Real Talk… Will Good Teams Avoid Winning The In-Season Tournament? | JJ Redick and Gabe Vincent
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2023
- In this clip, JJ Redick and Gabe Vincent (The Los Angeles Lakers) talk about the brand new NBA In-Season Tournament and whether teams will actually want to win the thing.
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European football fan here. We have this on "soccer". At the end, it's never as important as the main competition (the NBA ring in this case) but it's a good motivator for some teams that are not used to win, or some really competitive teams that want to win both and prove they are actually the best.
It’s because the nba is making this feel lower then the League Cup in English football. They probably want this to feel like a Champions League type spectacle but the same teams playing each other feels stale.
More like FA Cup
Yeah but thing is in the case of a FA Cup, Copa Del Rey, Coppa Italia all these tournaments consists of every club on all levels participating, sure the clubs in the top divisions are probably going to win but at least there’s this concept that any team can make a run.
In the NBAs case it’s just weird. It’s the same teams you play all the time thus there’s no distinction or prestige in an in-season tournament.
@@travisrussell7165the NBA hasn’t even started marketing this forreal yet man
@@The_Shah_Show true. Good point.
The nice thing about the tournament is that teams (who take it seriously) get to see how their teams function in high stakes moments before the trade deadline and can make adjustments accordingly going forward. And theyre making early season games actually matter. Sometimes, teams take those November/december games for granted and try to just make a last minute run to get into the playoffs
there are no high stakes. who cares about a random trophy?
No one will remember who won in season tournament a few years from now, it’s so meaningless and it’s a soccer thing where they don’t play 82 game seasons.
Tbh I see it more for the teams that are lower seeds to be able
to compete at a high level. The okc, rockets, pistons, pacers etc etc will want to win to prove something
If the only teams taking it serious are developing teams there are definitely no high stakes
There is no high risk lol
This is something that can only really be evaluated after 3-5 years or so. It wasn’t until this past season that they play-in tournament really got legitimized in many people’s minds after the previous 3 years of existence.
One thing I’ll never forget was The Timberwolves winning their first Cham….I mean play-in. Shoutout to Pat Bev. 😂😂😂
Why, bc the Lakers were a play in team?
LA was the 7 seed, and Minnesota was the 8 seed, the play in didn’t change anything
In the East, Atlanta and Miami ended up swapping the 7 & 8 seed
The play in tournament was largely irrelevant
@@nydibs It’s not always about the utility of it. There may be a better word for what I’m trying to say than utility, but my point is this: It added drama and increased the stakes and intensity of much of the league toward the end of last season. There’s value in that. It also does add to the possibility of a team who has been marred by issues like injury or who is surging late to get in and do something unexpected.
But that said, ultimately in most cases, you’ll probably see it result in teams who would’ve already been in the playoffs anyway still being in the playoffs.
@@nydibswhen did he bring up the lakers? And sure Miami was an 8 Seed but they lost the first Play-In game and had to play another high stakes game to make the playoffs… It was awesome All across the board
@KINGGRANDY14 - just trying to understand what made the play in more interesting this year compared to others
Only thing on paper that was different is that the lakers were in it. The results were mostly expected and did practically nothing for seeding
If it ever expands as a non in-season tournament, I'd love to see if G-League teams could participate. Somewhat closer to what the EFL has going.
G league??? Why not add the college basketball national champion while you’re at it?
Legit no g league team would even be competitive enough
TBH they could invite the Ignite and the G League Champion
@@cheerioss-9121it’s the same case in the Europe with football so who cares
This is how I stand in terms of legacy: if a player wins one or two, who cares. But what if a player wins 8 or 9 over his career. Heads will start to turn. Maybe some players perform best in a single game elimination tournament.
lmao keep writing your fan fic
At the end of the day, If that player has 9 NBA Cups but no NBA championships he will be clowned like hell
@@Cheezkrispies131he won’t be clowned because the in season is just regular season games
Winning 8 or 9 what? Regular season games? Who cares lol
@@Deezy3211🤣
I like the in season tournament. It's not like it's replacing anything important, it's just adding a little excitement to the boring part of the season. A lot of people don't even care ab NBA before Christmas, and even if this doesn't change that rn, it lays the groundwork of having the tournament be a thing to then be able to have it's stakes raised to something more important.
shut up nerd
exactly, idk why “fans” are complaining lol
But how does a mid-season tournament begin 15 games into an 82 game season loo
@@thereandbackagainhvmid just means it’s happening during the season instead of post or preseason. It doesn’t literally mean in the very middle dude😂
@@xavierehret3440plus for scheduling purposes since these games count as regular season games, they need to be spaced out a certain way so that everyone has played each other by the time the “knockout stage” begins.
