What do you think? Still undecided? What other options for more sustainable solar do we have? Is copper the clear answer…or is its reputation too tarnished? The first 100 people to use code UNDECIDED at the link below will get 20% off of Incogni: incogni.com/undecided Join the solar guide waitlist: link.undecidedmf.com/3lrnWzE If you liked this video, check out The truth about wind turbines - how bad are they? th-cam.com/video/WsswrLKlinU/w-d-xo.html
I don't know why you'd think copper's the right way to go though. Right now most electronics markets are crippled due to the current war. Copper, Lithium and pretty much most base resources required for EV/technology are already heavily impacted, and that production will take 5+ years to start increasing again. Then you get into China's problems and the issue with chip production as a whole. The reality is we're going to be asking the important question of which of these options to invest in, because we're not going to have enough to completely satisfy even one industry, and you're not doubling production in anything less than 10 years at minimum.
The silver paste is something used in other electronics, it is a well established product in the supply chain, the copper-based solution probably won't be cheaper.
We're already at a 500,000 ton copper deficient, and it's expected to increase in cost from just over $4 per pound, to around $5.50 per pound next year. Also, when talking about panels needing to be more efficient AND cheaper, you're comparing them to fossil fuels. Worldwide (before Covid), fossil fuels got $400 billion in subsidies. All renewables only got $66 billion. ALSO, you have to factor in the extreme medical costs due to FF use. 8 million direct deaths, and another 26 million people who die earlier due to FF making their conditions worse. Considering that only around 55 million people die every year, that means literally more than half the people are affected by FF. The world spends over $8 trillion on healthcare..... We don't need solar panels to be any cheaper, or more efficient than now, for them to be a LOT cheaper than fossil fuels. Let's compare *ALL* the costs so we can make a fair comparison. Of you count climate change and healthcare costs, fossil fuels get $6 TRILLION in subsidies per year, and increasing rapidly. Just the money wasted on fossil fuel subsidies would easily pay for switching to renewables.
As a former Eastman Kodak employee, it's a good thing that Silver Halide based photography has all but disappeared. At one time Kodak was the world's largest Silver consumer at more than 10 million troy ounces per year. That's 311 metric tons. That total would have been much more had it not been for the internal "silver recovery" infrastructure, that recycled defective products and captured trillions of sprocket hole punches. Copper forward now.
Global production of silver is somewhere between 20-25 thousand metric tons. you mean kodak was consuming more than 1% of the world production? Assuming this all goes into the gel, you will need more than 100 times this amount of high quality gelatine. that is around 31 thousand tons of gelatine. that about daily 1 ton of silver and more than 100 tons of gelatin.
Does the US government still have Silver reserves? imagine we gifted it to a US solar panel manufacturer if they passed on the savings to individual renters and homeowners
As with most technologies, I think copper-based panels will become dominant only because the economics finally make sense due to high silver prices. Great reporting on this as always!
I worked on this about 10 years ago. My co-workers & I were working with a university in the south west U.S. - we were funded by a government grant. I designed the electroplating cells (Copper, Tin & Nickel) while my associates designed the electroplating chemistry. The University was the main player while we were the hired help. When the project kind of faded away we were left wondering what happened - thanks for the update. Also - yes there are significant challenges that are not immediately apparent to the uninitiated.
Copper adhesion is the least of their worries. The biggest issue is copper migration in the silicon. Solar cells are essentially large PN junctions but copper’s incredible ability to migrate through the silicon crystal lattice at low temperatures turn it into a large conductor. This is the biggest hurdle to overcome. A barrier metal will need to be used, like Ta or Ti to prevent diffusion of copper into silicon
@@GNP3WP3W What is it that allows copper to diffuse into the silicon? I thought it was smaller molecules that could fit through the lattice, but copper is bigger than silicon? You don’t have to explain it all, but are there resources you could point me to?
@@GNP3WP3W copper (II) ions are bigger than Al(III) ions and should migrate slower. I believe that Cu makes poor ohmic junction because of lattice mismatch (I read it somewhere but cannot recollect the ref)
@@janami-dharmam I have looked up more information on this and the reason copper is such an issue is that it has the fastest diffusivity coefficient in silicon. The fact that LSI manufacturers chemically and mechanically planarize wafers increases this coefficient.
A little note about Silver sustainability/scarcity, currently silver isnt mined directly but rather is obtained as a byproduct of copper and gold production. Many silver rich/low Cu deposits does exist but are not exploited yet but will be as soon the price is high enough.
Industry has no reason to exploit high silver deposits. Silver has in every usability case no advantage as only the high resistance against oxidization makes it viable as a substitute in certain applications, but for pure performance copper or gold will outshine silver no matter the case, which shows in the value it is sold for right now! And in no way will "production" of solar cells that will have to suffer the cost of the mine operation survive it. If the deposits were to exploited exclusivly for solar it will make the costs for a square meter of solar cells go through the roof compared to every other energy production method that already is established. If people think this shit is viable/sustainable it is not, because no populous will suffer through a price increase of 2,3 or more times indirectly inflating living costs by the same amount and not will behead governments. And no halfing the energy usage or making energy consumption 3 times more efficient will not happen. Proponents of such technology have zero clue about the wider implications. ROFLMAO.
I know a mine that %2 sliver and %4 platinum. I do not know how far it reaches, but the rocks were so high of Mohs that they would take down the entire mountain to get what silver and platinum that was there!
@@mariusm5660 need no, but want yes. If you have a cheaper material that provides a better product (in theory) then yes bring that to the consumer. If this works you could increase the margin of a company by 5-10% that is not nothing and has nothing to do with silver itself, but dollars and cents.
One of the awesome things about copper is it's ability to alloy and that makes me wonder what you could alloy it with to replace silver and make it better than just copper.
Copper can be alloyed to silver. This makes the copper a bit more malleable, which I imagine would be a benefit in a product subject to routine thermally-driven expansion and contraction. Small amounts of copper and silver can be added to tin to make lead-free solder, which is not fun to work with but has high conductivity. I imagine that alloys have been considered and possibly discarded as the cost of the alloy exceeds the cost of either copper or silver in their refined state.
Matt, Your enthusiasm is carrying you to be more viewed everyday. The video on the copper contact issue with solar is a very key part of dropping solar costs even more. Cost of panels and cost of installation are so important. I can see the dropping of silver very very soon, it's just too expensive. Your videos are always ahead of the tide of the energy world. I am now waiting for everything that you can put into the next video. Your videos are very much like the drive to make solar cheaper, just ahead of of the crowd enough that it's valuable!!!
While important, deployment of solar is only half of the equation. The other half is reduction of usage. Many people who find that they struggle to afford solar for one reason or another could look into getting the insulation in their homes replaced or having someone come in to seal up cracks around windows where heat is escaping. Once they’ve done this, people may find that solar becomes cheaper to install because their home no longer requires such a large system!
Energy use reduction will be essential. Much more than half the equation. Did you know that in America, our appliances memory and us leaving our wall chargers plugged in when not charging anything, uses all the electricity from 2 full size coal power plants? And you have to be careful sealing up a house. They tried super insulating houses back in the 1980's. Took about 5 years, and windows started rotting out left and right. My sister's house had literally every window rot out. The fix was to punch small holes in the house and install a fan. People release a LOT of moisture into the air, even when not sweating at all.
I am very excited to hear about what you are doing to help with residential solar panels. I would love if this help would include some bullet pointed arguments to present to my HOA so that I can get them to rewrite the bylaw that prevents me from doing that
Federal law prevents HOAs from stopping you from installing solar. They can request it be put on specific roof sections or limited area but can’t stop the thing in total. If you want help with this, I work at Enphase, and have C-level contacts with all the big names- and great relationships with their reps, and local installers.
@@BabaBabelOm I live in a 60-70s built apartment building with a fairly flat roof with limited public lawn area. They have been nice to allow gardening but with limited area and no liability for theft. I'm interested in what you are talking about and if that translates to me as a renter (not owner). I would love to do it but due to time restrictions I stopped doing the garden and used to have Direct TV. But they stopped allowing us to use the satellite dish, in effect banning it. I wanted to put up starlink but I was told no as well. Do you think because I'm a person who rents I no longer have the same rights as a owner?
@@nomore-constipation yeah.. renters dont have the same rights. owners have the final say. its been that way forever. you have to have the owner's permission to do any changes to the property. satellite dish installations that are anchored to a surface damage that surface. damage is caused by drilling and sealants. Renters are similar to paying guests but a small step up, you get a key, can send your mail there, and you can furnish the place. you might be able to convince the owner to let you do starlink if the installation doesn't require drilling into the building. maybe build a box and fill it with cement as an anchor. that way the dish is secured from heavy wind and it can be removed without damage to the building. only other thing to think about is cable routing which is usually done by drilling a hole in a wall or roof.
