This is a cool video and puzzle! If I can make a suggestion though, you might want to move the "player A" to the left side and the "player B" to the right side. Having "Player B" over the woodfall primus and "Player A" under the Murderous Rider made it somewhat disorienting. Also, I think there are a couple more avenues worth exploring with this puzzle to demonstrate why it's a forced draw. If the primus player plays lotus and passes, and the rider player plays lotus and rider, the primus player must use lotus at the end of the rider player's turn and attack if they want to win. If they don't, the rider player just plays the land and adds counters to their land without attacking until they have 3, putting the primus player into a forced draw/loss position again. If the primus player gets the first attack and the rider player blocks, the rider player goes to 18. On the rider player's turn, they have to play their land and then wait 4 more turns (3 turns of it being tapped, then 1 turn of having access to the mana) to cast the rider again to kill the primus. Unfortunately, the primus player gets to do 20 damage before then and so the rider player cannot do that. If the rider player instead takes the 5, then plays the land and begins to attack, the turns look like this: rider player goes to 15, then plays the land with 0 charges, attacks and goes to 17. Primus player attacks and rider player goes to 12. Rider player gets 1 charge and attacks, going to 14. Primus player attacks, rider to 9. Rider players gets 2 charges and attacks, going to 11. Primus player attacks, bringing rider player to 6. Rider player gets 3 charges and does not attack. If the Primus player attacks here, the rider player blocks, drops to 4, draws the rider, and casts swift end, functionally winning the game. The primus player can't allow that to happen, so they can no longer attack. If the rider player continues to attack, the Primus player wins the race, so the rider player cannot attack. Therefore, even if the primus player gets the first attack, it's still a draw, since both players would eventually end up in a position where attacking loses them the game. Even though we know A can't win from the very first play, I still think this is a scenario worth looking at since it demonstrates another potential line that some people might point to, thinking it can force a player B win.
Yeah, I realized the labels on the opposite sides was pretty confusing way too late in the process of making the video. I will try to make the next one labled more intuitively.
"If the primus player gets the first attack and the rider player blocks, the rider player goes to 18." - Why 18? Primus is 5/5 trample, 3 damage goes to rider, and 2 to player B, but rider have lifelink, so does 2 damage and player b gain 2 life, remains in 20 life, not?
At 4:00 if the murderous rider player doesn't attack and stays up to chump, and the woodfall primus attacks, 2 trample is canceled out by 2 lifelink so the rider player stays at 2 with a murderous rider in their library that they will draw. Assuming they have been putting counters on their storage land this whole time, they cannot win by casting swift end because they would lose 2 life and go to 0 life, losing the game. They can cast Murderous rider and keep up the stalemate until they run out of counters on their storage land and so they lose the game in that scenario. If this is incorrect could someone please explain to me why as I cannot find the flaw if there is one.
Great call out, I think I left this unclear by not exploring that option. Although you are right, the purpose of exploring the line was not to determine that the Rider player would lose, but rather that they cannot win. Your explanation is more wholistic, but isn't needed to come to the conclusion that the match is a stalemate. Regardless of how you play it out, the Rider player cannot win by casting the Rider until after the Primus player plays Primus. So, as concluded in the video, it is in the best interest of the Rider player to not play any cards (and because the Primus player can't play Primus until after the threat of Swift End is gone, the game is a tie because neither player wants to play any cards).
In 3 Card Blind, there is perfect information (hands and decklists are revealed), so players will never "fall for bait". Whether they choose to play the Lotus to bait or not has no impact on the outcome (neither positive or negative).
Is there just a list somewhere on the discord I can go into blind? In the quizzes channel, I can see the (emoji) votes for everything before I even see the decks, which kinda gives away the answer. I like these videos!
They do tie at the end, but not for the reason he describes, while the two players exchange attacks, the rider player can add counters to their land, and then chump block the primus, draw rider again, kill primus, and then will win because of the empty board. But if the Primus player holds back mever attacking into the untapped rider, then the rider never dies, and the game ends in a draw.
