I just bought my first M body. Went for a used mint condition M10R. Love it and you save a chunk of change. This video has made me feel like it was the right decision. Thanks.
The M10, M10-P and M10-R (and M10M and M10-D) are workhorses with 5-6 years of proven record for that model and specifications. Simple and effective. Can't really go wrong with them.
It’s almost a form of meditation listening Thorsten talking about his Leica cameras. His thick and beautifully melodious voice and the unhidden passion he has for his trade and the tools he uses to create some of the most gorgeous images I have ever seen… a real artist, thru & thru. Thanks.
I still use the original silver chrome M8 and silver chrome M9-P, just recently added a SL (Typ 601) for versatility and adapting all kinds of amazing lenses. Maybe I will add a M11 in seven years from now..
I've secured a new M10-R Black Paint. i like the finish, weight and bottom plate. it was probably the last chance at brass. All the Best for you and thanks.
I am on the M11 waiting list at my local Leica dealer. Perhaps I stick with my M10-R and buy a new lens instead?! Food for thought. Thank you Thorsten.
I just bought the m10-R in black paint. My first Leica. Thank you Thorsten for the meaningful content and teachings. I love your work. Hopefully, I join you on a walk in the future. Until then, I’ll always wear my Leica.
I chose the M10R over the M10P - not for the increased MP but for the improved low light capability. M11 is further improved for low light while still having higher resolution. All are great!
Well, you are so right. I'm stuck with my M9 which I still have since it came out. Each new generation deceived me, except the M10 which is to expensive. I went the CL route which complements my M9 in an amazing way.
Good one! Your photo examples near the end of the video, especially the B&W ones, are beautiful. I own the M10-R and it was good to hear you say in a flash how the Leica colors (since the M9) seem to reflect Kodachrome. My camera still strikes me has having a Kodachrome look, but with amazing dynamic range, and it's my favorite for capturing what I see when taking a photo. I hope when full Lightroom profiles are installed for the M11 it returns to the same color profile, in case I ever get one of those. Regarding megapixels, I leave the house with one camera and one lens, usually the 35mm f/1.4 Sumilux, and I often find in street photography that being able to crop way in gives me the image I realy wanted, so the 40 MP means a lot to me just for that. I guess in that respect, 60 MP would give me even a better image after crop, assuming I could hold the camera still enough!
Thoughtful presentation. Thanks! I watched this when newly-posted, but believe this to be my first comment, as I was still deciding whether, and what, to acquire, in February. Ultimately, as much as I wished to add an M10 Monochrom, or a Black-Painted M10-R, I decided that 2022 would be a year for lenses, adding pre-owned APO Summicron-M 75mm ASPH and Elmar-M 24mm lenses.
Two things. I hope the lack of a base plate doesn’t signal the end of the M film cameras. And two, all those clicks makes the M11 as noisy as a DSLR. Thanks for the detailed comparison of the M11 to other digital Ms.
I totally skipped the entire M10 line as I had a great looking brassed MP240. Until the M10R Black Paint was released and I was very happy to lay my hands on one of this limited series. It is definitely the most beautiful Leica ever made, next to the black film MP. This will be my keeper for many years to come. Oh and the quality is even higher than the M240, people now even more often then before make comments on the color rendering
The blackpaint MP is the most desireable of all Leicas. I got mine in 2003 (#2890xxx) and it shows its _kilometraje_ now; top & bottom decks, film advance lever, some scratches on that glossy paint. If the grandson that gets it when I kick the 🗑 doesn't like the brass, it can always be painted and restored as new. I'm using it more these days since I'm getting HC-110 again. Keeping the M10 for color. 😉
I don’t see any reason to upgrade from M10R to M11, besides the fact to just höher something new… but when buying into M first time I’d probably buy the M11… but for me the greatest about Leica M is exactly that there is no significant difference between M9 and M10R, always just pure fun and joy to use. Glas is more desirable to me, eG Noctilux 50mm….
I’m interested in your thoughts… Today (November 2022), would you buy the M10-R or the M11? I personally don’t like the M11 because it’s a few steps too far from what an M is about). Do you think the M10-R will hold its value? Or should I wait until Leica make an M11-D or something like that?
In the US, pre-owned M10-R’s, with warranty, are going for $3k less than new. There do not appear to be many M11’s in the used market. For this reason the M10-R is a no brainer, for me. However, I never buy new, and always buy pre-owned from a reputable dealer 2-3 years post-launch.