@@nomore-constipation the reasons for not allowing those could vary but i do not beleive there are any protections for tenants to be able to choose their own utilities. If you live in the US tthen it is likely the landowner or management company have an agreement with an MSP, such as the local Cable company; to provide TV and Internet service to tenants. the cable company thusly probably threatened the complex over allowing satellite TV/Internet services. But it could also just be something as simple as them not wanting all the extra weight of a bunch of metal dishes on the roof or having to have a bunch of extra holes/wires on the building for them.
Got solar panels installed in southern NH after seeing your success in MA. Company that helped me out I definitely recommend, and the insight into the generation is amazing. Definitely recommend Harvey Woods if other folks area up in our neck of the woods.
@@randomdodads I don’t disagree. Copper based solar would be great. I just objected to what I regarded as the deceptive implication that the price of silver was going steadily up with increased production of solar panels.
My roof (UK) has SunPower (California / USA made) panels since 2012 (Compact size E19 was rated ar 250watts, 19% efficiency / E21 was 270watts and 20-21%) They are still around.
The thing I find interesting about SunDrive is they also say that the process can be used on much thinner wafers, which on its own would seem to make a big difference: the issues over the last few years quite aside from solar have clearly demonstrated how much of a problem our dependence on silicon wafers is, anything to reduce the size of them has got to be huge, particularly in terms of cost but also like silver in driving those prices in other markets for silicon.
The latest developments that have my attention are around tandem cells, or those sandwiching two or more cell types that actually harvest different bandwidths. Some light passes through a thin film, then onto a silicon cell, and you have a 40% boost to power output. That's a big deal! I'm hopeful perovskites get there, but want to see more from CdTe regardless.
Learnt alot today: % efficiency, copper oxidation, diffusion, delamination. Lower material and possibly manufacturing costs compered to silver. Offset by 20 yr to 35 yr reliability issues. Ongoing improvements and methods. Well done.
There is a valid method of acceleration of environmental testing to predict long-term reliability. Look up Arrhenius test methodology. I have used it in other areas to satisfactory results.
We have to wait until February!!! Hope you have something good. Been debating over panels over shingles. Planning demolishing and starting a new built .
There's nothing to crack. They already recycle about 10% of panels. And companies are building facilities to increase how many are recycled. They have also recently figured out how to make(and have sold) recyclable wind turbine blades. They're also currently building battery recycling plants.
Thank you for this really interesting video! It's a good example of how many technological problems can be overcome if you put enough time and ingenuity (and sometimes new people with fresh approaches) into solving them.
I installed four Shell solar panels on the roof of our Monaco coach 20 years ago. They still work very well. The coach is stored outdoors, unprotected in all weathers so I am well pleased with their performance, keeping my bank of batteries fully charged. The only maintenance they have received is the occasional wash and polish.
have you looked into, or do you plan to look into, what happened to optical rectennas ? NREL had a push in that direction some years ago but then nothing. Very good work, I love your videos.
I was printing nano-copper circuits back in 2015 but the issue is that copper oxides are non-conductive but silver remains a good conductor even in higher oxidation states.
Southeast Florida solar cost analysis: As of 2022 a complete solar system on the roof would cost me about $50 more per month than grid supplied power. I would still do it, but the homeowners insurance company would cancel the policy. Roofs here are an integral part of the hurricane envelope. I don't have enough land to place panels freestanding. I would like to install whole house battery backup system externally. So far, the only external whole-house battery backup systems available (Tesla, Generac, etc.) must include a solar system.
Unfortunately, renewables have to compete with FF on subsidies. And worldwide, FF get $400 billion in subsidies, while all renewables only get $66 billion. (Numbers pre-covid) Luckily in most places, renewables are cheaper even with the extra subsidies FF get. Maybe fewer panels mounted on poles, and a small wind turbine would work. Wind is also cheaper than solar. Solar is the most expensive renewable, but also provides a truly staggering number of jobs. At 2.7% of electricity production, solar provides just over 500,000 jobs. Coal makes 63% of electricity, but only provides just under 900,000 jobs.
Why don't you opt for options like EcoFlow's Deltas and a few others that you can have installed for grid's backups? These systems WILL backs up your grid power WITHOUT the need for external generators such as solar, gasoline and so on.
@@lordgarion514 "Globally, fossil fuel subsidies are were $5.9 trillion or 6.8 percent of GDP in 2020 and are expected to increase to 7.4 percent of GDP in 2025 as the share of fuel consumption in emerging markets (where price gaps are generally larger) continues to climb." Per the IMF.
@@macmcleod1188 THAT'S including the "cost" of climate change as well. I'm talking about the money and tax breaks we directly give to fossil fuel companies.
@@macmcleod1188 This is everything the IMF numbers include. "Implicit subsidies occur when the retail price fails to include external costs and/or there are preferential consumption tax rates on energy. External costs include contributions to climate change through greenhouse gas emissions, local health damages (primarily pre-mature deaths) through the release of harmful local pollutants like particulates, and traffic congestion and accident externalities associated with the use of road fuels."
Thank you very much for this awesome video! Of course, we at PV2+ GmbH are convinced that copper plating is the next big thing in the solar industry and I think we have good reasons for that. As you said, BP's technology was good, but too expensive. Unfortunately, BP pulled out of the solar industry instead of improving the technology and lowering the processing cost. Suntech's approach was much simpler and cheaper, but not mature enough for mass production. Today, the situation is different. We have analyzed and solved the adhesion problems. The production cost of solar modules has decreased exponentially, and the share of raw materials in the cost is increasing, despite all efforts to reduce material consumption. This situation makes entry into copper technology more attractive than ever, and as soon as one manufacturer is commercially successful with this, all others will follow.
Well put together Matt. Addressing the silver usage in solar cell metallisation will be crucial for not only sustainability but also increasing the efficiency potential.
Copper also has long-term availability issues. Also, the smaller the wires, the more difficult it gets to recover when recycling due to dispersive losses. Ideally we would find a solution that can be fully recycled, from abundent metals, such as aluminum, or why not silicon itself ? Recently I came across high efficiency and low cost SHINGLED solar cells from Bluesolar which seem to use neither silver nor copper, pour a lot less, but I'm not sure. I need further research in the new modules architecture.
Just a couple of points - the material used needs to be as conductive as possible - hence the use of silver (copper comes a close second in this respect). Other metals (Aluminium included) have higher resistance, so would reduce the efficiency of the panels. Also, I would point out that "recycling" aluminium is a very wasteful process - because the metal is so reactive when it's melted, a lot is oxidized and forms a non-conductive slag of Aluminium Oxide. When it comes to making electical connections both silver and copper bond well with solder - other metals simply throw solder off, so manufacturing would be a nightmare!
The amount of silver needed to apply a layer using screen printing is significant, but once the parts that aren't needed are removed the amount of silver on each square meter of panel is fairly small -- probably less than a dollar per square meter. Of course, if the silver that's removed isn't recycled then the total amount of silver used might well be a significant percentage of the total cost, but I find it hard to believe they can't recycle the excess paste.
it's likely you could be the cost is so high they rather don't, just like plastic recycling... most of the "recycling" involve shipping those biohazards to "third world" countries like Malaysia and China and the like... which when those countries reject the "import" they go on a whirlwind tour for the next "victim"...
Haha, Tarnished! Well done Matt! Cu sure seems to have a bright future. I wonder if a kind of Conformal Coating could be applied to eliminate oxidation. Cheers, Eric
So it sounds like there is nothing to worry about. If silver based panels get too expensive then copper tech is ready to take over. I mean it sounds like the only reason we haven't switched to copper is that the silver panels are so cheap.
It's really not though. Copper is a vastly more useful metal than silver, and we already mine about a half million tons less than we need, with demand climbing MUCH faster than production is increasing.
My panels are 22.5% efficient and they're silver based(Sunpower SPR-M435-H-AC). I'm looking to increase generating capacity in the future when I switch to electric furnace and hot water heater. The best parts of my roof are taken up so more efficient panels would be nice. I'll be eagerly watching this development.
I had no idea Silver was so vital for solar panel production. Doesn't sound like the demand or price for solar and silver is going to go down. So best of luck to the Copper pioneers. And SunDrive sounds like something out of Star Wars :)
My Gas and Electric for my 1400 square foot house was $840 this month, when the worst winter months were $600 in the past.CON-ED is getting out of hand Leaning to SOLAR hard. This is really high and we HAVE NOT had a winter this year, it has been 45 degrees on average with some 70 degree days in the NYC area. I AM ALSO FROM ROCHESTER!
They should add super thin layer of silver into the groove, then put copper on top of that. That way the copper isn't in direct contact with the silicon and has a harder time delaminating. Making the groove deeper should make it harder for the copper to delaminate / bend up and break off too, as it makes it a wider ribbon of metal that is harder to bend.
