Protean Electric Wheel Motor Technology | Review with Sandy & Tom
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- Sandy and Tom get up to speed on what's new with Protean Electric wheel motor technology.
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Outro:
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#Protean #EV #wheelmotor
Your new guy is wonderfully articulate. Keep him...
I love these conversion kits to fill more of the demand, especially for someone who has a car they already like a good deal hopefully it comes in an attractive price range.
This is the setup Australia needs on a SUV/UTE/Duel cabs. Coupled with a diesel range extender series hybrid. We need cars that can still do 2000km when we need with quick remote fill ups then use electric pottering around the city.
Hub motors and standard battery packs are an easy and fast way to convert ICE vehicles tto BEV. Not the most efficient. But quick and easy to install.
correct.
Not the most efficient? All World Solar Challenge racers feature hub motors for their superior efficiency. BTW the Aptera has hub motors, my motorcycle has a hub motor and the first Porsche (Lohner-Porsche) was a hybrid featuring hub motors.
@@moestrei I would say the Tesla Plaid motors are the most efficient motors you can get. Hub motors are easy to install in selfmade motorcycles. Like the Aptera.
@@vic321344 The Plaid motor requires liquid cooling to remove all those heat losses. Cannot be that efficient energy wise. Even space/weight vs performance not that great looking at the Lucid drive train.
@@moestrei Shure you have to cool. To get efficient. Hot motors are not efficient. And in a car you always need two of the hub motors. That adds to weight.
In scenarios where you just need several kW power output, hub motors are really efficient and easy to regulate.
High unsprung weight? Gyroscopic effect makes it hard to turn wheels?
You CAN overcome the the effort with assistance - but you will have zero road feel IMHO.
Only if the weight of motors is rotating. If most of the weight is fixed then it's not going to be much more gyro effect that the wheel would have anyway
@@TomasEggers Around half of the weight of the motor is rotating. It is the rotor with the ring of magnets.
@@TomasEggers I would think about half of it would be. External rotor (steel / magnets) with internal stator design (coils). 18kg per wheel?
Ya but where do I buy them. Thats the question
I was literally minutes ago looking for what Sandy thought of hub motors when I saw a poster of Protean in the background of their Tesla model S plaid suspension video. This is very good timing Sandy!
Nobdy asked me, but here goes:
Smaller motors are less efficient vs. larger motors.
Implementing four smaller motors into wheels has a greater net efficiency loss compared to one larger motor + gear reduction losses.
Remember that we're operating on last century battery tech which is already not that efficient.
Im also surprised that the controls are independent per wheel so voltage drops across the power lines are... hmm might be debatable here, but my gut says this decision is based on scalability of the product. Mass production of the hub motors are cheaper because all of them are the same because your template (the car) will vary widely across the automakers.
Just my opinion and sad to say;
Protean's solution is a technology to curb the transition to EVs for legacy automakers.
@T Legend still, interesting to see this technology worked on and improved. May the best solutions rise to the top and win.
This video popped up because youtube is reading your thoughts.
Isn’t the likelihood of something unfortunate cutting these plastic cable housings near the wheel, not worth all of the work to get them there in the first place?
Also. Don’t these things catch fire because all they have is air cooling? Ie. lordstown?
Also. Isn’t adding weight to the wheels. Literally the worst thing you can do for vehicle dynamics and Preformance?
@@derpamine Could the large diameters of these rotors help with efficiency? If so, does that restrict them from using smaller diameter rims with higher aspect tires to improve ride & economy?
Sandy & Associates, please ask this question:
Why wasn't a tapered bearing used instead of that custom design brake solution?
Shouldn't two tapered bearings pointing towards each other along the axis of rotation reduce all reflected inertial loads (radial forces) onto the rim?
This is an issue because the air gap between rotor and stator should be kept consistent, otherwise BEMF will be widely variable on the drive.
I mean, bearing OD attached to an adapter which houses the motor rotor and bearing ID should sleeve a shaft which connects to the ID of the wound stator-- because this is obviously an out runner motor.
Kudos to Protean for trying to solve the bigger picture problem, but this sounds like the right answer to the wrong question.
The the employee managing this youtube channel, you the real MVP.
@T Legend As you’re obviously a knowledgeable engineer, I wonder if you can answer this: Could inboard brakes be used to offset the unsprung weight of the in wheel motors insofar as the torque forces on the brake shafts would be reduced by regenerative braking?
