I live in Australia and a “software tweak” isn’t going to cut it. Tomorrow is going to be 42C so active liquid cooling is a must. It sounds like Nissan is clutching at straws if this is the best they can do. Too little too late.
Just sold my 2018 40kWh Leaf. It was soo slow last summer when taking a 500km long trip. The trip took 3.5 hours longer than my 27kWh Kia Soul EV. Switching to a 2019 Kia Niro EV.
@@wobby1516Have yet to receive it. 2 more weeks before it's prepped and ready. But the test drive I had was awesome. Alot more comfortable, practical and longer range.
Foxor83 As a previous leaf owner your the best person to indorse a Nero EV as you’ve been able to make the comparison. I wish you all the best with your new car and in two weeks time will be joining the EV revolution with a new Hyundai Kona. I preferred the size of the Nero but when I ordered my Kona 6 months ago it wasn’t and still isn’t available in the UK. Still it’s just the two of us so rear passengers won’t matter too much. We are getting very excited, like a couple of geriatric school kids. Happy days.
Niro looks great. There just aren't any at dealers in my area but I went and sat in the PHEV version and it seems to have all the right things in it and be a practical small family car with decent legroom and a good boot (trunk). (Rear legroom in the Kona is poor, IMV). Waiting to see an actual EV version but we think it's probably our next car.
Own a 2018 Nissan Leaf. Had it for almost 10 months and almost FC exclusively and have not noticed any battery degradation and I live in hot and sunny Florida. Drive it like you own it and it is one fine auto. Wound recommend it to anyone.
I just don't trust any car that doesn't have any thermal management system . You can't control temperature for sure and that's the main reason why you need it. I think there are far better options like Kia or Hyundai, price and range wise
Wow 10 months, and you haven’t noticed any battery degradation. That’s too early to make any judgement. What is the battery health BTW? I’d expect it to still be in the high 90’s particuarly if you don’t rapid charge or cycle the battery a lot.
@@mondotv4216 I live in the UK and own a 2013 leaf which I purchased in 2015 when it had already done 15000 miles. It's now done a total of 43000 miles and so far still has all 12 bars, so I guess the degradation is less than 15% to date.
joseph joseph well it does seem from that study I read that the 30kWh LEAF doesn’t lose its first bar until somewhere between 78% and 85%. You can easily check your SOH with LEAF spy and an OBD adapter. The way Nissan is using the bar system seems misleading - 12bars - according to my math it should lose the first bar around 91.5%. SOH. One thing to bear in mind is that while mileage is a factor in battery degradation, things like high temperature driving and supercharging, hot climates, charging to 100% a lot and even the full to empty cycles all contribute. Even age is a factor.So given identical driving and charging patterns a 5 yo battery will have slightly more degradation than a 3 yo battery. To make the battery last longer if you can limit charging to about 80% that will help a lot.
Lily Ruby Yes, I totally agree with you. I sort of understood Rapidgate, but not like I do now. My 2011 Leaf seems to charge too slow at any level, but at EVGO rapid chargers it’s $0.20 or now $0.15 per minute, making my long distant commute very expensive. I really like the Leaf and all EVs in general, so this new info should help me in getting a good deal when I (turn over a new Leaf) Lol. Thanks Nikki and your team!😍
I agree with your answer, Nikki. If leasing, take the risk the battery will degrade faster with the new software. If already purchased, don't take the risk the battery will degrade faster with the new software. I would add a third thought, if I may, which you did not say. If thinking about purchasing, look elsewhere to a company that has active liquid cooling. A car is too expensive a purchase to be taking risks like Rapidgate or battery degradation. Maybe people with money to burn can take the risks, but most of us can not.
The few long trips most people do would probably not affect degradation much. Nissan would not have made the changes if there was any risk for them getting a lot of warranty issues and costs.
@@ElectricSwede I do not agree. I own a 2016 first generatiom Leaf and its SoH is below 82 % with only 41000 km . And I only do 50 km a day. Battery degradation is and will be an issue with any Nissan without Tms
@@sergigorchs7329 and I'm guessing you're in a cool country. Here it's been over 40 C every day for weeks. I saw Tesla Bjorn having problems at temperatures lower than I ever see. (But still above freezing, so not the accuracy issue Nikki mentioned) His battery temperatures were more than 30 above ambient. For me, that's 75-80 C.
@@sergigorchs7329 Going kind of short distance and maybe often have the SOC high might be worse than a few trips now and then with high temperature. I have in the just over a month I had the Leaf rapid charged about 15 times and got the heat up til about 47c several times. Several of the charged where at the same day. According to LeafSpy I have SOH 99.29% today. It started at 99.54. I have driven about 3000km. My guess (cause we are all guessing here..) is that they had a software that was overcautious and that it will not affect the battery so much that it will be a problem. Warranty is still the same and they are going to have margins and not risk costs.
Phoned my local Nissan dealer 3 days ago inquiring when I could come in for the software update. They didn’t have clue what I was talking about. I guess their internal comms is as slow as their app!! Oh, I lease btw, so hell yeah I’ll take the “fix” once my lot get their act together.
I hope this is a fix and not a shell game with sensor data. As an owner of a 2012 Leaf with a replaced battery that is 2 years old and now has a health of 82% and dropping monthly I would not buy a Nissan Leaf until they get thermal management. NOBODY who is producing electric vehicles uses passive cooling EXCEPT Nissan, shame on Nissan.
@@Koda14 we've owned it a year. SOH was 90.5% Aug 4th 2018 and is now 83% Jan 2019. That's 1% per month. Lost a bar already. It's only charged to 80% every night. We use it daily for errands. We are in central FL it's hot for sure.
@@Toaster-v1z Nissan said it was the new lizard battery. We've owned it a year. SOH was 90.5% Aug 4th 2018 and is now 83% Jan 2019. That's 1% per month. Lost a bar already. It's only charged to 80% every night. We use it daily for errands. We are in central FL it's hot for sure. Not fast charged at most 2-3 times.
I own a 2018 Leaf. Long live the hope that "Rapid Gate" is fixed! I'm really sick of seeing the dozens of videos dumping on the Leaf over this issue. Prolly couldn't get a plug nickel for my car now thanks to this "issue". I've made one long distance (360 miles/570 km) trip over Christmas with NO issues (it was quite cold outside). As for the rest of the time, I drive for Uber with the Leaf and it is absolutely awesome as a workhorse. As Lynyrd Skynyrd once said, "Rapidgate? It don't bother me", or something like that.
