Local lab really struggled with Harmon Phoenix. The scans were very contrasty and had some yellow bleed that is hard to explain in certain areas (best way I can describe it). Just camera scanned them with much better (normal) results. Thanks for the great videos and detail.
The halation difference is directly from the size. Halation is when light reflects off the back and hits the red layer again. The distance of this reflection in 120 and 35 is the same, so the width of the halation in milimeters would also be the same (e.g. if it reflects 1mm at a 10deg angle, its a 0.17mm halation on both 35mm and 120. BUT since 120 is 6-9cm and 35mm is 3.5cm, as a % of the film the halation goes from 0.5% to
The fact that you got usable images that don't scream "Phoenix" is very exciting to me. Have been paying a lot of attention to how photographers are using this film and the results they're getting, and your results are definitely some of the best I've seen. Very excited to see how Harman progresses.
@@randallstewart1224 Not the film so much as the idea of a new emulsion, I wish Harman good luck! I took it as a joke as well but thought that people can really be serious about these things 😅. I bet it would really look good in 4x5 format or 8x10 🤑
This is some great news, especially seeing what can be done with proper scanning and conversion! I really, really enjoyed the colors and tones out of the scans you got from Harman. When I saw the first images shot on 35mm Phoenix 200, I was kinda torn on how I liked it, and shied away from shooting it because it seemed to have so little exposure latitude. Now, even though I’m not gonna pick up a Pentax 17, I’m thinking putting Phoenix 200 in a Pentax 17 could lead to some pretty grainy, but cool results.
Film has no noise. Noise is a term that relates to a Signal of some kind. And Signal in turn relates to an electronic system. Film is a chemical system, not an electronic one. That being said, I'm sure you meant grain but I find it important that those of us who care enough about film to watch this kinds of videos use the proper terminology so those who don't like film can't say things wrong just cause they heard them from us.
I honestly hated the 35mm version, haven’t bought any more since the release, but I’ve just sent off my first 120 roll and this video has me hopeful! Great video and awesome photos
The halation reduction could also be related to the matt black backing paper absorbing some of the light in the camera. This isn't part of the 35mm roll. While @asub3292 had a great explanation as it relates to the film grain, the backing paper may also play a part in reduction of noticeable halation. Great content as always!
That's a huge improvement eh. I had made my mind up on only taking my M3 to Japan with me soon, and now I'm thinking I should probably throw the GA645 in the bag too hahhh. Some of those cars were really nice, as a beetle owner that blue one was great.
I shot one roll of 35mm. I tried scaning with epson v500 flatbed, original software had a lot of trouble (photos came extremly dark). Silverfast and vuescan handled it better. However when I used scanner as positive and prepared my own preset reversing colors in epson software it worked good enough. Not huge fan of phoenix, however for shure it can work well at overcast I believe.
i remember when phoenix was first released in 35mm and i thought "im glad they care enough to develop a new color stock, but man its kinda ass lol". the colors on 120 look soooo nice. its still a little grainy, but its obvious they are continuing to improve their process.
I still think this is a very specific look and only usable in certain settings but I'm glad they're working on it. The biggest thing to make this actually a reasonable option would be adding an orange mask, which would help with the contrast a lot too. I'm sure they know that though.
they are not working on it. they just want to get rid of old stock, so then they can launch a new "experimental" batch. and us (pardon me), fools for analog photography, will buy it again hoping for something better. but how many times they can do this until we will stop buying? ofc they will send fre films to yt influencers but at one point, we will be deaf to their videos.
Who says they are "really working on it"? If Harmon said they were working to improve it, they'd be admitting that it's an unmarketable piece of crap that no one in their right mind would pay the asking retail price for. Harmon has been kicking this crap out the door for a year now. So long as people hold their noses to prevent gagging while making positive YT reviews of it, and people spend good money on it in misplaced reliance on those reviews, nothing is going to "improve".
Why would they not be working on it? They released a brand new colour film a year ago, and now we have it in a larger format, and to me, it looks a bit better. I know nothing about making colour film, but I'm sure it's an incredibly complicated and time-intensive process, and I doubt Harman is doing it as an 'experiment' just to take our money.