Without thinking too much I bought a new Leica M-A, a film camera. My thinking at the time was that buying the M-A was like buying a brand new M3, i.e. a used M3 without the hassles of old age. Now, I'm re-learning the real hassles of using film. Something you might address in one of your videos are the pros and cons of the different types of film. Which film is your favorite for portraits? Which is your favorite film for scenery? Where I live Kodak Portra 160 - my favorite film - is only available once in a while - and I can only buy one box of Portra 160 per visit to my camera store! That is one of the real hassles of shooting film. There are others.
Waiting for the M11-P. I have been using DRF Leica M since the M8 and I know now to wait. The first iteration of the M10 to the M10R is a huge difference. I think the M10-R is the penultimate iteration of the digital M, which is good enough until the M11-P usurps the M11. I want the updated firmware to its fine-tuned perfection (or as close to it) before I decide on a higher resolution than 40MP. I also took a long time to update my SL to the SL2-S (then back the the SL2), and I haven't upgraded my Q, nor my S typ 007. Know your tools, use them until their shelf life and use is completely obsolete, but in Leica's case I would use something RED camera used as a phrase a long time ago... Leica is obsolescence obsolete. They are ALL good.
Dear Prof. Overgaard, Leica M is the planned last digital M camera, just like M6 is the last M film camera. After this last digital M (Nick named 240), Leica could not shoot the golden eggs chicken down, and relaunched the M family bodies. But, the real new camera is the Q2 from which extended M family inherited from its innovations. This is just the way I feel it, and it’s just my humble opinion. Regards Pascal
Hello, Thorsten. I always enjoy your perspective on all things photographic. I have a number of modern digital Leica camera bodies and lenses. My favorite one by far is my M10 Monochrom. I love b/w and this camera fulfills that love. I currently have my name on a waiting list for a new M11. However, I’m starting to wonder if I really want the latest camera since I’m very much enjoying what I have and plan on getting a Summaron 28mm f/5.6 to compliment my collection of lenses. I think buying all the latest and greatest cameras is exciting, kind of like the dating term “playing the field”, until you finally realize you’ve found the one you truly love, settle down and make a long term commitment. Sorry for waxing philosophical.
I think that one should go with that feels right. If you cannot stop thinking about the M11, go get one. If you are happy with what you got and can sleep at night without worring if you are missing out, then you probably aren't 🙂
i never did a decision between this M OR that M. So i am now in the situation to own 5 pieces of them, all brandnew.....:-) and i am happy with every single M. (M7, MP, M10 , M10r Black Paint and DLux)
Thanks for the informative video thorsten, the moment some leaks of M11 started to go wild, i snapped the last available M10-R bp available to me, i was enjoying so much my m10-p safari but my mind started going rouge when the BP was announced but i thought i’d wait n see what M11 has to offer, while enjoying my MP BP too
I am glad you are going to spend some serious time shooting and playing with the M11 and not only with shooting but also with post editing so your review make sense, where others shoot for 2 weeks and call themselves a "M11 specialist" or the like. Looking forward to your findings and experiences.
I have the Leica Q i bought used forme the inheritance from my nother. Some time it will be nice to have a 50mm, so i Think i Will look for the m10-r and a voigtleander 50 mm lens. But i am not sure about the lens, is it good enough, Also for the m11?🤷🏼♂️
When I upgraded from my M9-P which I still have, to the M10-P (both in silver), I told a friend that it was the last Leica M I was likely to buy. I didn’t know how prophetic that was! The M10-R with 40MP and the increased Bulb time is appealing and as much as I was tempted to go for the Black Paint, I skipped it. I would love it in silver in the same style - no red dot, Leica / Ernst Leitz / Wetzlar Germany script on top plate. Thorsten, if you have any influence with Leica, please make that happen! 🙏 The advances in the M11 are understandable and expected. Some I like, but most do not need and would make little difference to me. So, I’ll be sticking with my M10-P and build my lens collection. Unless you can convince Leica for a silver P style M10-R 😏
I bought the Leica M11. I went from hating it to loving it realizing that what it did was awaken my dormant love of the art of photography again. Years ago I had my own darkroom. That is where I was most creative. Current years of digital photography has made me less a part of the process. This camera has reawakened me.
