I wish there was some way to verify someone has actually played the game before they can rate it. The ratings start to lose their meaning when people put 1's or 10's on a game and also tag it as unplayed.
Some people rate without tracking games played; others track games played without rating; some do both; and most do neither. In general, as long as users don't break the rules, they are free to rate games as they wish. -WEM
Something like this is implemented on Steam platform for videogames, playtime is tracked and is shown for every user review, you can also filter reviews by playtime. Cannot be done for board games unfortunately
I always look at BGG rank as "there is a good chance of me liking a game in the top 100". Just as I think as "there is a good chance of me liking a game recommended by Tom Vasel or SUSD"
My only real issue with the BGG rankings are the ratings that are placed on a game specifically for "balance", i.e. when people give a game a 1 simply because they think it has too many high ratings and don't like the idea of it. I do think that games shouldn't be allowed to be scored before they are released.
12:15 "any ranked system is going to have oddities in it". Eric did an excellent job presenting the pluses and minuses of ratings systems. In general, BGG is an amazing database of information, creating a great balance of opinion, advertising and impartiality. Keep up the great work!!
You made some great points here. I think rankings and ratings can be a good point of reference once you know the types of games you like. I know that Gloomhaven isn’t for me, but I actually think I would like Brass. I wouldn’t know that when I first got into the hobby.
Then bgg should add a note to the list for people that are just getting into the hobby so that they understand how it works. New people getting into the hobby are reaching you web page for a reason and as you said it has an impact on sales too.
A new comer/not-so-boardgame player here, bgg rating is very very useful because when I come back to the website, it helps me filter games very quickly and give me a list of "what's is good right now" in the vast realm of board games. And if a game is in the top for a long time, I certainly should look into it. The list, the reviews and the detailed stats per score give me a good understanding if the game is good, and if it gives a hate/love feeling with swinging ratings. As a new comer/not-so-boardgame player, I can also certify that players getting Gloomhaven without knowing it's a BIG game did absolutely no research and buy it on a whim.
For me the bgg rateing is very important. It allows to screen games fast. Still the exact spot is not so important. It is more about the average rating what people say in their rating. If I see lots of ratings without a meaningful description, I will give it a pass, simply because of the up- and downvoting to get a good rank. But I like the idea of checking what people like, who rate my favourite games similarly. I will definetly have a look at it and see if I can find some new games :-)
This is a good point. If you just look at the over all rating but not people who like a certain time you’re going to be buying a lot of stuff that never leaves your shelf more than once before getting sold.
I think the BGG ranking system is perfect just the way it is. It’s fun to see what others rank high/low. I don’t use it to decide what to buy. I watch vids for that.
Agree with your points. As a side note, can anything be done about the rating bombing on BGG? (All the people adding 1’s or 10’s to drive the rating up or down?)
I definitely agree that rating bombing is annoying, whether BGG or other sites for shows/movies or video games… however for me personally I rate many games 10, because I use their suggested guide. Some games change rating for me after a few months or years but I think that’s okay to reflect the ratings as well. Although many of them really are a 10 and I would say yes almost every time someone suggested playing them.
Even Brass Birmingham has fewer than 200 1 ratings. That’s out of 35,000 total ratings. The effect of rating bombing on the top ranked games is fairly insignificant
@@phunkysai Well, I just looked and Gloomhaven got overwhelmingly 1-bombed over the last 24-48 hours. I think they added an additional 300-400 1-star reviews from the last time I checked. 1-star reviews (relative to 10-bombings) are going to have a greater effect because they represent a greater deviation from the mean. But even with all that, the overall ranking dropped less than ~0.025 points overall. in the short-term this will have an effect on the rankings when the difference between the average score for the games ranked 1 and 2 are so small. But over time, as more standard reviews are added to each game's score, these "bombings' will be factored out.
As S Gitter notes, the number of 1 votes on both Brass: Birmingham and Gloomhaven is relatively small compared to the total number of ratings given. In general, it's static on the overall message that both games are enjoyed by tens of thousands of people. -WEM
I get games because reviewers show it off or play it and I think I will enjoy it. Not every game I own I end up enjoying. Not every game I own is highly rated. It's my collection and it works for me and my groups.