You mentioned recycling the old panels. As a solar integrator for over 20 years disposing of damaged or old modules, it is costly and there are few that recycle in our area.
Hey Matt, great story. As a Sydneysider, great to see the UNSW alumni starting Sundrive. Just a bit concerned about the sourcing of copper around the world, particularly in parts of Africa, China & environmentally sensitive areas of South America. Hopefully enough can be sourced responsibly. Cheers, Greg.
great information and video. thanks for always pointing out the drawbacks and challenges, instead of glossing over them. Keeps your channel way more interesting
Agreed, especially when the information seems promising for reducing the cost of a renewable technology, and possibly increasing the efficiency. Increasing efficiency of SPV to 50% would be astronomical, I realize we’re nowhere close to that but doubling the efficiency halves the amount of panels, roof space or land needed thus halving the cost, or alternatively doubles the output of electricity for the same area and cost. It’d also make solar practical in some places where it wouldn’t have been previously - smaller locations where the setup cost wouldn’t otherwise be justifiable (ie profitable), so doubling efficiency would (potentially) result in more than doubling the total amount of energy generated as it permits greater penetration of the technology.
Why not a alloy of silver and copper to get the best of both materials? Can 25% silver 75% copper alloy "ink" be a viable option for the screen printing method?
Hey man. Love your work. I am concerned about the sponsor you have chosen. While Incogni's services work, they have intentionally made it hard to unsubscribe. I hope you consider not taking sponsors with dark design patterns.
I switched to induction cooking a year ago. I’ll never go back to gas. I live in a small RV and propane cooking polluted the air quickly. With induction I don’t have to deal with that.
Been short silver for days. It's been going down for a while, rapidly. Could be some much big players shorting to get prices down for manufacturers of all sorts.
Why not just make a copper-silver alloy, silver-nickel alloy, or a silver-aluminum alloy. I'm sure if you get the ratios right you could use them in the same application while significantly cutting costs.
Long time subscriber to your channel for a few years now I think the first video I saw of your was about problem with solar? I live in an apartment so I can't put Solar on the roof? BUT I have a balcony that in the Summer gets a lot of sun as it faces North West and I live 62.24, 25.78. so in the Hight of winter the day lasts about 5 hours and the sun is low in the sky. I have seen a LOT of videos showing small portable solar set ups BUT either can you PLEASE do a video on setting up a small system???? OR do you or anyone reading this could point me in the right direction. My thought is that I could set up a system to power my Computer and charge my phone, tablet and laptop (when I get my laptop fixed??) But it's know what sort of battery pack I would need etc
CuBert sounds like a fantastic option if it does work. Just swapping over from a sliver to copper paste without any major overhauls sounds ideal for manufacturers.
Silver prices have essentially been flat (there is some ups and downs) for several years. I collect coins as well as own bullion and watch it closely. While it fluctuates a lot, it has not radically changed. Additionally, copper is just a volatile as silver on a percentage basis.
guess i need to check on the panel i made 20 years ago, we did sputter alcusi on monocrystaline wafers and some might have ended up on audi a8 solar roofs. i would try to combine alcusi as a paste with the cut groves. the alcusi sticks better to the silicon then pure cupper with some baking, the groves might help too even if that dosnt work that great and also will help with the shadowing...but thats just my idea, no idea how that might work out or impact prices
How about an alloy hollow elastic wire? electricity travels on the outside of a wire not in it, so you could have it compressed into the solar panel, the allow would need to stop any bleed off of copper into the rest of the panel.
I went down a quick rabbithole of screen printing compatible copper inks. Gotta say, there are way more options than just CuBert - it just needs manufacturers to embrace them. That being said, CuBert has the advantage with the plug'n'play chemistry. I hope it ends up being widely adopted.
The IC industry uses Aluminum for conductors. They have been doing it a long time. It seems that this would be an alternative if there is a way to do large areas at a low cost. I think the method used for ICs is to put down a layer of aluminum, mask it and then etch away what you don't want. This may be expensive on a solar panel.
they need conductivity for efficiency, silver, copper, and gold in that order are the best single element conductors of both electricity and heat. aluminum, while conductive is pretty bad at it comparatively. aluminum though is very cheap compared to copper you just lose efficiency in all ways that matter. not great conducting electricity, not great at thermal transfer, again, compared to any of the top 3.
And they can do etching on any of the metals mentioned. Chip production is done with copper and photoresistive etching masks. Aluminum is also used in many cables despite it's lower efficiency because when you are going to be suspending a massive cable the weight matters more.
@@randysterbentz5599 You can reduce resistance by making cables thicker, and aluminum is so much lighter than copper, that even after making it thick enough to match a copper conductor, it still weighs less. That means longer spans between power poles.
Awww man, it gives me pride and enthusiasm to see the Aussie solar innovators plugging away. It makes me wish I'd focused on that (or anything) at uni after dabbling in model solar cars in high school.
Unfortunately, they are mostly copper coated zinc (anything after 1982). Plus, the government made it illegal to melt down pennies! Pennies before 1982 are worth more in copper than their face value. It is border line on the value for the zinc jobs.
I saw a show somewhere on youtube...The WW2 uranium separation machines needed a bunch of copper, but supply was all tied up in the war effort. So they borrowed silver from the treasury.
Silver's industrial uses and demand sure hasn't made the price skyrocket like all the precious metal investors had hoped. We keep wanting $50/ozt but it never comes!
Would you please, PLEASE consider using chapter marks on the progress bar. Most of my favourite channels have started doing this, and it's a great benefit to the viewer.
I can tell you fella that just using water heating panels are still 4 to 5 times as efficient and they do not ever burn out or get degraded. I an using two 4 x 12 feet panels which in turn heats my hot water usage. Been working for years. The only negative thing is when a large tree branch decided to spear the panel. A leaky mess. Replaced the glass window and resoldered the copper plate plus tubing and back to work it goes. Other than that is still works fine. Still waiting for solar cells to get higher efficacy Matt. Good day too.
Copper's a more abundant, already commercially available material. While it may cause some price rise, the scale of solar demand is nothing compared to what already exists.
It’s wayyyyyyy more abundant in the earth, and able to be recycled from consumer items in mass now. It’s possible, but not likely anytime in the next 100yrs. There’s a medical university in Arizona that has an exterior panels made of copper, because it reflects the sun and is mined nearby, and the cost was low compared to alternatives that may need to be serviced or replaced.
Looking at doing a solar install myself pretty soon. Planning for a complete DIY system right now outside of maybe a couple final connections but that means my total cost of investment will be a lot less than others and I want to do micro inverters so I can spread the investment out a bit. Thankfully I am in a small town where the limitations of DIY is a lot less than a lot of other area's. In the process of replacing my roof, rewiring, installing insulation, and a ton of other things. House was built around 1911 so there are a lot of little issues to deal with and sadly the previous owner was basically a slum lord. Already replaced all the water supply lines because it went from one material to another at random, was completely sub standard, and the water heater was plumbed backwards...
a simple right angle grid of fingers and busbars seems like not the most efficient space-filling curve possible. Surely something more fractal derived would be able to accomplish the same power spread with the same or less line length, though maybe the manufacturing of that is too hard still
It would take to long to build nuclear plants necessary to tackle the energy needs for climate change and for cheaper energy in our current government structure.
@@BenoitMassicotte your answer is just being late to address the problem, I at least support solar power that can address the issues sooner than a Decade..... how would you address the problem while nuclear power plants take decades to build and implement? I also never said that we shouldn't build them
@@KingHavocDraigo I see, we should pollute even more to make solar panels that work intermittently by their very nature, are unscalable for large use, have poor life cycles. And use fossil fuel burning to cover when the sun is down... Like we do now, bringing the cost of energy AND pollution way, way up for everyone. Another much cleaner solution is hydro if possible. Thank you.
@@BenoitMassicotte how do people live life offgrid with solar panels then? how does eco flow make their solar generators? ohh right people who strawman and gaslight like you don't think ahead, actually you don't think at all
@UndecidedwithMattFerrell I'm sorry if this seems off-topic. Have you reviewed electric "sub-floor" radiant heating? I'm curious to use this in an upcoming home renovation.
The fatal flaw is they only work when and where it's sunny. They only really make sense in the desert. I live in Albuquerque and my panels only put out about 1/7 the power on our rare cloudy days. Fortunately, we have 300 sunny days per year here
Panels still make sense even near the notoriously cloudy Manchester (UK), speaking from personal experience. Mine will never make my home independent of the grid but they still produce more kWh annually than we use.
