat with a 500 pound gorilla between you and whatever item you're trying to diagnose.
But we have faith in you Wes, we know the next episode in the Wes Struggle Bus our intrepid Wes will achieve success over the engine Gremlins and be victorious.
The celebrations shall be glorious ✨️ 🙌 😀
Your electrical diagnostic ability still blows my mind! Been watching you for years and definitely have learned a lot. Gave me the confidence to tackle a head gasket job on a 07 Ram 1500 with the poo-tastic 4.7L.
Thanks for sharing your infinite wisdom!
4.7 is way better then 5.7 hemi
@@drivingmylifeaway7149 lol! Words I've never heard anyone say...
4.7 is a great motor, you just can't do routine maintenance.
@@lmCIoudz not my rig smarty pants.🤣
"Your", not "you are"
Hi Wes thanks for taking us along, you’ve definitely got the patience of a saint! Is it just me why can’t we keep things simple you know like the good old days of mechanical timing and mechanical injection pumps no frigin computers or sensors, maybe I’m just getting old and crusty.
Pull the ECU and start replacing leaky Caps, clean up the board, always great to watch the channel, great content and diagnostics.
Those international trucks are complete nightmares. Nice job on this one
Great video despite no real resolution. Love this diagnostic stuff.
Wes, I can teel you one of my customer's paid an International dealer $600 dollars to hook up there magic book to their truck and told them of the fuse problem above the batteries. One fuse being power to the ECM. They didn't carry any thing to fix it with them but were willing to wasting 6 hours running back to the shop to maybe getting parts to fix it. Customer called me and I cut out those fuses and installed butt connectors. Another one of my customer just had bought a 4400 IHC from a fuel company. they carried a jump pack to get it started. I did the same with that one and it hasn't been a problem since.
Oh wow… it would be super interesting to see what went bad in the ECM.
I had a car ECM “rebuilt” or repaired where it only had the start issue once it was hot. They found it by hairdrying the ECM, got it all re-soldered and it’s been good for years now.
I guess internal wiring for these are highly confidential, but it would be awesome to see what broke or grounds internally for these spikes to appear.
Or maybe blowing some heat on the ECM before cold-starting could prove that heat in it provides the workaround…
Perplexing for sure, thanks for filming it!
You want an answer? All you got to do is connect someone like buildzoid he breaks down board views of video cards and odds are he could figure it out, also look up gentry & sons trucking on TH-cam they recently did a video with a man repaired ECU for semi's awesome shit.
Wes, this is actually fairly common and the symptoms overlap a number of possible causes, some of the more common are: 1) Low/no oil in the HPOP reservoir, 2) Low ACTUAL ICP during cranking (sensors LIE), 3) Make sure you get 35ish psi of fuel pressure at cranking and if not Inspect the check-ball in the fuel strainer and the regulator on the return fitting if EFP is low or rises slowly. Lastly, the HPOP must be force-fed by engine oil pressure. It's not the ECM, or at least I'm saying it's not ;)
My 466 had no start condition code was cam sensor bad it turned out to be a green corroded connector on the ecm cleaned it with deox cleaner and a brush and packed it with dielectric grease and that fixed it.
@zookeeperJohnG. I agree. have worked on 20+ of these all with either HP oil leaks or fuel prime issues.
Wes you are a good mechanic but your diagnostic skills and explanation of what you are doing and looking for are just top notch. There are good mechanics all over the place but what you are doing is much more than just a mechanic. Great stuff on this channel as usual.
Boy do I admire your patience! Long before you gave up I would have been roasting hotdogs over an International grill with a roaring diesel fuel fire. Back in the days when I worked on junk and far from the complicated level of junk you diagnose I kept an old car rim with a sledge hammer next to it...my pressure relief valve so that when things were going like the IHC I would beat the Hell out of the rim, I found that was cheaper than destroying whatever I was working on.
Really enjoy your diagnostic explanations and the graphics you draw.
I would love to hear what they decide to do and if the problem was eventually solved. Nice video, thanks!
its a township truck, they wont spend the money to fix it, i bet they will buy a case of starting fluid and toss it in the cab LOL
Michael yep is Vernon township lolz
@@thehulkamaniabrother2.089 haha, you can substitute almost any township name in there and expect the same answer when it comes to spending money !! LOL
@@warrenmichael918 that's because the money is going into someone's pocket before it gets spent on a new truck...
