I am going to use OA dribble method next week....this is standard winter procedure against varroa mite and has high efficiency so we start next season with low number mites and all problems with varoa mite starts later in the season.
I use OA as a vaporisation and as a strip and have good results, what I would like to know is regards to the amount of colonies tested and how close together they are ??? If large amounts are in one area I would say mites could transfer from one to the other, I am a great believer in not over populating sites with my apiaries having a max of 16 through winter and 12 through the season
Manufacturers of vaporizers set high temperatures on the device to boast how fast a treatment can be delivered. Some of these units are set to 230⁰C or higher. OA turns to formic acid and carbon starting at a temperature over 185⁰C. People are saying one gram is pointless, not realizing temperature would be a factor. So now, people load up the vaporizer with 4,5,6, or even 7 grams and state that it takes that amount to be effective. That amount of OA cools the unit to a lower temperature to the point that some of the OA does not get burnt off as Carbon, this allows some of the OA to crystallize in the hive. I was a victim of this myself, I was using 10 grams at 250⁰C and I couldn't kill any mites. I have since lowered the temperature on my provap 110 to 185⁰C and reduced the dose to 5 grams on a double deep with really good results.
I agree with your statements 100%. We have been treating our bees with vaporized OA at 190 degrees C for 4 years. Nothing else. We had a 5% lose one year and zero losses every other year. We use 3 grams per box (use screened bottom boards so some lost through BBs) and treat every 3 or 4 days until our mite kill on the sticky boards is zero or almost zero.
The issue is that 1g/10 frames has been repeatedly shown to be ineffective. 4g/10 frames has been shown to be effective in a few different studies. I believe the earliest one was around 2013. However, there has been no attempt to get approval for the 4g dosage; and the only APPROVED, LEGAL dosage is still only 1g. So 1g is not effective. And the fact that 4g is not legal and has no attempt to become legal, would lead me to believe that 4g is not safe and has adverse side effects. For anyone who doesn't understand how things work when dealing with toxic chemicals, this is the manufacturers CYOA. Sure everybody can just start using 4g. But that is an improper and illegal misuse of the product. Therefore, WHEN the proof comes out of the long term harm and detrimental side effects comes to light, they have a "get out if every class action lawsuit free" card if "so what you're saying is an illegal misuse of our product at a higher than recommended dosage is what's killed your livestock. Lol okay. Bye". See how that works? And yes. There are already documented adverse side effects to the bees are the microbiological, immune, and reproductive levels. Even though everything will tell you there aren't, there have been studies in Poland, China and a couple others, that have shown deleterious effect. Of course, you have to dig and dig to find those studies, as Google will typically hide what their sponsors don't want you to see. How many colonies get treated with OA? Now how much does it cost if you're using one of the APPROVED supplies? I've heard people say "oh I can get a 50lb bag through this or that supply and it'll last almost a lifetime" again we go back to the work APPROVED. Last I checked, there were onky 2 approved commercial OA products for bees that are manufactured by the same companies. So using from an unapproved source isn't legal use of the product. Although one place where one can get a better scope of potential side effects and negative impacts of any chemical or pharmaceutical is the product SDS. They can try to make the truth confusing with a battery of legalese. But when it comes down to it, they cannot lie, and being too intentionally obtuse or evasive could poke holes in the CYOA of the SDS. Meaning if there is any falsehood or intentionally withheld information from the SDS, it leaves them open and vulnerable to any future legal ramifications, that may arise from health deficits or complications caused by use of the product. Which is why one should always read every SDS for every chemical product in its entirety, and fully understand it.
Hello Humberto, This is why we confine the queen bees to a 10x10 centimeter mating box in the fall, for 21 days. This eliminates the hiding place for varroa destructor, interrupts brood production, and allows us to treat the colonies with oxalic acid sublimation at least three times, reducing the mite population to almost zero. We monitor the mite fall and assess our effectiveness. We perform all of this in the fall season, so the colonies can go into winter without disturbance. In spring, we only treat with essential oils, and during honey harvesting, we refrain from any treatment. We apply another treatment in the middle of summer, after sunflower honey extraction. This method has proven successful in both Italy and Hungary. Best regards and safe wintering from Szentendre, Hungary, Tibor
Good video and confirms my own experience exactly. When I started with OAV I believed all the hype and dosed 1 g per brood box every 5 days. Just didn't work, plain and simple. I tried a number of variations, the most effective was 2 g per single brood box hive every 3 days for 24 days. This did achieve a significant reduction in mite numbers, but still not to zero.
I have kept bees for 5 years now, and never used OA. I am more worried that the OA would harm me more than the bees. I also think that the ultimate solution to fight varroa mites is to breed varroa resistant bees. So I have not checked varroa for the last 3 years and only treat them once a year in the fall with Formic Pro and only breed the strong colonies. My hives are still expending. Hopefully in a few years I would not need to treat them at all.
With brood, we want seven times every three days and a temperature of 270-280 C. The grams of oxalate depend on the size of the bee and are from one to three. This is how I do it in Greece with great success.