Also (from below): Could the large diameters of these rotors help with efficiency? If so, does that restrict them from using smaller diameter rims with higher aspect tires to improve ride & economy?
@@Crunch_dGH Yes, but you need a driven axle from the wheel back to the chassis. That would add complexity and weight.
The brake has essentially nothing to do with the bearing types. The "inside out" brake disk mounting is done to allow the disk to be attached to the rotor/hub; it also saves space and helps to maximize effective disk diameter to minimize required caliper size.
@@Crunch_dGH Thanks for the validation, but I wasn't trying to start/win some keyboard quarter backing contest online. Was just genuinely curious/trying to break down their business strategy and how they can lean/pokeyoke components to achieve a certain function of a system at scale and generate a profit.
For your 1st question; Not sure I fully understand your q, but if I'm interpreting that correctly, my answer would be that's an alternative question which leads to a different answer. My comment was to say exactly just that, Protean asked the wrong question, but answered it correctly. Using tapered bearings will eliminate majority of the radial forces from the tire reflected onto the rim. It's been in use since the Toyota FJ series, I think 1980s, to traverse over rocky terrain because those tires take a beating endlessly.
2nd Q:
part1- What I meant here is a volumetric comparison and power in vs. power out. If you take 100watts and pass it through a 100cm3 motor vs. passing it through a 1000cm3, the 1kcm3 will be more efficient-- granted that all other aspects are scaled proportionally.
part2- So with reference to part1, generally larger is more efficient, but if I were on their team, I'd be more concerned about the balancing act of finding the right wheel size to convert electrical power to mechanical power vs. aerodynamic drag. At some point, economic factors come into play for tire size and aero drag would cancel out the eff. gain of the larger motor. I know this because Protean actually tried recruiting me some 4-5 years ago. I analyzed their product and ultimately decided that I didn't want to chase the wrong question. On the flip side, I could be completely wrong. :)
Unsprung weight and durability seem to be the biggest issues with this design, but I like the idea. More room in the chassis for other stuff (like batteries), no shafts or CV joints or whatever. Sounds amazing for off-roading with the potential ground clearance possibilities. Not sure how much I'd like it for road comfort though.
Motors on wheels will need 2 motor per axle on the top of the suspension wear and tear for way more unsprung mass .. and can’t eliminate the water and other corrosion issues ..so I say why even waste effort in that kind of dead on arrival tech
Unsprung weight will always be a factor , but it is now. So... nothing new.
So long as they do full epoxy potting durability should be top notch, obviously you will not be repairing any parts inside that assembly afterward.
Unsprung weight is very critical to dynamic driving or rough roads, but for city folks it really will not make a difference (but an obvious use case limitation).
Getting high voltage DC down to the wheel sounds like a fantastic idea. Not a good way however
Inboard motors can prioritise performance over weight. Ditto inboard brakes. However EVs do most of the braking via the motors so friction brake can be considerably smaller.
It must have taken Sandy extraordinary effort to resist the temptation to say something nasty about the doubled number of bolts for the brake disks. 😃
Can you and tom talk about the relationship with Protean Electric? Thanks for the details we understand you do a lot of work and excited to learn more from a consumer perspective this is great. Thank you, Protean for allowing us to see this prototype. Welcome Tom!
In wheel motors are the future for all Non performance EVs. It is the most efficient as the power is applied where the rotation starts and delivered directly to the road. No transfer of rotation losses anywhere. Compare this to a fan with a transmission rod, vs just the fan itself, you can see which one would be more efficient. Lot of difficulties with road damage, increased unsprung weight, but in the end more efficient = more miles.
Unsprung weight is actually lower
oh boy!! wheel motor & mechanical power systems, in the automotive industry. has grown so much!! 15yrs ago, this was just a quiet stroll in the park!! Texas Instruments has developed a ''new'' control board, for the automotive industry!! it's so great 2 see quality innovation! good luck with it Mr. Munro!!
+1... Where does Munro & Associates find this exemplary engineering talent? This guy Tom Prucha, Director of Electrification is yet another find. Great Protean Electric review gentleman.. !!
I am impressed with Sandy and Tom's excellent engineering design findings of the Protean.
I would think in wheel hub motors would be perfect for the Mercedes G-wagon. Better clearance, precise control, seems ideal vs portal axles.
You always get the problem of large unsprung mass. Exactly the thing you do not want on bad roads.
NOPE, Mercedes should use the Tesla QUAD Drivetrain, it's SUPERIOR to anything, PROTEAN can do. look as what a FLOP Lordstown is with Endurance pickup, and the LIGHT-YEAR one, both are FLOPS.