The best testers are the commercial drivers (taxi's and delivery drivers) who do big mileage and charge often. However don't know how you can reach out to them.
It's nice to think they did some engineering research or found a genuine bug in the software, but it's also likely that they are steering a carefully calculated course between improved sales from the rumour that "RapidGate is Fixed" and the cost of occasional warranty battery replacements when the car is pushed too hard. I hope I get the software update for mine. I don't do long trips frequently. When I do, I don't want to be held up by slow charging, and any hot battery events will be rare enough (in the UK) that severe degradation shouldn't happen soon. Anyway the evidence reported on TH-cam shows that the updated LEAF still does some charge rate throttling when hot, so it's not going to be like the 30kWh models which lost range quite quickly with heavy use and apparently unrestricted charging. My next car won't be a Nissan though. By the time I trade in my LEAF there'll be plenty of choice and better value available.
All this does is alter the bms settings to reduce tolerance settings this will increase temps overall with multiple charges it does nothing to protect battery heath
Hi Nikki. Nissan seem to be struggling with software issues. My wifes 2016 30kWh Leaf has to get a firmware upgrade to fix a known issue where the computer underestimates the available battery capacity from 100% charge. This results in the GOM showing 160km at 100% which is about 80km less than it did when it was new. Battery very low warnings come at about 125km. We havnt tried it but I believe there is at least 35km still available at that stage (Ireland @ 4 Deg C) Unlike Tesla with their over the air updates, we have to drive to the nearest dealer and hope they have done the training course to resolve this issue.
From what i've seen mainly from Bjorn's channel when he tested the updated version, is may be rapidgate is fixed to allow a higher charge rate regardless of battery temp but with this update the battery temp went higher 50Cish. The other thing was the difference between the maximum and minimum temperature was over 10C difference, dose that mean there is some kind of passive cooling that reaches some of the battery but not all hence the difference? surly that cant be good in the long run.
Nikki, you commented on Leaf battery degradation and referred to kona/niro. What can we expect for battery degradation on the 64 kwh pack? You mentioned tapering down to 90% within some period of time. Would that be 100,000 or so? Less? What are your thoughts? Thanks, as always.
Nikki, have you had any better luck in getting anyone at Nissan to describe what the official name/description of the patch is, and what sort of problem description the customer would have to give to get the patch applied?
It fixes the second fast charge but heats up the battery to the first red dot. Third time fastcharging (in summer) is slow as usual. I had a beta version of the software since juni last year.
Probably not rapid gate issue here. I EVgo DC charged my 24KWh 2015 nissan leaf from 25% to 50% in 10 mins. Attaining a newly estimated range of 47 miles. Temperature raised two bars from usual. And though I was 11 miles away, I narrowly arrived home with dash indicator flashing low battery. Is there such thing as “dirty electricity” with higher KWh DC charging, similar to dirty AC from EMF? My thinking is that battery management reading may off because of the quality of charge it received. . My battery health has 10 bars remaining. Just got the car a month ago. Our first EV and its proving difficult to gauge what they call “real world driving miles” even with battery % and other estimators. Seems the only real fix to daily anxiety is to ignore the dash and go with an EV that has some three times the capacity for a person’s daily driving. 😬
Hi Nikki the 2018 Leaf that was driven long distances, was it quick charged for most of that? Also what was the actual mileage. This is critical information because one year and 20,000 miles and seven percent loss quick charging most of it any battery system is going to be under strain 7% would not be out of the blue. But if it was 1 year 20K and level 2 90% then that would be something to worry about. Maybe its not common knowledge yet, but quick charging a non-thermally managed battery 60%+ of the time is a recipe for disaster in the medium term for any battery system thermally managed or not. Normal degradation should average 2% per year on level 2 90% total charging 12-15,000 miles per year over 5-10 years. These are the numbers I would expect but 7% in the first year. Majority fast charging is the equivalent of "rode hard and put away wet", it's going to hurt sooner rather than later.
If you couldn't afford solar, could an alternative be that you get a house battery (eg. Tesla Powerwall) and get on a Time Of Use (TOU) plan where electricity is super cheap at night, then set up your house battery (and EV if you have one) to charge at night when electricity is cheapest, then run your house off the battery during the day?
I agree about your view of caution about the update if I owned the car. The effect of the degradation to the battery on the long term with the update is not a known. Furthermore I have a distrust of Nissan and will not purchase any of their products.
Great info, though I would still feel better if Nissan was using active cooling. To be honest, I hear that rapid charging in general is not really good for your battery's long-term life. Even once a day will diminish your battery's capacity compared to just normal charging degradation. This is yet another reason we need solid state batteries ASAP, as they can handle super rapid charging (10x normal rates, at least) without breaking a sweat.
(Correcting an iffy sensor reading, I mean.) Temperature-related historical battery degradation makes me very skeptical of owning a LEAF here in Austin TX, even though it strikes me as an otherwise-impressive EV!
My next car will be a 2018 Leaf, probably next year. For my use I wouldn't need the patch as I hardly ever do more than 1 rapid charge a day on my 2014 Leaf. So I am going to watch this closely to see what happens. My current Leaf has lost 3% in 4 years after 31000 miles, 7% in a year is a bit scary.
So . The truth is that Nissan knew about the problems caused by the lack of a thermal managment system. That' s why the software was so conservative to try avoid battery degradation. Now what will happen to the battery ? Will it last 8 years ? And what beyond that ? Will it be cleaner, grenner, smarter to have to change a car or a battery every 8 years ? . Nissan will no longer be my choose, better any other with tms.
Nikki, great stuff. Question, why do you sometimes call cars "examples"? (such as at 27 seconds). Perhaps this is an example (pun intended) of the difference between UK and US English, but version or iteration seem like better word choices. Anyway, keep doing what you like.
There is a third option which is that Nissan is just allowing you to overhead the battery, because they don't care if your battery degrades prematurely, if it stops you complaining about charging speed.