The timing of treatment is crucial and artificial brood break make treatment more efficient no matter how and what we use against varroa mite....less treatment and healthier bees but it means that we must built beekeepers skills.There is no magic and instant solution....only constant hard labour and wise strategy....varoa mite out from brood is extremely vurneable...that is the key...and if we combine replacement of queen been in that strategy success is quite well and colonies have no problem stay healthy and strong.
So now one researcher states that the temperature used to vaporize oxalic can negate its effectiveness if it is too high . And others have stated that treatment needs to bee more frequent and best case is to isolate the queen so the hive is broodless .. This means drone comb removal all year with drone comb laying being overlapped so there is always drone comb being capped 2 comb per hive needed And putting an excluder above the brood with the queen laying on fresh comb above the excluder once all brood below including drone cell present the worker com . Then removing layed comb above the excluder an the excluder so the hive is absolutely broodless then treating with 2 g Oxalic vapour per brood box . Every 3 or so days Useing larger doses reduces the vaporizers ability to run too hot. Try to check and find a way to control the extreme heat while vapourizing .
Thin walled traditional vertical hives make for a perfect varroa breeding heaven. It is wet rather than humid. It is cold rather than warm particularly at night. It is already well known that varroa do not like humidity, probably because moisture laden air blocks their tiny trachea. It is less well known that pupa extend their pupation time in a lower temperature, by up to 3 days in a cooler night in the peripheral brood cells. More time for the varroa to mature. The ZEST hive, made from insulated blocks kills varroa by being humid and warm. Try it. It is free.
There are so many more studies that need to happen to determine the perfect time/amount of Oxalic needed to make it the most effective treatment. Off the top of my head, this includes brood presence (summer vs fall/winter treatment), number of grams applied per super (anywhere from 1 to 5 grams), the temperatures the vaporizer is set to (230-280), whether having a screened bottom board during application makes a difference, changing the length of time the bees are blocked from exiting (0 minutes - 30 minutes), temperature (0C - 20C), and I'm sure you can think of other factors as well that may skew results. It would be difficult to do but I think it's definitely needed for someone to go that extra mile and just do everything one by one to confirm effectiveness.
I think the expectations for OAV were set to high. OAV is an effective treatment, but it is not a magic silver bullet against Varroa Mites. In a rotation with other products such as Thymol and Formic Acid, it is a good tool.
Did they follow up with percentage of winter survival in those colonies in the studies? Just from my own experience, my colony survival has gone up from 20% to about 80 or 90% since I started treating.
In Europe you have to treat OA broodless only, because then it is effecctiv: one treatment ,1-2g, more than 90% mites gone, depending of the right application/weather
I use OA vaporization in conjunction with screen bottoms and pull-out boards. I apply ever 4-5 days for 5 weeks, or until my mite drops 24hrs after treatment are below 20. The 1gr/brood box is known to be inadequate, so your results were not a surprise. I would like to see your test repeated with 4-5gr/brood box. I'll bet you a coffee at The Expo your results will be very different. 😉 Thanks for all you do for bees and beekeepers!!!!
Yep I run it ever 3 or 4 days, 5 tops plus brood break, I like the condition of my mite levels this year. My OA and Vaporization methods have worked well for me this season. They only used 1 gram every 5 days, in my opinion their experiment was to confined. 🤔The biggest problem I see with many of the studies/experiments, they narrow the parameters to much or only run 1 to a few sets of parameters. 🤨We just🤔find what works 😮💨adjust to random circumstances🥴and roll🙃with it.😂
Is anyrhing over 1g a legal and proper approved usage of the product, in accordance with manufacturer and label directions? If not, why has 4g not been approved as a legal, on label, proper use option of the product? The important questions everyone should be asking.
Just a beek of 4 seasons and have not added OAV to my IPM quiver. It does seem that a brood break of some kind is key. Thanks for the links Humberto, Peace
Once you start digging into research... a colony naturally has at least 2 brood breaks per year, even if the colony doesn't swarm. It has a long brood break in winter, and a short one during the summer dearth, when forage availability is low, and they have a brief pause in brood rearing to conserve food stores for the coming winter, before picking back up as more forage becomes available. Then, there are swarms. When a colony swarms, it doesn't split by taking frames of brood and half the bees to make a new colony. It makes queen cells, ejects the laying queen with around 65% of the bees; those bees go to establish another colony and the already established colony gets about 4 weeks (funny how many things coincide with 28 days. Menstrual cycles, lunar cycles, and the average time it takes for a colony to get a new laying queen) while the new queen emerges, matures, mates, matures more, then begins laying. But aside from natural brood breaks, there the environmental factors, completely regardless of genetic factors. I was reading an essay from around 2010 by Ralph Büchler on varroa resistance in wild vee populations in Europe. In it it mentions that some colonies that were being tracked were surviving around 7-8 years without showing signs of die out, and one survived 15 years without a lapse in activity. So they caught a few swarms from some of