D&D Tips: Why Character Sheets are Prisons (Ep. 256)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2022
- Professor Dungeonmaster explains why character sheets are prisons and how to break free.
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“The sheet tells you what you’re good at not what you can’t do” is now added to one of the things I tell new players.
Hear, hear.
Just because you don't have a degree in electrical engineering, it doesn't mean you can't wire up a lamp, for example.
Some tasks under a given skill set are pretty darn close to a threshold of zero. Monkeys and typewriters are a relevant concept when the rice hit the table.
The sheer number of players who will literally argue back that if you're not good at it, you shouldn't bother doing it at all (facepalm) . . . these are the same people that will say that if you can't use your bonus action during a turn, your turn is just wasted!
Exactly- How hard is it REALLY to stumble around on a Computer Keyboard & "Accidentally" unlock a password ... or maybe tinker with a Fuse Box and bypass a possible Trap??
Is it really THAT Difficult to Fathom.....
@@JimMonsanto Mmm, not everyone even *has* a relevant bonus action to use on every turn, even.
The problem is that it still guides players on the can't do direction.
I honestly think games companies foster that kind of "rules before rulings" attitude in order to keep people coming back to buy new books full of new "options." I've been gradually moving away from actually using rules supplements, myself. If someone shows me a cool picture on Pinterest that they think is a neat character concept, or comes to me and says "I want to play an alchemical gunslinger," we just talk about what that constitutes to us and get playing. It's very freeing, it means that the same character concept can be done three times differently, and I've already said boo to balance at my table. It also saves us all a ton of money (which inevitably gets spent on more dice)
It's why I like Shadowrun because they kinda do both they throw rulings and then a bunch of junk you can add if you want. A lot of the junk is cool to make a really focused character. But in D&D its why I love user made content since often it solves the messy multiclassing problems by making one class borrow something from another.
Rule-systems can be awesome if they are well made. However, there are not that many rule-systems that are short, concise and yet have some depth.
I've always struggled to follow rules exactly, so I naturally lean toward rulings rather than rules. You're absolutely right about the developers must focus on rules, it's how they make money. The moment you learn how to discern is the moment you realize you don't need more rules, you need more ideas - and you stop buying RULE books. Feeling the need for every new book is the dividing line between DMs that have discernment on rulings and DMs who do not and need a rule clarification detailed out. I don't want to sound mean - some of my best friends/players are "by the book", but I do find that it causes a limitation in their ability to run a game that (as my players say) "just makes sense".
Now, I still get the new 5e books (and other books for games I've actually never played and likely never will). So I do have them, but that's simply because I love the artwork and the books aren't useless - they inspire a lot of ideas. I just don't rely on them for rules. All my players go into my game knowing that I overrule all rules.
@@nickzema4200 "you don't need more rules, you need more ideas" Brilliant observation. It's only in the last year I realized that the real strength of every edition of D&D is the amazing ideas it gives you. The rules can be a barrier if you use them too much but there are so many ideas you're sure to find something that inspires you.
Swade, savage worlds, is what's right for you. Omni customizable settings, races, and more with a universal rule set.
The rules are so light I've changed them many times to even further simplify them and they don't break the game. 5e feels weird in that regard and pf and pf2 is all about rules down to even talking to people
I know it was put in as a joke but a barbarian who does actually create his own clothes (especially if he's doing it from scratch, making it from materials he's found in the wilderness) is actually really thematic and cool.
Agreed but making him buy a cobblers tool set, some leather from the tannery and make a roll to see if he succeeds is perhaps not necessary. It nay depend if you are playing a stone age survival game or epic high fantasy but in at least one of those genres it is a bit dull. 😉
@@nicka3697 Oh definitely, I just thought his Conan the Craftbarian came off as more rad than silly to me, ahaha
@@nicka3697 All of that could be important in an adventure. Party is hired to get the cobbles tools back, or a player aware of cobbles tools realizes the twitchy cobbler doesn't have all the necessary tools and is a fake. I don't know if cobblers tools are all that useful to a player but I can see them being useful in a game.
@@nicka3697 Yeah, maybe have him make the tools too. Haha
@@ruprecht8520 Yep, a fictional story can involve ANYTHING. Professor DM talks about never limiting this, unless it would worsen the game.
I remember one of Matt Coleville's history of D&D videos, where he said something to the effect of when the Rogue was introduced, it was controversial and that it was considered by a number of players to be a downgrade to the game. The thinking was exactly along the lines of this video: before the introduction of the Rogue, EVERYONE was just a rogue by default. You told the DM you wanted to sneak or pick a lock (or a pocket), or any number of Rogue abilities, and the DM adjudicated it then and there. After the Rogue came out, all of a sudden, no one BUT the Rogue was able to do these things: it's kind of implied that if a Rogue has a Lock Picking ability, then others _don't_. And it seemed that Matt agreed with you: Just say what you want to do, and let the DM adjudicate it. Stop being a prisoner to your character sheet!
People have spent a lot of time and energy trying to fix the "Thief problem". Thus far, I've decided to adjudicate the Thief in a way where their skills are borderline supernatural. Sure, everyone can climb, hide, or pick a lock. But a Thief can potentially climb a sheer wall, hide in pure shadow, and pick a lock quickly and silently. All of that off-set by the fact that the Thief is a d4 class (in B/X).
But this WAS true in D&D. If the Thief had a 20% to sneak and I want to sneak, what's my chance. Does the Thief now set a max on what my chance is or is the Thief's ability to sneak fixed to his class feature and non-Thieves can have what ever the DM allows. Either way, either only Thieves could sneak, or the Thief was the worst at sneaking because his class feature was a hindrance OR was ignored giving the Thief no clasd features.
@@thetimebinder What edition of the game are you referring to? In B/X, Thieves can "Move Silently". Any class can "move quietly", given favorable circumstances, because that's just something an average human can do. In slightly unfavorable circumstances, perhaps the Thief can do it for free and other classes have to roll 1/6 like other baseline rolls. In near-impossible scenarios where other classes can't sneak, then the Thief has to roll "Move Silently". In essence, I run it like a gradient.
