So, according to some people in the comments YT itself doesn't mess with the frame rate but can someone confirm this is 100% fact? 🤔 And sorry about the audio! Still a lot of work to do in my new studio 😵💫💥
You can test TH-cam playback frame-rate by setting your video camera to record the display, set FPS and shutter to match your content as noted in stats for nerds. Place the recorded clip of the display on your timeline, and advance one frame at a time and look for any inconsistencies. This is also a good way to test your TV's motion and film mode settings to see how it butchers frame-rate consistency.
It's actually going to look more "Broadcast" or "Sports" style if you do 30 FPS. I only shoot in 24/60/120/180/240 fps etc - and edit in a 24 timeline. I see no jitters on TH-cam uploads for corporate work (And I shoot for J&J and a lot of higher end clients now with the studio I'm at). It just gives it a different look, but the jitter is because your shutter is not set properly for the look you want.
@@cinestyleinc May be getting into what terminology is being used to describe visual issues. I think he is describing cadence as it is being rendered by the display devices watching his content?
TH-cam absolutely does not transcode to a different framerate; you can verify this yourself if you download the video using something like youtube-dl and check the downloaded file. What you're seeing are framerate cadence issues that occur on TVs that only have a 60Hz refresh rate. Anyone over the age of 40 has gotten used to 2/3/2/3 cadence issues because that's what TVs were locked to up until about 10 years ago, but for anyone under the age of 40, I can see how it might be bothersome. My advice: Don't edit for what you think your viewer is watching on; edit for yourself, your vision, your content. In the future, all TVs will be 240Hz or higher and it won't be an issues, so edit for the future, not right now :-)
@@JimLeonard but TH-cam as a player will only output at 60hz, the content maybe 24fps but TH-cam won't display it as such, unless there is a way to change TH-cam's fps output that I am not aware of ?.
I'm an engineer by occupation, an audiophile and videophile by avocation. What follows primarily addresses the technical side of this discussion. The issues and impacts are complex. Here's a very simplified synopsis: The "jitter" you've seen is very real. The degree to which it is a problem varies from individual to individual. If a video is shot at 24 frames per second (fps), edited at 24 fps and displayed at 24 fps, movement is as "smooth" as a 24 fps capture will allow. The exact same thing is true for 25, 30 and 60 fps respectively. When frames are displayed at other than an integer multiple of the cadence (frame to frame timing) that one's video camera captured, jitter is present. Period. It might not be irritating, you might not even be able to spot it. But it IS there. (Some degree of judder is also present but that's a different conversation.) Frames per second are frequently changed - usually related to cost. In the U.S., by far, the most common frame rate alteration is "3:2 pulldown." Each two frames of a 24 fps video are converted into five. Two duplicates of each odd numbered frame are created and one duplicate of each even numbered frame is created. Skipping directly to the effect, with 3:2 pulldown, a display effectively shows the first frame for 1/20th of a second, the second frame for 1/30 of a second - averaging - 1/24 of a second per frame. The TV then rinses and repeats, Every odd numbered image is displayed for a longer period of time than it should have been, every even numbered image is display for a shorter period of time than it should have been. Frame to timing is also impacted. Fast moving objects "jitter." Rapidly brightening or dimming objects "jitter." I personally do not like corrupted cadence "jitter." Jitter isn't present if neither the source provider nor one's TV mess with cadence. Jitter isn't present if the source material was recorded at 30, 60 or 120 fps. Many love "the cinematic look" so much that they will gladly put up with jitter. I'm not among their ranks. I'm tired. I'm finished. I hope you didn't find this to be a word salad.
Ok tell me one thing. I shoot with my Sony 7R V in 25 FPS, and when I do Pan movement for ex in the streets, Everthing is so jittery so this shitty judder thing is preset. Now... They say the Movies are also created in 25 or 24 FPS but I cannot see any jitter in Hollywood movies. How can it be? When I shoot 30 FPS or more, it is much more better and smoother. when I shoot in 24, it is rubbish....
@@leventeszabo3091 That your camera footage jitters when movie footage does not is perplexing. Can you find out what the native frame rate of your TV is? Do you know what shutter angle your camera shoots at?
Movies are projected in 24 (48) fps. Most monitors and phone screens are 60hz. That's why it looks like that. Also, when panning, even for movies, there's a "speed limit" to avoid jitteryjudder mess.
@@leventeszabo3091 I believe Joris nailed the reason for the apparent disparity. Your pans have exceeded the 24 fps "speed limit" and the movie pans have not.
I just took some test shots of my own custom built studio, sent it thru email to another channel in Malaysia and when I downloaded the video on my email, yes... it was jittery and laggy. Compression anywhere it goes to.
Interesting for me I like 30 because it goes well with 60-120 found mixing 25 and 60 -120 and there were issues. Excited to see what you find though. You image is so clear now. I found before you a little over contrast but now I want a little bit more and the more saturated blue back! Just a thought. We are all always changing and trying new stuff so always like giving a little feed back. Hope you are well and congrats on your new space and continued growth. See you around bud!
Joris Hermans: OUI Tu as raison!! 30fps is much smoother especially for NTSC here in Canada. Even better, I shoot EVERYTHING in 60fps and then EDIT in a 60fps Timeline. People it’s 2022 so do we really need to be shooting and editing at only 24fps because that’s what they had available in the 1930´s and 40 ‘s with their old metallic mechanical shutters? Many TH-camrs insist on this traditional way of doing things. We now have the technology to do much better. 24fps has too much choppiness and motion-blur as there are too few frames for the processor to write to. Especially when panning or scenes with lots of motion you know what I’m talking about! I have done many side by side tests with this and that is why I shoot at 60fps and EDIT at 60fps that way your audio is still in sync (everything is real-time not slo-mo) but you have more frames to capture crisp, clear, sharp detail and movement in the scene and especially when you pan!! You still get some nice motion blur. A little motion-blur is natural but fuzzy pixels and stuttering jittery motion when panning at 24p drives me crazy. It’s terrible at accurately depicting motion! Yes your files at 60p are larger, doesn’t bother me…I usually try to stick with the 180 degree rule for shutter so 1-125. I will try using it at 1-60 sec shutter as Gerald Undone suggests to minimized the ‘soap opera effect’ and add more natural motion-blur with the slower shutter.. SHOOTING AT 60P is so immersive and life-like (Edit in 60 p though unless you want slo-mo) Just try it ! J’ai finis mon discours Joris! 😜
You are right, you should shoot and edit with the knowledge of how the result will be viewed. If it will be viewed in a cinema theater where they have an actual 24 fps projector you should shoot and work in 24 fps… But as you correctly point out phones, tablets, laptops and other flatscreens, with the exception of very high end screens, are 30/60hz and therefore requires pulldown and will show 24 fps footage in 30 fps - with any fast subject or camera movements getting stutter. Worst case scenario is shooting in 30 fps, timeline it in 24 “to make it cinematic” and then uploading it to TH-cam, preferably with 360 degree drone panning… remove 6 frames every second to make 30 into 24 and then put the missing 6 frames back with pull down… This said, stutter is actually very “cinematic”, as 24 is too slow to make any fast objects or panning smooth and you see it in most films even if they use dolly moves rather than panning to avoid this. But is stutter the “cinematic” we want? When all screens can show 120 fps natively we will have the choice between 24 and 30 but today 30 fps gives by far the smoothest result.
100% agree Fred! Solid explanation thank you! Take a look at my comment I left. Not this reply. My comment on the actual video. I probably did a bad job explaining it but I've had people argue that what we're watching on tv is 30fps when it's 24 with the pull down method. Even though it's pulled down and holds some frames we're still only seeing 24 new frames of motion in one second. Therefore watching a movie that was in theaters being broadcasted today on something like FX, it's still actually being watched as 24fps to our eyes. Even though it's technically now 30. There's only 24 new frames of motion per second.
You could maybe try doing everything on a 60p timeline, or at least export at 60p. I often have to take in and edit and intercut footage that was shot at 24, 30, 60i, 60p, and 120p and I find that having a common denominator of a 60p timeline makes everything go so much smoother and allows you to have a lot more control over the frame interpolation so that when it does get uploaded to TH-cam, the worst that will happen is they drop every other frame down to 30fps. If it looks reasonably good at 60p, it won't have as much issue at 30. Just my two cents.
I've noticed that if you're trying to sync music to cuts, 24 just doesn't give you enough accuracy. You end off not being able to cut right where you want. Also if you do pans in say broll you will very easily get stutter, especially for drone shots because the drone is typically not moving super slow. If you're actually making movie then live with the limitations, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense.
Bro... You blew my mind haha. I've always wondered wtf happened when I watch my export back. The music seems like its always just 1 frame off when I upload it. But in Premiere its fine
i would post a link to a 30fps clip and a 24 but if you look for comparisons on google you can see a difference in stuttering FOR SURE. for people saying 24 always looks better than 30 they have the same motion blur, the difference is a few extra frames. panning on 24 is choppier than 30 no doubt. if your camera doesn’t have stabilization 30 will look like a HUGE step up in quality. for youtubers the appeal is that we aren’t a movie, but we also aren’t 60fps. 30 is a great mix of looking realistic with motion blur without all the extra frames. 24 is just a few too little for most walking work. 24 fps also can’t be slowed down. 30 fps can be slowed by 80% to be a perfect 24 frame timeline and adds a nice dreamy look. also no flickering is huge for me
I was also thinking the same thing. I switched to 30 on my drone and it helped tons. I also was thinking the same thing. 24 doesn't seem to be doing me any favors on TH-cam.
@@Meteor79000 absolutely correct. I haven’t seen any of the big film TH-camrs explain this when they shout 24fps from the rooftops. There’s an asterisk: fps with refresh rate determines judder or no judder. It has nothing to do with TH-cam’s processing of the file. A juddering 24fps video on a 60Hz monitor, looks smooth on a 120Hz tv. Want your video to be viewed with no judder on the most displays? Use 30fps.
@@chrisharris_arizona One learns to deal with defects in the video and audio media that one consumes. For decades I watched 24 fps content on TVs that would only display at 60 fps. Jitter was there, I simplly blocked it out. Did I have any choice? About a decade back we replaced our living room TV with a TV that could display 120 fps. It was a if Merlin had come through and waved a magic wand. Movies in particular looked SO much better. ... Long story made short, I researched and discovered the source of the improvement. We will never buy another TV with a 60 hertz panel.
@@numbersix9477 I wonder going forward if there’s any use to anyone manufacturing 60Hz displays for anything (besides price…but they aren’t great with 24fps so they add cost to your eyes). I know there’s some phones that do 120Hz now. To be the most compatible with most frame rates (in the US), they need to be 120 or 240Hz. Let’s just get everyone to 120Hz already haha.
I shot 24 FPS the last 3+ years for my channel. I’m not even sure where I heard that this was the “standard“. But I decided to switch to 30 FPS in the beginning of this year, and I think this is where I will stay.
I've always been confused by why to shoot in 24fps, when it doesn't play natively on many displays without special settings to change the display refresh rate down. The jutters and stutters always bothered me as well so I stuck with 30.
I've learned more since the last time I commented. So long story kinda short, you ARE seeing things. Depending on how your camera works in different modes (PAL vs NTSC) it could be shooting 23.976 when you have 24 selected. This makes a difference if your project timeline is not exactly matched. On top of that, youtube re-encodes 23.976 to 24, which causes judders. On top of that the 180 shutter rule on most cameras for 24 turns out to not function for that reason MIXED WITH the fact that they tend to not have 1/48, and instead have 1/50. My point is, I know you shot 30 with a 1/50 for a month and decided to go back to 24, BUT, I propose two new trials for you. Shoot 30 with a 1/33.3 shutter (for no flicker but more motion blur to compensate having extra frames. If you can't set that shutter speed, the equivalent in angle is 324 degrees.) and outside of that, shoot 25 (which on most cameras is integer 25 aka actual/real 25) with a slower 1/40 shutter speed for just a touch of extra smoothness. And of course no judder due to timeline mismatch and YT re-encoding bullcrap. Alternatively, if you wanna stick to the 180 guideline, 25-1/50 works just fine, though if you ever travel to NTSC land, you'll need to change the shutter to 1/30, 1/40, or 1/60 in order to not have artificial light flicker. ((Really my point is if you can't reconcile the extra frames with 30, 25p 1/40 is the best one size fits all setup.)) Let us know what happens in testing! And may your footage be blessed to look great, regardless! After all, composition and lighting are more important that frame rate. (especially when you don't include shutter speed in frame rate and set it to human natural perception with is 1/40-1/50 for lower FPS, and 360-degrees shutter angle for above 40fps.)