When a company is not transparent about issues and solution it does not build confidence. I am actively looking for an electric car and I tend to keep my cars for eight years or more, however it is a substantial investment and while I like Nissan as a company and have had their ICE cars, I am not lining up for a leaf. I am waiting for the opportunity to sit in the eNiro and Kona to see which one I will order.
I really, really wanted ti like the new Leaf, but even if the battery issue is ‘fixed’, I remain cautious. Also the greatly increased range offered by the Kona makes that the logical choice...
@@Koda14 Today is the hottest day on record (it got up to 47.7) but moving to a cooler area would only be a temporary solution anyway given what's happening to the global climate.
I think in temperate climates below 30°C in summer it shouldn't be an issue. In countries with higher temps than that you would be better with thermal management to stop accelerated battery degradation.
WoodyJim Plenty of experts will tell you that heat absolutely kills batteries. Watch Bjørn’s videos to see that even in much cooler conditions, battery temps rapidly increase which will certainly lead to rapid degradation. I would not touch a Leaf. Active (liquid) thermal management is an absolute must!
WoodyJim I think there were problems in the UK which rarely gets above 30C. These were long journeys with repeated rapid charging. This might solve this problem. Though why don’t Nissan develop over the air software updates this would eliminate the need to go to dealers for the software update.
Bjorn Nyland in Norway has been looking at Leaf charging rate vs. battery temps as reported by LeafSpy software (readings from pack temp sensors) In a recent video post: th-cam.com/video/lJMJNEbPfAY/w-d-xo.html at about 00:50 into the video he shows a summary plot of the original software charging rate vs. temp and the updated charging rate vs battery temp from recently sold 40KWh Leaf’s with the s/w update. In his video recording some of the testing with long/multiple fast charge travel it was clear that, even in winter temps below freezing, that battery pack temp was decreasing only very slowly during 55-60 mph highway driving. The car’s battery isn’t cooling notably faster, Nissan has just made rate of charging more permissive for fast charging at high battery temps. For example, at 45 C (~113 F), the original BMS control software allowed a charging rate of about 22 kW (half best speed) and after the update, about 30-31 kW (2/3rds best speed). According to Nissan docs, the production process and composition of the cells has been updated, but does that make the battery more tolerant OVER THE LONG TERM to higher temps?? Given the lack of info that Nissan has volunteered, there’s no knowing. I’m with you Nicki, if you’re leasing, it’s no big deal. If your buying new, cautious use. THe hard case is if you want to buy a used 40+ kWh Leaf. What would we do, bring LeafSpy on a phone and plug into the OBD2 port to get a read of full capacity of the battery? Or is there a way of telling if it’s a “12-bar” Gen2+ Leaf ..... Sent from my iPad
I really think we need to strongly state the Nissan Leaf is only to be considered as COLD weather, commuting cars. I have met (online) so many people whos Leafs have been ruined by less than moderate use. These cars will only be around for 8 years in a useful capacity if they are used for road trips and in temperate to hot climates. if you don't drive much and you live in cold weather then its okay. otherwise these cars are getting ruined way to fast. I have wanted to buy used leaf, but I think doing so would be foolish for me in San Antonio TX. as such. I have just switched to driving as little as possible, using public transportation, and uber. If I were to buy a 2014 Nissan leaf, I would not feel comfortable driving it the distances I need. my intermittent (once a week or so) commute is 50 miles roundtrip plus I regularly do errands on that long commute. I would only feel comfortable charging and discharging a leaf from 20 to 80 or there abouts. That does not leave me enough range. especially when its 107 degrees and 100% humidity and I am in traffic. it can take an hour and a half to do the 25 miles if I cannot time it right.
Great news item. I'm surprised that Nissan haven't done a bigger song n dance about fixing the issue that has given the car such a black mark against it's name! Let's hope they haven't substituted rapid gate for early battery degredation.. out of the pan into the fire? If it has actually fixed the issue then what a leap forward for Nissan. Shame no over the air update though! #DegreGate?
Nissan leafs resale values are already lower the other EVs & also pull down the perceived general resale value of EV's. The one big exeption in resale value is Tesla of course. I presume this software ( no hardware fix where I believe the real problem lies) 'fix' fixes the short term but messes up the long term battery life & resale value. Nissan seems to never get it fully right . Does not listen & learn what buyers want/ need / want fixed in future cars. With the hyundai Kona ( more range, faster charging, better price) scaling up production fast it runs a real risk of becoming a dumb buy in future buyers eyes. When Tesla model 3 comes out in Europe it might be the knockout moment.
Slight 'boo boo' @1.15 where you say the thermal management is designed to keep the batteries warm instead of cool (or is it me mis hearing?) Apart from that, Nissan has lost out as now looking at the others which all look better!
You can't fix a hardware issue with a software update. The settings were done to protect the battery from rapid degradation so there is a high chance that degradation will increase.
I found this interesting data on the 30kWh v 24kWh LEAF. pushevs.com/2018/03/20/nissan-leaf-battery-degradation-data-24-vs-30-kwh-batteries/. Still seems like there are plenty of examples of high battery degradation in a fairly small sample size (208 30kWh). There’s also some examples of ver low degradation (still in the high 90s). Looking at the degradation curve “mean” seems worse for the 30kWh LEAFs. It seems there’ll be plenty down at, or below 50% by the time they hit 8 years. So I would say the 2018 40kWh LEAF is an enormous gamble. We won’t have definitive data for another 12 months.
Our 2018 Leaf has its first service at the end of February, and as its a lease, we will have the software update. In 3 years we hand it back. We had a Zoe previously, which had a maximum charge rate less than the Leaf's tapered off rate. And because the battery was smaller, you had to charge more often anyway. It appears the Hyundai Kona, Kia e-Niro and 2019 Kia Soul may have issues with needing longer to charge than expected too.
Fred Hobbs currently Nissan UK are saying there is no software update for UK owners. Only this week they emailed me this “I am unable to comment on other countries in Europe and what software has been provided to them to apply to their vehicles. The vehicles are preforming as expected, and therefore any software released in the UK or other Parts of Europe is not a “fix” for the rapid charging issue that is talked about, there may be reports online that this has resolved this concern but I need to make it quite clear, there is not a “fix” as there is no fault. The new vehicles released have a new battery pack and power train and therefore are not the same vehicle that you have purchased so the software applied to these vehicles is not relevant to this conversation. I can assure you that we are not withholding an update from you, each country operates differently and things such as weather conditions and temperatures will depend on how software will take to the vehicles in each market, if and when software is released we will share this information with our customers.”
