We did a build where we were concerned wit possible future loads. We went to 1' on center for the whole area. We only have one doubled up it is next to the staircase...
Great idea, I don’t want my glasses to shake on the kitchen counter. Great explanation and I am always for a more strong construction even if it’s not needed, probably the east european thinking. 😉
When I was active, I was working on affordable houses, mostly 2x8 joists, 16" o.c., 12' span, and it would take a heavy person stomping to get any noticeable shaking of glasses on a table or counter. For me, the first place for extra-quality investments would be in insulation and moisture control.
I did the same anticipating a heavy dining room table and a piano. The tub is against the wall where the joists terminate so no worries there. Never thought to do it for the kitchen island though… might have to sneak a couple more joists in there. Good stuff Steve!!!
@@superspeeder - with the large format tiles, any movement in the floor can result in tiles cracking. You need that reinforcement even more. I just had some tile work done, not large format, by a pro and when I brought up the large format tiles, I was told the floor had to be sturdy for that reason.
I like the idea but the implementation can be improved at a similar cost. Suggest putting the bracing where people will walk and especially in the middle of the beams/room around the island. People walking near the walls does not deflect the beams much and the double beams under the islands won’t create as much additional stiffness as adding extra where the weight is/where people walk in the middle of the rooms. A person can weigh as much as the island. Support people not cabinets or tubs. Another option is to double up every other beam in the kitchen. OR put joists 12” on center instead of 16”. That’s what I’d do, 12” on center and do the entire living room. Need 33% more joists to go from 16 to 12”. The material that spans between the joists have a much smaller gap to fill and that deflection is also part of the equation and felt by people walking on the floor. Might add a solid 2x12 beam every 10 feet as a fire block.
From the framing, that room is 20 feet wide. A solid 2x12x20 is $45 at my local Home Depot. I suspect the engineered dowel beam is similar in price. It shouldn’t cost much more and would provide a fire break if one solid board is used every 10 feet.
The number of beams used every 16” plus the 10 extra beams added is about the same as if they were evenly spaced by 12”. Recommend spacing evenly as reducing the 16” span between joists to 12” only leaves a 10.5” gap that is much stiffer. I built a deck and tested both ways, 12” on-center makes a big difference over 16” OC.
Not just cost but assemble. You cannot just nail subflooring to steel trusses as well as hanging drywall. That said Open trusses are a terrrible risk in fires.
As a stair guy, all I can look at is that angle wall next to the stairs. I’ll never understand why anyone would close out the side of the stairs like that. It’s impossible to trim it out to look good, it’s more work to look worse. Open them up, drop the balusters on the treads, not a wall.
Not an issue , you nail 2x4s on the outsides, bottom side of the stringers. Then you have a gap for dry wall & trim. open stairs are far more work since you have to do balusters on both sides & trim on both sides which is a pain. But I suppose from your point of view, getting paid by the hour, more work, means more money in your pocket.
I'd think you would want to put the extra stiffness next island, instead of directly under island. That is where the live load is. So, double - single - double - single - double.
Are you concerned about vibration or static sagging? Dynamic forces are not from the island itself. And blocking between joists will dampen vibration, too. A second view into the video shows there is an interlocking of joists by a 2x4 right through the mid. Typical floor load bearing is calculated around 40 pound per sqft. An Island of about 30 sqft will not add 1200 pounds the additional capacity of 4 joists doubled unless you place a heavy granite plate on top which is stiff by itself. So my guess is you're on the safe side.
Replacing the doubled joist with LVL eliminates the advantage of the open web design. Now anything running perpendicular to the LVL has to be dropped below or run on the other side of the bearing wall.
I suddenly find myself very interested in fireproof building. I read that 1) plastic window frames melt and allow ember intrusion, 2) soffit vents allow ember entry, 3) asphalt shingles are flammable, and 3) radiant heat ignites drapes through closed windows. So how can houses be designed to circumvent these problems? How to design so that roof venting is unnecessary? These answers might be a real service to society.
There are many videos that address your concern. Unvented roofs and soffit, metal roofing, and cover your windows with fiber cement board during a wild fire. You can always get fire-rated windows but it cost a fair bit more. Most importantly, a defensible perimeter. Do not build in areas prone to wildfire is my number one recommendation.
@@phamlam3720 I've seen some unvented roof videos. They left me with fire related questions. I see what looks like flammable underlayment - or flammable insulation - under metal roofs (house or car next door might be 1000º+). Metal conducts. Seems like that might be the house weak link. Or whether an unvented attic might make sense for some reason specifically related to fire preparedness? It just seems that the videos I've seen haven't been focused so much on fire, but on moisture. Traditional "asphalt shingle" level fire resistance isn't what I'm interested in.