Het Thorsten, you said M10R is exactly the same as M10 just more megapix. Doesn't M10R have a new sensor technology? Was M11 sensor made/helped by Sony? Thank you
M10-R sensor is CMOS, the M11 sensor is CMOS backlit sensor (and triple resolution), so definitely another sensors. Without starting a war on M10 / M10-R, let's just state that the one is 24MP and the other is 40MP and they are very similar.
Hi Thorsten! I’m trying to decide between M11 and M10R. Would like to hear your opinion about the on sensor light metering and the triple sensor of M11 vs the M10R in terms of the Leica experience. I have an M10. Appreciate your time and help! Cheers!
Leica is refreshing its M line up too quick, although understandable in this day and age, but i think this strategy will depreciate the brand value of M line faster, and consumers will react to this trend, and further hurt the M brand image. Il
Kodachrome I prefor Kodak Kodachrome 25 ASA colour slide film above Kodachrome 64 and Kodachrome 200. Of course mounted in carton frames. PLus a 24 volt Leitz projector.
@@CrueLoaf Depends. I think retaining full resolution and crop-ability is good practice and future proof. Algorithms and display devices are continuously improving. But everyone is different. I know people who still shoot JPEG only (with sRGB color) and are happy with it. Photography is an art, and there is no right or wrong.
Some at Leica, Jesko who is product responsible for the Leica M11 have mentioned that the benefit in image quality from downsizing to 37MP can also be achieved in Photoshop. Then next discussion is if there IS an improvement.
Thorsten, you're the third person I know who responded to the M11 by buying a 10-R Black Paint....there's something very un-Leica about the always-open shutter. The metering advantage seems a very poor reasons to to compromise its essence.
There's something very Leica (users) about buying more of the older cameras whenever new cameras come out. The number of people who bought two of the same camera "to make sure to always have one" is quite a large number. Shows that they made something that works really well.
Thorsten - Can I ask what you think about the built in memory in the M11? Will this inevitably increase in future models? Could built in memory for cameras spell the end of SD cards in the future?
I totally agree with you - Leica M10-R Black Paint is the holy grail of Leica cameras. Even though Leica M11 is newer it doesn't necessarily make it better than some earlier Leica M camera.
Thank you for this video. Very informative. I love the part with the color pallet comparing all the different Ms. looks like m10R has the most punchy Reds? I’m shooting m9 now, and I’m wondering if you have or can add M9 color palette to the sheet to compare it to the rests of the new Ms. maybe you have that somewhere already? Thank you so much!!!
There is a color palette with the M9 also in my article "The Colors of the Leica M11" here: www.overgaard.dk/leica-M11-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-2.html
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard thank you for that! I just found it! It’s insane! The color difference! I’ll take some time to read through your post on the m11 as well. an idea: everyone always makes videos on the Ms and mostly technical aspect and shooting experience aspect. No one has made a video comparing the “raw dng” colors on each M and comparing them. Would LOVE to see that! People are always saying “the Leica colors are amazing” but it differs from one model to the next. I’m a true believer of the M9 colors. 🤯 But eventually would love to have 2nd/main camera/work horse camera that’s newer and higher resolution. But want to find one that’s as close to the M9 colors as possible.
Thank you so much for all of the great informative videos. Do you know why the black version of the M11 doesn't have the brass top plate? I love the feel of the brass and its seems so odd to make two different bodies. Have you used the black M11? Is it a substantial difference in feel? Honestly just curious. Thank you so much for your time and keep up the great work and great videos.
Yes, it is odd. But people who got the black seem to like the lower weight. I went with silver for brass and I didn't believe that the the black pain will grow older with a pleasant patina. No idea the reason why. Maybe some have said they would like lower weight, though I never ever heard a single person wishing for a lower weight for the M. Economy could be another consideration. Thinking of it, I actually haven't heard anyone from Leica give a reason.
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard Thank you so much for taking the time to ponder this. It just baffled me so much. I'm crossing my fingers they will come out with a M11-P in black paint and bring back the brass. Or maybe I will wait for a cow to jump over the moon :)
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard they said because of environmental concerns. which usually means, they were happy to save some money for cheaper material and finish
Hi Thorsten, I hardly ever hear you mention the 262, but you often mention the 240. When you talk about the development you mention M8, M9, 240 and then M10 s there any reason why you skip the 262?
M-D 262 us basically the M240, without a screen. Nice camera, used it and had one. But it des too complicated mentioning all models that were made of the M240.
