Power Drawbar and Tool Offsets (DIY CNC Mill Upgrades 2)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 พ.ค. 2024
- Resources and BOM: drdflo.com/CNC-Mill.html
Dr. D-Flo's Instagram: / dr.dflo
D-Flo’s Amazon Store: www.amazon.com/shop/dr.d-flo
Supplies/Products:
Power Drawbar Kits: geni.us/Priest-Tools
Common tools and supplies: dflo.info/Amazon
Touch Plates and probe:
Manual (paid link): geni.us/Manual-Touch-Plate
Digital (paid link): geni.us/Digital-Touch-plate
ITTP Digital Probe: geni.us/ITTP-Probe
Tormach TTS Holders: geni.us/Tormach-TTS
Video Description:
This is the second installment in the Dr. D-Flo’s CNC mill upgrade series. In this video, a power drawbar (i.e., pneumatic drawbar) is installed to automate the loading and unloading of tools. Dr. D-Flo explains how a powerful air cylinder and Belleville washers (also known as spring washers) work against each other to hold the tool tightly when cutting but freely release the end mill during a tool change. The power drawbar not only increases the speed of switching out end mills, drills and other tooling, but also provides a strong and constant holding force of 32 ft-lbs to ensure that the tool holder is properly seated and does not slip during the cutting operation.
Speaking of tool holding, Dr. D-Flo also explains the magic behind the Tormach Tool System (TTS) holders, which have allowed for mills with R8 spindles to be used as effective CNC machines. The TTS holders maintain the length of the cutting tools between operations, allowing for seamless transitions between tools.
At the end of the video, Dr. D-Flo demonstrates how to find the length of a digital probe and cutting tools through both analog and digital touch plates.
Table of Contents:
00:00 - Introduction
03:18 - Power Drawbar Operating Principle
04:08 - Priest Tools' Kit
05:55 - Belleville Washers
05:55 - Installing and Tensioning Drawbar
10:48 - Mounting the Air Cylinder
12:55 - Floating Assembly
14:11 - Electronics and Pneumatic Tubing
16:02 - Flipping the Switch!
17:01 - TTS Holders
18:55 - Tool Height Offsets
#CNC #Mill #Automatic - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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This is awesome thanks for this great video! I now fully understand how power drawbar systems work. You be surprised how there's no one else that shows these being setup or explaining them! Thanks
One of the best, most comprehensive, quick but detailed, informative videos....ever.
Thank you, and good job.
Dr. D-Flow you're costing me a fortune. Ordered my PM-833TV today which will be CNC as budget permits and the LEAD CNC a few months ago which I use as double duty Plasma/router thanks for the excellent inspirational videos.
I'm glad someone is spending as much money as me when it comes to all these CNC projects! 😅 What are you making in your shop?
@@DrDFlo well let's just say I started about a year ago when I went off work as a Correctional Officer for PTSD and I decided that I needed to keep busy I came across you and a couple other channels like Clough42 and This old Tony among others and decided to put the shop if my desires together. Your machine selection happened to be right up my alley so I figured good enough for TH-cam good enough for me...lol. This week is cast brass Desk Cannons. I'm sitting in front of my forge right now melting a couple pounds of brass which I will cast into metal rods which I'll turn on my lathe which I also got this year. I don't know where you find the time to do your video editing. But you do a fantastic job with your videos.