I LOVE BB. I LOVE GH. Both games deserve #1 imo - they are both that good. The ranking system is also about what's hot, popular and getting clicks. So many great games out there above #200 ranked that could easily be in the top 10 if they were more well known. The rankings are great but flawed like any other ranking system that we use (college sports/etc.)
You can do that! Go to the "Browse" tab, then "All Boardgames", then click on "Num Voters" to see the list of games ordered by the number of ratings: boardgamegeek.com/browse/boardgame?sort=numvoters&sortdir=desc -WEM
I always think that the list of most played games in the month or year is important, to the point that I wonder how the rank would change if were included in the algorithm
Meanwhile in the German Spielepreis, Brass Birmingham never even showed up and Gloomhaven just managed 10th place (in the year when Wingspan took the first). Different audiences, different tastes.
I’m just finding this community of game boarders. My friends are not into game boards so I really enjoy seeing others play games on line. I liked your insight.
The way users opt in or out of having a rating for a game based on the description makes a lot of sense, and some good games' ratings have taken a beating because of it. If players expect one thing from a game, and it doesn't deliver that but does deliver something else very well, it might get a lower rating from those who played it and didn't have their expectations met. Factory Manager, Epic card game, My Village, and Tourney for example are solid games, but may have attracted players who found it didn't match their expectations and rated them lower.
If the rankings shouldn’t be used we shouldn’t celebrate them. It’s also important to note that they are not true rankings, but manipulated by the site so they are just one version of what would be considered the top games.
My primary considerations of Thematic-Mechanic Interest, Ratings with Standard Deviation, and Monthly Distinct User Count have generally worked out well for acquiring titles from which I draw enjoyment🎲
It's time for a change. BGG needs to let people rank their favorite games 1 - ??? And give them a point value. After an account is 1 year old that users top games are added to the database to determine the actual rankings of games. I know people say the rankings dont matter but they do , a lot. It helps sales , it brings attention to top games and it gives people a reference for many questions. There is a reason why the top games videos are always every channels most viewed. It works for videogames so make it work for board games.
@@craigandrews7544 • Under "Advanced Search" (boardgamegeek.com/advsearch/boardgame), you can search by game weight (among other things). The scale goes from 1-5, although extremely few games have a weight above 3.5. -WEM
The number rating a person gives a game is helpful for a cursory glance. I prefer reading the comments the person gives a game for the more in depth reason behind their number rating
Agreed! I much prefer reading comments on high and low ratings to see why the person landed where they did. Sometimes the thing someone loves is exactly what I want to avoid! -WEM
I think a family system would fix almost all problems people have with the ranking system. All the pandemic games, the brass games, or the gloomhaven games would be put onto a "family" and only the highest rated game of the family would represent the family on the rankings.
I have floated this idea internally in the past. Actually, we've floated dozens of ideas related to the ratings and rankings. None is necessarily better than another, and all will lead to a variety of problems or complaints. -WEM
The ranking formula is made in such way that the owner/the guys running BGG get the top 100 they want. A question: Do publishers pay more if they get into the top 10 games?? We are many who wants a formula which put a brilliant, and still very popular (just look to BGA) game like Carcassonne in the top 50/100. The game has been in the top 30 most registered played games BY the users of BGG each month for like 23 years straight now.
I've played fewer than twenty of the games in the top 100, and none of my favorite games come anywhere close to those ranks. Carcassonne is a wonderful game, but it's also so wide-reaching that plenty of people who don't like it have rated it low, whereas something like Gloomhaven is so exclusive that it weeds out those who would dislike it, so they'll never play and rate it poorly. -WEM
No, especially not the BGG one, usually if a game is low rated there I tend to have my curiosity tickled, because the bgg audience don't like the same games as I...
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Some great games are actually free mods done out of true passion e.g. "Tammany Hall - Machine Made".
There is a need for a breakdown of the BGG list. What's the point of comparing Gloomhaven to Balderdash? A list must be made for each type of game: euro games, party games, co-op games, campaign games,...