these survivor colonies, confirmed the presence of varroa, made splits, took them out to some island to submit them to The Bond Test and all colonies failed absolutely miserably. Even less survivability than the previous colonies that has already been placed there. So what changed? The genetics wouldn't have changed that much. Especially in regards to the colonies that had the mother queens from the caught swarms. What changed was the hives and the treatment. With the new UBeeO technology, it's been proven that the bees don't seem to be able to detect the varroa, so much as the olfactory scent markers given off by unhealthy brood, or stressed hive mates. So how does smoke interfere with their ability to detect the unhealthy brood or stressed hive mates and the pheremones or olfactory markers? What about opening the hive weekly, and thus destroying the atmospheric microclimate, which further interferes with the scents inside the hive? What about top vents? From various studies, we find that the high ventilation that's implemented in hives isn't natural to a natural hive, which will have one entrance and seal all other cracks, crevices and openings. What about insulation and humidity? Derek Mitchell shows how the humidity reduces mite reproduction. In a closed atmosphere of a natural hive, the bees would have better control over the humidity and be able to keep it higher than in a higher ventillation and low insulation environment. There's also CO² concentrations. While the CO² within a hive will never reach the level of having a significant impact on mite fecundity, it's been shown that CO² does have a small impact on mite reproduction. However, with a careened bottom board, that CO² just falls out the bottom. And another study shows that under various levels of forced ventilation, the bees work harder to produce more CO², to maintain the hive microclimate between 1.1% and 1.5% CO²... if the bees are working harder to try and constantly produce more CO², they're burning honey to do so. Same as if they're trying to maintain temperature in a hive that's essentially an oven sitting in direct sunlight (thing of a solar wax meter. Wax melts around 180F... the bees like an environment that's roughly HALF that temperature. Bees are native to a forest environment. Their natural home is in tree hollows, where they would be in shade. They also prefer disciduous trees that shed leaves during winter. But then there's also VOC (volatile organic compounds) that are constantly breaking free from the nectar. In a natural setting, those compounds will be circulated through the brood chamber to supply moisture and humidity to the brood (larva is around 65% moisture, adult bees around 65% moisture and nectar happens to be an average of about 70% moisture). Something coincidental... bees LOVE members of the mint family. And other insects tend to HATE members of the mint family. Then you've also got the tree that bees select. When looking at trees that bees are found in, walnut and oak seem to be very common. Coincidentally, walnut contains Juglone which is toxic and an effective antiparasitic. Oak also has some antimicrobial and antiparasitic properties. I personally believe nature has had this all figured out and been ahead of the curve. We just lack the understanding to let it do what it dies to balance itself out. We micromismanage what we want it to do, with out taking the time to observe what it does, and question the why behind the how. Without our "help" many colonies would die. Yes. But as Seeley says "that is sad. But very necessary for the species". That's how evolution and adaptation works. Let's look at things this way. You get 2 colonies, make 1 split per colony per year with a 100% survival rate. In 10 years, those 2 colonies become 2,048 colonies. Now... lets gloss past the fact that with habitat loss/destruction and city codes that dictate picture perfect poisoned lawns... that amount of colonnies in 1 area would likely be unsustainable... instead let's ask ourselves "what if every beekeeper had 100% colony survival?" Next, "what if every beekeeper had 100% colony survival and 3/4 were pollution to the gene pool because they weren't meant to survive?" The result would be the inevitable collapse oof the species and extinction.
By there study there is only one answer to why there study showed why it did not work. We are not being allowed is use the correct amount of OAV to do the job that works !!!!!.
We, here in Albania,Europe, have been using Oxalic Acid by decades, since 2000 by all methods. First by spraying 3% with distilled water in spring, then by strips handmade in summer, by vaporization in autumn and by dribble in the middle of the winter, where hives are broodless. On our experience we have found that if a good treatment in winter is applied you can extend treatment until the next winter, the only condition is that the hives must be absolutely broodless. You have yo watch them very closely to be sure. Spraying in spring takes to much time and effort but its very effective, especially combined with strips in summer. The problem with vaporization that you are having second thoughts its that it doesnt do a good job when its hot outside and dry. It needs humidity in air and must be applied in the musk where most of the bees are inside. The other problem is that 1gr/hive doesnt do shit of a treatment. We use at least 2gr/supers. I liked what you said about taking decisions in beekeeping operation. Wish you the best and keep up the good work.
Very interesting. Could you provide more details about the spraying process(pop the lid and soak, or must brood frames be sprayed, etc). Is distilled water a must? Are your handmade strips soaked in 50% glycerin/50% OA? Thank you for replying. I was glad to hear from someone who has been using OA for over 20 years.
I wonder if OAV has any anti-virul effects. I’ve noticed improved brood appearance after treatment. Perhaps the OA is reducing the virul load. After all, it is wood bleach.
