I was first introduced to the new take on Catharism in University. While it's slightly disappointing that they probably didn’t exist in the way I had previously thought, the new reading of these events is a lot sadder and more relevant to today.
A somewhat tangent timeline could be one where Aragon was never incorporated into the Spanish state. The dynamics between Spain, France and an independent Aragon/Catalonia in that Pyrenees region would be very different, i suppose. On whose side would Aragon end up in future conflicts?
Yeah a lot of things would be thrown out of whack if Castile and Aragon didn't unite. I didn't really go into it during this video since that event would be a couple centuries away from the initial POD.
In that timeline we would just see France take a longer time to centralise its southen parts, as Aragon was in decline for the most of the XV century, and it was just the union with Castile that made it bounce back. If Castile and Aragon unite the situation would change as Spain and France will be able to counterbalance the french in the region, we may see France, or any other outsider nation, not being able to effectively control the area till maybe the XVIII century or later
Actually, if they were asked what religion they were, most likely they would say "Christian" not "Catholic" as in the 13th Century there was only Roman Catholic Christianity primarily in Western Europe. The Reformation and the rise of non-Catholic Christianity didn't start until the 15th/16th Centuries and the Eastern Christians still considered themselves "Orthodox Catholics".
Fair point. I think I did intend to say "Christian" but ultimately said Catholic. I hope it still gets the point across that they did not consider themselves a separate gnostic version of Christianity.
Should be noted that a crusade being repulsed doesn't necessarily result in a massive change. Take the Bohemian Crusades for instance. 4 Crusades were repulsed and no Hussite airships. Granted Hussites were also just slightly variant Catholics and not some kind of anti-Christian cult.
But more than a religious matter it was more a power struggle between aragon and france for the control of the languedoc. Religion was just an excuse for a casus beli. The hussite crusades were for the survival of the hussites, the cathar crusade was just greed. As aragon could've let it happen and nothing much would have changed, it was their ambition that lead to the war escalating.
@@TheAlternateHistorian I am not really criticizing, If this was some remix of a fan art deepfried photoshop the best you could do would be to say the website you got it from it just feels humorous when the image is just a screenshot of a show, I think the source of the meme's image is the second sketch of s02e02 of Monty Python's Flying Circus titled "The Spanish Inquisition" first aired 22 September 1970. but that sketch is so deeply ingrained in internet nerd culture that only a extreme pedant would think that you are trying to plagiarize it even if you didn't credit the source.
Interesting, first I had heard of a change in the history of thr Cathars. It reminded me of a book i just finished about the Borgias (the borgias the hidden history, by G.J Meyer). In which he points out that many of the excess and scandalous acts attributed to them were from a smear campaign from their enemies. And or were written long after their passing and accepted as fact to this day. It was a fun and fast read as well.
As soon as I saw you talking about making this video on twitter I knew this was gonna be connected to ESOTERICA’s video on it. It’s nice to see the march of academic rigor decontextualize history and by extension alternative history. It’s a way to show NEW possibilities in place of the old. Because that which is driven from fact is far more fascinating then what is retread from fiction.
This is interesting for me, as a Bosnian, since we had a Cathar-like heresy here. Our heresy won. Mostly because Matej Ninoslav and the nobility united against the church.
Kings and generals has a great series on this crusade. Not sure if it's been released to non-channel members yet, but if not it's not far off. Highly recommend for a deep dive on how the war went. Video idea: what if the leaders of the first Crusade held to their oath to the Byzantines and became vassals rather than independent states?
Southern OTL France + Aragon as a unified state since about the 1400s? I could very much see that turning into a nation state with pretty unified identity and a unified national language (with strong dialects). Makes me wonder what Spanish/Castillian and French would have evolved into without the influence of those regions.
@@TheAlternateHistorian I don't see any chance of some grand riunification after the Crusaders have sacked Constaninople. There are better alternatives much closer to home: various pauperistic movements- Albigensians, Patarines, Valdensians, Joachimites, even Franciscan Spirituals.