@@vic321344 Yup, that could be a "massive" problem. Front drive is a deal breaker for me.
@@vic321344 and yet moast offroad cars use live axels that are heavier that independ suspension whit inboard brakes. and also portal axels that Aussie2u talked are even heavier than normal live axel.
Portal axles with solve the ground clearance issue on the g wagen
THANKS4GIVING. That suspension has to be sluggish with all that weight. And that break Design--won’t that put huge stresses on the bearings.
YES, this is why ENDURANCE, LIGHT-YEAR one, and APTERA will be a FLOP.
You can clearly see that the suspension isn't stock. Manual double adjustable dampers
No, the large-diameter brake disks attached to the hub (which is the motor rotor) around the outer edge makes no difference to the bearings.
Glad you look at all options in EV conversions, I Like the Protean motors
DEAD in the water.
in a short time, Tesla will wipe out EV crate motors, HUB motor vehicle and EV conversion.
There will be no need, once Tesla starts selling it's $24k Model 3 and Model Y for $35k. and Tesla can turn them all into Robotaxi, and charge less than $1 ride.
@@markplott4820 Problem is Tesla will not.
2 points to Sandy for saying "Kludge" :)
FINALLY SANDY IS REVIEWING THE PROTEAN!!! YEAH!
Great tech - I would like to know more about how Protean addressed the thermal management of the wheel motors.
That's the first company I've seen besides Aptera using in-wheel motors. Although Aptera doesn't have the inverters in the wheels. Seems like a good idea to save space inside the car and also reduce all the mechanical parts like the axles, CV joints and reduction gears.
FALSE, LIGHT-YEAR, Lordstown, are also using HUB Motors.
also, APTERA motors is a FRAUD.
they can't even get OFFICIAL EPA range or NHTSA certificate.
@@markplott4820 Wrong. EPA range is 1000 miles for their 100kWh version.
@@seasong7655 - FALSE, there is no EPA Moroni sticker for APTERA and it's NOT even a ROAD legal vehicle even.
@@markplott4820 It's not road legal YET. Because it will be sold at the end of 2022 in the US, and later on around the world. You clearly have not researched Aptera sufficiently.
@@seasong7655 At the moment Aptera does not even have a roadworthy production prototype.
I know i've had both hub and mid drive motors in bicycles, and the mid drives are superior in pretty much every way. Maybe that has changed though..its been a few years--i'm still using my mid drive.
E motorcycle and e Bike need shaft drive w/ electric motor, more reliable than hub motor and chain drive.
I have a hubbed and you are 100% correct.
It's much worse in a car than a bike. But still it's not the best option in a bike either.
A hub motor on a bicycle puts no strain on the drivetrain, you don't need to pedal if you just want to throttle, and they can be really powerful.Ideal for cargo bikes. If you're all terraining it, or just like too much bike, you can have all wheel drive. If they're not geared they can have regenerative braking. They are less expensive and easily repaired or replaced. No problem with them.
@@anxiousappliance - WRONG a e-Bike with Shaft Drive is better and you can place LARGER motor & batter in the FRAME.
HUB motors are FAKE NEWS and will be a FLOP compared to Conventional EV motors.
HUB will add too much WEIGHT and LITTLE benefit. the Higher Weight will be a DRAIN on batteries. and what happens when a ROCK gets stuck in the Motor, you have a DEAD bike. HUB motors will also make the e-Bike UNAFFORADABLE.
the GOAL should be Granting Access to AFFORDABLE MOBILITY, which HUB motors cant do.
The big problem with wheel motors is the unsprung weight. This also explains why the springs did not need to change as the motor and the inverters are not in the weight that the springs need to hold up as they are in the wheel and not on the body of the car.
I am sad that Sandy did not question that part - it is clear that a lot of weight was moved into the wheels.
It would be intersting to learn how much of weight the inverters add to each wheel, also as a percentage of the wheel weight without the inverter.
Tesla inverter intergration is the BEST and elegant solution. and it's Forward & Backwards compatible with ALL 4 models.
@@markplott4820 No doubt Tesla's solutions, not only the inverter, are top-notch and hard to beat.
Nonetheless I'd like to know more about the solution presented in this video.
@@charangohabsburg1 - ok, but it's Already OUTDATED technology.
and the PROTEAN inverter are not Forward & Backwards compatible with older HUB motors.
it means it Custom for each size.