@@tonyduarte9503 No would structure is going to be "fire proof". Ideally you would 'fire proof it, by removing any potential fuel sources near the building. Remove all trees & shrubs & keep the grass very short. For internal fire, never use Open trusses since they allow fire to spread fast & trusses exposed to flame fail (collapse) in about 1 minute. Home fire mitgation: Metal roof or stone roof (Slate) , Hardie board (cement siding) or brick\stone use rockwool exterior insulation instead of foam. You can also add a sprinkler system to the roof which would be manually turned on in the case of a fire, but if the fire is hot & close enough, its not going to safe the building. The more you do to mitigate the risks, the higher the building costs. "Metal conducts" but does burn. Metal protects against hot embers catching the roof on fire. However, a problem is gutters filled with leaves that will catch fire if they are dry in the gutters. Something like k-guard can reduce that problem.
Nothing wrong with overbuilding. In the old days they did not have computers to finite the plans, so overbuilding was common and strong. I am retired FDNY and Old tenements were strong as hell. Floor beams were real 2x12 12"OC, as were roof rafters. Wall studs were real 2x4. Collapses happened but only after a long duration fire. Today most builds are cheap and poor.
@@willbass2869 I'm sure they won't. Just like they won't put sprinklers into most new construction. What that means is the roofs are weak and fire will spread quickly destroying the integrity. FFs need to stay off of them. They just had another FF in Houston fall into the attic and be severly burned as deck fell apart under him. Our Insurance industry needs to kick ass to rectify this or FDs will abandon interior firefighting causing even more total losses
Trusses are a bad idea because of issues with fire. Trusses fail very, very quickly in a Fire as the allow fire to spread fast. If you must use trusses than add a Plywood, OSB to each truss for fire blocking or Apply Spray Fire retardant to all of them. Sooner or later naked trusses will get banned in the US because of fire risks.
Residential fire risks have been falling like a rock for the past 50 years in the US. You're living in the past. Bad advice. Open web trusses are great
@@willbass2869 Your gravely mistaken. All you need to do is turn on the News about the fires in California. If fire risks have "fallen" for the past 50 years, why are insurance companies dropping coverage for residential homes because of fire risks? Second many fire departments across the US have been very critical of trusses as many firefighters had died because of truss collapses. Most departments are changing the way the handle home fires because of the risks (no longer sending crews inside home to put out fires & focus on containment). You seem like a person that makes up stuff rather than research the topic before commenting.
@guytech7310 dude don't throw out some localized situation made worse by political misrule. The rest of us in "normal America" have seen fire death/injury plummet due to better construction codes (written into law at behest of insurance industry), and improved appliances. Crawl back to your butt hurt lounge
@@guytech7310 From NFPA Oct 2023 "The 2023 overall estimate for total fire incidents was 54 percent lower than in 1980. However, property loss, adjusted for inflation, was three percent higher in 2023 than in 1980. The 2023 estimate of total fire deaths was 44 percent lower than in 1980, home fire deaths were 44 percent lower, deaths in one- or two-family home fires were 40 percent lower, and apartment fire deaths were 61 percent lower." Read those numbers
Good plan! I've seen a few homes that definitely had a bounce, everywhere!?! Thanks for the video!
We did a build where we were concerned wit possible future loads. We went to 1' on center for the whole area. We only have one doubled up it is next to the staircase...
Great idea, I don’t want my glasses to shake on the kitchen counter. Great explanation and I am always for a more strong construction even if it’s not needed, probably the east european thinking. 😉
When I was active, I was working on affordable houses, mostly 2x8 joists, 16" o.c., 12' span, and it would take a heavy person stomping to get any noticeable shaking of glasses on a table or counter. For me, the first place for extra-quality investments would be in insulation and moisture control.
@ what moisture control do you have on your mind, I am curious to educate myself, thank you sir.
I did the same anticipating a heavy dining room table and a piano. The tub is against the wall where the joists terminate so no worries there.
Never thought to do it for the kitchen island though… might have to sneak a couple more joists in there.
Good stuff Steve!!!
Even floor tile is heavy, so if tile is part of the design it makes sense to beef things up.
@ yes, we are 24” OC but used 1-1/8” Advantech subfloor anticipating large tile.
@@superspeeder - with the large format tiles, any movement in the floor can result in tiles cracking. You need that reinforcement even more.
I just had some tile work done, not large format, by a pro and when I brought up the large format tiles, I was told the floor had to be sturdy for that reason.
