Every stoplight is an opportunity! Everyone else hating, get real. Not everything ever said by everyone, especially on the internet, is to be taken as factual or serious. There's satire and sarcasm, Google those two words, learn about them. It'll make your life so much easier.
Great video as always. I'm surprised you didn't mention how shifting gears manually also slows the acceleration of the s2000, while the leaf doesn't waste time shifting.
Without the loud engine, it's a totally different track experience.. you can feel things better and hear the tires etc and be more in touch with the car. Loud noise is what everyone is used to and associate with testosterone though I get it. Daily driving when I pass someone on a highway with my foot down I don't feel like as much of a dick as before when the engine is rev'd way up. For passing instant torque is better too, don't have to plan it and rev up or lose time down shifting and give yourself as much room.
A chart taking in to account the RPM changing when you change gear in the S2000 would also be interesting. Speed vs power if you're in the perfect gear.
FvGa i went to ASU for mechanical engineering and a majority of our units were in metric, not sure why the rest of us are so stuck on standard units🤷♂️
At least, we get both of them and not just Imperial. I live in a country where Metric is used for everything. However, for vehicles power, I use HP and not KW and is very hard to switch to Metric since all my reference points in terms of power are in Imperial. I actually understand people having difficulties switching to Metric after they have used their entire life Imperial units. Yeah, you can do it, but you'll always make conversions in your head to match you references.
At least he does give the measurements in metric. In my country, the metric system was promised as the way forward; then the government made no actual plan to implement the system in public; making it exceedingly hard to change, even if you really want to. However I took the time to learn the metric system; it is so much easier to understand. And I will continue to use it, even though people politically ostracize every idea I have, I will continue to fight for the metric system.
The whole point is that you DON'T NEED to make conversions in order to use different units. If one considers a car with 300HP better than a car with 200HP, than the same person can still prefer a car with 236kW to a car with 184kW, let's say. When you go to the store and buy a vacuum cleaner, you don't ask the shopkeeper to convert the power of all the devices into HP because you cannot understand how well they will clean your apartment. I bet you can, indeed. The whole problem just lies in starting using other units: after little time, it would feel just normal. That said, I didn't wanna mean that every American should change the units they are acquainted with in a couple of days or weeks... I often read a lot of people talking quite animously about this matter here in the comments and I think it's not that important, after all! But I wanted to point out that most likely is not gonna be as difficult as most imperial units "aficionados" probably think. :)
no point in switching to the metric system. a majority of US industry is based on the imperial system , were talking about standardized equipment , if we switched to the metric system standardized industrial equipment wouldn't magically change size , it would just be some odd metric unit that included decimals.
a Tesla roadster with updated tech would be a nice comparison with a supercharged s2000 too :) there is a guy who dies his Tesla Roaster around up here in alaska
you wanna try comparing the tesla roadster to the S2000? Come on. you gotta find a gas car in a similar price point to be fair. the 2008 Roadster costed over 100k including taxes 0-60 mph 4.6 | Quarter mile 13.4 the 2008 Dodge viper was 86K 0-60 mph: 3.7 sec Quarter mile: 11.7 sec. you can bring up the new Roadster if you want. manufactures can clam whatever they want. but until consumers have it. I am not gonna assume the calmed price or 0-60 times until we have seen them first hand.
4:50 It's worth mentioning that the EV's torque starts to drop off at the point the battery has reached max output. At that point, more revolutions require lower torque to achieve the same kW from the motor. That's why the more performant variants of any specific modele EV usually has a bigger battery: more cells = more current. For example, Hyundai Kona with 39.2kWh battery produces 100kW, and with 64kWh battery produces 150kW
You're going to start seeing more and more electric motor swaps especially with better batteries. Swap that Nissan Leaf motor into a 240Z or Datsun 2000 coupe and you've got an oni that'll crush many cars more expensive and pedigreed.
One factor that isn't mentioned: the transmission. The Leaf has a single ratio, while the S2000 has to shift during the acceleration run, meaning that the acceleration is higher in the RPM range for more of the acceleration run (e.g. beyond the ~0-20 mph range) for the combustion engine.
A Leaf is on thing, you can beat it with a good ICE car. But do not try to race a Tesla, they beat most ICE cars, including supercars, and most motorcycles too.
@@SL4US in either case, you're not going to be racing the fastest gas car against the fastest electric car, because neither of them were built to handle turns. However there is no shortage of videos, showing an electric car beating gasoline cars in a race. As the saying goes; horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races.
@@SL4US Faster maybe, but you don't really need high speeds. The quickest (fastest acceleration) cars, on the other hand, are in fact electric cars. And all electric cars can accelerate significantly faster than equivalent ICE cars.
@@rahko_i Fastest Accelerating car measured by an indepentend journalist is the porsche 918 spyder (2.5 sec 0-100km without rollout / 2.1 sec 0-60 miles with one foot of rollout). Tesla is only fastest in claimed acceleration, but thats not very hard to do. Ultimately electric cars will beat that though because of low-end torque, but not by much., at least up until a point where tire grip is not the limiting factor anymore.
Thank you for another great video. With that said, every shift is adding about a half second. This means, to me, that the S2000 had quicker times for every 10MPH increment except for PERHAPS the first 10. I think this video is hard for me to watch and not feel like I'm getting a false impression. I wish you would have used an automatic transmission or quick shifted.
Went out to my local electric go kart track and had an absolute blast! All that torque from a stand-still and you can feel the little tube chassis twist. It was a quite different compared to gas. Basically it came down to being “civilized” with the throttle coming out of corners in order to make the most of traction. Opposed to trying to keep the revs up in a gas kart. Great insight as always! Thanks for sharing some tidbits from formula E
A good informative video as always, but I don't really think you explained the *why* that I was so curious about. Why is the torque curve so different?
If the electricity is garnered from renewables, electric cars are more environmental. Plus, we already have a very efficient electric grid in America, no need to build gas stations anymore in the future when most everyone will charge in their garage.
Range and weight fair enough but enviromental friendliness on a 1 to 1 basis an EV is streets ahead. Even if you were to assume the absolute worst case scenario where an EV charges off nothing but a coal fed power station it still creates less co2 per mile than even an efficient ICE. People forget how much electricity it takes to make a gallon of gas, then how much pollution transporting it causes and finally the inefficiency of any ICE creating forward motion.
Well not entirely true. Infact most development of engines is far younger than ev development. The advantages electric motors have is simply efficiency.
Fundamentally, it's about power. A car travelling at, say, 60 mph, has a certain amount of kinetic energy and you need to put that energy in to get it there. The more power you've got, the faster that happens, as power is just energy / time. The problem is that a "200 horsepower" petrol engine is only producing 200 hp at a high rpm - at, say, 2000 rpm it's probably producing half that or less. If you look at the power curve for a "high torque" engine you'll find it produces lots of power at low rpm (power is proportional to torque * rpm after all), which is why it goes quickly without any effort. There's a nice and simple relationship between power and force at the wheels (which is what makes you accelerate) - Force at wheels = Power at wheels / vehicle speed (if you're using hp and mph you'll need some unit conversion factor in there too). You can calculate the force from engine torque too, but you'll need to take gearing ratio and wheel diameter into account, so it's a little more complicated and less intuitive.
Abraham Soto that statement is becoming more and more untrue everyday. Gasoline powered cars are not advancing much anymore and definitely not at the pace of electric cars these days.
This video comes a the perfect moment for me... Last week i was driving down the highway at maybe 50 / 60 mph when a WILD Electric Kia Niro apeared ... I tried to punch it to follow him but for a few seconds my Nissan 350z couldn't catch it ... Of course that once i kicked 2 gears down and gave some revs to the engine i went flying by the Kia ... But it realy suprised me for a moment.
Question - Electric motors for industry (in the USA) are typically 3 phase/ 60 Hz/ 480V. They can be 2 pole (3600 RPM), 4 pole (1750 RPM), or 6 pole (1140 RPM). They share the same torque/power curve of constant torque up to their 60 Hz speed, then constant HP after that. The question is - what is the speed for cars in electric vehicles when it transitions from constant torque to constant horsepower?
aljowen why did the gears tear? I'm because of torque? Better materials like titanium can withstand such forces right?😅 Because having atleast two gears may increase the overall range of a EV one with short gearing for outright torque and the other with tall gearing for cruising the highway
There's a simple trick for EVs to have essentially two gears. Since electric motors are small and cheap, you can have two (or more), one on the front axle, one (or more) on the rear one. They can have different gearing, one optimized for acceleration, and the other for top speed. The new Tesla Roadster can do 0-60 under 2 seconds, and go over 255mph without switching gears.
It's not a claim, the prototype can already do it, and more. According to insiders the official specs are very conservative. There are plenty of videos from the unveiling, so you can see what it can do.
But couldn't you put a transmission on an electric motor to make the car faster? Given the torque and HP curves of the electric motor, it would make sense that adding a 2-speed gearbox would allow the electric motor to stay in optimum torque longer, thus making it faster in the long run.