I only shoot Fuji, so 180 is easy (which brands don't have 180 shutter speeds?). The look is what's most important, right? I have to say 30/60 will always remind me of 90's soap opera's, especially Peter Jacksons 60 fps attemps. 24 still provides the most natural movement to my eye. Imo, we've become used to 30fps because youtube Channels are largely self taught, leading to this eco chamber. There's also not a lot of color graded action scenes. Of course, ymmv.
@@AmeriMutt76 I night shoot 23.976 1/48 HLG3 in the UK, I tried 50 1/100 but there was far too much grain in dark areas. I occasionally get a bit of banding at the bottom of the image when filming near a street light. my camera doesn't support 25fps in the 265 codec.
I made a video on this topic too ... we aren't making movies, we are making TH-cam videos. We should use the frame rate that works best for that format. Also I get a lot of clips from friends that shoot on smartphone and the are usually 30fps --- easier to share. Good show and good observations. Cheers.
You are on the right track. Those who are insistent on 24 fps are stuck in history. It is a fictitious number. Determined more by the length of 35 mm film than reality. Higher frame rates meant larger canisters. Expensive. You are pixel peeping if you can really see the difference between 25 and 30 fps. The average person can't see unless told to critically examine it. And Broadcast TV is 30 fps. I shoot 5k 50 fps because it is so much smoother. Most of us are not producing true cinematic film. Like Casablanca or Citizen Kane. Shooting most drone video would more likely be classified as documentary. Sticking to the 180 rule "may" give a better result. So 5K 50 fps at 1/100 sec. And for all TH-cams, you are not trying to produce true cinematic effect. This is a over argued issue for the purists amongst us.
DUDE this drove me absolutely crazy for the longest time. I've been shooting in 24fps ever since I started videography. Someone tried to tell me that American Tv was all 30fps and I didn't believe them at first. But once I did my research I found out that tvs are all 60hz and 24 doesn't go into it evenly and ends up skipping every 3rd frame. That sent me down a rabbit hole trying to figure out fps and refresh rates. It drove me crazy because smartphones and most laptops are still 60hz as well. Some are 120hz as is mine. 120 goes into 24 evenly so I never noticed jittering or skipping of frames. FOR 3 YEARS IVE BEEN DELIVERY VIDEOS BACK TO CLIENTS IN 24FPS. Their videos are playing like shat when they watch them on their 60hz screens😂 I have an iphone 13 that has variable refresh ad up to 120hz so I never knew what they were playing back like in 60hz. I think what bothers me most about 24fps is that I want so badly to keep using it because I know it looks cinematic and badass on my end but It's looking jittery on someone else's end. Another thing I try to point out to people is that, technically American tv is in 30fps yes but when we do a 3:2 pull down onto a 24fps movie to be broadcast on tv, it's still actually 24fps to our eyes. We're only seeing 24 new frame of movement. The pull down method adds freeze frames in between. It doesn't magically add 6 new frames with movement. Hopefully that makes sense. I figured this out by doing an experiment: Setup a camera on a tripod and film your tv screen and set your camera to 60fps to match the refresh rate of your tv. Every frame you see in the video will be showing a newly refreshed image on the screen. Find something you know for a fact is in 30fps (Just put on the local news or something) Get at least a 1 second video of that. Now open Netflix or any streaming service and put on a movie you know if 24fps. (Stranger Things is 24fps) get at least a 1 second clip of that. Toss them into your editor (I use Premiere) Create a 60fps fps sequence and import the clip you got of whatever was showing in 30fps on your tv (The news). Trim it so it's 1 second long. Then manually go through each frame and keep track every time there is a new frame with movement (NOT FREEZE FRAMES). For 30fps there should be a new frame with movement every other frame because it's 30fps on a 60fps timeline. When you reach the end of the clip you should of counted 30 new frame of movement in the 1 second clip. Now delete that clip and add in the 24fps clip you recorded (Stranger Things) onto your 60fps sequence. Trim it to 1 second and do the exact same thing. Go through frame by frame. Again counting each new frame with movement (NOT FREEZE FRAMES). You should be get a new frame with movement followed by 2 freeze frames. Then a new frame with movement followed by 1 freeze frame. Then this cycle continues. Essentially your getting 3 frame holds on screen then 2 frame holds on screen. This is where the name 3:2 pull down comes. When you get to the end of the clip you should have counted 24 new frames of movement. Even though it is it's being broadcasted and converted into 30fps with the 3:2 pull down, it's still being seen as 24fps to our eyes. This is why I didn't believe the guy when he told me everything you see on TV is in 30fps. Because it's not necessarily true. I used to binge watch movies on FX back when they actually were known for only playing movies. It was so obvious it was 24fps to my eye especially when watching it all day during the summer than switching to the local news which was 30fps. All in all, yes it 30fps but its kind of not at the same time if it's the 3:2 drop down. Don't ask me what method they use to convert British 25fps to 30 for American TV haha. But back to the topic on hand, TH-cam. As far as I know TH-cam does not perform the 3:2 pull down. I feel like if that were the case then it would look normal on any monitor regardless the refresh rate. Because then it's not going to skip any frames. If it DIDN"T do the 3:2 method and you watched your 24fps video on a 60hz monitor than you would get this effect. But i'm confused because I see exactly what you're talking about in your example video and my laptop is 120fps? Daphuq?
Can’t wait to see your results! Something that may be worth looking into is 30 fps with a 1/50 shutter speed instead of the 1/60. Though the 1/10 difference may produce an almost imperceptible difference 😂
I suggest everyone in this comments section go take a motion picture film class at a community college and learn about the origin of film, motion picture and the phenomena of "persitence of vision" as it pertains to 24fps as the ideal rate at which the human mind processes images. Monitors using motion smoothing or variable frame rates above 24 fps are giving you a degraded image, not a superior one. The reason we have 29.97 ntsc in the first place was because of broadcast technology develoepd for enocidng information via satelites. The uk has PAL because they opted for a different broadcast language. That tech was about transference easibility, not quality. TV manufactureres are adding variable frame rates to solve a oroblem that wasnt thereto get consumers to purvchase new models. I never thought Id see the day when video enthusiasts would be shunning a bedrock axiom of film and video production.
I was under the assumption that 29.97 and Pal 30fps was because early television tech used the electrical generation source in the country to time their images ... USA being almost 60hz and PAL countries using 50hz electrical sources. I don't think satellites were an issue when the first TV broadcasts were made ... there were no satellites. Am I wrong?
I suggest you do not involve everyone in the comments, everyone has diferent experiences don't generalize your answer. Don't be rude with people because politely you sent everyone to study. Mr perfect.
I got a question. im gona start shooting in 4k 30 fps. but I still will be using 1080 60 for for some slow motion stuff, will my footage be ok when I upload it
@@JorisHermans hey bro, thanks for responding! That means alot to me! I have watched a few of your videos, not sure how I found them, but keep up the good work! I enjoy yur style
In order to be in synch with european 50hz screens, you just have to pay attention to you shutterspeed in order to avoid flickering from lights or monitors. It has to be 50 or 100 and the framerate can them be anything you like and all should be fine. I think that 30 fps is the way to go for most things, because it’s the standard framerate for most video platforms. 50 or 60 can be interesting for slowmo. I only see interest for 24 fps if you want to shoot movies.
I use 24fps because of color changing lights. for some reason any time I shoot in 30fps, the lights flicker between colors, but 24fps seems to smooth that out. 🤷♂️
Wow, I have almost always been shooting 60p for the last 4-5 years and recently trying to shoot 24 fps on my Sony A7IV handheld. I just shot yesterday and all the footage actually looks pretty horrible. Lot's of jitters and wobbles like you stated in the beginning and I even had active stabilizing turned on, but it almost looks like there was 0 stabilization.. It is so bad I do not even know how to save the video. I even checked my camera 4 times today to see if I had something set up wrong. It almost looks like I had my shutter at 1/20th or something but it was all shot at 1/50th. What in the heck could have gone wrong?
@@CristinaFilms The color on the wall makes all the difference! I painted them with Granite Peak SW6250 from Sherwin Williams. If you google it you'll get the exact color.
24fps is just what viewers have become use to since the invention of sound in film, some ninety years ago... 24fps was the least amount af frames and still get smooth, quality sound... We have become use to the motion- blur that it gives us... For me, I shoot everything at 30fps-1/60 shutter, I've found it looks better, (smoother), than at 24... Thx, Moses...
Its not just because we're used to it. Movies look awful in anything over 24fps. I saw The Hobbit in theaters when it played in 48fps and it looked like a cheap daytime soap opera. When boulders fell I could clearly see they were nothing more than giant pieces of foam. Every special effect, set piece, makeup and prosthetic was so obviously fake It completely disrupted the suspension of disbelief.
@@deluego3603 48 fps from my understanding, is what is called "double framed" the same exact frame is repeated twice, for hyper clarity/sharpness, so it's a super clear 24 fps... I don't really like it also, that's different than say, 30/60fps ... Thx, Moses...
I shoot all my projects in either 30 or 60 frames per second. And not once have I ever had a client have an issue with any frame rate issue honestly what makes it better or rather more important factor in the quality of your video is your color bit depth so you can fix mixed lighting have more leeway to make it look good. Frame rate tends to be the lowest common denominator unless of course you’re shooting some thing that’s high motion. The only time I’ve ever shot at 24 frames per second was for another videographer who still thinks that 24 frames is the cats ass?! Go figure.
Question, if I shoot everything in 60fps even during ppl giving a speech will my video be good? And am I able to edit in a 24fps timeline or only in 60fps timeline?
I had to go from 30fps to 60fps for the exact jitters as you're talkin about in this video... Our cameras are always panning or moving at a higher pace because we're filming motorsports so that's likely the reason I feel 60+fps works best for us 👊😎
60FPS - is the best. People just overuse the term "cinematic look", do not really understand what it is... The thing is - USE ND FILTER and 180 degree rule for shutter speed. And it will be motion blur FOREEVER!!
I watch a lot of TH-cam and basically no movies. Anything less than 50 to me looks like a choppy mess, and I really don't understand why anyone would post in anything below 50 provided they have gear that handles it
24fps was the film industry standard for almost 100 years (1930). 4x3 30fps (29.97) NTSC was the USA broadcast TV standard (1953). 16:9 30fps 1080 HDTV is the current video standard (2006 Blu-Ray, 2014 broadcast networks), to be replaced by 4k after 2035. 24fps has it’s aesthetic appeal in a 30 world, as do 60, 90, 120 and 240, especially for motion and gaming, and plenty of filmmakers still maintain a death-grip on 24 or 23.976 even as standards change in both computer monitors and cinema video projection, which represent almost all of their distribution income stream. However, does it not just makes sense to future-proof our work from creation instead of live with judder-induced regret as refresh rates continue to rise in multiples of 30? We're not so concerned about the expense of capturing or projecting six more film frames per second anymore...
I always shoot in 24FPS but always thought they looked jittery so I switched to 30 FPS and they seem fine now. So sticking with 30 FPS for now it just seems much smoother.
Depends on what you shoot. I have no idea why anyone would want their, idk, car, bird, product, travel etc footage to be "cinematic". Most videos would be terrible if treated like the godfather.