I like the idea but the implementation can be improved at a similar cost. Suggest putting the bracing where people will walk and especially in the middle of the beams/room around the island. People walking near the walls does not deflect the beams much and the double beams under the islands won’t create as much additional stiffness as adding extra where the weight is/where people walk in the middle of the rooms. A person can weigh as much as the island. Support people not cabinets or tubs.
Another option is to double up every other beam in the kitchen. OR put joists 12” on center instead of 16”. That’s what I’d do, 12” on center and do the entire living room. Need 33% more joists to go from 16 to 12”. The material that spans between the joists have a much smaller gap to fill and that deflection is also part of the equation and felt by people walking on the floor. Might add a solid 2x12 beam every 10 feet as a fire block.
2×12 every 10 feet. Lol. OK Mr Moneybags
From the framing, that room is 20 feet wide. A solid 2x12x20 is $45 at my local Home Depot. I suspect the engineered dowel beam is similar in price. It shouldn’t cost much more and would provide a fire break if one solid board is used every 10 feet.
The number of beams used every 16” plus the 10 extra beams added is about the same as if they were evenly spaced by 12”. Recommend spacing evenly as reducing the 16” span between joists to 12” only leaves a 10.5” gap that is much stiffer. I built a deck and tested both ways, 12” on-center makes a big difference over 16” OC.
Steven, could you do an episode on Arch fees? What do you charge for a set of plans? Is it a fixed fee? Is it percentage of construction?
I sure wish they had open web joists when I built a cabin in 1990. I used TJI but there were drawbacks (plumbing, wiring) I could have avoided.
Nice move for not a huge cost factor. Wouldn’t the LVL’s in that location block the mechanical path?
TriForce are stocked in 2’ increments and can be trimmed up to 24”, so any length can be achieved.
Steve - does it ever make sense to use steel trusses. How much more expensive would it be with steel trusses?
Not just cost but assemble. You cannot just nail subflooring to steel trusses as well as hanging drywall. That said Open trusses are a terrrible risk in fires.
That lumber looks like the stuff you get from Lowes or Home Depot considering all those knots.
As a stair guy, all I can look at is that angle wall next to the stairs. I’ll never understand why anyone would close out the side of the stairs like that. It’s impossible to trim it out to look good, it’s more work to look worse. Open them up, drop the balusters on the treads, not a wall.
Not an issue , you nail 2x4s on the outsides, bottom side of the stringers. Then you have a gap for dry wall & trim. open stairs are far more work since you have to do balusters on both sides & trim on both sides which is a pain. But I suppose from your point of view, getting paid by the hour, more work, means more money in your pocket.
Admitedly a potentially idiotic question, but does traverse blocking do anything to limit walking induced vibration?
Yes, it spread the load from one to another and adds stiffness
Do I see house wrap over zip?
I'd think you would want to put the extra stiffness next island, instead of directly under island. That is where the live load is. So, double - single - double - single - double.
Are you concerned about vibration or static sagging? Dynamic forces are not from the island itself. And blocking between joists will dampen vibration, too. A second view into the video shows there is an interlocking of joists by a 2x4 right through the mid.
Typical floor load bearing is calculated around 40 pound per sqft. An Island of about 30 sqft will not add 1200 pounds the additional capacity of 4 joists doubled unless you place a heavy granite plate on top which is stiff by itself. So my guess is you're on the safe side.
The Tri-Force is required to get the Master Sword.
We’re a long way from posts in basements. The house I’m in has 9 brick columns helping support.
Replacing the doubled joist with LVL eliminates the advantage of the open web design. Now anything running perpendicular to the LVL has to be dropped below or run on the other side of the bearing wall.
Why a double joist instead of bridging (blocking) between the joists?
Will the double joists not help against creep 50 years down the line? Or have they no effect on preventing creep with age?
What do you mean by creep?
@@kc9scott Deflection that happens over time (decades) due to high loads within spec.
50 years? Quite honestly who cares?
Are you one of those unicorn "build a house to last 100 years" guys?
Would an additional 2x member not have the same effect? Is the cost increase not significant enough to use a 2x lumber?
Floor trusses are not very expensive these were probably less than 125$ each.
What's yhe span? I heard 14" floor trusses @ 16"oc. Didn't catch the span.
Warmboard and air ducts? Is it both radiant and forced air?
Ducts would be for AC (cooling) & perhaps ventilation (ERV)
I suddenly find myself very interested in fireproof building. I read that 1) plastic window frames melt and allow ember intrusion, 2) soffit vents allow ember entry, 3) asphalt shingles are flammable, and 3) radiant heat ignites drapes through closed windows. So how can houses be designed to circumvent these problems? How to design so that roof venting is unnecessary? These answers might be a real service to society.