@@thehulkamaniabrother2.089 Oh, so the States is the same as the UK then? 🥴🥴🤣🤣
2 minutes into the video my first thought was "Worn injectors" needing a rebuild - or shimming of the poppet plates. Same symptoms on my '01 7.3 F250.... But computer - good diagnosis.... Glad you isolated it - whether or not the customer can/wants to get a new one.
Fyi, rewatching because the knowledge of all machines is never enough and your videos are extremely educational and entertaining! Keep it goin Wes
Wes - you are oh so close! The most likely problem is excessive resistance at the connector to the PCM ... you won't see the voltage drop when back-probing pins but there will be a voltage difference across the PCM connector which will be proportional to PCM current (in your case, probably from injector current). This will cause the PCM ground to be "lifted" with respect to chassis ground.
When you disconnected and reconnected the PCM (and added dialectric grease?) you probably "cleaned" the connector contacts to a degree. If the problem is still present, you may be able to remove one of the PCM ground wires (cut, etc) and monitor the voltage on the PCM side of that wire ... I'm sure you'll see the voltage drop mentioned. Alternatively, if you were to unhook (cut off) 3 of the 6 injectors, you should see the lifted ground voltage reduce (as measured by the "lifting" of your measured waveforms from what should be ground on your scope).
What I believe is happening is as current flows you're getting a voltage difference between PCM ground and chassis ground. Your back-probing proved the chassis grounds are ok, but your voltage waveforms indicate the PCM ground is "lifting" because of the darn voltage across the connectors - the degree of lifting should be proportional to PCM current. If the grounds are grouped together (they are probably not) you could run all of them through your current probe and you'll see a current waveform synchronous "lifted" waveforms you've observed. You could also probably measure the current on the supply side of the PCM.
BTW - I'm an electrical engineer who designs microcontrollers for PCMs, ECU's, and other controllers. Sometimes we see OEM's undersize their ground wires during design which cause similar (and interesting to diagnose) problems ... once you've been around the block a time or two - particularly with erratic sensor readings - you become aware of this issue.
Your keen intuition, experience, and creativity (including methodical diagnosis) is appreciated as are your efforts to entertain us with your work!
Sitting on a sunny mountainside in Asia on a Sunday morning marveling at your skills ! CNC to large diesels and seemingly everything in between . The videos are awesome - you are a true master of your skills.
Your understanding of electronics and the control circuits in the modern engines astounds me. This one was a real stumper and the worst part is that we will probably never know if the computer is what finally fixes it. I love watching both you and South Main Auto for the depth of diagnostics you guys go to, and your explanations of the circuits.
In the area of your concern (fuel sensor, valve; injectors) I would do an ohms check between all wires (after unplugging all connectors). As was mentioned, possible salt incursion might be making a low-ohms path between circuits that are supposed to be isolated.
Also, check ohms of each of those connectors (point-to-point), including grounds. I bet you'll find either low ohms where there shouldn't be, or high ohms where there should be zero ohms.
Also do voltage drop test (using scope) for ground and power at the ECM while cranking.
Some of the above has been suggested by others here in the comments.
Wes, i totally agree with the placement of the engine control module. Completely buried behind all kinds of things. It would help my feelings to get a punch into the face of the genius that designed it.
I mostly came here to see all the posts from people that don't know the difference between "your" and "you're". I wasn't disappointed.
Oh thank goodness for that, i couldn't find anything to watch and was about to go sleep...thanks for the video Wes!!
I didn’t understand a whole lot of that. Wiring a plug and an on-line food shop are the extent of my electrical and computer skills, but I’m mighty impressed by your diagnostic skills and the presentation makes it very watchable.
I am amazed at some of the junk you manage to keep on the road. In the UK most of your projects would have been scrapped years ago.