My '91 toyota makes 2620 Nm (1930 ftlbs) of torque... ...at the driveshaft in 1st gear Good explanation and good thing showing that it's the power curve that makes the difference
Great video! It is surprising that they are so close in acceleration but there is a difference and I personally think that difference would be magnified if you were comparing, say, a Tesla Model S P100D vs a Ferrari 812 Superfast. Also a bit of a criticism: I think the second chart should plot power and torque against velocity up to 80mph, not RPM, since you’re shifting gears in the S2000 and only having to use the disadvantageous low RPM range of its gasoline engine in 1st gear, then stay in higher RPMs for second and third. Nonetheless great comparison video, please make more!
So, in other words, if you're out on a road race course at higher speeds, say 50+ MPH the piston engine will win. On a go-kart track (or maybe an autocross) the electric will have a big advantage.
Supercharged / modified 2-seater sports car vs quiet electric commuter car, and it still gets this result! Plus the S2K is way more work and you're probably going to get arrested going WOT everywhere because it's so loud and buzzy, not to mention how much more uncomfortable that acceleration is. Really amazing
I'm actually disappointed on the S2000, 7 seconds is slower or just as fast as 4 cilynder 2007 stock Altima (I own one of them, they are super slow) I guess the S2000 is still a great daily driver
That's not the best time it can achieve. At 6:55 you have the 0-30 with a better launch. It is almost 1 second quicker than the time it got referenced in the video, the mild launch. I have no doubt it can do 0-62 in less than 6 seconds.
Mzn T the Altimas best 0-60 isn't 7 seconds flat either, and the Altima is stock. Both go 0-60 somewhere in the 6s from a dead stop the only difference is that the Altima isn't supercharged and it's the base model, so basically a tuned V6 with a couple bolt ons will walk literally walk the car. I'm not saying Altimas is the best platform in the world I'm saying after comparing both cars it's pretty disappointing that a supercharged S2000 can't outrun a V6 Altima unless it's moded
León That may be true, I have absolutely 0 knowledge about Altimas, but who buys an S2000 for acceleration performance? There are diesels out there that would trash a supercharged S2000, but that's not the point of an S2000. Ultimately, is a fun to drive, balanced roadster that doesn't care about acceleration and top speed.
Tesla Model 3. Far more power then the Leaf, extremely fun to drive, can launch every time without ruining the clutch, reasonably priced (especially when the base model will be available), very cheap fuel and maintenance.
I just brought a leaf, race an sp23 Mazda, 350z Nissan, and a BMW x5, and none of them could pull away from the leaf, was really surprised cos it doesn't feel that fast
I was annoyed by the title of the video having a nonsensical comparison followed by only showing peak torque and peak horsepower as the stats of the vehicles. It's a good video past that though.
@@abdulazeez.98 Yeah they do what i meant was isn't it mathematically impossible to hit peak torque over 5252rpm? After that the engine should aways make less torque i thought.
Waffeey As far as I remember, after the 5252 the torque numerical value will always be less than that of horsepower. Torque graph properties depends on the design of the engine, it may increase or decrease after 5252 be won't exceed horsepower.
Normally the torque goes down because of the restricted airflow (by the intake and exhaust system). He has a supercharger on his s2000, maybe that's the reason his engine keeps increasing in torque rather than declining.
My mother has a 2018 Prius Prime, and she was telling me how it feels faster when it's in EV-only mode (when the battery is charged from the wall) than in normal hybrid mode. Now I know why.
Only a small point but there was no mention of the leaf being fwd. If the leaf was rwd too it would have made it possible to get even more power down in the early stages.
Hey Jason, do you think we should start rating cars by their "mean horsepower integral" within their usage RPM instead of peak horsepower? This would make for a fair comparison of both propusion methods. For an E-motor, you'd take the integral from 0 to max RPM, since they have only one gear. The result would be slightly less than their peak figure. For an ICE, you'd take the integral only over the RPM range the engine actually uses during WOT. So, this number will be somewhat influenced by the spacing of the transmission's gears. This will result in a mean power rating quite a bit less than their peak power, but much more representative of the vehicle's capabilities. I think that would be a more intuitive way to try to compare ICE apples to EV oranges :)
You can't buy a model 3 unless you wait 2 years or you pay 2X (or 3X) price for higher end model. Buy a BoltEV instead; it comes with proper thermal management vs no thermal control in Leaf. When on sale, they're about the same price.
i can also see aerodynamics and drag creating a greater difference at higher speeds favoring the S2K vs the Leaf just purely due to car shape, also factoring into the difference in times.
How are you measuring the RPM of the Leaf; there is no tach and no flywheel? I'm guessing the electric motor is spinning much faster than the ICE in all situations. Comparing motor revolutions in an electric motor vs. same in an ICE engine does not seem like a valid apples-to-apples comparison measurement.
Rollie Kelly how would that be relevant? He wanted to show how an ICE engine has to build power over the rpm range of each gear. This is something EVe don’t have to do and is why they are so fast at lower speeds. It also showed why they are slower at higher speeds.
The question is "what is faster". Without operating both vehicles under the same mechanical conditions, with or without transmission in this instance, there can be no definitive answer. I should not have suggested limiting the ICE to 1 gear. Instead, I should have suggested allowing the Leaf to avail itself of the same transmission, which we know wasn't available. Thus, making the whole exercise moot.
+Matthew Jenkinson I'm familiar with the math and physics. I was curious how _HE_ did it. Also, that's not how the Honda is measuring it's RPM (which are measured at/before the crank, not the wheel) so it would not be an apples-to-apples. I still don't have an answer that makes sense. What (exactly) is "RPM" in an electric car and does it make any sense to compare it to RPM in an ICE car using the same scale?
In my dream world, you'd drive a cheap older Leaf over to Chris at BIFB and have him gut and modify it so we could see the before/after performance specs. Thanks for the video!
If, hypothetically, the leaf had the same torque and horse power that it has, but the weight of the honda, I bet that it would leave the honda in the dust. Both seem fun to drive though!
@@mociczyczki I'm not sure why I thought that when I posted that comment to be honest. I know the higher horse power would win even with gear losses. Idk what I was thinking.
Electric motors are powerful enough, they don't need turbos. A Tesla P100DL already beats almost all gas cars. And the new Roadster will thoroughly beat every gas car in every way.
Francisco Sousa Handling is already excellent thanks to the low center of gravity, very good suspension and excellent traction control. The Roadster will only be better, because it doesn't have to make compromises. The Model S P100DL could already have crazy track times, but it overheats too fast, it's not designed for racing. I recently saw a test where a professional race car driver took one on the track, and not even the fastest, just an average model with zero modifications. The first thing that gave up wasn't the battery or the motors, but the brakes. The car is heavy, and reaches crazy high speeds, which is too much for the stock brakes. But based on the brief experience the driver said the car could brake all kinds of records once the overheating issue is resolved. And again, that wasn't the Roadster, and not even a P100DL, just an older P85D I think. I'm pretty sure the Roadster won't overheat. It will a monster on the tracks. And with the SpaceX package it will likely beat everything.
Whats also interesting is the 0-10,10-20, 20-30 mph numbers for the leaf are uniform, leaf takes about 1s for every 10mph , while the numbers for s2k is steadily decreasing. tells u about the const torque of the electric motor
I think that the HP curve on the Electric, also doesn't flat-line, but slowly tapers off after peak HP. There's not only increased friction to the wheels, but as the electric motor goes faster, it's HP number actually goes down (the magnetic coils have less and less time, to get maximum magnetic field to work on their opposing coils in the rotor; in other words, the faster an electric motor runs, the lower it's torque goes; and the lower it's torque, the lower HP goes). On the S2000, which I believe is forced induction, you could just increase starting RPM, before releasing the clutch, for faster acceleration. A little more clutch wear, but no transmission damage risk.
JaArRyi FleshBlood and that is perfectly fine. It's not an me vs you debate. It's a this cool for me and that might be cool for you discussion. But my god! People fight so much in chat
Great stuff as always! The Leaf would put you back in your seat with less effort than the s2k from its instant tq, but the s2k would be more fun to drive overall. Nothing quite like winding out the engine in a car thats not overly powerful. It can almost give you a false sense of acceleration bc of the revs and engine noise but cool nonetheless
“Granny shifting not double clutching like you should. Be glad that the 100 shot of NOS didn't blow the welds on the intake. Almost had me? Now me and the mad scientist here have to rip apart the block and replace the piston rings you fried. Ask any racer ANY real racer it don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winnings winning.” - for Paul.
You double clutch only when downshifting and there were no downshifts in that race. You might double clutch on upshift but it does good for you only when you hold your clutch for too long so your transmission stops (goes too slow).. still proving this quote one big engineering BS. Great movie tho
5:38 I don't quite agree. The reason the leaf is faster is it reduces its maximum torque from 0 which enables it to turn the wheels which enables it to produce power. (No movement without torque, no power without movement) A constant Torque gives it a linear power increase (should be 45 degree straight line) which an ICE car can't do because it's converting non linear torque within the engine, into non linear *power* at the engine output, then using the gearbox to reduce the revs back to produce torque at the wheels. Inefficient and non linear , unless the car starts with the engine well into the power band. (New clutch please). A single extra gear changing at 60mph and the leaf would be gone, all the way past 100mph.
