Should A GM Change Their Campaign to Be Meat Free?! (Ep. 309)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ต.ค. 2024
- Professor Dungeonmaster analyzes a delicate situation: should a GM change their carnivorous campaign world to accommodate a vegan player? Watch until the end before commenting. His answer may surprise you!
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Honestly, as a forever DM I would always consider the concerns of my players. But any accusations from that player about “cruelty towards animals”, they would kindly receive an invite away from the game table.
I really appreciate this take. The RPG sphere focuses on the player experience too much imo. The DM also has a say, and if a player doesn't align with the game standards, they should find a game that suits them better. There is no wrong or right here - it just comes down to personal preference.
Thanks!
As a former youth pastor, the teenage church girls dismembering the monsters really speaks to the truth of your examples!
Kids. They're so weird.
I'm a vegetarian and an animal rights advocate, and two weeks ago my 4th level Drow Warlock and her party came across a group of Goblins while transporting a prisoner. There were two riding wolves and one riding a Worg. After we wiped them all off the map, I had her skin the wolves and the Worg and took the pelts for later.
Lol. You sound like my group!
did you saved the meat for emergency meals?
How can you be a vegetarian animal rights advocate while you're paying for them to die?
I was playing a goblin character and asked a DM how much meat I could get off of the dozen orcs we had just killed in a game once. He didn’t even think about the fact that the character had a whole tribe of goblins he had to worry about feeding so they didn’t become a nuisance to the local city. The vegan player sitting to my left didn’t object to it, but the DM went absolutely crazy at the notion.
Some people are just a bit too touchy about things like that.
@@akbarrmd7714 no we were transporting a prisoner along an established roadway heading to a castle so it wasn't a long trip
Then there's my campaign, which had an NPC wizard use tattoos as a spellbook. Naturally, the party wizard had the ranger acquire the spellbook after defeating the NPC.
As long as the NPC wasn’t an animal, the halfwit in the story would have had no objections.
Makes sense. Would have taken forever to copy them.
@@Newnodrogbob why are you calling them halwit?
@@wojciechniemirski1782 *halfwit. I would think it is obvious. I think the player in this story is a moron. The reason I think she is a moron is because there’s no legitimate moral framework in which murdering people is cool, but cooking and eating an animal is unacceptable.
Poor ranger!
By its very nature, D&D is a game about murdering dozens of monsters (many of them as sentient as humans) every level. It's also often done in incredibly horrific ways; imagine the suffering inflicted by a fireball, for example. The level of psychic dissonance required for someone to indulge in this fantasy and then object to a description of routine cooking is one reason to be wary of this person. That said, I think Prof. DM did a nice job of thoughtfully covering the topic.
Were you aware that you can hug and cuddle most monsters into submission? Really! Every evil creature in the world is just waiting for a little kindness to turn that frown upside down and join a roving band of pacifists on the road to nowhere. They're really just misunderstood, y'know.
The difference is that violence against magical monsters doesn't reflect the real world. Violence against animals, sexual violence, torture, and all sorts of other things may happen in a fantasy world but they also definitely happen in ours, so accepting them in fantasy can feel like accepting or condoning them in real life.
Also, pardon my pedantry, but the term you're looking for is 'cognitive dissonance', and it's not even really the right term for what you describe. It's commonly misused and I only point it out because it gets discussed a lot in my circles. 'Psychic dissonance' is something experienced by mediums, presumably.
@@thomasjohnson308 I would disagree. Using a fictional fireball to burn to death fictional sentient being still has real world underpinnings - using fire to burn to death a person is something that unfortunately happens in the real world. If I can suspend disbelief for an act of murder in a make believe game, I should be able to do it as a vegan when it comes to eating meat.
@@thomasjohnson308 How can you argue that killing a "frost wolf" doesn't reflect the real world? Does torturing a fairy reflect the real world? Enslaving an elf?
@@Tusitala1967 I can't wait for the "Caves of Cuddle" adventure!
I appreciate the well thought out and even handed response. I too was glad to see the follow up post and I am glad you included it and made it a big part of the discussion.
Glad you found this video helpful. Please share it!
I'm surprised this actually gained as much attention as it did. I remember reading the original posts on Reddit. My issue with this is not about cruelty free or veganism. My issue with this is a new player making demands of a group they just joined. This is just straight up toxic behavior, and it is irrelevant of it being about veganism, cruelty or DnD.
I've been around people like this in the real world, outside of the internet and DnD (mostly new employees at places I have worked). Once they see an opening through compromise, they will continue to push for more. They will continue to ask for more compromise.
It has nothing to do with being vegan and everything to do with a mentally ill person who is unable to separate fiction from reality, who is either virtue signaling for social credit points (whether they realize it or not) OR is trying to asset some kind of social dominance on other humans (whether they realize it or not; and this is a jerk move).
Why does it have nothing to do with veganism?
Because D&D is a game about being an "adventurer" which is better described as a murder hobo who does more murdering and needless killing for greed than the most prolific serial killer in USA history. Even the "peaceful" D&D adventurer will end up with a life story significantly more violent and murderous than the serial killers in prison today for being some of the most violent and murderous people on the planet.
The fact this player can't see the irony there is just crazy.
"I'm okay with genocide against thousands of monsters, many who are probably just minding their own business innocently as I try to rob them of all their valuables and threaten their loved ones and children, but HOW DARE YOU try to kill a pig for food!!!!!!!"
Pure mental illness.
Yup. Squeaky wheels and spineless management that caters to them have ruined EVERY office job I've ever had.
You didn't actually watch the video.
These are sociopathic narcissists.
Very well said, and exactly correct
I run an adult table where the expectation is your junk is yours to manage not everyone elses. We explore dark themes in D&D that you wouldn't want to in real life. If you require a safe space you are at the wrong table.
Yikes… I would just let the player know that ‘it’s not going to work out’ and not invite them back to the table. Too many ‘issues’.
I would not run a campaign for folks who can't distinguish between the game world and reality.
Imaginary stew should not be triggering ...
I think someone "triggered" by stew, real or imaginary, really needs aversion therapy.
@@sharper68 people who get triggered need help you can't just ignored and then expected everyone to know about the trigger.
Context is absolute king here. The emphasis is that it was a 'Friend' that joined their game. I don't think such allowances would be granted for a stranger just popping into an established game, because 'sensitivity creep' is a real thing; even how it's phrased, a cruelty-free world, sets of alarm bells. But this was clearly someone they knew, and someone they wanted at their table and it was great that the group were able to accommodate that specific player.
Yes. The choice of words in the title sets off some red flags for me too, maybe this person had pets that suffered from cruelty, maybe they work at a shelter, who knows? It could have been titled "Traumatized player asks his DM to leave animal cruelty out of their game" but the writer decided to focus on this person's veganism and titled it "Vegan demands cruelty-free D&D world" instead.
Indeed, when I ran mines of phandelver for my players as my first campaign as a gm, I had to change the tokens for spiders from the more realistic depictions in the MM, to a very cartoony one. It didn't change anything but it allowed my arachnophobic player to play through the encounters. I don't think I would have done the same for a stranger I don't know.
This is a reddit story written to accumulate reddit karma, it's all fake. Everyone knows that redditers will lie just to get upvotes and attention.
@@rafaelbordoni516 I think you are making some big assumptions there.