I've come across a couple different studies. It actualky kills off many of the good bacteria that are the workhorses of the bees immune and digestive systems and lead to long term susceptibility to disease. As with pretty much any other treatment. For every action is an equal and opposite reaction. And all of nature is a very delicate balance down to the microbiological level. Any time we tip the scales based on one aspect, we tip the other end and cause undesired reactions on another end. We need to consider what's on that other end before putting our fingers into things. The LABs and Acetobacters that are killed by the Oxalic acid produce Lactic acid and Acedic acid (and people say apple cider vinegar has no benefit to the bees. The bees literally mix unused nectar with pollen to get these bacterias to ferment it. As the larva need these bacteria in their gut just to be able to digest and metabolize anything they consume) which help fight pathogenic microorganisms, bolster the immune system and ingress immune gene expression. The bees have a much more simplified digestive system and immune system than we do. And even we are very heavily dependant on good gut microbial for digestion, metabolism, immune support, and general health. All disease begins in the gut. And it's usually linked to a damaged or missing gut microbial constituent. Lactose intolerance, diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, anemia, kidney stones, a handful of hor oral imbalance related disease and a handful of neurodegenerative diseases can all be linked to a lack of E.Coli bacteria in the gut. With over 1500 different strains of E.Coli, most are beneficial with only very small handful being linked to food poisoning or ill effects. In fact a majority of E.Coli related food poisoning cna be linked to only 3 specific strains. So how are these chemicals negatively affecting the microbial ecology within the colony. Either at the hive level, or the individual level? What manner of viral or pathogenic microbial susceptibility is caused long term, due to long term exposure of the colony to these chemicals, that kill off the beneficial microbes? Just like if you were to remove 1 species from an ecosystem, you can completely disrupt the balance, causing one other species to breed and reproduce beyond sustainable levels, and eventually lead to the destruction of the ecosystem... microbial ecology is very much the same. If you kill off this group of microbes, as a side effect of a product intended to target this other organism, you create a vaccine where a more virulent organism can grow out of control. Candida albicans is a necessary gut bacteria that is notorious for growing out of control, hijacking hormones to cause cravings that feed itself, and if it grows strong enough, or makes it outside of the intestines and into the blood stream, can wreak havoc through the body and cause inflammation, infection, eczema, etc other places in the body. And that's an example of a "good" yeast/fungi organism that gets out of control. What about when IA kills off too many of the good bacteria, making way for one of the foul brood organism? Or the nosema fungi? Or the chalk brood fungi? The very same lactic acid bacteria, bifidobacterium and acetobacters that die as a result of OA exposure, are also the bacteria that fight against these pathogenic microorganism that cause other diseases in bees. Varroa isn't nearly as harmful as the chemicals. Or the habitat loss caused by other chemicals. 70-100 million years of surviving, thriving, adapting, etc... the bees have left wort things on the evolutionary roadside that we were never around to see, and likely will never know about. They've lived through comets, ice age a, mass extinction events, floods, fires, global warming, polar shifts, etc. But they weren't in decline or threatened until Monsanto showed up. Around 70% of all the endangered species are aquatic life or other species that depend on a semi-aquatic habitat. And they tell us it's from "rising carbon levels in the water from exhaust"... bullshit. It's from that round up sprayed on the river banks, the fertilizer spread on golf courses and lawns... it's chemical. But what do we turn to for the solution to everything? Chemicals. It's insanity.
Yes. I was thinking more about deformed wing and other viruses that negatively affect the bees. I’m sure it’s bacteriocidal to some extent. But no worries, now they can sell probiotics. Lol.
I don't use any treatments and have about 50-60 percent losses over the last 8 years. I know some who treat 5 times per year with the same percentage. I don't see any reason to start!
I have tried every kind of treatments on the market BUT nothing compares to nothing at all ... literally i havent treated my bees for mites for over 2 years and i have an extremely low count of mites ..lower than what i had when i treated them
I use 75g of OA cristals + 1 L of destilled water+ 1 kg of sugar. I put 5 ml of that solution per seam of bees in a broodless period ( in my country, it is beginning of December). I have never had more than 10% winter losses. I also cut drone brood in spring, and use Amitraz water solution or some acaricide strips in summer after the last honey flow.
I think what the industry needs, is an update regarding the amount of Oxalic Acid per box. 1g has been proven to be not as effective as larger doses. The point that was made about OA being the sole method to treat is spot on. A beekeeper needs to develop an IPM with different options. I use a combination of Apivar and Oxalic Acid at specific times of the year.
I personally don't like the idea of throwing more treatment at the problem, what if in 5 years time 2g suddenly becomes insufficient. In my country we collectively decided to not treat and now have a bee that manages the mites on its own. While I understand that this might not be possible for most beekeepers I strongly believe that it is the way to go
Bob Bonnie, who has over 40 years of beekeeping experience, says when using OAV, that regular doses won’t effect much change. He triples the dose. And now I do to. I can tell you from experience that the overdosing, 3 grams per box rather than 1gram) has saved many of my hives.
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Have you tried Oxalic acid before? How did you describe your experience?
every 2 days, 9 times.
16 days between the first and last treatment. Drone brood is capped for 15 days. Good results. 2 gram dose
No. Never.
I am going to use OA dribble method next week....this is standard winter procedure against varroa mite and has high efficiency so we start next season with low number mites and all problems with varoa mite starts later in the season.
I use OA as a vaporisation and as a strip and have good results, what I would like to know is regards to the amount of colonies tested and how close together they are ??? If large amounts are in one area I would say mites could transfer from one to the other, I am a great believer in not over populating sites with my apiaries having a max of 16 through winter and 12 through the season
Manufacturers of vaporizers set high temperatures on the device to boast how fast a treatment can be delivered. Some of these units are set to 230⁰C or higher. OA turns to formic acid and carbon starting at a temperature over 185⁰C. People are saying one gram is pointless, not realizing temperature would be a factor. So now, people load up the vaporizer with 4,5,6, or even 7 grams and state that it takes that amount to be effective. That amount of OA cools the unit to a lower temperature to the point that some of the OA does not get burnt off as Carbon, this allows some of the OA to crystallize in the hive. I was a victim of this myself, I was using 10 grams at 250⁰C and I couldn't kill any mites. I have since lowered the temperature on my provap 110 to 185⁰C and reduced the dose to 5 grams on a double deep with really good results.