@@charangohabsburg1 Don't feed the Tesla fanboy troll!
@@charlestoast4051 Sure, thanks for the heads-up!
I am noticing now that he clutters comments all over, he obviously is trolling, maybe without being aware of it. He's a believer, blind to research and ongoing innovation, doing no favor to Tesla at all.
I would be interested in the weight of each motor/wheel combination and to know how this affects handling and ride quality. For a long time it has been a mantra to reduce unsprung loads at the wheels to improve road holding.
Well, the "standard" American car used to have a heavy "solid" rear axle. Lot's of unsprung weight. But for the vast majority of folks, it worked out quite well. The Solid Axle worked better than the first attempts of independent rear suspension.
Unsprung weight can be a issue, however by having the wheel motors the cars springs don’t have to be altered to carry that weight, as the battery weight would seem to be close enough to the weight so the engine, transmission and drive line
What is the efficiency of the motor over its RPM? A deep dive into this where motor design as opposed to standard motor w/ gear reduction would be very interesting.
Electric motors like high RPM. Tesla's are 12,000 to 15,000 RPM or so.
Having a 1:1 ratio is the worst thing you could do even though electric motors do produce substantial torque at lowRPM.
I bet it's 0 to 60 is going to be something like 20 sec!
A bucket load them bad design decisions here.
This is just really a toy that some guys decided to fiddle around with.
@@henryD9363 There are hub motors with planetary gears. The Aptera 3 wheeler (hub, non geared) seems to have no performance issues.
OMG thank you so much for covering protean electric one of the founder was Bob Purcell who was the father of the GM EV1.
I don't know if this Protean system is the right answer, but hub motor design will be what takes EV's and their adoption to the next level. And if done correctly will help reduce the overall cost.
HUB motors were needed when cars went to Hybrid, FC and EREV.
it would have freed up space for a FRUNK. it's disappointing to see PROTEAN unable to have useable FRUNK in their design. HUB motors are OUTDATED technology today. the TESLA RWD is the GOLD standard.
@@markplott4820 The amount of space a hub motor would save on an EV would allow more room for a bigger battery, which means more range and power. Usually because of the larger diameter a hub motor has, it means more torque produce with less electricity. Which again means more range and more power. Tesla design at the moment is king, because corporations just are investing the money in R&D needed for advancements like Tesla is. Aptera uses hub motors, has the same speed performance as a tesla but because of its efficiency's can go up to 1000 miles on a charge. I love Tesla and they are king right now, but that doesn't mean they are perfect and untouchable, there is always a better way and always room for improvement.
How would this help with adoption? I see more complexity in every part of this.
@@custommotor - agree, it does not help with the consumer. they already sell $10k electric ⚡ cars in the USA, KANDI.
The use of BEV conversion kits, or even LPG systems, could extend the longevity of many ICE cars or even obsolete BEV cars, that otherwise would be scrapped.
FALSE, it's far Cheaper to buy a NEW BEV that's using a SUPERIOR skateboard 🛹 Drivetrain. and it's MORE efficient, can be made with LOWER coefficient Drag, and come with a FRUNK.
Longevity and durability is the reason Toyota isn't worried about about EVs
@@John-Nada - TOYOTA will be BANKRUPT in 2023, when TESLA starts DELIVERING millions of Model Y in 2023.
how many bZ4x can Toyota produce & sell EACH year ?
@@John-Nada there is a reason why Toyota was so reluctant to replace Nickel-Metal Hydride batteries thorough Lithium-Ion batteries.
@@markplott4820 and what's "Eco friendly" and sustainable about replacing a BEV once it gets obsolete? Many brag about their BEVs, but few are the ones keeping them through many years.
THANKS SANDY AND TOM …FOR SHARING THIS AND 🤔 I AM WONDERING IF WITH NEW BATTERY TECHNOLOGY…
IF THIS COULD BE USED TO RETRO FIT CLASSIC CARS FOR THE FUTURE 🤷♂️ 😍😍😍
NOPE, too small space for ANY current battery design.
Tesla 4680 structural battery is the PLATINUM standard battery today, because it's a skateboard 🛹 pack and does NOT use heavy Modules or pack.
it's also the ONLY Leading ZERO maintenance battery pack on the Market.
There is an active, albeit small, group that mods ICE cars into electric. You'll never get anything like the benefits of car designed to be BEV from the ground up but for those who love a specific make or model it gives them the chance to go green.