Gabe summed it up perfectly
This needs to evolve into a tourney with Euroleague and G League teams. This will push NBA players to win in order to avoid being embarrassed. If Real Madrid win it, then the NBA Finals champ being called "the world champion" has an asterisk. I think the pressure to avoid embarrassment will be big
love this idea! And if a European team wins it they should get some bonus, like being the host of the final the next season or even an NBA playoff berth lol
Great Idea in theory but still even bad nba teams are mileage better then any G league/euro team
@@YourBeastRoynah, bad NBA teams lost to Europeans teams on many occasions
@MichelePonte I could definitely see Euro doing it but G league is pushing it lol
@@YourBeastRoy Euroleague teams have won 4 out of the last 7 times they played NBA teams.
i think the play in tournament should target 'mid' or 'bad' teams. what makes basketball exciting is when you have two teams dying to win a game, which is why playoff basketball is some of the best you will ever see. to Gabe's point, good teams won't even want to win these games, and good players won't even play in them (load management). 500k isn't enough when you're on a $30-40M contract where each game you play is 'worth' around $500k anyways.
a very simple way to do this would be that for the winner of the in-season tournament, if that team makes the playoffs, the team gets seeded one place higher automatically.
So if a team wins the in-season tournament, and they end up as a 7 seed for the playoffs. since they won the tournament, they get seeded to 6th. this incentivizes especially 'mid' teams since they get a seed advantage which can make or break a playoff run, and 'bad' teams since the roster is mostly making less than $20M a year (so the $200-500k is worth it) and a potential 8 to 7 playoff seed bump.
it has to be worth it for the teams to play the extra game
The in season tournament is just like fan fiction - doesn’t mean much but will be entertaining for the fans
if teams " avoid" the in season tournament it will be clear that they're tanking, because at least the group stage counts towards the season record... and as a fan I think it's great, because it'll create more competitiveness in the early games of the season that we haven't seen in quite few seasons, especially with this payday that can motivate some players..
I think the tournament should be the back end of the bench. A lot of those guys don’t get a chance to show their skills and could lead to some players breaking out a la linsanity
I feel the nba has an Illuminati, a special club of players who get special treatment just like the real world. So many dudes throughout history who can ball out but don’t get the recognition. You look at dudes like Lemelo Ball who hasn’t proved much but given all this money and barely plays a season, it shows there is favoritism.
Lol the whole reason for the tournament is to add some excitement and interest to the regular season. Bench players are not gonna do that 😂
@@bendover3653 lol you obviously don't know about linsanity
This tournament needs to offer more of an insentive. Like let it move your team up a spot in the playoffs at the end of the season (team gets paid double if they finish first since they can't move up a spot) or help clear cap space for next season (maybe take $5m off the books or something so teams can make another signing or afford to keep a nice role player after the season).
Like winning the FA cup gets a team a few million they can then put towards signings. Something like that needs to be done so fans feel like there's a benefit to winning and that their team shouldn't just tank the tournament.
If a team can win the In Season tournament and the main Championship then they’ll be considered ‘double winners’ which will solidify the credibility of that team. In Soccer, we have ‘double’ winners or ‘treble’ winners and those teams get talked about for years to come.
treble winners if they also have the best record
It's an interesting idea. Ideally there would be playoff implications to really make it worthwhile.
Agreed
Agreed, maybe give the winners conference home court advantage in the finals
Guaranteed 8th seed for winning the cup would be cool.
