A constant throughout F1 is that a parent company being overly involved in the running of its F1 team, and trying to run it as another part of their business, doesn’t end well
Exactly why Red Bull have been so successful, and Mercedes for that matter. The big bosses hired people who know what they're doing, and let them cook.
It's interesting that Toyota is doing so well in endurance racing, considering how badly their F1 approach went. Audi did a similar thing. Controlling the approach the team takes seems to work better in Le Mans than F1. Maybe its because there's more crossover between a Le Mans car and a road car than an F1 car, in terms of what elements are important. Endurance Racing is a slower paced sport in terms of development, so reams have time to test parts fully over a long lead time. F1, you kinda need to gamble more, as the development window between races is weeks or days, rather than months. In automotive industry things are conservative and planned BMW set out their plan in 2006 , that 2007 would be 'get points', 2008 would be "Win a race" and then 2009 would be "win title". Its a good approach for a system where you Control the process. But F1 isn't controllable. You could have the best car ever, but someone else takes you out and you have just as much as if you never started. Motor Racing is a gamble from a marketing perspective.
@@georgebull-mclean3333 Reason why Toyota are so successful in sports cars is because they learnt their lesson from their F1 programme, Toyota Motorsport Group are now much more separate and autonomous and its due to the lessons learned in the 2000s. I wonder if they'll ever return and how they'd fare with this setup....
It's always been crazy to me that Toyota spent so much over the years and never went anywhere with it in terms of really climbing up the ranks of constructors to the point that when they attempted to sign Kimi between his Ferrari and Lotus periods, his response was apparently "make a race winning car" alongside the want for a higher salary. Toyota also never won a race in their time in the sport as both a constructor or engine supplier.
You can understand why after the huge opportunity that was 2009, big regulation shake up to put all that budget FINALLY to use, Toyota decided to pull the plug. The team just wasn't built well enough to achieve what they wanted, combined with the senior Toyota personnel's constant interference.
Toyota messed up after 2005 when they went to Bridgestone tires from Michelin for advertising reasons and not performance reasons and it ruined any momentum they had from 2005 They wasted any hope of a race winning car they might have had plus the awful strategy at Bahrain 2009 The 2005 and 2009 Toyotas I would say are the second and third cars not to win a race in the 2000s (if you want my list lmao I would say the top 5 cars not to win a race in the 2000s) 2004 BAR 2009 Toyota 2005 Toyota 2006 McLaren 2007 BMW
@@TommoMcCluskey Yeah, 2009 wouldn't have been too confidence inspiring for them outside of the handful of podiums at the beginning and end while getting outshined by a drink and a car bought for $1. I will say though that the last 2 years were a vast improvement over the beginning of the V8 era for them, but I feel that would have been overlooked when comparing to their previous WRC and Le Mans efforts.
@@TommoMcCluskey IIRC Trulli said he had to win the Japanese GP that year to save the F1 group and had he won that race they wouldn't have pulled the plug What could it have been if it wasn't for a young Vettel dominating at his favourite track in the whole world
At the time, I really liked the rosso corsa version of the Ferrari livery, but today I would probably rank the Toro Rosso, BMW Sauber and ING Renault in no particular order as my top three from that season.
Force India could have had big points from the P4 or P5 finish in Monaco if Kimi didn't punt Adrian Sutil into the shadow realm a few laps from the finish. What a heartbreaking moment that was.
A lot of people seem to forget that he was due a time penalty due to overtaking several cars under yellow flags earlier in the race. Chances are he would’ve finished outside the points.
I'm not surprised, those cars were engineered to the limit. I doubt they'd be able to fit any more wings if they tried. Beautiful cars though, definitely the most beautiful ones in recent history imo
Excellent point about the sponsors back then versus the sponsors we have now. As a non European, I had to Google if Vodafone still existed yesterday since they no longer had any iconic sposorships
The reason bmw pulled development on 2008 was because they had a masterplan (not the Ferrari one but equally as bad) to win a race in 08 and then the title in 09. So once they had a win, they abandoned the rest of the season. And still kubica drove his heart out, he was only 12 points behind Hamilton with 2 races to go. For reference raikkonen was 17 points behind at the same point in 07 and won the title
I wonder what went through Seb's mind when he outscored Red Bull who was the destination for him. Worked brilliantly in the end but wonder if he had doubts about joining for 09
That's the thing, even without that win. Say Seb finished that race last, TR still would have finished LEVEL with RB. I guess having two teams means you can test more concepts, fail more in the short term to learn more in the long run?