@@KyleMcDougall Well okay. Harmon has had more than a year to show progress, but instead they sit in silence and keep on cranking out this mess of off colors (no reds, just ruddy oranges), and a contrast which cannot capture a normal lighting range for ordinary subjects, and buckshot grain even Rodinal lovers would hate. The lack of a color mask I understand. The film is directed to those who scan rather than do wet (RA-4) prints, although any cost savings must be nominal at best. The lack of an anti-halation dye suggests an effort to emulate Cinestill products, which would be so incredible that I'm left baffled on that issue. These features of the film were planned. Someone at Harmon had to say, "do this, but not that". This isn't a product cooked up by a couple of nerds on a slow Friday. The 120 rolls are no better than the 35mm - same film. The images made at a similar size look better on 120 only because they are not enlarged to the same extent as the 35mm images. If Harmon were serious about making this film product ready for prime time, you would expect regular progress reports just to offset a public perception that their marketing plan is "If they'll buy it, it's good enough".
Beginner question: when you say you rated it at 100 ISO, does that mean you are just metering for 100 or you're pulling it a stop to 100 and developing at 100?
Ive heard frequently that people are overexposing by a stop to get better results. So i would assume hes meaning metering for 100. Just commenting in case he doesnt see this comment
It means he’s exposing his film rated at 100 ISO, and developing the film how you would normally process C-41 film, which is like 3’30” at 100 degrees Fahrenheit
The developing times for color film are typically less variable than black and white film. You can develop color films of different ISOs with each other with no issue, unless you intend to push or pull different rolls and such
I’ve shot 800 ISO, and depending on the time of day, if I still have a roll inside and it’s super sunny, I just meter for 100 ISO and still process at 800. My photos come out good. As long as you meter under the ISO the film is rated at, you shouldn’t have to pull or push.
The 120 is the quality I expect from a roll of 35mm. I like it but its disappointing to me that it is such a strong difference simply by increasing resolution. As it is the 35mm feels much more like one if lomos art films than a professional or even consumer film and the 120 feels like a decent consumer 35mm film but lacks the feeling that medium format usually has for me
I'm sure new users of Film, will love it! When I was Pro, no way! I didn't supply images for 'art' folk! Original Kodachome slde film was 10 ASA! Super Contrasty. See Ernst Hass images in Life magazine! So I guess one could use it's faults! The bad news, I use Digital for color Great video. Some super photos! Bravo.
I never shoot this film, but most of the photos I’ve seen from the 35mm version, I have not been impressed with, especially for the price, but the 120 version isn’t too bad, still kind of grainy to me though. It’s always fun to see different films though, I get tired of seeing Porta all the time; I just picked up some respooled AeroColor iV which I’m really excited to shoot since it’s reds are so saturated!
I like them both, two very different looks from one emulsion. Each have their own uses. I wouldn't want Phoenix to turn into something like Kodak Gold which is something else altogether.
Thanks Kyle, will Harman apply the edits you spoke about as standard to rolls of 35mm Phoenix that are sent into their lab, or did they just do it for you?
I'm actually not sure. I didn't ask them. I think this method is something they've been testing as of very recent. As I said in the video, the only downside is that it's much more time intensive than regular conversion with the Frontier, so I'm not sure how feasible it would be from a business standpoint.
Is the 120 film an updated formula or do these changes come down to the format exclusively? I know Harman has said they're trying to refine the film so hopefully newer batches of 35mm will more closely match the 120 format. I really like the colours on the 120 so I'd very much like to see the 35mm look closer to that.
I've always converted phoenix using Darktable's negadoctor. Make sure to get a white balance reference off the light, and a clean shot of the base fog, and I've always found the colours to be good (no exactly natural, but not weird). Other choices mean that I can't use NLP anyway, but I've never trusted tools that try and make these inversions cleverer than they are (my enlarger doesn't have all the knobs and dials that NLP seems to have, I don't tell it what film I'm using, so why does NLP care?)
I've heard at least one (maybe two?) photographers say they think Harmon did soft reboot and it's a little different now than the initial releases. Thoughts?
Without the mask it should be much easier to do color conversion, even without a plug-in like NLP. This film stock looks actually quite intriguing in 120. It might be a good match for a project I'm still in the "discovery" phase with …
Have you been to Harman factory. It is in Mobberley Cheshire. Some other film photographers on TH-cam have been there. I worked there as an engineer. I regret leaving
11:10 When scanning with the Frontier, has anyone had much luck with scanning as a negative? also is the inversion of the fuji scanned "positive negative" done through a program like NLP or was it just an inversion and colour correct by eye? Not having fun trying to find scans through a frontier as a negative to gauge phoenix results :(
In my opinion the worst 35mm stock I’ve ever tested. Even at ISO 160, in daylight, with perfect exposure the look was terrible. Highlights blow out incredibly easily, dr overall very limited and very very grainy. I even talked to the lab beforehand and they said they are experienced with this stock. Very disappointing results in the end.