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom I AGREE…AND THOSE ARE THE ONES I AM REFERRING TO AND I AM SURE THERE WILL BE MUCH MORE PROGRESS IN THE FUTURE 🤗 making it possible and feasible 😍😍😍
Calling it now, this is DOA. As is Aptera. I just dont see how those high voltage lines wont get completely obliterated by all the vibrations. Plus all the unsprung weight. Itll be nice in a straight line on an atomically flat surface though.
Ah the good old wheel motor, hyped for years but never actually got to production due to the large number of significant deficits and the realtively small number of advantages!
The good things:
1) you can fit them in the middle of the wheel, so make more space in the body
The bad things
1) high unsprung mass (poor ride and expensive dampers to deal with that mass)
2) difficult to make use of a large gear reduction ratio so as to downsize the electro-magnetics meaning a large, heavy, expensive motor
3) you obviously need at least two per vehicle (more cost / complexity)
4) Difficult to make a truly durable motor and inverter when they are directly subject to road forces. If you do, it'll be more expensive than a sprung motor/inverter
5) Makes it hard to use optimum suspension kinematics / geometry because the motor is where the ends of the suspension links want to be
6) Puts HV DC components in a vunerable position, and you have to route a very flexible and vunerable HV DC cable out to the motor
7) Cooling the motor out in the wheel isn't easy, pipes have to be run, and they must be very flexible and durable
8) You need some clever chassis electronics to control two motors across an axle, and the failure modes are non trivial (one motor sheds a magnet and locks up, car spears off into scenery or oncomming truck....)
9) Today, you still need to package a mechanical friction brake to pass type approval (this may change, but todays it's a big issue)
10) A small gap between the inside of the rim and the outside of the motor assy is a real world problem, where stones and road debris get caught in the gap. At best, just causing customer complaints due to the squeeling noise, at worst, machining right through the wheel leading to a failure
It's pretty easy to see why in a typical passenger car application the small benefit is massively outweighed by the negative aspects and hence why no OE is using them.......
Some cars have Inboard brakes, outside the wheels, which would be a better solution IMO.
This helps for reducing the unsprung weight of the wheel hubs.
Also braking torque is applied directly to the chassis, rather than being transferred to it through the suspension arms.
I think you've named pretty much every reason why nobody does it probably nobody else ever will. This will probably be the example of what can go wrong and will go wrong that will settle a lot of design arguments.
I wasn't thinking of the RPM problem. Tesla motors spin 12, 000 to 16,000 RPM. Not very good for in a wheel. But the reduction gearbox solves that.
Of course you can make the diameter of the in-wheel rotor larger. But not that larger. Egadd.
@@henryD9363 I was thinking CV joints aren't that bad of a solution, except for the need to replace boots periodically.
All good points and very difficult to solve. Until we learn to build better density magnetic lenses or come up with high temperature superconductors it’s difficult to justify this type of engineering for mainstream passenger vehicles.
Question on how the air gap is maintained in the hub motors. How is the air gap maintained under heavy lateral loads? Has the wheel bearing been beefed up to reduce gap distortion. Next question is how is the air gap protected against the environment? Unlike conventional motors the air gap on hub motors is less protected and much closer to the ground. How is dust and water kept out of the air gap? Are seals used for this purpose, and if so is seal replacement a maintenance requirement?
what about wire ware on these high voltage power lines that go to the motors (flexing due to vertical movement of the suspension and horizontal movement of the front wheels on top)
noob question: since the motors are in the wheels, their weigth doesn't count when comparing before and after, right? I guess what matters for tuning suspensions is the weight at the axels, while the motors affect the weight at the tires (which I suspect increased after the swap)?
I agree. The wheel motors add to the total weight of the car of course but not for the suspension as far as carrying the weight goes. The heavier wheels would require heavier damping. Ride improvement is needed because the ratio between moving parts (wheels) and non moving parts (the car) is different because of the heavier wheels.
NICE DESIGN. RETIRED 77, USAF VFW.
Well I hope the new guy either gets less nervous on camera and speaks louder or his mic is turned up in the future. I can hear Sandy just fine as always but home boy is super quit. lol
Seems like a legit dude though. LOVE SEEING MUNRO GROW !!!!!
I had to look up some of the terminology yall used, and I learned some things. Great video!
I would love to hear what your thoughts are on the Aptera beta which is using in-wheel motors
I now want this setup for my GMC Sierra. Looks like a fairly 'easy' method to convert a ice powered vehicle to ev.
Cooling of electronics and motors would be interesting.