The big difference though is that it has no video and therefore no live view so I think that's quite a distinct difference and that set a precedent for the M10 etc
@@georgedemetriou1496 Every M10 series camera has live view. The absence of video in the 262 and onward was/is in response to the Leica user community, to whom Leica listens.
Hi Thorsten, thank you for this video. I'm a long time M7 shooter and I'm looking into getting a digital M, I know the M10-R is readily available, and I'm also on the waitlist for an M11. Your thoughts?
You have to go with what feels right. The camera that makes you most enthusiastic, that's the one. It's like choosing a new kidden, there's one that is cuter than the rest. I don't know why people don't do the same with cameras, cars, lenses They usually do with houses, because you always recognize, "This is the right house, let's move in!". So same for cameras. You know which one 🙂
That notorious high sensitivity to camera shake and tremor of M11 keeps me away from it ! I think M10-R hits the perfect spot of usability and technology !
And the shutter. The M11’s weird shutter sound isn’t talked about enough. It’s super annoying if you’re used to a responsive single action shutter sound.
I am still on a M-D and in 2020 got a Q2, thought I would move to a SL2 but somehow the Q2 and SL2 feel very similar and they still not keep me loyal and I keep thinking about a new M. Now when I am on a hunt for a M, the remaining choice is only M11, sigh.... I am wishing for a M11-P in black paint...
M10-P Black Paint could happen. Contrary to rumors, black paint is still possible (some have said it is not possible with black paint anymore due to enviromental regulations, but that is not true).
Thorsten thank you for your reviews.I am thinking is 60mp good for handheld shooting and zone focus?I don’t like that M11 top plate is not made o brass.Personal I would like a new M with ccd sensor,16 or 24mp,without sensor’s corrosion problem,with a little more light sensitivity from M9 (3200 usable iso) and with low shutter noise (like M10p).
@@jonathanbengordon8984 Thanks but I was thinking of the M10 range of 24mp models. I've come across a couple on ebay but didn't trust the sources . . . or ebay in general for that matter. Looking at reputable Leica resellers but not finding any new M10's. Might start looking locally for a used one in good condition.
I know Leica listens to what we say here, so we have to be careful what we say, right? People are trying to justify trading in their M10-Rs on the new M11 - and you're NOT helping. Does the M11 take better pictures? If I took the same photograph with the M11 and the M10-R, could I tell the difference? In difficult lighting, would a photo take with the M11 look noticeably "better" than the same photo taken with an M10-R? That's the question we need answered.
@@diegaulle9143 , that's what I was asking: if I saw the same photo taken with both cameras, could I tell the difference between the two photos? Should I trade in my M10-R on a new M11 or not? Thorsten didn't answer that question. I have a friend who has an M11 - he lives a thousand miles away - and I have yet to see any of his 60mp photos. They're simply too big to send via Gmail? That'd be a real nuisance, but I haven't heard anyone talk about such a problem with the M11 and its huge files. I have an older "smart" TV and it can't seem to handle my 40mp M10-R files (stored on a thumb drive).
@@Gravitys-NOT-a-force The author is not a huge fan of the M11, mostly because of the color rendition. I think that has been made clear. Do you miss the one and a half stops? Do you like to live on one battery? Do you usually crop? If you answer these questions with yes and you can afford it, then buy it. And then buy the M12 when it comes out. And so on. And if you decide to stay with the M10-R, watch some reviews from when it came out. They were very positive and if you have forgotten... it´s the same camera as back then!