Electric motors work by using electromotive force and when the motor starts to gain speed, it starts to act as a generator and produce back EMF (EMF in opposite direction) this cancels out your available EMF and so you either have to increase the EMF or the torque decreases
Electrics take all the fun out though. It's not engine building anymore, they stamp these out of assembly and that's it. The only mod might be to the battery. Where's the fun?
Most people getting Nissan Leafs probably weren't planning to mod it. You can want something that takes you from A to B, is economical, reliable, etc, and still want to have fun on the way. Electric for many people looks like the way to do that.
Sakru100 , yup. We have seen what ices van do, let us now see what evs can do. Have a look at radio control - electric has nearly completely taken over from ic.
It's only boring if you make it that way. A toyota corolla is horribly borring, but a lamborghini is the opposite. Why would you expect an electric Nissan to be less boring than a BMW?
I know you have to use the cars you have access to, but us V8 guys have torque down low and HP up high. So I'll stick with the internal combustion engine.
V8’s don’t compete with equivalent sized electric motors. He’s comparing two small cars, but if he compares two big ones, like the Hellcat and the Model S, it’s not even a competition. The Model S wins every time. They both produce nearly the same amount of power, but the Model S produces more low end power than the Hellcat because of its instant torque. ICEs just can’t beat that instant torque.
Coming from a v8 guy you're just spewing false information and fan boying. V8 torque is large compared to small ICE. But comparing the torque of a v8 vs electric is the same between gas and diesel. It's literally no comparison.
Sub 2 me or I'll call the cops, talking about gas and diesel is not quite the same as electric and ice. Though, a similarly powered diesel will accelerate slightly faster than a gas, off the line, the weight of a big diesel engine slows its acceleration, and it does not have instant torque like the electric. That’s the key, that instant toque is everything for the electric. It’s already been proven that a high torque diesel with the same power as a gas, accelerate almost equally, and that’s usually because the weight of the diesel engine nearly voids it’s low end power, compared to the gas engine. Further to that note, the gas engine usually comes out slightly ahead in the end because it’s power to weight and higher rpm power band, are more ideal for a race.
Thomas Bellis seems quite right and if you factor in the alcohol based engines you get a different profile which can produce more torque and power then a gasoline engine all around. Notice that I said an alcohol based, not a flex fuel, since a engine that can be used with regular gas has far lower compression rate then a ethanol fuel("hydrated ethanol"). Fun facts around engines, like how energy density of the fuel doesn't necessarily means more power/torque, as in how much energy the engine can produce and apply as force per unit of time.
How does the fact that the Honda has multiple gears (and also the different differential ratio) affect the calculation? Don't the lower transmission gears effectively increase the torque to the wheels while in those gears? Doesn't the higher differential ratio of the Leaf also increase the torque to the wheels throughout?
Somebody needs to apply the principles of the rotational subwoofer and careful length choices in cooling ducts to make electric cars sound amazing - the vast majority of the noise people love in IC engines is gas moving around anyway, electric cars are still pumping gas around for cooling - they could sound great.
This is a good video that addresses something that's never spoken about with electric cars. Whilst they may have instant torque and are quicker off the mark, in real world use that is of very little benefit, unless you just love racing from the traffic lights. Every electric car I have driven has felt disappointing when accelerating from say 60kph to 80kph, or 80kph to 100kph, the kind of accelerating that actually matters in real life. I especially noted how poor a particular electric car accelerated from 50kph whilst going up hills compared to my crappy 20 year old turbo diesel car. It seem's electric cars sound good on paper, but in real world situations than can be found lacking. I'm sure someone will bring up a Tesla, but I'm talking about a Nissan Leaf or equivalent compared to the likes of a VW Golf etc.
I would disagree completely. Electric cars offer great acceleration, without any delays for downshifting or the lack of smoothness. This is a 150 hp car with significantly more weight, and it offers great acceleration in the useable range (0-60 mph), where people are always driving, even when compared to the lighter, more powerful S2000.
@@EngineeringExplained correct me if I am wrong, but based on the times shown from 20-50mph, 30-50mph, 50-80mph and everything in-between the s2000 was faster, the leaf was only faster from 10-20mph and 10-30mphs. Basically trying to say that unless it was from 0mph (so a rolling start the s2000) was faster. In my opinion and daily driving I'm not particularly interested in acceleration from a dead stop, but acceleration in situations of over taking, coming out of a corner, or going into a faster speed zone. Hence my experience of finding electric cars "gutless" is real driving conditions that aren't stop start. I haven't seen any tests showing this data.
What's surprising for myself is to see an S2K getting a 7 second 0-60 after having quite a few parts thrown at it. Compare that to say a 2005-6 Cobalt SS with 205HP at the crank, it can muster 6 seconds. I would believe it has a lot as stated to do with where the power is made. Shockingly, after driving a few forced induced vehicles, from my Talon TSI that I sold this past winter to a Cobalt SS SC that I test drove last fall it's amazing how vehicles with...especially 4 cylinders can vary so greatly on the track. It felt like in my TSI there was lag for days and it made similar power at similar RPM's, but yet, the Cobalt SS would absolutely walk my TSI. Granted, the TSI was completely stock, but the numbers were very similar with 210HP and 2?? something torque and the SS's 205HP and 200 or so pounds feet.
A few years from now, the salvage yards are going to be full of electric and hybrid cars that were junked because their owners couldn't afford to replace the batteries.
Modern batteries with thermal management systems are commonly warrantied until 100,000 miles. Performance degradation starts around that time but the car'll still drive to 150k or 200k
Gouada I expect there'll also be a growing aftermarket for battery pack replacements, when people realize that the car will go another 200K no problem with a new battery pack and maybe some suspension parts. That should drive down costs a bit too.
EVs have been running for many years already. Longer than anyone said the batteries would last. Where are the salvage yards? EVs going furhter than 500k miles on a single battery are well documented. And the behaviour of the batteries of many 10s of 1000s of miles is well measured -> and it exceeds the expectations of even the biggest proponents of electric vehicles 6 years ago. And they just keep getting better.
You do realize that the Prius has been on the road for almost 2 decades now, and you can find them running with the original battery (albeit not as strong). And you do realize that a new battery is usually cheaper than a new engine, right? Like you've never heard of an engine failing. The facts are through what we've seen is that batteries are more reliable and way cheaper to use. The cost of oil changes throughout the life of a combustion engine is worth 2 brand new batteries in a EV or hybrid. Then you still gotta buy the engine.
The problem with battery powered electric cars is drag racing once it wins, drag racing all day long, it lost half and can't go home. Don't get me wrong, i love electric cars just prefer something like feul-cell powered rather than battery.
... k It depends on everything. Where's the nearest local charger, does the track have chargers, or which car you use. There's plenty who drag Model Ses who find their way home. Laguna Seca has had a yearly electric race series for almost a decade now, the Refuel race series. They usually provide charging there.
This issue will be fixed very soon in 2020-2021 by Solid State Batteries which will have much more density, it means more lightweight (so less discharge to move at the same speed), reload much faster, 80% recharge in a single minute and this is only be the beginning of this technology and they are much safer, they aren't flammable and do not heat (they can replace cooling to add more batteries or make the car even lighter). They can also discharge faster than lithium-ion to increase the torque to beat the 1.9s 0-60 mph of the Tesla Roadster. Dyson, Hyundai, Tesla and more are working on it even German manufacturers that were mostly using gasoline. Samsung should be the first to use it in their Smartphone in 2019, but I am not sure since the Galaxy S10 will be released in early 2019, we will see an huge difference if they use it like charging it few minutes for weeks of battery. Those batteries will also be used to increase a lot flying cars' range. And of course the price will continue to drop quickly because the demand will explode, they will have more range than combustion cars and charging will be free at malls and electric engines need much less maintenance so they will be economic and reliable.
most tracks have substantial power in the paddock garages... it's simple to connect a bank of chargers to this power source... we're using 10 Tesla chargers for a portable 120kW 'supercharger' for our competition cars :-)
Electric vehicle manufacturers need to work on light weight battery technology to have longer range/acceleration ( solid state battery could help the cause a bit)
Balaji Chandrasekaran So far, for the last 8 years, everyone has been demanding for more capacity and power density, and faster charging. There hasn't been that much demand, although every car makers' investment in solid state electrolyte (Li-poly) is promising. In the automotive world, "lightweight" batteries aren't that common, especially when you consider most of the weight is in the metal packaging of the whole pack and surrounding individuals modules. But that doesn't mean the chassis of cars are getting lighter and smaller either. This is where the BMW i3 comes in, using CFRP in its body allowed weight reduction, and an efficiency gain. The engineers then further reduced the need for battery size, thus more weight reduction and efficiency gain and so on.
he doesn't event talk about Tesla in the video lmao. I feel like the annoying people who are obsessed with Tesla are the same types of people who care so much about hating it.
