I mentioned in the video that I was going to talk about something in the comments. What I'll be talking about is the concept of "carrying capacity" and how it probably helped contribute to Arnor's downfall. So Arnor's population probably should've grown, even if slowly, until the death of Earendur which saw the kingdom get split into three. At this point, the decline picks up, as all three kingdoms contest land with each other, inevitably contributing to the further decline of the Dunedain. The 1356 and 1409 Invasions further compound this issue, leaving Arnor in tatters. But what about after 1409? Arthedain (and Cardolan to an extent) get centuries of peace, so how come they didn't rebound? This comes down to "carrying capacity", which is basically how big a population can a land support. There's a number of factors in this, but the most important one in this case comes down to arable land. Societies in Middle-earth are mostly agricultural, without the amazing technology and extensive logistics we have in our world. In other words, your population is "soft capped" by the amount of the amount of arable land you have and the amount of food you can grow from it. You can offset this cap by importing food (not that Arthedain had any major imports at this point), but generally, if your population is unsustainable, you run a major risk of starvation...which is bad. Carrying capacity affected nations in our own history. For example, estimated Ottoman and Russian populations in 1600 were 24 million and 16 million, but by 1,800, the Ottomans had barely grown to 26 million, whereas Russia had boomed to 35 million. In 1900, the difference was immense, Russia (not Poland and Finland) sat at 120 million, whereas the Ottomans had only risen to 31 million. Why? Territory. Of course, there's other factors too, but as the Russian Empire expanded across Asia, they gained access to vast new territories for their settlers, and many of these places were quite fertile. As a result, population boomed, allowing Russia to become juggernaut of 19th and 20th century politics. On the other hand, Ottoman territory did not grow during these years, and much of their territory was arid or desert. As a result, their population grew slowly, and their power could not keep up with their European neighbours. So why the fuck am I talking about this? Well, Arthedain was like the Ottoman Empire, but worse. Arthedain's territory on a map and Arthedain's territory in reality were likely completely different, especially following the 1409 Invasion. When Angmar smashed through Arthedain's frontier and threatened Fornost itself, it likely became apparent to many people that Arthedain could not protect its vast territory. This would have led to a mass exodus of peoples from Arthedain's outer territories towards the area around Fornost. In the process, these people abandon arable land (such as the Shire) in order to get better protection from their armies. So how does this come back to carrying capacity? Well, if people are flooding into Fornost from outer territories, it puts a strain on Fornost's resources. In other words, as Arthedain's physical territory shrinks, so does their crop output, so therefore their population growth slows as well. If their population growth doesn't slow, they'll potentially suffer from starvation...which is bad. And at northern climates such as Arthedain, one bad winter could kill off a whole lot of people if the land is already close to carrying capacity. I think that's why King Araval attempted to resettle Cardolan. Overpopulation might've been a problem at this point, and securing more arable land would allow the population to grow again without fear of starvation. The Barrow-downs were likely a good place, easily defendable and relatively close to Fornost. But then the Barrow-wights happened. And if there were overpopulation problems at this point, then the Witch-king soon solved it by going back to killing Arnorians again. So TLDR; Arthedain did not recover between 1409-1974 because their population retreated towards their heartland. Their heartland could only support so much people, so as a result their growth stagnated, and Angmar eventually outstripped them in power again. This leads to another question though. How the fuck did Angmar feed their people? I'll figure that one out later.
Your videos are amazing but sadly, you are not. Why you find it necessary to be putrid, ignoble and profane is anyone's guess. But it is your choice, so enjoy your banquet and lots of luck to you, but my choice is not to swim through a sea of puke seeking a pearl. Besides, sick trees never grow so well, so your channel's going to wither and die anyway. No point waiting around to see it. Cheers.