Shoot in 30fps. It makes the most sense. I can't believe the number of people online who push 24fps as "cinematic" without any real technical background. Shown in theaters 24fps (film projectors show each frame twice making it 48) would look great. Computer monitor refresh is most often tied to AC (hence 60 in NTSC compatible and 50 in PAL compatible areas). While people tout the motion blur that's countered by the pull-down. Some computer monitors can be set to 24 (48) but your typical user isn't going to do that. The pull-down was "less bad" during the days when interlace was common since one could add extra fields rather than frames.So 24p could become 30fps (59.94 interlaced frames for TV) without being as obvioius. TH-cam and NTSC compatible TVs (even if HD and UHD) are tied to 30 so there's no pull-down. BTW this is why there's an aesthetic attraction to PAL rates as 25fps gives you close to the same motion (and blur) as 24 and yet doesn't need to be changed for PAL compatible computer monitors or TV settings. I think at one time there was a push for a "universal" frame rate during HDTV's development to get rid this 25 vs 30 vs 24 frame rate stuff. I've been working in video professionally since the 1980s in broadcast post-production so I've been dealing with this for decades. I think the push for 24 is overdone given modern technology.
I shoot mostly adventure videos with some action scenes. 25fps is the best for me. You can shoot all in 50fps and you can work on 25p timeline and have slomo if you want. And it looks way better than 24fps. No jitters at all.
There is a reason why most TH-camrs like Mr.Beast uses 30FPS you can also get the same cinematic experience if you always use the 180 degree rule. I switched awhile back and never went back. And there is a reason why some companies have to add 24fps as a firmware update later and give you 30-60fps when it’s first released.
You're not the first content creator who's suggested shooting in 30fps instead of 24fps. There's also the added benefit of being able to slow down the footage in 30fps. However you do lose light when shooting in low light situations. This is very all interesting. 🤔 I'll stay tuned to see how it works out for you. 👍🏾
24fps is good for movies or artistic videos, if done well (!), because it naturally elicits a dream like mood. Like we are watching a memory. Which complements that kind of content. People vlogging in 24fps because it’s “what the movies guys do for cinema” is stupid in my opinion. 30 fps strikes a nice balance between 24 and 60fps. Where 60fps looks hyper real and is good for sports or maybe even a wildlife focused show. I also agree the 3:2 pulldown happening makes 24fps objectively worse for this kind of content. Movies are shooting 24fps and the viewing experience is built around 24fps. Everything is done to complement 24fps.
Interesting... Now you're making me go back through my videos and see if I can see it in my content . Maybe I'm just used to it? I notice more when a video is 30p then 24p😅
I think it loks like 24p should look. Your really have to pan very slow when shooting in 24p to make it smooth. I know that RED has some info about pan speeds on their homepage. For me 30fps looks to much like television/broadcast. On some MacBook Pros you can force the refresh rate to 48hz.
@@JorisHermans hehe, but I understand what you mean and 24p can be choppy for sure. Especially when played on a monitor not supporting 24p playback. I still think its better than 30p but you have to me careful with panning to fast :)
I tried both 24fps and 30fps when I first started making videos….. and I completely preferred 30fps. The only time I ever used 24fps after that was when I needed to use a second camera for a client shoot and that second camera was limited to 4k 24fps. So I shot everything in 24fps to maintain consistency. 30fps any day.
@@PhotoStory. exactly......people claiming 24 is cinematic is a bit of a cliche......I know people who use 24 fps just because they heard it's cinematic from youtube videos.....without understanding what it even means
@@VictorEdemSetordjie i think it has a lot to do with intent. 24p communicates cinema almost instantly. Lighting composition and such contribute to cinema if it's filmed in 24frames. Otherwise, a well lit, well composed scene shot at 30p looks like a soap opera. Nothing wrong with it. But people look at it and say, "why does it look like that?" And they know nothing about cinema, they just know it looks different than what they are used to seeing. Did you intend for what you shot to have a soap opera look and feel?? Who knows? I know a ton of rookie cameramen who shoot 24p only because they were told to do so. They have no clue about how to use it intentionally, or what to communicate through that 24p framerate. With all that said, I can't wait for the results!
I'm not an expert but on Sony cameras, 30 FPS is reserved for NTSC and 24 or 25 FPS are reserved for PAL. I've seen someone shooting in 30 FPS in PAL region (Europe) and all the lights were flickering. So, seems like it won't be possible to use 30 FPS on a PAL region and get good results, and we in Europe are stuck with at least 25 FPS. Any thoughts?
You can shoot 30fps in Europe without any problems. You just need to set the shutter to 1/50th instead of 1/60th. That's what causes the flicker. Here's a handy tool to calculate flicker-free combinations: www.red.com/flicker-free-video And (24) 23.98 is for video with NTSC compatibility. 25/50 and 100 are PAL.
I might also move to 30fps, im not sure why suddenly premiere pro is being choppy when I try to add files to my 23.976 sequence in 4k with the correct 23.976 video in 4k shot with the sony zve10. I got a ton of videos right now that I shot the whole day and I cannot make it work as expected in premiere pro right now. When I try to export it, it is smooth. I don't know!
Hey Joris, what about using optical flow for some of the shots done in 24fps? I know that you mentioned the issue is not when editing , but with TH-cam conversion , but I’ve been experimenting with optical flow during editing when I perceive some potential for jittery and it seems smooth as butter when uploaded and seen on TH-cam
@@JorisHermans I know what you mean, same here. Optical flow is quite heavy. I usually render the clip only so that I can play 😅… but that is on Davinci Resolve.. not sure other NLEs
Yes 24 frames per second is really just a stubborn anachronistic holdout at this point. Well I have no idea if TH-cam does pulldowns even if it does pans are always going to be choppy if you’re too fast I mean that’s rule number one when shooting a lower frame rate is you have to do your pans very slowly, so if like you said you’re trying to shoot anyway you want panning as fast as you want at any given time then yeah dude guess what the you’re hitting the limitations of 24 fps thus requiring you to use higher frame rates to get smooth motion. Generally most savvy producers shoot for the delivery system that they’re going to be on so if you’re going to be actually in a theater where it is 24 frames per second and it makes sense to shoot that but if you’re shooting for something that’s going to be on TH-cam viewed on cell phone screens computer screens that are usually either 30 to 60 to 120 frames per second than you really should be shooting at at least 30 and if you have a lot of motion then you should be shooting at 60.
I thought I was crazy for this exact reason, well not knowing the technical stuff, but seeing the jittery footage at 24 fps. I’ve been shooting 30 fps for my entire time because I see it as smoother. I shoot at 1/60th, for most things but I’ve been starting to use 1/50th by accident. I needed to brighten up my drone footage with ND filter on it and ended up liking the little bit extra motion blurr I got. So in my opinion I prefer 30 fps and depending on situation I mix between the two shutter speeds. I just couldn’t understand why everyone liked 24fps so much when to me it looked so shitty!
Exactly that's what I'm saying bro, people in discord calling me names and getting mad at me because I said I use 60fps and why should I use 24fps when it's choppy and the frame rate is slow. It's like "hello" yall do realize 24fps is slow
@@rack_9 Don’t they always teach to film with the output in mind. If 24fps looks like shit on TH-cam and your a TH-camr shouldn’t you produce videos that look there best on TH-cam. Not cinema frame rate. Idk seems to make sense to me but your right there’s a lot of people who will only shoot 24fps and nothing else. I still like 30 fps shoot at 1/50th of a sec a balance of both worlds a tiny bit more motion blur but proper play back on TH-cam.
@@exposureseries3747 Never been to film school, so don’t know. Historically, 24 fps was the cinema rate established in the industry 100 years ago as a combination of acceptable quality and film stock economy, for most commercial principal photography and some theater projection (16mm was also used in distribution for greater economy, even when the work was created in 35mm). Now that fps is no longer a fixed standard for cameras, NLE and video projection, aren’t we free to create what looks best to us and our clients? I agree that if the client wants their work to look like X, then it’s our job as commercial content creators to give them what they want, or pass on the work. In pre-production, I show some client a suggested look and some alternative looks, and they must be the ones to choose the look. I want happy and paying clients to refer me more of the same, right? So, if a client sees more judder from a sample 24fps work on the TH-cam platform, and tells me the judder is not a big deal because the get what they think is a more cinematic look (I know, I know), then hey it’s their money. As for me and my taste buds, I focus on production qualities for “cinematic“ values, not frame rates, focal lengths or depth of focus. Looking forward, it just makes sense to produce at an fps rate compatible with current and likely future monitor refresh rates. That means 30fps judder far less than 24 on the current 60fps monitors in use. Tomorrow, 90, 120 and 240 may become the new standard, which will be fine because I shoot and create in 30, a prime factor of all likely future monitor refresh rates. 24 is not, and will judder into the foreseeable future.
i record in 25fps because thats the only 4k mode in my pal camera. lmao. unless i switch to ntsc then i get 24 and 30. i agree i notice stutters in 24fps, which could be because i leave the shutter speed on auto, so its probably the shutter speed too high. but overall people dont care and i feel im just overreacting to something viewers didnt care or notice. so i just ignore it and focus on the content.
I can't stand panning shots in 24fps. That includes pro made ones, like in hollywood movies. I also think typical "cinematic" stuff (24fps, dull desaturated colors, orange teal and so on) works for storytelling over 1-3 hours, and not at all for nature, sports, travel or music videos.
@@JorisHermans like u said. Brainwashed. And still editing 60 fps takes more work when it comes to special fx. The more frames the more work u have to do. The more work the computer has to do as well.
Nice topic! Now a question, for people like you and me in EU how can we shot in 30 fps without flicker? Keep shutter speed around 1/50 or? Can you say if the fps or shutter count wil cost flicker?
Very interested to see this. Jevon Dovey did a video about this which also got me curious. And yes, I’ve had the jitters as well. Keep ‘em coming, Joris. 24 or 30, you’re content is always great 👍🏻
And actually I wonder... Since most screens are 60hz there has to be that 3:2 or 2:3 pulldown, right? So what you see is not 24fps but actually more like 30 right? So can you actually see the difference between 24 and 30fps when using a shutter of 1/50th for both? Some say 30fps doesn't look as 'cinematic' but maybe it's just the shutter of 1/60th when using the 180° rule... 🤔🤯 Edit: I have my next video! I'll do the test!
@@JorisHermans exactly. When watching TH-cam on my tv I honestly cannot see any difference apart from jitters sometimes Maybe it’s my 👀 I don’t know but would be very interested in the comments.
I've been filming in 30fps because of the same problem, the first time you see those jitters and stutters in your screen you can't put your attention to the story and cinematic experience. For me, 24 is overrated. 30 is the best because you don't get the jitters and stutters without sacrificing the "cinematicness" in your films (we're talking about a difference of only 6 frames, 30 still looks cinematic).
Well, I'm not at all an expert but they know how fast they can pan before the judder happens. Then again, you can't pan super slow all the time so I guess they try to avoid those medium fast pans where the effect is most noticeable... But again, I'm just guessing here...
After decades of being exposed to high framerate PC games, and using high refresh rate displays, 24hz always seems kind of stuttery to me. Even in cinemas! Pans and drone shots show significant juddering to a trained eye. 30fps makes everything look more natural and smooth, while still preserving a "cinematic" look.
What are jitter and stutter? Are we sure that they are really videography terms? I can't find explanations about stutter and people corrected others by naming it judder instead of jitter.
@@JorisHermans Me too Joris, that's why we struggling sometimes on technical terms. By the way while i catch you here, i am waiting more tutorials bro. Like your old lightning setup videos. Have a nice day bro.
Well, living in a PAL region the whole discussion is moot anyway because shooting at 30 fps, you will get VERY REAL FLICKERING from a lot of LED lights. Any jitters that may result from mismatching framerates (which I’ve never noticed) aren’t nearly as bad as the kind of flicker that will ruin any footage. And at least from my experience trying flicker reduction in camera and deflicker in Resolve, you often end up running into issues that those tools can’t resolve. So 25 fps it is for me.
@@JorisHermans i bet all your problems will go away and it is so close to 24fps that you retain the “cinematic” look and feel. Basically, nobody will be able to tell the difference, but the actual footage looks smooth… I started my YT channel recording by at 24 but after 2 videos I realised YT was doing something funny to it. Switched to 25fps and voilà.