I agree with the switch to International System of measurements. You are probably my favorite car-oriented channel, because you are based on facts, but it would improve if you moved (progressively) to standardized units
Matthew Ducker ngl if you could buy an electric car with a manual gearbox, that'd be so cool and none of this regenerative braking crap, use driving skills such as threshold braking.
To be honest, still more borring than a internal combustion, since learn to use the acceleration pedal and not just floor it is still more skills ;) Also, even internal combustion cars are hard to find with manual gear now days :(
I'm guessing you haven't actually driven one. If you had, you'd know that regenerative braking is much like engine braking but more consistent and predictable, and also gives you more power (and if you really dislike it, you can disable it) - and that you'd know that there is more than just slamming the accelerator to the floor. Give it a chance/try, you'll likely be surprised. No need to buy one, just rent one for a day, or even take a test drive. Worth it just so you actually know what you're criticising. Re: manual, yeah I'm guessing that manual and auto gearboxes will be a popular aftermarket modification for electrics. People that say there is no mod scene for electrics are dead wrong... it's just different, and early in its history (consider that ICE had a pretty boring early history too!). It will be just as rich and varied as ICE cars.
e36s54 Dude..its really nice when you get to drive in peace and quiet/zero engine vibration with or without tunes when you're looking for comfort as a daily to/from work. Have you ever TRIED that? The power is amazing in Tesla's too, the acceleration is crazy. I can easily see us car guys having electric daily and a crazy ICE build for fun that wouldn't make for a good daily, but let us push our ICe's even further.
Aerodynamic drag is proportional to the square of the vehicle's velocity. Because the S2000 has an increasing torque curve, it is able to match the drag force and continue accelerating at high rpm.
Anyway on a racetrack you will go at least 25mph and if you have a combustion engine in the first gear (from 25 not from 0), it will have enough power to accelerate. The e motor has the greatest advantage in terms of reliability (since you don't wear any clutches) only from standstill. There is another interesting option for an electric motor, a torque converter. Koenigsegg uses it on a hybrid platform.
Interesting video, thanks. Can someone explain what the “sport mode” does on my Chevy Bolt? Is it just increasing sensitivity of the accelerator pedal? Also, it would be interesting to compare stopping distances with EV using one pedal driving, too.
Everywhere the car accelerates faster it makes more power than a same weight car regardless of the engine torque. Even comparing two electric motors with very different max torque ratings they can accelerate the same way with proper gearbox ratio. One can be high torque the other high rpm motor. For example you can have 200Nm motor form 0-15000 and another 400Nm 0-7500rpm. If you set up the first with 2x higher ratio they will perform equally. Also the 200Nm motor will have strong pull from standstill just like the 400Nm one. Then why not 2x for the 400Nm one? You can do it, you can then do 4x for the 200 and they will perform equally to top speed. These motors make about the same horsepower so no matter what you do you can match the performance with the 200Nm one.
so true bro 👌🏻 once he geared hees s2000 optimal it would leave in the dust this leaf from stand still all the way to max velocity only issue is traction at start which is limited be tire grip 👌🏻in fact he could beat this leaf already just be start from biger rpm 🫣 all this comaprision is pointless and misleading 🫣 people which dont egzacly know what depend on what 100 nm at engine crank which generate 200 hp at let say 100 km/h exert more G force and push you harder into seat than feg 200 nm and 100 hp at engine crank at thesame vehicle velocity 🤷🏻♂️ power win races 100% 👌🏻 big torque down low is good for daily elasticity riding personally also prefer as daily more elastic engine with less peak hp for racing with less gears 🤷🏻♂️👌🏻 and most avg driver also 👌🏻thats why i buy as me next bike ntv 650 56 nm 56 hp but not bandit 600 s which have inline 4 engine 54 nm 78 hp it beat ntv in drag race despite is heavier 210 vs 230 kg but up to 7-8 k rpm produce less power and torq and have 6 gear vs ntv 5 👌🏻 b600s hit 0-60 mph in 4 sec vs ntv in 5 sec vmax 175 vs 200 km/h but each open throtle in daily riding between 2-7 k rpm and b600 s is not very impressive 🤷🏻♂️👌🏻you need to hold b6s at higher rpm than it moves better than ntv but i dont like such type of driving with alot reduction and hold engine at big rpm 🤷🏻♂️
VTEC kicked in yo
Ja son
YOW!!!
Ja son you sound so down with that tone
He had such an opportunity to at 5:59 instead of saying 'it gets in _its_ sweet spot' to say 'this is when VTEC kicks in, yo'.
1:55 "in the real world, you're not going to be dumping the clutch at every stoplight that you get to".... that's where you're wrong. 😂
JMassa wait, most people don’t launch their car at every stop? What lame-o-s
So how many stoplights does your clutch last?
Every stoplight is an opportunity!
Everyone else hating, get real. Not everything ever said by everyone, especially on the internet, is to be taken as factual or serious. There's satire and sarcasm, Google those two words, learn about them. It'll make your life so much easier.
yep, i will be dumping clutch everytime i want to launch fast and everytime i want to destroy an oponent at the traffic lights :)
If youtube allowed picture comments I would be posting a Gif of the guy shelling out cash, but have clutches insted of dollars.
Great video as always. I'm surprised you didn't mention how shifting gears manually also slows the acceleration of the s2000, while the leaf doesn't waste time shifting.
Electric cars feel much faster with that torque, but still not having that exhaust sound is like playing a racing game on mute lol.
Yes like a a game on mute
Because you can simulate gravity on a racing game
Without the loud engine, it's a totally different track experience.. you can feel things better and hear the tires etc and be more in touch with the car. Loud noise is what everyone is used to and associate with testosterone though I get it. Daily driving when I pass someone on a highway with my foot down I don't feel like as much of a dick as before when the engine is rev'd way up. For passing instant torque is better too, don't have to plan it and rev up or lose time down shifting and give yourself as much room.
Chevy 2017 volt
250 miles per gallon of gas overall mileage
A chart taking in to account the RPM changing when you change gear in the S2000 would also be interesting.
Speed vs power if you're in the perfect gear.
Please just switch to metric, you can be a pioneer and maybe the whole country will follow you.
FvGa i went to ASU for mechanical engineering and a majority of our units were in metric, not sure why the rest of us are so stuck on standard units🤷♂️
At least, we get both of them and not just Imperial. I live in a country where Metric is used for everything. However, for vehicles power, I use HP and not KW and is very hard to switch to Metric since all my reference points in terms of power are in Imperial. I actually understand people having difficulties switching to Metric after they have used their entire life Imperial units. Yeah, you can do it, but you'll always make conversions in your head to match you references.
At least he does give the measurements in metric.
In my country, the metric system was promised as the way forward; then the government made no actual plan to implement the system in public; making it exceedingly hard to change, even if you really want to.
However I took the time to learn the metric system; it is so much easier to understand. And I will continue to use it, even though people politically ostracize every idea I have, I will continue to fight for the metric system.
The whole point is that you DON'T NEED to make conversions in order to use different units. If one considers a car with 300HP better than a car with 200HP, than the same person can still prefer a car with 236kW to a car with 184kW, let's say. When you go to the store and buy a vacuum cleaner, you don't ask the shopkeeper to convert the power of all the devices into HP because you cannot understand how well they will clean your apartment. I bet you can, indeed. The whole problem just lies in starting using other units: after little time, it would feel just normal.
That said, I didn't wanna mean that every American should change the units they are acquainted with in a couple of days or weeks... I often read a lot of people talking quite animously about this matter here in the comments and I think it's not that important, after all! But I wanted to point out that most likely is not gonna be as difficult as most imperial units "aficionados" probably think. :)
no point in switching to the metric system. a majority of US industry is based on the imperial system , were talking about standardized equipment , if we switched to the metric system standardized industrial equipment wouldn't magically change size , it would just be some odd metric unit that included decimals.
a 1st gen tesla roadster would be a interesting comparison for the s2000. someone loan him one O_O
I second that!
1st gen not the new one
a Tesla roadster with updated tech would be a nice comparison with a supercharged s2000 too :) there is a guy who dies his Tesla Roaster around up here in alaska
you wanna try comparing the tesla roadster to the S2000? Come on. you gotta find a gas car in a similar price point to be fair. the 2008 Roadster costed over 100k including taxes 0-60 mph 4.6 | Quarter mile 13.4 the 2008 Dodge viper was 86K 0-60 mph: 3.7 sec Quarter mile: 11.7 sec. you can bring up the new Roadster if you want. manufactures can clam whatever they want. but until consumers have it. I am not gonna assume the calmed price or 0-60 times until we have seen them first hand.
Doesn't it cost 3-4 times as much as an S2000, new? Come on...
4:50 It's worth mentioning that the EV's torque starts to drop off at the point the battery has reached max output. At that point, more revolutions require lower torque to achieve the same kW from the motor. That's why the more performant variants of any specific modele EV usually has a bigger battery: more cells = more current. For example, Hyundai Kona with 39.2kWh battery produces 100kW, and with 64kWh battery produces 150kW
You're going to start seeing more and more electric motor swaps especially with better batteries. Swap that Nissan Leaf motor into a 240Z or Datsun 2000 coupe and you've got an oni that'll crush many cars more expensive and pedigreed.