Hi! Arnor Fan, back at it again! In your "Why was Arnor so weak compared to Gondor" you list several factors, mainly farming, population and the hillman. My question is this, you said Arnor deforested massive portions of Eriador to full their shipyards. In turn, this angered the hillman, causing them to move further inland, while some even sided from Angmar centuries later. In contrast to this, the Kingdom of Gondor enjoyed much more peace and prosperity with their hillman. Able to slowly build up their fleet without causing any major loss to the rustic landscape. So, if I may be so bold, what would happen if Arnor didn't deforest the southern lands of Eriador? Yes, they wouldn't be able to build up a fleet, but their relations with the hillman would be way better. (it seems like the fleet didn't do dickies-me-geez-axe.) Would this cause a butterfly effect that would save the kingdom? Would loyal hillmen in the east, a forest in the south and elves/dwarves in the west allow Arnor to fight a one-front war against Angmar in the north? I know I only comment about Arnor, but I feel like their an underdog and I love the idea of reclaiming lost lands. Plus, I love the thought and detail you put in, I know you don't what to be a 'What if' channel, but I'd like to hear your opinion. Keep up the great work! and I for one enjoy your foul language, cause I speak the same way.
"Witnessing his army rout before his shitty Nazgul eyes". I like that description of the battle of Fornost. It basically makes the Witch King sound cocky because he had been fighting a dying realm for centuries and now he was dealing with a real army.
as a history student i really enjoy these more 'Historical' video documentaries which sort of ground tolkiens universe in a strange way seeing as its high fantasy. but yeah really enjoyed this, fantastc presentation so thanks a lot!!!
So true. I am also a history student and while there are other channels that focus on Middle Earth lore, this one just really works well with how he incorporates real world history to explain what happened during wars in Middle Earth.
Good to have ya back! I find it interesting that when carrying capacity wasnt an issue anymore (after arnor fell apart) that the remaining dunedain didnt go on a breeding frenzy and repopulate seeing as their main threat was vanquished. Because it seemed Aragorn was able to reestablish the realm in the 4th age with relative ease. Great video as always man.
I think part of this is due to Malbeth's second prophecy - about Aragorn entering the Paths of the Dead. That prophecy, and the last line of his first prophecy say that someone of the northern line would make an attempt to reunite the Dunedain, but only when the time was right. I guess that made them go into self-preservation mode, and what better way to preserve your line than to hide in the shadows. Refounding the kingdom would make them targets again.
@@DarthGandalfYTI wager there's a lot of haunting-gahering going on in Eriador during the times of the rangers, as well as some migratory herding and hidden villages, specially between Bree and Dunland and maybe north and west to the shire. That's how the Dunedain might have some population increases while keeping a low profile.
Thank you for the great video! It was well made and full of emotions. Mixed actually. It is sad that Arnor fell when it had potential. Yet it was awesome to see the free peoples uniting together in one final battle! Also I realized, that Aragorn is a descendant of the two sons of Elendil! That is awesome! Lastly, I think the Witch King should get the Employee of the Millenium award for his effective shenanigans.
Arnor is my favorite faction in LotR. It's a shame they ultimately lost. I loved the BFME 2 campaign but wished there was a good (obviously noncanon) version like the other campaigns where I could win as Arnor.
I always see Earnur as the closest thing the Tolkien Legendarium has to Robert Baratheon. Dude loved fighting. Also, I wonder what Gandalf was up to around this time. I like to think he was in Rivendell, helping shield the place against the oncoming storm.
That's a good shout. Great fighter, but not a great ruler. I wonder if Gandalf was in the Shire at this point. We know it was overrun by Angmar, so I wonder if he was helping them survive. We know he helped them during the Great Winter 800 years later. Or maybe he was hanging around Mirkwood trying to figure out who the Necromancer was considering he tries to confront him about a century later.
@@DarthGandalfYT Aye, and I think that when I mentioned Gandalf I was keeping his deeds in the Great Winter (and the Fell Winter) in mind. I wonder what kind of contact Gandalf had with Radagast etc at this point. Saruman had long returned from the East alone, and that was all he wrote for the Blue Wizards so to speak. But in terms of Mirkwood, well yes, that is a possibility. I'd have thought Radagast was enough to do that job but I'd like to think Saruman helped and was more actively familiar with Radagast in this time as colleagues. I'd also like to imagine Gandalf either helping the Rivendell Elves, showing his understanding of the vital importance of Imladris, or helping the Hobbit refugees from Arnor. It would be even cooler if Tolkien said he'd first met them in Rhudaur even before the split, and had always been curious about their peculiar knack to survive even surrounded by Wildmen and the like (though inevitably forced to leave when it got too leary and dangerous there) There had to be a moment when Gandalf encounter Halfling communities for the first time, long before the birth of Smeagol.