@@TommoMcCluskey I think it's possible that red bull sank a lot to 2009 early, as they LEAPT forwards to runners up in 2009, while Toro Rosso stayed at the back
Totally agree with your point towards the end about the sponsors being crap nowadays, i dont drink or smoke but the cars looked so much better with alcohol and cigarette brands on them😂
Interesting, I've never cared about sponsors. I have no idea why Panasonic or Vodafone are more exciting than any other sponsor, really. As long as the teams have the money to keep F1 going, I'm happy.
The 2008 cars were so beautiful That chrome Mclaren, The super white BMW, The Renault 🔥🔥🔥 Perhaps you could make a video with 2023 car designs but switch up the sponsors and how they’d look The 2023 shape and colours but with old school sponsors/sponsors we haven’t seen yet on an F1 car
@@TommoMcCluskey Would love to see that, The chrome Mclaren 😍😍 Perhaps some of the newer teams could be traced back to their old days too (like Alfa Romeo/Sauber could feature the BMW/Sauber livery) and Alpine could be chosen from Renault liveries. Haas will just be Haas lol
@@TommoMcCluskey what a great idea. i love and much prefer the clean shape of new cars (still hate how big they are) but always thought old liveries were better. would be epic to see old sponsors adjusted on new cars
Only bad thing about 2008 season (unless you are Massa's fan) was the early death of Super Aguri. They were such a charming little team. Also, it was the only season Toro Rosso finished ahead of Red Bull and only time in history that Ferrari's customer team won a race. It really was a great year.
Glock wanted to pit but was told to stay out. It started raining more and he really wanted to pit but was told to stay. Sure enough he was like driving on ice with slicks in the rain and slowed hella down with just corners left to the checkered flag, Massa wins the race and the 2008 championship, then “Is that Glock?!” going slow and Hamilton drives past and gets p5 or p6 or whatever and because he passed Glock, Massa was no longer the champion and it went to Ham. Massa’s dad and family celebrating and then he gets tapped on the shoulder with the same hand pointing to the broadcast and their faces were just.. ugh, hurt man. Massa is standing on the top step of the podium, race winner at his home race with tears of welling in his eyes is so heartbreaking. But the home support in Brazil and a crying Massa with him one handed pounding his chest is an image I’ll never forget. 1pt.. That’s the difference between being the last Tifosi Ferrari hero to “almost”.
Toyota - the most expensive failure in F1 history. Goes to show, corporate people need to back off and let racing people do racing things since they know what they're doing, not the corporate people. P.S. Their Panasonic red and white liveries were gorgeous. It had a champion's livery but riddled with corporate incompetence.
@@TommoMcCluskey yes sir! I remember one time in 2006, the design of the car was supposed to be for the Michelin tyres. But because Toyota wanted to move to Bridgestone (Japanese team with Japanese tyres) it prevented Toyota from progressing forward from their 4th place in 05. It was a decent car, but not as competitive as the 05 car.
Ironically if Honda hadn't pulled out Red Bull might've won the title in 2009. Honda would've turned up to the first test (which in reality Brawn missed) giving the other teams about an extra week to study their double diffuser. That would probably mean Honda lose their advantage a little bit earlier than Brawn actually did which could make all the difference
In the start of the season I was afraid Aston becomes a Toyota 2.0 in season 2005 (Jarno Trulli also got podiums in the first races). I hope this will not be the case.
Honestly, it's debatable whether Honda would have won the championship had they stayed for 2009. That Mercedes power in the back of the Brawn was trully a blessing for the team. Who knows if that Honda engine had the ability to compete with RB's Renault engine. It's a fun scenario to think about anyways.
I've often wondered about that. By 2008, I recall that Honda engine being decent, and it had been some time since the Mercedes engines were all conquering. One of F1's great "What if"s.
It's a fair point, although you have to wonder how they had to optimise that chassis to fit a Merc powerplant in. If at all right. A works engine optimised to a chassis probably put you in a better place no?
@@felixlueggerto Indeed. Differences in horsepower between the various engines in those days could be counted on two hands (and maybe a toe or two on your foot)
honda in 2008: spends approx. $561M and puts all the resources for the RA109 which would turn out to be the Brawn BGP-001 also honda in 2021: ya know what, we're leaving f1, goodbye not long after, in 2023: *WE'RE COMING BACK, BABY!* zero brain cells in f1, 2000IQ in the automotive industry: thats honda (basically)
In defense of Bourdais, he was very unlicky, he was running 4th in Australia before a mechanical DNF and he qualified 4th in Monza and he had problems at the start
But Tom in 2008 the figure was total cost of everything including PU. In 2023 the PU's cost in not considered in budget cap and 1PU cost nearly $10 M with teams nearly using 8 during season. That's $80 M.