@@stevept1504 perhaps, but you need a massive array to do that. It’s a waste to put such a thing in Manchester rather than Morocco, where it could easily produce 5-7x the power. It’s doubtful you’ll ever break even on the energy required to produce them
@@stevept1504 my 5 kw array, with panels facing SE and SW rather than due south, routinely produces 26 kWh per day in the middle of winter, but only 3.5 kWh on our rare cloudy day, or only 1.5 if we have a little snow overnight. That suggests it’s 7x more effective somewhere that’s always sunny. How is yours performing?
@@blurglide You're not wrong, they'd certainly churn out more power if I lived in Morocco or Albuquerque, but their power is needed here in this moist, maritime-influenced, cloudy climate. 300 sunny days per year where you are, wow! I'm not going to quote Manchester's equivalent statistic. 🤣
@@stevept1504 put another way, a panel in Morroco would reduce 700% as much carbon emissions as a panel in Manchester. Best to put them there and use the fossil fuels in the UK, rather than the other way around as is happening now. Or, put the capital investment into nuclear. There’s a reason power is do absurdly expensive in Germany.
This copper option is intriguing, but let's not forget how important it is to find panels not assembled by slaves in China or with cobalt hand-mined by African children dropped by ropes into holes in the earth.
Nice try, but its the USA who has 20% of the world's prisoners from 5% of the human population. And the 13th Ammendment? Carved out an exception to slavery for prisoners. Meanwhile, China is well off enough to *claim* they've abolished poverty. Whether thats true? Takes work to dig up after piercing their "Great Firewall" of state censorship.
The cobalt is used in Lithium ion batteries of a particular kind, not in solar panels. Don't know about the "slaves" since the propaganda is so thick between the empires. For solar power, lithium batteries will be replaced by cheaper tech.
@@tomspencer1364the slave claims are confirmed - Uighurs are assembling them in "re-education" centers. Your cobalt point is fair criticism. Cobalt is indeed used in lithium batteries, not panels. But storing harvested solar energy at scale in anything other than a lithium battery is uncommon. Cobalt and solar panels go hand in hand.
@@socrazybmx Other technologies should be replacing Lithium before long except for the high end vehicles. There are probable other sources of cobalt or substitutions if someone wants to do the research. No doubt the Turkic liberation types are suffering, but they would not be happy until all the Chinese were gone. And the Chinese have been there for 1000 years or more like 2000. I don't expect objective truth from either side since that is not the way of Empires. Nor is righteousness much defense against the legions.
Maxeon has a back contact solar cell that has a solid copper foundation that is coated in nickel to prevent corrosion. These are the cells used in SunPower’s top end panels. Costs more than these front contact panels for sure but huge benefits in efficiency (no shading from the “fingers”) and durability. Have been deployed for decades in both residential and commercial projects. Strange omission from an otherwise very comprehensive video.
I was just about to post something saying I thought Maxeon Technologies (formerly SunPower) panels use a copper backplate instead of silver on the face. It's kind of a strange omission from this video as SunPower, prior to the split of the company, was one of the top manufacturer's and installers of solar panels. I have no first hand knowledge of course, but supposedly their panels were more durable, had higher conversion rates, and lower degradation rates than any other solar panel out there and also happened to have the longest warranty as well. From what I heard they were the best constructed panels but their one negative aspect is that they were generally costlier than other panels. I never did the math, but it seemed like over a long time period (30-60 Years) they would wind up being cheaper (up front cost divided by total lifetime energy provided) than other panels that were cheaper up front, but wouldn't last as long and would have higher degradation rates.
If we're not getting phone service from Ma' Bell's plain ol' twisted service (POTS) anymore but we're now getting phone service from fiber or coaxial cable (VoIP), is the century's worth of copper wire still sitting on utility poles around the country?
I really enjoy your pun presentation style. Ive been watching your show every week since Joe Scott highlighted your channel a number of years ago. Thank you for all of the effort and dedication.
So are there any reasons why a thin layer of silver is not used first, i.e. before copper paste is applied, to prevent all the problems associated with copper? Has anyone tried that commercially and what are the costs involved?
I really liked GTAT’s Merlin Metallization process which is ha hybrid, reducing silver by 80% while using copper to connect. Unfortunately they flew too close to the sun with a completely unrelated Apple sapphire growth deal and went bankrupt. A small startup bought the IP for the metallization, and seem to be trying to use it for niche applications where the increased flexibility/durability are helpful, but I still think it can/should be used much more broadly.
Hi Matt.. Yet another great video. I am really glad I found your channel... Also, I had a feeling you were from the Western NY area.. I am also from Rochester originally. Tampa Bay since 1994' though... Health pushed us to the Sunny part of the country!!
I'm more interested if any of these improvements make solar environmentally worth it. Currently, in places with lower solar gain, like New England, you never make back the environmental cost of producing. Will switching to copper change that?
I'm not quite done with the video yet, but I haven't heard the idea of a film of silver on the silicon, to adhere the copper. I would expect that the techs know some trick to "glue" silver and copper together in an acceptable way.
While it would be great to supplant copper for silver in this application, the argument starting at about 3:35 regarding recycling of silver ignores the other applications of silver. Recycling doesn’t have to be solely from older solar panels, it could be from other materials that contain or are composed of silver. Thus the concept that recycling won’t be viable for a few decades is questionable. The predominant mass of historically mined silver would have to be locked up in existing solar panels for that concept to be applicable. I know of two BP solar arrays installed in 2007 and 2008, respectively, located in Southern California that are still working in 2023 with only minor loss of efficiency; the inverters died before the panels showed much efficiency loss.
What about a 2 step process, with a thin silver coating followed by a much thicker copper coating. They bound together really well, so maybe you can use much less silver that way.
@@SquintyGears you get a Like of acknowledgement 👍 photovoltaic/solar thermal technician 10yrs goldsmith/master jeweler 55yrs + experience here.: i rarely used nickel to silver plate or gold plate copper. i would use nickel to thicken a piece to use to mold making purposes
What do you think? Still undecided? What other options for more sustainable solar do we have? Is copper the clear answer…or is its reputation too tarnished? The first 100 people to use code UNDECIDED at the link below will get 20% off of Incogni: incogni.com/undecided
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I don't know why you'd think copper's the right way to go though. Right now most electronics markets are crippled due to the current war. Copper, Lithium and pretty much most base resources required for EV/technology are already heavily impacted, and that production will take 5+ years to start increasing again. Then you get into China's problems and the issue with chip production as a whole. The reality is we're going to be asking the important question of which of these options to invest in, because we're not going to have enough to completely satisfy even one industry, and you're not doubling production in anything less than 10 years at minimum.
If copper works this well, I wonder how materials like aluminum or grapheme would do
The silver paste is something used in other electronics, it is a well established product in the supply chain, the copper-based solution probably won't be cheaper.
We're already at a 500,000 ton copper deficient, and it's expected to increase in cost from just over $4 per pound, to around $5.50 per pound next year.
Also, when talking about panels needing to be more efficient AND cheaper, you're comparing them to fossil fuels.
Worldwide (before Covid), fossil fuels got $400 billion in subsidies. All renewables only got $66 billion.
ALSO, you have to factor in the extreme medical costs due to FF use. 8 million direct deaths, and another 26 million people who die earlier due to FF making their conditions worse.
Considering that only around 55 million people die every year, that means literally more than half the people are affected by FF.
The world spends over $8 trillion on healthcare.....
We don't need solar panels to be any cheaper, or more efficient than now, for them to be a LOT cheaper than fossil fuels.
Let's compare *ALL* the costs so we can make a fair comparison.
Of you count climate change and healthcare costs, fossil fuels get $6 TRILLION in subsidies per year, and increasing rapidly.
Just the money wasted on fossil fuel subsidies would easily pay for switching to renewables.
graphene graphene graphene
As a former Eastman Kodak employee, it's a good thing that Silver Halide based photography has all but disappeared. At one time Kodak was the world's largest Silver consumer at more than 10 million troy ounces per year. That's 311 metric tons. That total would have been much more had it not been for the internal "silver recovery" infrastructure, that recycled defective products and captured trillions of sprocket hole punches. Copper forward now.
Global production of silver is somewhere between 20-25 thousand metric tons. you mean kodak was consuming more than 1% of the world production? Assuming this all goes into the gel, you will need more than 100 times this amount of high quality gelatine. that is around 31 thousand tons of gelatine. that about daily 1 ton of silver and more than 100 tons of gelatin.
@@janami-dharmam 40 years ago silver production was much lower.
Nostalgia the silver screen
😂
Does the US government still have Silver reserves? imagine we gifted it to a US solar panel manufacturer if they passed on the savings to individual renters and homeowners
I did a Google search the USA owns 25,000 metric tons how many solar panels does this equal to?
As with most technologies, I think copper-based panels will become dominant only because the economics finally make sense due to high silver prices. Great reporting on this as always!