One factor that isn't mentioned: the transmission. The Leaf has a single ratio, while the S2000 has to shift during the acceleration run, meaning that the acceleration is higher in the RPM range for more of the acceleration run (e.g. beyond the ~0-20 mph range) for the combustion engine.
I still dig that VTEC kicking in!
Steam makes better torque
but you need some big ass engine.
bitkarek no steam cars make over 1000 ft-lbs
Or just dump an 4000 nm Cat c15 semi truck engine into the s2000.
@@angrysocialjusticewarrior Metric nerd joke: that is one tiny engine.
@@LeslieStroobant That's hilarious, if you could get one horsepower out of each one you'd get 1*10^24 HP/Liter though
I love the look on people's faces when I blow by them in my Leaf and they were expecting to be faster. 😂
You already know this, but your whiteboard explanations are brilliant! Really clear and well explained!
Ok, so no showing off around Leafs and Priuses cause I might get trashed. Got it :))
Mzn T If you drive anything quicker than a Civic (basically anything reasonably quick for 2018), I think you’ll be good...
Rohan Iyer Believe me, he won't. We've got a lot of electric smarts around town here and even they outperform almost any ICE car from 0-50km/h.
A Leaf is on thing, you can beat it with a good ICE car. But do not try to race a Tesla, they beat most ICE cars, including supercars, and most motorcycles too.
Well I mean if you got 320 horsepower under the hood like me then I'd say your good.
I could run faster than that leaf 🐌
A yellow 2002 S200 is a very drool-worthy car, in my opinion. Such a beautiful machine!
You are comparing a sports car to a family drive car, and the family car is doing alright.
The fastest electric car is still slower than the fastest gas powered car so it doesn't matter regardless
@@SL4US in either case, you're not going to be racing the fastest gas car against the fastest electric car, because neither of them were built to handle turns. However there is no shortage of videos, showing an electric car beating gasoline cars in a race. As the saying goes; horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races.
@@SL4US Tesla Roadster second generation 0 to 60 2.5 seconds
@@SL4US Faster maybe, but you don't really need high speeds. The quickest (fastest acceleration) cars, on the other hand, are in fact electric cars. And all electric cars can accelerate significantly faster than equivalent ICE cars.
@@rahko_i Fastest Accelerating car measured by an indepentend journalist is the porsche 918 spyder (2.5 sec 0-100km without rollout / 2.1 sec 0-60 miles with one foot of rollout). Tesla is only fastest in claimed acceleration, but thats not very hard to do.
Ultimately electric cars will beat that though because of low-end torque, but not by much., at least up until a point where tire grip is not the limiting factor anymore.
This was actually quite informative. The results went roughly as I would have expected given the numbers but still very good information.
Thank you for another great video. With that said, every shift is adding about a half second. This means, to me, that the S2000 had quicker times for every 10MPH increment except for PERHAPS the first 10. I think this video is hard for me to watch and not feel like I'm getting a false impression. I wish you would have used an automatic transmission or quick shifted.
Went out to my local electric go kart track and had an absolute blast! All that torque from a stand-still and you can feel the little tube chassis twist. It was a quite different compared to gas. Basically it came down to being “civilized” with the throttle coming out of corners in order to make the most of traction. Opposed to trying to keep the revs up in a gas kart. Great insight as always! Thanks for sharing some tidbits from formula E
A good informative video as always, but I don't really think you explained the *why* that I was so curious about. Why is the torque curve so different?
I almost stopped watching the second I saw you were comparing an s2000 to a leaf, but I’m glad I stayed lol. Interesting stuff for sure.
The battle was over long long time ago. What ever advantage gas cars have do not have anything to do with performance, its all about energy storage.
If the electricity is garnered from renewables, electric cars are more environmental. Plus, we already have a very efficient electric grid in America, no need to build gas stations anymore in the future when most everyone will charge in their garage.
Range and weight fair enough but enviromental friendliness on a 1 to 1 basis an EV is streets ahead.
Even if you were to assume the absolute worst case scenario where an EV charges off nothing but a coal fed power station it still creates less co2 per mile than even an efficient ICE.
People forget how much electricity it takes to make a gallon of gas, then how much pollution transporting it causes and finally the inefficiency of any ICE creating forward motion.
Actually Teslas have pretty good ranges and not heavier than comparable gas cars. I had a gas car with less range than a Model 3.
Well not entirely true. Infact most development of engines is far younger than ev development. The advantages electric motors have is simply efficiency.
Fundamentally, it's about power. A car travelling at, say, 60 mph, has a certain amount of kinetic energy and you need to put that energy in to get it there. The more power you've got, the faster that happens, as power is just energy / time. The problem is that a "200 horsepower" petrol engine is only producing 200 hp at a high rpm - at, say, 2000 rpm it's probably producing half that or less. If you look at the power curve for a "high torque" engine you'll find it produces lots of power at low rpm (power is proportional to torque * rpm after all), which is why it goes quickly without any effort.
There's a nice and simple relationship between power and force at the wheels (which is what makes you accelerate) - Force at wheels = Power at wheels / vehicle speed (if you're using hp and mph you'll need some unit conversion factor in there too). You can calculate the force from engine torque too, but you'll need to take gearing ratio and wheel diameter into account, so it's a little more complicated and less intuitive.
Electric Cars... MONSTER acceleration and so much POWEEEEEERRR.... ohhhh yeaaahhh!!!!
BrunoPOWEEER
Poweeeeeeeeeeeeeeer!!!
Bruno power!!! What you say of Tesla roadster 2020? 1.9 seconds 0-100km/h more than 400km/h top speed! That thing have so much poooooooowwwwwwwwer!!!
a lot of power for a very little time.
Yes Bruno!!!
Abraham Soto that statement is becoming more and more untrue everyday. Gasoline powered cars are not advancing much anymore and definitely not at the pace of electric cars these days.
This video comes a the perfect moment for me... Last week i was driving down the highway at maybe 50 / 60 mph when a WILD Electric Kia Niro apeared ... I tried to punch it to follow him but for a few seconds my Nissan 350z couldn't catch it ...
Of course that once i kicked 2 gears down and gave some revs to the engine i went flying by the Kia ... But it realy suprised me for a moment.
1:55 That's where you're wrong, kiddo
Question - Electric motors for industry (in the USA) are typically 3 phase/ 60 Hz/ 480V. They can be 2 pole (3600 RPM), 4 pole (1750 RPM), or 6 pole (1140 RPM). They share the same torque/power curve of constant torque up to their 60 Hz speed, then constant HP after that. The question is - what is the speed for cars in electric vehicles when it transitions from constant torque to constant horsepower?
I have presume from dyno chart that electric cars has quick acceleration but slower top speed than ICE cars.
Govin Lock they can have higher top speed but their acceleration is very slow.
aljowen why did the gears tear? I'm because of torque? Better materials like titanium can withstand such forces right?😅
Because having atleast two gears may increase the overall range of a EV one with short gearing for outright torque and the other with tall gearing for cruising the highway
There's a simple trick for EVs to have essentially two gears. Since electric motors are small and cheap, you can have two (or more), one on the front axle, one (or more) on the rear one. They can have different gearing, one optimized for acceleration, and the other for top speed. The new Tesla Roadster can do 0-60 under 2 seconds, and go over 255mph without switching gears.
It's not a claim, the prototype can already do it, and more. According to insiders the official specs are very conservative.
There are plenty of videos from the unveiling, so you can see what it can do.
András Bíró that's actually how tesla does it with their dual motor cars. The smaller front motor does more of the work on the highway.
Thank you that you use metric system for those live in Europe
Quicker? Electric Torque.
Faster? Combustion Horsepower.
But couldn't you put a transmission on an electric motor to make the car faster? Given the torque and HP curves of the electric motor, it would make sense that adding a 2-speed gearbox would allow the electric motor to stay in optimum torque longer, thus making it faster in the long run.
@@NateLeePhillips it depends on total torque output vs current gear set vs rev range.
Remember less gearing requires more torque
Hotel? Trivago.
Conclusion: use both to make car go really fast.
My '91 toyota makes 2620 Nm (1930 ftlbs) of torque...
...at the driveshaft
in 1st gear
Good explanation and good thing showing that it's the power curve that makes the difference
Great video! It is surprising that they are so close in acceleration but there is a difference and I personally think that difference would be magnified if you were comparing, say, a Tesla Model S P100D vs a Ferrari 812 Superfast. Also a bit of a criticism: I think the second chart should plot power and torque against velocity up to 80mph, not RPM, since you’re shifting gears in the S2000 and only having to use the disadvantageous low RPM range of its gasoline engine in 1st gear, then stay in higher RPMs for second and third. Nonetheless great comparison video, please make more!
So, in other words, if you're out on a road race course at higher speeds, say 50+ MPH the piston engine will win. On a go-kart track (or maybe an autocross) the electric will have a big advantage.