@@AuntieHauntieGames I'm not saying these things are, I'm saying they could be. Most context was left out, the only thing we know is that they're friends with the group. If that's the case, they know much more about the vegan than the article put in.
If a player can't tell the difference between a game and real life, they shouldn't even go near RPGs. A player who has REAL trauma can be helped, and most members of most groups will do their best to try to make him comfortable.
Someone who tries to impose their point of view, ideology or agenda on the rest of the group should not even be tolerated.
If I was playing the chef that really played it up and this happened, I'd feel like I literally can't go into cooking detail now. I'd want to box the character.
If the table is willing to, fine.
But I'd be really mad if I had to stop playing my character the way I made them (that isn't offensive in a general sense) after already putting so many sessions into them out of no where and was still expected to play.
Yeah that's basically asking the chef to only RP chopping veggies from now on.
Correct response was saying in-game: "I'll pass on the pork for *personal* reasons, which I will keep to myself unless asked about because they're personal."
Yeah. It's one thing to want to play a vegan character... it's another to insert yourself into an existing game and tell everyone else to play their characters.
I appreciate your even handed approach to this. I know, as a teacher, father, and DM, you have plenty of experience setting boundaries and learning when to hear someone out. Great job describing both the justifications and red flags in the situation.
Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it!
Biggest issue here is it was a NEW player that joined an ongoing campaign and decided to change things for everyone. There's no way I'd join a group and impose my lines (if I had any) and force everyone to reconfigure their established boundaries. If it's a new group then session zero makes sense to come to an agreement with the group.
But as a player I'd be pissed if 4 months into the campaign someone new shows up and "requests" that my chef character can no longer cook animals -- that's not cool.
That would be some narcissitic BS.
I agree, if I'm walking into an established group then I'm a guest. Much like if I'm invited to somebody's home for a party, I'm a guest and will try to be respectful of the host. If something is that abhorrent about my host I'm probably not going to show up for the next shindig. Imagine going to a cookout and asking the host to stop serving meat.
Good on them for working this out; at the same time there's that old Greek idea of Xenia that we've forgotten which holds both the host and guest to a standard of civility. Asking others to change their behavior is a stretch when one huge pillar of the game is combat. They're fine with murdering humanoids but draw the line at chickens? I could see if other players were rubbing their animal cruelty in the vegan's face but banning all talk of carnivores is a far cry from eliminating a childhood trauma or phobia.
Agreed - this situation doesn't have equal footing or priority for everyone. In this case it worked out, and the chef player was very gracious and accommodating. But I would never have pushed an established player to drastically change their character if they weren't okay with it. Sometimes a new player just won't be a good fit for an existing group, and that's okay.
Remember this isn't a pick up game or a rando from a message board. The new player was a mutual aquintance of several people at the table. I imagine that without this they'd have been invited to leave. When you value an existing relationship, this sort of accommodation is a lot easier.
They didn’t force anyone to do anything. They contacted the GM offline. The GM could have said “I don’t think this group would be good for you if that’s how you feel”. But it sounds like it was a group of friends willing to accommodate their friend.
This vegan would run away from my table screaming. Shit, my players had a debate about the ethics of eating minotaur and... well, it ended in minotaur jerky.
What do you think their stance on centaurs would be? :)
@@wardkerr2456 my bet is on centaur's criadillas
Gnomes make great sausage!
@@vincejester7558 You mean like gnomes are good chefs? ......
My characters have been eating undead hellhound jerky since 1996. Why stop now for whiny vegans? I mean, eventually the surgeon general's warning will catch up with them, but why not fiddle why Rome burns, eh? Don't eat undead meat, kids. But not because you are vegan. Because it's undead, and has certain side effects leading to undeath...
I honestly believe that healthy people should be able to discern fantasy from reality, changing your game for a single player is a bit much if they are a walk-in. I've experienced some really bad stuff in my life, but when it comes to D&D I don't bring up those personal issues and even if I come across events similar to my own experiences I do not bring it up or demand changes because I can separate reality and fantasy. I honestly draw the line at people demanding changes especially when I spend hours creating worlds and potential stories for a group of people.
Problem is that there aren't many mentally healthy people out and about these days.
@@JohnDretired I feel its important to push our friends and loved ones toward being healthier more self aware, and ultimately happier people. gently of course, you can't force people to change that only results in resentment.
Well said. We all have dark shit. I'm a big fan of confronting the things that bother me to defuse them. I was scared to walk through the graveyard when I was a kid, so I would make myself walk through the graveyard every night until it didn't bother me any more. I always assumed most people would want to be like that and stand up to the things which unnerve them. I always thought it was something to strive for. That notion seems to have been abandoned by society these days.
If people have some real trauma and it's simple enough to avoid triggering it, I don't have an issue with that. That being said, they really should be working to get to a place where they can handle that stuff and aren't a burden to other people. There's a difference between being inclusive and sensitive to others and outright coddling immature people. We all have our issues and faults, but we should try our best to overcome them, not use as crutches to beat other people with.
They are not healthy people. They're on Reddit.
This was so well thought out! I appreciate that you showed both sides of the situation but ultimately just came down to the simple conclusion of "be respectful and communicate" whether you're a player or DM. That's missing in most of these "problem table" stories.
I’d typically go to “it’s just fantasy, they should find a new group if”, but I know some players can be over the top with gore and cruelty. Context matters! I hope it all works out for them. As for my group, I want everyone to have a good time and not leave game night with negative vibes.
I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I 100% mean this: how about trying Star Trek Adventures? Meat is replicated, it was never an animal, and Starfleet is a very benevolent organization overall.
I loved GURPS Prime Directive so this has a second from me, though there’s going to be that one player who wants to be a Klingon.
He’s not the problem, the Ferengi player is almost always the problem.
''Starfleet is a very benevolent organization overall'' hahahahhaAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I personally think that starting a new TTRPG more suited to the requirements is the best solution in this case. So I agree with you.
@@reorseX
" *Starfleet is a very benevolent organization overall* "
In comparison to the bulk of powerful factions within the Star Trek Universe, his statement is correct.
2 examples :
The Klingons would go Genghis Khan on the universe, which involves the most brutal of might makes right/Us vs Them base tribal conquests.
The Romulans : See a certain 1940s German political faction as an example. Needless to say it would involve the most _civilized_ of terrors like a huge network of prison camps
This fix is gonna blow up when the player realizes that the fantasy creatures in that world are just like the animals in ours and should have the same rights in theory.
A fictional dog is as much fictional as the fictional baby unicorn...
Dude, have you tried Unicorn Meat🥩? It's freakin' delicious!
@@cowpercoles1194 Unicorn burgers are huge, it makes them a little hard to eat but I like how restaurants stab the horn through the burger to hold it together.
New players often play a version of themselves. Mature players often play characters that are as far from themselves as their imaginations and the GM allows.
this is a good point!
WELL said
This is so hilarious to me due to the extreme irony.
The vegan player is bothered by the idea of another player killing fictional animals for fictional food. While the entire party are murder hobo's who kill for a living. D&D 5e is literally a combat simulator designed no differently than Call of Duty or some other genocidal mass murder machine game.
A single D&D adventurer will be more sociopathic and murderous than the most prolific serial killer ever caught in the USA. Yet eating fictional animals is where they draw the line? Wtf.