Great stuff. Many thanks. Couldn't agree more about watching playthroughs to see if you'll like a game. I find rules videos and reading rulebooks equally as informative (except for videos where they seem to think that the Birmingham in Brass is the one in Alabama). 🤦♂
BGG, Take a step back & think about it. you just explain to us that your rating is relevant but not relevant. End of the day, folks use your ranking to determine what are great games. This should be the objective of your ranking system
I don't bother with the rankings of games anymore. The list is community driven and therefore biased. Far too many games get 1s and 10s with the excuse to counter the other, plus I don't see why people can give 1s and 10s to games that aren't even out yet. Also, the fact that when a new version of a game comes out which has a few rules tweaks, new artwork etc, some of them get their own entry to the list and others get merged. There doesn't seem to be a defining rule on what gets it's own entry or merged.
My son loved Rocky, and we then watched all of the sequels, then both Creed movies, then he started taking boxing, so I appreciate Rocky for inspiring him in that direction. I just don't want to watch it again myself. -WEM
So i drive BMW and dont like AUDI, so i need give to AUDI bad score because i dont like it, that is stupid. The ranking system is the same for everyone, if more people liked the game, it's certainly not by chance, everyone will try the game they like visually with the theme and rules. If a game is in the top 50 and its theme is what you like, then no problem, buy that game, you won't make a mistake.
Only .5% of Brass: Birmingham's ratings are a 1 and only 1.25% of Gloomhaven's ratings are a 1, so the impact of those 1s is relatively small compared to the tens of thousands of other ratings on those games. Those ratings are static that barely affect the quality of the transmission, so I wouldn't give it any attention. -WEM
This is how I feel about Unstable Unicorns, its ranked 3,106 but I love the game so much - my family and I play 8 players. Yesterday I found out the creator of the game is the same person that makes Teeturtle shirts, which is pretty amazing.
Bgg is just a database of games. It only serves a purpose as a ranking platform for boardgame elitists that like looking smart, because that's the type of person to engage overproportionally and give inflated reviews. If the recent decade has taught anything, it's that rating numbers are kinda meaningless, because honest amateur reviewing and rating have died. Especially when it's about top spots on a list, fanatics get to start rating wars.
Rocky was a snooze? For shame! ;-) I consider it a perfect movie. But yeah... I get it, not everything is for everyone. :-) That's what makes the horse races!
Rocky's running in the street...and he's still running. Look, more running! Now he's showing Adrian his apartment, and he has a knife sticking out of his mattress, yet she doesn't run away?! Now he's running again, probably to the knife store... -WEM
It would be a hoot if folks start rating tic tac toe 10’s and it starts climbing up. Seriously though, I view BGG rankings as one data point in purchase decisions. Any of the top 5 games easily could be #1 given the diverse choice and taste of gamers today.
Maybe he’s smart enough to use friends or game group copies instead of spending his own money just to have some he already has readily available to him. Or he just doesn’t feel the need to show off his collection.
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I wish there was some way to verify someone has actually played the game before they can rate it. The ratings start to lose their meaning when people put 1's or 10's on a game and also tag it as unplayed.
Some people rate without tracking games played; others track games played without rating; some do both; and most do neither. In general, as long as users don't break the rules, they are free to rate games as they wish. -WEM
Something like this is implemented on Steam platform for videogames, playtime is tracked and is shown for every user review, you can also filter reviews by playtime. Cannot be done for board games unfortunately
I always look at BGG rank as "there is a good chance of me liking a game in the top 100". Just as I think as "there is a good chance of me liking a game recommended by Tom Vasel or SUSD"
My only real issue with the BGG rankings are the ratings that are placed on a game specifically for "balance", i.e. when people give a game a 1 simply because they think it has too many high ratings and don't like the idea of it.
I do think that games shouldn't be allowed to be scored before they are released.
12:15 "any ranked system is going to have oddities in it". Eric did an excellent job presenting the pluses and minuses of ratings systems. In general, BGG is an amazing database of information, creating a great balance of opinion, advertising and impartiality. Keep up the great work!!
You made some great points here. I think rankings and ratings can be a good point of reference once you know the types of games you like. I know that Gloomhaven isn’t for me, but I actually think I would like Brass. I wouldn’t know that when I first got into the hobby.