@@Austin2Sexy or home court advantage if that team already seeded higher than 8th place
Hey JJ, diehard fan from Kentucky... where Duke is hated since the Laetner shot lol. Love your channel and would love to see Kristaps Porzingis on the Pod
Might be a chance to use bench players, try to use different lineups, defensive tactics or just another load management technique
the problem is your bench is not deeper than a normal roster. so yes you can use bench players but that also includes using starters, which is more tax on their bodies. Just wait until someone important to a team gets injured
These games are part of their regular season schedule, so they can't tank. The NBA is smarter than that come on lol
That's what I was thinking and it's a good time to really get to know rookie players too
@@bendover3653i don’t get what people think these games are, the pool play games are regular season games in november on tuesdays and fridays where the nba can compete with the nfl/cfb. the bracket and vegas games will be great games to watch. basketball nerds (like me) will love it lol. nba franchises aren’t going just give up an opportunity at a pay raise like that. and it makes sense that they are paid more than the playoff share of making the finals. cause the nba finals and ring is ofcourse worth more the ring is 100k-150k and the playoff share. so it’s not worth more really and you still want a championship over a i season tourney. gabe was funny for this but it’s lame if this is how players are thinking about the tourney. cause a 1nD nba tourney in november sounds great… if they get up for it.
Hearing in season tournament championships being brought up in debates is gonna be funny af 😭
I’ve always thought home field advantage in some way is the best incentive for everybody.
Clearly not as they’re all playing for that in the reg szn but some take it more seriously than other.
I honestly think it would make more sense for preseason and then you do a 72 game season. Keep everything else the same if it were possible idk if the working details would make it happen.
I can't imagine the in season tournament not being a hit. Like it's literally just another reason to cheer for your team. People just hate changes in sports for some reason.
My exact thinking.
I agree with you
Anyone who follows European sports like football can understand the incentive of the play in. If you only follow American sports I can understand why it’s hard to get your head around
Imo they need to add some playoff implications to it. Maybe every win after the first round counts for 2 wins, that would be like 3 extra wins? Could help every team except those looking to tank.
For the fans this will be exciting and it will add some eyes and revenue from the casual fans, for games that the teams have to play anyway. I can't wait.
As a fan I love this idea and I hope the players play and try there best. I’m looking forward to it more then the playoffs lol
I feel like in terms of narratives and rivalries the midseason tourney is a great idea. It adds more stakes to some peoples legacies and even gives you more of an idea of playoff basketball and the value of matchups and the length of a playoff series. To understand the actual skill of players because at this point the regular season does not provide a fair assessment of who is better and who is not. It provides a lot of food for thought as a basketball fan
You can’t make ANY playoff judgements off of rosters that will not be playing at that level of intensity. These are regular season games, you aren’t getting guys like lebron playing every minute to not lose
@@Cheezkrispies131 Can't assume anything until it happens
s/o to the podcast was listening to this while getting pulled 🤣
I really think the NBA would benefit from calling it the NBA Cup and not the “in-season tournament”.
They haters to change, I think it will be fun and add some excitement to the middle of the season
They’re trying to make people care more about the regular season, but I don’t understand the incentive it’s not an NBA Championship. Like the play on tournament made sense, because that has direct impact on the post season….but why would teams really care about this “Cup”?
Big fan of the tourney. I love the play-in so far.
Agree, the play in allows team to load manage more and still make the playoffs.
Rather than making it a cash reward for the win, the NBA cup should give teams higher seed rankings, or something like a guarantied spot in the NBA playoffs etc. That way teams that want to take advantage early in season can, or teams that don't get off to a great start can go the traditional route to raise their ranking through regular season games.
I think is cool the idea but I think it should be interesting for the in-season tournament have a way to help teams in the playoff as, play in home or something like that I hope start later with that or sign to ask for that. I think is very good try to innovate and actually is neccessary as other things as make players the new ones not take for granted the nba, make an extra effort, not everyone but at least some players I feel need to take more action.
It could be in the interesting if winning the midseason “finals” also gave your team 2 wins on the season.
I think the tournament is good idea overall for the success of the league but it undeniable that for the good teams there lack an incentive so I had an idea idk how viable it is but lmk
How bout the team who wins the in season tourney gets a team/seeding swap for the playoffs that could potentially upset the playoffs. Imagine an 8th or 5th seed able to select a matchup favorable to them, (If Memphis won, they wouldn’t select lakers obvi)and thus this incentives team to actually try as they could potentially be swapped out slotted with a post play-in team.
the incentive is win the chip. these tournament games are just regular season games like every year
The money makes sense to me. They have to give more money for the in season tournament in order to incentivize guys to want to compete because it’s a (at this point) new and less meaningful tournament before the big tournament (playoffs). When you get to the NBA finals you’re competing regardless because you want to be an NBA champion. The money for that is largely irrelevant.