The dirty air wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is now lmao, the cars could actually race each other back then (probably mostly helped by the smaller size and lower weight, as well as the fact that these cars had way less downforce than the cars today)
@@KimiButNoDrink McLaren developing a completely new car in 2013 because they didnt understand why the 2012 car was fast for it to be slower than the 2012 car was peak McLaren lol
And BMW were very rigid in their goals 2009 was meant to be the championship year not 2008 so once they got the race win the bosses stupidly thought job done Kubica was the best performing driver that year and with a car with more updates would have competed for the 08 championship
Personnally I think the 2008 cars are beautiful ! Some of the best even. I understand that many prefer the simpleer 1998-2004 cars but I don't know, I love them. And I don't know how McLaren could possibly spend that much ! No wonder they ended up in financial difficulties and fell from grace. And Honda... Oh Honda... The clowns of Formula 1. Retiring in 2008 when they had made the best car for 2009, then anouncing their retirement in 2020 for the end of 2021 where they finally win... Aston Martin must be praying that they don't decide to retire after 2 seaons in 2027 or something lol. I wouldn't even be surprised if Lawrence Stroll asked for a 4 years guarantee from them so they don't leave F1 at the next change of CEO
The cars from that era looked awful and had those stupid tires but they were so much smaller than today's cars . If you compare on a track like Monaco then the space that they have around them to move about is really noticeable. We dont realize how big these current f1 cars are . We need to find a way of making the cars smaller
Dr. Mario Theissen who was the team principal of BMW Sauber claimed their resources was more allocated to the 2008 car based on his Beyond The Grid podcast but Kubica did not believe him. Despite that, I still think it would have been very hard for both driver and team to win either championship...🤔🤔
@Tommo, my immediate response to your "Triple Crown McLaren livery ... is stunning" comment was "ARE YOU HIGH?!??" I feel it is ultra busy and not a patch on their one-off Gulf livery from 2021. Obviously this kind of thing is subjective, so play your own game on that one. Weirdly, despite not being a Toyota person (I've long held a belief that if you buy a Toyota, you've given up on life), I was disappointed when Toyota pulled out as it was finally coming together, and there were races in 2009 where they were credible chances for a win. Oh, and for all you Toyota owners out there; I feel like Toyota have woken up in the last few years and are actually designing exciting cars again. The issue I had with them was that their cars were the personification of bland for a good two decades. However, it was obviously a winning marketing strategy, so what the hell do I know?
Neil nooooo. TBF I do love colour blocking more than most, so that livery just hits my taste on the nose. Toyota are so hit and miss man, but then again they're the biggest car company in the world. Trying to be all things to all people, ain't easy. At least Lexus exists, I love a Lexus.
@@TommoMcCluskey Oh, I immediately saw the colour blocking which matched the classic Marlboro blocking, and was quietly impressed. But like I said, it's all a bit subjective and I clearly seem to be in the minority here, as I've seen nothing but praise. Actually, Lexus would be a good pull, and I could easily get behind a Lexus F1 team. I also wish Lexus would join the V8 Supercars (being Australian and all). Thanks for responding man. Much appreciated.
If you ask any team principle if they'd rather be p5 in the championship with a p2 and p3 or p6 in the championship with a win, what do you think they'd say? Even toro rosso finished ahead of toyota in my mind lol.
To be fair, Honda probably couldn’t have won the 2009 championship. Honda’s biggest weakness at that time was the mediocre Honda engine. Brawn striking a deal to use the Mercedes engine was crucial to their title win.
Actually insane that the team that finished P10 in the championship in 2008 spent 40 MILLION $$ more during that season than even the top teams are allowed to spend nowadays. Blows my mind a bit.
Baffling eh. I can only assume that a sizeable chunk of that budget was going into the 2009 Honda... which obviously became the Brawn. That's the only way that level of uncompetitiveness in 2008 is remotely justifiable.
It doesn't always work out having a works team, ask Toyota, BMW and Ford. BMW came the closest during the V8 era and could've been champions if they didn't focus on developing the next seasons car after McLaren were disqualified.
Hamilton was champion, Massa is my champion, but everyone knows Kubica was the best driver that year. Argue with a wall because I don’t need to justify.
imagine rog or razer logo on a mercedes louis vuitton on the ferrari that would look sick rather than those crypto stuff. then you have haas with a pringles logo that would be hilarious.
If Honda had ran their 2009 car how they developed it (i.e. with a Honda engine not a Mercedes engine) then they wouldn't have done nearly as well as they did, Nick Fry has said that the Mercedes engine was one of the main reasons they were so much quicker
Correct me if I’m wrong, the 2009 Brawn chassis was from Honda, but the double-diffuser was introduced by Ross Brawn. Thus, the greatest advantage of that car might have not been present if Honda kept on managing the team.