@@sequoia-sugi Hyperborea refers to the thief abilities as preternatural. I think it's fitting.
@@thetimebinder Those values reflect the fact that party sizes were bigger and hirelings were used. A single thief in a party of 4-6 characters will suck.
100% Way too many people think a role-playing game is a board game, with finite rules and limitations. My last D&D group really struggled to understand the simplicity of Dungeon World...and the lack of a bank of skills and "special" stuff. It's really embedded in people, and I think a lot of the younger people view an RPG just like a PC game RPG. They genuinely think it's about unlocking the next button you can push to do X, instead of just...actually playing a role.
Exactly. Pass it on.
I think it's more that they've been conditioned on video games like Diablo and think their range of options must be limited, the same as similar CRPGs
1000% correct Oskar
Absolutely, it drives me nuts in the group I'm in. My DM said while speaking as a dying character 'take my magic sword+1 it does twice the critical damage on a 20' or something to that effect. While in character I repeated it back to him. He gets it now, hopefully, technical jargon can totally take one out of a dramatic moment and make if feel gamey.
@@mustangs7 This made me laugh out loud.
A few years back at Gencon I was playing in an AD&D game. We were in a dungeon and the party ended up behind a wooden door with a dim light emanating from the cracks. We could hear a muffled sound behind it, but we couldn't put a finger and what it was. So I, the fighter in front, say I'm going to lay down on my belly and see if I can make out any movement or creatures on the other side. The GM gives my a sidelong glance and says, "Well, you can't do that- that's more of a rogue thing. You're a fighter." Without a rogue in the party nobody could get on their belly and get a better look. This was a guy in his 50's who regaled us with tales of him meeting and playing with Gary Gygax year after year at Gencon. Too bad he didn't learn anything from him.
That is the most unimaginative thing I have heard a GM say in quite a while...
That has to be one of the worst things I have ever read
"Ok, so I attempt to look under the door, but since I'm not a Rogue I fall over and flop around the floor like a fish."
I am oversensitive, but I think I would've told him off and then left the game... I mean... this is an idiotic shit thing to do. What comes next? I forget to take down my gauntlets while I am eating berries? I mean... I only have an intelligence of 9, I might be stupid. Good gods...
@@balazszsigmond826 "I forget to take down my gauntlets while I am eating berries?" Well that depends. You have to roll with disadvantage cause that's in the rule book! Although to be accurate berry eating is not so clearly defined in the rulebook. Perhaps all berry eating should be suspended until WOTC comes out with their Berry Eating Players Handbook and Berry Eating Dungeon Masters Companion. Or maybe it will be in the new digital rules.
Way back when (late 70s, early 80s) my group came to the conclusion that any character sheet that didn't fit on an index card was too large to be optimized for roleplaying. In the intervening decades, I haven't come up with anything that really has invalidated this. My group does enjoy more complex things, like 4e... but we also played Star Fleet Battles and Advanced Squad Leader. Complex rules = board game, and those are fun too. But stories go better with less, we concluded.
AMEN! this is why i am an OSR only guy.
dropping a crunchy combat one shot, or a whacky board game style terror bird race is one of my favorite GM tricks. The campaign doesn't suffer for using different types of rules for different situations. It makes it seem... bigger somehow.
That's how ICRPG got invented. It's funny how players you've never met, across states and countries, reach the same conclusions. Thanks for sharing!
Tunnels & Trolls was the first TTRPG I came across to have index card-based character sheets. I thought it was brilliant then and I think it's brilliant now.
Tried an open session using a card with the basic WWWWWH questions and jotted down the player's answers as a base for open ended play for beginning low tier characters.
1. Who are you?
2. What unique talent/aspect can you do?
3. When are you most active, at work or at school?
4. Where are you from, or when X happened?
5. Why do you do what you do?
6. How do you do this thing you can do?
First sessions went free-form fantastic. RP was inspired between characters. Dialog wasn't stillted and naturally flowed.
Generic system rules were added by request. The rules kinda killed the natural flow and RP now. It was a holiday filler idea that will likely be shelved until later holiday filler. :'(
3:40 I get what you're driving at, Professor, but while many players might take the skill bonuses as shackles the fact remains that the left character does have a few more things they can do in addition to all the things the character on the right can do.
Special abilities are cool, they don't have to be shackles restricting a player from doing other cool stuff
My wife and I started playing a couple months ago. She is new to dnd but I played and DMd in my youth. We played 5e, Dragon of Icespire Peak. We are now going to use old-school essentials, with some knave and ad&d 1e. This video has opened my mind and given me the freedom to make our first old school adventure the freedom it deserves. Thank you for this video. The Temple of Elemental Evil is going to be a blast.
My wife and I also started a game! We started using the 5e basic free download and since then I have incorporated rules from Index Card RPG! She is still using her original monk character from 5e but I like the cleaner ICRPG rules for DMing. Just as Prof says, what do you want to do? Is it hard or easy? Hard, beat a 15. Easy, beat a 12. Do you have a relevant stat? Add that bonus! Fun times.
One of my favorite Dungeon Craft videos. I love sharing this with new players and DM'S. 🧙♂️
Thank you. It kinda underperformed, but like the new one "Less Exposition, More Demolition" it is one of my best.
2nd edition had non-weapon proficiencies one of those was riding, at first it seems like a skill needed to ride a horse however in the description its made clear that is specifically combat riding manuvers saddle hanging to dodge attacks and other things of that nature without penalties. I think all skill systems should be like that and make it clear that it doesnt bar you from performing basic tasks it just means you have put in the effort to achieve certain levels of mastery in the given field.
I think 3.5, and Pathfinder did good in making that clear by only giving certain, specific skills a unique looking "trained only" mark, heavy handedly implying on every character sheet that not having points or having low points doesn't mean your character can't even anything.
Good point.
The nonweapon proficiencies encourage ridiculous min maxing. Armourer, horse riding, survival, blind fighting. Done for the fighter. You would be a fool to consider anything else. But that’s crappy for role playing.