Thanks for your insightful opinions; this week I found a good deal on an almost new M10-R and went for it. Next, as soon as the R is finally in my hands, I'll put my M10 on the block and try to make the best of the upgrade. Then, I'll probably have to evaluate the advantages or disadvantages of eventually getting the M11, such as parting with the Viso 20 and the obsoleted (2 extra) batteries or jus be contented with the pretty impressive gains of the R over the 2017 one. Actually, I'm starting to think the 40mp of the R might prove more of a hindrance than a feature for someone who seldom prints 17x22" --the max my printer can handle, and a size that framed will be yearning for a suitable wall to hang from; as a matter of fact I seldom print even 11x17" nowadays. Really miss my darkroom days when I would do 20x30 in my darkroom from the Toyo 4x5. I know the 11 will beat that but I'm not walking that path again. 😂
Using Leicas since the last century; IIIf, M6, M2, MP... Darkroom dweller with experience from 1967 in B&W, color since 1972. Dropped chemical color in 2008 (Epson proved they could do better) and chem B&W in 2013 when Ilford created their digital clone of MG4/FB baryta on fiber paper that through Epson printers is *indistinguishable* from the selenium prints that took me over two hours to process (DSF, wash 1h; tone in selenium wash 1h, air dry.... etc, etc,...). Leica couldn't offer me anything comparable to Fujifilm until recently; thus, I traded a wealth of film gear M6, Rolleiflex 6008 with 3 lenses and accessories, Toyo Field 45 with two lenses, Saunders 4500, 3 lenses, Jobo processor, Safelights, etc, etc, etc. towards a meager M10 body. I feel, well, shortchanged. Nevertheless, the aforementioned film gear -- much as I enjoyed it for decades - wasn't getting but cobwebs. The M10 since it arrived me in last October gets daily use. I do miss my darkroom Tuesdays (shoot Sunday, develop film on Monday, print Tuesday) but somehow the ocassional roll through the M2 (or MP) ease the itch. The rest of the time, the M10 (2017) fills my needs. BTW, this septuagenary has never considered cameras anything else than *tools!* 🛠😂
Please can you show us how to transfer photos on the M11 without taking the SD card connected to Apple MacBook via cable. I want to browse to be a able to copy and paste the data from the camera to MacBook.
You simply connect a USB-C cable between the camera and computer, and the M11 will show up on the computer like any hard drive or SD card. Then you just copy the photos over, or import via Lightroom or Capture One. And then delete the photos in the camra by dragging them into the Trash and empty the Trash (or delete from the camera menu, but this is easier). You can also write internal memory to an SD card when you insert one. Another way of doing it.
I never understood the whole Leica thing. With that said. I think the M11 is a huge step forward. This one is a game changer. Watch sony and friends copy the tech.
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard im an x100 original user. I recently saw a few reviews of the M11 and it has alot to offer. Some of the tech is very smart. Like internal memory. I have noticed lieca lenses have a distinct aperture blade pattern when stopped down. I guess it might add character to the images and make them identifiable among leica users . Idk
For me M10R is the last real M camera. All so called improvements of M11 are complete nonsense and are only marketing based things. 60 megapixels without stabilization is not a good idea, sony sensor in leica is not my thing too (rly?), battery improvement is great (but I have never complain about battery life in my M10R!). I also don't need a faster shutter speed. Also that electronic shutter is causing only problems with motion blur so what is the point? No bottom plate, no brass... For me the M10R is a pinnacle of M system.
The last real M is the M10-P seeing the light loss per pixel from the M10-R on due to the necessity to preserve the sensor size while adding more pixels… This translates as a “greyish veil” visible on the full image as shown by Thorsten on the BW-image here. Smaller pixels with respect to those of the M10-P are a blind alley for the M!
@@tjmanou6422 If as you say its a Sony sensor, that’s as far as that sensor remains a Sony. Leica will tweak it and make it give the Leica look they are famous for. Manufacturers all buy into other Manufacturers technologies and use it in their own gear. That’s life.
@@victorcarmelo8606 I agree but I never said it is :) I was asking if it was :))) the guy who started this thread claimed but I can’t find any evidence
@@tjmanou6422 Few manufacture sensors, so all brands get their sensors from somewhere that also supply other brands. This sensor is for sure special made for Leica, and previous models have used special made models from Kodak, etc. If you took out your Sony a7 sensor and mounted it in the Leica, it would look quite different 🙂
I just bought my first M body. Went for a used mint condition M10R. Love it and you save a chunk of change. This video has made me feel like it was the right decision. Thanks.
The M10, M10-P and M10-R (and M10M and M10-D) are workhorses with 5-6 years of proven record for that model and specifications. Simple and effective. Can't really go wrong with them.
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaardI’m looking hard at an m10-p or m10m.
It’s almost a form of meditation listening Thorsten talking about his Leica cameras. His thick and beautifully melodious voice and the unhidden passion he has for his trade and the tools he uses to create some of the most gorgeous images I have ever seen… a real artist, thru & thru. Thanks.
Sublime mastery and wisdom from Thorsten. Aware as always of every aspect and subtlety. Links the past to the present with harmony and style.