Honda probably would've lost the 2009 championship because their engine was appalling, without the mercedes ilmor in the back that car might not even win a race
"ugly"?? Bro, were you watching an entirely different sport? 2008 produced probably some of the best looking cars of all time. This HAD to have been sarcasm
Would like to see one of those videos for some seasons closer to today, like let's say during the Red Bull Vettel dominated era and the Mercedes dominated era. Because there are people who are of the opinion that Mercedes was only on top because they out-spent everyone like crazy. While I know this is not true whatsoever (there are articles about it) it would be nice to see someone with a bigger voice show how things actually were in those days.
@@TommoMcCluskey It's easy to say in hindsight. But I didn't see the value in Cripto and NFTs back then. Maybe it's autism, but for me everything has to have a visible value. :P
Anyone else notice that Red Bull AND Toro Rosso's combined budget was STILL lower than like 6 other teams...
Correction: I know it's not really the reason for the video etc. but Obama ran for president in 2008 but didn't take office until January 2009
Must not include catering
A constant throughout F1 is that a parent company being overly involved in the running of its F1 team, and trying to run it as another part of their business, doesn’t end well
Exactly why Red Bull have been so successful, and Mercedes for that matter. The big bosses hired people who know what they're doing, and let them cook.
It's interesting that Toyota is doing so well in endurance racing, considering how badly their F1 approach went. Audi did a similar thing. Controlling the approach the team takes seems to work better in Le Mans than F1. Maybe its because there's more crossover between a Le Mans car and a road car than an F1 car, in terms of what elements are important. Endurance Racing is a slower paced sport in terms of development, so reams have time to test parts fully over a long lead time. F1, you kinda need to gamble more, as the development window between races is weeks or days, rather than months. In automotive industry things are conservative and planned BMW set out their plan in 2006 , that 2007 would be 'get points', 2008 would be "Win a race" and then 2009 would be "win title". Its a good approach for a system where you Control the process. But F1 isn't controllable. You could have the best car ever, but someone else takes you out and you have just as much as if you never started.
Motor Racing is a gamble from a marketing perspective.
That’s what’s happening with Alpine now
Tell that to any Ferrari fan. They will tell you Enzo had every right to bend his team principals over the desk whenever he wanted to
@@georgebull-mclean3333 Reason why Toyota are so successful in sports cars is because they learnt their lesson from their F1 programme, Toyota Motorsport Group are now much more separate and autonomous and its due to the lessons learned in the 2000s. I wonder if they'll ever return and how they'd fare with this setup....
It's always been crazy to me that Toyota spent so much over the years and never went anywhere with it in terms of really climbing up the ranks of constructors to the point that when they attempted to sign Kimi between his Ferrari and Lotus periods, his response was apparently "make a race winning car" alongside the want for a higher salary. Toyota also never won a race in their time in the sport as both a constructor or engine supplier.
You can understand why after the huge opportunity that was 2009, big regulation shake up to put all that budget FINALLY to use, Toyota decided to pull the plug. The team just wasn't built well enough to achieve what they wanted, combined with the senior Toyota personnel's constant interference.
Toyota messed up after 2005 when they went to Bridgestone tires from Michelin for advertising reasons and not performance reasons and it ruined any momentum they had from 2005
They wasted any hope of a race winning car they might have had plus the awful strategy at Bahrain 2009
The 2005 and 2009 Toyotas I would say are the second and third cars not to win a race in the 2000s
(if you want my list lmao I would say the top 5 cars not to win a race in the 2000s)
2004 BAR
2009 Toyota
2005 Toyota
2006 McLaren
2007 BMW
@@TommoMcCluskey Yeah, 2009 wouldn't have been too confidence inspiring for them outside of the handful of podiums at the beginning and end while getting outshined by a drink and a car bought for $1. I will say though that the last 2 years were a vast improvement over the beginning of the V8 era for them, but I feel that would have been overlooked when comparing to their previous WRC and Le Mans efforts.
@@TommoMcCluskey IIRC Trulli said he had to win the Japanese GP that year to save the F1 group and had he won that race they wouldn't have pulled the plug
What could it have been if it wasn't for a young Vettel dominating at his favourite track in the whole world
youre not wrong tommo, so many iconic liveries in 2008 - panasonic denso toyota and chrome coloured vodaphone mclarens are def the pick of the bunch
Hopefully next season, with all the teams down to the weight limit now, they'll bring back some COLOUR.
At the time, I really liked the rosso corsa version of the Ferrari livery, but today I would probably rank the Toro Rosso, BMW Sauber and ING Renault in no particular order as my top three from that season.
Force India could have had big points from the P4 or P5 finish in Monaco if Kimi didn't punt Adrian Sutil into the shadow realm a few laps from the finish. What a heartbreaking moment that was.