This is such a uniquely American thing IMV too. A combination of someone who values the lives of animals but lives in a culture that has normalized mass murder and genocide as a heroic venture (in both gaming and culture). The irony is so thick, but I guarantee the Vegan player doesn't see it at all.
IMV this reeks of the vegan player being mentally ill (can't separate fiction from reality) or the vegan player is only vegan due to a fad (which explains the virtue signaling here and desire to asset social dominance over other players for personal pleasure).
Why the heck would you play a game where you mass murder living creatures, most of who are probably innocent, and do it for money (treasure) like a greedy capitalist sociopathic mercenary, and also constantly have to murder fellow humanoids (BANDITS! Oh noes!), but then draw the line on eating pigs or cows...lmfao wtf.
@@nowayjosedaniel you sure did a lot of heavy lifting with your assumptions here pal.
Makes me think of the Combat wheelchair.
I was dying to hear what Deathbringer had to say about all this. He didn't disappoint
I want details on Deathbringer's technique! 😁
Well said. Communication is key to make the game table a welcoming place for everyone. It costs nothing to be courteous to other players. The trust you gain when a player knows they’re going to be treated with respect at your table pays dividends in engagement.
I'm a vegan and ran a Pathfinder game with 6 vegan players. All of their characters were omnivores because that's what made sense for the setting. We just didn't dwell on it. What worries me is this can feed into the stereotype of vegans being preachy and irrational. Which does not help our cause.
Can it? The vegan player approached the GM and apparently solved the whole thing diplomatically, with everyone happy. The only people who'll read it as a tale of zealotry are probably already convinced vegans are a disgusting stupid bunch.
100%. With that being said, it's great that the player spoke up and the players with GM worked around the trigger. This is a supportive team.
Irrational is okay, as long as you are not preachy
Well said -- but you end with the word "cause" - which in itself by definition is preachy -- and thus furthering the stereotype. -- "lifestyle" is better --
Great point. I'm friends with some great people who are vegans, and I've been frustrated seeing this case passed around (usually in clickbaity ways). I'm relieved it was resolved congenially.
Truth is stranger than fiction these days. I suddenly feel a wave of appreciation for my players...
These kinds of things are the reason why I started interviewing any prospective players before ever accepting them into my games. We meet up for a little socialization, during the course of which I lightly touch upon some topics that tend to force MODERN zealous believers to reveal themselves. If any hint of the aforementioned zealotry is present, they never make it into my game.
....and before someone attempts to come in and make some " well your game doesn't really matter " snipe, I get PAID to run my games. I get paid because my games are good, that matters to the people paying and to me because I run games well enough to get paid.
@@thehydra4007 When I begin running a campaign, I tell my prospective players that if it can happen in a Stephen King novel, or a George R.R. Martin novel, it can happen in my game. If it can happen on the 6 o'clock evening news, it can happen in my game. Sanitized versions of stories in fiction and in gaming just don't interest me for long. Maybe a one shot for kids--but I couldn't hang out there for very long. I'm just not there anymore, and haven't been in a long while. I want my games to feel like HBO's Rome, or Game of Thrones, 13th Warrior. When I think of describing the effects of dragon breath, I try to capture what being caught in a napalm drop in Vietnam must have been like. I have my anti-paladin modeled on Ted Bundy, for instance.
So if a vegan said something like this to me, where they were uncomfortable with animals being eaten in the game--I wouldn't be upset with them, but I would respectfully state where I'm coming from. As I'm a history enthusiast, actual historical representation is very important to the immersion and interest for me as a DM. In an agrarian 5th-17th century style of world, people have a very different relationship to animals than they do today, and that's part of the feel I'm really trying to capture in my world. Animals are vital for day to day survival. They are beasts of burden and food sources, hunting partners, and vehicles and weapons of war. And gently as possible, I would say perhaps I am not the right DM for them. It's not personal--it's just a bad fit.
You think this story is true?
@@dane3038 I suspect so.
@@dane3038 Probably not. Feels like the kind of thing written to get attention. But it could be. There really are people like that.
As a DM I find it difficult to accommodate people who cannot separate fantasy from reality. I also don't curb content based on trauma or experience, because good drama comes from experiences we can all understand. On the other hand, I don't go NC-17 in my games and sexual situations are always "fade to black." But someone joining in and asking for changes bothers me as well, this is how it was before you joined and you joined anyway.
Also, playing make believe with traumatic subject matter can actually help people de-catastrophize these experiences. Exposure therapy is also good to overcome phobias as well.
@@cowpercoles1194 Sure, but let’s be honest: exposure therapy requires a safe environment and a competent medical professional, and the typical gaming group is neither of those.
Okay, but why do you make that distinction for NC-17? Everyone around the table knows that it's not a real sexual situation but just a fantasy. What is your reasoning behind censoring sexual content while everything else is a-okay? Your players can separate fantasy from reality after all.
@@tuomasronnberg5244 Probably just personal comfort. Different social mores around sex vs violence. I'm sure there are groups that go the other way - sex is fine, violence is not, for example.
Maybe you are a bad dm? It is literally your job as dm to accommodate your players
I actually saw and commented on the original Reddit posts. There was no compromise, the Vegan got everything they wanted. The rest of the group even had to change what snacks they ate at the sessions.
If you give a mouse a cookie…
Not surprising.
I just read that reddit post and can only disagree. It really does not sound like what you make it out to be.
If someone attempts to dictate what I cannot eat at the table I would agree on the condition that I got to dictate what they had to eat at the table. So I would end up eating carrot sticks and the vegan would have to eat beef jerky.
You can't get rid of the Karens.
But you can boot them from your game
:)
I hope the group resolved it peacefully, but here is another problem I am not seeing mentioned in the comments, what if the chef PC feeled it was big part of his character? Fantasy recipes are fine, but I image describing actual recipes is a cool part to role-playing your PC.
It is a red flag to play a fantasy role-play game if you cannot separate fantasy from reality as an adult
I don't think it's an issue of separating fantasy from roleplay. It's more that you'd want your games to be enjoyable to the players involved. Its more understandable for topics of torture, graphic sex, child endangerment.
Just because I don't enjoy horror movies doesn't mean I can't separate movies from realities. I'd just rather watch an action flick.
I would want my players to tell me if they felt uncomfortable with my game instead of them deciding to drop the game out of the blue. If a random player walked through the door and demanded XY&Z be changed, I would probably show them the door.
@@kotor610 But would it right for you to demand an action flick when everyone else is wanting to see an old Hammer Horror film?
@@OriginalNeomoon Tell me you didn't watch the video without saying you didn't watch the video.
@@usermammal I wasn't responding to the video I was responding to Joseph's comment. Huge difference between the two things. Specifically I was responding to his second paragraph.
So maybe show me you don't understand how comment sections work without saying you don't know how comment sections work.
Agreed. I'm a far-left pacifist, but I like playing wargames, particularly the German side in WWII games. That said, I still wouldn't be a dick about it. If I knew one of my players had a problem with someone, I certainly wouldn't deliberately include that in a game. But there needs to be a give and take. As a player, I need to have something of a thick skin and not let everything that would offend my 21st-century middle-America standards infect my game persona. For example, I would never kill orcs in real life, unless it was absolutely in self-defense, but in game? Ki!! those mother-effers!