ETEC kicked in ey
Supercharged / modified 2-seater sports car vs quiet electric commuter car, and it still gets this result! Plus the S2K is way more work and you're probably going to get arrested going WOT everywhere because it's so loud and buzzy, not to mention how much more uncomfortable that acceleration is. Really amazing
I'm actually disappointed on the S2000, 7 seconds is slower or just as fast as 4 cilynder 2007 stock Altima (I own one of them, they are super slow) I guess the S2000 is still a great daily driver
That's not the best time it can achieve. At 6:55 you have the 0-30 with a better launch. It is almost 1 second quicker than the time it got referenced in the video, the mild launch. I have no doubt it can do 0-62 in less than 6 seconds.
Mzn T the Altimas best 0-60 isn't 7 seconds flat either, and the Altima is stock. Both go 0-60 somewhere in the 6s from a dead stop the only difference is that the Altima isn't supercharged and it's the base model, so basically a tuned V6 with a couple bolt ons will walk literally walk the car. I'm not saying Altimas is the best platform in the world I'm saying after comparing both cars it's pretty disappointing that a supercharged S2000 can't outrun a V6 Altima unless it's moded
León
That may be true, I have absolutely 0 knowledge about Altimas, but who buys an S2000 for acceleration performance? There are diesels out there that would trash a supercharged S2000, but that's not the point of an S2000. Ultimately, is a fun to drive, balanced roadster that doesn't care about acceleration and top speed.
Tesla Model 3. Far more power then the Leaf, extremely fun to drive, can launch every time without ruining the clutch, reasonably priced (especially when the base model will be available), very cheap fuel and maintenance.
I just brought a leaf, race an sp23 Mazda, 350z Nissan, and a BMW x5, and none of them could pull away from the leaf, was really surprised cos it doesn't feel that fast
I was annoyed by the title of the video having a nonsensical comparison followed by only showing peak torque and peak horsepower as the stats of the vehicles. It's a good video past that though.
Interesting that he graphed peak torque at 9k rpms on the S2000 which doesn't make sense. Hp and Tq should cross at 5252 no?
Waffeey
It's indeed crossing at 5252. Look at the doted red line (torque) and the normal red line (HP), they cross just after the 5k rpm.
@@abdulazeez.98 Yeah they do what i meant was isn't it mathematically impossible to hit peak torque over 5252rpm? After that the engine should aways make less torque i thought.
Waffeey
As far as I remember, after the 5252 the torque numerical value will always be less than that of horsepower. Torque graph properties depends on the design of the engine, it may increase or decrease after 5252 be won't exceed horsepower.
Normally the torque goes down because of the restricted airflow (by the intake and exhaust system). He has a supercharger on his s2000, maybe that's the reason his engine keeps increasing in torque rather than declining.
My mother has a 2018 Prius Prime, and she was telling me how it feels faster when it's in EV-only mode (when the battery is charged from the wall) than in normal hybrid mode. Now I know why.
Another great video as always thank you Jason. Maybe you could do a video explaining how only American cars can run off a liquid gas?
For Leaf though Torque stays the same at higher RPM, but efficiency losses as ROM goes up, thus adding gear helps
A supercharged S2K is a 7 second 0-60?
Yeah it should be much faster. Maybe they have a bad final drive ratio?
not launching
Normal clutching and then flooring it from low revs in 1st
7s is bad even for stock lol
That was just a full tank of lo-grade gasoline.
Tire/track temp not optimal.
He didn't launch the car.
Only a small point but there was no mention of the leaf being fwd. If the leaf was rwd too it would have made it possible to get even more power down in the early stages.
Drive it in reverse
Electric motors on initial take off are always going to be ahead.
SDD525 Its just vaporware right now. We'll just have to wait and see if the engineers can live up to their CEO's big claims.
Hey Jason, do you think we should start rating cars by their "mean horsepower integral" within their usage RPM instead of peak horsepower? This would make for a fair comparison of both propusion methods.
For an E-motor, you'd take the integral from 0 to max RPM, since they have only one gear. The result would be slightly less than their peak figure.
For an ICE, you'd take the integral only over the RPM range the engine actually uses during WOT. So, this number will be somewhat influenced by the spacing of the transmission's gears. This will result in a mean power rating quite a bit less than their peak power, but much more representative of the vehicle's capabilities.
I think that would be a more intuitive way to try to compare ICE apples to EV oranges :)
Good grief. Buying a Leaf
Matthew spowage buy a model 3 instead.
You can't buy a model 3 unless you wait 2 years or you pay 2X (or 3X) price for higher end model. Buy a BoltEV instead; it comes with proper thermal management vs no thermal control in Leaf. When on sale, they're about the same price.
i can also see aerodynamics and drag creating a greater difference at higher speeds favoring the S2K vs the Leaf just purely due to car shape, also factoring into the difference in times.
How are you measuring the RPM of the Leaf; there is no tach and no flywheel? I'm guessing the electric motor is spinning much faster than the ICE in all situations. Comparing motor revolutions in an electric motor vs. same in an ICE engine does not seem like a valid apples-to-apples comparison measurement.
To have been a truly revealing test the S2000 would have been limited to top gear only.
Rollie Kelly how would that be relevant? He wanted to show how an ICE engine has to build power over the rpm range of each gear. This is something EVe don’t have to do and is why they are so fast at lower speeds. It also showed why they are slower at higher speeds.
The question is "what is faster". Without operating both vehicles under the same mechanical conditions, with or without transmission in this instance, there can be no definitive answer. I should not have suggested limiting the ICE to 1 gear. Instead, I should have suggested allowing the Leaf to avail itself of the same transmission, which we know wasn't available. Thus, making the whole exercise moot.
It would be relatively simple - speed, divided by circumference of wheel, multiplied by the final (only) ratio of the differential = rpm
+Matthew Jenkinson I'm familiar with the math and physics. I was curious how _HE_ did it. Also, that's not how the Honda is measuring it's RPM (which are measured at/before the crank, not the wheel) so it would not be an apples-to-apples. I still don't have an answer that makes sense. What (exactly) is "RPM" in an electric car and does it make any sense to compare it to RPM in an ICE car using the same scale?
In my dream world, you'd drive a cheap older Leaf over to Chris at BIFB and have him gut and modify it so we could see the before/after performance specs. Thanks for the video!
looking like Gummby in the green shirt lol
If, hypothetically, the leaf had the same torque and horse power that it has, but the weight of the honda, I bet that it would leave the honda in the dust. Both seem fun to drive though!
No .
@@mociczyczki I'm not sure why I thought that when I posted that comment to be honest. I know the higher horse power would win even with gear losses. Idk what I was thinking.
6 turbos. can't get that in electric can ya? :P
also vtec
Electric motors are powerful enough, they don't need turbos. A Tesla P100DL already beats almost all gas cars. And the new Roadster will thoroughly beat every gas car in every way.
András Bíró in every way? 😂😂😂👌👌
@@andrasbiro3007 beat in what?! 0-60?! Since when is that the only factor, what about top speed, track times, dynamic handling?!
Francisco Sousa
Handling is already excellent thanks to the low center of gravity, very good suspension and excellent traction control. The Roadster will only be better, because it doesn't have to make compromises.
The Model S P100DL could already have crazy track times, but it overheats too fast, it's not designed for racing. I recently saw a test where a professional race car driver took one on the track, and not even the fastest, just an average model with zero modifications. The first thing that gave up wasn't the battery or the motors, but the brakes. The car is heavy, and reaches crazy high speeds, which is too much for the stock brakes.
But based on the brief experience the driver said the car could brake all kinds of records once the overheating issue is resolved. And again, that wasn't the Roadster, and not even a P100DL, just an older P85D I think.
I'm pretty sure the Roadster won't overheat. It will a monster on the tracks. And with the SpaceX package it will likely beat everything.
lots of details, great insights, thanks a lot!!!
Wait, you don't red line it and dump the clutch at every single stop light and stop sign? But vtec yo
Whats also interesting is the 0-10,10-20, 20-30 mph numbers for the leaf are uniform, leaf takes about 1s for every 10mph , while the numbers for s2k is steadily decreasing. tells u about the const torque of the electric motor
Love the noise😎
VEDEM RACING they sound like dental drills.
I think that the HP curve on the Electric, also doesn't flat-line, but slowly tapers off after peak HP.
There's not only increased friction to the wheels, but as the electric motor goes faster, it's HP number actually goes down (the magnetic coils have less and less time, to get maximum magnetic field to work on their opposing coils in the rotor; in other words, the faster an electric motor runs, the lower it's torque goes; and the lower it's torque, the lower HP goes).
On the S2000, which I believe is forced induction, you could just increase starting RPM, before releasing the clutch, for faster acceleration.
A little more clutch wear, but no transmission damage risk.
I still like gas engines
JaArRyi FleshBlood and that is perfectly fine. It's not an me vs you debate. It's a this cool for me and that might be cool for you discussion. But my god! People fight so much in chat
Mustafa Hasan I don’t fight in chats tho
JaArRyi FleshBlood
I like liquid gas engines too
E-85 for me.