Damn :(
And these points could've place Force India above Honda in the efficiency table here.
A lot of people seem to forget that he was due a time penalty due to overtaking several cars under yellow flags earlier in the race. Chances are he would’ve finished outside the points.
I'm not surprised, those cars were engineered to the limit. I doubt they'd be able to fit any more wings if they tried. Beautiful cars though, definitely the most beautiful ones in recent history imo
Ugly beautiful
@@TommoMcCluskey those BMWs are beautiful
Personally I preferred the 2017-2021 cars, they just looked so cool and stealthy and fast pahaha
@@TommoMcCluskey Rocketship beautiful.
The MP4-22 in its Monza spec might be the prettiest car in F1 history
Loved the 2005-08 cars
I still find it funny how despite getting hit with the $100M fine after spygate, McLaren still managed to increase their budget for 2008.
Chrome money
I think a good portion of that fine was paid by Mercedes
Excellent point about the sponsors back then versus the sponsors we have now. As a non European, I had to Google if Vodafone still existed yesterday since they no longer had any iconic sposorships
Even on V8 Supercars, they were iconic. Need to head down to my local branch and have a word.
The reason bmw pulled development on 2008 was because they had a masterplan (not the Ferrari one but equally as bad) to win a race in 08 and then the title in 09. So once they had a win, they abandoned the rest of the season. And still kubica drove his heart out, he was only 12 points behind Hamilton with 2 races to go. For reference raikkonen was 17 points behind at the same point in 07 and won the title
RBS sponsoring Williams in 2008 got me opening a bank account with them in 2015
I'd say that's money well spent😂
Same, fellow RBSer (as a child anyway) here
That logo was just symbiotic with the car it's marvelous
The Williams car comes up whenever I see that logo❤️
I wonder what went through Seb's mind when he outscored Red Bull who was the destination for him. Worked brilliantly in the end but wonder if he had doubts about joining for 09
That's the thing, even without that win. Say Seb finished that race last, TR still would have finished LEVEL with RB. I guess having two teams means you can test more concepts, fail more in the short term to learn more in the long run?
@@TommoMcCluskey He certainly was a talent you build the team around with his performance immediately
@@TommoMcCluskey I think it's possible that red bull sank a lot to 2009 early, as they LEAPT forwards to runners up in 2009, while Toro Rosso stayed at the back
Totally agree with your point towards the end about the sponsors being crap nowadays, i dont drink or smoke but the cars looked so much better with alcohol and cigarette brands on them😂
Martini Williams was simple but beautiful, a bit sad that it was never a championship winning car
Couldnt tell you what most the brands on f1 cars even make/do anymore.
Interesting, I've never cared about sponsors. I have no idea why Panasonic or Vodafone are more exciting than any other sponsor, really. As long as the teams have the money to keep F1 going, I'm happy.
The 2008 cars were so beautiful
That chrome Mclaren, The super white BMW, The Renault 🔥🔥🔥
Perhaps you could make a video with 2023 car designs but switch up the sponsors and how they’d look
The 2023 shape and colours but with old school sponsors/sponsors we haven’t seen yet on an F1 car
Yeah that'd be sick for real. Maybe take the 2023 chassis of every team, but apply their best livery of all time to it? A modernised version.
@@TommoMcCluskey Would love to see that, The chrome Mclaren 😍😍
Perhaps some of the newer teams could be traced back to their old days too (like Alfa Romeo/Sauber could feature the BMW/Sauber livery) and Alpine could be chosen from Renault liveries.
Haas will just be Haas lol
@@TommoMcCluskey what a great idea. i love and much prefer the clean shape of new cars (still hate how big they are) but always thought old liveries were better. would be epic to see old sponsors adjusted on new cars
The renault was horrible
Only bad thing about 2008 season (unless you are Massa's fan) was the early death of Super Aguri. They were such a charming little team.
Also, it was the only season Toro Rosso finished ahead of Red Bull and only time in history that Ferrari's customer team won a race.
It really was a great year.
At the time I remember a lot of talk being "why didn't Honda save them??". We saw why by season end...
Kubica's lapse due to Sauber's underdevelopment was also kind of disappointing considering how strong of a season start he had.
I love the early V8 cars, the aero devices on those cars is mental. It really looks like spaceships on wheels.
Tommo once again ruthlessly trying to charm us with a cute sausage dog! Shouldn't be allowed, this is outrageous😤😤😂
Did it work? 😅
Such a great idea for the video! Absolutely love it tommo. Hope you make one about the 2009 brawn season soon. Would love to get more insight.
Appreciate that Aaryan!