![กี่หมื่นฟ้า | Your Sky Series EP.1 [2/4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qJbQs_nhjD4/mqdefault.jpg)
Local lab really struggled with Harmon Phoenix. The scans were very contrasty and had some yellow bleed that is hard to explain in certain areas (best way I can describe it). Just camera scanned them with much better (normal) results. Thanks for the great videos and detail.
That first photo of the two red cars is unbelievably good
The halation difference is directly from the size. Halation is when light reflects off the back and hits the red layer again. The distance of this reflection in 120 and 35 is the same, so the width of the halation in milimeters would also be the same (e.g. if it reflects 1mm at a 10deg angle, its a 0.17mm halation on both 35mm and 120. BUT since 120 is 6-9cm and 35mm is 3.5cm, as a % of the film the halation goes from 0.5% to
Thanks for the explanation.
Your channel is so great man. No clickbait, no bullshit, just facts and informed expert opinion delivered by a chill dude
🙌
So true! 💛
120 genuinely looks like a really nice film
I agree, I really like the colours on the 120 shot at 100iso
I enjoyed it much more.
The fact that you got usable images that don't scream "Phoenix" is very exciting to me. Have been paying a lot of attention to how photographers are using this film and the results they're getting, and your results are definitely some of the best I've seen. Very excited to see how Harman progresses.
Now they should release a 110 version.
You don't want that, I shot a roll in half frame format and the grain is absolutely too much!
@@ciprianoravet I suppose if you "like" Phoenix, you don't get sarcasm.
@@randallstewart1224 Not the film so much as the idea of a new emulsion, I wish Harman good luck! I took it as a joke as well but thought that people can really be serious about these things 😅. I bet it would really look good in 4x5 format or 8x10 🤑
That would be too cocked bro. They should release super 8. 💀
I love that you show the detail difference
This new 120 version of Phoenix looks pretty good, thanks for sharing Kyle!
You're welcome. Cheers.
That first picture is incredible.
This is some great news, especially seeing what can be done with proper scanning and conversion! I really, really enjoyed the colors and tones out of the scans you got from Harman. When I saw the first images shot on 35mm Phoenix 200, I was kinda torn on how I liked it, and shied away from shooting it because it seemed to have so little exposure latitude. Now, even though I’m not gonna pick up a Pentax 17, I’m thinking putting Phoenix 200 in a Pentax 17 could lead to some pretty grainy, but cool results.
I love how this film (esp. 120) treats orange colors. Very nice!
I've been shooting this film (in 35) at 160 iso, as I saw someone recommend that with the early testing. It has been working out nicely for me.
This video is great! Makes me even more excited to try out the couple rolls of Phoenix in 120 I snagged. Really cool process for scanning it too.
Yeah man, definitely enjoyed it more than the 35mm version!
detail and noise aside, the colors really are so so much better on the 120
I definitely enjoyed it more.
Film has no noise. Noise is a term that relates to a Signal of some kind. And Signal in turn relates to an electronic system. Film is a chemical system, not an electronic one.
That being said, I'm sure you meant grain but I find it important that those of us who care enough about film to watch this kinds of videos use the proper terminology so those who don't like film can't say things wrong just cause they heard them from us.
@@familygonzcartwright *grain 😎. Not a film shooter, so 🤷♂️
Now THIS is more like it! Just picked up a roll for my P67. Wasn't a fan of the 35mm at all but the 120 is a winner. Great video as always.
Cheers, Adam.
Thanks Kyle. A really great and useful comparison. I don’t think I’ve ever shot colour on my 120. Maybe time to give it a try.
Actually looks really nice. Might be a good option for overcast days. The punchy colors could definitely help in those scenarios. I'll give it a try.
Great review, mate! Thanks for the detailed comparisons.
I am loving the 120 version of Phoenix so far . Great sample images ! I'm on roll 3
🙌
Totally agree with your review having shot one roll in 120 @ ISO 125. Bring on the 5x4!
4x5
This 120 looks really good imo, if you find the right lab to process it. MIght have to check local prices on this Phoenix 120 🎉
Great video as per, was awesome to meet you at Bicester too ✌🏻 the photos came out really nice
Cheers, Lex. Good to meet you too!
I cannot believe those colours ❤
You are the best Kyle! Thank you
We need this in 4x5! Love those colors!
Great comparison, thanks for sharing
I agree with you the colors seem a bit more refined !
Should've done an example exposing at 50ASA.
I honestly hated the 35mm version, haven’t bought any more since the release, but I’ve just sent off my first 120 roll and this video has me hopeful! Great video and awesome photos
the best harman video on yt
Okay. this is actually sick. It kinda makes me consider getting a GW690.
The 120 looks pretty good. I really like shooting Lomo400 at around ISO 250. I may try a roll of the Phoenix now.