@@Xplora213 Tell me you are a munchkin without telling me you are a munchkin.
@@Magworld0 what is the purpose of taking an ability that achieves nothing? Would you specialise in whip? A completely flavourful yet unproductive weapon? How many characters do you need to kill while wearing leather armour to decide that chain Mail or plate is a better choice for a low level hand to hand warrior type?
You send your mage to the front line? Surely that’s anti munchkin?
There is a big difference between combat mechanics, character flavour and min maxing. It’s a dice game, you can’t completely ignore good decisions when your friends are relying on you.
I love the idea of the dagger specialist but I don’t see him getting to name Level.
I've never understood the apparent allergic reaction to skills that so many old-school themed players have. Skills are a useful tool for adjudicating actions, and whether or not people look at their sheet for options vs thinking "what would I do if I actually were this character" and thinking that way. I'm also quite skeptical of the notion that player behavior, and this is one, to some degree, should be addressed by the rules. Most instances of player behavior, including exactly how to roleplay, are much better solved by getting better players, or teaching your current players how to be better and agreeing on what you want the game to be like after some discussion, not attempting to put rules in place, or take them out, either one, to address behavior specifically.
I took the advice for this OSR mentality and drew the conclusion none of them are worth buying if I'm supposed to just make it up in my head anyways. An advantage of just freeforming it is that I'm not stuck staring at the same gritty low fantasy trite I've seen a billion times before already
@@fadeleaf845I'm not with you there. I love low fantasy. I'm just skeptical that skills are the cause of what a lot of OSRians blame on them.
Good advice. For my 1e and OSE games I like to use a d6 metric against attributes - increasing the # of d6s against how difficult I think the task is. So a check to see if a Cleric knows a bit about another religion might be a 3d6 against their intellect, where a non-cleric may be a 4d6... things like that. It's quick, easy, and keeps a brisk flow to the game.
MM - I also run a 1e campaign and have generally moved to either a d20 or d100 roll for all checks.
d20 + Ability Score for checks on Perception (Wisdom), evasion or acrobatics (Dex), endurance (Con), Knowledge (INT), etc. A high roll will generally indicate at least some level of success.
d100 for skill checks with modifiers from lvl, ability bonuses, and situation. This is predicated on a lower is better mechanic with 01 always being a success and 00 being a failure.
It serves me well and helps keep the game flowing.
@@danielrowan4716 An interesting idea! What is your baseline for an 'average' result with such a system? What target would be considered easy to achieve etc...?
Oh OK, so roll under attribute, adding more d6s for higher difficulty. I like it
@@Merlinstergandaldore - I haven’t simplified it quite as much as you have but I’ve fit pretty much all checks (ability, initiatives) into a d20 roll with situational bonuses and penalties to be applied (generally +/- 1 to 4) and skill checks (thieving, wild magic) going d100.
I’ve adopted a version of Difficulty Class checks that range from Simple (2-9 required) to Nearly Impossible (40+ required) on a d20 + Applicable Ability Score. So a DC 20 is an average.
I will ask for a d100 in situations where there’s a perceived large amount of moving parts / variables, or thieving ability.
My group loves rolling d100 so I oblige them.
This is the Moldvay method. It's not bad, but it seems simpler to pick one mechanic and use it for everything. D&D has largely coalesced around the hit roll as the universal mechanic for the good reason that it's the most iconic roll in the game.
I've heard you talk about this type of stuff before, and after putting it into practice in my games, I agree. I used to DM Pathfinder 2E, and while me and one other player really liked the tactical board game type combat, the rest of my group loves the fast and free form combat in the homebrew system your videos inspired me to make. I think combat that's easy to understand, rewards creativity, and can flow like an action movie is just more accessible to players who don't power game. Most players just want the fantasy of their stories and characters, and getting to those things without needing to wrap your head around a game's meta creates a path of less resistance.
Thanks! Glad it worked out.
It’s a taste and preference thing. Some people want the crunch, they want explicit mechanical benefits to accompany their choices. Some people want there to be explicit mechanical differences to accompany changes in the fiction.
A rules-lite game like Deathbringer would bore me to death. If everyone’s character sheet looks the same and no one has special abilities that only they can do, then no one is unique. That’s boring to someone like me.
@@jltheking3 But would every player make the same choices all the time? I've seen that light come on in players... "You mean, I can do ANYTHING?!" Then they're differentiated by the person playing them, instead of by math.
@@jltheking3 some people just want to play video games
@@benvoliothefirst I pitch you a very simple example: can everyone cast healing magic in your game? Probably not.
But if everyone could cast healing magic, then what is special about the cleric?
Now you’re going to say, “but the cleric can cast healing magic better!”.
And you would be correct. That is exactly what I mean by explicit mechanical differences (“I can do X better”) and unique special abilities (“only I can do X”). It makes the player playing those roles feel special and a valuable member of the team.
Sure, you sacrifice some amount of player agency to do so. No one can do everything. But the tradeoff, in my opinion, is worth it. Games are more fun when there are limitations. A game without classes would be lesser off. This is why ALL modern RPGs have skills/feats/classes of some form. A game where everyone is equal is a boring game.
Great tips, as usual. It's always refreshing to hear new players tell me what they want to do after I reassure them that I'd worry about the rules - do whatever you want!. Versus the min/maxing trap other players can fall into.
A halfling warlock was in a tight spot after being caught preaching heresy about her patron in the streets. As she was surrounded by city watch and local priests for questioning, she used her ring of djinn summoning and declared a "wish" to wipe everyone's memory. I wasn't going to fuss over the technically of a lvl 9 wish spell, so I had the Djinn use sleep and it accomplished what she had imagined. Way more fun and memorable!
This is why I ended up swapping to Call of Cthulhu from D&D at least as a game master, while it still has crunch, I find the structure of it encourages my players to think outside the box more. One player, purely using what was on hand in the environment around them, turned a hallway into a giant electrified bug zapper trap for a monster, while standing in a heavy plastic storage container to act as bait for the beast that was hunting them, and it worked! They didn't kill the monster as they intended but they sent it blasting into the vents screaming in pain to go lick its wounds and gave themselves and the rest of the party a needed break from being pursued in the maze-like space station they were trapped on.