HUB motors are far WORSE at cooling and Efficiency.
Better to go with Tesla QUAD Drivetrain & skateboard 🛹 battery.
This opens a lot of possibilities for any ICE car manufacturer to have an electric model with minimal modification. Besides, with a skateboard design, you would get a huge trunk and frunk since you do not need motors or differentials in the car body any more.
Please talk about unsprung weight. The main Achilles heel of these type of motors
If you're retro fitting a ice vehicle the wheel motors are nice because it's unsprung weight... So the battery can weigh as much as the engine / transmission /drive line.
Why not install the motor inboard instead of inwheel and use the engine compartment for protection and using the existing drive shaft?
Are in hub motors even efficient enough? Seems like if they were then more manufacturers would use them instead of only one, aptera.
NO, they are less Efficient than conventional EV motors, just look at the crappy Endurance and Light-year one.
That would be zero, since Aptera is a dream, not an auto manufacturer.
WHOA whoa whoa whoa, hold up
Sandy was one of the designers of the EV1?? Sandy worked on the EV1?? How did I not know this!
Sandy's been in the EV space _this entire time_
When Sandy says "we" did something, it might not have the same meaning as other people might use. Many people at GM and its suppliers worked on the EV1; specifying bolts for part of the car is not quite like designing the electric powertrain...
@@brianb-p6586 Yeah I get the sense that he was a paid consultant on the design or manufacture, not, like, a GM employee or anything.
What about pothole damage to those rotors?
Good point, how about modestly bent rim causing interference wheel lock up at speed?
We need a review of the elaphe hub motors too
NOPE, it's a FLOP.
Tesla QUAD Drivetrain & skateboard 🛹 battery, are SUPERIOR.
@@markplott4820 you have no clue! Lucid's motors are smaller and more superior than what Tesla has to offer.
Jack stands need some eye poke prevention...good review. Yes we need clean designs on conversion cars.
Something tells me that if wheel motors were the best route to take, Tesla would have already taken it.
Tesla aren't perfect, there's a lot of room for improvement like superconductor motors and bucky paper body as well for FLIR sensors.
@@3nityC If you have ideas for how to improve their product you might want to tell Tesla directly, instead of trying to persuade a random TH-cam commenter.
@@kendigjl No we make our own startup it called Born-Neo Corp, I'm here searching for smarter people who can enhance our products to recruit.
Something tells me that if battery electric tech were the best route to take, Ford would have already taken it.
You're assuming that Tesla has a monopoly on innovative ev technology. New technology like we see here mimic the convergence evolution in nature. They all have different starting points. a fish swims much differently than a squid but they both can swim. Depending on where you start, you could end up at the same destination doing it in a completely different way. In Tesla's path, it was battery, controller, and brushless motor in direct drive. If they started with unlimited resources, their path would likely be completed different than what there are today. They would have explore hot swappable batteries like Nio. Or maybe hub motors like this or orbis.
It the same reason we have diesel engines powering semi tractor trailers, high compression Atkinson's cycle ICE, and various electric cars on the road.... Doing the same thing. Getting from point a to point b in a different way.
I have being wondering about that wheel motor poster 'Driving the future of electric vehicles' in the background of this and some other videos, for some time. Now I know thanks
Enjoying the channel
The three wheel Aptera that Sandy and team are consulting on, utilizing hub motors in the wheels. I would like to see a primer on hub wheel motors and the pros and cons of hub motors vs. axle wheel motor setup.
I love Dana Carvey's take on all of this!
Is it not possible to use regenerative braking, and not rely on mechanical braking?
What I would like to know is the weight of the original wheel and spindle and the weight after the conversion.
Also having the inverter attached to the wheel would make the inverter much more expensive to make because the electronics will have to be built to handle the extreme vibration.
I think it would have been better to put the motors on the chassis and have a drive shaft with CV joints to the wheels.
They have been talking about this for the past 10 years and had working prototypes (or not) with each motor outputting 100HP.
Well this is a surprise!, and I recall Sandy saying years ago about taking a ride in a car with inwheel motors, so I won't be surprised if that company was Protean Motors.
4:20 Sandy and the rest of us realizing that battery and controller masses are just *that* much better than they used to be so that you can do a conversion with >200km range and not go *too* much over the original curb weight. 🕺🕺🕺🔋
I see a lot of ppl "worried" about weight etc and how it will perform in the long run. Many years ago Eliica used same concept of in wheel motor, may be could be worth checking how things wen´t along the road to foresee if theese concerns have a point or not.