The Primus player never has to attack into an untapped Rider, which is described in the video. The Bottomless Vault never factors in because the Rider never dies. Because player A cannot win, we only needed to prove B cannot win if they play Rider first, which can be accomplished without even looking at the vault.
@@MTG3CardBlind Oh okay I see, I must have thought that you only were talking about the the untapped rider in the situation of then having no mana to kill the Primus on the immediate next turn.
@@SuperNerd9695 I do think that there is more than one valid way to prove the outcome of this match. I think the way you discussed above works, the way I showcased in the video might just be a little simpler.
@@MTG3CardBlind it is, but I was a little confused with the two creature board, but looking back I should have realized that you had already mentioned the board state that I brought up.
Couldn't the rider player also easily cause a stalemate by playing black lotus and passing. If the primus player used their black lotus and flash to get the primus into play, the rider player could sacrifice black lotus in response to the etb and float 3 black. Then, after the primus has sacrificed and returned to the battlefield, the rider player can use the three black floating to swift end the primus. After that they could play the storage land, eventually cast the rider and win the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with this but maybe I'm missing something?
Since the woodfall player goes first they just open with lotus and if rider is ever cast they flash woodfall eot and get to attack first. If rider chumps they block 3 damage and gain 2 to cancel out the 2 trample. Now the rider playsr plays the land and then you get the pattern: take 5, get a charge counter, take 5, get a charge counter, take 5, and they still need to get the 3rd charge counter so they lose on the 4th attack unable to kill the 5/5 Therefore the rider player cannot cast rider or play the land before the woodfall player acts and the game is a stalemate. The tricky case is if the rider player starts. In which case the previous line would let the rider player win (as the land would get to be played before the first 5/5 attack) so the woodfall player cannot attack into rider. Now you get the case from the video to prove the rider player cannot attack either. Therefore it's a stalemate regardless of who goes first
But there is no scenario, unless the Rider player allows it, where Woodfall Primus *could* attack first. The option to crack lotus in response to either Flash or Primus, float the mana until Persist resolves, and Swift End is available (since both have perfect information).
That still doesnt work. If player b plays the rider and play a flashes in hulk eot then the pattern goes: Player A attacks no block 20-15 Player B attacks 18 - 17 plays land Player A attacks 18 -12 Player B attacks 16 -14 land has 1 counter Player A attacks 16 - 9 Player B attacks 14- 11 land has 2 counters Player A attacks 14 - 6 Player B No attack land has 3 counters Now if player A attacks Player B will block stay at 6, kill primus next turn and win so Player A must pass If player B attacks then Player a cant block 12 - 8 Player A attacks 12 - 3 Now if player B attacks they go to 5 and die to the attack next turn so they pass If player A attacks player B will block stay at 3, untap kill primus going to 1 then win so player A must pass Both players must pass or loose so its a Stalemate
@@kingbreaker19 The example where woodfall primus attacks first is where the first two turns are: player A: lotus pass player B: lotus, crack lotus, cast rider. EoT player A cracks lotus casts flash to cheat in primus player A: attacks with woodfall However, as @rail11389 pointed out, letting woodfall go through instead of blocking gives the rider player enough time to charge up the land and be able to hold up swift end should the primus continue attacking
@@rail11389 That's a good point, I forgot that not blocking buys more turns, so even if player B casts the rider first the game state is still a stalemate
Murderous rider player in this scenario should try and bait an early activation of primus. Play black lotus and pass. Op flashes primus, targets lotus, you crack lotus in response to float 3 black. Let persist resolve then swift end primus. Then play out land and store counters till you can play rider.
In 3 Card Blind, players have perfect information, so they can see each other's hands. They can play their Lotus early as a bait, but the Primus player will never fall for the bait because they know they lose if they take the bait.
I’m imaging an in person tournament for this where two people sit down at a table, flip over three cards, and then nod, go, it’s a draw, and leave
In person 3 Card Blind would be a hillarious mess 🤣
This is a cool video and puzzle! If I can make a suggestion though, you might want to move the "player A" to the left side and the "player B" to the right side. Having "Player B" over the woodfall primus and "Player A" under the Murderous Rider made it somewhat disorienting.