Casey Stoner if they run on lng then that’s better
Great stuff as always! The Leaf would put you back in your seat with less effort than the s2k from its instant tq, but the s2k would be more fun to drive overall. Nothing quite like winding out the engine in a car thats not overly powerful. It can almost give you a false sense of acceleration bc of the revs and engine noise but cool nonetheless
“Granny shifting not double clutching like you should. Be glad that the 100 shot of NOS didn't blow the welds on the intake. Almost had me? Now me and the mad scientist here have to rip apart the block and replace the piston rings you fried. Ask any racer ANY real racer it don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winnings winning.” - for Paul.
Mr. Sleep, Dude, that is too dope! Thank you for that classic Mark Vincent!
You double clutch only when downshifting and there were no downshifts in that race. You might double clutch on upshift but it does good for you only when you hold your clutch for too long so your transmission stops (goes too slow).. still proving this quote one big engineering BS. Great movie tho
5:38
I don't quite agree.
The reason the leaf is faster is it reduces its maximum torque from 0 which enables it to turn the wheels which enables it to produce power. (No movement without torque, no power without movement) A constant Torque gives it a linear power increase (should be 45 degree straight line) which an ICE car can't do because it's converting non linear torque within the engine, into non linear *power* at the engine output, then using the gearbox to reduce the revs back to produce torque at the wheels.
Inefficient and non linear , unless the car starts with the engine well into the power band. (New clutch please).
A single extra gear changing at 60mph and the leaf would be gone, all the way past 100mph.
Why does the electric motor torque drop off rather than stay flat?
SportyandMisty because of limiting HP. Since P= T x w. As speed increases Torque must be decreasing for the same power.
Does that mean the engineers intentionally limit HP by decreasing torque output at higher RPM? If yes, Why?
Electric motors work by using electromotive force and when the motor starts to gain speed, it starts to act as a generator and produce back EMF (EMF in opposite direction) this cancels out your available EMF and so you either have to increase the EMF or the torque decreases
Mustafa Hasan
This is correct and a great explanation.
mustafa, thanks for the explanation!
pretty simple answer, HAVING BOTH !
Electrics take all the fun out though. It's not engine building anymore, they stamp these out of assembly and that's it. The only mod might be to the battery. Where's the fun?
you clearly have never played with electric rc cars
Most people getting Nissan Leafs probably weren't planning to mod it. You can want something that takes you from A to B, is economical, reliable, etc, and still want to have fun on the way. Electric for many people looks like the way to do that.
Super Mario Diagnostics if you think the only mod is a battery, you might be lacking a bit of creativity.
What mods would you do with your own hands on an electric vehicle? Easy to talk about.
John Scarce you are correct, i never played with rc cars. And I'm no engineer. But really where's the fun?
Should've mentioned that it's supercharged for your new subscribers. Made the comparison more intriguing. Another great vid 👍🏽
I think electric cars are way more interesting 😄
Sakru100 , yup. We have seen what ices van do, let us now see what evs can do. Have a look at radio control - electric has nearly completely taken over from ic.
interesting but BOOORING
I'll be driving an ICE until the gov gets me.
It's only boring if you make it that way. A toyota corolla is horribly borring, but a lamborghini is the opposite. Why would you expect an electric Nissan to be less boring than a BMW?
The "Tesla smile" is a real thing. I have yet to have someone new to EV's not smile and laugh when I floor it
You say power/weight ratio while the numbers are weight/power ratio. Sorry for nitpicking. Awesome video like always!
I know you have to use the cars you have access to, but us V8 guys have torque down low and HP up high. So I'll stick with the internal combustion engine.
V8’s don’t compete with equivalent sized electric motors. He’s comparing two small cars, but if he compares two big ones, like the Hellcat and the Model S, it’s not even a competition. The Model S wins every time. They both produce nearly the same amount of power, but the Model S produces more low end power than the Hellcat because of its instant torque. ICEs just can’t beat that instant torque.
Your V8 torque down low is nothing compared to a bigger electric motor like in P100D or something similar. This is the way electric engines are.
Coming from a v8 guy you're just spewing false information and fan boying.
V8 torque is large compared to small ICE. But comparing the torque of a v8 vs electric is the same between gas and diesel. It's literally no comparison.
Sub 2 me or I'll call the cops, talking about gas and diesel is not quite the same as electric and ice. Though, a similarly powered diesel will accelerate slightly faster than a gas, off the line, the weight of a big diesel engine slows its acceleration, and it does not have instant torque like the electric. That’s the key, that instant toque is everything for the electric. It’s already been proven that a high torque diesel with the same power as a gas, accelerate almost equally, and that’s usually because the weight of the diesel engine nearly voids it’s low end power, compared to the gas engine. Further to that note, the gas engine usually comes out slightly ahead in the end because it’s power to weight and higher rpm power band, are more ideal for a race.
Thomas Bellis seems quite right and if you factor in the alcohol based engines you get a different profile which can produce more torque and power then a gasoline engine all around. Notice that I said an alcohol based, not a flex fuel, since a engine that can be used with regular gas has far lower compression rate then a ethanol fuel("hydrated ethanol"). Fun facts around engines, like how energy density of the fuel doesn't necessarily means more power/torque, as in how much energy the engine can produce and apply as force per unit of time.
How does the fact that the Honda has multiple gears (and also the different differential ratio) affect the calculation? Don't the lower transmission gears effectively increase the torque to the wheels while in those gears? Doesn't the higher differential ratio of the Leaf also increase the torque to the wheels throughout?
Combustion lives forever brother.
Till the fuel runs out.
Somebody needs to apply the principles of the rotational subwoofer and careful length choices in cooling ducts to make electric cars sound amazing - the vast majority of the noise people love in IC engines is gas moving around anyway, electric cars are still pumping gas around for cooling - they could sound great.
I would like to see the numbers of the S2000 compared to a Tesla.
Timmothy Redding hell yeah model 3 performance please
RWD short range Model 3 vs Civic type R will be fun, but have to wait until next year for that. Performance AWD Model 3 vs BMW M3 could be done now.
Just google it...duh.
This is a good video that addresses something that's never spoken about with electric cars.
Whilst they may have instant torque and are quicker off the mark, in real world use that is of very little benefit, unless you just love racing from the traffic lights.
Every electric car I have driven has felt disappointing when accelerating from say 60kph to 80kph, or 80kph to 100kph, the kind of accelerating that actually matters in real life. I especially noted how poor a particular electric car accelerated from 50kph whilst going up hills compared to my crappy 20 year old turbo diesel car.
It seem's electric cars sound good on paper, but in real world situations than can be found lacking.
I'm sure someone will bring up a Tesla, but I'm talking about a Nissan Leaf or equivalent compared to the likes of a VW Golf etc.
I would disagree completely. Electric cars offer great acceleration, without any delays for downshifting or the lack of smoothness. This is a 150 hp car with significantly more weight, and it offers great acceleration in the useable range (0-60 mph), where people are always driving, even when compared to the lighter, more powerful S2000.
@@EngineeringExplained correct me if I am wrong, but based on the times shown from 20-50mph, 30-50mph, 50-80mph and everything in-between the s2000 was faster, the leaf was only faster from 10-20mph and 10-30mphs. Basically trying to say that unless it was from 0mph (so a rolling start the s2000) was faster. In my opinion and daily driving I'm not particularly interested in acceleration from a dead stop, but acceleration in situations of over taking, coming out of a corner, or going into a faster speed zone. Hence my experience of finding electric cars "gutless" is real driving conditions that aren't stop start. I haven't seen any tests showing this data.
Electric for the city
Combustion for the road
What's surprising for myself is to see an S2K getting a 7 second 0-60 after having quite a few parts thrown at it. Compare that to say a 2005-6 Cobalt SS with 205HP at the crank, it can muster 6 seconds. I would believe it has a lot as stated to do with where the power is made. Shockingly, after driving a few forced induced vehicles, from my Talon TSI that I sold this past winter to a Cobalt SS SC that I test drove last fall it's amazing how vehicles with...especially 4 cylinders can vary so greatly on the track. It felt like in my TSI there was lag for days and it made similar power at similar RPM's, but yet, the Cobalt SS would absolutely walk my TSI. Granted, the TSI was completely stock, but the numbers were very similar with 210HP and 2?? something torque and the SS's 205HP and 200 or so pounds feet.
A few years from now, the salvage yards are going to be full of electric and hybrid cars that were junked because their owners couldn't afford to replace the batteries.
Modern batteries with thermal management systems are commonly warrantied until 100,000 miles. Performance degradation starts around that time but the car'll still drive to 150k or 200k
Gouada I expect there'll also be a growing aftermarket for battery pack replacements, when people realize that the car will go another 200K no problem with a new battery pack and maybe some suspension parts. That should drive down costs a bit too.
EVs have been running for many years already. Longer than anyone said the batteries would last. Where are the salvage yards? EVs going furhter than 500k miles on a single battery are well documented. And the behaviour of the batteries of many 10s of 1000s of miles is well measured -> and it exceeds the expectations of even the biggest proponents of electric vehicles 6 years ago.