@@DarthGandalfYT P.S - I hasten to add that I don't see him quite as incompetent as Bobby B but generally as bombastic and war-like as him, and as keen on the thrill of fighting. Robert loved fighting more than women and booze which is to say a lot. But Earnur is seemingly professionally enamoured and obsessed with martial prowess. I see him as much more skilled and dangerous than even Aragorn in a fight. He'd be up there with the best (human) swordsmen of all time I like to speculate. Modestly George RR Martin said that Tolkien's dragons and warriors would beat the best of his hands down every time, but I think Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne would still be considered impressive fighters in say, Gondor. Maybe not as impressive as they are held to be in Westeros, but still better than most soldiers easily. Earnur would be likely as good as them if not inherently just more powerful because he is Dúnedain. There is a touch of the old magic since Ëonwë helped the first generation of Númenóreans with divine gifts and wisdom. Dúnedain are just, 'extra', as we know. Something above the norm about them. Hard to fully crossover both universes (it's like comparing HALO to W40K it's just a bit awkward and hard to do sometimes, in spite of them literally existing in different versions of the same galaxy) But the point is, it wasn't enough against Angmar which is what I think Tolkien was going for as a moral tale to remind us not to match power with power when it is impossible to win, with so much at stake. He was headstrong and the Leeroy Jenkins into Minas Morgul was something not even Robert Baratheon would do - though as Stannis warned Robert in the rebellion, he shouldn't go too far West too quickly, but Robert was too excited after winning three battles in a row and then ran into Lord Randyl Tarly and the entire Tarly and Tyrell armies in the Reach, getting themselves driven back. The only battle Robert ever lost, was the Battle of Ashford. Therefore it does have the hallmarks of what Earnur would do in making brash decisions, but riding off to a dread lair with a small group of Knights to fight the Undead is something even Bobby B would think better about. I don't think Earnur was mentally unwell I think he genuinely gambled he could take Angmar down in a fight, not realising what he was and ignoring what Glorfindel had said years before. If we knew for sure exactly how good a fighter Earnur was, with a way to compare him to someone else, then it'd be great. In a bit of a headcanon (hate that term but prefer it to 'fanfic') Earnur would actually get the better of the first half of the fight with Angmar, and even disarm him of his first two weapons, but then be brought down once he realised nothing he did could kill him. Direct fatal riposts, excellent parries and counters, strong moves dealing surely fatal blows. But nothing. Just the WK's laughter. Orcs would be bidden to interfere at the Witch-King's command and they'd begin massacring his party of knights, and then he'd fight back to back with them until the end, realising what he'd done, not just to them, or even himself, but to Gondor. The realisation would be shattering. Earnur would kill a lot of Orcs and the WK would just watch him tiring himself out and prepare to kill him. I know games have tried to imply he was captured and turned into a wraith like slave of the WK, but I'd prefer if he just died fighting. He'd be the last to fall. That would be more merciful. His bones could be in the Tower of Sorcery though as a trophy for the WK. IDEAS. SPECULATION. _HERESY_ lol
Nope. I've always thought that Arnor was pretty weak at this point. I'd put 10,000 as an absolute maximum for their army when the Witch-king invaded. I'd put the Witch-king's forces at above 50,000, including both Men and Orcs. As for Gondor, I'd think their relief force would be around about 30,000. Lindon probably contributed several thousand, and the Hobbits several hundred archers on each occasion.
@@DarthGandalfYT Yes I think it's fair to think of Angmar's force in TA 1974 to be roughly ~60,000. Almost (but not quite) as big as the Morgul Host in the War of the Ring. It has to be a pretty impressive army to take Fornost Erain, even in Arthedain's severely weakened state. I agree with your other estimates. Oh and, Rivendell's would be similar.
@@DarthGandalfYT Id think Gondor's numbers would be about 35,000 a normal Gondorian field army for the time. I think Lindon would contribute around 15,000 less than half of what they cobtributed in the last alliance (since many sailed into the west( but still a strong force for an elven kingdom. I think Arthedain would have around 5000 men defending Fornost of which most would be wiped out and around 2000 in the other parts of the kingdom (Bree and the tower hills where the Elostrion palantir was)
I think you were incorrect about the timing of the prophecy regarding ruling a great realm. It wasn’t when he was first offered the throne, but a future chance he never got. Had Arvedui not taken the elf boat he would likely have lived and the battle would likely have played out the same, meaning the future king of Gondor would still go off to fight the witch-king leaving the crown behind. At this point Arvedui would have been again able to claim the crown with no-other options. So the ‘hard’ path was staying there or going over land, where the ‘easy’ path was fleeing on the boats, which lead to his death before his next chance to rule a great realm came.