There is a great game called "Monster Care Squad". In the game you diagnose and heal sick monsters. A game like that, or borrowing the idea for a D&D campaign, may be a great alternative to a standard D&D game.
Cool idea!
This sounds like a fun idea
There seems to be a fair amount of folks commenting here who seem totally unaware that non violent or conflict light RPGs exist.
I am probably going to steal this for my first game I run for my kids, this is brilliant.
What a stupid game. How old is the intended players, kindergarten? I play "clean" games, but that only goes so far. Some types of games have specific reasons for existing or they are not worth having.
This is why you have a session Zero, where you document what are "triggers" and off the table. Before a new player joins a campaign I give them a copy of the session zero notes. If a new player has any concerns, questions, requests, If the current group is good, then no harm no foul. If not then I advise the new player that happy to run a different Campaign with players than would agree to a new session zero.
Yikes… Escapism means you can fly, cast fireballs, or eat stew. I would just let the player know that ‘it’s not going to work out’ and not invite them back to the table. Too many ‘issues’😊.
Yeah but i have seen enough times that the stew was people so we joke about only eating things that are identifiable
I ran a doppleganger scenario once where every few rounds the dopplegangers would swap who they replaced of the party members, and I had the players of that character playing their own dopple. This only works with mature players who don't want to give up the secret and metagame, but it was very intense and interesting. At some point our player with anxiety messaged me; she really loved the scenario and how cool it was for the story, but needed a breather to calm down bc it was stressful. That's not an issue; we took a 10 minute break for snacks, bathroom, etc and then got back to having fun.
Wow! What a cool concept!
I know this shouldn't bother me and it makes me a bad person for making this comment, but I can't stand this stuff. I don't mean to marginalize people's feelings and I understand anxiety is a real mental disorder that people can't control, but I have never understood anyone who has ever gotten anxiety from playing a game.
It's a game. They're meant to be fun. Not always relaxing in the moment, but the end result should result in relaxation (alleviation of stress through enjoyment). Not anxiety inducing.
This has less to do with your specific comment and more to do with what I read on "D&D Twitter" which seems to be extreme levels of anxiety surrounding a game.
I understand though 1000% if you replaced anxiety with STRESS though. Some games are so intense and difficult, that it can become very stressful. But that's good stress. That's the kind of stress you WANT to have in your life. Not all stress is bad. Just like how not all anxiety is bad. (Anxiety is supposed to be a good thing that helps protect you.)
Anyways yes, I know this makes me a bad person. It's just true. I'm a bad person who has trouble dealing with irrational mental illness. I don't understand how someone can get anxious and negatively stressed playing a game.
@@nowayjosedaniel Yours is a weird take. You say you understand anxiety to be a real mental disorder and don't mean to marginalize it, yet you call it an "irrational mental illness" that you just can't understand. Mental disorders aren't rational. No one sits down and decides they're going to get extremely anxious when they participate in RPG sessions or any kind of social interactions for that matter.
That actually sounds fun. I can see how it can be stressful, but it's in a good way. It's intense, and although it may not be for everyone, it's not offending anyone.
@Carter Gabriel Some people with anxiety issues go into full break down when they see a fire, are around crowds or even in an elevator as it descends. Because you don't understand it (heck, I don't either) doesn't make it an irrational mental illness. Kudos to the individual that wanted to take a break, but got right back into it.
I'm running a game where everyone started out as a slave. Their initial questgiver was their owner. In my initial campaign survey, I mentioned that this will me a main feature of the campaign. No one minded. A few players actually really got into their characters. The first quest was survive (funnel quest) and the 2nd was to get enough cash to buy their own freedom.
Its also a mixed group. We range in ages 15 to 45, and we all have shared media values, so we keep the descriptions of blood and gore much lower. Generally everything is PG-13, which I prefer.
I did something similar with people living under rule
YET EVERYONE WHO JOINED AND TOOK ALL THIS TIME TO GO OVER CHARACTERS AND SETTING... WERE UPSET OVER BEING OPPRESSED BY TYRANTS IN A REBELLION CAMPAIGN
@@elgatochurro Were they upset and wanted to work to fix the country, or were they upset at you for making a campaign like that? There's a difference between being mad at the characters and being mad at the director.
Well that's one way to avoid the dreaded pre-game equipment purchases.
@@krinkrin5982 THEY were the ones who saw my ad which very clearly stated "you have been annexed and are under rule"
Then wasted my time asking about it just to say "oh I'm oppressed irl"
@@DM_Curtis Suddenly the usual Elder Scrolls starts make a lot more sense lol
Now i have to know how the reviled society players deal with the dogs
Poison. A dog lover and animal rights activist killed the dogs.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 not even a little bit disappointed
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 ah the things we do in fiction we would never do in reality. hell, we may do in fiction to demonstrate the harshness of the reality.
I think some people like to use their new found power called "that's offensive to me" as if it were a wish spell.
Spell: I'm Offended
Level: Cantrip
Casting time: 1 action
Area of Effect: 30ft circle within hearing distance
Components: V
Duration: 1 day
School: Annoyancy
Saving throw: Wisdom
Damage: 1d4 Psychic
You loudly declare your feelings of being offended and why you are offended. All creatures within 30ft must then make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC. On a failure the target creature must do all it can to remove the source of offence and placate the caster. On a success the creature ignores the remark and is immune from the effects of this spell for 1 day. If the saving throw is a natural 20 the target creature becomes hostile towards the caster and attempts to offend them even more.
I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I don't even know where to begin. Instead, I will just say thank you for our content and keep up the great work.
Thanks!
Na, I think it is a ridiculous ask. I would politely invite them to find another game and wish them well. It's a very different story if they are an existing player in the group at the start of the campaign.
The deal is this whole sort of thing is a slippery slope. Someone joined your game who was bullied, or got a fight, or was picked on or was sexually assaulted.
Now they're asked is that there be no physical aggression. I use extreme example to make a point.
It is a game. About killing monsters clucking treasure and the hijinks that go along the way.
It is a game that is not for everyone. If it's not your jam, find a different game.
It is not a mental health counselor's session and tool for working out someone's issues.
So, are you saying players can't request subjects be avoided for their own enjoyment of the game?
Also, no, making up an extreme example makes no point. You made it up.
@@quesoblanco444 At my table, you can make a REASONABLE request, but most requests like this are not reasonable. No killing/eating animals is NOT a reasonable request. It requires every other character to either act as vegans or avoid the topic of food/hunting, completely removes beasts as a monster, imposes restrictions on every NPC, alters nearly any kitchen/tavern scene, and (in the case of this video) completely hinders the already established RP of an already established player.
If you wanted to avoid explicit sex, overly gruesome descriptions, or the like, that is fine (for most campaigns). Those are things that are not common to see and many would avoid. They are what would determine the rating of a movie or video game. That is not to say I would remove those things from my world, you would simply not get the description. However, if I was running a gritty, splatter campaign, the answer would obviously be "no."
If you request no detailed descriptions of animals being cooked...maybe, but that is a large request because 99% of all people cook animals and should never be controversial. Children watch their mothers cook chicken or beef all of the time. If I have players that want to hunt or cook meat, then the answer will be "sorry, but that imposes on the other players. If you cannot handle it, find another table."
If you request no killing/eating of animals, the answer will always be "no, and you should probably find another table." I will not alter the way MY world works just to satisfy your sense of virtue.