3:20 These criticisms of the methods of the inquisition seems exaggerated in the context that such methods were the standard judicial practices and that certainly, the later inquisitions(I don't know about the albegensian one) were more lineant in the use of these methods than the secular authorities. Would we then follow the same standard and assume essentially all medieval legal documents are a bunch of baloney or assume that the inquisitors were at least as and often more accurate than contemporary secular judges?.
5:53 Hey, when did people develop the consciousness that they were Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox? Reading some old stuff I would find writers identifying as simply Christians, and they would call the others "Schismatics"
I don't know why ur using the 4th crusade as an example of Papal power overreach when it had very little to do with religion. Like, I am pretty sure people were excommunicated over it. Like, hey Crusaders also started shit in Hungary and other places, I guess Hungary wasn't Catholic right?.
@@Anactualfungus People should be leaving politics at the door when analysing history. It clouds judgement. As for the personal attack that has fuck all to do with what I was saying, I'm so confident you're wrong about me that, if I believed in gambling, I'd be willing to bet literally my entire net worth that you could not positively identify what supposed "doomsday cult" you think I'm in. Actually unironically try and guess it.
"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
"The Inquisition, what a show!"
Yes! Finally, someone referencing the *better* Spanish Inquisition sketch.
#😂 #HYPE FOR COM🅿️PHEE🇬🇷 🪑#CHEERZ💺🖇️
I was first introduced to the new take on Catharism in University. While it's slightly disappointing that they probably didn’t exist in the way I had previously thought, the new reading of these events is a lot sadder and more relevant to today.
A somewhat tangent timeline could be one where Aragon was never incorporated into the Spanish state. The dynamics between Spain, France and an independent Aragon/Catalonia in that Pyrenees region would be very different, i suppose. On whose side would Aragon end up in future conflicts?
Yeah a lot of things would be thrown out of whack if Castile and Aragon didn't unite. I didn't really go into it during this video since that event would be a couple centuries away from the initial POD.
In that timeline we would just see France take a longer time to centralise its southen parts, as Aragon was in decline for the most of the XV century, and it was just the union with Castile that made it bounce back.
If Castile and Aragon unite the situation would change as Spain and France will be able to counterbalance the french in the region, we may see France, or any other outsider nation, not being able to effectively control the area till maybe the XVIII century or later
Actually, if they were asked what religion they were, most likely they would say "Christian" not "Catholic" as in the 13th Century there was only Roman Catholic Christianity primarily in Western Europe. The Reformation and the rise of non-Catholic Christianity didn't start until the 15th/16th Centuries and the Eastern Christians still considered themselves "Orthodox Catholics".
Fair point. I think I did intend to say "Christian" but ultimately said Catholic. I hope it still gets the point across that they did not consider themselves a separate gnostic version of Christianity.
Should be noted that a crusade being repulsed doesn't necessarily result in a massive change. Take the Bohemian Crusades for instance. 4 Crusades were repulsed and no Hussite airships. Granted Hussites were also just slightly variant Catholics and not some kind of anti-Christian cult.
But more than a religious matter it was more a power struggle between aragon and france for the control of the languedoc. Religion was just an excuse for a casus beli. The hussite crusades were for the survival of the hussites, the cathar crusade was just greed. As aragon could've let it happen and nothing much would have changed, it was their ambition that lead to the war escalating.
What If DoggerLand still existed today
Honestly would love to do a Doggerland what if one of these days.
What’s up doggerland?
@@TheAlternateHistoriansmells like updoggerland in here
The English would speak German.
@@rightcheer5096 they would speak dog
I like that the source for the inquisition image at 4:20 is know your meme and not say... Monty Python's Flying Circus
Fair point. I was looking for a screen shot to use and was just trying to credit where I got it from, but I should have gone straight to the source.
@@TheAlternateHistorian I am not really criticizing, If this was some remix of a fan art deepfried photoshop the best you could do would be to say the website you got it from it just feels humorous when the image is just a screenshot of a show, I think the source of the meme's image is the second sketch of s02e02 of Monty Python's Flying Circus titled "The Spanish Inquisition" first aired 22 September 1970. but that sketch is so deeply ingrained in internet nerd culture that only a extreme pedant would think that you are trying to plagiarize it even if you didn't credit the source.
Interesting, first I had heard of a change in the history of thr Cathars. It reminded me of a book i just finished about the Borgias (the borgias the hidden history, by G.J Meyer).