The hump you are seeing is probably voltage drop on the ground wires/connections. Depending where you connect your scope ground it will measure the voltage drop of some wires. As the injectors need a substantial amount of current, they will give you the biggest voltage drop. When you disconnect the injectors you don't have the high current peaks anymore and no voltage drops either. Maybe you could use your current clamp to check the wires that carry the injector currents from battery to the ecu and reinforce those wires for lower resistance and lower voltage drop. Or You could use the scope to measure the voltage drops on power and grounds on the ecu. That would be better than using the light bulb probe. Maybe if you change your scope ground to the ecu you eliminate your voltage drop measurements and that would help identify the no start issue. That is my guess.
Good advice, sir!
Yes, looks like ground issues. ECU has bad ground so it is pulling current through sensor grounds. Test lights are not good for testing grounds especially with an ECU. Internally the ECU connects them together. One can be open and the light will show a ground as it runs through the ECU to a working ground.
Unplugging the ECU and testing powers and grounds will show valid information.
I was tending toward an earth issue as well, most likely a dodgy chassis earth somewhere on the block. My next step would be to Megger each earth but that would require disconnecting the ecu so I think Wes has got as far as can be done without committing to an ecu replacement.
@@elanman608 what does megger mean?
@@thehulkamaniabrother2.089 A Megger is a brand name for a high, very high, resistance tester. It is used to test insulator effectiveness. It subjects the insulator under test to high voltages, typically 100s to 1000s (and up) Volts while measuring micro Amps of leakage, resulting in effective measurements in the 1000 mega ohm range.
I ran into this many times working at Ryder Truck Rental. Injectors needed replaced.Internals were worn out inside Injectors and would not start after a cold soak.Once fired on ether would start all day.
The fuel delivery is a function of injector pulsewidth and oil pressure. The injector is a 7:1 intensifier pump, so at 3000psi oil pressure you reach 21000psi injection pressure. From what I've seen on my 7.3 the computer tries to keep the injectors at 2-4ms and increases oil pressure to get additional fuel mass flow as RPM and boost rises.
I never worked in one of them but I drove them for over 20 years til I talked management into buying Peterbuilts. I spent many hours on the roadside or at the garage watching others fix the stupid things! Great video!!
“Here’s the part that’s gonna bake your noodle”: this is my favorite Wesism of the video. 😂🤣😂👍❤️🔧
Way back in the early '60's I worked in a truck garage as an apprentice, during the winter months I had to go around starting trucks using "Easy Start" an ether based product, and there was no doubt once you used it on a truck regularly it got addicted to it and wouldn't start without it. We had to supply the drivers with a tin or two of the stuff because when they were away from base they needed it ...
This reminds me of an old video Eric O did about silver migration in the instrument panel of older Chevys causing similar weirdness. Makes me wonder if the same thing is happening inside of the PCM and starting to cause tiny shorts.
Tiny shorts are only desirable on hot girls. Not on guys, and especially not on trucks.
Wes, that was brilliant, I didn't understand a word of your carefully reasoned arguments but it's obvious you know what you are talking about which is why I watch you !
Enjoyed the video Wes. I don’t have too much experience on the older 466e models. But from what I have seen on all older internationals, is the ecm power and ground weather pack connectors are notorious for having high resistance due to spread terminals. This will cause a hard start issue and ecm power down issue. There should be 3 weatherpack connections, one at the battery box, one by the starter, and one by the firewall (driver side). I know you checked the powers and grounds at the ecm with a test light. But to verify whether these ecm powers and grounds are the problem, what I would do is, before starting the truck, after a 48hr cold soak. Back probe the ecm connector at the powers and grounds like you had them. And see if you have sufficient enough voltage and a good ground with the key on and while cranking. You can even supply your own power and ground while cranking to see if this is your issue. Also do you think that you have a parasitic draw on your batteries that could be causing a ecm power down the longer it sits?
I hung in with you the whole way. Didn't understand a lot but your shared thinking helped a lot. I enjoy your problem solving skills and actually over the time of this video I began to understand a lot more. It stayed interesting for me right up to the end so you are doing something right. Thanks. I look forward to the next one, Wes!
