International DT466E Won't Start without Ether after Sitting
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- This 2002 International 7400 plow truck with a DT466E engine won't start after sitting for 48 hours or more. It cranks fine but won't start without ether. We diagnose the HEUI system and find a bizarre failure.
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Retired from a metro detroit municipality and we avoided international like the plague for the very reason your dealing with.
What did you guys go with? Just curious
Wes, this is actually fairly common and the symptoms overlap a number of possible causes, some of the more common are: 1) Low/no oil in the HPOP reservoir, 2) Low ACTUAL ICP during cranking (sensors LIE), 3) Make sure you get 35ish psi of fuel pressure at cranking and if not Inspect the check-ball in the fuel strainer and the regulator on the return fitting if EFP is low or rises slowly. Lastly, the HPOP must be force-fed by engine oil pressure. It's not the ECM, or at least I'm saying it's not ;)
My 466 had no start condition code was cam sensor bad it turned out to be a green corroded connector on the ecm cleaned it with deox cleaner and a brush and packed it with dielectric grease and that fixed it.
@zookeeperJohnG. I agree. have worked on 20+ of these all with either HP oil leaks or fuel prime issues.
Thanks for the real world video. Nice use of the scope again, much better than somebody replacing all kinds of parts and it still doesn't start. Even if it's a little boring to watch sometimes.
I could watch this diagnostic stuff all day; just fascinating, albeit not necessarily good for your mental health!
I’ll throw my hat into the ring and suggest bad capacitors inside the ECM as far as what’s causing the voltage spikes. Might be worth fighting with it to pull the ECM, open it up, and at least take a look in there. Of course, it might be potted in silicone or similar in there, which would make a repair virtually impossible.
Nice 1 as always. Brain hurts a little. Couldn’t imagine working on it for 5-6 hours. 😂
I can't help but laugh. I said everything you said more colorfully when ever I worked on my 6.0 navstar! Never been more happy to ditch that truck!
Add a gen set auto start controller and program it to start every 24hrs!
Excellent video thank you, all the best to you and your loved ones
We had this same problem, it was a oil seal on the high pressure oil pump.
The HEUI system was Caterpillars patent. It was licensed to International to be used on their engines. It is not a complicated system. You need a computer program that will monitor ICP. First let the truck set 2-3 days and remove the engine oil temp sensor. If little to no oil comes out of the reservoir you have a front cover gasket issue that is allowing the oil to leak out of the HEUI reservoir which will cause the issue you have. It is likely a slow leak that’s why it fires back up if it doesn’t sit that long.
No I checked that long ago.
Thanks Wes, I'm glad I'm retired! Best wishes on that noodle baker!
I loath that engine. We had a 4700 at my last job(feedlot) that was slightly older. When it ran, it was a great truck. When it didn't it was a nightmare. That heui system is unnecessarily complicated and I didn't have the diagnostic tools to work on it. Our local international shop is horrible and crooks. No other local truck shop shop would touch it. The internet, lots of time, and pure luck was the only way I kept it running. It did this exact thing the week I quit. International said it needed a new engine, no further explanation. To my knowledge it's still mothballed.
I had a similar issue on a 7.3 and it was the valve cover harnesses.
I got 03 3126 does simular thing. Hard to start but sometimes it fires right up when settling a day or two... my old 92 dt360 mechanical truck starts every time .
I used to work for an auto repair shop that also did towing, and they had a fleet of 6-8 International 4600 with the DT466E. I was the diagnostic tech and the only diesel tech they had, so I got way more experience with these turds than I ever wanted.
We had one of the trucks fail to start one day, which was pretty common and usually an injector or HP oil system issue. This time, it wasn’t. The ECM would repeatedly reset when cranking the engine. I was almost ready to put an ECM in it, but given the cost of the magic box and the fact that my employer was the customer, I was double-checking. I’d checked powers and grounds with a test light, even when cranking, and it looked fine, just a little variation in the brightness of the test light that matched the cranking of the engine, which is to be expected. I decided to check the power and ground voltage with a scope while cranking and I’m glad I did. The power supply was dropping below 4V for literally milliseconds while cranking. This was enough for the ECM to lose power and reset, but too fast to show on my test light, especially given the voltage variation when cranking anyway. I followed the power supply wires back to the battery and found that the 40A fuse holder was melted and causing a voltage drop under load. I had checked the power supply with a high amp test light and the light was bright, but the high peak current drawn by the ECM while cranking was causing an issue. I suspect that every time it tried to fire an injector, it caused a supply voltage dip that reset the ECM. For fun, I went and checked 2 of the other tow trucks that were at the shop and what do you know, the 40A fuse holder for the ECMs on those trucks were also starting to melt. The problem seems to be that 40A is too much for the small automotive fuses to handle. I honestly had never seen a 40A fuse in that size (they are usually maxi or PAL fuses, not the smaller size) and I don’t think I’ve seen one since. I cut out the small fuse holder and replaced it with a maxi fuse holder (still 40A) and the truck fired right up. The shop owner decided to do the same for all the trucks in the fleet and all of them had varying degrees of heat damage to that fuse holder. Bad design I guess.