Cool story. I still think CoC's character sheet is way too complex, but it IS intuitive. Rock on!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 It's not as bad as it looks after doing several games myself, especially if you are using the free auto-calculation pdf sheets from their website or a site like roll20 that does the math for you (and honestly that is only during character creation). Plus if you feel like the skill list is too long or some rules don't feel right for your game it's pretty easy to just ignore or condense or even change rules without hurting the core game mechanics, it's what our group did in our following games when we found some skills to be redundant for our personal preferences. We're currently doing a lightly homebrewed fantasy Dark Ages Pulp Cthulhu setting for one of our rotation games, where the skill list is much shorter and gives us that OSR threat level feel and freedom, while still providing the crunch some of our more veteran players crave.
I ran a D&D Encounters game back in the 4e game for my local game shop. For the "Keep on the Borderlands" campaign we had a father join with his 9-year-old son. During a sewer encounter the son (playing an Encounters pregen Rogue) said:
"I'm going to run across the wall to get behind the enemy and throw my knives at it as I summersault to the ground behind him."
Really imaginative and I was about ready to tell him what he needed to do (acrobatics check x2 with a DC of 12 and 15, then roll atk at -2 and -4) when his father sighed heavily and said "you can't do that .just keep to what's on your sheet."
The kid went from exuberant to utterly crestfallen ... Until I reminded the dad I was DM and told the kid what I needed from him.
After the game the dad approached me and asked if I was a "credentialed" DM and if WotC approved of their DM's houseruling. I laughed, packed up my stuff and headed out.
They came to every single game and everyone but the dad had a blast and also spent a good chunk of change at the store in the process.
Should have told him: "why yes they do, but they don't appreciate shitty dads"
So for some reason despite being notified that I have replies, I cannot see them. Apologies to anyone trying to converse with me.
That is insane and the definition of a no fun allowed sorta fella
@@user-dd9dh9kw5c unfair. I’m living this reality right now with a young player doing crazy things and sometimes they are playing Avengers more than Indiana Jones and need to be pulled back because even Legolas couldn’t float on water.
Dad- stick to what’s on the sheet.
GM- dad’s Right. Roll the acrobatics that’s on the sheet and the Att that’s on the sheet.
Dad- you’re not a real GM because you told my kid he could have fun and use his imagination…
…see you next week.
😂
Grab your ketchup and crunch away my friends.
It's a prison more for my players then myself. Players want to know what they can do (the Gamer persona), not what they could do. Often when I try to go out of the box I generally get resistance. This is why I love playing these games with my teenage daughter and her friends as they don't contest my rulings and don't fall into the routine of using the same skills over and over again. They describe what they are doing as they don't know the rules really well so I am doing the math for them. They literally just roll with it and the game itself flows much better.
Same with my daughter and her friends. That's why older GMs must teach this play style.
Thank you Professor. This is truly one of the things that has turned me off D&D since I came back to TTRPGs. As humans we love to categorize things. In a game where every side of the dice is only 5% difference (d20) how important is a +1 or -1 to the overall story. Roll the dice describe and move on. I have always viewed Classes as Archetypes, flavor ideas for how to play. I never thought of them as walls that prevent other options of play. Freeform thoughts of how to play creatively are what allow the creation of future class ideas. If you hold to only playing the classes a certain way you are holding yourself back not just from the fun of play, but from the discovery I enjoy most about these games.
THIS!
Excellent video. Consistently excellent presentation, btw. You never chatter or belabor anything, each segment is a well-supported point reinforcing a strong opinion. I always know Dungeon Craft videos are worthwhile. I grew up on the old school but your videos continue to convey the power and wisdom of the old methods. The rare crafting videos are also excellent.
I've been telling my players to turn their sheets upside down and only consult them if a roll is called for. It's definitely been helping them think in terms of "what am I good at?" instead of "what's my bonus?"
Son#1 was a Skyrim player before I introduced him to D&D. He was looking at his character sheet and said "Um, can I..." I quickly said "YES! you can try almost ANYTHING you can think of! There's no buttons to push!" His face lit up in realization, and he began to improvise with a will. :)
I agree so hard, I broke my agree bone. This is why I DESPISE when players refer to their characters as their "build".
Lol. Me too.
I’m with you. Also, sorry about your wang. 😬
We've been playing OSE and don't have a thief in our party. The first 3 sessions we kept asking "But CAN we sneak?" and "Can I pick a lock?" it's great because the answer was "Yes. Just not as well as a thief"
But isn't that the same in games like 5e? Anyone can try to sneak and some characters are better at it than others. There's just a definitive number attached to how much better they are.
I have mixed thoughts on this. Character sheet stats can stimulate creativity by getting players to think about possibilities and details and they can limit it if treated as all-defining. A DM who can improvise and keep the game flowing is always desirable, but few of us start there.
I'm a min Max player who is slowly starting to appreciate RP and social interaction more.
Very fun to be a dwarf fighter with negative charisma trying to persuade an decieve a bunch of elves, ending with being chased out of town.
This one is spot on. I can say for personal experience that it's a tough prison to break out of, but the freedom is worth it.
Loved the longer introduction to the essay before the vignette as well as the development and the ideias brought: the script you wrote is really clear. The outro was so funny as well! What a great way to make deathbringer more present on the channel!
Have been watching your channel for the past two years or so, ever since I got into dnd, and it's awesome to see you getting better and better at making videos, Professor! Thank you for the help!
Smart video, as always. The "Rulings Not Rules" ethos is probably the best thing D&D 5e added back into the game. Even so, it's very much a case of finding the happy medium. Limiting yourself to what's explicit on the sheet is weak play, but every creative person knows that it's the boundaries and limitations that provide a context in which to create. Sometimes those limitations are only in the player's head and that's okay too -- for example, a character who won't even attempt to ride that horse because the player wants the character to be incompetent at that sort of thing.
I'm curious, in what way do you feel 5e added "Rulings Not Rules" back into the game? Tables I've been at all use Skills and Feats.