I thin the in-season tournament could be fun. something new isn't always bad. also, there will 100% be discourse about players choking during the in-season finals I can see the headlines already
And on the flip side the winners will be mocked too. “Acting like they won something, win a REAL championship then talk”
I guess its like winning the Intercontinental or US championship before having a WWE or Universal title shot at WrestleMania.
Even the play-in tournament should be revamped. The 9th and 10th should be at least two games behind the 8th seed to qualify. Imagine if the 9th and 10th teams are 10 games back and they still get a shot? It's ridiculous.
Has a non-8 seed ever won the play in?
@@nydibs Yes, Memphis as 9th in 2021, Atlanta and New Orleans as 9th in 2021
This makes a lot of sense although that kind of separation is probably going to be very rare. I believe in 2020 the 8th and 9th seed had to be within 4 games of each other.
Anything new will always be ridiculed, no matter the profession. It wasn't too long ago that chucking up pull-up 3's in an NBA game was taboo and now it's considered taboo if you DON'T take a pull-up 3.
I'm not here to say the mid-season tournament is gonna be a flop or whatever but give it a couple of years to flesh itself out and see where it goes. Who knows, maybe it'll provide a little bit of spice in the mundane regular season for both the fans and the players.
what spice? They already miss 1/4 of the season ...
That’s how it helps in soccer…it makes midseason interesting
A little off topic but there should be 1v1 tournaments during All-Star
It will be interesting if they allow the best teams in other countries to participate down the line. That would be interesting
No it wouldn’t
Idk the exact details but teams should be playing for a charity of their choice or something along those lines so they have something to play for. The trophy alone won't mean much.
I think it will be a success. It will create extra story and rivalry
I agree with Gabe about the mid season tourney
They want more numbers during the season instead of just the playoffs so this is a way to amp up the beginning of the season instead of waiting to watch untill after the all star break
i think what it does have the potential to do is diversifying players careers away from just winning rings with international players getting better the game is going very global, in future years things like FIBA world cups and olympic medals are going to become more valuable because the competition around the world is catching up. I look at the NBA Championship right now it is like the English Premier League Title as the hardest domestic leagues to compete in their sport codes. like winning the in season tournament and the ring in the same year will be like winning a double. and for a player to win a world cup an nba championship and a in season tournament in the same year it would be like a way of making a season more valuable then just winning the championship
The prize money could go a long way for the fringe guys, 2nd rd picks, two-way guys, and assistant coaches. If I was a veteran I would be trying to win it and be excited for them.
Also do they share the cash or each person splits the winnings? Bc if it’s split then it would matter even less bc there’s no way there paying 500 k each person
there's literally no difference, they're just putting a name and prize to what would otherwise be normal regular season games that nobody would care about. People just love being contrarians
I feel like the final game should be a win added to your record if you win but not a loss if you lose
I find the idea not that wrong but how it is played. Normally every game should be an elimination game (just like soccer here in Europe). NBA could have taken 2 teams from G-League, so they would have 32 teams. Going after every elimination game would be 16 -> 8 -> 4 -> finals. This would make way more sense.
I personally feel the in season tournament should be for the players that are the end of the bench
Everything is confusing at the start. The play In works well. This might be good too. I think it’ll be fun. Plus the games minus the championship games count to your record, so why wouldn’t you want to try
I love that they are trying new things, but it kinda doesn’t make sense with the NBA. Soccer/Futbol you have players leased for a club so their respective league has a tournament. The main tourney is the World Cup and that’s not an annual it’s 3-4 years…NBA is the league they ALL play in so it’s pointless for a mid season cup
Would be interesting if the tournament made using the bench as starters mandatory. At least it would be sort of interesting.
I would be much more interested in watching a 3 on 3 tournament, specific to teams. Kevin Durant has to team with 2 others on the Suns, Jimmy Butler with the Heat, etc. I think that would be far more entertaining than the in season tournament.
Its going to be good the older guys are fading out new wave makes it interesting
I don't see why people are so against this tournament. We always complain about the state of the regular season and then when the league tries to do something about it, we trash it immediately. Give it a year or two before you throw all the negativity in the world at it.