I’m not sure that was the problem you were experiencing here, but I saw that same damn 40A fuse when you were messing with the batteries and it reminded me of that.
Hope you never have to work on one of these again. They suck.
I second that, I ALWAYS check every possible power or ground connection when troubleshooting a heavy duty truck… in the truck industry wiring harness are a fucking nightmare… 95% of service calls are bad terminal
God damn it!
That would have totally got me. I would have believed my test light and moved on.
@@zoidberg444 Me too! Man Kevin, That is some fantastic troubleshooting brother. I consider myself pretty good and I would have missed it. And maybe never caught it. I love this comment section..
40 amp fuse? You mean rats nest of fuses and wiring..no wonder the shit melts lol
L
On early computerized engines, like in the 70's (my screen name), broken solder joints in the computer could often be diagnosed by kicking the computer when problems happened. Maybe your fiddling with those bolts on the computer and back probing the connector caused a temporary fix. Should have drove it after it started at the end to see if it had power.
p.s. thanks for showing your notes. I haven't seen cursive writing in decades. Good to see that some people are still using it. It was actually legible, unlike mine if I tried it. Your drawings are good too.
Writing or speaking, I'd be cursing too after that one.
An electronics nerd friend of mine back in the mid eighties thought it was ridiculous that one of the diagnostic tools for a failing ECM was to tap on it. I might have kicked it if i'd of had a good shot at it LOL. The difference was, what he was working on didn't vibrate down the highway or live in sub zero to over 100 deg temperature swings.
I have never heard the term cursive writing, however I used to do this but write the letters over the top of each other. Vents the anger without anyone being able to read what you put, usually about them.
Working on a 76 280Z right now. Grounds seem to be a big issue with that year car.
@@philtowle4683 That's a good one Phil. New interpretation to me. I've never heard it used in that way before.
I had a very similar issue on an ambulance. It was a 94 7.3. Ended up just being a leak on the HEUI system not allowing it to build enough pressure to fire the injectors. I’ll tell ya.. that engine in a van style chassis makes it very difficult to get to the problem. I wish this video existed two years ago as I didn’t even know what that system was all about.
Yep been there done that on the ambulance cut away bodies. I learned years ago to check pressures on the oil system or nothing is happening. Same thing on the 6.0 as well. Once they start taking longer to crank you better find the leak. Many times it is a bad IPR
Wes worked on my 95 E350 with the 7.3, that used to be an ambulance. I'm sure he would agree, that it's difficult to get to just about anything. My truck was eating up IDM's every 20 miles. Another mechanic put a new one in and it made it back to my house. He said it must have been a bad one, because we checked the connections and harness under the valve covers. While Wes was working on it, he found 4 wires on the firewall, that come from the IDM, that had a spot of insulation missing, all in the same spot. Maybe a mouse got hungry? Anyway, the IDM he put in is still working 2 years later. 😬
Big thanks for the work you put into these episodes Wes!
This reminds me of an old video Eric O did about silver migration in the instrument panel of older Chevys causing similar weirdness. Makes me wonder if the same thing is happening inside of the PCM and starting to cause tiny shorts.
Tiny shorts are only desirable on hot girls. Not on guys, and especially not on trucks.
we used to have a fleet of 2004 4400 Internationals with the DT466E. They look nothing like what you have there. We would run into an issue with the engine having a long crank/no start due to a bad o ring where the oil rail meets the head under the valve cover. This would create a hard start, and if bad enough, a no start situation. Diag would be to disconnect the oil feed hose from the HPOP to the head, run a 150 psi to the fitting and watch drop off on the gauge as well as the ICP pid on the scan tool. if pressure fell off the cliff on the gauge, and the pid value was way off the supplied pressure, the o-ring shit the bed.
I agree, this is a bad design, with multiple redesigns all the way up to the maxxforce engines. I have seen the screens on the IPR shattered, ICP failures, we even had an issue with the ecm being filled with oil, only guess is it traveled up the wiring as the outside of the ecm way dry. sorry see this one was a bust. Keep up the great content.
$$$$33³3
Your right I didn't read your comment before I put the something lol icp ipr and o rings for the high pressure rail
Can't believe someone brought you a plow truck when it's not the busiest part of their season and they dont need it back in 12 hours
Spring and summer, they use a plow to loosen all the gravel shoulders and shove them back onto the lawns.
Generally we wait until it's snowing to do this stuff lol.
Heui systems always do the weirdest stuff when old. Had a 6.0 power stroke once that had a complaint of oil gets too hot low power etc, but if an oil change is done that problem goes away and then slowly comes back. After a lot of head scratching and using a little parts swapping turns out the hpop was internally leaking, bypassing the oil cooler. But when you changed the oil the new additives sealed that leak for a little while. Most infuriating thing to figure out lol.
I respect your knowledge of how this stuff should work and you do not give up easily.