@@steelbarz I have been watching a lot of forged in fire on Netflix, so I am definitely digging the forging process. Just need a bigger shop now... And I appreciate the comment on the editing. Honestly, that feels like my weakest point. It takes so long to edit that I usually just thrown in the rag after a couple days banging my head against the desk
@@DrDFlo I have to say as a lifelong hobbiest (I'm 49) this foray into metalwork has been so satisfying. I've contemplated venturing into the TH-cam universe as well because I'm sure I could help someone like guys like you helped me. But I find that all this set up has me learning so much to add managing a TH-cam channel would break the mind..lol. But I have to say it's been the best therapy I ever could have done. To be able to take some scraps of metal cut or melt them down, cast and machine into new stuff has been so much fun and satisfying. My 1st purchase was the LEAD CNC after watching your videos then the forge/furnace, a couple of welding machines a lathe and in August my mill will be shipped. So as I see it this is your fault, you started my mania..lol. Thank you again and know this. If you ever wonder if you did good in your life you had a direct and positive impact on a man that was at a really low point in his life and helped him climb back to a meaningful and purposeful existence not to mention show an old dog some new tricks. Sorry to put that out publicly but sometimes people who do good things don't get the thanks they deserve. So again Thank you for the effort you put into your work it makes a difference in this world. And to the other TH-cam machinists who inspired me the same goes for you guys as well.
I am on a roll with these CNC upgrades! But I will be taking a small break from the mill to work on another really awesome project. Follow me on instagram to get a sneak peek of this laser powered machine that's coming to the Dr. D-Flo channel soon.
Interesting system. It seems like it would be a great approach if you always use the same size collet. Presumably that is what you do. Nicely done. Belleville washers are a really interesting invention. Elegantly simple.
It's awesome how you can stack them in different ways to yield an infinite number of spring constants and deflection amounts.
Genius work
Just brilliant !!
That’s a really neat video, love the content!
Appreciate it!
Great video and write-up for this and part 1. I just got a G0704 and am looking to do a conversion on it-- your info on the LinuxCNC/Mesa integration was handy, since there are just a huge array of options to pick from. Saw a video from James/Clough42 a while back where he retrofitted his G0704 with a big 3HP ATC spindle (FM30F from CNC Depot + Hitachi VFD). Granted, those spindle combos are pricey (around $3800), and not to mention you still need to machine a new spindle brackets.
Also re: lathes -- would be cool to see you try mill turning or 4th axis milling. Mill turning = put the work in the spindle and attach single-point tools to your vise or other fixture on the bed. Looks pretty handy for short parts.
3/8 rod coupling will work in pinch form1/2 “ Allen. Great job
Very cool,,,the 950 for the kit over at P-tools at present is out of reach, but a great upgrade.
If you’re anything like myself you prefer permanent and efficient solutions but in a pinch grab a piece of hardware with 2 nuts(nuts need to be your 1/2 inch drive size so something like a 5/16x18 should be a 1/2 inch nut. Install 2 nuts on a bolt locking the two nuts together on the end of your bolt and stick the nuts in your socket cap bolt and use a socket or wrench to drive the bolt securing your cap bolt more than finger tight. Realize this is even worse than a rubber wrench, and I’d like to say this kind of solution should only be applied to get to the testing phase or until the correct tool can be obtained. Sweet content man. Hope this suggestion saves you a little hassle in the future. I think my biggest, best realization in my maker space was that it works both ways...we use tools to make things but we can also use things to make tools. There’s a beauty in that for me that words don’t really describe.
Why wouldn't you just run the nut all the way down the bolt to tighten and then track the nut to the bolt to undo it?
@@kingp00 tightened to the bolt head works for running it in. I’d think your need a jam nut to remove. Hopefully by this point he has the correct hex key. Your way would work as well, I was more getting at making tools is an acceptable strategy. In this case that tool is about as basic as it gets. Almost more of an adapter...but that doesn’t mean more complex tools can’t be made in a maker space. Sometimes to avoid that hardware store trip and sometimes you can just make a better tool for your specific needs. This is not that use case but IMHO is food for thought for all makers out there. Thanks for replying and pointing out if I ever need this setup that it will in fact work with only one nut ran to the head.
@@jonflannery8984 don't need a jam nut if you've got a welder ;)
@@kingp00 sad thing is I have an inexpensive Mig in the shop. It’s not much but this fix hadn’t occurred to me with the tools to do it. I think that should be part of the overall idea of the first comment too. Can make tools AND there’s usually more than a few ways to “skin the same cat” if you will.
great video..i'm actually going to be attempting this soon with a iso 30 pull stud system...zoinks..