I think Nissan aren't all that bothered. They just want you to have the car for the warranty and trade in for another. It makes no economic sense to them for you to keep a car after it's been paid off.
I wouldn't buy a new 2018/19 Leaf at all. If the new management solves both charge rates and battery longevity, it may make a Leaf an option for 2020+.
Nissan Uk are maintaining stance that there is no software update for UK owners. Repeat NO update for UK owners. Many of us have been in contact with Nissan UK for many months on this matter. I received this latest email from them on Tuesday “I am unable to comment on other countries in Europe and what software has been provided to them to apply to their vehicles. The vehicles are preforming as expected, and therefore any software released in the UK or other Parts of Europe is not a “fix” for the rapid charging issue that is talked about, there may be reports online that this has resolved this concern but I need to make it quite clear, there is not a “fix” as there is no fault. The new vehicles released have a new battery pack and power train and therefore are not the same vehicle that you have purchased so the software applied to these vehicles is not relevant to this conversation. I can assure you that we are not withholding an update from you, each country operates differently and things such as weather conditions and temperatures will depend on how software will take to the vehicles in each market, if and when software is released we will share this information with our customers.” Maybe Nissan UK will relent in the face of what’s happening in the rest of the world, maybe they will not. On this and other matters - like the fact that UK Leafs delivered today have a Sat Nav with mapping data that is only up to date as at Qtr 2 2016. Yes 3 years old
Toby Jackson Yes Nissan UK seem to give two fingers to UK Leaf owners. Not only by denying this Rapidgate update but by providing 3 years old (Qtr 2 2016) mapping data on a Leaf delivered today. Want up to date maps? I’ve asked and they said Sure but that’ll cost you £89. I asked when can I have them? Don’t know say Nissan UK as they currently do not have any plans to buy the updated mapping data from HERE (the provider) . After all the last time they purchased this data was almost 3 years ago. Nissan UK really couldn’t care any less about UK Leaf owners.
HOT OFF THE PRESS noon today I received this email from Nissan UK Thank you for your continue patience, I understand since my last update there has been further media reference to the software update, I can confirm that this information was not released by Nissan GB Ltd I can however now confirm that a software update is due to be released imminently, at this point in time I am unable to provide an exact date but this is likely to be in the next week or two. We have received this update from Nissan Europe, but as there are many factors that affect different markets we have to finalise and confirm this internally before being able to release it, we also need to ensure that our dealer network who will be apply the software are fully aware of what is required to ensure this process is carried out smoothly. As soon as the final checks and clarifications are done I will provide you with an update to exactly when this will be released and assist you if required in getting your vehicle booked in
MondoTV chalk and cheese mate. You can not compare aLeaf to a Model 3. Just look at the costs. My Leaf cost £27000. You can’t get a Model 3 in the UK. In the US the Leaf starts at 29,000. The Tesla starts at 44,000. That’s a lots of extra cash. For the price of a Model 3 I’d expect a Butler to turn up, clean the car and install the software.
QPR Fan since '67 I was poking fun at the corporate bureaucracy of Nissan? I also hardly think OTA updates are a major price differential? Just an innovation that any automaker could have made if they weren’t so entrenched in existing systems. Buy a new car every 4-5 years to get the latest tech.
I would not want to buy a used 40kWh Leaf. Disabling the software designed to protect the battery does not solve the real problem of inadequate battery cooling.
Not necessarily. It just means that it was not meant for long trips, which admittedtly sucks, but does not render the car completely useless. It is a matter of statistics used in the internal reasoning of the company to make decisions, that they then do not state publicly. The bigger the company, the more likely they are to conceal details of their product, in fear of losing sales or face. When the facts come to light, they will lose sales and face.
There's no real difference between bugs and poorly designed features. A feature is just a well documented bug. Anyway strange as it may seem, in the electronics industry it is pretty normal to fix what seems to be a hardware problem by improving the software, so Nissan may well have solved the problem.
I live in Australia and a “software tweak” isn’t going to cut it. Tomorrow is going to be 42C so active liquid cooling is a must. It sounds like Nissan is clutching at straws if this is the best they can do. Too little too late.
42C!!! I have been plowing snow tonight.
45C in Adelaide!
39 in the hunter yesterday,today seem a little cooler thou,but i do agree it need better cooling.
For us here in America, let me translate: 45 degrees centigrade is about 113 degrees fahrenheit, 42C is about 108F.
The dealers are charging over $100 to install the software update!! Ridiculous
Just sold my 2018 40kWh Leaf. It was soo slow last summer when taking a 500km long trip. The trip took 3.5 hours longer than my 27kWh Kia Soul EV. Switching to a 2019 Kia Niro EV.
How are you finding the Kia Nero by comparison with the leaf.
@@wobby1516Have yet to receive it. 2 more weeks before it's prepped and ready. But the test drive I had was awesome. Alot more comfortable, practical and longer range.
Niro looks like a solid choice!
Foxor83 As a previous leaf owner your the best person to indorse a Nero EV as you’ve been able to make the comparison. I wish you all the best with your new car and in two weeks time will be joining the EV revolution with a new Hyundai Kona. I preferred the size of the Nero but when I ordered my Kona 6 months ago it wasn’t and still isn’t available in the UK. Still it’s just the two of us so rear passengers won’t matter too much. We are getting very excited, like a couple of geriatric school kids. Happy days.
Niro looks great. There just aren't any at dealers in my area but I went and sat in the PHEV version and it seems to have all the right things in it and be a practical small family car with decent legroom and a good boot (trunk). (Rear legroom in the Kona is poor, IMV).
Waiting to see an actual EV version but we think it's probably our next car.
Own a 2018 Nissan Leaf. Had it for almost 10 months and almost FC exclusively and have not noticed any battery degradation and I live in hot and sunny Florida. Drive it like you own it and it is one fine auto. Wound recommend it to anyone.
I just don't trust any car that doesn't have any thermal management system . You can't control temperature for sure and that's the main reason why you need it. I think there are far better options like Kia or Hyundai, price and range wise
Wow 10 months, and you haven’t noticed any battery degradation. That’s too early to make any judgement. What is the battery health BTW? I’d expect it to still be in the high 90’s particuarly if you don’t rapid charge or cycle the battery a lot.