We had a 2/12 ton truck in Viet Nam that was hard to start because it had no starter. We pushed it with a 5 ton dump. Yes it did run all day, or we were walking back. The Vietnamese got the new stuff, we got WWII 3/4 tons, and WWII C rations. We should have purchased a starter on the black market for 2 cartons of cigarettes. It would have been delivered in one day.
Welcome Home, and Thank you for your service. My late father served in aviation twice there and one tour in Thailand, his last rotation with A/1/9 Cav. He passed away in 2004, so I kinda look at all Nam vets as Dad.
Wes would have built a starter out of a walkie talkie 😅😂
The best place for that truck is a ship to china for scrap, the highways maintenance contractor had nothing but issues with their single axle International plow trucks this was a good 8 years ago maybe closer to 10. Intercraptional trucks were replaced with KW and Peterbilt single axles.
Wes, you must have the patience of Job, how on earth do you get to the bottom of these problems, I doff my cap to you my friend, you're an inspiration, trying to explain to a customer the amount of your time spent diagnosing, must be difficult.
"Rust Belt Shaman" would be a great name for a TH-cam channel.
HEUI was a CAT invention. Navistar USED to take power and grounds from the starter lugs. That caused a ton of issues, ask JB Hunt.
“Here’s the part that’s gonna bake your noodle”: this is my favorite Wesism of the video. 😂🤣😂👍❤️🔧
Wes, it seems to me you've been issued a permanent pass ticket to the struggle bus.
Front row seat with a 500 pound gorilla between you and whatever item you're trying to diagnose.
But we have faith in you Wes, we know the next episode in the Wes Struggle Bus our intrepid Wes will achieve success over the engine Gremlins and be victorious.
The celebrations shall be glorious ✨️ 🙌 😀
So Wes, you’re telling me an old workhorse can’t get started in the morning without some Cosby sauce, and once it gets rolling he’s a stud all day. I believe the official condition is called being a 48 year old man. Great diag as usual.
Hmm. Story checks out, but this rig is only 20.
@@WatchWesWork old enough
I would argue that one winter in Illinois is like 4-5 elsewhere so that means this 20 year old truck is more like 80+ years old based on salt corrosion. Just sayin’
Trouble is ECM faults have the same hysteresis as common electrical faults but we learn to usually trust the ecm data because of a lower failure rate. Nice work in trusting your diagnosis.
What you are dealing with in this one is very close to home for me. There are a lot of these 466e and 444 (powerstroke) local to me that I have spent a significant amount of time on. There are so many possibilities that its most likely multiple things, for example. Had a few Intertrashional 466 plow trucks that the engine harness would have salt and water intrusion in multiple spots in the wiring harness. Voltage from one inject might fire another or send cam signal to each injector simultaneously. Have seen the HPOP fail to supply the correct pressures from electrical (IPR) or mechanical (cracked heads, cracked injectors, or bad pump),
All of the electronic control diesels have their own piles of unmitigated garbage that come along with them, save for the smaller cummins. The really redeeming factor for them is they weigh 1800-2500lbs, so at least you get a few sandwiches worth when you crush the trucks.
That sounds like a nightmare. Good to know that this sort of thing can happen....
I don't know squat about electronic controlled diesels, but I know lots about salt corrosion living in Northern NYS. I was thinking it's corrosion down in all that wiring that's getting sprayed with salt water all winter long. I don't care how "waterproof" they make that ECM computer, I bet the inside is damp with salt water.
Dude....you hit that nail square on the head. No pond is deep enough!
9
sometimes ya just got to walk away .. and never look back ...lol great vid !!!🤔
I did not fall asleep.
I am simply amazed at your diagnostic skill set.
I have been out of the trade since 07,but I absolutely love your Video's.
Keep it up.
Wes - you are oh so close! The most likely problem is excessive resistance at the connector to the PCM ... you won't see the voltage drop when back-probing pins but there will be a voltage difference across the PCM connector which will be proportional to PCM current (in your case, probably from injector current). This will cause the PCM ground to be "lifted" with respect to chassis ground.
When you disconnected and reconnected the PCM (and added dialectric grease?) you probably "cleaned" the connector contacts to a degree. If the problem is still present, you may be able to remove one of the PCM ground wires (cut, etc) and monitor the voltage on the PCM side of that wire ... I'm sure you'll see the voltage drop mentioned. Alternatively, if you were to unhook (cut off) 3 of the 6 injectors, you should see the lifted ground voltage reduce (as measured by the "lifting" of your measured waveforms from what should be ground on your scope).
What I believe is happening is as current flows you're getting a voltage difference between PCM ground and chassis ground. Your back-probing proved the chassis grounds are ok, but your voltage waveforms indicate the PCM ground is "lifting" because of the darn voltage across the connectors - the degree of lifting should be proportional to PCM current. If the grounds are grouped together (they are probably not) you could run all of them through your current probe and you'll see a current waveform synchronous "lifted" waveforms you've observed. You could also probably measure the current on the supply side of the PCM.
BTW - I'm an electrical engineer who designs microcontrollers for PCMs, ECU's, and other controllers. Sometimes we see OEM's undersize their ground wires during design which cause similar (and interesting to diagnose) problems ... once you've been around the block a time or two - particularly with erratic sensor readings - you become aware of this issue.