The only question is whether teams will play starters in the finals of the in-season tourney. That's the game that doesn't count and means nothing for the team.
The NBA will adjust. As soon as one team rests players in the finals, they'll add a greater team incentive for winning, like giving the winning team a draft pick between rounds 1 and 2, and the losing team a pick at the end of round 2.
Another option would be to give the winning team a trade exception of 10 mill.
It takes time for something like this to grow in stature… soon enough people will also use this to quantify another players legacy
What I actually see happening is the good teams taking the L in the group stage so that they are disqualified in the tournament and can go back to playing their own pace and tempo of basketball.
They'll say that 500k isn't worth risking the stars in the middle of the season to play at a playoff level intensity level and so they'll lose the first one so they can go back to regular programming.
Bingo. I just don't see why any teams with legitimate championship aspirations would risk player health to win a meaningless in-season tournament. I imagine teams with real shots at the finals will play bench squads for this and, should they actually win, hey, great enjoy the extra money, and if not, no harm was done.
What are you talking about "risking player health". The only extra game is the finals of the mid season tournament, every other game counts as part of the 82 game season. It's pretty foolish to think this will be the final iteration so even if teams "don't care" this year, natural competitiveness will change that when people start racking up multiple trophies. Additionally it isn't hard for them to change the reward to make teams care, cap space, post season byes, improved draft capital
But the results count into the team reg season record... taking 1 L could be risky considering how close the competition specially in the west
Y'all are so dumb. We already have load management throughout the regular season where teams basically earmark single game losses to minimize potential for injury to star players, you really think smart teams are going to risk a shot at a championship for even a single game? Consensus is already that the regular season is too long, no franchise worth its salt is going to care about a meaningless in-season accolade that only awards a financial benefit. I will be amazed if any good team that makes the final four plays their actual starters for more than cursory first quarter minutes. The risk is just too high for something that offers zero team benefit
@@sophia_petrillo prepare to be amazed, cause no star is going to sit out. these are normal games.
the league wants to stop teams from doing load management
thats the whole point...........
Basically it means just one extra game if you make the final and bonuses kick in st qfinals. I don't see what's bad about it.
Yes, the O'Brien is the real title. Nothing wrong with a secondary tourny if the schedule isn't congested.
They didn't want to go all in this year which I think is smart. This is a great change for fans of mid teams like Rockets. I'll probably have more fun watching them steal a series in mid-season tournament than most of next year's playoffs as a Houston fan. It gives a reason to be invested in the season, while most of us check out until playoffs unless our team is doing well. Mid season narratives will change that, even if lead's to fool's gold situations where team that wins it all ends up not winning a single series in actual playoffs. I just hope it's not some finals between some flukey Orlando run and Lakers who decide to bench Lebron and AD: That would be trainwreck.
I do wish there were some playoff implications from the tournament
That would be a crime to have meaningless December games hold that much weight just for viewership.
If it's mid season how would winning a mid season tournament give to any advantage in the playoffs when you still have half the season to qualify for the playoffs it doesn't
JJ… Love your work. Why aren’t you coaching? You have a lot to offer. Joe
The NBA has become very popular in the last decade and the in season tournament brings more viewership and entertainment. It’s a great idea!
The in season tournament is so weird lol. Its just a couple of games from the regular season, and they gave it a name 😂. And then the top 2 teams within those games have to play an extra game, and none of the stats count in that game lol.
I think the winner should have to play less games in the regular season so that way inadvertently it would make everyone play harder so they won’t have to load manage and I feel that’s a reward the players would actually value considering the requirement of 65 games to get paid that’s going into affect this season
they should include the G-league teams to the in season tourney also...kind of like the FA Cup in EPL...this becomes huge, with potential upsets, etc. there's this thing called "Treble" in football (soccer) where you win the league title, the FA cup and the champs league in the same year...it's kind of a big deal.
They count as regular season games so no chance of including G-league.
I can totally see the contender teams sitting their stars and letting the young/2 way guys play instead.
Its a regular season game... still counts as a win towards seeding. Resting starters wouldnt make sense.
People hating on this dont know soccer. You will love it once it comes out
They need special in season tournament jerseys and I’m sold
I'm more concerned about player health, I want to see the best of the best in the finals... and chance of a mid season injury can potentially be increased.