Cool to see you went to Bicester Heritage
Amazing comparison
Gutted you went to Rollhard and I had no idea! Would have been fantastic to meet. Perhaps next year 👀
It was great. I'll be back next year!
Great info! I still wonder if Harmon tweeted the 120 version a bit. It seems much less “experimental” now. Nice colors!
I read a comment of theirs where they mentioned that they've been refining it slightly during every run.
The halation reduction could also be related to the matt black backing paper absorbing some of the light in the camera. This isn't part of the 35mm roll. While @asub3292 had a great explanation as it relates to the film grain, the backing paper may also play a part in reduction of noticeable halation. Great content as always!
That's a huge improvement eh. I had made my mind up on only taking my M3 to Japan with me soon, and now I'm thinking I should probably throw the GA645 in the bag too hahhh.
Some of those cars were really nice, as a beetle owner that blue one was great.
I enjoyed it much more than the 35.
I shot one roll of 35mm. I tried scaning with epson v500 flatbed, original software had a lot of trouble (photos came extremly dark). Silverfast and vuescan handled it better. However when I used scanner as positive and prepared my own preset reversing colors in epson software it worked good enough. Not huge fan of phoenix, however for shure it can work well at overcast I believe.
I think I like the film, especially in 120; it has a sort of vintage print ad feel to it
7:50 i don't care, that photo is an absolute banger !
Anyone else notice the base colour on the 35mm version is purple but on the 120 rolls its less purple and more clear?
i remember when phoenix was first released in 35mm and i thought "im glad they care enough to develop a new color stock, but man its kinda ass lol". the colors on 120 look soooo nice. its still a little grainy, but its obvious they are continuing to improve their process.
I still think this is a very specific look and only usable in certain settings but I'm glad they're working on it. The biggest thing to make this actually a reasonable option would be adding an orange mask, which would help with the contrast a lot too. I'm sure they know that though.
they are not working on it. they just want to get rid of old stock, so then they can launch a new "experimental" batch. and us (pardon me), fools for analog photography, will buy it again hoping for something better. but how many times they can do this until we will stop buying? ofc they will send fre films to yt influencers but at one point, we will be deaf to their videos.
Who says they are "really working on it"? If Harmon said they were working to improve it, they'd be admitting that it's an unmarketable piece of crap that no one in their right mind would pay the asking retail price for. Harmon has been kicking this crap out the door for a year now. So long as people hold their noses to prevent gagging while making positive YT reviews of it, and people spend good money on it in misplaced reliance on those reviews, nothing is going to "improve".
Why would they not be working on it? They released a brand new colour film a year ago, and now we have it in a larger format, and to me, it looks a bit better. I know nothing about making colour film, but I'm sure it's an incredibly complicated and time-intensive process, and I doubt Harman is doing it as an 'experiment' just to take our money.
@@KyleMcDougall Well okay. Harmon has had more than a year to show progress, but instead they sit in silence and keep on cranking out this mess of off colors (no reds, just ruddy oranges), and a contrast which cannot capture a normal lighting range for ordinary subjects, and buckshot grain even Rodinal lovers would hate. The lack of a color mask I understand. The film is directed to those who scan rather than do wet (RA-4) prints, although any cost savings must be nominal at best. The lack of an anti-halation dye suggests an effort to emulate Cinestill products, which would be so incredible that I'm left baffled on that issue. These features of the film were planned. Someone at Harmon had to say, "do this, but not that". This isn't a product cooked up by a couple of nerds on a slow Friday. The 120 rolls are no better than the 35mm - same film. The images made at a similar size look better on 120 only because they are not enlarged to the same extent as the 35mm images. If Harmon were serious about making this film product ready for prime time, you would expect regular progress reports just to offset a public perception that their marketing plan is "If they'll buy it, it's good enough".
Beginner question: when you say you rated it at 100 ISO, does that mean you are just metering for 100 or you're pulling it a stop to 100 and developing at 100?
Ive heard frequently that people are overexposing by a stop to get better results. So i would assume hes meaning metering for 100. Just commenting in case he doesnt see this comment
It means he’s exposing his film rated at 100 ISO, and developing the film how you would normally process C-41 film, which is like 3’30” at 100 degrees Fahrenheit
The developing times for color film are typically less variable than black and white film. You can develop color films of different ISOs with each other with no issue, unless you intend to push or pull different rolls and such
I’ve shot 800 ISO, and depending on the time of day, if I still have a roll inside and it’s super sunny, I just meter for 100 ISO and still process at 800. My photos come out good. As long as you meter under the ISO the film is rated at, you shouldn’t have to pull or push.