Also, I think there are a couple more avenues worth exploring with this puzzle to demonstrate why it's a forced draw. If the primus player plays lotus and passes, and the rider player plays lotus and rider, the primus player must use lotus at the end of the rider player's turn and attack if they want to win. If they don't, the rider player just plays the land and adds counters to their land without attacking until they have 3, putting the primus player into a forced draw/loss position again. If the primus player gets the first attack and the rider player blocks, the rider player goes to 18. On the rider player's turn, they have to play their land and then wait 4 more turns (3 turns of it being tapped, then 1 turn of having access to the mana) to cast the rider again to kill the primus. Unfortunately, the primus player gets to do 20 damage before then and so the rider player cannot do that. If the rider player instead takes the 5, then plays the land and begins to attack, the turns look like this: rider player goes to 15, then plays the land with 0 charges, attacks and goes to 17. Primus player attacks and rider player goes to 12. Rider player gets 1 charge and attacks, going to 14. Primus player attacks, rider to 9. Rider players gets 2 charges and attacks, going to 11. Primus player attacks, bringing rider player to 6. Rider player gets 3 charges and does not attack. If the Primus player attacks here, the rider player blocks, drops to 4, draws the rider, and casts swift end, functionally winning the game. The primus player can't allow that to happen, so they can no longer attack. If the rider player continues to attack, the Primus player wins the race, so the rider player cannot attack. Therefore, even if the primus player gets the first attack, it's still a draw, since both players would eventually end up in a position where attacking loses them the game.
Even though we know A can't win from the very first play, I still think this is a scenario worth looking at since it demonstrates another potential line that some people might point to, thinking it can force a player B win.
Yeah, I realized the labels on the opposite sides was pretty confusing way too late in the process of making the video. I will try to make the next one labled more intuitively.
"If the primus player gets the first attack and the rider player blocks, the rider player goes to 18." - Why 18? Primus is 5/5 trample, 3 damage goes to rider, and 2 to player B, but rider have lifelink, so does 2 damage and player b gain 2 life, remains in 20 life, not?
At 4:00 if the murderous rider player doesn't attack and stays up to chump, and the woodfall primus attacks, 2 trample is canceled out by 2 lifelink so the rider player stays at 2 with a murderous rider in their library that they will draw. Assuming they have been putting counters on their storage land this whole time, they cannot win by casting swift end because they would lose 2 life and go to 0 life, losing the game. They can cast Murderous rider and keep up the stalemate until they run out of counters on their storage land and so they lose the game in that scenario. If this is incorrect could someone please explain to me why as I cannot find the flaw if there is one.
Great call out, I think I left this unclear by not exploring that option. Although you are right, the purpose of exploring the line was not to determine that the Rider player would lose, but rather that they cannot win. Your explanation is more wholistic, but isn't needed to come to the conclusion that the match is a stalemate.
Regardless of how you play it out, the Rider player cannot win by casting the Rider until after the Primus player plays Primus. So, as concluded in the video, it is in the best interest of the Rider player to not play any cards (and because the Primus player can't play Primus until after the threat of Swift End is gone, the game is a tie because neither player wants to play any cards).
@@MTG3CardBlind Thanks for the clarification.
Like many said, the murderous raider player when going first is encouraged to always play black lotus and nothing else. The rest occurs as explained.
In 3 Card Blind, there is perfect information (hands and decklists are revealed), so players will never "fall for bait". Whether they choose to play the Lotus to bait or not has no impact on the outcome (neither positive or negative).
Is there just a list somewhere on the discord I can go into blind? In the quizzes channel, I can see the (emoji) votes for everything before I even see the decks, which kinda gives away the answer. I like these videos!
Currently there is no way to avoid seeing the emojiis, but maybe we can come up with a better system
really interested to see how the meta evolves
kek
They do tie at the end, but not for the reason he describes, while the two players exchange attacks, the rider player can add counters to their land, and then chump block the primus, draw rider again, kill primus, and then will win because of the empty board.