Your keen intuition, experience, and creativity (including methodical diagnosis) is appreciated as are your efforts to entertain us with your work!
I've seen issues with starting these forever... numerous issues...high pressure pumps..warped oil rails..icp sensors or coils..cracked front structures..faulty fuel check valves,..corroded ecm and/or plugs..etc . In the fleet of 40 of these treasures I was blessed to work on for 8 years...I think only one had a bad ecm . Without a good diagnostic laptop it's hard to pinpoint...ours was ok but always needed updates ...it was in for repairs more than the trucks were lol . One thing comes to mind..you mentioned it starts when cold...if it has issues once warm.. I've seen faulty icp valves..or the orings on it bad . But one of the first areas of concern for me is the wiring plugs going to the ecm...those o rings are so thin they only have one side lol . I've seen water get in them and corrode many times..a thorough cleaning is often the solution .
No max....that was the problem
This is what happens when the head mechanic takes a vacation and the apprentices run the shop....new ecm on everything 😅
You got to get the main guy back
I dont think you will ever see an international engineer...they all fled the country after the 6.4 powerstroke hit the dealer lots
Wes one thing that you have to remember, the design engineers don't work on the equipment that they design. They are only interested in the power lines going where they think it should be going. You are striking for Sainthood but the customer isn't going to understand what you have to do to trouble shoot a problem.
but the ecm is right in the open on the test stand lol
That's a terrible practice that a lot of automobile companies have. The engineers never have to work on their products. I think the engineers should have to spend a week per year in a repair shop before they actually get to design new products.
@@henryD9363 A fortnight every 3 months. I've worked somewhere that had that rule (not for design engineers, but for the bosses). Drag someone on $200k+ out of their comfy office and tell them to stack empty pallets in the rain in the middle of winter and suddenly we all got new wet weather gear. Or hand unload trucks in 40°C -- suddenly there's plenty of cold drinks being delivered on a regular basis.
We fixed our DT466E..... we sold it.
A permanent repair, you can be proud of.
Hit that ecm with a hair dryer when it’s cold and see if it fires up before you call it. I’d also check the alternator and make sure your not getting any alternating current out of it messing with the ecm.
Dont build stuff with them fancy-pants electronics.....Could be the lesson here.
I know someone who used to work at the International dealership just a few miles East of you. He always liked the DT466, but didn't like anything else about International trucks. He quit to maintain his sanity.
Thank you Wes! Best mechanic content on TH-cam!
Enjoyed the video Wes. I don’t have too much experience on the older 466e models. But from what I have seen on all older internationals, is the ecm power and ground weather pack connectors are notorious for having high resistance due to spread terminals. This will cause a hard start issue and ecm power down issue. There should be 3 weatherpack connections, one at the battery box, one by the starter, and one by the firewall (driver side). I know you checked the powers and grounds at the ecm with a test light. But to verify whether these ecm powers and grounds are the problem, what I would do is, before starting the truck, after a 48hr cold soak. Back probe the ecm connector at the powers and grounds like you had them. And see if you have sufficient enough voltage and a good ground with the key on and while cranking. You can even supply your own power and ground while cranking to see if this is your issue. Also do you think that you have a parasitic draw on your batteries that could be causing a ecm power down the longer it sits?
I think you are not paid enough for this sh*t
Well done figuring it out, impressive.
Wes , you are an amazing troubleshooter. This design seems over complicated. I assume that you get a lot of work that other folks couldn’t figure out. That’s a good reputation to have. Thanks for sharing
He didn’t fix anything. He “thinks” it “might” be the ECM. Exactly what did he troubleshoot?
That type of work doesn't produce good profit. And profit keeps the doors open. At some point it begins to eat your lunch.
@@vg3430 He's a helluva lot more capable than 98% of diy mechanics who, like myself, don't know the first thing about reading electrical signals and scopes. This result is a lot closer to the solution than most can do. Also he posts interesting stuff to youtube, not the stuff that makes the most money. Nobody wants to see a Camry's brake pads being replaced. He doesn't always win against the machines either. It's a bit of an accomplishment to be as capable as he is on so many different makes an models.
@@vg3430 it might be the ECM aka it's probably ECM unless it has a short in the loom... All this breaks down to someone who's smart enough to understand you never guarantee a diagnosis if you can't test your solution and he knows he can't test the solution without a different ECM
Pinch/close off return. Measure flow first. Could be pump bypass.
Oh thank goodness for that, i couldn't find anything to watch and was about to go sleep...thanks for the video Wes!!
The fuel system is draining itself over a few days more than likely. Common problem on the old 7.3's in the Fords. Updated lines and fittings available from several suppliers solves the backflow issue. Quickstart just gets everything running fast enough todUck fuel.
Cheap solution: thin tube from intake to the cabin connected to a ether can.
hot crimp a can cap (with nozzle) to the tube, makes a solid connection and it's easy to change cans when you run out
Your perseverance is 2nd to none , ya magnificent trouble-shootin bastard !