In all honesty, players should ask about these things BEFORE they even attempt to join a game. It is the height of entitlement to walk into an ongoing campaign and then ask everyone to change how they play in order to suit you.
@@dannik9932 The players request in this video was not "No killing/eating animals".
Did you watch the video?
@@quesoblanco444 yes I did, and the player had problems with descriptions of meat stew and the state of a neglected dog. Did you watch the video?
Ye gods, the entitlement and tenderness of some people never ceases to amaze me.
I'm so glad I'm in the OSR. This is not about morals or ethics it's about a need to control and influence others.
You're describing Twitter.
@@Radiotomb it's true for everything 'social' now
Exactly.
I thought OSR was about avoiding die rolls through creative solutions. Die rolls mean death in OSR.
@@josephbradshaw6985 I disagree with that. I stated what OSR is about in my personal opinion and experience. The issue was about finding a common ground to include a new player in the game. That is not even an RPG problem, that is what happens every time a group is joined by someone new.
I am quite a bit older than the folks in my group. I had a meaningful session zero where we all shared our feelings about things. I have worked with teens and preteens for many years, so I think I'm a little more understanding than many my age. This would still be a deal breaker.
At the start of a campaign I'll do my best to make REASONABLE accommodation, later on though requests will be weigh out how much it may impact the story and how much extra work those request make for me
I think there are two types of players. There are those who want a "fantasy escape" which mostly involves power fantasies, and to play in a space that is the opposite of how they perceive the world they live in. TTRPGs are something akin to therapy for that type of player. Then there are players who want to have an adventure, which often involves danger, stress, pain, violence, horror, and death. I've played with both, and I don't think those two types of players are meant to mix. They don't want or like the same things, and will only step on each other's fun.
Though one would think power fantasies would have a strong link to cruelty almost inherent in them. Power over others wielded with maturity and restraint rarely figures in fantasies.
I personally find it very cathartic to go through struggle within the confines of a TTRPG I find it hard to understand what can be gained emotionally that is helpful through dominating power fantasies. Personally I find that sort of play only indulges egos and certain ify behavior. thats just a blanket observation on my part though I understand there will always be inbetween cases.
@@subotai358 There's a reason why Captain America is so popular.
@@subotai358
The overwhelming majority of the tabletop community does not understand that fictional fantasy worlds to not exist to be progressively turned into some pseudo-fictional facsimile of the modern (tear 2023) "west". They pollute their characters and games with a constant string pulling effort to shape said fantasy worlds into something approval worthy of the modern real world.
When Christians cant step away from their beliefs in a game of D&d, its " lol pathetic ", when they cant do it with their real world ideology well ' _its legit_ '.
Which also gives you a window glimpse into their personal depth and understanding or morality in earnest, in that they dont think right/wrong are universal, but are dependent on if its their preferred ideology or some icky Christian (of which I am not).
Well handled, Professor. One of my table rules is from the Wyld Stallions, "Be excellent to each other."
I think it was Lincoln who originally said that.
Party on dudes.
@@steveholmes11 which is why he was the best prez
"I'm sensitive about x in fiction" is a red flag in my circle let alone my game group.
Suspension of disbelief is a default, not an ideal.
I find people that lack this ability tend to be obnoxious at best & often far worse interpersonally.
Do you have any limits though? E.g would you run a campaign that centred on child abuse? I’m not comparing eating animals to child abuse obviously but there must be some topics you wouldn’t want in a roleplay game.
@@nodtothestrange1008 It's one thing to "center" the campaign entirely around child abuse, and another to have child abuse be something that can be referenced in the game world, even indirectly. If "I'm sensitive about x in fiction" actually means *ban* this topic, then I wouldn't be on board for that. It's not cool to do that without everyone at the table getting a say. People who want to ban subject matter are sometimes emotionally unstable, and will take inclusion of said subject matter, even if accidental as a personal attack, even if no harm was intended. That's a red flag that this person is not ready to play games of (mostly harmless) make-believe.
@@nodtothestrange1008 There is an obvious problem that Dungeons and Dragons is an RPG that is centered on fantasy violence. So joining a Dungeons and Dragons game and requesting that violence be curtailed for your vegan beliefs is a bit like joining Call of Cthulhu and requesting that the occult be curtailed for your religious beliefs. It is a red flag because honestly the individual is playing a game that is not for them, and the compromise is probably not over.
@@nodtothestrange1008 I am sort of echoing what's already been said--I don't think a campaign that centered on child abuse would last very long unless it had vast slavery network involved and the characters were busting up the slavery ring. That might have enduring story possibilities. If your players are down with that, it might actually be interesting, where the characters are compelled to found an orphanage or something of the like, where they have to do something with all the children they rescue. Aside from that, in my experience children are often collateral damage--say a town is overrun by orcs where the males above the age of 9 are killed and who ever survives are taken as slaves---yes, children will be swept up in abuse of their orcish owners. It's just the logical consequences of that situation.
A lot of it depends on the situations you have in mind--all of which you need to be mindful about. This really takes some thought, because regardless of how shallow or deep you want to go, almost every gaming table is exploring the problem and nature of evil.
How evil is your evil? What logical limits if any does it have? Does this change the closer you get to demonic forces (anything from the lower planes) with completely inhuman agendas? When you watch movies like the Exorcist or the Conjuring, what do you see? What are the limits there? In IT, by SK, what limits did he place on Pennywise, or in Salem's Lot, what was too far for Kurt Barlow? How does that change for beings in the prime material plane who are under demonic influences or who were spawned by those demonic forces as part of their origins?
When Twilight (cough, sputter, cough, sputter, gag) was the rage among tweens, my niece asked me if I was team Edward or team Jacob. I told her I was team Barlow and Straker, and team Fanning (test subject zero) from the Passage. And as I have both on audible, I played her excerpts from both books. She politely told me these were not the kinds of vampires she wanted to encounter. I agreed with her. You wouldn't want to know either of them. We also agreed that for her they were too scary, and for me, that's what made them fun to read about.
If you had to give your game a rating and a feel for what you're doing, would it be PG, PG-13, or R for adult audiences ages 17 and above? And are there content advisories, so it might be R for violence but other areas make you uncomfortable exploring--this is really up to you, and there's no advice anyone can give you, myself included. The only thing I can do is to encourage you to think deeply and find what your comfort zone is as a DM.
My game is very adult themed, and it's not for everyone. I'm okay with that.
@@andrewlustfield6079 You could easily build an enduring campaign around the concept! Maybe the countryside is overrun with unruly, feral children which the PCs must drive off or exterminate! But as they roam the woods clearing out nests of rabid children, they discover that the attacks are being coordinated by a master child… a master child _with a plan._
Dam I feel bad for many Roleplaying gamers out there who can't play fantasy or Scifi games because others can't let the real world go. As long as the games don't go to crazy let everyone in the game have their fun without cutting their balls off lol.
My kids watch a lot of Black Dice Society... there is always a warning that it is a Gothic horror based scenario.