This is an interesting take which I never heard before. I still think that Gondor would have refused to crown Arvedui, after all most of its nobles looked at Arthedain with derision and Arvedui had lost his kingdom, which is a poor track record, but who knows?
I just feel sadge for Angmar for almost a thousand years Witchking united orcs and men of the north towards a single purpose (the destruction of the Dunedain, which he actually completed because his primary goal was to destroy the Northern realm of the Dunedain) but at the same time Angmarim were defeated by their most hated of enemies - Dunedain. Ironic. And all in a single series of devastating battles across the realm. Angmar was no doubt very powerfull, still it was crushed nonetheless, I guess that's what happens when half of Middle-Earth descend upon you. Just F for the Iron Home. Yes I am fan of Angmar. How did you know?
The witch king arrived in Mordor the same year the Balrog appeared in Moria. Weird. Then only 22 years later he took a massive Gondorian city and made it into a city that could drive men mad simply by being there. The witch king is the third worst dark lord which makes him the third worst being ever to live basically tied with Ungoliant
I mentioned in the video that I was going to talk about something in the comments. What I'll be talking about is the concept of "carrying capacity" and how it probably helped contribute to Arnor's downfall.
So Arnor's population probably should've grown, even if slowly, until the death of Earendur which saw the kingdom get split into three. At this point, the decline picks up, as all three kingdoms contest land with each other, inevitably contributing to the further decline of the Dunedain. The 1356 and 1409 Invasions further compound this issue, leaving Arnor in tatters. But what about after 1409? Arthedain (and Cardolan to an extent) get centuries of peace, so how come they didn't rebound?
This comes down to "carrying capacity", which is basically how big a population can a land support. There's a number of factors in this, but the most important one in this case comes down to arable land. Societies in Middle-earth are mostly agricultural, without the amazing technology and extensive logistics we have in our world. In other words, your population is "soft capped" by the amount of the amount of arable land you have and the amount of food you can grow from it. You can offset this cap by importing food (not that Arthedain had any major imports at this point), but generally, if your population is unsustainable, you run a major risk of starvation...which is bad.
Carrying capacity affected nations in our own history. For example, estimated Ottoman and Russian populations in 1600 were 24 million and 16 million, but by 1,800, the Ottomans had barely grown to 26 million, whereas Russia had boomed to 35 million. In 1900, the difference was immense, Russia (not Poland and Finland) sat at 120 million, whereas the Ottomans had only risen to 31 million. Why? Territory. Of course, there's other factors too, but as the Russian Empire expanded across Asia, they gained access to vast new territories for their settlers, and many of these places were quite fertile. As a result, population boomed, allowing Russia to become juggernaut of 19th and 20th century politics. On the other hand, Ottoman territory did not grow during these years, and much of their territory was arid or desert. As a result, their population grew slowly, and their power could not keep up with their European neighbours.
So why the fuck am I talking about this? Well, Arthedain was like the Ottoman Empire, but worse. Arthedain's territory on a map and Arthedain's territory in reality were likely completely different, especially following the 1409 Invasion. When Angmar smashed through Arthedain's frontier and threatened Fornost itself, it likely became apparent to many people that Arthedain could not protect its vast territory. This would have led to a mass exodus of peoples from Arthedain's outer territories towards the area around Fornost. In the process, these people abandon arable land (such as the Shire) in order to get better protection from their armies.
So how does this come back to carrying capacity? Well, if people are flooding into Fornost from outer territories, it puts a strain on Fornost's resources. In other words, as Arthedain's physical territory shrinks, so does their crop output, so therefore their population growth slows as well. If their population growth doesn't slow, they'll potentially suffer from starvation...which is bad. And at northern climates such as Arthedain, one bad winter could kill off a whole lot of people if the land is already close to carrying capacity.