Have a great weekend my friend. 👍 🍺
And there was me, thinking that an ageing diesel truck would be immune from that God awful computer control...
They've been computer controlled since the mid 90s.
"This is the stupidest design anyone could ever come up with"
International: *hold my beer*
As an International mechanic, we just cheat and have a cabinet full of test ECM's and sensors that we swap around.
Heh. Sounds like the Ford method. Every step in the troubleshooting tree is "substitute known good"...
@@WatchWesWork isnt that always a good troubleshooting method/mantra though for most situations?
@@spenmac yeah great unless your the one buying said known good parts that you may or may not even need
@@WatchWesWork That would land us all into the realm of 'throwing parts' at a problem, but it can be a good way to go as long as you don't blow up your test parts.
The ultimate is a spare identical vehicle to temporarily host suspected bad parts, for the purposes of testing!
There is no shame in it if you have the parts on your shelf, and it will save some time and trouble. Unfortunately with the new junk, you'll need the dealer to do a reflash if you replace a marker light bulb...
Your patience amazes me, of course I wouldn't be in business very long when I "sadly" report to the customer, I'm sorry there's been a fire and your rig burned to the ground. That would be more believable than someone stole this rig wouldn't it?
The International engineer in 2002 must have been a german and went to work for BMW in 2012. The ECM for the 2012 BMW X5 suv is attached to the underside of the plastic intake manifold with M6 bolts on top and E8 screws underneath. Removal of the ECM requires the removal of the airbox, turbo charge pipe, throttle body and intake manifold. The ECM has 6 connectors on it, 2 of which can be attached incorrectly. Getting the connectors reversed will fry the ECM. New ECM is 3 grand.
They must have also assigned the same engineer to design the whole powertrain. The suv is AWD and the studio wouldn't raise the hoodline or lengthen the wheelbase, so there isn't room under the engine or behind the engine for the front transaxle. Solution: run the axle THROUGH the oil pan. Replacing the oil pan gasket requires removal of engine cradle, removal of lower control arms, removal of both axles, and lowering the front transaxle. Book time is 16 hours = $3200 at the dealer. For a $30 gasket. Oh, and the oil pan bolts are aluminum E8 single use bolts. Good times. effing germans.
Sounds like there’s an awful lot of people giving advice albeit well intentioned, in the comments, not sure how helpful that is for you Wes after you’ve worked on the truck.
How can you find time to run a business, have a well adjusted family (with dog) produce videos, edit them and then read the comments? Hats off mate!
I’m sad enough to procrastinate over all the things I’m supposed to be doing to watch your videos almost as soon as they are posted!
I look forward to your productions and can even understand the technical side (well, sort of…) but marvel at your tenacity although your exasperation at times is palpable! 🇦🇺
Remember the good ol' days when it was all mechanical? If it didn't work, it was easy to figure out.....
That is definitely the ECM module. The problem with replacing them is that they have to have the correct program installed. And yes you are correct. The dealer has to do that. And yepper ... about 2 grand.
Wes - Two things.
1: It _USED_ to work when there was an external battery charger connected
2: The 'spikes' are being seen on a large number of sensors
IMO, that's almost SHOUTING at me that there's too much electrical resistance in a ground circuit somewhere. (Especially point #2 above)
When ANY injector 'fires', it is 'lifting' the ground voltage to everything (INCLUDING the ECU itself)
To test my hypothesis:
Grab any semi decent old car battery with some long-ish leads (possibly 2 of them in series if the injectors require 24V)
Connect the negative directly to the ECU ground leads (since the injectors are 'cold side' switched through the ECU)
Cut the existing positive feeds to the injectors and connect them to the car battery positive
You're now 'feeding' the injectors from a totally independent power source - the truck should run just fine.
Now disconnect the external battery negative from the ECU and connect it instead to the actual truck battery negative right at the truck battery itself.
If it fails now, then you definitely have too much resistance in your truck battery ground/negative circuit (which is what I suspect since so many sensors are affected)
The other test would be to cut the injector feeds and directly connect them to the truck battery positive to check for resistance in the positive circuit, but I seriously doubt this is the problem.
Well yes, it does scream ground fault, exept that it can carry hundreds of amps to crank the damn thing, also i belive towards the end of the video, wes says the ecm is directly grounded to the battery negative, and tested all ecm grounds with plenty of current. All i can see that he didnt (couldnt) test is if the high resistance was inside the ecm connector
Thinking about it for a while now, the only reasonable cause i see, is that the power supply of the 5v reference, and the IDM use the same ground, and every time the injector fires it elevates the common ground level, and in response the 5v supply gets elevated compared to the rest of the ground plane. Most probably a crusty connector, or water damage inside the ECU itself. As to why it runs sometimes, and why it doesent, its probably down to some magix compensation from the confuser
I bet the sensor reference ground in the ECU is smoked. Diode protected, somebody once hooked a battery charger up backwards, voila.
could be International and Ford's with the powerstrokes are known to have almost a bare minimum Electrical System and if the Medium duty trucks are anything like this Turd in the video.... likely grounds the whole engine and transmission through the Rear axel....... maybe if he Threw on a fat grounding cable it would work. or ground strap...... from the frame to the motor.