I am an 11 year combat veteran... two tours in lraq , l attend games with combat and deaths in combat. I was only effected once it was a super hero Crisis protocol type game where the national guard that was called out to
Capture the Mutants . The Humvees were engulfed in flames killing all the soldiers inside . I was the only player that had those experiences , despite my discomfort, a lot of time was put in coming up with the scenario. And the explosion was the result of a dice roll. Not an intentional act by the Dm or opposing players. If these events are too much , mention it and realize it is just a game. In the end it is all just a game
I totally disagree. This obsession with sharing trauma and demanding that others care for your trauma is exhausting. It’s rude. We are not required to be someone else’s psychotherapist. We are there to play a game of killing imaginary monsters and taking their stuff, and if you don’t like the game, don’t play it.
Please understand the difference between a player with a history including a specific trauma and a player with a broad list of rules they seek to impose on others.
I would say : Wow!! This is a terrific set-up for a game. If you invite me to this game of yours, I AM IN.
But for now, there is another game going on, do you still want to play ?
..
The moral :
If you want some specific funs
You gotta do it yourself
And I am ALL IN to participate !!!
..
You rock Professor!
You are guiding me into relflexions and toughts that would maybe never emerge in my mind.
Thank you so much, straight from first row !
Man, some people are incredibly fragile. I have no idea how they navigate a world that is infinitely more cruel than any D&D campaign.
They’re only as fragile as the gamers who complain about politics entering their escapist games.
See, everyone has something they’re sensitive about. So don’t judge, live and let live and enjoy what you enjoy.
@@ThreeFortyThree Wrong. Judge! Judge others. We need to judge others to save ourselves from emotional vampires, from flakes, liars, charlatans, rapists, abusers, etc. etc. etc. Don't be fooled by niceness; Always continue to judge others!
@@fex144 I typically don't condone judgement in this way but everybody that complains about about anything entering their escapist game certainly do. Those interactions are seriously one sided and those toxic gamers never see themselves doing exactly what they complain others are doing. :sigh:
I think Prof did a good job of laying out why this is not simple a matter of "people being fragile".
@@bluedotdinosaur No it is about demanding control about what other people are doing. It is bullying.
a request like this would have me poliety tell them that this isn't the table for them.
and I have vegan players... they understand the difference between reality and pretend.
that understanding is paramount to sitting at the table.
your response as always is well measured and spoken Prof. DM.
"The needs of the one out-way the needs of the many." - Social Media proverb.
Heh. That was one of the milestones my son hit early: can tell the difference between pretend and reality. He was 3 when he started saying things like "my pretend frend Ann is going to drive her pretend car to the pretend store".
If you are 20 and still not there, there are bigger issues.
I reckon that any animal cruelty that happens to occur/be described in your games will course your vegan players discomfort. Is it enough to make a request for it to change? Clearly not but just because somethings pretend doesn’t mean it’s not triggering
Compromises are ok to a certain extent. I read about a game that one of the players was unconfortable with the idea of DnD having many gods, as in his religion there is only one true God. He couldn´t see the difference between fantasy and reality, and eventually he was expelled from the game.
I think in alot of cases the problem is that people try to force their believes onto others, pretending the opposite would make them uncomfortable
I find that this sort of behaviour can be used for bullying.
Two players don't like each other and then start fighting each other by inhibiting each other's fun. I one time had a player who was playing a poacher character and this was stated in session zero. Halfway through the game this poacher player got into an argument with another player and suddenly that player doesn't like the idea of poaching animals and wants that person to change their character.
It is really easy to abuse kindness and I feel like we should all be aware of that.
Sometimes the worst thing a zoomer can possibly imagine is having their fun inhibited. It's their version of getting punched in the face.
Just. Talk. To. Your. Group.
It's that easy. This group did the right thing and worked together!
Professor you absolutely nailed the discussion as usual. Thanks for all your hard work!
You don't go up to the stage of a rock concert and tell them to turn down the music. Sorry.
@@needmorecowbell6895 You have a point, you don't go to a con and tell the people at the Call of Cthulhu tabel to run a game Apocalypse World, but if you go to a friends house, or are a guest at someone's house, it is fair to ask them to lower the volume if the music is too loud.
@@epimetrius7348 Correct, so there's some nuisance at work here. There's a code of conduct at work or school, a code of conduct in public, and a code of conduct among close friends. You better know the DM pretty well before you approach them about a cruelty free game.
I am happy the table was able to come to a happy place. I fear your second DM advisor was correct and additional demands will follow. For many people it is less about accommodation and more about power. Perhaps it is a generational thing but I feel I would have pointed a greasy chicken wing at them and bid them farewell.
I have noticed that old folks tend to be much more sensitive than young people...
So happy to see a thoughtful game-related topic addressed. I am reminded why I originally subscribed to your channel and enjoy your game-related content.
Thanks. I got of crap from some folks who said it WASN'T game related. So I;'m glad people found it useful.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I'll second what @average citizen said. This was a really wonderful topic in line with one of MCDM's "Running the Game" videos. I think the inflamatory "click-bait" title will prevent your excellent message from reaching a broader audience.
@@pez5767 I don’t think the title was click bait. I thought it was pretty accurate to the central issue of the video.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 it’s definitely game related. The game is a social experience
Session zero helps in this a lot! But as a DM, it raises red flags if a player starts demanding things….that’s not a conversation starter so much as an opening shot in a fight! There are many such demands I just wouldn’t go along with….”can we have a campaign where there’s no chance of setbacks, we never lose, and our PCs can’t die, no matter what they do?” Reasonable discussions are great! But demands never are!
So then your character will not be
Riding a horse?
Killing any dire monsters?
Wearing leather armor?
Eating Butter, eggs, or the stew at the inn?
Sleeping on a feather pillow?
Oh my those spell components.
No feathers for your arrows then?
Oh those whale oil lamps have to go
Oh man that iron was mined using donkeys, guess you can not have a sword or armor
Now do not go hurting those giant spiders/ants/worms/insects/ lizards/birds/fish/mammals/
Yep. Well put. Veganism is a privilege of modernity. Ironically, not even popular in Hindu India where vegetarianism is rife.
A world with sentient trees and rocks finishes the discussion as well. There is nothing that doesn’t think. So you must adapt or die.
Phantom Steed
Animal Friendship/Charm Monster
Underdark Mushroom Leather
Vegetables/Create Food
Straw pillows (actually, no pillow)
Wooden Wand spell focus
Arrows are for cowards anyway
Vegetable oil burns fine
Ethically sourced metals
Animal Friendship (again)
Vegan DND is absolutely doable and even fun for some people!
@@lukec6721 charm monster=make monster do something it does not want to do
the challneg ahead of your charcter is to survive in a world that is not vegan and has no idea how to be vegan. Do you know how long you would survive in a typical D&D setting with the I wont kilkl/eat meet
@@TheOGGMsAdventures I think I was clear with the vegetables part, but grain lasts way longer and it's all most peasants could afford to eat anyway in the medieval fantasy land you adore. I like a game with a challenge in it bro
@@lukec6721 the problem is you cam into my game wich had an established rule sett and physics that everyone agreed on at session 0 and demanded we change-oh no we cant kill those wolves that are eating the villagers-
Yes, I would include the Hellhound
I have never made a change in the story of a game that I was running because a player decided that they had a problem with something if they have a problem it is up to them to leave not for me to make any form of changes
I know it's easy to take the mickey out of this, but I genuinely love it as a thought provoking video. Never would I think to account for stuff like that, but it could make a difference.
Might even be fun throwing some Peta Druids in there like WoW did once
Thanks. I thought it was interesting. Not just click-bait.