I worked on this about 10 years ago. My co-workers & I were working with a university in the south west U.S. - we were funded by a government grant. I designed the electroplating cells (Copper, Tin & Nickel) while my associates designed the electroplating chemistry. The University was the main player while we were the hired help. When the project kind of faded away we were left wondering what happened - thanks for the update. Also - yes there are significant challenges that are not immediately apparent to the uninitiated.
Copper adhesion is the least of their worries. The biggest issue is copper migration in the silicon. Solar cells are essentially large PN junctions but copper’s incredible ability to migrate through the silicon crystal lattice at low temperatures turn it into a large conductor. This is the biggest hurdle to overcome. A barrier metal will need to be used, like Ta or Ti to prevent diffusion of copper into silicon
@@GNP3WP3W What is it that allows copper to diffuse into the silicon? I thought it was smaller molecules that could fit through the lattice, but copper is bigger than silicon? You don’t have to explain it all, but are there resources you could point me to?
@@timwildauer5063 I don’t know the specific reason but it is a property of copper that is well known in industry
@@GNP3WP3W copper (II) ions are bigger than Al(III) ions and should migrate slower. I believe that Cu makes poor ohmic junction because of lattice mismatch (I read it somewhere but cannot recollect the ref)
@@janami-dharmam I have looked up more information on this and the reason copper is such an issue is that it has the fastest diffusivity coefficient in silicon. The fact that LSI manufacturers chemically and mechanically planarize wafers increases this coefficient.
A little note about Silver sustainability/scarcity, currently silver isnt mined directly but rather is obtained as a byproduct of copper and gold production. Many silver rich/low Cu deposits does exist but are not exploited yet but will be as soon the price is high enough.
Industry has no reason to exploit high silver deposits. Silver has in every usability case no advantage as only the high resistance against oxidization makes it viable as a substitute in certain applications, but for pure performance copper or gold will outshine silver no matter the case, which shows in the value it is sold for right now! And in no way will "production" of solar cells that will have to suffer the cost of the mine operation survive it. If the deposits were to exploited exclusivly for solar it will make the costs for a square meter of solar cells go through the roof compared to every other energy production method that already is established.
If people think this shit is viable/sustainable it is not, because no populous will suffer through a price increase of 2,3 or more times indirectly inflating living costs by the same amount and not will behead governments. And no halfing the energy usage or making energy consumption 3 times more efficient will not happen. Proponents of such technology have zero clue about the wider implications. ROFLMAO.
I know a mine that %2 sliver and %4 platinum. I do not know how far it reaches, but the rocks were so high of Mohs that they would take down the entire mountain to get what silver and platinum that was there!
@@mickgibson370 please what is a moh?
Exactly. Silver does not need to be replaced anytime soon.
@@mariusm5660 need no, but want yes. If you have a cheaper material that provides a better product (in theory) then yes bring that to the consumer. If this works you could increase the margin of a company by 5-10% that is not nothing and has nothing to do with silver itself, but dollars and cents.
One of the awesome things about copper is it's ability to alloy and that makes me wonder what you could alloy it with to replace silver and make it better than just copper.
Copper can be alloyed to silver. This makes the copper a bit more malleable, which I imagine would be a benefit in a product subject to routine thermally-driven expansion and contraction. Small amounts of copper and silver can be added to tin to make lead-free solder, which is not fun to work with but has high conductivity. I imagine that alloys have been considered and possibly discarded as the cost of the alloy exceeds the cost of either copper or silver in their refined state.
cupronickel
Copper-Aluminum alloy has excellent corrosion resistance and durability.
The problem is Cu diffuses in silicon even at room temperature. A diffusion barrier is necessary.
@@Marcelcas how about a nano coating of silver? probably difficult to manufacture though 🤔
Matt, Your enthusiasm is carrying you to be more viewed everyday. The video on the copper contact issue with solar is a very key part of dropping solar costs even more. Cost of panels and cost of installation are so important. I can see the dropping of silver very very soon, it's just too expensive. Your videos are always ahead of the tide of the energy world. I am now waiting for everything that you can put into the next video. Your videos are very much like the drive to make solar cheaper, just ahead of of the crowd enough that it's valuable!!!
I didn't catch any words about SunPower/Maxeon solar cells. They are "built on a solid copper foundation".
Thanks
While important, deployment of solar is only half of the equation. The other half is reduction of usage.
Many people who find that they struggle to afford solar for one reason or another could look into getting the insulation in their homes replaced or having someone come in to seal up cracks around windows where heat is escaping. Once they’ve done this, people may find that solar becomes cheaper to install because their home no longer requires such a large system!
Energy use reduction will be essential. Much more than half the equation.
Did you know that in America, our appliances memory and us leaving our wall chargers plugged in when not charging anything, uses all the electricity from 2 full size coal power plants?
And you have to be careful sealing up a house. They tried super insulating houses back in the 1980's.
Took about 5 years, and windows started rotting out left and right.
My sister's house had literally every window rot out.
The fix was to punch small holes in the house and install a fan.
People release a LOT of moisture into the air, even when not sweating at all.
Thanks!
Thanks so much!
I am very excited to hear about what you are doing to help with residential solar panels. I would love if this help would include some bullet pointed arguments to present to my HOA so that I can get them to rewrite the bylaw that prevents me from doing that
Hi Zach. It doesn't, but that's a great suggestion for me to add to it. 👍
Federal law prevents HOAs from stopping you from installing solar. They can request it be put on specific roof sections or limited area but can’t stop the thing in total.
If you want help with this, I work at Enphase, and have C-level contacts with all the big names- and great relationships with their reps, and local installers.
@@BabaBabelOm I live in a 60-70s built apartment building with a fairly flat roof with limited public lawn area.
They have been nice to allow gardening but with limited area and no liability for theft. I'm interested in what you are talking about and if that translates to me as a renter (not owner).
I would love to do it but due to time restrictions I stopped doing the garden and used to have Direct TV. But they stopped allowing us to use the satellite dish, in effect banning it.
I wanted to put up starlink but I was told no as well. Do you think because I'm a person who rents I no longer have the same rights as a owner?
@@nomore-constipation yeah.. renters dont have the same rights. owners have the final say. its been that way forever.
you have to have the owner's permission to do any changes to the property. satellite dish installations that are anchored to a surface damage that surface. damage is caused by drilling and sealants.
Renters are similar to paying guests but a small step up, you get a key, can send your mail there, and you can furnish the place.
you might be able to convince the owner to let you do starlink if the installation doesn't require drilling into the building. maybe build a box and fill it with cement as an anchor. that way the dish is secured from heavy wind and it can be removed without damage to the building. only other thing to think about is cable routing which is usually done by drilling a hole in a wall or roof.
@@nomore-constipation the reasons for not allowing those could vary but i do not beleive there are any protections for tenants to be able to choose their own utilities. If you live in the US tthen it is likely the landowner or management company have an agreement with an MSP, such as the local Cable company; to provide TV and Internet service to tenants. the cable company thusly probably threatened the complex over allowing satellite TV/Internet services. But it could also just be something as simple as them not wanting all the extra weight of a bunch of metal dishes on the roof or having to have a bunch of extra holes/wires on the building for them.
Got solar panels installed in southern NH after seeing your success in MA. Company that helped me out I definitely recommend, and the insight into the generation is amazing. Definitely recommend Harvey Woods if other folks area up in our neck of the woods.
Silver prices have actually decreased since 2012 when it had hit $35 per ounce. It spiked up to $28 in 2020 but has been flat to lower ever since.
In April 2011 it was $47.50 . First thing I did was pause this video and check Silver prices , turns out it's not such a big problem after all.
Silver does have its swings. However, if you look at long term trends, the price pretty much keeps pace with the rate of inflation.
I guess the trend in actual price of silver - not a Cherry-picked data point - didn’t fit the narrative of the video.🤔
@@richardcoughlin8931 mm still Copper price is 1/100th the price of Silver which is the real kicker here...
@@randomdodads I don’t disagree. Copper based solar would be great. I just objected to what I regarded as the deceptive implication that the price of silver was going steadily up with increased production of solar panels.
My roof (UK) has SunPower (California / USA made) panels since 2012 (Compact size E19 was rated ar 250watts, 19% efficiency / E21 was 270watts and 20-21%) They are still around.
Really fascinating and inspiring history/development of all the twists & turns in the solar panel technology - thanks Matt!
The thing I find interesting about SunDrive is they also say that the process can be used on much thinner wafers, which on its own would seem to make a big difference: the issues over the last few years quite aside from solar have clearly demonstrated how much of a problem our dependence on silicon wafers is, anything to reduce the size of them has got to be huge, particularly in terms of cost but also like silver in driving those prices in other markets for silicon.
The latest developments that have my attention are around tandem cells, or those sandwiching two or more cell types that actually harvest different bandwidths. Some light passes through a thin film, then onto a silicon cell, and you have a 40% boost to power output. That's a big deal! I'm hopeful perovskites get there, but want to see more from CdTe regardless.