In which he points out that many of the excess and scandalous acts attributed to them were from a smear campaign from their enemies. And or were written long after their passing and accepted as fact to this day. It was a fun and fast read as well.
Yep. I think I mentioned that also in my video on the Borgias. Its an older video though so I don't always refer to it as I should.
As soon as I saw you talking about making this video on twitter I knew this was gonna be connected to ESOTERICA’s video on it. It’s nice to see the march of academic rigor decontextualize history and by extension alternative history. It’s a way to show NEW possibilities in place of the old. Because that which is driven from fact is far more fascinating then what is retread from fiction.
We'll see how rigorous it actually was in a generation or two when the process of criticism and synthesis go through their full process.
@ haha sure buddy.
Didnt knew of this guys , love learning stuff
Love your content 😊😊😊
Glad you enjoy it!
@@TheAlternateHistorian Always do
This is interesting for me, as a Bosnian, since we had a Cathar-like heresy here. Our heresy won.
Mostly because Matej Ninoslav and the nobility united against the church.
Kings and generals has a great series on this crusade. Not sure if it's been released to non-channel members yet, but if not it's not far off.
Highly recommend for a deep dive on how the war went.
Video idea: what if the leaders of the first Crusade held to their oath to the Byzantines and became vassals rather than independent states?
It has not been released :(
Southern OTL France + Aragon as a unified state since about the 1400s? I could very much see that turning into a nation state with pretty unified identity and a unified national language (with strong dialects). Makes me wonder what Spanish/Castillian and French would have evolved into without the influence of those regions.
I recommend that you look up heresies of the High Middle Ages. It contains some lengthy cathar documents as well as small schism within the cathars.
PART 2 PLEASE!!
I can see the Albigensians making a comeback after the Mongol conquerors of Europe have imposed toleration of all faiths and executed the Pope.
Either that or they all convert to Orthodox Christianity and the Pentarchy is reestablished.
@@TheAlternateHistorian I don't see any chance of some grand riunification after the Crusaders have sacked Constaninople. There are better alternatives much closer to home: various pauperistic movements- Albigensians, Patarines, Valdensians, Joachimites, even Franciscan Spirituals.
ESOTERICA SHOUT OUT! EPIC!
Was connecting the dots that he started talk about this so shortly after that video came out. Yesssss this is the quality cross pollination I expect!
3:20 These criticisms of the methods of the inquisition seems exaggerated in the context that such methods were the standard judicial practices and that certainly, the later inquisitions(I don't know about the albegensian one) were more lineant in the use of these methods than the secular authorities. Would we then follow the same standard and assume essentially all medieval legal documents are a bunch of baloney or assume that the inquisitors were at least as and often more accurate than contemporary secular judges?.
5:53 Hey, when did people develop the consciousness that they were Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox?
Reading some old stuff I would find writers identifying as simply Christians, and they would call the others "Schismatics"
so true bro
what if the Lollards took over England.
Please do a plausibility of jericho
Its on Paramount Plus😅
What if Fatimids conquered Spain during the Taifa period rather than Egypt?
The rise of Occatalonha
Awesome 👍🏼#GOOD-MAN🇮🇲
Based intro, educate the clowns
I don't know why ur using the 4th crusade as an example of Papal power overreach when it had very little to do with religion. Like, I am pretty sure people were excommunicated over it. Like, hey Crusaders also started shit in Hungary and other places, I guess Hungary wasn't Catholic right?.
Oh I didn’t know you went to catholic school. Are you still Christian?
Visca la terra lliure!
cough cough *whatifalthist cough cough.. 12:07
>gives this channel another shot after years if not watching
>immediately goes into modern politics
NOPE
Offended that he made a jab at your doomsday Qult? He was a lot nicer than 99% of people would be lol
@@Anactualfungus People should be leaving politics at the door when analysing history. It clouds judgement. As for the personal attack that has fuck all to do with what I was saying, I'm so confident you're wrong about me that, if I believed in gambling, I'd be willing to bet literally my entire net worth that you could not positively identify what supposed "doomsday cult" you think I'm in. Actually unironically try and guess it.