Yes, I would still include a snarling hell hound.
I do, however, have a catalog of settings. So when we get together preferences get addressed, if you're hopping in midway whoever brought you in should have informed you imo.
To this, having seen people be evaporated by IEDs in Iraq I don't ask people to not make fantasy bombs in our fantasy games. So, I don't get it I guess.
Préface: I'm a good DM and a problem player. My last character was a mute slave cause I kept giving lip to the quest givers (they had it coming)
The best place to confront a fear is a safe setting. I would argue that D&D is a great place to say "to hell with your trigger warning" and just encounter something you're uncomfortable with. I've had a nightmare where I dreamt of a combat encounter my DM had run, and I gotta say that was some of the best D&D I ever did play.
Scare me, make me depressed, make me cry. Better it happen when it doesn't matter so I can gain a thicker skin. If I bitch about the game it's going to be because the DMPC had 4 invisible assasins all of whom were higher level than the party. Not that the troll ripped me in half, that's fine.
You would be most welcome at my table, Leone.
Yes! That!
So tired of trigger warnings for literally EVERYTHING these days. People need to grow some thicker skin, makes life a lot easier.
@@EmeraldVideosNL While I agree there's too many trigger warnings in our world today, growing some thicker skin should not be for my benefit but for the benefit of the person who currently has a "thinner skin". Clearly these people are not taking advantage of therapy or their therapist sucks. I honestly feel bad for them because they'll never get better if their solution involves trigger warnings and avoidance.
@@0ptikGhost Well said!
I would have told her that I found her request offensive and politely asked her to move on or leave the group.
"Please let me use my preferred lifestyle restrictions, world view, and sensitivities to control your players and game world. Thanks a bunch, less saintly than I person!". Sorry I'm playing a Ranger Hunter who provides meat to struggling villages during the Winter. No I won't change that to foraging for plant based diet items. I use a bow. I am good with a bow. I didn't get that way by shooting plants.
@@Tusitala1967 Amen and Huzzah!
I saw that Reddit post, but not the follow up. I was of two kinds as I read the post.
My first was "This is a good story, but it didn't happen. Or at least not exactly as described. It's a karma farm post. It's clearly designed to trigger a response. There's an obvious villain with inflammatory dialogue and an onerous request"
My second thought was pretty much what you outlined here, assuming that the event actually occurred.
O:35 As a GM the only answer to that is to suggest finding another group to play with because my campaigns are drama-free.
This is why a session 0 is so important, that way you can hash out details about game play, play styles, and limits that the players or even GM/DM might have. Everyone will know what to expect, and not have something sneak up on them.
Not every table is fit for every player, sometime it's best to find this out early on than much later in the campaign.
And in this case, why pre-screening new players is really important. I always pre-screen a player before they're added to a group because there are so many ways there might not be a good fit (not just from values like this situation).
While in theory it's fine as long as everyone is cool with it, there is such a thing as people being too sensitive. I say this as a person who was homeshchooled and met people so sheltered they can't function in real life, though this is pretty rare. So you may not always be doing someone a favor even if everyone is okay with it. Something to consider when playing especially with younger people. They may actually need some therapy for those issues or some tough love at times from people they trust. And as you said, it may not be a good fit and you also don't have to play with them.
It seems most people have never been punched right in the face these days.
Now I wanna know what baby unicorn tastes like, but I would hate to offend anyone by comparing the flavor to an animal in the real world...😜
the unicorn icecream i ate taste like cake frosting
Which is why you should only ever compare it to human meat. :p
Love some uni-corn on the cob.
Dan hit it on the head,
As weird as it might sound to some people, DM and players resolved this issue the way they should. They sat down and discussed it and came to solutions that they all could abide by. This is what you are supposed to do.
This is an extension of the social contract, and can cover a whole slew of issues beyond something as simple as someone objecting to meat eating to outright racism.
In over forty years of DMing I've had players object to everything from descriptions of graphic violence to the presence of foreign gods in a game. From not safe for work activities, to the presence of 'REAL' magic in a game world. When the game or the players strayed too far, we always sat down and worked it out. Some times compromises were made, other times the behavior was outright banned, in only three occasions did I have to tell a player outright "No", but in all three of those occasions the player was outright behaving as a bigot, and wouldn't be allowed at my table any ways.
Are you as a DM required to change your game to suite one player?
No, of course not.
Can you?
Sure if you want.
Should you?
That really up to you to decide. As the Dungeon Master, you're the world builder you have final say in the setting of your game. You're not required to change your game, any more then they are required to play in it.
If there request is reasonable to you, and/or you can find appropriate compromises then work it out, but if you can't there should be no hard feelings, you just need to play with different people.
But unless you're playing in a League there are no gaming police. Play how you want to, but be aware if you can't work out simple compromises, options for both available games and players will be limited.
Until next time,
Good Luck and Good Gaming.
0===}:::::::::::::::::::::>
New Player "Demands"? Did she demand or ask politely? That would make a big difference to how I would react. But with there reaction about being wrong and doing that to a pig...it was probably was a demand. In that case I would probably be eating a double cheeseburger with bacon the next session.
This stuff always boils down to communication. Know your audience and read the room. In this particular scenario it really does sound like the vegan was being unreasonable, as the request itself was pretty unreasonable.
A well thought out response, PDM. Admittedly, I would have been less tactful in my response. But I'm also lucky that I only play with my friends, who are all adults who understand the concept of fiction.
I don't think that's luck. I think that's the baseline of what one should expect.
Players and DMs giving each other the benefit of the doubt seems like the prudent course. That was a nice discussion of the issues.
Thanks.
I think they did a really good job. It's a tricky balance. People have different limits and story types. I also have had issues with restrictions in both directions but it's important to talk about it and at least try to figure it out. In my opinion
We agree.
I've watched your content before, but this is the one that got me to subscribe. Mad respect for you and your perspective on this topic.
Mad thanks for you sub!
Wow PDM, I'm so incensed I can barely see straight. If I were acquainted with that DM I don't think I'd ever speak to him again. What a load of feces. And guess what: when I was a child, playing in my own yard, I was attacked by a dog. Ripped my back to shreds... a Dobermann. While that dog should have been put through a wood chipper, I'm not afraid of dogs, 'triggered' by evil dogs in RPGs, and am happy to be around friendly dogs. Because I'm neither a pvssy nor a psycho who can't tell D&D from actual reality.
This one seems radioactive no matter which side you’re coming from. You are are a braver man than I.
Thus the +2 Vest
I'm really glad the situation worked out, but it's a bit frustrating seeing how it's been turned into clickbait to attract people who want to be angry about it. I'm glad Prof DM took such a measured approach.
There are no sides here other than the sane side and the insane side. We as a society need to stop catering to insane people.
I played in a game were I played a Druid and another player got super upset that my character eat animals. I had to explain what nature really is but it just flew over his head.
I could see a Druid being upset about farmed animals but hunted animals should be fine with them.
A druid in my campaign would respond the same.
@@frankb3347 Hunting is nature, agriculture is artificial. easy to get from a druidic perspective
Solid advice. It's considerate of not only the player's sensitivities, but the GM's as well.
I'm also glad that you specified that GM's have sensitivities as well, even if they disguise their reactive disgust to others voicing their sensitivities as "being thick-skinned."