I agree with your statements 100%. We have been treating our bees with vaporized OA at 190 degrees C for 4 years. Nothing else. We had a 5% lose one year and zero losses every other year. We use 3 grams per box (use screened bottom boards so some lost through BBs) and treat every 3 or 4 days until our mite kill on the sticky boards is zero or almost zero.
Alternative title, "1 gram of OA doesn't work". Up north a winter broodless period allows some good cleanup. With as much as 4 grams a super.
Bingo! I just use 2 g.
The issue is that 1g/10 frames has been repeatedly shown to be ineffective.
4g/10 frames has been shown to be effective in a few different studies. I believe the earliest one was around 2013.
However, there has been no attempt to get approval for the 4g dosage; and the only APPROVED, LEGAL dosage is still only 1g.
So 1g is not effective. And the fact that 4g is not legal and has no attempt to become legal, would lead me to believe that 4g is not safe and has adverse side effects.
For anyone who doesn't understand how things work when dealing with toxic chemicals, this is the manufacturers CYOA. Sure everybody can just start using 4g. But that is an improper and illegal misuse of the product. Therefore, WHEN the proof comes out of the long term harm and detrimental side effects comes to light, they have a "get out if every class action lawsuit free" card if "so what you're saying is an illegal misuse of our product at a higher than recommended dosage is what's killed your livestock. Lol okay. Bye".
See how that works? And yes. There are already documented adverse side effects to the bees are the microbiological, immune, and reproductive levels. Even though everything will tell you there aren't, there have been studies in Poland, China and a couple others, that have shown deleterious effect. Of course, you have to dig and dig to find those studies, as Google will typically hide what their sponsors don't want you to see. How many colonies get treated with OA? Now how much does it cost if you're using one of the APPROVED supplies? I've heard people say "oh I can get a 50lb bag through this or that supply and it'll last almost a lifetime" again we go back to the work APPROVED. Last I checked, there were onky 2 approved commercial OA products for bees that are manufactured by the same companies. So using from an unapproved source isn't legal use of the product.
Although one place where one can get a better scope of potential side effects and negative impacts of any chemical or pharmaceutical is the product SDS. They can try to make the truth confusing with a battery of legalese. But when it comes down to it, they cannot lie, and being too intentionally obtuse or evasive could poke holes in the CYOA of the SDS. Meaning if there is any falsehood or intentionally withheld information from the SDS, it leaves them open and vulnerable to any future legal ramifications, that may arise from health deficits or complications caused by use of the product. Which is why one should always read every SDS for every chemical product in its entirety, and fully understand it.
Hello Humberto,
This is why we confine the queen bees to a 10x10 centimeter mating box in the fall, for 21 days. This eliminates the hiding place for varroa destructor, interrupts brood production, and allows us to treat the colonies with oxalic acid sublimation at least three times, reducing the mite population to almost zero. We monitor the mite fall and assess our effectiveness. We perform all of this in the fall season, so the colonies can go into winter without disturbance. In spring, we only treat with essential oils, and during honey harvesting, we refrain from any treatment. We apply another treatment in the middle of summer, after sunflower honey extraction. This method has proven successful in both Italy and Hungary.
Best regards and safe wintering from Szentendre, Hungary,
Tibor
Good video and confirms my own experience exactly. When I started with OAV I believed all the hype and dosed 1 g per brood box every 5 days. Just didn't work, plain and simple. I tried a number of variations, the most effective was 2 g per single brood box hive every 3 days for 24 days. This did achieve a significant reduction in mite numbers, but still not to zero.
I have kept bees for 5 years now, and never used OA. I am more worried that the OA would harm me more than the bees. I also think that the ultimate solution to fight varroa mites is to breed varroa resistant bees. So I have not checked varroa for the last 3 years and only treat them once a year in the fall with Formic Pro and only breed the strong colonies. My hives are still expending. Hopefully in a few years I would not need to treat them at all.
With brood, we want seven times every three days and a temperature of 270-280 C. The grams of oxalate depend on the size of the bee and are from one to three. This is how I do it in Greece with great success.
The timing of treatment is crucial and artificial brood break make treatment more efficient no matter how and what we use against varroa mite....less treatment and healthier bees but it means that we must built beekeepers skills.There is no magic and instant solution....only constant hard labour and wise strategy....varoa mite out from brood is extremely vurneable...that is the key...and if we combine replacement of queen been in that strategy success is quite well and colonies have no problem stay healthy and strong.
So now one researcher states that the temperature used to vaporize oxalic can negate its effectiveness if it is too high .
And others have stated that treatment needs to bee more frequent and best case is to isolate the queen so the hive is broodless ..