But if the Primus player holds back mever attacking into the untapped rider, then the rider never dies, and the game ends in a draw.
The Primus player never has to attack into an untapped Rider, which is described in the video. The Bottomless Vault never factors in because the Rider never dies.
Because player A cannot win, we only needed to prove B cannot win if they play Rider first, which can be accomplished without even looking at the vault.
@@MTG3CardBlind Oh okay I see, I must have thought that you only were talking about the the untapped rider in the situation of then having no mana to kill the Primus on the immediate next turn.
@@SuperNerd9695 I do think that there is more than one valid way to prove the outcome of this match. I think the way you discussed above works, the way I showcased in the video might just be a little simpler.
@@MTG3CardBlind it is, but I was a little confused with the two creature board, but looking back I should have realized that you had already mentioned the board state that I brought up.
Couldn't the rider player also easily cause a stalemate by playing black lotus and passing. If the primus player used their black lotus and flash to get the primus into play, the rider player could sacrifice black lotus in response to the etb and float 3 black. Then, after the primus has sacrificed and returned to the battlefield, the rider player can use the three black floating to swift end the primus. After that they could play the storage land, eventually cast the rider and win the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with this but maybe I'm missing something?
Your assessment is correct. There is more than one way to get to the correct answer for this puzzle 👍
Since the woodfall player goes first they just open with lotus and if rider is ever cast they flash woodfall eot and get to attack first.
If rider chumps they block 3 damage and gain 2 to cancel out the 2 trample. Now the rider playsr plays the land and then you get the pattern:
take 5, get a charge counter,
take 5, get a charge counter,
take 5, and they still need to get the 3rd charge counter so they lose on the 4th attack unable to kill the 5/5
Therefore the rider player cannot cast rider or play the land before the woodfall player acts and the game is a stalemate.
The tricky case is if the rider player starts. In which case the previous line would let the rider player win (as the land would get to be played before the first 5/5 attack) so the woodfall player cannot attack into rider.
Now you get the case from the video to prove the rider player cannot attack either.
Therefore it's a stalemate regardless of who goes first
But there is no scenario, unless the Rider player allows it, where Woodfall Primus *could* attack first. The option to crack lotus in response to either Flash or Primus, float the mana until Persist resolves, and Swift End is available (since both have perfect information).
That still doesnt work. If player b plays the rider and play a flashes in hulk eot then the pattern goes:
Player A attacks no block 20-15
Player B attacks 18 - 17 plays land
Player A attacks 18 -12
Player B attacks 16 -14 land has 1 counter
Player A attacks 16 - 9
Player B attacks 14- 11 land has 2 counters
Player A attacks 14 - 6
Player B No attack land has 3 counters
Now if player A attacks Player B will block stay at 6, kill primus next turn and win so Player A must pass
If player B attacks then Player a cant block 12 - 8
Player A attacks 12 - 3
Now if player B attacks they go to 5 and die to the attack next turn so they pass
If player A attacks player B will block stay at 3, untap kill primus going to 1 then win so player A must pass
Both players must pass or loose so its a Stalemate
@@kingbreaker19 The example where woodfall primus attacks first is where the first two turns are:
player A: lotus pass
player B: lotus, crack lotus, cast rider. EoT player A cracks lotus casts flash to cheat in primus
player A: attacks with woodfall
However, as @rail11389 pointed out, letting woodfall go through instead of blocking gives the rider player enough time to charge up the land and be able to hold up swift end should the primus continue attacking
@@rail11389 That's a good point, I forgot that not blocking buys more turns, so even if player B casts the rider first the game state is still a stalemate
Murderous rider player in this scenario should try and bait an early activation of primus. Play black lotus and pass. Op flashes primus, targets lotus, you crack lotus in response to float 3 black. Let persist resolve then swift end primus. Then play out land and store counters till you can play rider.
But flashing in the Primus to destroy lotus really doesn't do anything for that player, and so that line of play would not occur
In 3 Card Blind, players have perfect information, so they can see each other's hands. They can play their Lotus early as a bait, but the Primus player will never fall for the bait because they know they lose if they take the bait.
love this !