Glock wanted to pit but was told to stay out. It started raining more and he really wanted to pit but was told to stay. Sure enough he was like driving on ice with slicks in the rain and slowed hella down with just corners left to the checkered flag, Massa wins the race and the 2008 championship, then “Is that Glock?!” going slow and Hamilton drives past and gets p5 or p6 or whatever and because he passed Glock, Massa was no longer the champion and it went to Ham. Massa’s dad and family celebrating and then he gets tapped on the shoulder with the same hand pointing to the broadcast and their faces were just.. ugh, hurt man. Massa is standing on the top step of the podium, race winner at his home race with tears of welling in his eyes is so heartbreaking. But the home support in Brazil and a crying Massa with him one handed pounding his chest is an image I’ll never forget. 1pt.. That’s the difference between being the last Tifosi Ferrari hero to “almost”.
Would have been a deserving champion, no question.
Toyota - the most expensive failure in F1 history. Goes to show, corporate people need to back off and let racing people do racing things since they know what they're doing, not the corporate people.
P.S. Their Panasonic red and white liveries were gorgeous. It had a champion's livery but riddled with corporate incompetence.
More money more problems
@@TommoMcCluskey yes sir! I remember one time in 2006, the design of the car was supposed to be for the Michelin tyres. But because Toyota wanted to move to Bridgestone (Japanese team with Japanese tyres) it prevented Toyota from progressing forward from their 4th place in 05. It was a decent car, but not as competitive as the 05 car.
Ironically if Honda hadn't pulled out Red Bull might've won the title in 2009. Honda would've turned up to the first test (which in reality Brawn missed) giving the other teams about an extra week to study their double diffuser. That would probably mean Honda lose their advantage a little bit earlier than Brawn actually did which could make all the difference
In the start of the season I was afraid Aston becomes a Toyota 2.0 in season 2005 (Jarno Trulli also got podiums in the first races). I hope this will not be the case.
Honestly, it's debatable whether Honda would have won the championship had they stayed for 2009. That Mercedes power in the back of the Brawn was trully a blessing for the team. Who knows if that Honda engine had the ability to compete with RB's Renault engine. It's a fun scenario to think about anyways.
I've often wondered about that. By 2008, I recall that Honda engine being decent, and it had been some time since the Mercedes engines were all conquering. One of F1's great "What if"s.
It's a fair point, although you have to wonder how they had to optimise that chassis to fit a Merc powerplant in. If at all right. A works engine optimised to a chassis probably put you in a better place no?
I always had the feeling back than that all the engines were relativley close together since they got frozen in after the 2006 season.
@@felixlueggerto Indeed. Differences in horsepower between the various engines in those days could be counted on two hands (and maybe a toe or two on your foot)
@@felixlueggerto I'd forgotten that. So that was the engine spec that Button won with, yeah?
The Panasonic toyota livery was so nice and the BMW with Petronas 🔥
Glory days
honda in 2008: spends approx. $561M and puts all the resources for the RA109 which would turn out to be the Brawn BGP-001
also honda in 2021: ya know what, we're leaving f1, goodbye
not long after, in 2023: *WE'RE COMING BACK, BABY!*
zero brain cells in f1, 2000IQ in the automotive industry: thats honda (basically)
In defense of Bourdais, he was very unlicky, he was running 4th in Australia before a mechanical DNF and he qualified 4th in Monza and he had problems at the start
BMW in 2008 were like "we have hit the target set for the season, now onto the next step"
But Tom in 2008 the figure was total cost of everything including PU. In 2023 the PU's cost in not considered in budget cap and 1PU cost nearly $10 M with teams nearly using 8 during season. That's $80 M.
Was not expecting Ferrari to have the most efficient budget 🤣
Turns out they CAN be competent. 15 years ago...
@@TommoMcCluskey I remember the 09 car too it was dreadful
The dirty air wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is now lmao, the cars could actually race each other back then (probably mostly helped by the smaller size and lower weight, as well as the fact that these cars had way less downforce than the cars today)
Top 5 Biggest livery upgrades from one year to the next - video idea
I wonder why they decided to focus on 2009 in the middle of the season literally kubica was leading championship after canada.
Same reason McLaren thought focusing on their 2013 car during 2012 would be a good idea, they were in over their heads
@@KimiButNoDrink McLaren developing a completely new car in 2013 because they didnt understand why the 2012 car was fast for it to be slower than the 2012 car was peak McLaren lol
And BMW were very rigid in their goals 2009 was meant to be the championship year not 2008 so once they got the race win the bosses stupidly thought job done
Kubica was the best performing driver that year and with a car with more updates would have competed for the 08 championship
Personnally I think the 2008 cars are beautiful ! Some of the best even. I understand that many prefer the simpleer 1998-2004 cars but I don't know, I love them.