@@sequoia-sugi It's a bit of an exaggeration on my part. But 5e reduced the weight of those systems considerably. Even when they're used, they aren't as restrictive as 3.5/PF1 -- when in doubt, everything is a stat check which skills help with. There are fewer feats, too. There are fewer specific rules allowing only certain daring actions to those who paid for the resource, so there 's more room around the PCs to improvise without being shot down by book text. The rules around skills and feats are light enough that you can be flexible about when (and if) you apply them.
@@Alefiend Oh yeah, for sure 5e is better in this regard than the 3.5e days.
“+2 arrows of redundancy” was a good one 😆
It kind of reminds me what brought me back to older D&D after a while, is that it had attack bonus as a thing that said how good you were at fighting. You didn't need special smite powers or extra attacks, you had a number that said I am good at fighting. I went back after playing GURPS actually, and I kept finding it extremely frustrating that our action heroes were often better off punching people than using folding chairs or gardening tools because of the skill penalties for weapons we weren't trained in. Made me miss just rolling that attack bonus with whatever you're wielding at a time
I've watched many of your videos and this one is by far my favorite. Absolutely stellar advice. After so many years of playing I was definitely institutionalized by the rules and class parameters and it wasn't always thus. I think I slipped into that trap in the last decade. Thanks for breaking me out!!
Thanks! This is one of my favorite videos too. Please share it. More on this topic to come.
Yup, I’ve been mashing ICRPG, death ringer and a bit of tiny dungeon into a faster system. We translate many 5e stuff too, quite easy once you have the overall math worked in.
I played a “simple” version of DnD with my nephews and son. There was no “over analysis paralysis”. Just good times and memories.
Yes! Rock on!
Your character sheet is mostly a list of things your character is good at (and if you have dump stats, a few things they're not so good at) ... but it's not an exclusive list.
Most DMs reward improvisation, some DMs will tie improvisation to a similar ability and let you roll to see if you can do it, and a few will tell you you're about to fail badly.
It's always worth finding out what kind of DM you're playing with.
5:51 "We just don't need that level of resolution..." Well done professor. Well done.
That's why I love Symbaroum , the character sheet is simple , players can do what they want and every skill possible is covered under 6 stats(I think that's the number). The game is fast and deadly with a beautiful dark world, filled with rich lore.
This is why i like shadow of the demon lord's system for skill checks. You had 2 professions before becoming an adventurer.
Explain why you would be apt at doing something and you get to roll with adv or a boon.
DC is always 10.
Roll a d20.
If you have advantage or disadvantage, add/subtract a d6.
Multiple sources of adv and disadv cancel out. Multiple sources of adv allows you to roll multiple d6 but apply the highest.
Its super clean and fun.
Shadow is a VERY good system.
Continued great insight.
I got to play a game of Low Fantasy Gaming for the first time, and the DM said "Don't tell me/ask me what skill to use to do something, just tell me what you want to do, and I will tell you what to roll if anything".
This is why 3e broke my brain. After playing earlier editions, the sudden amount of rules and options I had to learn as a DM was too much and ruined my enjoyment. So, after a brief foray into Pathfinder to learn it was no different, I went back to old school and relearned all my DM skills as if they were never gone. It’s why I skipped 4e and have a love/hate(erring on the side of hate) relationship with 5e. The greatest lesson ever I have learned over my 40 years of play is less is more in RPGs.
Amen, I wish more people would understand that.
I find that trying a more broad system after doing something like D&D helps so much. After play games like Savage Worlds and Blades in the Dark opened my mind on how to play D&D/PF.
Great tips. I had my son watch this with me because we've just started playing and I want him to be thinking out of the box from the start.
Played Lost Mines of Phandelver when I first started out. My guy was a Human Noble Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer. Well, as a Noble, I felt that I needed to have a sword, so, when the group found some shortswords, I claimed one as my melee weapon - granted, I wasn't proficient in it, but I used it, when I had the chance to do so. Annoyingly, I was going to the dentist a lot during that time.
Currently, playing as a Dhampir Tabaxi Rogue - despite having an 8 in Strength, and lacking the Athletics Skill, I've had to make a Strength Check for one reason or another - paddling a boat, grappling a kobold, removing a slain bear off of the bugbear artificer - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Annoyingly, the Artificer has a 6 in their Wisdom, which I wouldn't mind, but it seems like, in their mind, having a -2 to Animal Handling means, "Nope! Can't ride a horse," and they didn't even roll to try.
"I am Conan the utilitarian..." ROFL at that whole bit! Good one Prof!
That was funny!
"My brain gives me options" best line I've ever heard!
Honestly I love the tactical element leveraging character sheet, skills and thinking about what the character is good at so I personally wouldn't remove those modifiers for those who do enjoy them.
However this doesn't mean we shouldn't always be immersed in the world and think about what the character would realistically do in that setting.
Also I think that this mirrors real life because often one person is better at certain things (e.g talking/athletics etc) and they'll tend to be the one who mostly does it.
I'm a fan, but every time I find myself trying to go heavier in on it, I see the same problems. You set a target number or make a ruling, and because it was done on the fly, when you do the same thing later for another character, or the same character even, come up with a different number or ruling despite the fact there's no legitimate reason to, so the characters experience and skill-set is invalidated. No-one is reasonably going to be able to remember all the previous numbers and the rulings they made so that they can be sure they're being fair.
I understand your perspective. In game fairness is a must. It only works if you can trust your DM. If cannot trust your DM, every game and every set of rules will be unfulfilling.
This is where the magic happens! The negotiation of the target number between the GM and the player or party. This leads to spontaneous role play, character development, spotlight sharing, and more, all simultaneously and naturally. And all while not invalidating any skill at all. Example:
Player 1: We're in pretty bad shape, I want to decode the arcane symbols on the wall to open this door, and get the hell out of here
GM: Ok. It is pretty dark and cold. And there is a golem trying to flatten you all. And the ice weasels are trying to eat you, which will make concentrating pretty difficult. So it'll be pretty hard to do. How does an 18 target feel?