@@mondotv4216 I live in the UK and own a 2013 leaf which I purchased in 2015 when it had already done 15000 miles. It's now done a total of 43000 miles and so far still has all 12 bars, so I guess the degradation is less than 15% to date.
joseph joseph well it does seem from that study I read that the 30kWh LEAF doesn’t lose its first bar until somewhere between 78% and 85%. You can easily check your SOH with LEAF spy and an OBD adapter. The way Nissan is using the bar system seems misleading - 12bars - according to my math it should lose the first bar around 91.5%. SOH. One thing to bear in mind is that while mileage is a factor in battery degradation, things like high temperature driving and supercharging, hot climates, charging to 100% a lot and even the full to empty cycles all contribute. Even age is a factor.So given identical driving and charging patterns a 5 yo battery will have slightly more degradation than a 3 yo battery. To make the battery last longer if you can limit charging to about 80% that will help a lot.
MondoTV latest Soh for battery is 96.8 and I use Fc charges twice a week.
As i said on TB channel, it seems more like a patch than a fix. Let's see in the summer.
Very good reporting on this issue, you make it easy to understand. Great video!
Lily Ruby Yes, I totally agree with you. I sort of understood Rapidgate, but not like I do now. My 2011 Leaf seems to charge too slow at any level, but at EVGO rapid chargers it’s $0.20 or now $0.15 per minute, making my long distant commute very expensive. I really like the Leaf and all EVs in general, so this new info should help me in getting a good deal when I (turn over a new Leaf) Lol. Thanks Nikki and your team!😍
I agree with your answer, Nikki.
If leasing, take the risk the battery will degrade faster with the new software.
If already purchased, don't take the risk the battery will degrade faster with the new software.
I would add a third thought, if I may, which you did not say.
If thinking about purchasing, look elsewhere to a company that has active liquid cooling.
A car is too expensive a purchase to be taking risks like Rapidgate or battery degradation.
Maybe people with money to burn can take the risks, but most of us can not.
Owners shouldn' t be forced to deal with that kind of decisions. A car of that price should be used as it is advertised. Fast charging included.
The few long trips most people do would probably not affect degradation much. Nissan would not have made the changes if there was any risk for them getting a lot of warranty issues and costs.
@@ElectricSwede I do not agree. I own a 2016 first generatiom Leaf and its SoH is below 82 % with only 41000 km . And I only do 50 km a day. Battery degradation is and will be an issue with any Nissan without Tms
@@sergigorchs7329 and I'm guessing you're in a cool country. Here it's been over 40 C every day for weeks. I saw Tesla Bjorn having problems at temperatures lower than I ever see. (But still above freezing, so not the accuracy issue Nikki mentioned) His battery temperatures were more than 30 above ambient. For me, that's 75-80 C.
@@sergigorchs7329 Going kind of short distance and maybe often have the SOC high might be worse than a few trips now and then with high temperature. I have in the just over a month I had the Leaf rapid charged about 15 times and got the heat up til about 47c several times. Several of the charged where at the same day. According to LeafSpy I have SOH 99.29% today. It started at 99.54. I have driven about 3000km.
My guess (cause we are all guessing here..) is that they had a software that was overcautious and that it will not affect the battery so much that it will be a problem. Warranty is still the same and they are going to have margins and not risk costs.
Phoned my local Nissan dealer 3 days ago inquiring when I could come in for the software update. They didn’t have clue what I was talking about. I guess their internal comms is as slow as their app!! Oh, I lease btw, so hell yeah I’ll take the “fix” once my lot get their act together.
“Leaf launch event ...”. ... don’t we usually call that Autumn/Fall ?
Same old same old, who is going to trust Nissan now, not me for one and it looks like a few others feel the same.
I really hope they have fixed it. Would be very interesting to see a mid-range player in the market that is reliable.
Thanks Nikki!
I hope this is a fix and not a shell game with sensor data. As an owner of a 2012 Leaf with a replaced battery that is 2 years old and now has a health of 82% and dropping monthly I would not buy a Nissan Leaf until they get thermal management. NOBODY who is producing electric vehicles uses passive cooling EXCEPT Nissan, shame on Nissan.
That sounds bad. I've seen 3 or 4 year old leafs with 50k miles that have only dropped one bar.
@@Koda14 we've owned it a year. SOH was 90.5% Aug 4th 2018 and is now 83% Jan 2019. That's 1% per month. Lost a bar already. It's only charged to 80% every night. We use it daily for errands. We are in central FL it's hot for sure.
@@Toaster-v1z Nissan said it was the new lizard battery. We've owned it a year. SOH was 90.5% Aug 4th 2018 and is now 83% Jan 2019. That's 1% per month. Lost a bar already. It's only charged to 80% every night. We use it daily for errands. We are in central FL it's hot for sure. Not fast charged at most 2-3 times.
@@lifeaccordingtobri That's terrible.
I own a 2018 Leaf. Long live the hope that "Rapid Gate" is fixed! I'm really sick of seeing the dozens of videos dumping on the Leaf over this issue. Prolly couldn't get a plug nickel for my car now thanks to this "issue". I've made one long distance (360 miles/570 km) trip over Christmas with NO issues (it was quite cold outside). As for the rest of the time, I drive for Uber with the Leaf and it is absolutely awesome as a workhorse. As Lynyrd Skynyrd once said, "Rapidgate? It don't bother me", or something like that.
The best testers are the commercial drivers (taxi's and delivery drivers) who do big mileage and charge often. However don't know how you can reach out to them.
Try asking on Facebook maybe.
There is a guy on TH-cam who is a taxi driver with a 40kw leaf 30000 miles in 6 months
This was really helpful xx
I'm more interested in seeing how the longer range version is going to hold up.
It's nice to think they did some engineering research or found a genuine bug in the software, but it's also likely that they are steering a carefully calculated course between improved sales from the rumour that "RapidGate is Fixed" and the cost of occasional warranty battery replacements when the car is pushed too hard.