Then bgg should add a note to the list for people that are just getting into the hobby so that they understand how it works. New people getting into the hobby are reaching you web page for a reason and as you said it has an impact on sales too.
A new comer/not-so-boardgame player here, bgg rating is very very useful because when I come back to the website, it helps me filter games very quickly and give me a list of "what's is good right now" in the vast realm of board games. And if a game is in the top for a long time, I certainly should look into it.
The list, the reviews and the detailed stats per score give me a good understanding if the game is good, and if it gives a hate/love feeling with swinging ratings.
As a new comer/not-so-boardgame player, I can also certify that players getting Gloomhaven without knowing it's a BIG game did absolutely no research and buy it on a whim.
For me the bgg rateing is very important. It allows to screen games fast. Still the exact spot is not so important. It is more about the average rating what people say in their rating. If I see lots of ratings without a meaningful description, I will give it a pass, simply because of the up- and downvoting to get a good rank.
But I like the idea of checking what people like, who rate my favourite games similarly. I will definetly have a look at it and see if I can find some new games :-)
This is a good point. If you just look at the over all rating but not people who like a certain time you’re going to be buying a lot of stuff that never leaves your shelf more than once before getting sold.
I think the BGG ranking system is perfect just the way it is. It’s fun to see what others rank high/low. I don’t use it to decide what to buy. I watch vids for that.
Agree with your points. As a side note, can anything be done about the rating bombing on BGG? (All the people adding 1’s or 10’s to drive the rating up or down?)
I definitely agree that rating bombing is annoying, whether BGG or other sites for shows/movies or video games… however for me personally I rate many games 10, because I use their suggested guide. Some games change rating for me after a few months or years but I think that’s okay to reflect the ratings as well. Although many of them really are a 10 and I would say yes almost every time someone suggested playing them.
Even Brass Birmingham has fewer than 200 1 ratings. That’s out of 35,000 total ratings. The effect of rating bombing on the top ranked games is fairly insignificant
@@dubalo But isn't the review bombing the reason why we're seeing the current #1 and #2 fluctuate back and forth currently?
@@phunkysai Well, I just looked and Gloomhaven got overwhelmingly 1-bombed over the last 24-48 hours. I think they added an additional 300-400 1-star reviews from the last time I checked. 1-star reviews (relative to 10-bombings) are going to have a greater effect because they represent a greater deviation from the mean. But even with all that, the overall ranking dropped less than ~0.025 points overall. in the short-term this will have an effect on the rankings when the difference between the average score for the games ranked 1 and 2 are so small. But over time, as more standard reviews are added to each game's score, these "bombings' will be factored out.
As S Gitter notes, the number of 1 votes on both Brass: Birmingham and Gloomhaven is relatively small compared to the total number of ratings given. In general, it's static on the overall message that both games are enjoyed by tens of thousands of people. -WEM
I wonder if my changing my ranking from a 4 to an 8 helped with Gloomhaven 😂. I started playing the digital version and grew to like it.
I get games because reviewers show it off or play it and I think I will enjoy it. Not every game I own I end up enjoying. Not every game I own is highly rated. It's my collection and it works for me and my groups.
I LOVE BB. I LOVE GH. Both games deserve #1 imo - they are both that good. The ranking system is also about what's hot, popular and getting clicks. So many great games out there above #200 ranked that could easily be in the top 10 if they were more well known. The rankings are great but flawed like any other ranking system that we use (college sports/etc.)
I find ordering the database by "number of votes" more informative than by "ranking". It is a more useful list to more people
You can do that! Go to the "Browse" tab, then "All Boardgames", then click on "Num Voters" to see the list of games ordered by the number of ratings: boardgamegeek.com/browse/boardgame?sort=numvoters&sortdir=desc -WEM
I do the same. Downside is that it takes years for really good new games to climb up.
I always think that the list of most played games in the month or year is important, to the point that I wonder how the rank would change if were included in the algorithm
Some great points here. I always considered the BGG ranking as "The Old Hotness"
I just checked and Brass Birmingham is still #1. By more than it was yesterday 🤔
@Jay i disagree. BGGs top list is better than some review, because they are based off of hundreds maybe thousands of people's playthroughs.