This means drone comb removal all year with drone comb laying being overlapped so there is always drone comb being capped 2 comb per hive needed
And putting an excluder above the brood with the queen laying on fresh comb above the excluder once all brood below including drone cell present the worker com .
Then removing layed comb above the excluder an the excluder so the hive is absolutely broodless then treating with 2 g Oxalic vapour per brood box .
Every 3 or so days
Useing larger doses reduces the vaporizers ability to run too hot.
Try to check and find a way to control the extreme heat while vapourizing .
Thin walled traditional vertical hives make for a perfect varroa breeding heaven. It is wet rather than humid. It is cold rather than warm particularly at night. It is already well known that varroa do not like humidity, probably because moisture laden air blocks their tiny trachea. It is less well known that pupa extend their pupation time in a lower temperature, by up to 3 days in a cooler night in the peripheral brood cells. More time for the varroa to mature.
The ZEST hive, made from insulated blocks kills varroa by being humid and warm. Try it. It is free.
There are so many more studies that need to happen to determine the perfect time/amount of Oxalic needed to make it the most effective treatment. Off the top of my head, this includes brood presence (summer vs fall/winter treatment), number of grams applied per super (anywhere from 1 to 5 grams), the temperatures the vaporizer is set to (230-280), whether having a screened bottom board during application makes a difference, changing the length of time the bees are blocked from exiting (0 minutes - 30 minutes), temperature (0C - 20C), and I'm sure you can think of other factors as well that may skew results. It would be difficult to do but I think it's definitely needed for someone to go that extra mile and just do everything one by one to confirm effectiveness.
I think the expectations for OAV were set to high. OAV is an effective treatment, but it is not a magic silver bullet against Varroa Mites. In a rotation with other products such as Thymol and Formic Acid, it is a good tool.
As you clairly say, in the conditions of trial seems not work.
Did they follow up with percentage of winter survival in those colonies in the studies? Just from my own experience, my colony survival has gone up from 20% to about 80 or 90% since I started treating.
In Europe you have to treat OA broodless only, because then it is effecctiv: one treatment ,1-2g, more than 90% mites gone, depending of the right application/weather
you need to do a brood brake before treating with oxalic acid. isolate the queen for 14 days, and then after another 7 days you can treat.
I use OA vaporization in conjunction with screen bottoms and pull-out boards. I apply ever 4-5 days for 5 weeks, or until my mite drops 24hrs after treatment are below 20. The 1gr/brood box is known to be inadequate, so your results were not a surprise. I would like to see your test repeated with 4-5gr/brood box. I'll bet you a coffee at The Expo your results will be very different. 😉 Thanks for all you do for bees and beekeepers!!!!
Yep I run it ever 3 or 4 days, 5 tops plus brood break, I like the condition of my mite levels this year. My OA and Vaporization methods have worked well for me this season. They only used 1 gram every 5 days, in my opinion their experiment was to confined.
🤔The biggest problem I see with many of the studies/experiments, they narrow the parameters to much or only run 1 to a few sets of parameters. 🤨We just🤔find what works 😮💨adjust to random circumstances🥴and roll🙃with it.😂
Is anyrhing over 1g a legal and proper approved usage of the product, in accordance with manufacturer and label directions?
If not, why has 4g not been approved as a legal, on label, proper use option of the product? The important questions everyone should be asking.
Just a beek of 4 seasons and have not added OAV to my IPM quiver. It does seem that a brood break of some kind is key. Thanks for the links Humberto, Peace
Once you start digging into research... a colony naturally has at least 2 brood breaks per year, even if the colony doesn't swarm. It has a long brood break in winter, and a short one during the summer dearth, when forage availability is low, and they have a brief pause in brood rearing to conserve food stores for the coming winter, before picking back up as more forage becomes available.
Then, there are swarms. When a colony swarms, it doesn't split by taking frames of brood and half the bees to make a new colony. It makes queen cells, ejects the laying queen with around 65% of the bees; those bees go to establish another colony and the already established colony gets about 4 weeks (funny how many things coincide with 28 days. Menstrual cycles, lunar cycles, and the average time it takes for a colony to get a new laying queen) while the new queen emerges, matures, mates, matures more, then begins laying.
But aside from natural brood breaks, there the environmental factors, completely regardless of genetic factors.
I was reading an essay from around 2010 by Ralph Büchler on varroa resistance in wild vee populations in Europe. In it it mentions that some colonies that were being tracked were surviving around 7-8 years without showing signs of die out, and one survived 15 years without a lapse in activity. So they caught a few swarms from some of these survivor colonies, confirmed the presence of varroa, made splits, took them out to some island to submit them to The Bond Test and all colonies failed absolutely miserably. Even less survivability than the previous colonies that has already been placed there. So what changed? The genetics wouldn't have changed that much. Especially in regards to the colonies that had the mother queens from the caught swarms. What changed was the hives and the treatment. With the new UBeeO technology, it's been proven that the bees don't seem to be able to detect the varroa, so much as the olfactory scent markers given off by unhealthy brood, or stressed hive mates. So how does smoke interfere with their ability to detect the unhealthy brood or stressed hive mates and the pheremones or olfactory markers? What about opening the hive weekly, and thus destroying the atmospheric microclimate, which further interferes with the scents inside the hive?