Interesting placement of the brakes. Why didn't they use a multi-plate brake stack inside the motor stator? Airplanes use a similar configuration. It provides a lot of brake torque in a small space, but is harder to cool. Not a big deal for airplanes as they can only land every 30min, and maybe not a big deal for an EV as most of the braking happens via the wheel motor?
This was way back iirc, the Amg mercedes wheel motor was what, 10 years ago or so? Surprised the idea is not scrapped. It seemed to be a great idea at the time, ICE manufacturer's didn't have dedicated EV platforms at the time so back then it was kind of a short cut to EV's. Or so I think was the reasoning behind it. Drawback was of course the added unsprung weight. I think we are passed that area now? Is there a market for these kind of motors today? How much added unsprung weight per motor?
Tom Prucha looked very familiar. I have seen him at some Auto conf/exhibitions. Believe he worked at Protean before Munro. This video should be interesting.
Excellent Thankyou Munro. I've been interested in 'in wheel motors' for a long time. I'm not an engineer, and all I hear about with 'in wheel motors' is 'un-sprung weight' but in my mind, I don't see what the issue is, if you make the motors light enough.
Does this thing do 're gen'?
Are they looking to compete in the retro fit market?
What would these motors do for a pickup or van?
I guess torque vectoring is a go??
Um, the wheel motors aren’t adding any weight to the suspension so that is a weight reduction over other EVs. It does increase the unsprung weight so I’m surprised the shocks weren’t beefed up a bit.
Lots of unsprung mass in wheels will make it difficult to achieve good driving dynamics. I can imagine could be great tech for industrial applications. Amazing packaging possibilities
I wonder how EVs with wheel hub motors handle compared to EVs with axle motors. Ideally you want to keep the mass of the wheels low to minimize unspring weight to keep the ride smooth when go over bumps. That's difficult to do when you have the motor in the wheel. I imagine the ride is much more "bumpy" and the motor assmebly is absorbing a lot of that vibration. The wheel is also what collect most of the road grime, so I wonder what they do to keep the inhub motors impervious to road debree, so that their inhub motors will last as long as axle motors.
So many possibilities.
Any observations on the wheel-motor unit unsprung weight difference to the original?
What is Monroe's view on wheel hub motors?
Sandy gets two things Wrong.
#1 - OUTDATED hub motors technology.
#2 - Hydrogen.
Most everything else, he gets right.
@@markplott4820 Hydrogen?
@@levmatta - YES, Sandy still thinks Hydrogen is VIABLE......lol.
Hydrogen is a dead horse 🐎.
We need this on farm tractors yesterday!! They are soo after in the evolution!!🙈
As a cyclist, I like the idea that brake calipers are well away from the axle.
the 4 hub motor act as BRAKES when 🛑 and going downhill. friction brakes only needed for emergency.
in regards to the swap itself I would hands down swap my diesel engine for a couple of theese wheels and a modest range, I just need it for city driving. With whatever fits in lower end of engine bay and trans I think would be more than enough.
The Unsprung weight will be much better now than before surely? Giving a better ride and handling
Has the end of that pressed steel member at 05:35 cracked and failed?
Give me a heads up when I can order these out of the Summit Racing catalog.
Doesn't the regenerative braking, which doesn't use the friction surface, do a majority of the braking? Or is this designed with the assumption the regen might fail and you still must stop the car. (Fault tolerance/redundancy)
Yes, the friction brake is required for redundancy, but also to provide enough braking torque in an emergency (the motor can't produce enough by itself).
Hub motors are a good idea however the weight is a problem. If they can solve that then it might be used in more applications.
I love the concept of wheel motors but can not imagine how to make all of the pieces in it stand up to the shock forces from potholes and normal road vibrations.
How hard is it to take off the wheels to replace tires? An unlucky flat on the road?
Not much a fan of in-wheel motors but it comparable to front wheel drive and front engine config car, not good for performance but very practical for cars/users that just needs to go from point A to B
Wow, lots of real-estate consumed by the motors. Can they regen? Rotors look scary but looking forward to Sandy's review. You mention the motor in question is an 18". Is tire size restricted to motor size?
Naturally, ALL hub motors can REGEN, the problem is there is not enough space for batteries, to power HUB motors LONG RANGE.
a Tesla model 3 LR is more efficient, and lighter weight w/ SMALLER battery pack that gets MORE range.
another consideration is PROTEAN, has LESS EFFICIENT & capable BMS cooling system. it's going to be CRAP battery management.