I shoot travel videos for yt and I always shoot 60fps coz it looks so real. I am even not comfortable with 30! Once I accidentally shot at 30 and regretted it later coz you can see the jitter in fast pans. Even in the theatre when I see the jitter I'm like it's high time to move on from 24 fps!
@@paulanderegg5536 How do you explain "way too smooth" ? 60FPS looks great and natural. Look at the world by your eyes - can you see any choppy stuff ? The answer is NO. When you shoot 30fps and pan you get choppy trouble. 60FPS - FOREVER.
TH-cam and other platforms should not modify any video or audio. I dont like what they are doing, 99% of the cases the video and audio gets much much worse.
yeah, and anyway, if you share it on socials it gets quite choppy as the native frame rate on socials is 30fps. so basically IG, Tiktok double every 4th frame. Awful... I shoot everything in 30fps.
TH-cam doesn't do anything. 24 fps or 23.976 fps videos look choppy because you’re watching it on a display with a refresh rate of 60 hz or above. So you see some double frames
30p does seem to be easiest to create and digest for me personally. It's the standard for broadcast TV and Journalistic Documentaries. 25p/25p does look pleasing for cinematic movies, but most videos on YT are not movies, they are talking head videos and general nonsense so there is really no point in the slower cinematic frame rates for those. So sit back and relax with 30p and if you have a lot of fast action in your videos, bump up to 60p for those.
I prefer to shoot in 50 to 60 fps and save it in 30fps so it’s super smooth and has a great cinematic look and it works really good when u have anything in slow motion💪
24fps for cinematic. 30fps+ for other types of video. Nothing feels as cinematic or as dramatic as 24fps. We only film in 24fps because we make serious and realistic videos. If we were making TH-cam videos or using videos for documenting (not a 'documentary') something visually we'd use 30fps+. If you want that movie feel, nothing is better than 24fps.
My phone has adaptive refresh rate so if a video is 24 fps my phone screen will only refresh 24 times per second. I don't think the problem with 60 hz screens will apply here. It also helps with battery life too.
For better result and more smooth and cinematic shoot in 60 frame. The technical words for those stutters and jitters are FREEZE FRAME. Guys in Hollywood are familiar with that.
To be honest I got the same problem,when I was shooting videos with my drone in 4k/24 fps on my phone screen everything was fine,but when I was checking again on my computer I was pretty much angry with all the jitters and stutters,so yeah,I understand you brother
what if you shoot in 3fps but edit in 24fps timeline and then export and upload in 24fps? I saw someone using 30fps on a 24fps timeline with 80% speed and it looked amazing.
@@JorisHermans Though monitors have varying refresh rates to include numbers like 45 and 15 and 75. And then for gaming monitors there is adaptive sync and 144 Hz. Somehow things would have to be designed to work in all combinations (not all combinations being ideal). But yes if there is a 2-3 pull down going from 24 fps to 60 fps, then 30 fps would be better for 60 Hz monitors.
There’s a difference between fps and screen refresh rate. The comment stating that TH-cam displays in 30fps is wrong. It does any framerate you want (unlike Facebook and Instagram, they do convert everything to 30fps.)
@@JorisHermansNot sure if this is what actually happens, but doing the math: Every 4 frames in a 24 fps sequence is equal to 5 frames in a 30 fps sequence. Every 2 frames in a 24 fps sequence is equal to 5 frames in a 60 fps sequence. The best conversion is when each frame in 24 fps sequence is evenly distributed in the higher fps sequence. If you convert from 24 fps to 30 fps, the cleanest way to do it is to make every 5th frame (in the 30 fps version) a duplicate of the 4th frame. Then if that is converted to 60 fps, then each frame gets doubled, so that frames 1 to 3 in the 24 fps sequence gets 2 frames, while frame 4 gets 4 frames. This means every 4/24 = 1/6 seconds, you perceive a frame that is twice as long as the rest. When converting directly from 24 fps to 60 fps, the frames can be more evenly distributed, such that frame 1 in the 24 fps sequence gets 2 frames in the 60 fps sequence, and frame 2 gets 3 frames. This means every other perceived frame, 1/12 seconds, you get a perceived frame that is 3/2 = 1.5 times longer than the one before. So I think a 1.5 times magnitude modulation in time running at 12 Hz is less noticeable than a 2 times magnitude modulation at 6 Hz. The question is whether YT actually converts everything to 30 fps before converting to 60 fps, or whether it can display frame rates in between. The fact that odd frame rates like 48 fps and 50 fps actually shows up in the Quality options suggests the latter, but this would need to be verified. I think converting to an intermediate frame rate before going to the final frame rate is less efficient and if YT has well optimized their video processing, they would avoid this.
Great content as usual. Fair point, but Im tot really a fan of how 30fps looks when trying to get that cinematic look which I prefer. Anyways I love the hue of your RBG light, please share how I can achieve it. thanks
It's just a blue RGB light set at hue 200 but I think it's the color of the wall that's more important. Google Granite Peak SW 6250 from Sherwin-Williams paints for the exact color 😉
You are all right, TH-cam destroy the video Quality, To avoid that a little bit I shot on 60 FPS, 1/50 when camera is moving. Even so 4k video is destroyed by TH-cam system.
There's nothing inherently right or wrong with 24 fps. It simply a standard that closely resembles realistic motion that all studios agreed upon back in the early development of film. Before that, we got the jumpiness seen frequently in the old silent Charlie Chaplin films. Thing is, film wasn't developed for TV which came long after and uses a 60 hertz display (in the U.S.). The two technologies were incompatible so a compromise had to be made known as the 2/3 pulldown. A device call a telecine is used to turn the 24 fps film into a 60 hz (50 hz in Europe) signal for display. There's just no enough information to fill the gap so some frames have to be repeated. The problem is 24 won't divide evenly, and that causes an issue. The reason for that is because 24 fps was originally developed to be shown in theaters long before it was adapted for TV and its electronic transmission. It is during fast pans where where a lot of information flows past the screen that jitter becomes most noticeable. Sometimes it cause an optical confusion that your brain can detect, and you may have to momentarily look away. I get way during the opening pan across the township in The Incredible Hulk movie (2008). Better to just do away with 24 fps at this point, and switch to 30 fps which is virtually imperceptible. I'd avoid 60 fps unless absolutely necessary for fast action/sports.
I film in 4k 60fps after that I edit the footages in 4k 24fps, why? Suddenly I like some part and I wanted to put in slow motion I don't to worry "ohh I forgot to put my camera in 60fps" I think 30fps is good but 60 or 120fps are the best codec you can get in films to have any choice in editing. Cheers
Thanks for the many comments, but does anyone know why there is still PAL for 25/50/100 fps and NTSC for 24/30/60/120? Why is it not possible just to select the fps and shutter I want? Is there anything else what is modified if I switch from PAL and NTSC to get 30 fps?
Supposedly PAL has better image quality because it has 625 horizontal lines but I think that was mainly a thing in the analogue years. In today's digital video content I doubt if that's even noticeable or even relevant 🤔
@@JorisHermans Yes, PAL/NTSC was needed in old times to separate the different resolutions and fps but today everything is 720p/1080/4K and the question was why do I have to switch between the 2 modes. For example my Sony A7S3 can do 25 fps but if I want to switch to 30 I have first to change the camera to NTSC mode and in a second step can change the frame rate. Wyh is it not possible just to switch between 24/25/30/50/60 etc. why is the extra and inconvenient step to switch NTSC/PAL needed? Maybe someone knows if there are other changes in the background?
@@andreaswening I think it's a matter of not overwhelming the user with too many options. Obviously experts want the full list without having to change the region, but lots of cameras are marketed to beginners and intermediates.
this is why i stopped doing 24 fps on youtube it just doesnt look as smooth depending on the content. so i do 30 fps or 60 for smooth zooms and pans and etc (i have multiple channels)
![Does 24FPS REALLY Look More Cinematic Than 30FPS [Or 60]?](/img/n.gif)
So, according to some people in the comments YT itself doesn't mess with the frame rate but can someone confirm this is 100% fact? 🤔 And sorry about the audio! Still a lot of work to do in my new studio 😵💫💥
You can test TH-cam playback frame-rate by setting your video camera to record the display, set FPS and shutter to match your content as noted in stats for nerds. Place the recorded clip of the display on your timeline, and advance one frame at a time and look for any inconsistencies. This is also a good way to test your TV's motion and film mode settings to see how it butchers frame-rate consistency.
It's actually going to look more "Broadcast" or "Sports" style if you do 30 FPS. I only shoot in 24/60/120/180/240 fps etc - and edit in a 24 timeline. I see no jitters on TH-cam uploads for corporate work (And I shoot for J&J and a lot of higher end clients now with the studio I'm at). It just gives it a different look, but the jitter is because your shutter is not set properly for the look you want.
@@cinestyleinc May be getting into what terminology is being used to describe visual issues. I think he is describing cadence as it is being rendered by the display devices watching his content?
TH-cam absolutely does not transcode to a different framerate; you can verify this yourself if you download the video using something like youtube-dl and check the downloaded file. What you're seeing are framerate cadence issues that occur on TVs that only have a 60Hz refresh rate. Anyone over the age of 40 has gotten used to 2/3/2/3 cadence issues because that's what TVs were locked to up until about 10 years ago, but for anyone under the age of 40, I can see how it might be bothersome. My advice: Don't edit for what you think your viewer is watching on; edit for yourself, your vision, your content. In the future, all TVs will be 240Hz or higher and it won't be an issues, so edit for the future, not right now :-)
@@JimLeonard but TH-cam as a player will only output at 60hz, the content maybe 24fps but TH-cam won't display it as such, unless there is a way to change TH-cam's fps output that I am not aware of ?.
I'm an engineer by occupation, an audiophile and videophile by avocation.
What follows primarily addresses the technical side of this discussion. The issues and impacts are complex. Here's a very simplified synopsis:
The "jitter" you've seen is very real. The degree to which it is a problem varies from individual to individual.
If a video is shot at 24 frames per second (fps), edited at 24 fps and displayed at 24 fps, movement is as "smooth" as a 24 fps capture will allow. The exact same thing is true for 25, 30 and 60 fps respectively. When frames are displayed at other than an integer multiple of the cadence (frame to frame timing) that one's video camera captured, jitter is present. Period. It might not be irritating, you might not even be able to spot it. But it IS there. (Some degree of judder is also present but that's a different conversation.)
Frames per second are frequently changed - usually related to cost. In the U.S., by far, the most common frame rate alteration is "3:2 pulldown." Each two frames of a 24 fps video are converted into five. Two duplicates of each odd numbered frame are created and one duplicate of each even numbered frame is created.
Skipping directly to the effect, with 3:2 pulldown, a display effectively shows the first frame for 1/20th of a second, the second frame for 1/30 of a second - averaging - 1/24 of a second per frame. The TV then rinses and repeats, Every odd numbered image is displayed for a longer period of time than it should have been, every even numbered image is display for a shorter period of time than it should have been. Frame to timing is also impacted. Fast moving objects "jitter." Rapidly brightening or dimming objects "jitter."
I personally do not like corrupted cadence "jitter." Jitter isn't present if neither the source provider nor one's TV mess with cadence. Jitter isn't present if the source material was recorded at 30, 60 or 120 fps. Many love "the cinematic look" so much that they will gladly put up with jitter. I'm not among their ranks.
I'm tired. I'm finished. I hope you didn't find this to be a word salad.
Ok tell me one thing. I shoot with my Sony 7R V in 25 FPS, and when I do Pan movement for ex in the streets, Everthing is so jittery so this shitty judder thing is preset. Now... They say the Movies are also created in 25 or 24 FPS but I cannot see any jitter in Hollywood movies. How can it be?
When I shoot 30 FPS or more, it is much more better and smoother. when I shoot in 24, it is rubbish....
@@leventeszabo3091
That your camera footage jitters when movie footage does not is perplexing. Can you find out what the native frame rate of your TV is? Do you know what shutter angle your camera shoots at?
Movies are projected in 24 (48) fps. Most monitors and phone screens are 60hz. That's why it looks like that. Also, when panning, even for movies, there's a "speed limit" to avoid jitteryjudder mess.