There are many videos that address your concern.
Unvented roofs and soffit, metal roofing, and cover your windows with fiber cement board during a wild fire. You can always get fire-rated windows but it cost a fair bit more.
Most importantly, a defensible perimeter.
Do not build in areas prone to wildfire is my number one recommendation.
@@phamlam3720 I've seen some unvented roof videos. They left me with fire related questions. I see what looks like flammable underlayment - or flammable insulation - under metal roofs (house or car next door might be 1000º+). Metal conducts. Seems like that might be the house weak link. Or whether an unvented attic might make sense for some reason specifically related to fire preparedness? It just seems that the videos I've seen haven't been focused so much on fire, but on moisture. Traditional "asphalt shingle" level fire resistance isn't what I'm interested in.
Look to Australia - they have very strict codes for fire-prone areas. US is far behind.
@@tonyduarte9503 No would structure is going to be "fire proof". Ideally you would 'fire proof it, by removing any potential fuel sources near the building. Remove all trees & shrubs & keep the grass very short. For internal fire, never use Open trusses since they allow fire to spread fast & trusses exposed to flame fail (collapse) in about 1 minute.
Home fire mitgation: Metal roof or stone roof (Slate) , Hardie board (cement siding) or brick\stone use rockwool exterior insulation instead of foam. You can also add a sprinkler system to the roof which would be manually turned on in the case of a fire, but if the fire is hot & close enough, its not going to safe the building. The more you do to mitigate the risks, the higher the building costs.
"Metal conducts" but does burn. Metal protects against hot embers catching the roof on fire. However, a problem is gutters filled with leaves that will catch fire if they are dry in the gutters. Something like k-guard can reduce that problem.
Suburbia is now a fire prone area. Number one thing would be to get rid of asphalt tile roofing, it's literally oil
👍📐
A smart person would have ran steel beams with a chase framed in on each end for the mechanical.
Because Doublemint Gum
Nothing wrong with overbuilding.
In the old days they did not have computers to finite the plans, so overbuilding was common and strong. I am retired FDNY and Old tenements were strong as hell. Floor beams were real 2x12 12"OC, as were roof rafters. Wall studs were real 2x4. Collapses happened but only after a long duration fire. Today most builds are cheap and poor.
NO ONE is going to build apartments with 2×12, 12" OC.
That's crazy. It's 2025
@@willbass2869 I'm sure they won't. Just like they won't put sprinklers into most new construction. What that means is the roofs are weak and fire will spread quickly destroying the integrity. FFs need to stay off of them. They just had another FF in Houston fall into the attic and be severly burned as deck fell apart under him. Our Insurance industry needs to kick ass to rectify this or FDs will abandon interior firefighting causing even more total losses
Floor truse, not joist.
Trusses are a bad idea because of issues with fire. Trusses fail very, very quickly in a Fire as the allow fire to spread fast. If you must use trusses than add a Plywood, OSB to each truss for fire blocking or Apply Spray Fire retardant to all of them. Sooner or later naked trusses will get banned in the US because of fire risks.
Residential fire risks have been falling like a rock for the past 50 years in the US. You're living in the past. Bad advice.
Open web trusses are great
@@willbass2869 Your gravely mistaken. All you need to do is turn on the News about the fires in California. If fire risks have "fallen" for the past 50 years, why are insurance companies dropping coverage for residential homes because of fire risks?
Second many fire departments across the US have been very critical of trusses as many firefighters had died because of truss collapses. Most departments are changing the way the handle home fires because of the risks (no longer sending crews inside home to put out fires & focus on containment).
You seem like a person that makes up stuff rather than research the topic before commenting.
@guytech7310 dude don't throw out some localized situation made worse by political misrule.
The rest of us in "normal America" have seen fire death/injury plummet due to better construction codes (written into law at behest of insurance industry), and improved appliances.
Crawl back to your butt hurt lounge
@@guytech7310 From NFPA Oct 2023
"The 2023 overall estimate for total fire incidents was 54 percent lower than in 1980. However, property loss, adjusted for inflation, was three percent higher in 2023 than in 1980.
The 2023 estimate of total fire deaths was 44 percent lower than in 1980, home fire deaths were 44 percent lower, deaths in one- or two-family home fires were 40 percent lower, and apartment fire deaths were 61 percent lower."
Read those numbers
Weaken the i-joice by eliminating the middle, then double them. Hmm