I was having the same problem... Thank you so much. Problem solved. awesome video.
Glad I could help clear that up for you! It would have been really simple for PM to just put two flats on the spindle to use a wrench
@@DrDFlo
There is a “spline wrench” you can buy online that fits over the top of the spindle so you can torque down the drawbar. You need to remove the covers so the pulley is exposed to use it.
I bought it for my PM833TV for $23 from littlemachineshop - search “spindle spline wrench”
shame on PM for not including it with the system. Most Bridgeport style mills have a lever on the side of the head that allows you to lock rotation of the spindle.
@@13elieved I used a very similar tool to set the tension on the spring washers. I will add this tool to my website guide. I appreciate the tip
Thanks buddy!
Wow. You're literally running into the same issues. I just got my mill a couple weeks ago. This week I've been able to play with it. This is the first thing I noticed...I thought I was missing a part on the drawbar. I posted something on hobby-machinist with no good answers. I also saw an older thread saying that PM is supposed to release a tool to resolve this. I thought about the 50 RPM trick, but didn't know how bad the torque is. I think I'll still avoid it :) Thanks for risking it! Anyway, I spent some time today milling out a spacer for the drawbar- a cheap Chinese face mill didn't have enough thread which caused the drawbar not to seat properly. I thought R8 tools were standardized. Excellent video as always!
As some people have pointed out, you can use a spline wrench: www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-spindle-spline-wrench/t26307?fbclid=IwAR162mk5fHQ66rovcGaYqPoMV_25croIPoRURdrWpO2t7e7eOiZNmP83kYo
Which should hold you over until you get your power drawbar installed. Cheers!
@@DrDFlo Perfect, thanks for the tip!
This is pretty cool. One question, is there a tormac collet that will hold an R8 tool? I have several tools like my precision Jacobs chuck that I would hate to loose the use of if I installed the power draw bar.
Note My PM833TV has a different top than yours which solved the issue of tightening the draw bar, the case is smaller (shorter) so the spline is above the top of the case making it possible to use a spline wrench (provided with my mill). There is a cap that covers it that comes off easily.
DIY is more like own build cnc machine ;)
Hi I’m planning to build a power drawbar for my mill which is similar to yours, could you please tell me the stroke of the 100mm cylinders or even the spec?
Many Thanks for these superb informative videos..
those spring washers also are more balanced than normal springs
Is there an electrical cutout to stop the mill from turning on if the plate is left in? Assume if not that’s be an easy interlock to implement. Really enjoyed this one man. Thanks for taking the time to put it together and share it with us.
Great question! The drawbar can spin freely with the plate in. The plate only needs to be removed to use the quill
@@DrDFlo you should implement a safety feature to prevent the spindle from turning when you change a tool
@@ipadize I am still toying with the idea of adding an ATC. Then I will wire the solenoid into my mill's controller board and it will make sure a tool change does not occur when the spindle is on.
Thanks VERY much for this video! I've followed your CNC build on the 833 along with several other folks' builds PM-729, 728, even Sieg Minis in anticipation of going with a larger mill than my Sieg clone and going full CNC: and I had just settled on the 833 largely because of your very nice build (along with it's very cool features, like the excellent Taiwanese quality and great 8+ inch Y axis travel). But PM still makes me a bit nervous because of the continuous "It's a great machine -- ...except for this one thing..." comments. But crikey! -- this is indeed a MAJOR flaw with what is supposed to be their flagship "ultra precision" benchtop mill. Have they fixed this yet? All it would take is a couple of flats for a wrench or even just a hole for a tommy bar (like my Little Machine Shop Sieg has). Is there some reason you couldn't add those features (of course using someone else's mill since you'd have a "chicken and egg" problem)? Something about that particular spindle that makes that impossible? Not that YOU should have to come up with that yourself -- PM should have! I'm sure you don't want to "beat up" PM, but are there other gotchas you've encountered now that you have (vast) experience with the 833? Anyway thanks for a best-in-class CNC build series, especially your extremely well explained upgrades (the servo motor upgrade was a particular standout for completely de-mystifying a topic I had been avoiding (for what I now know was no reason)!