@@leventeszabo3091
I believe Joris nailed the reason for the apparent disparity. Your pans have exceeded the 24 fps "speed limit" and the movie pans have not.
This video from Gerald Undone makes everything crystal clear: th-cam.com/video/qAVfIQ2G7Io/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kXb2Xy6HQ5o6qtpj
Has anyone else experienced the 24fps jitters and stutters on TH-cam? 🤔😵💫
And sorry about the audio! Still a lot of work to do in my new studio 😵💫💥
I just took some test shots of my own custom built studio, sent it thru email to another channel in Malaysia and when I downloaded the video on my email, yes... it was jittery and laggy. Compression anywhere it goes to.
To be honest I couldn’t see the jitteriness of the 24fps. (Watching on a smart phone from America)
Interesting for me I like 30 because it goes well with 60-120 found mixing 25 and 60 -120 and there were issues. Excited to see what you find though. You image is so clear now. I found before you a little over contrast but now I want a little bit more and the more saturated blue back! Just a thought. We are all always changing and trying new stuff so always like giving a little feed back. Hope you are well and congrats on your new space and continued growth. See you around bud!
Joris Hermans: OUI Tu as raison!! 30fps is much smoother especially for NTSC here in Canada. Even better, I shoot EVERYTHING in 60fps and then EDIT in a 60fps Timeline. People it’s 2022 so do we really need to be shooting and editing at only 24fps because that’s what they had available in the 1930´s and 40 ‘s with their old metallic mechanical shutters? Many TH-camrs insist on this traditional way of doing things. We now have the technology to do much better. 24fps has too much choppiness and motion-blur as there are too few frames for the processor to write to. Especially when panning or scenes with lots of motion you know what I’m talking about! I have done many side by side tests with this and that is why I shoot at 60fps and EDIT at 60fps that way your audio is still in sync (everything is real-time not slo-mo) but you have more frames to capture crisp, clear, sharp detail and movement in the scene and especially when you pan!! You still get some nice motion blur. A little motion-blur is natural but fuzzy pixels and stuttering jittery motion when panning at 24p drives me crazy. It’s terrible at accurately depicting motion! Yes your files at 60p are larger, doesn’t bother me…I usually try to stick with the 180 degree rule for shutter so 1-125. I will try using it at 1-60 sec shutter as Gerald Undone suggests to minimized the ‘soap opera effect’ and add more natural motion-blur with the slower shutter.. SHOOTING AT 60P is so immersive and life-like (Edit in 60 p though unless you want slo-mo)
Just try it ! J’ai finis mon discours Joris! 😜
@@stevenkralovec same
You are right, you should shoot and edit with the knowledge of how the result will be viewed. If it will be viewed in a cinema theater where they have an actual 24 fps projector you should shoot and work in 24 fps… But as you correctly point out phones, tablets, laptops and other flatscreens, with the exception of very high end screens, are 30/60hz and therefore requires pulldown and will show 24 fps footage in 30 fps - with any fast subject or camera movements getting stutter. Worst case scenario is shooting in 30 fps, timeline it in 24 “to make it cinematic” and then uploading it to TH-cam, preferably with 360 degree drone panning… remove 6 frames every second to make 30 into 24 and then put the missing 6 frames back with pull down… This said, stutter is actually very “cinematic”, as 24 is too slow to make any fast objects or panning smooth and you see it in most films even if they use dolly moves rather than panning to avoid this. But is stutter the “cinematic” we want? When all screens can show 120 fps natively we will have the choice between 24 and 30 but today 30 fps gives by far the smoothest result.
100% agree Fred! Solid explanation thank you! Take a look at my comment I left. Not this reply. My comment on the actual video. I probably did a bad job explaining it but I've had people argue that what we're watching on tv is 30fps when it's 24 with the pull down method. Even though it's pulled down and holds some frames we're still only seeing 24 new frames of motion in one second. Therefore watching a movie that was in theaters being broadcasted today on something like FX, it's still actually being watched as 24fps to our eyes. Even though it's technically now 30. There's only 24 new frames of motion per second.
You could maybe try doing everything on a 60p timeline, or at least export at 60p. I often have to take in and edit and intercut footage that was shot at 24, 30, 60i, 60p, and 120p and I find that having a common denominator of a 60p timeline makes everything go so much smoother and allows you to have a lot more control over the frame interpolation so that when it does get uploaded to TH-cam, the worst that will happen is they drop every other frame down to 30fps. If it looks reasonably good at 60p, it won't have as much issue at 30. Just my two cents.
I've noticed that if you're trying to sync music to cuts, 24 just doesn't give you enough accuracy. You end off not being able to cut right where you want. Also if you do pans in say broll you will very easily get stutter, especially for drone shots because the drone is typically not moving super slow. If you're actually making movie then live with the limitations, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense.
Bro... You blew my mind haha. I've always wondered wtf happened when I watch my export back. The music seems like its always just 1 frame off when I upload it. But in Premiere its fine
24fps doesn't make anything cinematic. Shooting skills, lighting, and story telling makes movies cinematic. People are stupid.
@gothamindembaum See how cinematic a phone flushed down a toilet shot at 24fps is.
😂😂😂😂
i would post a link to a 30fps clip and a 24 but if you look for comparisons on google you can see a difference in stuttering FOR SURE.
for people saying 24 always looks better than 30 they have the same motion blur, the difference is a few extra frames. panning on 24 is choppier than 30 no doubt. if your camera doesn’t have stabilization 30 will look like a HUGE step up in quality. for youtubers the appeal is that we aren’t a movie, but we also aren’t 60fps. 30 is a great mix of looking realistic with motion blur without all the extra frames. 24 is just a few too little for most walking work. 24 fps also can’t be slowed down. 30 fps can be slowed by 80% to be a perfect 24 frame timeline and adds a nice dreamy look.
also no flickering is huge for me
I was also thinking the same thing. I switched to 30 on my drone and it helped tons. I also was thinking the same thing. 24 doesn't seem to be doing me any favors on TH-cam.
I also like 30 for TH-cam, especially for having more fluid motion.
24 looks too jittery on YT when having a lot of motion.
@@Meteor79000 absolutely correct. I haven’t seen any of the big film TH-camrs explain this when they shout 24fps from the rooftops. There’s an asterisk: fps with refresh rate determines judder or no judder. It has nothing to do with TH-cam’s processing of the file. A juddering 24fps video on a 60Hz monitor, looks smooth on a 120Hz tv. Want your video to be viewed with no judder on the most displays? Use 30fps.
@@chrisharris_arizona
One learns to deal with defects in the video and audio media that one consumes. For decades I watched 24 fps content on TVs that would only display at 60 fps. Jitter was there, I simplly blocked it out. Did I have any choice?
About a decade back we replaced our living room TV with a TV that could display 120 fps. It was a if Merlin had come through and waved a magic wand. Movies in particular looked SO much better.
... Long story made short, I researched and discovered the source of the improvement.
We will never buy another TV with a 60 hertz panel.
@@numbersix9477 I wonder going forward if there’s any use to anyone manufacturing 60Hz displays for anything (besides price…but they aren’t great with 24fps so they add cost to your eyes). I know there’s some phones that do 120Hz now. To be the most compatible with most frame rates (in the US), they need to be 120 or 240Hz. Let’s just get everyone to 120Hz already haha.
I shot 24 FPS the last 3+ years for my channel. I’m not even sure where I heard that this was the “standard“. But I decided to switch to 30 FPS in the beginning of this year, and I think this is where I will stay.
I've always been confused by why to shoot in 24fps, when it doesn't play natively on many displays without special settings to change the display refresh rate down. The jutters and stutters always bothered me as well so I stuck with 30.
Same here!! I thought it was just me going crazy lol
Do you shoot for actual cinema? If no, stay away from 24.
24 sucks!! I always shoot in 30p or 60p. Way smoother especially for TH-cam and when panning especially
I've learned more since the last time I commented. So long story kinda short, you ARE seeing things. Depending on how your camera works in different modes (PAL vs NTSC) it could be shooting 23.976 when you have 24 selected. This makes a difference if your project timeline is not exactly matched. On top of that, youtube re-encodes 23.976 to 24, which causes judders. On top of that the 180 shutter rule on most cameras for 24 turns out to not function for that reason MIXED WITH the fact that they tend to not have 1/48, and instead have 1/50.
My point is, I know you shot 30 with a 1/50 for a month and decided to go back to 24, BUT, I propose two new trials for you. Shoot 30 with a 1/33.3 shutter (for no flicker but more motion blur to compensate having extra frames. If you can't set that shutter speed, the equivalent in angle is 324 degrees.) and outside of that, shoot 25 (which on most cameras is integer 25 aka actual/real 25) with a slower 1/40 shutter speed for just a touch of extra smoothness. And of course no judder due to timeline mismatch and YT re-encoding bullcrap.
Alternatively, if you wanna stick to the 180 guideline, 25-1/50 works just fine, though if you ever travel to NTSC land, you'll need to change the shutter to 1/30, 1/40, or 1/60 in order to not have artificial light flicker. ((Really my point is if you can't reconcile the extra frames with 30, 25p 1/40 is the best one size fits all setup.))
Let us know what happens in testing! And may your footage be blessed to look great, regardless! After all, composition and lighting are more important that frame rate. (especially when you don't include shutter speed in frame rate and set it to human natural perception with is 1/40-1/50 for lower FPS, and 360-degrees shutter angle for above 40fps.)
@alldayplayin Great considerations. Did you had any other problem because of the 23.976?
Lol I actually just commented the same, but minus the explanation. Glad I saw this comment.
I only shoot Fuji, so 180 is easy (which brands don't have 180 shutter speeds?). The look is what's most important, right? I have to say 30/60 will always remind me of 90's soap opera's, especially Peter Jacksons 60 fps attemps. 24 still provides the most natural movement to my eye.
Imo, we've become used to 30fps because youtube Channels are largely self taught, leading to this eco chamber. There's also not a lot of color graded action scenes. Of course, ymmv.
@@AmeriMutt76 I night shoot 23.976 1/48 HLG3 in the UK, I tried 50 1/100 but there was far too much grain in dark areas. I occasionally get a bit of banding at the bottom of the image when filming near a street light. my camera doesn't support 25fps in the 265 codec.
I made a video on this topic too ... we aren't making movies, we are making TH-cam videos. We should use the frame rate that works best for that format. Also I get a lot of clips from friends that shoot on smartphone and the are usually 30fps --- easier to share. Good show and good observations. Cheers.
You are on the right track. Those who are insistent on 24 fps are stuck in history. It is a fictitious number. Determined more by the length of 35 mm film than reality. Higher frame rates meant larger canisters. Expensive.
You are pixel peeping if you can really see the difference between 25 and 30 fps. The average person can't see unless told to critically examine it. And Broadcast TV is 30 fps. I shoot 5k 50 fps because it is so much smoother. Most of us are not producing true cinematic film. Like Casablanca or Citizen Kane.
Shooting most drone video would more likely be classified as documentary. Sticking to the 180 rule "may" give a better result. So 5K 50 fps at 1/100 sec. And for all TH-cams, you are not trying to produce true cinematic effect. This is a over argued issue for the purists amongst us.