@@hordboy that or..... got a cheap ICP sensor with VREF and Data switched..... my 6.0l had that happen after i replaced the whole truck wiring harness... truck fired right up after the new ICP sensor....... couple weeks went by cranks started getting longer and longer and longer. then wouldn't start at all...
Dug into it 4 hours of work....... cheap sensors are backwards somehow they WORK to begin with....... the 2 bottem pins are often switched from the plug on the truck i switched these around. Truck started right up havent had an issue since.... cheap amazon sensor i got for like 30 dollars...
If I had to bet, I put my money on old leaking filter capacitors in there that are also probably shorted. Being that it runs and drives it can't be anything in the processing circuitry or it wouldn't work at all.
If I remember correctly those operate on a high voltage, so I bet either some corrosion got inside the box and is bridging something somewhere or some filter Caps are either leaking electrically or have leaked their electrolyte onto the board and are causing shorts....
That's my final answer 😁
Sounds right to me!
@BreatheScotland That's a good point! I completely forgot that's how they were getting it to start for a while and yeah that would make sense!
Don't get me started on #$^@ capacitors. I replaced some CapXon pigs a few years ago on a PSU in an old Philips monitor I still use daily and it's just this week started acting up as if the new ones are now dying.
Yep. Truck's had about 20 years with Illinois temperature swings.
I wonder if they're Illinois Capacitors 😄
I spent the better part of the last week troubleshooting a low rail pressure and high rail pressure code on a cat C6.6 in a D6N. It was a huge pain in the ass to figure out. It would run fine at low load but when you pushed a full blade of dirt the rail pressure would be about 2000psi lower than desired and it would code. Then the rail pressure would get "stuck" about 5000psi higher than desired and set a hi pressure code. Got all the way through the cat troubleshooting guide with no fix. Finally tried a new injection pump and it runs better than new.
@@mmm365 well 9000 hours and poor maintenance history may have played a part in it
@@mmm365 on a small machine like a d6n it's a fair bit. More than half way through its life
The real crazy thing is what changes after ~48 hours that hasn't changed already in ~24 hours? Could it be a very slow capacitor drain in the ECU? Because any pressure related systems surely would have leaked down or de-pressurized within the first 24.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Bad cap on the circuit board.
somethings on the circuit board causing that.. gentry and sons just found a guy who can reprogram these computer chips.. he has advanced motherboard machines
I just came down in the comments looking to see where I could throw my hat in for the 'bad cap' theory. Those spikes look to be a signal that maybe should otherwise be smoothed out by a capacitor. Besides that, maybe one has just puked its guts out and also playing havoc with actual traces on the board, shorting things out and making spurious signals internally. I wish it was being replaced though, I'd love to see the actual innards of it.
Would a bad cap get better by getting hot, though? -there's also the long delay before it acts up again. It's not going to get any colder sitting more than 6 hours or so. Only thing I can think of is leaky semiconductors in the driver circuits... that has similar symptoms in automation, where, e.g., machines act up the first couple hours after having been off for the weekend. Seen that a couple of times and each time it was the interface circuitry between the 5V logic and the actual machinery.
We just sent one of the ECUs on a big truck into Cardone to rebuild it. Not because we wanted to but couldn't find anyone else who would touch it.
I was willing to bet that those voltage spikes were EMF induced from the injectors firing. Im not sure if those harnesses are shielded or not, but I’ve seen the same thing happen when the shielding gets broken or damaged and looses its ground connection.
It can also happen inside the ecm if there’s a faulty capacitor on 5v regulator circuit on the board, the injector driver circuitry draws a lot of current when the injectors fire and if there isn’t sufficient smoothing capacitance in the regulator circuit it will sense that voltage drop on the power input side to the ecm and try to compensate by increasing the output until it senses that’s too high causing it to loop cyclically.
“The stupidest design anyone could come up with” yup… sounds like everything International/Navistar 😆
I have a feeling that parts of the design are handed off to the experienced engineers, and parts are given to the interns, at least I hope it's that way...
I think you are on to something white capacitators, If they are bad they often come back white some heat. ill bet if you take your whifes hairdryer and heat up the ecm it starts.....
My first thought was it being a voltage regulator issue. Could be a flaky mosfet or cap in the circuit. If it were me, I'd have split the ECU open to take a look. Then again I'm not running a shop...
@@foxyloon I agree. I work for a heavy equipment corporate dealership and anytime I find a bad controller I always crack it open to see what failed. Many many times it’s either the TVS protection diodes, or a ground path diode (I’m guessing for reverse polarity protection?). It amazes me that we have to charge the customer $3-5k for a new controller when a $0.10 diode and ten minutes of soldering would fix it 😬
That was amazing!! Very interesting and you do a fantastic job explaining everything. Can’t wait for the next ones!!