Player 1: That is pretty high...
Player 2: Can I help?
GM: Sure, how?
Player 2: I'm a ranger, I know my ice weasels. I'll use some jerky as bait to draw the ice weasels away from Player 1.
GM: Sounds good. If you do that, then Player 1 will only need a 16 to decode the symbols.
Player 3: I toss Player 1 my torch so they can see better!
GM: Alrighty, target is now a 14.
Player 3: I walk up to the golem. Cast Shield on myself, and brace for impact. I can take maybe one hit, so you better get this door open now.
GM: Ok, with no imminent golem threat, and the ice weasels chasing Player 2 around, Player 1 needs a 12 to decode these runes. That sound good?
Players: ROLL IT!
Everyone can be involved in the target negotiation. At the end of the day, a number will be decided upon that everyone agrees with. And that is the most important thing. If it is a really high target, and the players are cool with it, then that is the way it is. They will not feel robbed by the GM when they fail, but by the dice gods, and that is perfectly fine. Target negotiation turns it from players vs. GM to the GM being on the side of the players. The number is really irrelevant. You can put the most high stakes, campaign ending situation as the result of a coin flip, and if everyone is aware of it and cool with it, it will be the single most intense coin flip of any character's life.
To the point of, if this same skill is done again by the same character or whatnot, if the target is different doesn't that invalidate the skill? I say nay nay!
Player 1: I want to decode these runes, same as that one time with the ice weasels.
GM: Ok, beat a 16.
Player 1: But it was so easy last time, why is it harder this time?
GM: Well, if I recall, you had the rest of the party helping you out last time. And this time the room is filling with lava. And there is a phase-shifting eel trying to suck your soul if you stand still for any period of time, remember?
Player 1: Oh yeah. But I should have experience now with this sort of thing, right?
GM: Good point. Do you think a 14 or 15 is better?
I would argue that target negotiation is where a huge part of the 'Role-playing' part of the 'RPG' comes from.
I have tried to make this same point in the last few months to my gaming group. I have been really turned off as of late to the WotC D&D versions, and figured out that this is the reason why... the classes feel more like a list of the things you can do, more like a JRPG combat menu.
Recently I was invited by a new GM for a bunch of first time players (she knew I was a helpful player), and I made it a point to constantly do creative things that are not listed under "Barbarian abilities". You could see the confused looks on their eyes because "that is not in the rules". By the end of the first session though, everyone started getting it and were doing creative outside-the-box and the laughter and cheers increased exponentially.
LOL! Arrows of Redundancy is such a perfect term.
So smart and so helpful! I've played off/on for 40 years; about to DM for my first time and loving your content and approach (and the Death Bringer shirts!)
Since I've started following your channel a couple of years ago I must agree with this approach. Has made my games much more cinematic and dinamic
Another great breakdown! Your suggestions are pretty awesome. I currently am about to run a ICRPG game and I'm excited. I'm grateful for all the systems you go over. It's like being at an awesome RPG salad bar. Hold the blue cheese. 😁
As always I love your video. They always get me thinking... but this is the first time you've literally brought me to tears with that Conan joke/impression.
This definitely helps in my game.
Excellent Arnold Schwarzenegger impersonation by the way 👏 👏 👏
Glad to be of help!
Interesting listen. I'll compare the character sheet to sheet music.
A useful learning tool for beginners, or to get a bunch of more experienced players off on the right foot.
If you're Steve Holmes learning "Three blind mice" on recorder in primary school, or The Quarrymen figuring out a Buddy Holly arrangement, the sheet music is a valuable support.
If you're John Coltrane, or the later Beatles, you know how to play beyond the sheets.
Likewise a new adventuring group, or a DM with new players can lean on the sheet as a shortcut to far more verbose rules.
This can serve as a step toward a more freestyle approach as players gain confidence and stretch their imagination.
That journey is something that the DM can encourage throughout.
Howdy Professor DM. I picked up Deathbringer and Eldritch Hack from DriveThruRPG and really dig them both. Thanks for the great work!
Another perfect lunchtime Tuesday! Insightful and engaging as always. Great stuff.
In a recent game I was able to use carpenter tools to shore up the struts in a mine so it didn't collapse. it was fun to be the person who could solve the puzzle, and also it allowed for a random encounter - because hammering attracted a monster, so we had a fun fight too.
I didn't think I was shackled by the rules / character sheets, but hearing this, I guess I was. Thanks! It's cool to hear this, and I'm more excited to try some of your ideas (and Deathbringer)!
Something I learned many years ago was the term “functional fixedness.” How a tool or an object is named will affect what a person could do with it. The example I was given at that time was a simple circuit: a battery, wires and a lamp; only one of the wires was broken, so the circuit was open. It was brown in such a way that there wasn’t enough wire to twist the ends together. You had to use something to jump the gap. People were told they had a screwdriver, a wrapped stick of gum, a paperclip and a couple other mundane items. Most could not figure out how to use one or more of them to bridge the gap. But, when they were told the had ‘a metal rod, a strip of aluminum-coated paper, a bent piece of wire…just about everyone could figure out a way to close the circuit and make the bulb light. Some years after that, while working in an automotive service department, I was looking up how to do some minor trim repair. One of the steps was “use a flat-bladed prying tool to…” and the attendant picture showed a flat-bladed screwdriver being used.
Shop class back in school always stressed “Only use a tool for its intended purpose.” Which, in and of itself is great for teaching students who might barely know their way around hammers and saws and the like how to use them safely. But there will come a time when you might not have the correct tool in hand and not have enough time to find the correct one for the task at hand. That’s when you need to understand a screwdriver can serve as a prying tool, a hammer handle can be used for things just as the part you use to drive the nails in…
What you describe is along the same lines. The stats and skills and such just serve to show what you might be better at than someone else and not just the only things you can do.
Remember, there is still a die roll involved and the person with a +7 in sone skill has the same possibility of rolling a 1 as the person with a -3 has of rolling a 20. Half the fun in the game is trying some weird stuff and going “Wow, I don’t believe that worked!” or, “Boy, that was a dumb move!”