Learnt alot today: % efficiency, copper oxidation, diffusion, delamination. Lower material and possibly manufacturing costs compered to silver. Offset by 20 yr to 35 yr reliability issues. Ongoing improvements and methods. Well done.
There is a valid method of acceleration of environmental testing to predict long-term reliability. Look up Arrhenius test methodology. I have used it in other areas to satisfactory results.
8:56 Flashing black dot illusion!
We have to wait until February!!! Hope you have something good. Been debating over panels over shingles. Planning demolishing and starting a new built .
Sounds promising! End of life PV panel recycling is also a huge challenge that needs to be cracked.
There's nothing to crack. They already recycle about 10% of panels.
And companies are building facilities to increase how many are recycled.
They have also recently figured out how to make(and have sold) recyclable wind turbine blades.
They're also currently building battery recycling plants.
Thank you for this really interesting video! It's a good example of how many technological problems can be overcome if you put enough time and ingenuity (and sometimes new people with fresh approaches) into solving them.
Well this was a story that I had not heard before. Thank you for your research and for bringing it to us.
I installed four Shell solar panels on the roof of our Monaco coach 20 years ago. They still work very well. The coach is stored outdoors, unprotected in all weathers so I am well pleased with their performance, keeping my bank of batteries fully charged. The only maintenance they have received is the occasional wash and polish.
have you looked into, or do you plan to look into, what happened to optical rectennas ? NREL had a push in that direction some years ago but then nothing. Very good work, I love your videos.
Rectifying alternating current at such a high frequency is the challenge.
I was printing nano-copper circuits back in 2015 but the issue is that copper oxides are non-conductive but silver remains a good conductor even in higher oxidation states.
Southeast Florida solar cost analysis: As of 2022 a complete solar system on the roof would cost me about $50 more per month than grid supplied power. I would still do it, but the homeowners insurance company would cancel the policy. Roofs here are an integral part of the hurricane envelope. I don't have enough land to place panels freestanding. I would like to install whole house battery backup system externally. So far, the only external whole-house battery backup systems available (Tesla, Generac, etc.) must include a solar system.
Unfortunately, renewables have to compete with FF on subsidies.
And worldwide, FF get $400 billion in subsidies, while all renewables only get $66 billion.
(Numbers pre-covid)
Luckily in most places, renewables are cheaper even with the extra subsidies FF get.
Maybe fewer panels mounted on poles, and a small wind turbine would work.
Wind is also cheaper than solar.
Solar is the most expensive renewable, but also provides a truly staggering number of jobs.
At 2.7% of electricity production, solar provides just over 500,000 jobs. Coal makes 63% of electricity, but only provides just under 900,000 jobs.
Why don't you opt for options like EcoFlow's Deltas and a few others that you can have installed for grid's backups? These systems WILL backs up your grid power WITHOUT the need for external generators such as solar, gasoline and so on.
@@lordgarion514 "Globally, fossil fuel subsidies are were $5.9 trillion or 6.8 percent of GDP in 2020 and are expected to increase to 7.4 percent of GDP in 2025 as the share of fuel consumption in emerging markets (where price gaps are generally larger) continues to climb."
Per the IMF.
@@macmcleod1188
THAT'S including the "cost" of climate change as well.
I'm talking about the money and tax breaks we directly give to fossil fuel companies.
@@macmcleod1188
This is everything the IMF numbers include.
"Implicit subsidies occur when the retail price fails to include external costs and/or there are preferential consumption tax rates on energy. External costs include contributions to climate change through greenhouse gas emissions, local health damages (primarily pre-mature deaths) through the release of harmful local pollutants like particulates, and traffic congestion and accident externalities associated with the use of road fuels."
Thank you very much for this awesome video! Of course, we at PV2+ GmbH are convinced that copper plating is the next big thing in the solar industry and I think we have good reasons for that. As you said, BP's technology was good, but too expensive. Unfortunately, BP pulled out of the solar industry instead of improving the technology and lowering the processing cost. Suntech's approach was much simpler and cheaper, but not mature enough for mass production. Today, the situation is different. We have analyzed and solved the adhesion problems. The production cost of solar modules has decreased exponentially, and the share of raw materials in the cost is increasing, despite all efforts to reduce material consumption. This situation makes entry into copper technology more attractive than ever, and as soon as one manufacturer is commercially successful with this, all others will follow.
Well put together Matt. Addressing the silver usage in solar cell metallisation will be crucial for not only sustainability but also increasing the efficiency potential.
Hi Matt, I wonder if a copper alloy might be feasible... I like the idea of using more of the common elements for panels...Thanks, Ron..
Thank you, Matt, Great status update on the future of solar panels
Thanks for watching!
Copper also has long-term availability issues. Also, the smaller the wires, the more difficult it gets to recover when recycling due to dispersive losses.
Ideally we would find a solution that can be fully recycled, from abundent metals, such as aluminum, or why not silicon itself ?
Recently I came across high efficiency and low cost SHINGLED solar cells from Bluesolar which seem to use neither silver nor copper, pour a lot less, but I'm not sure. I need further research in the new modules architecture.
Just a couple of points - the material used needs to be as conductive as possible - hence the use of silver (copper comes a close second in this respect). Other metals (Aluminium included) have higher resistance, so would reduce the efficiency of the panels. Also, I would point out that "recycling" aluminium is a very wasteful process - because the metal is so reactive when it's melted, a lot is oxidized and forms a non-conductive slag of Aluminium Oxide. When it comes to making electical connections both silver and copper bond well with solder - other metals simply throw solder off, so manufacturing would be a nightmare!
The amount of silver needed to apply a layer using screen printing is significant, but once the parts that aren't needed are removed the amount of silver on each square meter of panel is fairly small -- probably less than a dollar per square meter. Of course, if the silver that's removed isn't recycled then the total amount of silver used might well be a significant percentage of the total cost, but I find it hard to believe they can't recycle the excess paste.
it's likely you could be the cost is so high they rather don't, just like plastic recycling... most of the "recycling" involve shipping those biohazards to "third world" countries like Malaysia and China and the like... which when those countries reject the "import" they go on a whirlwind tour for the next "victim"...
Haha, Tarnished! Well done Matt! Cu sure seems to have a bright future. I wonder if a kind of Conformal Coating could be applied to eliminate oxidation.
Cheers, Eric
So it sounds like there is nothing to worry about. If silver based panels get too expensive then copper tech is ready to take over. I mean it sounds like the only reason we haven't switched to copper is that the silver panels are so cheap.
Your totally correct… but It’s …the dispersing most of mankind’s known silver deposit into tiny super hard to get fragments all over the world …for me
It's really not though.
Copper is a vastly more useful metal than silver, and we already mine about a half million tons less than we need, with demand climbing MUCH faster than production is increasing.
...and silver, silver is insanely cheap. Do not be fooled by the USD price. Silver is at 80:1 vs Gold. Very cheap indeed.
@@mariusm5660 Are you suggesting the USD price somehow get the price of silver wrong? Or just that the price isn't really that high?
@@petergerdes1094 many precious metal prices are artificial.
My panels are 22.5% efficient and they're silver based(Sunpower SPR-M435-H-AC). I'm looking to increase generating capacity in the future when I switch to electric furnace and hot water heater. The best parts of my roof are taken up so more efficient panels would be nice. I'll be eagerly watching this development.
I had no idea Silver was so vital for solar panel production. Doesn't sound like the demand or price for solar and silver is going to go down. So best of luck to the Copper pioneers. And SunDrive sounds like something out of Star Wars :)
SunDrive Manufacturing would be an interesting ship company in SW for sure.
My Gas and Electric for my 1400 square foot house was $840 this month, when the worst winter months were $600 in the past.CON-ED is getting out of hand Leaning to SOLAR hard.
This is really high and we HAVE NOT had a winter this year, it has been 45 degrees on average with some 70 degree days in the NYC area.
I AM ALSO FROM ROCHESTER!
They should add super thin layer of silver into the groove, then put copper on top of that. That way the copper isn't in direct contact with the silicon and has a harder time delaminating. Making the groove deeper should make it harder for the copper to delaminate / bend up and break off too, as it makes it a wider ribbon of metal that is harder to bend.
maybe aluminium instead of silver for this idea. I know for a time it was used in wiring
Why not Copper-Aluminum alloy which has excellent corrosion resistance and durability.
@@ddbrosnahan maybe the low conductivity would be countering the benefits
what about graphene?
@@dominus6695 Hard to produce big amount
You mentioned recycling the old panels. As a solar integrator for over 20 years disposing of damaged or old modules, it is costly and there are few that recycle in our area.
Hey Matt, great story. As a Sydneysider, great to see the UNSW alumni starting Sundrive. Just a bit concerned about the sourcing of copper around the world, particularly in parts of Africa, China & environmentally sensitive areas of South America. Hopefully enough can be sourced responsibly.