Metering at 100, developing normal.
So amazing photos ❤🎉
Your photos are cleaaaan
I always thought Phoenix was perfect for 80's/90's car photography
The 120 is the quality I expect from a roll of 35mm. I like it but its disappointing to me that it is such a strong difference simply by increasing resolution. As it is the 35mm feels much more like one if lomos art films than a professional or even consumer film and the 120 feels like a decent consumer 35mm film but lacks the feeling that medium format usually has for me
I'm sure new users of Film, will love it! When I was Pro, no way! I didn't supply images for 'art' folk! Original Kodachome slde film was 10 ASA! Super Contrasty. See Ernst Hass images in Life magazine! So I guess one could use it's faults! The bad news, I use Digital for color Great video. Some super photos! Bravo.
I was thinking exactly the same as you mentioned at the end. 4x5 format next ?
🤞
I never shoot this film, but most of the photos I’ve seen from the 35mm version, I have not been impressed with, especially for the price, but the 120 version isn’t too bad, still kind of grainy to me though.
It’s always fun to see different films though, I get tired of seeing Porta all the time; I just picked up some respooled AeroColor iV which I’m really excited to shoot since it’s reds are so saturated!
Still a grainy 200 speed film, even in 120. But much better than the 35mm version.
I like them both, two very different looks from one emulsion. Each have their own uses. I wouldn't want Phoenix to turn into something like Kodak Gold which is something else altogether.
Thanks Kyle, will Harman apply the edits you spoke about as standard to rolls of 35mm Phoenix that are sent into their lab, or did they just do it for you?
I'm actually not sure. I didn't ask them. I think this method is something they've been testing as of very recent. As I said in the video, the only downside is that it's much more time intensive than regular conversion with the Frontier, so I'm not sure how feasible it would be from a business standpoint.
Thanks for the reply Kyle, I’ll give it a go with them anyway.
Is the 120 film an updated formula or do these changes come down to the format exclusively? I know Harman has said they're trying to refine the film so hopefully newer batches of 35mm will more closely match the 120 format. I really like the colours on the 120 so I'd very much like to see the 35mm look closer to that.
I read that they've been improving it slightly with every run.
35mm would be insane if they're reduce the grain
I've always converted phoenix using Darktable's negadoctor. Make sure to get a white balance reference off the light, and a clean shot of the base fog, and I've always found the colours to be good (no exactly natural, but not weird). Other choices mean that I can't use NLP anyway, but I've never trusted tools that try and make these inversions cleverer than they are (my enlarger doesn't have all the knobs and dials that NLP seems to have, I don't tell it what film I'm using, so why does NLP care?)
I thought this was new music from a new band Harman Phoenix 120. Not bad It’s photography 😂
I've heard at least one (maybe two?) photographers say they think Harmon did soft reboot and it's a little different now than the initial releases. Thoughts?
I read that they've been improving it slightly during every run. What that means exactly, I'm not sure.
Without the mask it should be much easier to do color conversion, even without a plug-in like NLP. This film stock looks actually quite intriguing in 120. It might be a good match for a project I'm still in the "discovery" phase with …
Is it possible that the paper backing also reduced the halation in 120?
Isnt the backing paper of 120 film the reason for the decrease of halation?
That's a good question. I'm actually not too sure.
damn ! these color palettes
Let's go to 4x5 baby.
Yes please.
Hi all, any advice for Phoenix 35mm ISO settings? Thanks…
❤
Have you been to Harman factory. It is in Mobberley Cheshire. Some other film photographers on TH-cam have been there.
I worked there as an engineer. I regret leaving
11:10
When scanning with the Frontier, has anyone had much luck with scanning as a negative?
also is the inversion of the fuji scanned "positive negative" done through a program like NLP or was it just an inversion and colour correct by eye?
Not having fun trying to find scans through a frontier as a negative to gauge phoenix results :(
Harman told me they brought the positive into PS and inverted it with curves, then an auto color correction. And that's it.
You really ought to try this at iso 160. Harmon is unlikely to have reinvented the wheel simply because of the cost.
Colors look awesome to me, some of the films these days feel a bit boring too me they’re just too ordinary
In my opinion the worst 35mm stock I’ve ever tested. Even at ISO 160, in daylight, with perfect exposure the look was terrible. Highlights blow out incredibly easily, dr overall very limited and very very grainy. I even talked to the lab beforehand and they said they are experienced with this stock. Very disappointing results in the end.
what? it's super grainy in 135, 110?
wtf it looks like a totally different film...
How come yours looks stunning while others looks like shit? 😂
Workflow controls make a huge difference
Scanning and conversion plays a huge part in how this film looks.