DUDE this drove me absolutely crazy for the longest time. I've been shooting in 24fps ever since I started videography. Someone tried to tell me that American Tv was all 30fps and I didn't believe them at first. But once I did my research I found out that tvs are all 60hz and 24 doesn't go into it evenly and ends up skipping every 3rd frame. That sent me down a rabbit hole trying to figure out fps and refresh rates. It drove me crazy because smartphones and most laptops are still 60hz as well. Some are 120hz as is mine. 120 goes into 24 evenly so I never noticed jittering or skipping of frames. FOR 3 YEARS IVE BEEN DELIVERY VIDEOS BACK TO CLIENTS IN 24FPS. Their videos are playing like shat when they watch them on their 60hz screens😂 I have an iphone 13 that has variable refresh ad up to 120hz so I never knew what they were playing back like in 60hz. I think what bothers me most about 24fps is that I want so badly to keep using it because I know it looks cinematic and badass on my end but It's looking jittery on someone else's end. Another thing I try to point out to people is that, technically American tv is in 30fps yes but when we do a 3:2 pull down onto a 24fps movie to be broadcast on tv, it's still actually 24fps to our eyes. We're only seeing 24 new frame of movement. The pull down method adds freeze frames in between. It doesn't magically add 6 new frames with movement. Hopefully that makes sense. I figured this out by doing an experiment: Setup a camera on a tripod and film your tv screen and set your camera to 60fps to match the refresh rate of your tv. Every frame you see in the video will be showing a newly refreshed image on the screen. Find something you know for a fact is in 30fps (Just put on the local news or something) Get at least a 1 second video of that. Now open Netflix or any streaming service and put on a movie you know if 24fps. (Stranger Things is 24fps) get at least a 1 second clip of that. Toss them into your editor (I use Premiere) Create a 60fps fps sequence and import the clip you got of whatever was showing in 30fps on your tv (The news). Trim it so it's 1 second long. Then manually go through each frame and keep track every time there is a new frame with movement (NOT FREEZE FRAMES). For 30fps there should be a new frame with movement every other frame because it's 30fps on a 60fps timeline. When you reach the end of the clip you should of counted 30 new frame of movement in the 1 second clip. Now delete that clip and add in the 24fps clip you recorded (Stranger Things) onto your 60fps sequence. Trim it to 1 second and do the exact same thing. Go through frame by frame. Again counting each new frame with movement (NOT FREEZE FRAMES). You should be get a new frame with movement followed by 2 freeze frames. Then a new frame with movement followed by 1 freeze frame. Then this cycle continues. Essentially your getting 3 frame holds on screen then 2 frame holds on screen. This is where the name 3:2 pull down comes. When you get to the end of the clip you should have counted 24 new frames of movement. Even though it is it's being broadcasted and converted into 30fps with the 3:2 pull down, it's still being seen as 24fps to our eyes. This is why I didn't believe the guy when he told me everything you see on TV is in 30fps. Because it's not necessarily true. I used to binge watch movies on FX back when they actually were known for only playing movies. It was so obvious it was 24fps to my eye especially when watching it all day during the summer than switching to the local news which was 30fps. All in all, yes it 30fps but its kind of not at the same time if it's the 3:2 drop down. Don't ask me what method they use to convert British 25fps to 30 for American TV haha. But back to the topic on hand, TH-cam. As far as I know TH-cam does not perform the 3:2 pull down. I feel like if that were the case then it would look normal on any monitor regardless the refresh rate. Because then it's not going to skip any frames. If it DIDN"T do the 3:2 method and you watched your 24fps video on a 60hz monitor than you would get this effect. But i'm confused because I see exactly what you're talking about in your example video and my laptop is 120fps? Daphuq?
So what frame rate should we use? Lol
@@exceptico6156 the higher the better.
Can’t wait to see your results!
Something that may be worth looking into is 30 fps with a 1/50 shutter speed instead of the 1/60. Though the 1/10 difference may produce an almost imperceptible difference 😂
60p with 1/60 shutter looks like a really good TV viewing 30p with motion settings enabled on low ;-)
The difference between 1/50 and 1/60 is not the 1/10 lol.
I suggest everyone in this comments section go take a motion picture film class at a community college and learn about the origin of film, motion picture and the phenomena of "persitence of vision" as it pertains to 24fps as the ideal rate at which the human mind processes images. Monitors using motion smoothing or variable frame rates above 24 fps are giving you a degraded image, not a superior one. The reason we have 29.97 ntsc in the first place was because of broadcast technology develoepd for enocidng information via satelites. The uk has PAL because they opted for a different broadcast language. That tech was about transference easibility, not quality. TV manufactureres are adding variable frame rates to solve a oroblem that wasnt thereto get consumers to purvchase new models. I never thought Id see the day when video enthusiasts would be shunning a bedrock axiom of film and video production.
Pretty cool info!
I like this!
Yeah this video and the comments concern me. TH-cam definitely has some compression issues but shooting at 30fps is not the solution.
I was under the assumption that 29.97 and Pal 30fps was because early television tech used the electrical generation source in the country to time their images ... USA being almost 60hz and PAL countries using 50hz electrical sources. I don't think satellites were an issue when the first TV broadcasts were made ... there were no satellites. Am I wrong?
I suggest you do not involve everyone in the comments, everyone has diferent experiences don't generalize your answer. Don't be rude with people because politely you sent everyone to study. Mr perfect.
I look forward to your experiment. Following for sure.
I got a question. im gona start shooting in 4k 30 fps. but I still will be using 1080 60 for for some slow motion stuff, will my footage be ok when I upload it
Should be fine, I also mix 4K and 1080. THere's a difference in sharpness when you watch on a 4K screen but it's negligible especially on TH-cam.
@@JorisHermans hey bro, thanks for responding! That means alot to me! I have watched a few of your videos, not sure how I found them, but keep up the good work! I enjoy yur style
I noticed the same thing, maybe its ok on tripod only or gimbal that doesn't involve lots of movements. at 50fps looks much more smoother than 25fps .
In order to be in synch with european 50hz screens, you just have to pay attention to you shutterspeed in order to avoid flickering from lights or monitors. It has to be 50 or 100 and the framerate can them be anything you like and all should be fine. I think that 30 fps is the way to go for most things, because it’s the standard framerate for most video platforms. 50 or 60 can be interesting for slowmo. I only see interest for 24 fps if you want to shoot movies.
Are you still going to use a 24p timeline when editing or switch that to 30 too?
30p timeline, 30p render.
are you using hvec 265, or h2.64 codec on export? I found 264 and export at mwv. stops the stutter.
I use 24fps because of color changing lights. for some reason any time I shoot in 30fps, the lights flicker between colors, but 24fps seems to smooth that out. 🤷♂️
Where do you live? Do you set the shutter at 1/60th when shooting 30fps and 1/50th when shooting 24fps?
Dig your bold perspective man. New subscriber here!
Yep, I'm bold. Bold and beautiful 😎😂
@@JorisHermans well thanks to you I’m now realizing & starting to try a standard 30fps. Let’s see how it goes!
Wow, I have almost always been shooting 60p for the last 4-5 years and recently trying to shoot 24 fps on my Sony A7IV handheld. I just shot yesterday and all the footage actually looks pretty horrible. Lot's of jitters and wobbles like you stated in the beginning and I even had active stabilizing turned on, but it almost looks like there was 0 stabilization.. It is so bad I do not even know how to save the video. I even checked my camera 4 times today to see if I had something set up wrong. It almost looks like I had my shutter at 1/20th or something but it was all shot at 1/50th. What in the heck could have gone wrong?
Your studio/background looks so good, really good! What do you use to light your background?
A cheap white LED panel and a small RGB light.
@@JorisHermans Thank you! Looks really good!
@@CristinaFilms The color on the wall makes all the difference! I painted them with Granite Peak SW6250 from Sherwin Williams. If you google it you'll get the exact color.
@@JorisHermans how nice of you to share☺️Thank you!
@@CristinaFilms You never know if you feel like painting 🤷🏻♂️😄
Dude-you rock. 🤙🏽 Super helpful.
24fps is just what viewers have become use to since the invention of sound in film, some ninety years ago... 24fps was
the least amount af frames and still get smooth, quality sound... We have become use to the motion- blur that it gives us...
For me, I shoot everything at 30fps-1/60 shutter, I've found it looks better, (smoother), than at 24... Thx, Moses...
Its not just because we're used to it. Movies look awful in anything over 24fps.
I saw The Hobbit in theaters when it played in 48fps and it looked like a cheap daytime soap opera.
When boulders fell I could clearly see they were nothing more than giant pieces of foam.
Every special effect, set piece, makeup and prosthetic was so obviously fake It completely disrupted the suspension of disbelief.
@@deluego3603 48 fps from my understanding, is what is called "double framed" the same exact frame is repeated
twice, for hyper clarity/sharpness, so it's a super clear 24 fps... I don't really like it also, that's different than say,
30/60fps ... Thx, Moses...
I shoot all my projects in either 30 or 60 frames per second. And not once have I ever had a client have an issue with any frame rate issue honestly what makes it better or rather more important factor in the quality of your video is your color bit depth so you can fix mixed lighting have more leeway to make it look good. Frame rate tends to be the lowest common denominator unless of course you’re shooting some thing that’s high motion. The only time I’ve ever shot at 24 frames per second was for another videographer who still thinks that 24 frames is the cats ass?! Go figure.
Question, if I shoot everything in 60fps even during ppl giving a speech will my video be good? And am I able to edit in a 24fps timeline or only in 60fps timeline?
I had to go from 30fps to 60fps for the exact jitters as you're talkin about in this video... Our cameras are always panning or moving at a higher pace because we're filming motorsports so that's likely the reason I feel 60+fps works best for us 👊😎
Exactly
60FPS - is the best. People just overuse the term "cinematic look", do not really understand what it is... The thing is - USE ND FILTER and 180 degree rule for shutter speed. And it will be motion blur FOREEVER!!
@@VASILASISwait the 180degree rule will give you motion blur?
And you edit on 60fps timeline? Or 24timeline?
I watch a lot of TH-cam and basically no movies. Anything less than 50 to me looks like a choppy mess, and I really don't understand why anyone would post in anything below 50 provided they have gear that handles it
24fps was the film industry standard for almost 100 years (1930). 4x3 30fps (29.97) NTSC was the USA broadcast TV standard (1953). 16:9 30fps 1080 HDTV is the current video standard (2006 Blu-Ray, 2014 broadcast networks), to be replaced by 4k after 2035. 24fps has it’s aesthetic appeal in a 30 world, as do 60, 90, 120 and 240, especially for motion and gaming, and plenty of filmmakers still maintain a death-grip on 24 or 23.976 even as standards change in both computer monitors and cinema video projection, which represent almost all of their distribution income stream. However, does it not just makes sense to future-proof our work from creation instead of live with judder-induced regret as refresh rates continue to rise in multiples of 30? We're not so concerned about the expense of capturing or projecting six more film frames per second anymore...
I always shoot in 24FPS but always thought they looked jittery so I switched to 30 FPS and they seem fine now. So sticking with 30 FPS for now it just seems much smoother.
Depends on what you shoot. I have no idea why anyone would want their, idk, car, bird, product, travel etc footage to be "cinematic". Most videos would be terrible if treated like the godfather.
Yep, it is jumpy (viewing in germany). Could also be compression artifacts?
Let's hope 30fps will solve it... or most of it anyways.
Yo también experimenté lo mismo. Incluso noto a veces ese tartamudeo de los 24 fps, sin subirlo en TH-cam. Para mí lo mejor es 30 fps
Shoot in 30fps. It makes the most sense. I can't believe the number of people online who push 24fps as "cinematic" without any real technical background. Shown in theaters 24fps (film projectors show each frame twice making it 48) would look great. Computer monitor refresh is most often tied to AC (hence 60 in NTSC compatible and 50 in PAL compatible areas). While people tout the motion blur that's countered by the pull-down. Some computer monitors can be set to 24 (48) but your typical user isn't going to do that. The pull-down was "less bad" during the days when interlace was common since one could add extra fields rather than frames.So 24p could become 30fps (59.94 interlaced frames for TV) without being as obvioius.
TH-cam and NTSC compatible TVs (even if HD and UHD) are tied to 30 so there's no pull-down.
BTW this is why there's an aesthetic attraction to PAL rates as 25fps gives you close to the same motion (and blur) as 24 and yet doesn't need to be changed for PAL compatible computer monitors or TV settings. I think at one time there was a push for a "universal" frame rate during HDTV's development to get rid this 25 vs 30 vs 24 frame rate stuff.
I've been working in video professionally since the 1980s in broadcast post-production so I've been dealing with this for decades. I think the push for 24 is overdone given modern technology.
Shoot in 30fps even in PAL regions?
Yeah, just set your shutter speed to 1/50th and lights won't flicker.