Badass! Do you have any projects you plan to build on video after you finish your equipment? Need a lathe asap!
Yes! I want to make some of my own linear motion components and extruder assemblies to build some unique 3D printers
@@DrDFlo on another note, I'm shocked to see belleville washers used like that. In my line of work, they are only used/compressed once and then have to be thrown away. I look forward to seeing if you lose strength/ tolerance over time.
Have a SB 9c lathe 4-sale, any interest? Bear
So I have some questions I'm a younger machinist hear learned all manual stuff before doing the whole CNC thing when it started catching on. What are some of the cost in doing this whole DIY thing. Like what's the choices? And why not get a tormach ect? I'll be a machinist/maker till I die that's forsure I love the the trade and I'd like to end up with a decent machine that's decent in steel. Speeds&feeds in concoderation to. I am lost though. Need feedback from people that have a better idea. Seems like a lot of money
Great Video! I am considering converting either a PM-728 or the PM-933. I plan to work with lots of aluminum. I have not worked with a milling machine in many years. I continue to see videos of folks increasing the spindle speed of their mills. The PM-728 has a max speed of 4300 rpm vs 3200 on the PM-933. What are your thoughts regarding the max spindle speed of 3200 rpm? Do you find it adequate for working aluminum? Do you get a good surface finish while face milling? Have you had issues with small end mills or drill bits? Thanks again for such detailed, well thought out videos?
Hey man! Those quick questions you fired off are complex to answer, but here are some fast answers.
What are your thoughts regarding the max spindle speed of 3200 rpm? This has been adequate for my work. However, I'm actually worried about the performance at lower speeds for cutting steel and rigid tapping. The stock PM833TV motor has very low torque at low RPMs because it is a general duty motor. I am actually upgrading this motor to an inverter duty for more torque at lower speeds. This video is coming soon.
Do you find it adequate for working aluminum? Yes, but your definition of adequate may be slightly different than mine. I'm making one-off prototypes, so speed is not my concern, but if you are making production parts that extra 30% speed of the PM-933 could really come in handy.
Do you get a good surface finish while face milling? Yes but I use a slower finishing pass at the very end to get a nice surface finish.
Have you had issues with small end mills or drill bits? No, but the smallest end mill I have used is a 3mm. You can always turn down the feed rate if you are using a small end mill.
Edit: spelling
@@DrDFlo Thanks so much getting back to me. These answers are very helpful. I am on the fence as which direction to go. I suspect that the PM-728 is probably big enough for small detailed projects however I like the larger castings of the PM-940 and PM833TV. I already built most of the electronics thinking I was going with the PM-728 or PM-940, then saw your video and started looking at the PM-833TV. The drivers I used will drive up to a 1700 oz. Nema 34 stepper. This is the same stepper that Arizona Video uses for the Z-Axis of the PM-940. I was just reviewing your bill of material and noticed that you used a 2830 oz. Nema 42 stepper for the Z-axis. That is one very large stepper. If I cannot use my 1700 oz. stepper for the Z-axis, I may have to pass on the PM-833TV. I do however like the size and build quality of the PM-833TV. I did not realize that the Z-axis needed such a large stepper.
@@joels4208 it needs a bigger stepper to prevent the Z axis from dropping when its not under powder. Large stepper motors have high detent torque. You can also use a motor with a brake
@@DrDFlo Thanks David. I reached out to Bruce Nelson today and he said that they modified the motor mounts to enable the use of either a Nema 34 or Nema 42 motor for the Z axis. He thinks the 1700 oz. stepper would work fine for the Z-axis.
I found you comment "The stock PM833TV motor has very low torque at low RPMs because it is a general duty motor" very interesting. I had not considered this aspect of the three mills (PM728VT, PM940V & PM833VT) before. Both the PM728VT and PM940V have two speed belt drive system to provide greater torque at the lower end. I completely missed the fact that the PM833VT has a one speed belt drive . Thank you very much for pointing this out. It is something to think about.