The bulky hub, motor and brake assembly set the requirement for the minimum wheel diameter. You could switch to a larger-diameter wheel, but if the overall tire diameter is increased the motor and brake performance will be reduced.
This motor in wheels tech is DOA, please add comments why not
1. Way higher unsprung mass so way higher wear and tear on the suspension or expensive suspension components
2. Per axle we would need 2 motors wiring and double the electronics so can’t be cheap and mass market
3. Water salt damage does to exposure
4. If bad roads encounter before only run/tyre issue now you have to deal with motor issues which cannot be handled on normal tire shops
5 obviously packaging issue makes it expensive
Very (Lohner) Porsche, complete with Hub motors and inside calipers
My design used inboard brakes to avoid the mess they made here but it looks ok
engines in wheels I'm not convinced (yet). Higher unsprung mass, Higher rotating inertia. How that effect comfort, reliability of suspension, how much higher is risk to damage rim when you drive through pothole. How difficult will be tune suspension when oryginalny unsprung mass was ex 5% and after ex 10%?. Inverter in the wheel with all vibrations?
How do you change the tires when you get a flat?
Same as a Regular tire.
the Wheel Hub is the MOTOR.
it means you can't Change or upgrade Wheel size , to make MORE efficient (18") or performance (22") wheels.
@@markplott4820 You also have to unlock the electrical lines from the motor and the brake system caliper. The brake disk is fixed onto the hub. I doubt that this heavy wheel will fit into an ordinary tire machine.
@@vic321344 - it will have to be built MORE robust, than a Tesla suspension and wheel hub, it will add a lot of WEIGHT.......lol.
@@vic321344 No, the motor is within the wheel just like conventional hubs and brakes - the motor won't be part of the wheel. The wheel is a normal wheel and removes as usual, leaving the hub with the brakes and the enormous motor still attached, so the brake caliper and wiring are not involved in a tire change.
@@brianb-p6586 You are right, I just looked at it from the inside.
A neat conversion, but it is the perfect advertisement as to why EVs must be a clean sheet design from an ICE vehicle. Should modify a Tesla, or another pure EV. Bits of electronics all over the car is expensive. With no frunk, surely could have found space to fit all the electronics, including the inverters under the hood. The Protean set up has a lot of expensive stuff in the wheel and close to the ground - no off-roading or potholes for that vehicle. Protean should aim for low power applications and reduce the cost and size of its stuff. The Tesla motor cradle set-up looks very good in comparison.
54kwh is a small (dare I say tiny) battery for this size vehicle. With its size, weight and non-optimized drag, it is likely to be able to do 150 mile range (real world) - which is great for city driving but won’t work for longer trips. Having said that, it’s probably good for demos as it reduces weight and would provide better performance (until the battery runs out)
What about vibrations and the durability of the inverter inside the wheel? Solder joints don't like vibrations very much.
Very cool. If someone can figure out how to scale these as kits that certified shops can do installs and swaps for then this could be huge.
I wonder what would be the best swap at scale market vehicle to pick as first kit to design, is that why they chose an older Mercedes? 🤔
Having the inverters packaged within the hub itself is very interesting- only having DC wires is a packaging boon and is likely more efficient, but I'm far more interested in what the hell that inverter even looks like, or what other advantages there were.
There's an exploded view on the Protean website.
The DC wiring is two conductors rather than three for the 3-phase wiring, but there's no wiring packaging advantage beyond that.
would be interesting to get a motor off and disassembled!
why ? It's OUTDATED technology.
Tesla QUAD Drivetrain is the PLATINUM standard in motor technology.
@@markplott4820 I can see you are, maybe, limited on motor size (so power). Other than that, what makes a Tesla set up better?
It's nice for a retrofit and always nice to see someone doing new things but it's not even a real world option.
Beside the 54 kWh battery capacity, any additional technical information,
such as motor power and cooling system, like heat pump or octavalve?
And also information about the cost of this retrofit?
So, building one from the ground up (skateboard chassis type) with big flat battery in the chassis, using those wheel motors WILL leave lots of trunk and fronk space!
Great video. Do you see the wheel motor replacing the current motor configurations like in the Tesla? Besides being closer to where the power is delivered, what are advantages? Are they cheaper?
The sprung to unsprung weight ratio needs to be considered here.
Wonder how these compare to Elaphe who is supplying Aptera and Lordstown.
they are all BULLSHIT 🐂💩.