I think that's why King Araval attempted to resettle Cardolan. Overpopulation might've been a problem at this point, and securing more arable land would allow the population to grow again without fear of starvation. The Barrow-downs were likely a good place, easily defendable and relatively close to Fornost. But then the Barrow-wights happened. And if there were overpopulation problems at this point, then the Witch-king soon solved it by going back to killing Arnorians again.
So TLDR; Arthedain did not recover between 1409-1974 because their population retreated towards their heartland. Their heartland could only support so much people, so as a result their growth stagnated, and Angmar eventually outstripped them in power again.
This leads to another question though. How the fuck did Angmar feed their people? I'll figure that one out later.
You mentioned importing food as a probable solution. The Shire could be a major food importer for Arthedain. Hobbits are excellent farmers.
Your videos are amazing but sadly, you are not. Why you find it necessary to be putrid, ignoble and profane is anyone's guess. But it is your choice, so enjoy your banquet and lots of luck to you, but my choice is not to swim through a sea of puke seeking a pearl. Besides, sick trees never grow so well, so your channel's going to wither and die anyway. No point waiting around to see it. Cheers.
@@sayagarapan1686 What is that even supposed to mean?
@@sayagarapan1686 is this a stock message you post on every creator's channel you dislike ?
Hi! Arnor Fan, back at it again!
In your "Why was Arnor so weak compared to Gondor" you list several factors, mainly farming, population and the hillman.
My question is this, you said Arnor deforested massive portions of Eriador to full their shipyards. In turn, this angered the hillman, causing them to move further inland, while some even sided from Angmar centuries later.
In contrast to this, the Kingdom of Gondor enjoyed much more peace and prosperity with their hillman. Able to slowly build up their fleet without causing any major loss to the rustic landscape.
So, if I may be so bold, what would happen if Arnor didn't deforest the southern lands of Eriador? Yes, they wouldn't be able to build up a fleet, but their relations with the hillman would be way better. (it seems like the fleet didn't do dickies-me-geez-axe.)
Would this cause a butterfly effect that would save the kingdom? Would loyal hillmen in the east, a forest in the south and elves/dwarves in the west allow Arnor to fight a one-front war against Angmar in the north?
I know I only comment about Arnor, but I feel like their an underdog and I love the idea of reclaiming lost lands. Plus, I love the thought and detail you put in, I know you don't what to be a 'What if' channel, but I'd like to hear your opinion.
Keep up the great work! and I for one enjoy your foul language, cause I speak the same way.
"Witnessing his army rout before his shitty Nazgul eyes". I like that description of the battle of Fornost. It basically makes the Witch King sound cocky because he had been fighting a dying realm for centuries and now he was dealing with a real army.
as a history student i really enjoy these more 'Historical' video documentaries which sort of ground tolkiens universe in a strange way seeing as its high fantasy. but yeah really enjoyed this, fantastc presentation so thanks a lot!!!
Right?!
So true. I am also a history student and while there are other channels that focus on Middle Earth lore, this one just really works well with how he incorporates real world history to explain what happened during wars in Middle Earth.
I have been looking forward to this
Thumbs up for the YT name.
Good to have ya back! I find it interesting that when carrying capacity wasnt an issue anymore (after arnor fell apart) that the remaining dunedain didnt go on a breeding frenzy and repopulate seeing as their main threat was vanquished. Because it seemed Aragorn was able to reestablish the realm in the 4th age with relative ease. Great video as always man.
I think part of this is due to Malbeth's second prophecy - about Aragorn entering the Paths of the Dead. That prophecy, and the last line of his first prophecy say that someone of the northern line would make an attempt to reunite the Dunedain, but only when the time was right. I guess that made them go into self-preservation mode, and what better way to preserve your line than to hide in the shadows. Refounding the kingdom would make them targets again.
@@DarthGandalfYTI wager there's a lot of haunting-gahering going on in Eriador during the times of the rangers, as well as some migratory herding and hidden villages, specially between Bree and Dunland and maybe north and west to the shire. That's how the Dunedain might have some population increases while keeping a low profile.
Thank you for the great video! It was well made and full of emotions. Mixed actually. It is sad that Arnor fell when it had potential. Yet it was awesome to see the free peoples uniting together in one final battle!
Also I realized, that Aragorn is a descendant of the two sons of Elendil! That is awesome!
Lastly, I think the Witch King should get the Employee of the Millenium award for his effective shenanigans.