Should build an auto tool changer to work with the tormach tools holder.
I'm definitely thinking about it... You can actually buy kit on aliexpress, which definitely peeks my interest.
How long did it take to work out you can tighten those 1/2" Allen's with a 1/2" bolt head?
Still have not worked that out 🤣 it’s very anti-American of me but I only have metric bolts
@@DrDFlo oh dear.
Would love to see a budget comparison with this build and say a haas mini mill.
I'd avoid Haas. The best thing about them is their advertising.
@@zedsdead7670 What problems have you experienced with them?
@@beachboardfan9544 servo driver/amplifier issues especially on the vf9. The mini Haas keeps having door lock issues. The vf9 driver's will overheat while completely idle, with no rhyme or reason. They lose their z axis all of the time having to re-home everything. Tool carriage position gets lost all too often. If you loose your z axis position in the middle of a tapping operation you have to cut the tap off, because when it loses its position it locks out manual mode thus you have to re-home the machine. Every add on for the machines are absurdly priced and so on.
I can't understand how to grip the tool holder without screwing in the bar...🤔🤔🤔 Would it be used for a machine with a morse cone 4?
At 17:02 He mentions that it is difficult to change R8 collets so they use standardized tool holders. Basically a toolholder inside a toolholder. Personally, I'm going back to the impact type power drawbar so I can change R8 collets quicker.
Dr D-Flo, please tell me which Collet you bought to hold the TTS tool holder. Also I don't see the tool holders you're using on the Tormach website. I bought the same mill and ordered the same kit
Here is the R8 Collet:
tormach.com/tts-adapter-collet-r8-50568.html
Here is a metric TTS set: tormach.com/tts-metric-tool-holder-set-32291.html
@@DrDFlo thank you for your quick reply. $1k is a stiff entry fee.
i think you could get a new cnc machine with all these upgrades. jk great video
So what do you have invested in all of this machine and all??
16:50 maybe a stupid question, but most of tool changes will require a change of the whole collet and it doesn't come out this way. In which case, what is the point? All tools are different diameter. Ah okay, 18:00 makes sense, but how many thousands of dollars were you out after such upgrade? Would be nice if you mention costs of upgrades, that's very important.
Whats the Dewalt device on the wall?
Price wise when taking into account motion control, motors and the ballscrew kit how does it compare to something like a pcnc 770? I would guess the 833TV is comparable in size and hp to this?
Barebone without upgrade
770 travel: X = 14” Y=7.5” Z=13.25”
PM 833TV X = 22” Y = 11” Z = 17.5”
This is even bigger than the 1100M, so really if you compare it to that larger Tormach there are cost savings to be had if you go the DIY route.
@@DrDFlo do you plan on making an enclosure to run flood coolant?
Yes sir!
Can't wait to see that!
@@hyeloque3537 Couple of months! I have more mill upgrades coming before that!
So this mod only removes compression of drawbar right? If it doesn't also give the "love tap" to lower drawbar within the spindle how do you break pressure between collet and spindle so the tool falls out?
I think that's what the anti-seize is for
you live in USA?
Cost?
Dr D Flo,
I ordered my power drawbar on
12/25/2021 from Greg Priest.
It's 2/26/2022 and still not received it.
If you have any pull with Greg,
please tell him I ordered based on your recommendation.
It would be really bad if its no longer available. I'm in a wheelchair and can't reach the top of the mill. I chose this mill based on your videos showing it would work for me.
Please help.
Thanks.
3/19/2022 Still waiting
Finally got it.
The holes on the mounting plate were off. I drilled new ones.
The thing would bind up until I added washers to level it.
Waiting on a wiring diagram to install EStop.
The plus is a guy in a wheelchair can change end mills from his wheelchair.
The negative is:
The instructions are horrible. No parts diagram so good luck figuring out what part he's referring to.
You loose the use of your quill! There is a lot of hardware hanging off your mill that no longer works. This is really bad.
