Should schools teach gender ideology? (with Shivonne Engen)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มิ.ย. 2024
- #genderidentity #genderideology #detransition
Follow me on Patreon: / alexanderl346
Should schools teach gender ideology? (with Shivonne Engen).
This time my guest is Shivonne Engen. Shivonne is an animal rights activist and a ftmtf desister. She never transitioned medically but identified as a transman for many years before settling for a lesbian identity. She considers herself a desister, which means someone who detransitioned before medical transition such as HRT and surgeries.
In this video Shivonne shares her experience with growing up identifying as trans, how she found herself and what she learned from tis journey. On top of that Shivonne ends up giving a really good advice to young female questioning their gender identity.
We ended up discussing several different topics such "should T be separated from LGB?" should gender ideology, gender identity and transgender identites be taight at schools? We also talked about gender roles and norms, pronouns, the state of LGBT communities, representation of queer characters in films and shows, animal rights and political polarisation. The full conversation can be found on my Patreon page.
I have interviewed a couple of different detransitioners, including Ritchie Herron who also co-starred with me in the documentary "The Lost Boys: Searching for Manhood." I am a male detransitioner myself and have talked about this topic on my channel on multiple of my videos. I first opened up about my past with transition and detransition in my video "My detransition story: the dark truth behind gender dysphoria and transition regret" which i released almost a year ago. Since then i have made video on other subjects as well, such as politics, social issues and philosophy. But i always wanted my channel to be a place to discuss ideas in an open and non-judgemental way. I'm always open to talk to both trans and detrans people on my channel as well as other people with interesting ideas and perspectives.
Follow me on Twitter: / alexenomorpheus
Subscribe to Shivonne's channel: / @shivonneengen
00:00 - Intro
00:34 - "If I was a kid today i would transition"
01:33 - Growing up thinking you're trans
06:08 - Hormones first or top surgery?
07:24 - Waiting to go on testosterone
09:07 - The change of perspective
09:52 - Trans identity
11:50 - Buying testosterone online
13:26 - Accepting your sexuality
15:16 - Environmental gender affirming
16:57 - Pronouns, neopronouns and xenopronouns
21:09 - Strict gender roles and norms
26:19 - Non-binary
27:53 - If transitioning a form of conversion therapy
32:01 - Should gender ideology be taught at schools?
39:06 - Are there more trans kids in blue states?
40:54 - Let kids be kids
42:04 - Being called a guy in public
43:03 - Butch women and masculinity in women
45:05 - What do trans and gay have in common?
48:09 - How Shivonne became a vegan
49:44 - Animal rights activism
55:10 - Are humans and animals equal?
56:31 - Is it moral to eat meat?
59:25 - Peter Singer, speciecism & prejudice
01:02:58 - Shivonne's advice to young girls
I'm sorry for the technical issues we faced during this conversation and the effect it had on the quality of this video. I hope it's watchable. Please remember to subscribe to Shivonne's channel (you can find it in the video description.) If you're interested in hearing me and Shivonne talk about trans women in sport, lgbt communities, The L Word and representation of LGBT characters in films and shows, consider subscribing to my Patreon page for the full version of this interview.
School should teach ,math,science,language and arts NOT POLITICS ‼️we are not sending our kids to school for that reason
Completely agree with you.
Good interview. Shivonne is very lucky to have come out the other side with her body and health intact. Hope you both are going well.
I think what she mentioned early on; that she went through 'phases' of masculine and feminine is much more common than society gives credit for. Phases are important. You are exploring different possibilities in a phase.
We don't let schools teach religion for a reason. They need to just stick to core subjects.
Such a beautiful, well spoken person. Love her accent also.
No
Pretty interesting, I think too that we should leave the sterotypes asociated with being a woman or a man away, but we lived in a binary society and it is very difficult. I think that I never reject being a woman cause my mom is a very free woman, she doesn't use nothing very "girly" or think that a woman should be almost like a doll with a unique form of behavior. So I feel confident when I had to grow up. Even when I felt uncomfrotable in my skin and with mi development. Finally I accept my body, with the good and bad
27:00 Not sure about the logic of "Non-binary helps prevent bodily harm". I guess it COULD work that way, in some cases.... But more often, I see "NB" acting as the easy-to -take first step, which LEADS to surgery/HRT.
It gets people used to the idea that their "gender" is the problem, and that basically opting out of real, evidence-based identity (and the healthy body that goes with their real sex) is the solution.
I think it's better to support people being as "gender non-conforming" as they want, in terms of clothes, behaviour, etc. Encourage them to accept being same-sex attracted, if that's a factor.... But the idea that it's possible to opt out of your sex (and "gender" is just a euphemism for sex; Body-mods would be pointless/irrelevant, otherwise) is the problem, not the solution.
Especially in girls, it seems like the vast majority who end up getting physical procedures, STARTED OFF (like this guest) down that road, by IDing as "NB"- The younger she adopts the "NB" label, the more likely she'll end up with surgery/HRT...
@@JonathanJimbo I mean at that point it’s just a matter of “should this idea of being the opposite sex something that should be affirmed or not” which imo doesn’t have a clear answer atm simply because we don’t know where dysphoria really comes from
@@JonathanJimbo well we have fem boys but because feminine aesthetic is meant to enhance feminine features it’s harder to really normalise to the same extent. Regardless feminine men are a thing
Playing along with a kid’s fantasy is one thing if they don’t ever grow out of that though….