My auto repair shop has raised its rate to $145 an hour, the Porsche shop charges $200 an hour, my tattoo shop has just raised rates to $200 an hour after remaining at $150 for 15 years. You better not be paying yourself anything other than a living wage; that would be crazy, particularly as prices go through the roof. If you were a beginning tech I can imagine $25 an hour, but really Wes your knowledge is close to encyclopedic. People are reluctant to talk about how much they make, but figuring this stuff out takes experience. Did you see how many hours Mr O South Main Auto just spent diagnosing that 1980s truck (O2 sensor PCM?)? 🤣🤣🤣 I would have just junked that truck. Best Regards
Wash your mouth out. You can't junk a classic like that S10! It'll still be going after all these modern poser trucks have been turned into cans.
Find a bad diagnostic mechanic and see how fast your bill runs up😂. Local shop charged a customer $1650 for a plow truck that would not start, and “was no farther along”. They told the customer pay them more or come pick up the truck🤪
It's Eric O
@@mph5896
Yup, I paid about the same amount when I asked my mechanic to figure out where all the water was coming from in my ‘05 Mustang that had ruined my PCM, and made my gauges inoperable. New PCM and of course he had no way of flashing it. Mechanical issues are fine, electrical issues…ugh.
@@mejesse809
Yup Eric O, I must have referred to him as Mr O because he’s always saying Mrs O. Who eats lunches like he does and goes back to work. I’d be in a food coma.
Wes, I am a 70 year old applied mathematician who has worked in defence contexts (not in US). I have worked with PhD electrical engineers on various issues (mainly submarines ) and I like the cut of your intellectual jib. At the outset I thought to myself given the obscure algorithms in the ECM (now to be fair I have actually written some incredibly obscure algorithms for which my emplpoyer holds the patents mind you) which are beyond my detailed knowledge for cars but I I did wonder whether it was a sampling issue going on here. Your analysis is not at all fanciful and I really liked the way you abstracted the problem, What people fail to understand about many computer systems is that they are in many cases actually doing sophistcated averaging, A derivative is a species of average: [ f(x+h)-f(x)]/h. I could go on but I won't. You will get me into Kalman filters etc. Suffice it to say that you and Eric O are up there in my scheme of things. Massive respect for your work. I'd let you loose on my car .
Ha ha nerd.. ( no offense intended ) . I always wanted to become a mechatronic engineer but ended up being a mechanic. Because i found out that I'm not very comfortable with maths .
A good way to start the day with the word we all like to hear, "crusty"
Actually, the words I like to hear are, “Howdy, folks”. 😁👍🔧🧰
I ran into this many times working at Ryder Truck Rental. Injectors needed replaced.Internals were worn out inside Injectors and would not start after a cold soak.Once fired on ether would start all day.
I would love to hear what they decide to do and if the problem was eventually solved. Nice video, thanks!
its a township truck, they wont spend the money to fix it, i bet they will buy a case of starting fluid and toss it in the cab LOL
Michael yep is Vernon township lolz
@@thehulkamaniabrother2.089 haha, you can substitute almost any township name in there and expect the same answer when it comes to spending money !! LOL
@@warrenmichael918 that's because the money is going into someone's pocket before it gets spent on a new truck...
@@thehulkamaniabrother2.089 Oh, so the States is the same as the UK then? 🥴🥴🤣🤣
Nice troubleshooting video. That is a weird design but I hesitate to criticize the designers since we can’t know what their restrictions were. Being a design engineer for over 50 years I know that the design approach is seldom dictated by the engineer. You do what you can to make it work. I’m guessing that whoever decided to go that way was neither engineer or maintainability expert.
It was a bean counter.
@@stjohnschurchcolumbus jelly beans at that.
Wes- I really enjoy your diagnosing skills. I am also a mechanical engineer (retired) , I worked in the construction industry with large scale A/C & Heating systems so I can relate to what you are doing and you are doing one hell of a job. I wish I was close enough to you to bring some of my junk to you.
On behalf of Wes, think nothing of it, really. Keep your junk away from him. :)
I am "sure" Wes would love to see your "little treasures". It is his missus you want to keep an eye on.
Wes is the only mechanic I know that has a LightHouse to test for 12 volts.
I think Eric O showed us that.
Ivan would click his headlamp off and say "we have an interesting case study here. "
I won't pretend to know anything about this engine/system, but I kept asking myself what difference is there between cranking and running (after starting with ether)? You mentioned RPM, and that may be the important one, but the one that springs to my mind is the large starter ground current. I'd try unbolting, cleaning, and reconnecting each ground connection in the starter ground circuit. I've seen tightly bolted high current connections that were almost completely insulated by corrosion.
Some connections can be temperature dependent, which might explain why this engine will restart easily if still warm. If you get it started when cold, can you shut it off and restart normally, or do you have to wait the 3-4 minutes, until you get throttle response, for it to restart? Ask the customer if this problem is worse in cold weather.
Yes, it sucked that you were not able to get into all the connections to the ECU. The problem certainly could be there. I couldn't quite visualize what the problem was, but making those connections impossible to troubleshoot is certainly FUBAR.