You can't use anything but Tormach tools. Your entire set of R8 collets are now worthless. Argh.
can you tell me what computer you are using to run your mill. I assume you are using Linux?
Intel Nuc 5 and yes Linux. All the info is on my webpage: www.drdflo.com/pages/Projects/CNC-Mill.html
@@DrDFlo Thank you, I missed your projects page. Great page!
Great video. But, why does there always have to be a "but", you fail to address the fact that when the "plate" is engaged the quill won't work. Also, I believe the effect of engaging the cylinder without the plate would be to push the quill down a little with no harm. I've never seen this mill so I'm guessing from the video.
Would be cool if you had a "quill up" sensor and a small air cylinder to push/pull the plate. Flip the tool change switch, if the quill is at top the plate will be pulled in by the small cylinder and big cylinder will release tool. Flip tool change switch back, the tool is locked in and the plate is pushed out. The quill now works.
I didn't just come up with this stuff. I have a similar problem adding the Tormack cylinder to my Bridgeport mill so I've been thinking about this for awhile. My quill is my CNC Z axis so it has to move. My problem is worsened by the fact that when the quill is lowered the Bellville Washers have to move down and inside the spindle, a 1" hole, so washer size is limited. Anyway, it's doable.
The logic to control pushing and pulling is easy. Maybe a couple of logic chips powered by the voltage used by the air solenoid. If you want to try it and need help with the logic I'll send you a sketch. Or, maybe you have that talent also.
On second thought, could be no logic is needed, only putting the switches im series.
To be honest, I haven’t used my quill in a long time. It messes up my tool heights if I use it, so really wasn’t thinking about it at the the time. But yes if you remove the actuator plate you can use the quill.
Your thought experiment about a quill up sensor is definitely interesting for the manual machinist out there! Let me know if you ever tackle that problem.
3:00 why dont you simply go to a local machine shop and machine two notches in it to accommodate a wrench? Seems like the easiest and most logical solution to me.
Hey man! Glad to see you are enjoying this series. And I appreciate your comments on each of the videos. Two reasons for not putting my own flats on the spindle nose: 1.) I didn't really have a machine shop that I could trust to put two equal flats on the spindle - really any mistake and the spindle is toast 2.) I knew I was going to get a powder drawbar and I was saving up for it!
couple things on manual touch off, if you set a work offset with the spindle nose on the tool setting gauge at your 0.000" reading, and then load a tool physically in the spindle but not in the controller, and bring the tool down to 0.0000" on the setter, the z axis work coordinate will be the tool length offset with no math involved. I do it all the time in probe basic, works a treat!
Second, as techy as you are why have you not taken advantage of the programmable coolant I built into probe basic? it is by far one of the cheapest and easiest mods to do and is wonderful for never having to manually adjust the coolant nozzle. if you need some help getting it sorted, just shoot me a message! it works great on mist nozzles too!
th-cam.com/video/YDJOWWI7RGs/w-d-xo.html
Any particular reason for the Dr. title?
I have about a year left of my PhD
@@DrDFlo Congrats! In the electronic field?
@@Felem1000 Biomedical engineering! All of this mechatronics stuff is just a hobby for me. Sometimes my lack of knowledge gives this fact away
@@DrDFlo Hobby? What are you talking about, you're doing great! The continent you provide is more than enough for us, and we gonna keep coming, back for sure! Maybe someday you gonna use the automatisation and biomedic together!
@@Felem1000 I appreciate the kind words! Last year I published a paper on an open-source automatic liquid handler: www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-70465-5
the connection between my research and hobby is growing!
..Whispers the words 'Automatic Tool Changer' in ear...
Idk if it's just me but no links in the description seem to work. Im just scared that you've been abducted by big 3d print corporations and had your online footprint wiped out
I’m having some problems with the website! I hope to get it back up today!
Tormach Power Drawbar ....th-cam.com/video/gkE0vk_oDAU/w-d-xo.html ?
+
First i believe
very missleading. diy? more like install a priest addon.