Meanwhile in the German Spielepreis, Brass Birmingham never even showed up and Gloomhaven just managed 10th place (in the year when Wingspan took the first). Different audiences, different tastes.
Just looked that ranking system up - matches with my tastes more. thanks for sharing!
You are right.
I'm a huge Brass Birmingham fan by the way. Played it 500 times. I felt happiness in my mind after it became #1
I’m just finding this community of game boarders. My friends are not into game boards so I really enjoy seeing others play games on line. I liked your insight.
The way users opt in or out of having a rating for a game based on the description makes a lot of sense, and some good games' ratings have taken a beating because of it. If players expect one thing from a game, and it doesn't deliver that but does deliver something else very well, it might get a lower rating from those who played it and didn't have their expectations met. Factory Manager, Epic card game, My Village, and Tourney for example are solid games, but may have attracted players who found it didn't match their expectations and rated them lower.
If the rankings shouldn’t be used we shouldn’t celebrate them. It’s also important to note that they are not true rankings, but manipulated by the site so they are just one version of what would be considered the top games.
My primary considerations of Thematic-Mechanic Interest, Ratings with Standard Deviation, and Monthly Distinct User Count have generally worked out well for acquiring titles from which I draw enjoyment🎲
It's time for a change. BGG needs to let people rank their favorite games 1 - ??? And give them a point value. After an account is 1 year old that users top games are added to the database to determine the actual rankings of games. I know people say the rankings dont matter but they do , a lot. It helps sales , it brings attention to top games and it gives people a reference for many questions. There is a reason why the top games videos are always every channels most viewed. It works for videogames so make it work for board games.
yesss do some videos on innovation. i've been getting into the expansions recently so it's hot for me right now.
BGG is not for the light hobbyist. But if filtered on complexity it can help
I still can’t work out where to filter by complexity
@@craigandrews7544 • Under "Advanced Search" (boardgamegeek.com/advsearch/boardgame), you can search by game weight (among other things). The scale goes from 1-5, although extremely few games have a weight above 3.5. -WEM
The number rating a person gives a game is helpful for a cursory glance. I prefer reading the comments the person gives a game for the more in depth reason behind their number rating
Agreed! I much prefer reading comments on high and low ratings to see why the person landed where they did. Sometimes the thing someone loves is exactly what I want to avoid! -WEM
I think a family system would fix almost all problems people have with the ranking system. All the pandemic games, the brass games, or the gloomhaven games would be put onto a "family" and only the highest rated game of the family would represent the family on the rankings.
I have floated this idea internally in the past. Actually, we've floated dozens of ideas related to the ratings and rankings. None is necessarily better than another, and all will lead to a variety of problems or complaints. -WEM
I am surprised brass birminghams rated so highly given that there are many ppl who dont feel so positive about it. It is a game that is more divided
Very well reasoned video and your voice is so calm and soothing. :D
The ranking formula is made in such way that the owner/the guys running BGG get the top 100 they want. A question: Do publishers pay more if they get into the top 10 games??
We are many who wants a formula which put a brilliant, and still very popular (just look to BGA) game like Carcassonne in the top 50/100. The game has been in the top 30 most registered played games BY the users of BGG each month for like 23 years straight now.
I've played fewer than twenty of the games in the top 100, and none of my favorite games come anywhere close to those ranks.
Carcassonne is a wonderful game, but it's also so wide-reaching that plenty of people who don't like it have rated it low, whereas something like Gloomhaven is so exclusive that it weeds out those who would dislike it, so they'll never play and rate it poorly. -WEM
No, especially not the BGG one, usually if a game is low rated there I tend to have my curiosity tickled, because the bgg audience don't like the same games as I...
Some great games are actually free mods done out of true passion e.g. "Tammany Hall - Machine Made".
Got them both, love them both. But Gloomhaven is my FAVORITE favorite. I dont really care about the rankings, frankly
There is a need for a breakdown of the BGG list. What's the point of comparing Gloomhaven to Balderdash? A list must be made for each type of game: euro games, party games, co-op games, campaign games,...