Arnor is my favorite faction in LotR. It's a shame they ultimately lost. I loved the BFME 2 campaign but wished there was a good (obviously noncanon) version like the other campaigns where I could win as Arnor.
I'm still bingeing on xhristmas day!
I always see Earnur as the closest thing the Tolkien Legendarium has to Robert Baratheon. Dude loved fighting. Also, I wonder what Gandalf was up to around this time. I like to think he was in Rivendell, helping shield the place against the oncoming storm.
That's a good shout. Great fighter, but not a great ruler. I wonder if Gandalf was in the Shire at this point. We know it was overrun by Angmar, so I wonder if he was helping them survive. We know he helped them during the Great Winter 800 years later. Or maybe he was hanging around Mirkwood trying to figure out who the Necromancer was considering he tries to confront him about a century later.
@@DarthGandalfYT Aye, and I think that when I mentioned Gandalf I was keeping his deeds in the Great Winter (and the Fell Winter) in mind. I wonder what kind of contact Gandalf had with Radagast etc at this point. Saruman had long returned from the East alone, and that was all he wrote for the Blue Wizards so to speak. But in terms of Mirkwood, well yes, that is a possibility.
I'd have thought Radagast was enough to do that job but I'd like to think Saruman helped and was more actively familiar with Radagast in this time as colleagues. I'd also like to imagine Gandalf either helping the Rivendell Elves, showing his understanding of the vital importance of Imladris, or helping the Hobbit refugees from Arnor. It would be even cooler if Tolkien said he'd first met them in Rhudaur even before the split, and had always been curious about their peculiar knack to survive even surrounded by Wildmen and the like (though inevitably forced to leave when it got too leary and dangerous there) There had to be a moment when Gandalf encounter Halfling communities for the first time, long before the birth of Smeagol.
@@DarthGandalfYT P.S - I hasten to add that I don't see him quite as incompetent as Bobby B but generally as bombastic and war-like as him, and as keen on the thrill of fighting. Robert loved fighting more than women and booze which is to say a lot. But Earnur is seemingly professionally enamoured and obsessed with martial prowess. I see him as much more skilled and dangerous than even Aragorn in a fight.
He'd be up there with the best (human) swordsmen of all time I like to speculate. Modestly George RR Martin said that Tolkien's dragons and warriors would beat the best of his hands down every time, but I think Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne would still be considered impressive fighters in say, Gondor. Maybe not as impressive as they are held to be in Westeros, but still better than most soldiers easily. Earnur would be likely as good as them if not inherently just more powerful because he is Dúnedain.
There is a touch of the old magic since Ëonwë helped the first generation of Númenóreans with divine gifts and wisdom. Dúnedain are just, 'extra', as we know. Something above the norm about them. Hard to fully crossover both universes (it's like comparing HALO to W40K it's just a bit awkward and hard to do sometimes, in spite of them literally existing in different versions of the same galaxy) But the point is, it wasn't enough against Angmar which is what I think Tolkien was going for as a moral tale to remind us not to match power with power when it is impossible to win, with so much at stake.
He was headstrong and the Leeroy Jenkins into Minas Morgul was something not even Robert Baratheon would do - though as Stannis warned Robert in the rebellion, he shouldn't go too far West too quickly, but Robert was too excited after winning three battles in a row and then ran into Lord Randyl Tarly and the entire Tarly and Tyrell armies in the Reach, getting themselves driven back. The only battle Robert ever lost, was the Battle of Ashford.
Therefore it does have the hallmarks of what Earnur would do in making brash decisions, but riding off to a dread lair with a small group of Knights to fight the Undead is something even Bobby B would think better about. I don't think Earnur was mentally unwell I think he genuinely gambled he could take Angmar down in a fight, not realising what he was and ignoring what Glorfindel had said years before.
If we knew for sure exactly how good a fighter Earnur was, with a way to compare him to someone else, then it'd be great. In a bit of a headcanon (hate that term but prefer it to 'fanfic') Earnur would actually get the better of the first half of the fight with Angmar, and even disarm him of his first two weapons, but then be brought down once he realised nothing he did could kill him. Direct fatal riposts, excellent parries and counters, strong moves dealing surely fatal blows.