I hope I get the software update for mine. I don't do long trips frequently. When I do, I don't want to be held up by slow charging, and any hot battery events will be rare enough (in the UK) that severe degradation shouldn't happen soon. Anyway the evidence reported on TH-cam shows that the updated LEAF still does some charge rate throttling when hot, so it's not going to be like the 30kWh models which lost range quite quickly with heavy use and apparently unrestricted charging.
My next car won't be a Nissan though. By the time I trade in my LEAF there'll be plenty of choice and better value available.
All this does is alter the bms settings to reduce tolerance settings this will increase temps overall with multiple charges it does nothing to protect battery heath
Hi Nikki. Nissan seem to be struggling with software issues. My wifes 2016 30kWh Leaf has to get a firmware upgrade to fix a known issue where the computer underestimates the available battery capacity from 100% charge. This results in the GOM showing 160km at 100% which is about 80km less than it did when it was new. Battery very low warnings come at about 125km. We havnt tried it but I believe there is at least 35km still available at that stage (Ireland @ 4 Deg C) Unlike Tesla with their over the air updates, we have to drive to the nearest dealer and hope they have done the training course to resolve this issue.
Has been long explained and tested by TeslaBjorn two weeks ago...It works, with the same doubts about the durability as you have.
Solo v2 was just shown. Are you going to do a driving review in the near future?
From what i've seen mainly from Bjorn's channel when he tested the updated version, is may be rapidgate is fixed to allow a higher charge rate regardless of battery temp but with this update the battery temp went higher 50Cish. The other thing was the difference between the maximum and minimum temperature was over 10C difference, dose that mean there is some kind of passive cooling that reaches some of the battery but not all hence the difference? surly that cant be good in the long run.
Nikki, you commented on Leaf battery degradation and referred to kona/niro. What can we expect for battery degradation on the 64 kwh pack? You mentioned tapering down to 90% within some period of time. Would that be 100,000 or so? Less? What are your thoughts? Thanks, as always.
Nikki, have you had any better luck in getting anyone at Nissan to describe what the official name/description of the patch is, and what sort of problem description the customer would have to give to get the patch applied?
Nissan was ahead of the pack with EVs and seems to have fallen behind with their technology. Damn shame
It fixes the second fast charge but heats up the battery to the first red dot. Third time fastcharging (in summer) is slow as usual. I had a beta version of the software since juni last year.
Probably not rapid gate issue here. I EVgo DC charged my 24KWh 2015 nissan leaf from 25% to 50% in 10 mins. Attaining a newly estimated range of 47 miles. Temperature raised two bars from usual. And though I was 11 miles away, I narrowly arrived home with dash indicator flashing low battery. Is there such thing as “dirty electricity” with higher KWh DC charging, similar to dirty AC from EMF?
My thinking is that battery management reading may off because of the quality of charge it received.
. My battery health has 10 bars remaining. Just got the car a month ago. Our first EV and its proving difficult to gauge what they call “real world driving miles” even with battery % and other estimators. Seems the only real fix to daily anxiety is to ignore the dash and go with an EV that has some three times the capacity for a person’s daily driving. 😬
Also, a stated capacity loss is somewhat defendant on what the BMS is measuring as well. Comparing it to another car might not be valid.
Hi Nikki the 2018 Leaf that was driven long distances, was it quick charged for most of that? Also what was the actual mileage. This is critical information because one year and 20,000 miles and seven percent loss quick charging most of it any battery system is going to be under strain 7% would not be out of the blue. But if it was 1 year 20K and level 2 90% then that would be something to worry about. Maybe its not common knowledge yet, but quick charging a non-thermally managed battery 60%+ of the time is a recipe for disaster in the medium term for any battery system thermally managed or not. Normal degradation should average 2% per year on level 2 90% total charging 12-15,000 miles per year over 5-10 years. These are the numbers I would expect but 7% in the first year. Majority fast charging is the equivalent of "rode hard and put away wet", it's going to hurt sooner rather than later.
If you couldn't afford solar, could an alternative be that you get a house battery (eg. Tesla Powerwall) and get on a Time Of Use (TOU) plan where electricity is super cheap at night, then set up your house battery (and EV if you have one) to charge at night when electricity is cheapest, then run your house off the battery during the day?
You were given a Leaf test vehicle, do you intend to publish a review at some stage?
It was just before CES, so we're working through our backlog! Reviews always take a little longer to produce too. It will happen!
@@transportevolved It'll be interesting to see comparisons between the Leaf and the Bolt.
I agree about your view of caution about the update if I owned the car. The effect of the degradation to the battery on the long term with the update is not a known. Furthermore I have a distrust of Nissan and will not purchase any of their products.
Great info, though I would still feel better if Nissan was using active cooling. To be honest, I hear that rapid charging in general is not really good for your battery's long-term life. Even once a day will diminish your battery's capacity compared to just normal charging degradation. This is yet another reason we need solid state batteries ASAP, as they can handle super rapid charging (10x normal rates, at least) without breaking a sweat.
I’m guessing it’s both: Iffy sensor reading *and* Nissan taking higher risk of degradation.
(Correcting an iffy sensor reading, I mean.) Temperature-related historical battery degradation makes me very skeptical of owning a LEAF here in Austin TX, even though it strikes me as an otherwise-impressive EV!
My next car will be a 2018 Leaf, probably next year. For my use I wouldn't need the patch as I hardly ever do more than 1 rapid charge a day on my 2014 Leaf. So I am going to watch this closely to see what happens. My current Leaf has lost 3% in 4 years after 31000 miles, 7% in a year is a bit scary.
And what is not known is the fix on implication on battery life
So in short Nissan wasn't being honest about the battery cooling from the get go. Ding ding ding Shame shame shame ding ding ding...
I think it's more likely that after a year of data back from cars thanks to the connect EV they have decided to just let the car get a bit warmer.
So . The truth is that Nissan knew about the problems caused by the lack of a thermal managment system. That' s why the software was so conservative to try avoid battery degradation. Now what will happen to the battery ? Will it last 8 years ? And what beyond that ? Will it be cleaner, grenner, smarter to have to change a car or a battery every 8 years ? . Nissan will no longer be my choose, better any other with tms.
Nikki, great stuff. Question, why do you sometimes call cars "examples"? (such as at 27 seconds). Perhaps this is an example (pun intended) of the difference between UK and US English, but version or iteration seem like better word choices. Anyway, keep doing what you like.