As a game-related sing goes “Take a chance, roll the dice!”
Great video. I am glad you understand how to blend OSR and 5E.
Great video. It rehashes many of the professor’s themes on what makes his games work for him, but this time he does it with a force and flare that hits it out of the park. Plus Conan.
Thanks for the video. Will use this as part of an intro for my science students new (and old) to roleplaying games.
I just stumbled on to your page, I love your commentary and insight! I have been running 3d6 rules lite intuitive home brew games for years. I'm so glad to find out that I'm not alone. I will keep watching, please keep up the great work !
New to your channel. I know I'm 2 years behind but.. You are so funny man, I love your humour and the way you speak. I have learned so much watching your back catalogue. Very informative and entertaining indeed. Cheers.
Dude, so many times when listening to your observations and advice, I'm nodding my head in agreement or mumbling: "yep, yep, forgot that. Next time...next time." It's like you're reading my mind (not a good thing most of the time O_o), but you have a way of putting things that my players appreciate. As I've said before, I'm not a DnDer, but I am an OSR guy via a Mini-6 variant, and this approach is right up my alley. It makes for memorable games that are exciting, fast, and full of color, and players get adventuring done!
That said, I do find consistency to be helpful in speeding things up for both GM & Player, and so I try to make sure that my Attribute/Skill VS TN calls are fairly uniform. I want my players to get to a point wherein they don't ask: "What do I roll?" or "Could I roll my X?", streamlining things even further, and leaving more room for description and narrative.
This was great! A big eye-opener for my players (and to a degree, myself). We've already started to retrofit our game with the "Replacing Hit Points" and now they're wanting to streamline their character sheets and take even more ownership of the game. Thanks Professor Dungeonmaster!
This is why I am liking Savage Worlds skill system at first glance, we are making characters Friday.
The simple target number of 4 for almost all rolls makes things easy.
As the DM I just add difficulty modifiers. -2 hard, -4 very hard, +2 easy, +4 very easy
Strong start pdm and solid advice. Thanks for all you do
I hand write/draw my character sheets after seeing Runehammer talk about it. it also reduces the amount of loose paper and digital distractions at the table.
Thanks Professor, the Conan part was pure gold!
I came to same realization about character sheets a few years ago, great video professor!
My favorite system is RuneQuest and it is very much skill based. I'm guilty as charged about thinking if it's not on my character sheet I can't do it... I'm definitely going to take this to heart. Thank you Professor.
The cinematic approach is critical. How many action movies focus on the character's special skills? Very few, even if they have then, the hero is dumped into a situation where they have to improvise the solution. Most of the great action films, the hero is grabbing a weapon or prop from the room and then acting. Even if they have a weapon, they will run out of ammo and have to find something to attack the next foe with. Even wizards are usually presented with situations that they have to improvise magic for rather than spam fireballs all movie long.
How many action movies focus on the characters' special skills? None (well, not really, fight scene tend to suggest what the characters are good at, but let's say it's like that).
How many shonens mangas and animes do that? ALL OF THEM. And they are pretty freaking cool.
Also, are we *sure* RPGs should feel more like movies? RPGs tend to add a bit of the chaos of real people trying to solve the problem in front of them, while movies and books tend to tell everything more neatly.
Others mentioned this puts a lot of onus on the DM to do the math in their head. One great helper is using a success gradient like in the Quest RPG, where there are different levels of failure. Then it really starts to feel like failing isn't a death sentence.
I encourage players add to the scenery. Even if I didn't specifically describe how the room is lit, for example, a player could say there's a chandelier in the bar and swing from it, or take a torch off the wall to burn an enemy. I have mature players and haven't had to veto yet
"Arrows of Redundancy" I LOLed hard.
Classes are also a bit of a limiter here, too. I'm writing my own game for this reason (among others).
The idea of the GM handling the character sheet and improving it according to the players actions has appeal, but makes more GM pressure.
I agree 100%, and honestly in the next campaign I think I'm gonna strip out classes completely. Players will start out with next to nothing like they should and won't become basically gods at level 3. They can just tell me what they'd LIKE to be, meaning somebody can say they want to focus on melee with swords, shields, or whatever. Another player can say they'd like to focus on magic. As the game progresses, they take on tasks to EARN those abilities and spells, instead of just being handed everything simply for existing.
skill based systems have their own flaws just as class based systems do.
you'd do well to research the benefits and misgivings of both spectrums of character creation in order to create the system that you really want.
@@remixtheidiot5771 Oh, I most certainly have. Contemplating my best personal approach for a couple decades.
@@ElfLady if you dont mind sharing what are drawbacks skill based systems?
@@OnlineSarcasmFails Skill based systems don't have as much structure to them, and their openness is often a deterrent for some. There is often a lot more thought that goes into character development, so it takes players committed to the game. Also, many require more math, which some find frustrating.
Honestly, I love skill based games over class based, as there is more nuance to character creation and development. Also, I love math.
Love how you say it all right at the beginning. “Tell them what you’re going to say. Say it. Then tell them what you told them.” Toast masters kiss
This video was instantly sent to all my players. Love your videos.
This discourse reminds me of a combat I have run a while back in 5e. One of the players had a Lightning Gauntlet (iirc) and a bag of ball bearings. He decided to throw the ball bearings at a cluster of enemies and cast Lightning at the ball bearings. There is no skill that tells you to do that, and there is no ruling about it, but I accepted and gave him Inspiration because that move was awesome. I want to encourage thinking outside of the box
as my D&D group's GM, i can confidently say that we prefer "Doofus with a big head and a binder" over "living breathing thinking computer"
I think they want to compete, but there is a lot of pride there in the product they are making. The VTT is VERY good and I think they think people will just choose it because it's good. 2024 will be interesting.
I LOVE your Conan the Utilitarian characterization! Put a smile on my face.
I did an experiment with 5 groups of mostly beginners : Play without character sheet. As the GM, I had their sheet and managed them in the players stead, all for a homebrew Pokémon or heroic-fantasy game.
And it was a blast.