Very well said, Professor DM. We all avoid certain topics out of sensitivity all the time without even thinking about it. Just because there are some requests that are less common, more unusual, or seemingly "strange" doesn't make the requesting player's feelings any less valid. Equally, making a respectful request is key to getting a respectful outcome. A player can't simply say, "I don't like X so we can't have any of that in the game, to hell with the rest of you." This is exactly why a session zero is important; it's partly to establish certain no-go areas for certain people. If a compromise can be made, that's great. If not, players can duck out before they commit.
Great to see the +2 vest of protection in use again. But seriously, super job at bringing a well balanced view on this including consideration for the DMs feelings in this
I'll take extra cruelty please
Now we need a video about "the secret GM league"
Good topic, thanks for the reminder. If something is non-negotiable and a certain topic will come up, then this also needs to be stated. Listen, consider and adjust when possible but also state what you're unwilling to change.
Thanks for watching!
All my characters are tee-totalers because I'm a recovering alcoholic and I've discussed it with my DM. I never requested that there be no alcohol in the game, but just that my characters won't be drinking and if possible, maybe just say "drinks" at the table, rather than specifying what they are (ale, beer, what have you). And that was the end of it. We're all good and no problems were had.
The player was well within their rights to make such a request, and the DM is well within his or her rights to acquiesce or deny that request--and if the later, the player just doesn't play in that game. I don't think the player is wrong. And if the DM denied the request, they're not wrong, either.
I HAVE experienced something similar to that slipery-slope of increasingly onerous requests, though--but not in a D&D context. It was a new colleague that we tried to accept into the friends circle who started out with a "I can't make it to X, can we reschedule" to doing it every single time. We had enough with her when she requested we move a lunch to 3 PM . . . a lunch that was reserved at a restaurant that closes at 2 after the lunch rush and doesn't reopen till 5. It was the 10th time she'd done this crap, too.
So I sympathize with that person's worry that the campaign will become "puritanical milk". If you feel that these increasing demands are being made in bad faith, it's best to excise the player. That power-play crap needs to be nipped in the bud. But it's best to carefully consider what's being requested, rather than assume that every instance is a power-play to control your group.
I remember DM'ing a campaign that the party did an odd job were the employer commissioned party to steal gnomish firework because the gnomes would not give them the secret recipe. The employer used the powder to create bombs in various taverns and areas around Baldur's Gate to sow terror. I remember describing the bomb going off in a tavern, the death of a NPC about to retire from the Thieves Guild with her partner after this last job, the ringing in the ears as sound slowly returns... And then it hit me: one of my players served in the Middle East as a tank operative and I realized that my descriptions might not be tasteful. I cornered him after the game and asked if he was all right. He said he was fine and laughed about it but I felt pretty bad. I apologized to his wife too but she said it was okay.
There's no reason session zero can't be repeated. I like the idea of the GM doing a 1 on 1 with the new player joining an ongoing campaign to give them 'the lay of the land' and get their triggers and preferences. And doing post-game reviews on particularly stressful sessions can help with processing. Heck, even Critical Role does that, on and off stream.
Yep, I have standard session zero notes which I adjust for each game. I send it out to players before the session so they can raise any issues, etc. When I have new players, I just send them that and follow it up a few days later.
Some people arent cut out to play pretend i guess 😂
Not something i thought i would say
It doesn't sound like the DM gave up much. In D&D most normal animals (such as lions, tigers & bears) are all CR 1 or less. Your group will quickly outscale them. The only other accomodation was with the cooking, where the group seems to have just avoided emphasizing the non-vegan elements. Not removing them, just not dwelling on them.
I'm not vegan but I don't think that sounds like a big deal unless you're already primed to read more into and reject whatever someone with that label says.
Thanks for commenting.
I'm christian, the groups I run and play in are agnostic, or christian players in our late 20's to mid 30's and our games are probably PG-13 to R for combat violence only.
I have tried lots of groups and lot of games over my near decade of experience. I played in one group who were all wiccan in their real life. They were a mixed group of men and women, played with totally different style and world view. They role played graphic sex scenes, and we're so into magic they had real wiccan spell books they used when they played.
Obviously we had conflicting world views and I'm not a fan of graphic sex in DnD. You know what I did, "thanks for the invite guys, but I don't think I'm the right player for you, I hope you continue to have fun".
No hard feelings. I then started my own group. Had I ever DM'ed, nope, but I started it. The vegan player can have her views, but at the end of the day she joined a group mid game, and it's not the groups job to conform to her and like many people had said, it's starts small, then they take over the group with their demands.
Should the vegan player be respected as a person, sure, but that's a two way street, and changing other people and other people's game and hobby group so you can feel justified in your world view is not cool.
Thanks for sharing!
I mean, if you’re willing to make that accommodation, that’s great! I generally play in a hard world, but not everyone wants to play in a hard world or finds different things hard and I will try to play to the lowest comfort level.
It sounds that they handled it really well!! Which is great.
The word "friend" is used to describe the relationship between the DM and player, and it sounds like the people involved worked it out as friends should.
If you can agree upon a way to play without using IRL trauma as a cheap way to get an emotional response, then you've done your job as GM.
Real trauma of whom? The players you DM for? Or do you mean in general?
Because if it is in general then almost everything in existence might have to be avoided.
You know some people have trauma because when they learned as young children just how insanely huge the universe is it scared them down to their core? Yeah, apparently lot of people developed phobia/fear of space due to stuff like that.
Though I think lot of players, myself included, like taking on our traumas in tabletop games. It gives you... this odd sort of liberation that real life can't reproduce.
Ofc if someone is uncomfortable they can always speak up and I may very well make the scene milder or even have the scene be done over discord for the others to read and solve so the player doesn't have to go into that themselves. Might lengthen things by 15 minutes, but my groups tend to play in 8 hour sessions or so, so 15 minutes is drop in the sea.
@@Elmithian You've asked and then answered your own question. A session zero, and/or frank, friendly discussion makes for better games among friends.
I'm not GM'ing the world at large, my focus is the people at my table - and knowing what they find distasteful, unpleasant, or not amusing makes the game more enjoyable for all.
@@JasonsVoicesLLC Well, my question was about whether you were talking about the players at your table trauma or traumatic stuff in general.
I might approach it same way as you, but I would still not know which method *you* used without you giving your answer (which you have done now).
Hence, without your confirmation, I would not truly know I had the answer about your approach.
This was a refreshing look at a "D&D horror story" that I usually don't get with these sorts of videos. Thank you for being level about it. Nice job.
You're very welcome!
This is the first thoughtful and respectful comment on this issue I've seen so far - and again I'm convinced that the Profesor is one of the greatest minds in the RPG content sector here.
Great video. Loved the nuanced takes and varied perspectìves, overall i found this really balanced and mature. I've often considered this kind of issue because in many ways I view DnD above all as a problem solving game. Combat is often one of the most complex and satisfying puzzles within that. However, I also view myself as a non-violent person, so playing a game where the main, and often only, means of resolving problems is violence, challenges my beliefs. What's more, i think it encourages lazy problem solving on the part of players. For these reasons I've often considered writing a non-violent dnd game, maybe something in the vein of Disco Elysium, but i know that would be weird because combat is DnD's core mechanic. Also, it would require the right group of players, because I know hack n slash is what many players want from the game
sometimes that happens, that is why you have a session zero.