It's part of the regular season. They would have the same chance of injury. They would sit out for load management either way, they could just schedule the load management slightly differently. Are people just not fully comprehending what this tournament is?
@@johnrigley8748 I fully comprehend its mid-season... If your one of the selected teams there has been no discussion on if player can be sat or load managed if there isn't a reason to sit them. At the end of the day, a mid season tournament is solely for NBA revenue. Yes players can get hurt during the season, however those games play apart in standing. So a regular season game IMHO means more than a mid season trophy from a tournament.
It’s going to help the league…in the regular season gets very boring, this will give it some spice for the fans…as players you should consider that since you are making all those millions thanks to the FANS
I think it’ll be good for the teams that take it seriously
i guess the perk of being the champ could be like this
if ur in the playoff like ur guaranteed 1-6 seed: you will have homecourt advantage for the rest of playoffs or the round of ur choice
if ur a lottery team aka 11-15: you automatically have the first pick
if ur a play in team: idk help me out
Maybe give the tournament winner an auto tie breaker in the playoffs and auto homecourt for game 7. Seems like it could be incentive enough to play an extra game and take it serious.
That's not a bad idea. Even an extra win to their total nobody else gets. Give them some kind of advantage for winning an extra intense game. We've got so many teams concerned about injuries and load management and the league wants to add a string of playoff intensity games in December with only a $ incentive?
Hell nah don't make sense at all
IS there anyway we can send this too adam sliver SHOW THIS ON FIRST TAKE!!!!!!
We need like some good incentives to win the tournament I don’t know you get to pick in the top five? But then that could make the rich get richer type of thing.
Me personally this can be a good thing for the players who don’t get enough playing time.
In European football the national cups have reasonably high status, not as high as winning the leagues - but it still counts as a trophy for a team, and if they win both (or all three as for England) it counts as a double (treble) and underlines dominance (unless you root for a rival team, then it is all bogus anyway and the entire season doesn't count). But the status is built on tradition, that is tricky to build suddenly.
JJ as the #1 analyst on ABC calling LeBron or Steph's fifth World Championship in '24? I like the sound of that. And I did say that JJ was going to be the lead analyst at some point. Now's the time💯
I think the NBA needed to do something to increase viewership for casual sports fans because only hardcore fans are tuning in for games. Also the NBA does a poor job at promoting small market teams, they only focus on a few teams each season which is kind of boring. ESPN doesn't help by always talking about the same 4 players every night. Now they will ad Wembayama and it will become 5. People hated on the Play-In games but now they like it. Stop being adverse to change. One of the reasons the NFL is the most watched sport in America is because it's always changing. Fans have come to expect change in the NFL so they don't complain when a new rule or change is made.
I’ll probably finally watch the regular season now
I actually feel that the reward isn't enough. 500k isnt a lot of money for these players (especially superstars). Why would a superstar tear his back out competing for pocket money.
The incentive should be something that helps a team move the needle when it comes to winning the chip
The end season tournaments should promote players not to tank. What they should do is guarantee the winner a top 10 protected first round pick
This seems like a good idea. I think it would be cool if they also invited international teams
I said it before but I think bench players will go offffff. That money will be big for them
I’m confused how it’s “what’s the point” but also “why is it that much money”. Finals means more in terms of pride so it’s good that they’re giving a good amount in money incentive to compensate for this
Only two teams get to the Finals, and only one gets a ring so having something for all the other teams is okay. It doesn't take anything away from other stuff. And like JJ said, we'll see in a few years.
For us in Europe it’s rediculus that no team can be expelled from the league even tho some of them are almost every year at the very bottom places
These players don’t care like they did in the early 2000’s competition was so high back then felt like each possession mattered
In the French Pro B (2nd division) the mid season cup winner gets an automatic entry into the playoffs
Has anyone ever watched English soccer… this type of move has been tried and true. It’s a good idea
Mid season tournament winner should have 10 wins added to their season record at the end. If that pushes them to 1st spot, they have the choice to choose their season position and selectively choose who they play in the first round.
I don’t think teams will try to lose but they’re just gonna treat it like regular season games
They should make the prize of the inseason tournament - steal a single home game at any point in the playoffs. Use it or lose it. Would give incentive for playoff teams to go for the W
They take pride in soccer for winning as much silverware as possible.