And I don't know how McLaren could possibly spend that much ! No wonder they ended up in financial difficulties and fell from grace.
And Honda... Oh Honda... The clowns of Formula 1. Retiring in 2008 when they had made the best car for 2009, then anouncing their retirement in 2020 for the end of 2021 where they finally win...
Aston Martin must be praying that they don't decide to retire after 2 seaons in 2027 or something lol. I wouldn't even be surprised if Lawrence Stroll asked for a 4 years guarantee from them so they don't leave F1 at the next change of CEO
Correction: I know it's not really the reason for the video etc. but Obama ran for president in 2008 but didn't take office until January 2009
6:55 “We dont want to fight for the title this year, that’s scheduled NEXT year!” (What a terrible decision…. )
0:11 Marketing budget for f1 Tommo? F1 teams and the results they get are the marketing vehicle for others. I havnt had a Williams add on TH-cam yet.
The cars from that era looked awful and had those stupid tires but they were so much smaller than today's cars . If you compare on a track like Monaco then the space that they have around them to move about is really noticeable. We dont realize how big these current f1 cars are .
We need to find a way of making the cars smaller
Dr. Mario Theissen who was the team principal of BMW Sauber claimed their resources was more allocated to the 2008 car based on his Beyond The Grid podcast but Kubica did not believe him. Despite that, I still think it would have been very hard for both driver and team to win either championship...🤔🤔
2008 was expensive, across the board!
Those toyota liveries always slapped.
they spent less but goddamn is that Force India a thing of beauty
@Tommo, my immediate response to your "Triple Crown McLaren livery ... is stunning" comment was "ARE YOU HIGH?!??" I feel it is ultra busy and not a patch on their one-off Gulf livery from 2021. Obviously this kind of thing is subjective, so play your own game on that one.
Weirdly, despite not being a Toyota person (I've long held a belief that if you buy a Toyota, you've given up on life), I was disappointed when Toyota pulled out as it was finally coming together, and there were races in 2009 where they were credible chances for a win.
Oh, and for all you Toyota owners out there; I feel like Toyota have woken up in the last few years and are actually designing exciting cars again. The issue I had with them was that their cars were the personification of bland for a good two decades. However, it was obviously a winning marketing strategy, so what the hell do I know?
Neil nooooo. TBF I do love colour blocking more than most, so that livery just hits my taste on the nose.
Toyota are so hit and miss man, but then again they're the biggest car company in the world. Trying to be all things to all people, ain't easy. At least Lexus exists, I love a Lexus.
@@TommoMcCluskey Oh, I immediately saw the colour blocking which matched the classic Marlboro blocking, and was quietly impressed. But like I said, it's all a bit subjective and I clearly seem to be in the minority here, as I've seen nothing but praise.
Actually, Lexus would be a good pull, and I could easily get behind a Lexus F1 team. I also wish Lexus would join the V8 Supercars (being Australian and all).
Thanks for responding man. Much appreciated.
Some CRAZY numbers…
Video suggestion: 2008 liveries v 2023 liveries
Tommo viewers: "haha wow they spent so much money back in the day"
Me: haha holy fuck 2008 was 15 years ago.
9:10 i know a DarkViper reference when i see one
If you ask any team principle if they'd rather be p5 in the championship with a p2 and p3 or p6 in the championship with a win, what do you think they'd say? Even toro rosso finished ahead of toyota in my mind lol.
Toyota after 2009 season: *Should we have spent so heavily in the past? Probably not. But we lived the dream.*
To be fair, Honda probably couldn’t have won the 2009 championship. Honda’s biggest weakness at that time was the mediocre Honda engine. Brawn striking a deal to use the Mercedes engine was crucial to their title win.
If you make 2007 version McLaren would be the most efficient with $0 per point
Actually insane that the team that finished P10 in the championship in 2008 spent 40 MILLION $$ more during that season than even the top teams are allowed to spend nowadays. Blows my mind a bit.
Baffling eh. I can only assume that a sizeable chunk of that budget was going into the 2009 Honda... which obviously became the Brawn. That's the only way that level of uncompetitiveness in 2008 is remotely justifiable.
@@TommoMcCluskeyI was talking about Force India, but...sure😂
With Ferrari in 2008 as well Felipe would have won the championship if crash gate didn’t happen
It doesn't always work out having a works team, ask Toyota, BMW and Ford. BMW came the closest during the V8 era and could've been champions if they didn't focus on developing the next seasons car after McLaren were disqualified.
Honda is like that annoying Ex that will beg for your attention when you are not interested but will ghost as soon as things get good between you!!