But nothing. Just the WK's laughter. Orcs would be bidden to interfere at the Witch-King's command and they'd begin massacring his party of knights, and then he'd fight back to back with them until the end, realising what he'd done, not just to them, or even himself, but to Gondor. The realisation would be shattering. Earnur would kill a lot of Orcs and the WK would just watch him tiring himself out and prepare to kill him. I know games have tried to imply he was captured and turned into a wraith like slave of the WK, but I'd prefer if he just died fighting. He'd be the last to fall. That would be more merciful. His bones could be in the Tower of Sorcery though as a trophy for the WK. IDEAS. SPECULATION. _HERESY_ lol
Did Tolkien give numbers about the Battle of Fornost or the Fall of Fornost?
Nope. I've always thought that Arnor was pretty weak at this point. I'd put 10,000 as an absolute maximum for their army when the Witch-king invaded. I'd put the Witch-king's forces at above 50,000, including both Men and Orcs. As for Gondor, I'd think their relief force would be around about 30,000. Lindon probably contributed several thousand, and the Hobbits several hundred archers on each occasion.
@@DarthGandalfYT Yes I think it's fair to think of Angmar's force in TA 1974 to be roughly ~60,000. Almost (but not quite) as big as the Morgul Host in the War of the Ring. It has to be a pretty impressive army to take Fornost Erain, even in Arthedain's severely weakened state. I agree with your other estimates.
Oh and, Rivendell's would be similar.
@@DarthGandalfYT Id think Gondor's numbers would be about 35,000 a normal Gondorian field army for the time. I think Lindon would contribute around 15,000 less than half of what they cobtributed in the last alliance (since many sailed into the west( but still a strong force for an elven kingdom. I think Arthedain would have around 5000 men defending Fornost of which most would be wiped out and around 2000 in the other parts of the kingdom (Bree and the tower hills where the Elostrion palantir was)
@@DarthGandalfYT and Rivendell would provably just have a couple hundred or if they were reinforced by Lothlorien, 2000-3000
I wanna know where the other nazgul where during all this
I think you were incorrect about the timing of the prophecy regarding ruling a great realm. It wasn’t when he was first offered the throne, but a future chance he never got.
Had Arvedui not taken the elf boat he would likely have lived and the battle would likely have played out the same, meaning the future king of Gondor would still go off to fight the witch-king leaving the crown behind.
At this point Arvedui would have been again able to claim the crown with no-other options.
So the ‘hard’ path was staying there or going over land, where the ‘easy’ path was fleeing on the boats, which lead to his death before his next chance to rule a great realm came.
This is an interesting take which I never heard before.
I still think that Gondor would have refused to crown Arvedui, after all most of its nobles looked at Arthedain with derision and Arvedui had lost his kingdom, which is a poor track record, but who knows?
awesome vid quite interesting enjoyed
I would love to see a series about the fall of Arnor
Where can I read The Fall of Arnor?
I just feel sadge for Angmar
for almost a thousand years Witchking united orcs and men of the north towards a single purpose (the destruction of the Dunedain, which he actually completed because his primary goal was to destroy the Northern realm of the Dunedain) but at the same time Angmarim were defeated by their most hated of enemies - Dunedain. Ironic. And all in a single series of devastating battles across the realm. Angmar was no doubt very powerfull, still it was crushed nonetheless, I guess that's what happens when half of Middle-Earth descend upon you. Just F for the Iron Home.
Yes I am fan of Angmar. How did you know?
I can't say I sympathise with a kingdom founded for the sole purpose of genocide, but if that's your thing then more power to you...or less.
@@DarthGandalfYT what if angmar survives?
@DarthGandalfYT I mean, the Enedwaith and the Hillmen would describe Arnor that way...
Cheers.
We really need a Battle of Middle Earth 2 remaster
What would happen if Earnur sent a woman and a hobbit to Minas Morgul?
Very bad things.
The witch king arrived in Mordor the same year the Balrog appeared in Moria. Weird. Then only 22 years later he took a massive Gondorian city and made it into a city that could drive men mad simply by being there. The witch king is the third worst dark lord which makes him the third worst being ever to live basically tied with Ungoliant
all my homies hate when an evil, twisted, demonic wraith challenges them to single combat and then captures and kills them instead
I literally LOLed at shitty Nazgul eyes
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Glorfindel equals orc genocide