@@JorisHermans sure, but if try 120p in PAL area you won't be able to avoid flicker no matter the shutter speed. So money wasted for your camera
@@petrub27 Ever heard of LED lights? They don't cause flicker... 😎
@@JorisHermans the street lights in my area are not LED
Good video Joris - it’s good to experiment that’s how you learn n’est-ce-pas?
Yes! 💯 Learn every day 💥
I shoot mostly adventure videos with some action scenes. 25fps is the best for me. You can shoot all in 50fps and you can work on 25p timeline and have slomo if you want. And it looks way better than 24fps. No jitters at all.
I do the same and totally agree with you.
That's interesting 🤔
Same here. 25fps
Do the same and the slomo is good.
Why not 24p?
Finally someone recognizes that 24fps is great in cinema but fights against the native framerates of 80% of devices out there
There is a reason why most TH-camrs like Mr.Beast uses 30FPS you can also get the same cinematic experience if you always use the 180 degree rule. I switched awhile back and never went back. And there is a reason why some companies have to add 24fps as a firmware update later and give you 30-60fps when it’s first released.
You're not the first content creator who's suggested shooting in 30fps instead of 24fps. There's also the added benefit of being able to slow down the footage in 30fps. However you do lose light when shooting in low light situations. This is very all interesting. 🤔
I'll stay tuned to see how it works out for you. 👍🏾
I'm very curious myself! I know it should look smoother but question is how much... 🤔🤨
It’s not just you. I’ve noticed that earlier in my shooting experience. Which is why I shoot exclusively is 30fps. I only do 24fps when filmmaking.
24fps is good for movies or artistic videos, if done well (!), because it naturally elicits a dream like mood. Like we are watching a memory. Which complements that kind of content. People vlogging in 24fps because it’s “what the movies guys do for cinema” is stupid in my opinion. 30 fps strikes a nice balance between 24 and 60fps. Where 60fps looks hyper real and is good for sports or maybe even a wildlife focused show. I also agree the 3:2 pulldown happening makes 24fps objectively worse for this kind of content. Movies are shooting 24fps and the viewing experience is built around 24fps. Everything is done to complement 24fps.
I never understood why some people felt a talking-head vlog benefits by being "cinematic".
Underrated comment 😎
Interesting... Now you're making me go back through my videos and see if I can see it in my content . Maybe I'm just used to it? I notice more when a video is 30p then 24p😅
I think it loks like 24p should look. Your really have to pan very slow when shooting in 24p to make it smooth. I know that RED has some info about pan speeds on their homepage. For me 30fps looks to much like television/broadcast. On some MacBook Pros you can force the refresh rate to 48hz.
Maybe I'm just seeing things because I've been looking at the same shots for way too long 🤔
@@JorisHermans hehe, but I understand what you mean and 24p can be choppy for sure. Especially when played on a monitor not supporting 24p playback. I still think its better than 30p but you have to me careful with panning to fast :)
@@JorisHermans Watched in again and I think its looks good. And it looks like its handheld so a little shaky is expected.
I tried both 24fps and 30fps when I first started making videos….. and I completely preferred 30fps. The only time I ever used 24fps after that was when I needed to use a second camera for a client shoot and that second camera was limited to 4k 24fps. So I shot everything in 24fps to maintain consistency. 30fps any day.
I started with 24 as well, now all my videos stick to 30, cause I think why not an extra 6 frames for a little bit smoothness.
@@PhotoStory. exactly......people claiming 24 is cinematic is a bit of a cliche......I know people who use 24 fps just because they heard it's cinematic from youtube videos.....without understanding what it even means
@@VictorEdemSetordjie i think it has a lot to do with intent. 24p communicates cinema almost instantly. Lighting composition and such contribute to cinema if it's filmed in 24frames. Otherwise, a well lit, well composed scene shot at 30p looks like a soap opera. Nothing wrong with it. But people look at it and say, "why does it look like that?" And they know nothing about cinema, they just know it looks different than what they are used to seeing. Did you intend for what you shot to have a soap opera look and feel?? Who knows? I know a ton of rookie cameramen who shoot 24p only because they were told to do so. They have no clue about how to use it intentionally, or what to communicate through that 24p framerate. With all that said, I can't wait for the results!
Agreed! 30FPS is the way to go! I’ve tried 24 but no, 30 is the way to go!
@@GoodGuysMedia I’m in the minority that actually kinda likes soap opera effect.
I'm not an expert but on Sony cameras, 30 FPS is reserved for NTSC and 24 or 25 FPS are reserved for PAL. I've seen someone shooting in 30 FPS in PAL region (Europe) and all the lights were flickering. So, seems like it won't be possible to use 30 FPS on a PAL region and get good results, and we in Europe are stuck with at least 25 FPS. Any thoughts?
You can shoot 30fps in Europe without any problems. You just need to set the shutter to 1/50th instead of 1/60th. That's what causes the flicker. Here's a handy tool to calculate flicker-free combinations: www.red.com/flicker-free-video
And (24) 23.98 is for video with NTSC compatibility. 25/50 and 100 are PAL.
Hey @@JorisHermans that's very useful! Checking this now. Thanks a lot! :)
I might also move to 30fps, im not sure why suddenly premiere pro is being choppy when I try to add files to my 23.976 sequence in 4k with the correct 23.976 video in 4k shot with the sony zve10. I got a ton of videos right now that I shot the whole day and I cannot make it work as expected in premiere pro right now. When I try to export it, it is smooth. I don't know!
Hey Joris, what about using optical flow for some of the shots done in 24fps? I know that you mentioned the issue is not when editing , but with TH-cam conversion , but I’ve been experimenting with optical flow during editing when I perceive some potential for jittery and it seems smooth as butter when uploaded and seen on TH-cam
Yeah, the thing is, my current macbook pro can't handle optical flow 😅
@@JorisHermans I know what you mean, same here. Optical flow is quite heavy. I usually render the clip only so that I can play 😅… but that is on Davinci Resolve.. not sure other NLEs
Let's hope I'll be able to save up for a Mac Studio fast! 😉
Yes 24 frames per second is really just a stubborn anachronistic holdout at this point. Well I have no idea if TH-cam does pulldowns even if it does pans are always going to be choppy if you’re too fast I mean that’s rule number one when shooting a lower frame rate is you have to do your pans very slowly, so if like you said you’re trying to shoot anyway you want panning as fast as you want at any given time then yeah dude guess what the you’re hitting the limitations of 24 fps thus requiring you to use higher frame rates to get smooth motion. Generally most savvy producers shoot for the delivery system that they’re going to be on so if you’re going to be actually in a theater where it is 24 frames per second and it makes sense to shoot that but if you’re shooting for something that’s going to be on TH-cam viewed on cell phone screens computer screens that are usually either 30 to 60 to 120 frames per second than you really should be shooting at at least 30 and if you have a lot of motion then you should be shooting at 60.
I thought I was crazy for this exact reason, well not knowing the technical stuff, but seeing the jittery footage at 24 fps. I’ve been shooting 30 fps for my entire time because I see it as smoother. I shoot at 1/60th, for most things but I’ve been starting to use 1/50th by accident. I needed to brighten up my drone footage with ND filter on it and ended up liking the little bit extra motion blurr I got. So in my opinion I prefer 30 fps and depending on situation I mix between the two shutter speeds. I just couldn’t understand why everyone liked 24fps so much when to me it looked so shitty!
Exactly that's what I'm saying bro, people in discord calling me names and getting mad at me because I said I use 60fps and why should I use 24fps when it's choppy and the frame rate is slow. It's like "hello" yall do realize 24fps is slow
@@rack_9 Don’t they always teach to film with the output in mind. If 24fps looks like shit on TH-cam and your a TH-camr shouldn’t you produce videos that look there best on TH-cam. Not cinema frame rate. Idk seems to make sense to me but your right there’s a lot of people who will only shoot 24fps and nothing else. I still like 30 fps shoot at 1/50th of a sec a balance of both worlds a tiny bit more motion blur but proper play back on TH-cam.
@@exposureseries3747 Never been to film school, so don’t know. Historically, 24 fps was the cinema rate established in the industry 100 years ago as a combination of acceptable quality and film stock economy, for most commercial principal photography and some theater projection (16mm was also used in distribution for greater economy, even when the work was created in 35mm). Now that fps is no longer a fixed standard for cameras, NLE and video projection, aren’t we free to create what looks best to us and our clients? I agree that if the client wants their work to look like X, then it’s our job as commercial content creators to give them what they want, or pass on the work.
In pre-production, I show some client a suggested look and some alternative looks, and they must be the ones to choose the look. I want happy and paying clients to refer me more of the same, right? So, if a client sees more judder from a sample 24fps work on the TH-cam platform, and tells me the judder is not a big deal because the get what they think is a more cinematic look (I know, I know), then hey it’s their money. As for me and my taste buds, I focus on production qualities for “cinematic“ values, not frame rates, focal lengths or depth of focus.
Looking forward, it just makes sense to produce at an fps rate compatible with current and likely future monitor refresh rates. That means 30fps judder far less than 24 on the current 60fps monitors in use. Tomorrow, 90, 120 and 240 may become the new standard, which will be fine because I shoot and create in 30, a prime factor of all likely future monitor refresh rates. 24 is not, and will judder into the foreseeable future.
@@jimveybe7689 your correct, creators need to create art in response to which viewing experiences the audience will see their work.
For low light log shooting 24fps 1/48>50 completely destroys 60fps 1/120. The shadow grain is harsh at 60fps even with high end cameras.
I'm no pro at these things, but I can see the stutter in those segments, keen to know what your answer was.
i record in 25fps because thats the only 4k mode in my pal camera. lmao. unless i switch to ntsc then i get 24 and 30. i agree i notice stutters in 24fps, which could be because i leave the shutter speed on auto, so its probably the shutter speed too high. but overall people dont care and i feel im just overreacting to something viewers didnt care or notice. so i just ignore it and focus on the content.
I can't stand panning shots in 24fps. That includes pro made ones, like in hollywood movies. I also think typical "cinematic" stuff (24fps, dull desaturated colors, orange teal and so on) works for storytelling over 1-3 hours, and not at all for nature, sports, travel or music videos.
I shot some boxing and Muay Thai videos in 24fps and it looked terrible. WAY too much motion blur and it looked choppy and jerky.
Filmmakers in the past would have killed for 60 fps. They only shot in 24 because it woulda been super expensive w real film
So why do they still shoot every movie (except a few) in 24? 😁
@@JorisHermans like u said. Brainwashed. And still editing 60 fps takes more work when it comes to special fx. The more frames the more work u have to do. The more work the computer has to do as well.
Nice topic! Now a question, for people like you and me in EU how can we shot in 30 fps without flicker? Keep shutter speed around 1/50 or?
Can you say if the fps or shutter count wil cost flicker?
Yep, 1/50th won't cause flicker in Europe. Here's a useful tool to calculate flicker free combinations: www.red.com/flicker-free-video
Rambalac shoots 4K 60fps 1/100
Does this apply to instagram?
Very interested to see this. Jevon Dovey did a video about this which also got me curious. And yes, I’ve had the jitters as well. Keep ‘em coming, Joris. 24 or 30, you’re content is always great 👍🏻
And actually I wonder... Since most screens are 60hz there has to be that 3:2 or 2:3 pulldown, right? So what you see is not 24fps but actually more like 30 right? So can you actually see the difference between 24 and 30fps when using a shutter of 1/50th for both? Some say 30fps doesn't look as 'cinematic' but maybe it's just the shutter of 1/60th when using the 180° rule... 🤔🤯 Edit: I have my next video! I'll do the test!
@@JorisHermans exactly. When watching TH-cam on my tv I honestly cannot see any difference apart from jitters sometimes Maybe it’s my 👀 I don’t know but would be very interested in the comments.
I've been filming in 30fps because of the same problem, the first time you see those jitters and stutters in your screen you can't put your attention to the story and cinematic experience.
For me, 24 is overrated.
30 is the best because you don't get the jitters and stutters without sacrificing the "cinematicness" in your films (we're talking about a difference of only 6 frames, 30 still looks cinematic).
How do they do with movies at 24fps and they pan, and shot in high speed movements?