Is it cold in your house ? I think you need a scarf
Hamilton was champion, Massa is my champion, but everyone knows Kubica was the best driver that year. Argue with a wall because I don’t need to justify.
imagine rog or razer logo on a mercedes louis vuitton on the ferrari that would look sick rather than those crypto stuff. then you have haas with a pringles logo that would be hilarious.
Capri Sun used to sponsor Force India ffs
the 2008 cars were beautifull
If Honda had ran their 2009 car how they developed it (i.e. with a Honda engine not a Mercedes engine) then they wouldn't have done nearly as well as they did, Nick Fry has said that the Mercedes engine was one of the main reasons they were so much quicker
Kubica still driving in LMP2 and stil performs
But what does an actual team spend today with marketing and driver pay and the contracting services they don’t cap
Mercedes 2014-2019 would be interesting (isnt their budget over that time about $500m)
No, it was around 420/430 from 2015 to 2019 or 2020
Correct me if I’m wrong, the 2009 Brawn chassis was from Honda, but the double-diffuser was introduced by Ross Brawn. Thus, the greatest advantage of that car might have not been present if Honda kept on managing the team.
Only true tommo fans know that this title was changed two times
Honda probably would've lost the 2009 championship because their engine was appalling, without the mercedes ilmor in the back that car might not even win a race
The 2008-2020 period was clearly INJUSTICE period.
I always say, toyota doesn't know how to build sports cars. They're trying to change the narrative but the supra and 86 are made by other OEMs.
They do be spending them bags tho!🤑
More money, less points.
Me when Tommo :)
🙌
I can’t wait for Honda to immediately pussy out the millisecond Aston Martin starts declining
Did he just say that 2008 cars were ugly?!
*U N S U B S C R I B E*
Ugly beautiful
is your cap a breaking bad reference?
Minton!
Your dog is cute.
I want Toyota back.
Nah, they should stay in WEC where they are at the top
How much is a point worth in prize money?
"ugly"?? Bro, were you watching an entirely different sport? 2008 produced probably some of the best looking cars of all time.
This HAD to have been sarcasm
Monaco would have been quite successful, if something hadn't happened
Once upon a time Ferrari was good :D
Massa won 2008 world champion 🏆
It kinda feels to me that 2008 was an old version of 2021( last year before new regs, championship fight with a controversial end in the last lap etc)
It's a shame that Ferrari didn't win the Championship😢
🐶 doggo
Would like to see one of those videos for some seasons closer to today, like let's say during the Red Bull Vettel dominated era and the Mercedes dominated era. Because there are people who are of the opinion that Mercedes was only on top because they out-spent everyone like crazy. While I know this is not true whatsoever (there are articles about it) it would be nice to see someone with a bigger voice show how things actually were in those days.
To many fins, those front fins looked horrible,
They were a bit much.
well they could have spend 600 million and finished 12th
only point I absolutely don't agree is the 2008 cars being ugly!!
Does your pup think (s)he's a parrot?
Love Bmw such a shame they left the sport
@15:45: Cripto wil be the next bubble.
Hard to disagree 😬
@@TommoMcCluskey It's easy to say in hindsight. But I didn't see the value in Cripto and NFTs back then. Maybe it's autism, but for me everything has to have a visible value. :P
MINTON
You actually liked that Toyota livery? I thought it was one of the worst that season.
Hamza nooooooooooo
Snag dog!
Bring back the tobacco sponsorship days😂
I mean Mclarens livery this week kind of looks like a cigar
@@caitlin465 Fr it does hahahahaha
Orange filter
white
black literally a halfway smoked cig
Well we already have e-ciggies, and they don't exactly bring the aesthetic. 😬
Right before the global financial crisis 😂😂😂
Crazy how alot of teams could stay alive.
Not honda however 😢
Both Honda teams didn't make it past the year end. 😬
Toyota and BMW were done not long after though, and Renault scaled back too.
Only Ferrari and Mercedes had the strength to power through.
@@TPH250290 Redbull also powered through but they came from further back iguess.
@@TakodaTGL I was talking about manufacturers. Obviously Red Bull survived the effects of the financial crash on F1, they were a customer team.
I think there's something wrong with your parrot, mate?
I miss the cigarettes sponsors
Well I’m sure some F1 Fans are not missing having Lung Cancer despite the logos looking good
And this is exactly why all the idiots who put Red Bull's dominant car down to their overspend, are exactly that.
If a $500k overspend = 0.5% performance gain then I'll get a loan for Williams myself.
@@TommoMcCluskey I will home-cook for Ferrari if that is what it takes
So in 15 years, F1 lost their sound,grid girls,refueling, some tracks, and their balls..
RiP
i know i’m supposed to be paying attention but… minton 🥹🥹
He's a great storyteller isn't he