How can you prevent Nissan from updating your car’s software, if you’re at the dealer for any other issue?
dlwatib I guess that they wouldn’t want to do anything that might make the battery not last at least until the end of its warranty.
There is a third option which is that Nissan is just allowing you to overhead the battery, because they don't care if your battery degrades prematurely, if it stops you complaining about charging speed.
High mileage is a factor with LEAF degradation. Temperature is the primary factor, driving a lot can raise internal temperatures.
When a company is not transparent about issues and solution it does not build confidence. I am actively looking for an electric car and I tend to keep my cars for eight years or more, however it is a substantial investment and while I like Nissan as a company and have had their ICE cars, I am not lining up for a leaf. I am waiting for the opportunity to sit in the eNiro and Kona to see which one I will order.
Maybe Rapidgate is fixed but will high ( triple digits in F ) sustained ( several months ) temperatures reduce battery life in the 50 kw?
I really, really wanted ti like the new Leaf, but even if the battery issue is ‘fixed’, I remain cautious.
Also the greatly increased range offered by the Kona makes that the logical choice...
Current temperature here right now is 46.8C, so I don't think a Leaf is for me...
@@Koda14 Today is the hottest day on record (it got up to 47.7) but moving to a cooler area would only be a temporary solution anyway given what's happening to the global climate.
I think in temperate climates below 30°C in summer it shouldn't be an issue. In countries with higher temps than that you would be better with thermal management to stop accelerated battery degradation.
WoodyJim Plenty of experts will tell you that heat absolutely kills batteries. Watch Bjørn’s videos to see that even in much cooler conditions, battery temps rapidly increase which will certainly lead to rapid degradation.
I would not touch a Leaf. Active (liquid) thermal management is an absolute must!
WoodyJim I think there were problems in the UK which rarely gets above 30C. These were long journeys with repeated rapid charging. This might solve this problem. Though why don’t Nissan develop over the air software updates this would eliminate the need to go to dealers for the software update.
Nice
Bjorn Nyland in Norway has been looking at Leaf charging rate vs. battery temps as reported by LeafSpy software (readings from pack temp sensors)
In a recent video post: th-cam.com/video/lJMJNEbPfAY/w-d-xo.html
at about 00:50 into the video he shows a summary plot of the original software charging rate vs. temp and the updated charging rate vs battery temp from recently sold 40KWh Leaf’s with the s/w update.
In his video recording some of the testing with long/multiple fast charge travel it was clear that, even in winter temps below freezing, that battery pack temp was decreasing only very slowly during 55-60 mph highway driving. The car’s battery isn’t cooling notably faster, Nissan has just made rate of charging more permissive for fast charging at high battery temps. For example, at 45 C (~113 F), the original BMS control software allowed a charging rate of about 22 kW (half best speed) and after the update, about 30-31 kW (2/3rds best speed).
According to Nissan docs, the production process and composition of the cells has been updated, but does that make the battery more tolerant OVER THE LONG TERM to higher temps?? Given the lack of info that Nissan has volunteered, there’s no knowing.
I’m with you Nicki, if you’re leasing, it’s no big deal. If your buying new, cautious use.
THe hard case is if you want to buy a used 40+ kWh Leaf. What would we do, bring LeafSpy on a phone and plug into the OBD2 port to get a read of full capacity of the battery? Or is there a way of telling if it’s a “12-bar” Gen2+ Leaf .....
Sent from my iPad
*SPOILER ALERT* ;) ten months 30k update coming soon better SOH on THREE times the milage of that leaf Brian talks about ;) Cheers
I really think we need to strongly state the Nissan Leaf is only to be considered as COLD weather, commuting cars. I have met (online) so many people whos Leafs have been ruined by less than moderate use. These cars will only be around for 8 years in a useful capacity if they are used for road trips and in temperate to hot climates. if you don't drive much and you live in cold weather then its okay. otherwise these cars are getting ruined way to fast. I have wanted to buy used leaf, but I think doing so would be foolish for me in San Antonio TX. as such. I have just switched to driving as little as possible, using public transportation, and uber. If I were to buy a 2014 Nissan leaf, I would not feel comfortable driving it the distances I need. my intermittent (once a week or so) commute is 50 miles roundtrip plus I regularly do errands on that long commute. I would only feel comfortable charging and discharging a leaf from 20 to 80 or there abouts. That does not leave me enough range. especially when its 107 degrees and 100% humidity and I am in traffic. it can take an hour and a half to do the 25 miles if I cannot time it right.
Great news item. I'm surprised that Nissan haven't done a bigger song n dance about fixing the issue that has given the car such a black mark against it's name! Let's hope they haven't substituted rapid gate for early battery degredation.. out of the pan into the fire? If it has actually fixed the issue then what a leap forward for Nissan. Shame no over the air update though! #DegreGate?
I wouldn't be afraid of slow charging speeds, but of battery degradation. Nissan never had the best batteries anyway.
Nissan leafs resale values are already lower the other EVs & also pull down the perceived general resale value of EV's. The one big exeption in resale value is Tesla of course. I presume this software ( no hardware fix where I believe the real problem lies) 'fix' fixes the short term but messes up the long term battery life & resale value. Nissan seems to never get it fully right . Does not listen & learn what buyers want/ need / want fixed in future cars. With the hyundai Kona ( more range, faster charging, better price) scaling up production fast it runs a real risk of becoming a dumb buy in future buyers eyes. When Tesla model 3 comes out in Europe it might be the knockout moment.
Slight 'boo boo' @1.15 where you say the thermal management is designed to keep the batteries warm instead of cool (or is it me mis hearing?) Apart from that, Nissan has lost out as now looking at the others which all look better!
You can't fix a hardware issue with a software update. The settings were done to protect the battery from rapid degradation so there is a high chance that degradation will increase.
I found this interesting data on the 30kWh v 24kWh LEAF. pushevs.com/2018/03/20/nissan-leaf-battery-degradation-data-24-vs-30-kwh-batteries/. Still seems like there are plenty of examples of high battery degradation in a fairly small sample size (208 30kWh). There’s also some examples of ver low degradation (still in the high 90s). Looking at the degradation curve “mean” seems worse for the 30kWh LEAFs. It seems there’ll be plenty down at, or below 50% by the time they hit 8 years. So I would say the 2018 40kWh LEAF is an enormous gamble. We won’t have definitive data for another 12 months.