What about top vents? From various studies, we find that the high ventilation that's implemented in hives isn't natural to a natural hive, which will have one entrance and seal all other cracks, crevices and openings.
What about insulation and humidity? Derek Mitchell shows how the humidity reduces mite reproduction. In a closed atmosphere of a natural hive, the bees would have better control over the humidity and be able to keep it higher than in a higher ventillation and low insulation environment. There's also CO² concentrations. While the CO² within a hive will never reach the level of having a significant impact on mite fecundity, it's been shown that CO² does have a small impact on mite reproduction. However, with a careened bottom board, that CO² just falls out the bottom. And another study shows that under various levels of forced ventilation, the bees work harder to produce more CO², to maintain the hive microclimate between 1.1% and 1.5% CO²... if the bees are working harder to try and constantly produce more CO², they're burning honey to do so. Same as if they're trying to maintain temperature in a hive that's essentially an oven sitting in direct sunlight (thing of a solar wax meter. Wax melts around 180F... the bees like an environment that's roughly HALF that temperature. Bees are native to a forest environment. Their natural home is in tree hollows, where they would be in shade. They also prefer disciduous trees that shed leaves during winter.
But then there's also VOC (volatile organic compounds) that are constantly breaking free from the nectar. In a natural setting, those compounds will be circulated through the brood chamber to supply moisture and humidity to the brood (larva is around 65% moisture, adult bees around 65% moisture and nectar happens to be an average of about 70% moisture). Something coincidental... bees LOVE members of the mint family. And other insects tend to HATE members of the mint family.
Then you've also got the tree that bees select. When looking at trees that bees are found in, walnut and oak seem to be very common. Coincidentally, walnut contains Juglone which is toxic and an effective antiparasitic. Oak also has some antimicrobial and antiparasitic properties.
I personally believe nature has had this all figured out and been ahead of the curve. We just lack the understanding to let it do what it dies to balance itself out. We micromismanage what we want it to do, with out taking the time to observe what it does, and question the why behind the how.
Without our "help" many colonies would die. Yes. But as Seeley says "that is sad. But very necessary for the species". That's how evolution and adaptation works. Let's look at things this way. You get 2 colonies, make 1 split per colony per year with a 100% survival rate. In 10 years, those 2 colonies become 2,048 colonies. Now... lets gloss past the fact that with habitat loss/destruction and city codes that dictate picture perfect poisoned lawns... that amount of colonnies in 1 area would likely be unsustainable... instead let's ask ourselves "what if every beekeeper had 100% colony survival?"
Next, "what if every beekeeper had 100% colony survival and 3/4 were pollution to the gene pool because they weren't meant to survive?" The result would be the inevitable collapse oof the species and extinction.
Is there any studies about rosemary plants helping bees fight off varroa mites?
By there study there is only one answer to why there study showed why it did not work. We are not being allowed is use the correct amount of OAV to do the job that works !!!!!.
We, here in Albania,Europe, have been using Oxalic Acid by decades, since 2000 by all methods. First by spraying 3% with distilled water in spring, then by strips handmade in summer, by vaporization in autumn and by dribble in the middle of the winter, where hives are broodless. On our experience we have found that if a good treatment in winter is applied you can extend treatment until the next winter, the only condition is that the hives must be absolutely broodless. You have yo watch them very closely to be sure. Spraying in spring takes to much time and effort but its very effective, especially combined with strips in summer. The problem with vaporization that you are having second thoughts its that it doesnt do a good job when its hot outside and dry. It needs humidity in air and must be applied in the musk where most of the bees are inside. The other problem is that 1gr/hive doesnt do shit of a treatment. We use at least 2gr/supers. I liked what you said about taking decisions in beekeeping operation.
Wish you the best and keep up the good work.
Very interesting. Could you provide more details about the spraying process(pop the lid and soak, or must brood frames be sprayed, etc). Is distilled water a must? Are your handmade strips soaked in 50% glycerin/50% OA? Thank you for replying. I was glad to hear from someone who has been using OA for over 20 years.
Handmade strips soaked in 50/50 Glyc/acid, correct@@MerrittHoney
Time to move the testing to other parts of the country and at different rates. Thsnks.
Great work!
I wonder if OAV has any anti-virul effects. I’ve noticed improved brood appearance after treatment. Perhaps the OA is reducing the virul load. After all, it is wood bleach.
I've come across a couple different studies. It actualky kills off many of the good bacteria that are the workhorses of the bees immune and digestive systems and lead to long term susceptibility to disease. As with pretty much any other treatment. For every action is an equal and opposite reaction. And all of nature is a very delicate balance down to the microbiological level. Any time we tip the scales based on one aspect, we tip the other end and cause undesired reactions on another end. We need to consider what's on that other end before putting our fingers into things. The LABs and Acetobacters that are killed by the Oxalic acid produce Lactic acid and Acedic acid (and people say apple cider vinegar has no benefit to the bees. The bees literally mix unused nectar with pollen to get these bacterias to ferment it. As the larva need these bacteria in their gut just to be able to digest and metabolize anything they consume) which help fight pathogenic microorganisms, bolster the immune system and ingress immune gene expression.