Well, I'm not at all an expert but they know how fast they can pan before the judder happens. Then again, you can't pan super slow all the time so I guess they try to avoid those medium fast pans where the effect is most noticeable... But again, I'm just guessing here...
After decades of being exposed to high framerate PC games, and using high refresh rate displays, 24hz always seems kind of stuttery to me. Even in cinemas! Pans and drone shots show significant juddering to a trained eye. 30fps makes everything look more natural and smooth, while still preserving a "cinematic" look.
I agree with this 💯
Nah, fam. 90's soap opera is more like it.
I shoot 30fps for all my YT videos. I find it is better if I need to apply color corrections as well
"I even dream in 24 FPS..." 🤣🤣👏👏.
This was really insightful Joris - thanks so much for sharing. I look forward to seeing if you like 30FPS 🤘
What are jitter and stutter? Are we sure that they are really videography terms? I can't find explanations about stutter and people corrected others by naming it judder instead of jitter.
Jitter judder stutter, I'm not a native English speaker so no idea what the correct word is 😁
@@JorisHermans Me too Joris, that's why we struggling sometimes on technical terms. By the way while i catch you here, i am waiting more tutorials bro. Like your old lightning setup videos. Have a nice day bro.
Use handbreak, i know what you mean it is so annoying the stutter. I convert it to 60hz and lower the size of the video. Works better now!
Well, living in a PAL region the whole discussion is moot anyway because shooting at 30 fps, you will get VERY REAL FLICKERING from a lot of LED lights. Any jitters that may result from mismatching framerates (which I’ve never noticed) aren’t nearly as bad as the kind of flicker that will ruin any footage. And at least from my experience trying flicker reduction in camera and deflicker in Resolve, you often end up running into issues that those tools can’t resolve. So 25 fps it is for me.
Have you tried 25fps? You might find most of the issues you experienced are gone. 24fps for TH-cam is not good.
Nope but I will! 🙏🏻
@@JorisHermans i bet all your problems will go away and it is so close to 24fps that you retain the “cinematic” look and feel. Basically, nobody will be able to tell the difference, but the actual footage looks smooth… I started my YT channel recording by at 24 but after 2 videos I realised YT was doing something funny to it. Switched to 25fps and voilà.
I shoot travel videos for yt and I always shoot 60fps coz it looks so real. I am even not comfortable with 30!
Once I accidentally shot at 30 and regretted it later coz you can see the jitter in fast pans.
Even in the theatre when I see the jitter I'm like it's high time to move on from 24 fps!
60p doesn't look too real with 1/60 shutter...it is 60p with 180 degree 1/120 shutter that is way too smooth looking.
@@paulanderegg5536 right. I shoot with 1/120 shutter
@@paulanderegg5536 How do you explain "way too smooth" ? 60FPS looks great and natural. Look at the world by your eyes - can you see any choppy stuff ? The answer is NO. When you shoot 30fps and pan you get choppy trouble. 60FPS - FOREVER.
Absolutely right! 60fps is the BEST - very very natural. The thing is to use ND filter to maintain 180 degree rule for shutter
@@VASILASIS Totally agree!!!
Cool and thanks from Switzerland
Loving to find out you are belgian as well ❤❤❤❤❤ I follow you and I did not know until now.
🇧🇪🍻
TH-cam and other platforms should not modify any video or audio. I dont like what they are doing, 99% of the cases the video and audio gets much much worse.
yeah, and anyway, if you share it on socials it gets quite choppy as the native frame rate on socials is 30fps. so basically IG, Tiktok double every 4th frame. Awful... I shoot everything in 30fps.
TH-cam doesn't do anything. 24 fps or 23.976 fps videos look choppy because you’re watching it on a display with a refresh rate of 60 hz or above. So you see some double frames
Weer een nederlands kwaliteitskanaal! Awesome!
30p does seem to be easiest to create and digest for me personally.
It's the standard for broadcast TV and Journalistic Documentaries.
25p/25p does look pleasing for cinematic movies, but most videos on YT are not movies, they are talking head videos and general nonsense so there is really no point in the slower cinematic frame rates for those.
So sit back and relax with 30p and if you have a lot of fast action in your videos, bump up to 60p for those.
Nah, 24 fps (or 23.976) is elite.
I prefer to shoot in 50 to 60 fps and save it in 30fps so it’s super smooth and has a great cinematic look and it works really good when u have anything in slow motion💪
💯
Are you using the 180degree rule?
24fps for cinematic. 30fps+ for other types of video. Nothing feels as cinematic or as dramatic as 24fps.
We only film in 24fps because we make serious and realistic videos. If we were making TH-cam videos or using videos for documenting (not a 'documentary') something visually we'd use 30fps+.
If you want that movie feel, nothing is better than 24fps.
Super interesting Video!
My phone has adaptive refresh rate so if a video is 24 fps my phone screen will only refresh 24 times per second. I don't think the problem with 60 hz screens will apply here. It also helps with battery life too.
What camera did you use to shoot this video?
Sony A7S III
For better result and more smooth and cinematic shoot in 60 frame. The technical words for those stutters and jitters are FREEZE FRAME. Guys in Hollywood are familiar with that.
And one more thing... Edit in 30 frame.
To be honest I got the same problem,when I was shooting videos with my drone in 4k/24 fps on my phone screen everything was fine,but when I was checking again on my computer I was pretty much angry with all the jitters and stutters,so yeah,I understand you brother
It's so annoying! 😭
Does your phone have a 120Hz display by any chance? And does your computer have a 60Hz monitor?
You should have uploaded it on April first. 🤣
Good one Joris. I'll look into the subject. 🤔
would still edit the project in 24fps project or change it to a 30fps sequence?
30 fps project
what if you shoot in 3fps but edit in 24fps timeline and then export and upload in 24fps? I saw someone using 30fps on a 24fps timeline with 80% speed and it looked amazing.
Sure, it's basically slow-motion 🤷🏻♂️ so if you don't need sound and you like the look, go for it...
@@JorisHermanswhat if I recorded at 60fps and need sound, what should I do?
What about Google Play movies that are played on TH-cam. Aren't they 24 fps or were they also converted to 30 fps?
Well, 99% of all movies are shot in 24fps so when displayed on standard 60hz screens there always has to be a conversion I think 🤔
@@JorisHermans Though monitors have varying refresh rates to include numbers like 45 and 15 and 75. And then for gaming monitors there is adaptive sync and 144 Hz. Somehow things would have to be designed to work in all combinations (not all combinations being ideal). But yes if there is a 2-3 pull down going from 24 fps to 60 fps, then 30 fps would be better for 60 Hz monitors.
There’s a difference between fps and screen refresh rate. The comment stating that TH-cam displays in 30fps is wrong. It does any framerate you want (unlike Facebook and Instagram, they do convert everything to 30fps.)
@@simonbaerts still 3:2 pull down has to occur to display 24 on a 60hz screen. Whether it's yt, media player or monitor doesn't matter.
@@JorisHermansNot sure if this is what actually happens, but doing the math: Every 4 frames in a 24 fps sequence is equal to 5 frames in a 30 fps sequence. Every 2 frames in a 24 fps sequence is equal to 5 frames in a 60 fps sequence. The best conversion is when each frame in 24 fps sequence is evenly distributed in the higher fps sequence.
If you convert from 24 fps to 30 fps, the cleanest way to do it is to make every 5th frame (in the 30 fps version) a duplicate of the 4th frame. Then if that is converted to 60 fps, then each frame gets doubled, so that frames 1 to 3 in the 24 fps sequence gets 2 frames, while frame 4 gets 4 frames. This means every 4/24 = 1/6 seconds, you perceive a frame that is twice as long as the rest.
When converting directly from 24 fps to 60 fps, the frames can be more evenly distributed, such that frame 1 in the 24 fps sequence gets 2 frames in the 60 fps sequence, and frame 2 gets 3 frames. This means every other perceived frame, 1/12 seconds, you get a perceived frame that is 3/2 = 1.5 times longer than the one before.
So I think a 1.5 times magnitude modulation in time running at 12 Hz is less noticeable than a 2 times magnitude modulation at 6 Hz. The question is whether YT actually converts everything to 30 fps before converting to 60 fps, or whether it can display frame rates in between. The fact that odd frame rates like 48 fps and 50 fps actually shows up in the Quality options suggests the latter, but this would need to be verified. I think converting to an intermediate frame rate before going to the final frame rate is less efficient and if YT has well optimized their video processing, they would avoid this.
I cant wait to see what your thoughts are after the month is up. I have thought about this multiple times
I literally read this as he said it!
Great content as usual. Fair point, but Im tot really a fan of how 30fps looks when trying to get that cinematic look which I prefer. Anyways I love the hue of your RBG light, please share how I can achieve it. thanks
It's just a blue RGB light set at hue 200 but I think it's the color of the wall that's more important. Google Granite Peak SW 6250 from Sherwin-Williams paints for the exact color 😉
@@JorisHermans thank you for the information and the speedy reply. It looks 👌👌👌
You are all right, TH-cam destroy the video Quality, To avoid that a little bit I shot on 60 FPS, 1/50 when camera is moving. Even so 4k video is destroyed by TH-cam system.
U can't use 1/50 with 60p. The minimum will be 1/60
There's nothing inherently right or wrong with 24 fps. It simply a standard that closely resembles realistic motion that all studios agreed upon back in the early development of film. Before that, we got the jumpiness seen frequently in the old silent Charlie Chaplin films.
Thing is, film wasn't developed for TV which came long after and uses a 60 hertz display (in the U.S.). The two technologies were incompatible so a compromise had to be made known as the 2/3 pulldown.
A device call a telecine is used to turn the 24 fps film into a 60 hz (50 hz in Europe) signal for display. There's just no enough information to fill the gap so some frames have to be repeated. The problem is 24 won't divide evenly, and that causes an issue. The reason for that is because 24 fps was originally developed to be shown in theaters long before it was adapted for TV and its electronic transmission.
It is during fast pans where where a lot of information flows past the screen that jitter becomes most noticeable. Sometimes it cause an optical confusion that your brain can detect, and you may have to momentarily look away. I get way during the opening pan across the township in The Incredible Hulk movie (2008). Better to just do away with 24 fps at this point, and switch to 30 fps which is virtually imperceptible. I'd avoid 60 fps unless absolutely necessary for fast action/sports.
I film in 4k 60fps after that I edit the footages in 4k 24fps, why? Suddenly I like some part and I wanted to put in slow motion I don't to worry "ohh I forgot to put my camera in 60fps" I think 30fps is good but 60 or 120fps are the best codec you can get in films to have any choice in editing. Cheers
Problem is that the motion blur doesn't look natural that way 😕
Thanks for the many comments, but does anyone know why there is still PAL for 25/50/100 fps and NTSC for 24/30/60/120? Why is it not possible just to select the fps and shutter I want? Is there anything else what is modified if I switch from PAL and NTSC to get 30 fps?
Supposedly PAL has better image quality because it has 625 horizontal lines but I think that was mainly a thing in the analogue years. In today's digital video content I doubt if that's even noticeable or even relevant 🤔
@@JorisHermans Yes, PAL/NTSC was needed in old times to separate the different resolutions and fps but today everything is 720p/1080/4K and the question was why do I have to switch between the 2 modes. For example my Sony A7S3 can do 25 fps but if I want to switch to 30 I have first to change the camera to NTSC mode and in a second step can change the frame rate. Wyh is it not possible just to switch between 24/25/30/50/60 etc. why is the extra and inconvenient step to switch NTSC/PAL needed?
Maybe someone knows if there are other changes in the background?
@@andreaswening I think it's a matter of not overwhelming the user with too many options. Obviously experts want the full list without having to change the region, but lots of cameras are marketed to beginners and intermediates.
My videos in 4k 25fps with SOny zv-1 are so laggy :(
I noticed it too.. i am slowly transitioning to 30 fps,and go back sometimes to see the difference
this is why i stopped doing 24 fps on youtube it just doesnt look as smooth depending on the content. so i do 30 fps or 60 for smooth zooms and pans and etc (i have multiple channels)