Great stuff. Many thanks. Couldn't agree more about watching playthroughs to see if you'll like a game. I find rules videos and reading rulebooks equally as informative (except for videos where they seem to think that the Birmingham in Brass is the one in Alabama). 🤦♂
The BGG ranking list that I look at most are family games.
Innovation Deluxe should be number 1!
There are some technical shenanigans , why it isn't ranked at all!
BGG, Take a step back & think about it.
you just explain to us that your rating is relevant but not relevant.
End of the day, folks use your ranking to determine what are great games. This should be the objective of your ranking system
I don't bother with the rankings of games anymore. The list is community driven and therefore biased. Far too many games get 1s and 10s with the excuse to counter the other, plus I don't see why people can give 1s and 10s to games that aren't even out yet. Also, the fact that when a new version of a game comes out which has a few rules tweaks, new artwork etc, some of them get their own entry to the list and others get merged. There doesn't seem to be a defining rule on what gets it's own entry or merged.
Love your videos and thoughts on gaming, and enthusiastically approve of the new hairdo! Innovation is in my top ten, fantastic game!
It was time to face reality and say goodbye to hair! -WEM
@@boardgamegeek I did the same in the mid 90s.
>Damage Control
What? You hate on Rocky??? That's IT! Innovation, be prepared for a vote of 1 from me on BGG. In your face Eric!
My son loved Rocky, and we then watched all of the sequels, then both Creed movies, then he started taking boxing, so I appreciate Rocky for inspiring him in that direction. I just don't want to watch it again myself. -WEM
So i drive BMW and dont like AUDI, so i need give to AUDI bad score because i dont like it, that is stupid. The ranking system is the same for everyone, if more people liked the game, it's certainly not by chance, everyone will try the game they like visually with the theme and rules. If a game is in the top 50 and its theme is what you like, then no problem, buy that game, you won't make a mistake.
How about bbg do something about all the review bombing?
Only .5% of Brass: Birmingham's ratings are a 1 and only 1.25% of Gloomhaven's ratings are a 1, so the impact of those 1s is relatively small compared to the tens of thousands of other ratings on those games. Those ratings are static that barely affect the quality of the transmission, so I wouldn't give it any attention. -WEM
This video seems to be geared towards children who don't understand rankings and hyperbolic hype / bomb ranking.
The Best.... after gloomhaven 🤣🤣😅
Well said. Good video.
This is how I feel about Unstable Unicorns, its ranked 3,106 but I love the game so much - my family and I play 8 players. Yesterday I found out the creator of the game is the same person that makes Teeturtle shirts, which is pretty amazing.
Bgg is just a database of games. It only serves a purpose as a ranking platform for boardgame elitists that like looking smart, because that's the type of person to engage overproportionally and give inflated reviews.
If the recent decade has taught anything, it's that rating numbers are kinda meaningless, because honest amateur reviewing and rating have died. Especially when it's about top spots on a list, fanatics get to start rating wars.
The recent decade has taught me very different things that what you learned! -WEM
Rocky was a snooze? For shame! ;-) I consider it a perfect movie. But yeah... I get it, not everything is for everyone. :-) That's what makes the horse races!
Rocky's running in the street...and he's still running. Look, more running! Now he's showing Adrian his apartment, and he has a knife sticking out of his mattress, yet she doesn't run away?! Now he's running again, probably to the knife store... -WEM
@@boardgamegeek LOL! I love what you took away from it. ;-)
It would be a hoot if folks start rating tic tac toe 10’s and it starts climbing up. Seriously though, I view BGG rankings as one data point in purchase decisions. Any of the top 5 games easily could be #1 given the diverse choice and taste of gamers today.
Yes, once you start comparing games that differ by a tenth of a point, the differences in their ranking doesn't matter. -WEM
Rocky is so good. Better than 99% of the crap produced today.
I disagree, but with so many movies out there, I'm sure there's something we'd both want to see. -WEM
Also for Mr BGG your game shelf is rather sparse…hopefully you gave away games to charity
Maybe he’s smart enough to use friends or game group copies instead of spending his own money just to have some he already has readily available to him. Or he just doesn’t feel the need to show off his collection.
I'm reorganizing the office, so I needed to move the shelves. Not sure how I'll decorate for the next video! -WEM