You have *WAAAY* more patience than all of us! I would have been pulling out my hair in clumps Wes. Hats off to you for trying your best to figure it out. That truck needs parted out! LOL 😂 Take care my friend 🙂👍
Wes I had an international 9400i I bought for super cheap when I started driving over the road for myself. Had it for 3 years. Whooooo doggy you aren't wrong. Everything on them is just HARD to work on. Also surprise surprise I had random electrical issues all the time because their harnesses are god awful. 3 years of constant repairs. The head gasket was starting to go so I took it back to the auction. Have had a freight liner for awhile now. AMAZINGLY easy to work on in comparison. Love the content and trouble shooting. you do one hell of a job to find answers on stuff.
The real crazy thing is what changes after ~48 hours that hasn't changed already in ~24 hours? Could it be a very slow capacitor drain in the ECU? Because any pressure related systems surely would have leaked down or de-pressurized within the first 24.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Bad cap on the circuit board.
somethings on the circuit board causing that.. gentry and sons just found a guy who can reprogram these computer chips.. he has advanced motherboard machines
I just came down in the comments looking to see where I could throw my hat in for the 'bad cap' theory. Those spikes look to be a signal that maybe should otherwise be smoothed out by a capacitor. Besides that, maybe one has just puked its guts out and also playing havoc with actual traces on the board, shorting things out and making spurious signals internally. I wish it was being replaced though, I'd love to see the actual innards of it.
Would a bad cap get better by getting hot, though? -there's also the long delay before it acts up again. It's not going to get any colder sitting more than 6 hours or so. Only thing I can think of is leaky semiconductors in the driver circuits... that has similar symptoms in automation, where, e.g., machines act up the first couple hours after having been off for the weekend. Seen that a couple of times and each time it was the interface circuitry between the 5V logic and the actual machinery.
We just sent one of the ECUs on a big truck into Cardone to rebuild it. Not because we wanted to but couldn't find anyone else who would touch it.
Being honest, binge watching my man Wes a night or two a week makes me Leary of ever owning another automobile. I’m getting a horse
I was willing to bet that those voltage spikes were EMF induced from the injectors firing. Im not sure if those harnesses are shielded or not, but I’ve seen the same thing happen when the shielding gets broken or damaged and looses its ground connection.
It can also happen inside the ecm if there’s a faulty capacitor on 5v regulator circuit on the board, the injector driver circuitry draws a lot of current when the injectors fire and if there isn’t sufficient smoothing capacitance in the regulator circuit it will sense that voltage drop on the power input side to the ecm and try to compensate by increasing the output until it senses that’s too high causing it to loop cyclically.
“The stupidest design anyone could come up with” yup… sounds like everything International/Navistar 😆
I have a feeling that parts of the design are handed off to the experienced engineers, and parts are given to the interns, at least I hope it's that way...
I think you are on to something white capacitators, If they are bad they often come back white some heat. ill bet if you take your whifes hairdryer and heat up the ecm it starts.....
My first thought was it being a voltage regulator issue. Could be a flaky mosfet or cap in the circuit. If it were me, I'd have split the ECU open to take a look. Then again I'm not running a shop...
@@foxyloon I agree. I work for a heavy equipment corporate dealership and anytime I find a bad controller I always crack it open to see what failed. Many many times it’s either the TVS protection diodes, or a ground path diode (I’m guessing for reverse polarity protection?). It amazes me that we have to charge the customer $3-5k for a new controller when a $0.10 diode and ten minutes of soldering would fix it 😬
Remember folks! If the oscilloscope doesn't show a failure condition... It never happened!
Excellent video and troubleshooting skills, as always!
I remember back in the 90s I considered buying an International road truck, but I found out they had a problem with wiring in the sleepers and fires starting apparently because of cheap wiring, so I ended up going with Kenworth and never had wiring problems other than usual corrosion problems with connectors on lights.
there's a reason these problems have been going on for a long time, hard to track down and fix. good work wes.
That is definitely the ECM module. The problem with replacing them is that they have to have the correct program installed. And yes you are correct. The dealer has to do that. And yepper ... about 2 grand.
Great diagnostic. What a pain of a design to work on and try to find a fault. Can't beat the old mechanical high pressure fuel pumps on older diesel engines. Very reliable and work after years of not being used.
Your perseverance is 2nd to none , ya magnificent trouble-shootin bastard !
Have a great weekend my friend. 👍 🍺
Appalling wiring harnesses and install. Why on earth are these things made so complicated? You did a great job analysing this.