Love the shirt lol
Our 2018 Leaf has its first service at the end of February, and as its a lease, we will have the software update. In 3 years we hand it back. We had a Zoe previously, which had a maximum charge rate less than the Leaf's tapered off rate. And because the battery was smaller, you had to charge more often anyway. It appears the Hyundai Kona, Kia e-Niro and 2019 Kia Soul may have issues with needing longer to charge than expected too.
Fred Hobbs
currently Nissan UK are saying there is no software update for UK owners. Only this week they emailed me this
“I am unable to comment on other countries in Europe and what software has been provided to them to apply to their vehicles.
The vehicles are preforming as expected, and therefore any software released in the UK or other Parts of Europe is not a “fix” for the rapid charging issue that is talked about, there may be reports online that this has resolved this concern but I need to make it quite clear, there is not a “fix” as there is no fault.
The new vehicles released have a new battery pack and power train and therefore are not the same vehicle that you have purchased so the software applied to these vehicles is not relevant to this conversation.
I can assure you that we are not withholding an update from you, each country operates differently and things such as weather conditions and temperatures will depend on how software will take to the vehicles in each market, if and when software is released we will share this information with our customers.”
No Active Cooling. You can play software games but This Pack is going to have a short Life span.
I think Nissan aren't all that bothered. They just want you to have the car for the warranty and trade in for another. It makes no economic sense to them for you to keep a car after it's been paid off.
wow I am loving the hair/outfit combo. it's really fun. f---- ALS
This new update doesn't even give me a desire to look at buying another leaf. Fool me once, shame on me fool me twice, NO THANKS!!
the real problem is there degradation?
I wouldn't buy a new 2018/19 Leaf at all. If the new management solves both charge rates and battery longevity, it may make a Leaf an option for 2020+.
Nissan Uk are maintaining stance that there is no software update for UK owners. Repeat NO update for UK owners. Many of us have been in contact with Nissan UK for many months on this matter. I received this latest email from them on Tuesday
“I am unable to comment on other countries in Europe and what software has been provided to them to apply to their vehicles.
The vehicles are preforming as expected, and therefore any software released in the UK or other Parts of Europe is not a “fix” for the rapid charging issue that is talked about, there may be reports online that this has resolved this concern but I need to make it quite clear, there is not a “fix” as there is no fault.
The new vehicles released have a new battery pack and power train and therefore are not the same vehicle that you have purchased so the software applied to these vehicles is not relevant to this conversation.
I can assure you that we are not withholding an update from you, each country operates differently and things such as weather conditions and temperatures will depend on how software will take to the vehicles in each market, if and when software is released we will share this information with our customers.”
Maybe Nissan UK will relent in the face of what’s happening in the rest of the world, maybe they will not. On this and other matters - like the fact that UK Leafs delivered today have a Sat Nav with mapping data that is only up to date as at Qtr 2 2016. Yes 3 years old
Toby Jackson Yes Nissan UK seem to give two fingers to UK Leaf owners. Not only by denying this Rapidgate update but by providing 3 years old (Qtr 2 2016) mapping data on a Leaf delivered today. Want up to date maps? I’ve asked and they said Sure but that’ll cost you £89. I asked when can I have them? Don’t know say Nissan UK as they currently do not have any plans to buy the updated mapping data from HERE (the provider) . After all the last time they purchased this data was almost 3 years ago. Nissan UK really couldn’t care any less about UK Leaf owners.
HOT OFF THE PRESS noon today I received this email from Nissan UK
Thank you for your continue patience, I understand since my last update there has been further media reference to the software update, I can confirm that this information was not released by Nissan GB Ltd
I can however now confirm that a software update is due to be released imminently, at this point in time I am unable to provide an exact date but this is likely to be in the next week or two.
We have received this update from Nissan Europe, but as there are many factors that affect different markets we have to finalise and confirm this internally before being able to release it, we also need to ensure that our dealer network who will be apply the software are fully aware of what is required to ensure this process is carried out smoothly.
As soon as the final checks and clarifications are done I will provide you with an update to exactly when this will be released and assist you if required in getting your vehicle booked in
QPR Fan since '67 Meanwhile Tesla just released their 9th or 10th software update OTA to all Model 3 owners - LOL.
MondoTV chalk and cheese mate. You can not compare aLeaf to a Model 3. Just look at the costs. My Leaf cost £27000. You can’t get a Model 3 in the UK. In the US the Leaf starts at 29,000. The Tesla starts at 44,000. That’s a lots of extra cash. For the price of a Model 3 I’d expect a Butler to turn up, clean the car and install the software.
QPR Fan since '67 I was poking fun at the corporate bureaucracy of Nissan? I also hardly think OTA updates are a major price differential? Just an innovation that any automaker could have made if they weren’t so entrenched in existing systems. Buy a new car every 4-5 years to get the latest tech.
It is just bad that Nissan has been so closed and also that they took so long to take action.
That both bad engineering and customer service.
I would not want to buy a used 40kWh Leaf. Disabling the software designed to protect the battery does not solve the real problem of inadequate battery cooling.
Bottom line. . . Leave the leaf alone. Obviously they cheaped out on active battery cooling. The leaf will be left at the dealers.
Not necessarily. It just means that it was not meant for long trips, which admittedtly sucks, but does not render the car completely useless. It is a matter of statistics used in the internal reasoning of the company to make decisions, that they then do not state publicly. The bigger the company, the more likely they are to conceal details of their product, in fear of losing sales or face. When the facts come to light, they will lose sales and face.
Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me Caveat Emptor
Changing the software is not a solution to a badly designed battery pack
In short Keep away from Nissan.
In other words, don’t buy a Nissan Leaf
I no longer trust Nissan..............:-(
Nissan should team up with VW. Do they think we are so stupid?
Team up with VW? Now thats stupid.xD
There's no real difference between bugs and poorly designed features. A feature is just a well documented bug. Anyway strange as it may seem, in the electronics industry it is pretty normal to fix what seems to be a hardware problem by improving the software, so Nissan may well have solved the problem.
Bernard Finucane Not if you are the least bit interested in battery longevity!