The bees have a much more simplified digestive system and immune system than we do. And even we are very heavily dependant on good gut microbial for digestion, metabolism, immune support, and general health. All disease begins in the gut. And it's usually linked to a damaged or missing gut microbial constituent. Lactose intolerance, diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, anemia, kidney stones, a handful of hor oral imbalance related disease and a handful of neurodegenerative diseases can all be linked to a lack of E.Coli bacteria in the gut. With over 1500 different strains of E.Coli, most are beneficial with only very small handful being linked to food poisoning or ill effects. In fact a majority of E.Coli related food poisoning cna be linked to only 3 specific strains.
So how are these chemicals negatively affecting the microbial ecology within the colony. Either at the hive level, or the individual level? What manner of viral or pathogenic microbial susceptibility is caused long term, due to long term exposure of the colony to these chemicals, that kill off the beneficial microbes? Just like if you were to remove 1 species from an ecosystem, you can completely disrupt the balance, causing one other species to breed and reproduce beyond sustainable levels, and eventually lead to the destruction of the ecosystem... microbial ecology is very much the same. If you kill off this group of microbes, as a side effect of a product intended to target this other organism, you create a vaccine where a more virulent organism can grow out of control.
Candida albicans is a necessary gut bacteria that is notorious for growing out of control, hijacking hormones to cause cravings that feed itself, and if it grows strong enough, or makes it outside of the intestines and into the blood stream, can wreak havoc through the body and cause inflammation, infection, eczema, etc other places in the body. And that's an example of a "good" yeast/fungi organism that gets out of control. What about when IA kills off too many of the good bacteria, making way for one of the foul brood organism? Or the nosema fungi? Or the chalk brood fungi? The very same lactic acid bacteria, bifidobacterium and acetobacters that die as a result of OA exposure, are also the bacteria that fight against these pathogenic microorganism that cause other diseases in bees.
Varroa isn't nearly as harmful as the chemicals. Or the habitat loss caused by other chemicals. 70-100 million years of surviving, thriving, adapting, etc... the bees have left wort things on the evolutionary roadside that we were never around to see, and likely will never know about. They've lived through comets, ice age a, mass extinction events, floods, fires, global warming, polar shifts, etc. But they weren't in decline or threatened until Monsanto showed up. Around 70% of all the endangered species are aquatic life or other species that depend on a semi-aquatic habitat. And they tell us it's from "rising carbon levels in the water from exhaust"... bullshit. It's from that round up sprayed on the river banks, the fertilizer spread on golf courses and lawns... it's chemical. But what do we turn to for the solution to everything? Chemicals. It's insanity.
Yes. I was thinking more about deformed wing and other viruses that negatively affect the bees. I’m sure it’s bacteriocidal to some extent. But no worries, now they can sell probiotics. Lol.
@@CrazyIvan865 The real question is , why hasnt researchers stated what you just said , as to me ,that type of long term thinking is the best way,
I don't use any treatments and have about 50-60 percent losses over the last 8 years. I know some who treat 5 times per year with the same percentage. I don't see any reason to start!
TH-cam bu soruna bir çözüm bulması lazım seçili dillerde alt yazı
Türkçe alt yazı varmi
Dosage, 1 gm was the issue.
I have tried every kind of treatments on the market BUT nothing compares to nothing at all ... literally i havent treated my bees for mites for over 2 years and i have an extremely low count of mites ..lower than what i had when i treated them
One gram?? Every 5 days?? During the summer brood period?? Well, duh....🤣🤣
Yeap, It seems like a trial designed to fail.
I trust your research, but I’ve seen projects going in the directions off the sponsors and donators who simply bought their way
I use 75g of OA cristals + 1 L of destilled water+ 1 kg of sugar. I put 5 ml of that solution per seam of bees in a broodless period ( in my country, it is beginning of December). I have never had more than 10% winter losses. I also cut drone brood in spring, and use Amitraz water solution or some acaricide strips in summer after the last honey flow.
Your commentary is inadequate in that the dosages, in at least the Georgia study, is not discussed.
I think what the industry needs, is an update regarding the amount of Oxalic Acid per box. 1g has been proven to be not as effective as larger doses. The point that was made about OA being the sole method to treat is spot on. A beekeeper needs to develop an IPM with different options. I use a combination of Apivar and Oxalic Acid at specific times of the year.
I personally don't like the idea of throwing more treatment at the problem, what if in 5 years time 2g suddenly becomes insufficient. In my country we collectively decided to not treat and now have a bee that manages the mites on its own. While I understand that this might not be possible for most beekeepers I strongly believe that it is the way to go
1g is not good like 4g ....for profit 😎
I have been keeping bees in London UK for 6 years I've never used oxalic acid vapor, I only use the apivar strips and keep only strong colonies
I think that the dosage wasn’t high enough and too long between treatments!! We have had some luck in treating with 4g and treat every 3-4 days!
4gram oxal sublimation!?
@@AndrasAndrasi-yc2bm absolutely!
Bob Bonnie, who has over 40 years of beekeeping experience, says when using OAV, that regular doses won’t effect much change. He triples the dose. And now I do to. I can tell you from experience that the overdosing, 3 grams per box rather than 1gram) has saved many of my hives.