Thank you Wes! Best mechanic content on TH-cam!
someday I hope to have your patience and thorough problem solving abilities. you are a smart, smart man
Hi Wes, as an old electronics tech we found that some times adding heat or cold to the device would cause it to change states. try heating with a heat gun to see if anything changes, if so freeze spray and try again.
Rich
Sounds like that would work to me, since once it runs and drives for bit it will start right up.
I don't know it it's temperature related. It restarted fine after 24 hours.
@@WatchWesWork what I meant was you could heat specific parts, like the computer. connectors and sensors one at a time and try to start.
Good luck Rich
What is freeze spray?
@@giggiddy Plumbers use freeze spray to temporary stop flow on a pipe.
I worked on these type of trucks for N.Y.S that were used on the 90 interstate. The ECM wire connectors use to get pin corrosion from plowing and salting. I did many replacement pins in the connectors and somethings you had to just cut out the connector and reconnect each pair of wires individually. Salt kills wires.
I won't pretend to know anything about this engine/system, but I kept asking myself what difference is there between cranking and running (after starting with ether)? You mentioned RPM, and that may be the important one, but the one that springs to my mind is the large starter ground current. I'd try unbolting, cleaning, and reconnecting each ground connection in the starter ground circuit. I've seen tightly bolted high current connections that were almost completely insulated by corrosion.
Some connections can be temperature dependent, which might explain why this engine will restart easily if still warm. If you get it started when cold, can you shut it off and restart normally, or do you have to wait the 3-4 minutes, until you get throttle response, for it to restart? Ask the customer if this problem is worse in cold weather.
Yes, it sucked that you were not able to get into all the connections to the ECU. The problem certainly could be there. I couldn't quite visualize what the problem was, but making those connections impossible to troubleshoot is certainly FUBAR.
BTW, keep in mind that your cute little test light has about 1/10 the resistance when cold, so it can draw about 10x the current on pulses that are too short to warm it up.
Finally, I love the way you work your way thru a problem, by taking data and following it. You clearly understand what you're trying to do, even when you're faced with something that's not making sense.
I was working for the C&NW RR, it was -10 deg, the END SD40 with a 16 cyl 645 cu per cyl died and wouldnt start, the shop foreman told me to buy two 16 oz cans fo ether, opened the air box cover on each side , duct tape the cans and toss in the air box and close the covers, what a violent start but I saved the locomotive with 350 gal of water (no antifreeze)
Ivan would click his headlamp off and say "we have an interesting case study here. "
To anyone who is interested. When your diesel is cranking and not starting. Take a spritz bottle and put some transmission fluid in it. Transmission fluid that does not have friction modifier. You can use any generic kind and it will work. When you are cranking the engine with the engine filter off spray a very small amount of the transmission fluid into the intake. That should help to start your engine for you.
Morning Wes love watching your channel your the man you can get anything working. It my take a time or two, but you don't give up. Have a bless weekend and prayers for your family and your dog
Electronics are a pain in the butt. Much respect for your perseverance
Every single International I've ever driven (26 years driving) has had electrical problems. One of the national carriers I drove for installed master disconnect switches under the driver's seat, so when the ecm wigged out you could reach down and shut it off, and reset the ecm with a power down.
Have a 3126 in a fl70 that was a bear to start when cold. Similar to this one and had no throttle response for a while. Pulled the valve cover and cranked it one day and had 3 injectors not squirting oil. Let it warm up and reved it and 2 started dumping oil. On a budget so I replaced 1 injector and she starts great now. As far as I can tell the 3 non functional injectors wasn't letting it build injector oil pressure
Wow! Great troubleshooting. Also, the side of the engine seems a bad place to put a computer module considering vibration, heat, and oil intrusion.
I so wish you were local to me, fighting electrical gremlins on my truck pulling my hair out knowing there’s something stupid going on but not wanting to take it to someone who’s just going to start blasting the parts cannon at it is quite a struggle. Love your content as always
Cheap solution: thin tube from intake to the cabin connected to a ether can.
hot crimp a can cap (with nozzle) to the tube, makes a solid connection and it's easy to change cans when you run out