BTW, keep in mind that your cute little test light has about 1/10 the resistance when cold, so it can draw about 10x the current on pulses that are too short to warm it up.
Finally, I love the way you work your way thru a problem, by taking data and following it. You clearly understand what you're trying to do, even when you're faced with something that's not making sense.
The Flux capacitor is not getting the1.21 gegawatt and not up to 88 mile per hour
Great video despite no real resolution. Love this diagnostic stuff.
Don’t make fun of that truck. Ether addiction is no laughing matter and a hard thing to kick. Ask any small engine mechanic. 😂👍🔧🧰
OIL PUMP is worn out….
7.3 psd same same issue…. Run it warm then shut down hood open to cool off as soon as possible . When cooled off start it and run it till smooth then shut off ASAP .. see if it can start easier after 1 over night sit . If it starts easier (w/o ) ether. This will tell you it’s oil pump on front of crank…
Cam and crank sensors should been replaced already to eliminate common electrical sensor . Wrong cam sensor or bad … cam and or crank sensor.
Should auction off your paperwork is Wes doodles.... 😁
Wow, nightmare…at the dealer I’m sure they would have brought out the “parts cannon” and replaced everything under the hood!
In the area of your concern (fuel sensor, valve; injectors) I would do an ohms check between all wires (after unplugging all connectors). As was mentioned, possible salt incursion might be making a low-ohms path between circuits that are supposed to be isolated.
Also, check ohms of each of those connectors (point-to-point), including grounds. I bet you'll find either low ohms where there shouldn't be, or high ohms where there should be zero ohms.
Also do voltage drop test (using scope) for ground and power at the ECM while cranking.
Some of the above has been suggested by others here in the comments.
Probably fuel system getting air bound . The code was sent because you were picking around with your high tech gadgets ....
Looks like they improved the 466 to death.
Amazing how Navistar took the virtually bulletproof dt466 and redesigned it into a pile of junk. I guess they were practicing for the future when they took the cat 3406 and aborted it. I have drove a lot of ih trucks and honestly wondered how they stay in business.
Government contracts.
Your electrical diagnostic ability still blows my mind! Been watching you for years and definitely have learned a lot. Gave me the confidence to tackle a head gasket job on a 07 Ram 1500 with the poo-tastic 4.7L.
Thanks for sharing your infinite wisdom!
4.7 is way better then 5.7 hemi
@@drivingmylifeaway7149 lol! Words I've never heard anyone say...
4.7 is a great motor, you just can't do routine maintenance.
@@lmCIoudz not my rig smarty pants.🤣
"Your", not "you are"
You have *WAAAY* more patience than all of us! I would have been pulling out my hair in clumps Wes. Hats off to you for trying your best to figure it out. That truck needs parted out! LOL 😂 Take care my friend 🙂👍
Enjoyed your video like your use of the pico scope impressive I have one but haven't realized it's value yet do to none use at the end of video you showed it started after 24 hours and said the oil pressure guage worked could that be the problem low or no primary eng oil pressure losing prime while sitting long periods of time just a guess anyway great video ty
Whether you fixed it or not, I love the way you walk us through your incredible thinking!!!
I have a 1997 international 4900 dt466 same problem except mine cranks for 30s or so every cold start and always starts. Then starts great the rest of the day but like you say has poor power in the beginning. I always thought it was fuel draining back to the tank but I bet your on to something there. I’d love to know how it turns out. Thanks
After watching your work on the International makes me feel nostalgic for the old Roosa Master injection pumps. I give you credit, when it comes to diagnosis you are like a cross dog with a bone. Never give up never give in.
I can tell you we had a newer model that would not start. We changed the oil and it would start right up. The oil was getting thinned with fuel and it would not build pressure. Ended up pulling the injectors replacing the o-rings and the pucks that seal the injectors to the rail. Found a bad o-ring letting fuel into oil. You can put a pressure gauge on to check the fuel pressure and high pressure oil. Be interesting to see if an oil change makes it any better or not. Yes the wiring sucks on these things.
that's interesting and good to know
Ding Ding Ding ?
That could also be the answer why it fires up perfect when cold
In my opinion if it starts Well when cold and doesnt when warm you can forget about the electronics
@@bertjetolberg103
But the truck didnt start when cold if left for 48hrs........
Really enjoy your diagnostic explanations and the graphics you draw.
One day I hope being a hoarder pays off. I seem to throw out things I need later and keep things that end up being of no use or value to anyone.
Nobody can say you don't try hard. What an awesome job you do.
Had same issue.
More likely it's 1-- injector oring bad or injector self internal leak..
The fuel delivery is a function of injector pulsewidth and oil pressure. The injector is a 7:1 intensifier pump, so at 3000psi oil pressure you reach 21000psi injection pressure. From what I've seen on my 7.3 the computer tries to keep the injectors at 2-4ms and increases oil pressure to get additional fuel mass flow as RPM and boost rises.
Very nice data from the Pico very interesting its like the ground is being lost but dosent fix the issue 🤔 are the Injectors Failing @Watch Wes Work