And they just keep getting better.
Yea, those that crashed it
You do realize that the Prius has been on the road for almost 2 decades now, and you can find them running with the original battery (albeit not as strong). And you do realize that a new battery is usually cheaper than a new engine, right? Like you've never heard of an engine failing. The facts are through what we've seen is that batteries are more reliable and way cheaper to use. The cost of oil changes throughout the life of a combustion engine is worth 2 brand new batteries in a EV or hybrid. Then you still gotta buy the engine.
Yes electric pulls hard and is much cheaper for the same 0-60, but... The roar and noise just adds so much and makes the experience much more intense.
The problem with battery powered electric cars is drag racing once it wins, drag racing all day long, it lost half and can't go home. Don't get me wrong, i love electric cars just prefer something like feul-cell powered rather than battery.
charge at the circuit... that's what we do :-)
... k It depends on everything. Where's the nearest local charger, does the track have chargers, or which car you use. There's plenty who drag Model Ses who find their way home. Laguna Seca has had a yearly electric race series for almost a decade now, the Refuel race series. They usually provide charging there.
charge it, then enjoy browsing internet. that's why internet was invented for public.
This issue will be fixed very soon in 2020-2021 by Solid State Batteries which will have much more density, it means more lightweight (so less discharge to move at the same speed), reload much faster, 80% recharge in a single minute and this is only be the beginning of this technology and they are much safer, they aren't flammable and do not heat (they can replace cooling to add more batteries or make the car even lighter). They can also discharge faster than lithium-ion to increase the torque to beat the 1.9s 0-60 mph of the Tesla Roadster. Dyson, Hyundai, Tesla and more are working on it even German manufacturers that were mostly using gasoline. Samsung should be the first to use it in their Smartphone in 2019, but I am not sure since the Galaxy S10 will be released in early 2019, we will see an huge difference if they use it like charging it few minutes for weeks of battery. Those batteries will also be used to increase a lot flying cars' range. And of course the price will continue to drop quickly because the demand will explode, they will have more range than combustion cars and charging will be free at malls and electric engines need much less maintenance so they will be economic and reliable.
most tracks have substantial power in the paddock garages... it's simple to connect a bank of chargers to this power source... we're using 10 Tesla chargers for a portable 120kW 'supercharger' for our competition cars :-)
Awesome vid! I appreciate your data detail and expect no less. Kudos!
Everyone knows that diesel engines produce torque, petrol (Gas) engines produce power and electric engines produce spin! 😛
Thanks, you have a great skill for explaining in a way I can enjoy and learn.
Tesla... the new must have for dbags
anonamous365 Why do you think that?
Electric vehicle manufacturers need to work on light weight battery technology to have longer range/acceleration ( solid state battery could help the cause a bit)
Balaji Chandrasekaran
So far, for the last 8 years, everyone has been demanding for more capacity and power density, and faster charging. There hasn't been that much demand, although every car makers' investment in solid state electrolyte (Li-poly) is promising.
In the automotive world, "lightweight" batteries aren't that common, especially when you consider most of the weight is in the metal packaging of the whole pack and surrounding individuals modules.
But that doesn't mean the chassis of cars are getting lighter and smaller either. This is where the BMW i3 comes in, using CFRP in its body allowed weight reduction, and an efficiency gain. The engineers then further reduced the need for battery size, thus more weight reduction and efficiency gain and so on.
Lmao the salt if real with this you boi. 😎
he doesn't event talk about Tesla in the video lmao. I feel like the annoying people who are obsessed with Tesla are the same types of people who care so much about hating it.
I agree with the switch to International System of measurements. You are probably my favorite car-oriented channel, because you are based on facts, but it would improve if you moved (progressively) to standardized units
That's why I only drive gas cars.
Cause they're slower? Lol
8:50 That rear diffuser! *drools *
I still prefere the S2000
Yea, eletric is quicker... but it's driving for dummies... S2000 Require skills
1300l And what if you could buy an electric with a manual gearbox? Still boring? ;)
I'd say it'd be wicked fun to drive.
Matthew Ducker ngl if you could buy an electric car with a manual gearbox, that'd be so cool and none of this regenerative braking crap, use driving skills such as threshold braking.
To be honest, still more borring than a internal combustion, since learn to use the acceleration pedal and not just floor it is still more skills ;)
Also, even internal combustion cars are hard to find with manual gear now days :(
I'm guessing you haven't actually driven one. If you had, you'd know that regenerative braking is much like engine braking but more consistent and predictable, and also gives you more power (and if you really dislike it, you can disable it) - and that you'd know that there is more than just slamming the accelerator to the floor.
Give it a chance/try, you'll likely be surprised. No need to buy one, just rent one for a day, or even take a test drive. Worth it just so you actually know what you're criticising.
Re: manual, yeah I'm guessing that manual and auto gearboxes will be a popular aftermarket modification for electrics. People that say there is no mod scene for electrics are dead wrong... it's just different, and early in its history (consider that ICE had a pretty boring early history too!). It will be just as rich and varied as ICE cars.
I have driven one, but i assume you are talking to the other guy
You talk and explain very well. Love your videos man!
Electric cars are souless
So are people that generalize all cars of a certain type into one box.
Zas!
Technically all cars are soulless, but I guess literally everyone else is gonna disagree with me.
Joel Hernández If we go by that logic, everything is soulless unless you are a religious nutcase.
e36s54 Dude..its really nice when you get to drive in peace and quiet/zero engine vibration with or without tunes when you're looking for comfort as a daily to/from work. Have you ever TRIED that? The power is amazing in Tesla's too, the acceleration is crazy. I can easily see us car guys having electric daily and a crazy ICE build for fun that wouldn't make for a good daily, but let us push our ICe's even further.
Aerodynamic drag is proportional to the square of the vehicle's velocity. Because the S2000 has an increasing torque curve, it is able to match the drag force and continue accelerating at high rpm.
Turbo diesel > literally every other engine
(Opinion)
Why ?
Too heavy
Other than the boring power curve and MOUNTAINS of particulate emissions.
Anyway on a racetrack you will go at least 25mph and if you have a combustion engine in the first gear (from 25 not from 0), it will have enough power to accelerate. The e motor has the greatest advantage in terms of reliability (since you don't wear any clutches) only from standstill.
There is another interesting option for an electric motor, a torque converter. Koenigsegg uses it on a hybrid platform.
So glad you included metric units
A whiteboard video about the Nissan Leaf's synchronous motor and motor driver power-electronics would be interesting.
This was actually also very helpful for understanding the relationship between horsepower and torque.
Interesting video, thanks. Can someone explain what the “sport mode” does on my Chevy Bolt? Is it just increasing sensitivity of the accelerator pedal? Also, it would be interesting to compare stopping distances with EV using one pedal driving, too.
Everywhere the car accelerates faster it makes more power than a same weight car regardless of the engine torque.
Even comparing two electric motors with very different max torque ratings they can accelerate the same way with proper gearbox ratio. One can be high torque the other high rpm motor.
For example you can have 200Nm motor form 0-15000 and another 400Nm 0-7500rpm. If you set up the first with 2x higher ratio they will perform equally. Also the 200Nm motor will have strong pull from standstill just like the 400Nm one. Then why not 2x for the 400Nm one? You can do it, you can then do 4x for the 200 and they will perform equally to top speed. These motors make about the same horsepower so no matter what you do you can match the performance with the 200Nm one.
so true bro 👌🏻 once he geared hees s2000 optimal it would leave in the dust this leaf from stand still all the way to max velocity only issue is traction at start which is limited be tire grip 👌🏻in fact he could beat this leaf already just be start from biger rpm 🫣 all this comaprision is pointless and misleading 🫣 people which dont egzacly know what depend on what 100 nm at engine crank which generate 200 hp at let say 100 km/h exert more G force and push you harder into seat than feg 200 nm and 100 hp at engine crank at thesame vehicle velocity 🤷🏻♂️ power win races 100% 👌🏻 big torque down low is good for daily elasticity riding personally also prefer as daily more elastic engine with less peak hp for racing with less gears 🤷🏻♂️👌🏻 and most avg driver also 👌🏻thats why i buy as me next bike ntv 650 56 nm 56 hp but not bandit 600 s which have inline 4 engine 54 nm 78 hp it beat ntv in drag race despite is heavier 210 vs 230 kg but up to 7-8 k rpm produce less power and torq and have 6 gear vs ntv 5 👌🏻 b600s hit 0-60 mph in 4 sec vs ntv in 5 sec vmax 175 vs 200 km/h but each open throtle in daily riding between 2-7 k rpm and b600 s is not very impressive 🤷🏻♂️👌🏻you need to hold b6s at higher rpm than it moves better than ntv but i dont like such type of driving with alot reduction and hold engine at big rpm 🤷🏻♂️
Very reveiling as usual... 👌
Great video showing the difference between the engine types
Another great explanatory clip. Thank you. 👍