@@JonathanJimbo Well if you're asking why as a man, you aren't treated the same way women are it's just kind of how Gender roles evolve. While everyone is different and gender roles are partly constructs of society, the way the sexes interact is key to how society functions overall probably above all else barring maybe age because those two things are something that's reflected in one's social and physical standing in life whether they like it or not.
Idk if it sucks to hear this, but as a guy you'll likely never experience being treated as woman by the simple fact that you aren't one. Like the poster above says trying to "opt out" of sex because you'd rather have a different standing in life is just kind of not in the cards because of how much of human nature influences society, and part of that is recognizes the differences both physically and behaviorally between the sexes.
@@JonathanJimbo Well we’re still filthy animals at the end of the day so gg can’t really escape our instincts. Worrying about what society does as a whole instead of actually focusing on what you can control is counterproductive anyway imo.
The differences in the sexes across the board aren’t something you can handwave by just saying “fuck the system be free!” Even if it’s something as simple as the dating game being more focused on women being selectors or that men on average are more geared towards physical labour due to being the physically stronger sex on average.
@@JonathanJimboit doesn't matter at all what a person wants to be accepted as, they can only be accepted either by others or by themselves as what they actually are. Nobody is born in the wrong body. These concepts are ridiculous and false and definitely not based in legitimate science.
Very interesting Interview. You asked exactly the important questions. Thank you for this. 💚
I enjoyed this interview Alexander, but have to leave now. This is a fine interview for the guest is cautious, smart and did much research. She noted some concerns and took her time. This is invaluable to many who wish to RUSH the process. Shivonne expresses the many doubts and concerns a lot of people share. She is wise and her sharing with you was very useful. Alexander, you could provide insights to governments who are not certain how to support transitioning, when, what ages and largely it is because they do not know much. I think you could provide excellent consulting services Alexander. Canada
It's really not acceptable even to suggest exposing kids to these kinds of concepts. They are adult concepts about sex, which are completely false.
Good intelligent conversation
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Yes there would be a great movement , totally for
Masculine Women
And
Feminine Men
Should start right NOW
Needing their rights
AND GETTING ACKNOWLEDGED
being accepted as they are, in all of society And the
" sexually is secondary"
NOT THE POINT
M W ✊
F M ✊
What rights?
@@mr.mclibtard5015 the right to be ACCEPTED as
feminine Men
and masculine women,
and not be harassed and judged for it, our social ideas need to change about the variance in all peaple
I wish i was blind and deaf
Affirmation with an ice pick lol
You can always pretend, there's a lot of that going on right now
43:02 Alex, there was historically no overlap - for tens of thousands of years there were maskulin women. But no trans people anywhere. Cheers and Kudos!
If we're speaking of a spam of tens of thousand of years it's really hard to do any research on how many people were or were not trans since It's impossible to examine the psychological profile of people who were dead for that long. Then again, depends on how you define trans. Do you mean someone who transitioned medically? Obviously that option wasn't available throughout the major part of human history and is a new phenomenon so there were no medically transitioned people back then. But did people always identify with the opposite sex or had gender dysphoria related to their own sex? Hard to tell. We don't know if it's something people always had or if it's something that developed throughout the existence of humans, like certain diseases, not to say it is a disease in a derogatory way. When I said "historically speaking" I meant ever since medical transition became available. So basically the last 60-70 years. Throughout that time there were butch women who eventually went on to become transmen and some transmen who found out that they are actually butch women. As one of my previous guest, Aleksander, a Norwegian trans advocate pointed out, it was common for butch women who dated other butch women to be considered gay. Butch women and transmen can have similar patterns of behaviour in their childhood and if we ignore that it is easy to assume that they're just trans when in fact they're not. So I have to disagree with you as I can clearly see an overlap.
@@alexanderl9721 I think there were for sure and maybe in restrictive societies even more genderdysphoric people! I am sure AGP in some form does exist for thousands of years too.
The human mind didn't change to our capabilities just recently. Psychiatric conditions and misperceptions are as old as jealousy of the other sex or gender. I know...the society defines what is a disease and what is totally legit divine knowledge...
I appreciate your 60/70 years clarification!
I agree with you there but frame it the different way around: they were and are all butch women, not trans men. No matter if we or they themselves call them trans men. And its poetical and ok to call them gay and not lesbian in Norwegian or any other language as long as the context or differences to men is still established for all.
I don’t want religion or Gender Ideology taught in schools.
Why has The Trevor Project placed a conversion therapy warning banner on your vid? I'm seeing these appear more and more often on vids where detransition is the topic.
Is it worth reporting the Trevor Project banner? If enough did it would it affect the algorithm?
They really want people to transition and stay that way. It's reckless because transition can cause so many issues.
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Just wondering how being an animal rights activist is relevant to teaching gender ideology?
No.
@@ZFabia2010the title of the video, Sherlock.
Fuck no. That's it, thanks for coming
NO, stay the hell away from the kids
I enjoy your interview style. You are so kind
My heart breaks for anyone who is rushed into major decisions. I thank god that Shivonne was not harmed
No