Cheers, Greg.
That depends on the end consumers. If enough consumers make a big deal about it I am sure company's will clean up their act.
@@ronson53 Well then nothing will change, putting world scale problem on the individual wont solve anything.
great information and video. thanks for always pointing out the drawbacks and challenges, instead of glossing over them. Keeps your channel way more interesting
I love starting my day with one of Matt’s videos!
Appreciate that
Agreed, especially when the information seems promising for reducing the cost of a renewable technology, and possibly increasing the efficiency. Increasing efficiency of SPV to 50% would be astronomical, I realize we’re nowhere close to that but doubling the efficiency halves the amount of panels, roof space or land needed thus halving the cost, or alternatively doubles the output of electricity for the same area and cost.
It’d also make solar practical in some places where it wouldn’t have been previously - smaller locations where the setup cost wouldn’t otherwise be justifiable (ie profitable), so doubling efficiency would (potentially) result in more than doubling the total amount of energy generated as it permits greater penetration of the technology.
Why not a alloy of silver and copper to get the best of both materials? Can 25% silver 75% copper alloy "ink" be a viable option for the screen printing method?
I wonder if sputtering would work better than trying to make an ink?
definitely worth keeping an eye on.
Hey man. Love your work. I am concerned about the sponsor you have chosen. While Incogni's services work, they have intentionally made it hard to unsubscribe. I hope you consider not taking sponsors with dark design patterns.
I switched to induction cooking a year ago. I’ll never go back to gas. I live in a small RV and propane cooking polluted the air quickly. With induction I don’t have to deal with that.
Copper can be alloyed with other metals like nickel to make copper-nickel, it took Edison a while but when they found it look how far they went.
Why not alloy it with silver? If we cannot forego the use of silver, why not try to reduce the quantity needed?
nickel is one metal that mixes well with many others.
Been short silver for days. It's been going down for a while, rapidly. Could be some much big players shorting to get prices down for manufacturers of all sorts.
Why not just make a copper-silver alloy, silver-nickel alloy, or a silver-aluminum alloy. I'm sure if you get the ratios right you could use them in the same application while significantly cutting costs.
Why not Copper-Aluminum alloy which has excellent corrosion resistance and durability.
Long time subscriber to your channel for a few years now I think the first video I saw of your was about problem with solar?
I live in an apartment so I can't put Solar on the roof? BUT I have a balcony that in the Summer gets a lot of sun as it faces North West and I live 62.24, 25.78. so in the Hight of winter the day lasts about 5 hours and the sun is low in the sky.
I have seen a LOT of videos showing small portable solar set ups BUT either can you PLEASE do a video on setting up a small system???? OR do you or anyone reading this could point me in the right direction.
My thought is that I could set up a system to power my Computer and charge my phone, tablet and laptop (when I get my laptop fixed??) But it's know what sort of battery pack I would need etc
CuBert sounds like a fantastic option if it does work.
Just swapping over from a sliver to copper paste without any major overhauls sounds ideal for manufacturers.
That or a carbon base paste as well
@@adr2t Sure, that would be great too.
Why not Copper-Aluminum alloy, which has excellent corrosion resistance and durability?
Silver prices have essentially been flat (there is some ups and downs) for several years. I collect coins as well as own bullion and watch it closely. While it fluctuates a lot, it has not radically changed. Additionally, copper is just a volatile as silver on a percentage basis.
guess i need to check on the panel i made 20 years ago, we did sputter alcusi on monocrystaline wafers and some might have ended up on audi a8 solar roofs.
i would try to combine alcusi as a paste with the cut groves. the alcusi sticks better to the silicon then pure cupper with some baking, the groves might help too even if that dosnt work that great and also will help with the shadowing...but thats just my idea, no idea how that might work out or impact prices
"over copper resistance" - I see what you did there.
How about an alloy hollow elastic wire? electricity travels on the outside of a wire not in it, so you could have it compressed into the solar panel, the allow would need to stop any bleed off of copper into the rest of the panel.
Someday we’ll be surrounded by beautiful copper patina solar roofs!!
Or over red bricks, to blend in.
Cool information! I wonder though if copper prices would rise dramatically due to demand if/when it replaces silver in the solar panel industry.
I went down a quick rabbithole of screen printing compatible copper inks. Gotta say, there are way more options than just CuBert - it just needs manufacturers to embrace them. That being said, CuBert has the advantage with the plug'n'play chemistry. I hope it ends up being widely adopted.
Semiconductors can be utilized more efficiently by way of vapor deposition, it is a method the computer industry uses a lot of.
I think that you are the best TH-camr at explaining what a long hard push it is to get technology from the laboratory to the factory.
The IC industry uses Aluminum for conductors. They have been doing it a long time. It seems that this would be an alternative if there is a way to do large areas at a low cost. I think the method used for ICs is to put down a layer of aluminum, mask it and then etch away what you don't want. This may be expensive on a solar panel.
they need conductivity for efficiency, silver, copper, and gold in that order are the best single element conductors of both electricity and heat. aluminum, while conductive is pretty bad at it comparatively. aluminum though is very cheap compared to copper you just lose efficiency in all ways that matter. not great conducting electricity, not great at thermal transfer, again, compared to any of the top 3.
And they can do etching on any of the metals mentioned. Chip production is done with copper and photoresistive etching masks.
Aluminum is also used in many cables despite it's lower efficiency because when you are going to be suspending a massive cable the weight matters more.
@@SquintyGears Oooo that's interesting! Never thought about the implications of using different density metals for suspended cables
@@Joe-Dead a lot of cheap houses are wired with aluminum.
@@randysterbentz5599 You can reduce resistance by making cables thicker, and aluminum is so much lighter than copper, that even after making it thick enough to match a copper conductor, it still weighs less. That means longer spans between power poles.
Awww man, it gives me pride and enthusiasm to see the Aussie solar innovators plugging away. It makes me wish I'd focused on that (or anything) at uni after dabbling in model solar cars in high school.
Signed up for newsletter, if my information is sold incogni is gonna have words with you 🤣
Thanks for mentioning our Fraunhofer ISE spinoff PV2+ GmbH in your video!
I got a gallon jar full of pennies I'll donate... Well done Matt and team - thanks for sharing 🤠
Unfortunately, they are mostly copper coated zinc (anything after 1982). Plus, the government made it illegal to melt down pennies! Pennies before 1982 are worth more in copper than their face value. It is border line on the value for the zinc jobs.
😂 Thanks, Steve.
@@jackphillips3512 Jack... it was a joke. Way to crimp the mirth... 🙄
@@Cowboy_Steve
Thing is, you might have meant it as a joke, but the government banned it because people were actually doing that.
@@lordgarion514 Well you have done your civic duty for the day. Have a cookie. As for me, I have to go turn off my smelter...
I saw a show somewhere on youtube...The WW2 uranium separation machines needed a bunch of copper, but supply was all tied up in the war effort. So they borrowed silver from the treasury.
Silver's industrial uses and demand sure hasn't made the price skyrocket like all the precious metal investors had hoped. We keep wanting $50/ozt but it never comes!
Would you please, PLEASE consider using chapter marks on the progress bar. Most of my favourite channels have started doing this, and it's a great benefit to the viewer.
I can tell you fella that just using water heating panels are still 4 to 5 times as efficient and they do not ever burn out or get degraded. I an using two 4 x 12 feet panels which in turn heats my hot water usage. Been working for years. The only negative thing is when a large tree branch decided to spear the panel. A leaky mess. Replaced the glass window and resoldered the copper plate plus tubing and back to work it goes. Other than that is still works fine. Still waiting for solar cells to get higher efficacy Matt.
Good day too.
What makes anyone think that the price of copper won't rise with the demand?
Exactly
Witch is there more of?
Copper's a more abundant, already commercially available material.
While it may cause some price rise, the scale of solar demand is nothing compared to what already exists.
It’s wayyyyyyy more abundant in the earth, and able to be recycled from consumer items in mass now. It’s possible, but not likely anytime in the next 100yrs.
There’s a medical university in Arizona that has an exterior panels made of copper, because it reflects the sun and is mined nearby, and the cost was low compared to alternatives that may need to be serviced or replaced.
From the video "there is hundreds of times more copper than silver" but copper is rising in price, just not as rapidly as silver
Looking at doing a solar install myself pretty soon. Planning for a complete DIY system right now outside of maybe a couple final connections but that means my total cost of investment will be a lot less than others and I want to do micro inverters so I can spread the investment out a bit.
Thankfully I am in a small town where the limitations of DIY is a lot less than a lot of other area's. In the process of replacing my roof, rewiring, installing insulation, and a ton of other things. House was built around 1911 so there are a lot of little issues to deal with and sadly the previous owner was basically a slum lord. Already replaced all the water supply lines because it went from one material to another at random, was completely sub standard, and the water heater was plumbed backwards...
the price of silver is not rising...