Cons : Some aspects where sometime not really enjoyed by the players in the beginning, like not knowing their character health, but once discussed and reasonned ("IRL you don't know your accurate HP, you know you're 'fine but could be better'"), it became second nature.
Pros : Player freedom. They were proposition at the table that only experimented player would do. Example : In a bar brawl with a fire breathing salamander, a PC grabbed a bottle of alcohol to throw in the throat of the beast to make the fire stay there and not spew. Fun idea !
Since then, I do minimal to no character sheet. The players just have an inventory now. And I have marks on HP gauge to say "barely hurt", "hurt", "badly hurt" or the like (and a specific HP management system, but it's a whole other story). ICRPG is a good place to grab ideas for such a playstyle, the earlier the edition the more LOOT oriented the game is, and RUNEHAMMER YT channel is full of good ideas around this concepts.
IMO the REAL bad thing of having huge crunchy character sheets is the time we take to fill it, it's hard to keep´a new player entertained enough to finish the damn 5e sheet. I can barely focus enough to pick my spells (I HATE PICKING UP SPELLS) that's why whenever i GM i use my own sheet, no proficiency, no fluff, just stats, special skills and the spells are chosen with a dice roll on a pre made list (also, cantrips shouldn't deal damage so all the cantrips in my games are the utility ones).
I feel your pain.
Step 1) Write a (very brief one sentence background)
"Rikkard grew up in Hommlet, the son of a butcher. He eventually joined the kings army and became an adventurer after his tour."
Step 2) Draw on that story for "Things you can do".
"My dad was a butcher, I worked with him before the army, can I skin the owlbear?"
"In the battle of Phandelver our unit had to ambush the enemy, the underbrush is similar so I will sneak through the same way."
"Well in the kings army it was customary for the enlisted men to share a portion of the spoils with the officers to get in their good graces. I bet we can bribe that Captain to let us through."
As a DM award players with auto successes or advantage or whatever for this kinda thing that has little to do with their character sheet.
As soon as I saw the title of this video, I had a knowing smile on my face.
This is why in my product, the Quick & Dirty RPG System, players have a character profile (not a character sheet). The central part of it is their short biography blurb and their approach dice, well-being dice, and tools surround it. There are no skill lists nor racial abilities by default, because that stuff is inferred from what the player filled in the profile. It may not be OSR in its rules fundamentals, but I'd say it's OSR-esque in its methodology of play (the conversation between the GM and the players).
Going back to the video, character sheets are a reflection of the game system at large, which are the prisons on a more meta level. Since 3e and onward, the sentiment has become "if the rules don't say that you can, then you can't." It fosters gamer brain, which is hyper-fixated on min-maxing within a closed system and kills the dramatic thought process, IMO. This is a trajectory that makes WOTC rake in the profits and is something I oppose.
This is exactly what i needed to see. I'm pretty tired with all these options in 5e. I like that Cinematic Storytelling you talk about! Simple straight forward and exciting!
Wow this needed to be said for a long time! Thanks!
This is an amazing approach to gaming. I am presently playing a deliberately more "high res" game (Infinity, 2d20 System) based on a Tabletop Mini game focused on small squads of elite units in Black Ops type missions, so this doesn't apply precisely as much, but when I'm ever in doubt, I stop sweating the specifics, and "homebrew" my own solutions to make the game as fun as possible, so even in a distinctly "high res" game, this still entirely applies!
This is probably your best video on this subject. I love the Pathfinder 1e ruleset, but I think in the future I might use them as guidelines rather than a must for players to have. In other words, when a player wants to do something, I just compare to the appropriate feat. It helps me, the DM to adjudicate what difficulty to give it. I would rather be consistent than arbitrary.
I very much like the concept. And you have some great examples. I do go to the character sheet for specifics (looking at the "doing math at the table" part); but this is mainly combat for me as many of my players are not quick at mental math. I'm a bit torn on the sheet as a tool for starting players. When you give most people too many options (you can do anything) they suffer from Choice Overload. This can result in decision paralysis or even de-motivation because of too many options. I believe that is where the sheet comes in, "sure you CAN do anything, but what are you 'good at' or what 'comes natural' for you?"
You bring an awesome and different perspective on gaming that I love! Don't agree with everything but gets me to challenge my approach to rules and general mechanics...
My question I'd love to hear your take on is... How do you handle overland travel in general? I struggle with making travel dangerous but also not bog the game down with excessive combat?
For 1st Edition A D & D Gary Gygax introduced Secondary Proficiencies as an OPTION, one per PC (maybe two if the DM was soft).
I liked how Aftermath added Talents e.g. Athletic, Artistic, Mechanical, etc. just a handful, you chose to favor one over another and overall these gave a tone to ones PC.
Exactly. The game lies within the interactions between players and referee. The game is not within the pages of the rulebook or on the character sheet.
It sounds like you're describing the 7th Sea system. There's no real limit on the actions you can take and the more flair you put into it the better chance you have of success (as I recall anyway).
Great advice! One thing I have done is use penalties or disadvantage when players use the same moves, attacks or spells. In Ninjas & Superspies, martial artists might have a dozen moves, but they tended to use the most powerful all of the time. So the first time they judo throw an attacker +1 against a martial artist because it is a surprise, advantage against a non-martial artist. The second time -1 against a martial artist, no bonus against a normal person. The third time is with disadvantage, because they are expecting it. But simplifying the character sheet makes this even easier because then players can get creative and I can just assign a situational difficulty instead of having to explain why head butting an 8ft tall opponent isn't as easy and doesn't work as well as the move described in the book.
Your Conan impersonation had me in stitches! See what I did there? You've offered a lot of good advice, but this is the one my particular group will likely get the best milage from. I can't wait to see what they come up with once I free them!
That's what I loved about Knave when I found out about it in your last video. The only limitations (sort of) that players have are the tools they are carrying, which is reasonable. You don't need a skill to shoot a crossbow, you just need a crossbow, and it'll be easier the more dexterous you are. It might not be perfectly representative of real life, but it's good enough for a roleplaying game.
Have you ever done a demo of how you run games? It'd be cool to see all of your advice in action.