Yes, the CME group has been manipulating the price since the run up in the early 2000s. The price should probably be about 100 / oz.
a simple right angle grid of fingers and busbars seems like not the most efficient space-filling curve possible. Surely something more fractal derived would be able to accomplish the same power spread with the same or less line length, though maybe the manufacturing of that is too hard still
White elephant tech. Nuclear needs to be back massively.
It would take to long to build nuclear plants necessary to tackle the energy needs for climate change and for cheaper energy in our current government structure.
@@KingHavocDraigo So... Your answer is doing the wrong thing? Genius.
@@BenoitMassicotte your answer is just being late to address the problem, I at least support solar power that can address the issues sooner than a Decade.....
how would you address the problem while nuclear power plants take decades to build and implement?
I also never said that we shouldn't build them
@@KingHavocDraigo I see, we should pollute even more to make solar panels that work intermittently by their very nature, are unscalable for large use, have poor life cycles. And use fossil fuel burning to cover when the sun is down... Like we do now, bringing the cost of energy AND pollution way, way up for everyone. Another much cleaner solution is hydro if possible. Thank you.
@@BenoitMassicotte how do people live life offgrid with solar panels then? how does eco flow make their solar generators?
ohh right people who strawman and gaslight like you don't think ahead, actually you don't think at all
@UndecidedwithMattFerrell
I'm sorry if this seems off-topic. Have you reviewed electric "sub-floor" radiant heating? I'm curious to use this in an upcoming home renovation.
The fatal flaw is they only work when and where it's sunny. They only really make sense in the desert. I live in Albuquerque and my panels only put out about 1/7 the power on our rare cloudy days. Fortunately, we have 300 sunny days per year here
Panels still make sense even near the notoriously cloudy Manchester (UK), speaking from personal experience. Mine will never make my home independent of the grid but they still produce more kWh annually than we use.
@@stevept1504 perhaps, but you need a massive array to do that. It’s a waste to put such a thing in Manchester rather than Morocco, where it could easily produce 5-7x the power. It’s doubtful you’ll ever break even on the energy required to produce them
@@stevept1504 my 5 kw array, with panels facing SE and SW rather than due south, routinely produces 26 kWh per day in the middle of winter, but only 3.5 kWh on our rare cloudy day, or only 1.5 if we have a little snow overnight. That suggests it’s 7x more effective somewhere that’s always sunny. How is yours performing?
@@blurglide You're not wrong, they'd certainly churn out more power if I lived in Morocco or Albuquerque, but their power is needed here in this moist, maritime-influenced, cloudy climate. 300 sunny days per year where you are, wow! I'm not going to quote Manchester's equivalent statistic. 🤣
@@stevept1504 put another way, a panel in Morroco would reduce 700% as much carbon emissions as a panel in Manchester. Best to put them there and use the fossil fuels in the UK, rather than the other way around as is happening now. Or, put the capital investment into nuclear. There’s a reason power is do absurdly expensive in Germany.
Wow! You make great videos, but in my opinion, this one was by far the best!
This copper option is intriguing, but let's not forget how important it is to find panels not assembled by slaves in China or with cobalt hand-mined by African children dropped by ropes into holes in the earth.
Nice try, but its the USA who has 20% of the world's prisoners from 5% of the human population. And the 13th Ammendment? Carved out an exception to slavery for prisoners.
Meanwhile, China is well off enough to *claim* they've abolished poverty. Whether thats true? Takes work to dig up after piercing their "Great Firewall" of state censorship.
The cobalt is used in Lithium ion batteries of a particular kind, not in solar panels. Don't know about the "slaves" since the propaganda is so thick between the empires. For solar power, lithium batteries will be replaced by cheaper tech.
@@tomspencer1364the slave claims are confirmed - Uighurs are assembling them in "re-education" centers.
Your cobalt point is fair criticism. Cobalt is indeed used in lithium batteries, not panels. But storing harvested solar energy at scale in anything other than a lithium battery is uncommon. Cobalt and solar panels go hand in hand.
@@socrazybmx Other technologies should be replacing Lithium before long except for the high end vehicles. There are probable other sources of cobalt or substitutions if someone wants to do the research. No doubt the Turkic liberation types are suffering, but they would not be happy until all the Chinese were gone. And the Chinese have been there for 1000 years or more like 2000. I don't expect objective truth from either side since that is not the way of Empires. Nor is righteousness much defense against the legions.
Maxeon has a back contact solar cell that has a solid copper foundation that is coated in nickel to prevent corrosion. These are the cells used in SunPower’s top end panels.
Costs more than these front contact panels for sure but huge benefits in efficiency (no shading from the “fingers”) and durability.
Have been deployed for decades in both residential and commercial projects.
Strange omission from an otherwise very comprehensive video.
I was just about to post something saying I thought Maxeon Technologies (formerly SunPower) panels use a copper backplate instead of silver on the face. It's kind of a strange omission from this video as SunPower, prior to the split of the company, was one of the top manufacturer's and installers of solar panels. I have no first hand knowledge of course, but supposedly their panels were more durable, had higher conversion rates, and lower degradation rates than any other solar panel out there and also happened to have the longest warranty as well. From what I heard they were the best constructed panels but their one negative aspect is that they were generally costlier than other panels. I never did the math, but it seemed like over a long time period (30-60 Years) they would wind up being cheaper (up front cost divided by total lifetime energy provided) than other panels that were cheaper up front, but wouldn't last as long and would have higher degradation rates.
¹1¹st;
Looking at building charging stations
If we're not getting phone service from Ma' Bell's plain ol' twisted service (POTS) anymore but we're now getting phone service from fiber or coaxial cable (VoIP), is the century's worth of copper wire still sitting on utility poles around the country?
Why not fuse the silicon to ALON with copper power leads. ALON granules compressed and heated with the silicon embedded within?
Thanks much for the update Matt.
I really enjoy your pun presentation style. Ive been watching your show every week since Joe Scott highlighted your channel a number of years ago. Thank you for all of the effort and dedication.
So are there any reasons why a thin layer of silver is not used first, i.e. before copper paste is applied, to prevent all the problems associated with copper? Has anyone tried that commercially and what are the costs involved?
@Undecided with Matt Ferrell
We need a Solar DataBase with Solar Panels Specs so to choose which Panels are Best for Us.
I really liked GTAT’s Merlin Metallization process which is ha hybrid, reducing silver by 80% while using copper to connect. Unfortunately they flew too close to the sun with a completely unrelated Apple sapphire growth deal and went bankrupt. A small startup bought the IP for the metallization, and seem to be trying to use it for niche applications where the increased flexibility/durability are helpful, but I still think it can/should be used much more broadly.
Hi Matt.. Yet another great video. I am really glad I found your channel... Also, I had a feeling you were from the Western NY area.. I am also from Rochester originally. Tampa Bay since 1994' though... Health pushed us to the Sunny part of the country!!
Well my install date is next week as I already ran with the resources provided through your EnergySage link. Hope whatever comes next is even better!
I'm more interested if any of these improvements make solar environmentally worth it. Currently, in places with lower solar gain, like New England, you never make back the environmental cost of producing. Will switching to copper change that?
Great content and research!! I’m surprised with all your videos... & still undecided..
Thanks
I'm not quite done with the video yet, but I haven't heard the idea of a film of silver on the silicon, to adhere the copper. I would expect that the techs know some trick to "glue" silver and copper together in an acceptable way.
The BEST channel about technolgy. Thank you very much, Matt Ferrell.
While it would be great to supplant copper for silver in this application, the argument starting at about 3:35 regarding recycling of silver ignores the other applications of silver. Recycling doesn’t have to be solely from older solar panels, it could be from other materials that contain or are composed of silver. Thus the concept that recycling won’t be viable for a few decades is questionable. The predominant mass of historically mined silver would have to be locked up in existing solar panels for that concept to be applicable.
I know of two BP solar arrays installed in 2007 and 2008, respectively, located in Southern California that are still working in 2023 with only minor loss of efficiency; the inverters died before the panels showed much efficiency loss.
Thanks Matt. Our solar panels need replacing and we will definitely be looking at the cost of replacing them with copper panels.
What about a 2 step process, with a thin silver coating followed by a much thicker copper coating. They bound together really well, so maybe you can use much less silver that way.
This is usually where nickel is used
@@SquintyGears you get a Like of acknowledgement 👍
photovoltaic/solar thermal technician 10yrs
goldsmith/master jeweler 55yrs + experience here.: i rarely used nickel to silver plate or gold plate copper. i would use nickel to thicken a piece to use to mold making purposes
Very clear and informative presentation. Thanks. Great channel.