I still use the original silver chrome M8 and silver chrome M9-P, just recently added a SL (Typ 601) for versatility and adapting all kinds of amazing lenses. Maybe I will add a M11 in seven years from now..
I've secured a new M10-R Black Paint. i like the finish, weight and bottom plate. it was probably the last chance at brass. All the Best for you and thanks.
I am on the M11 waiting list at my local Leica dealer. Perhaps I stick with my M10-R and buy a new lens instead?! Food for thought. Thank you Thorsten.
I just bought the m10-R in black paint. My first Leica. Thank you Thorsten for the meaningful content and teachings. I love your work. Hopefully, I join you on a walk in the future. Until then, I’ll always wear my Leica.
I will do the same
I chose the M10R over the M10P - not for the increased MP but for the improved low light capability. M11 is further improved for low light while still having higher resolution. All are great!
Well, you are so right. I'm stuck with my M9 which I still have since it came out. Each new generation deceived me, except the M10 which is to expensive. I went the CL route which complements my M9 in an amazing way.
The M9 is amazing
I’m a silver guy, but that black paint R…. 😍
I do enjoy seeing the modernizing of the Leica M.
Great video Thorsten!
That m10R you bought to keep and enjoy forever is the best camera to get in the M system.
Nice move Thorsten.
All the best.
I picked up a like new M10-R recently and glad I did, love the camera.
Good one! Your photo examples near the end of the video, especially the B&W ones, are beautiful. I own the M10-R and it was good to hear you say in a flash how the Leica colors (since the M9) seem to reflect Kodachrome. My camera still strikes me has having a Kodachrome look, but with amazing dynamic range, and it's my favorite for capturing what I see when taking a photo. I hope when full Lightroom profiles are installed for the M11 it returns to the same color profile, in case I ever get one of those. Regarding megapixels, I leave the house with one camera and one lens, usually the 35mm f/1.4 Sumilux, and I often find in street photography that being able to crop way in gives me the image I realy wanted, so the 40 MP means a lot to me just for that. I guess in that respect, 60 MP would give me even a better image after crop, assuming I could hold the camera still enough!
Thoughtful presentation. Thanks! I watched this when newly-posted, but believe this to be my first comment, as I was still deciding whether, and what, to acquire, in February. Ultimately, as much as I wished to add an M10 Monochrom, or a Black-Painted M10-R, I decided that 2022 would be a year for lenses, adding pre-owned APO Summicron-M 75mm ASPH and Elmar-M 24mm lenses.
The 75mm APO-Summicron is an exciting lens 🙂
Two things. I hope the lack of a base plate doesn’t signal the end of the M film cameras. And two, all those clicks makes the M11 as noisy as a DSLR. Thanks for the detailed comparison of the M11 to other digital Ms.
Don't worry about the base plate, not a problem making the film cameras still. But for digital, it make some sense to change the battery insert.
I totally skipped the entire M10 line as I had a great looking brassed MP240. Until the M10R Black Paint was released and I was very happy to lay my hands on one of this limited series. It is definitely the most beautiful Leica ever made, next to the black film MP. This will be my keeper for many years to come. Oh and the quality is even higher than the M240, people now even more often then before make comments on the color rendering
The blackpaint MP is the most desireable of all Leicas. I got mine in 2003 (#2890xxx) and it shows its _kilometraje_ now; top & bottom decks, film advance lever, some scratches on that glossy paint. If the grandson that gets it when I kick the 🗑 doesn't like the brass, it can always be painted and restored as new. I'm using it more these days since I'm getting HC-110 again. Keeping the M10 for color. 😉
I love your no nonsense approach with your reviews. That black paint finish is gorgeous.
Thank you 🙂
Good advice Thorsten, I'm going for a M10-R Black paint and will wait on the M11P. Hope your well
I don’t see any reason to upgrade from M10R to M11, besides the fact to just höher something new… but when buying into M first time I’d probably buy the M11… but for me the greatest about Leica M is exactly that there is no significant difference between M9 and M10R, always just pure fun and joy to use.
Glas is more desirable to me, eG Noctilux 50mm….
I’m interested in your thoughts…
Today (November 2022), would you buy the M10-R or the M11? I personally don’t like the M11 because it’s a few steps too far from what an M is about). Do you think the M10-R will hold its value? Or should I wait until Leica make an M11-D or something like that?
In the US, pre-owned M10-R’s, with warranty, are going for $3k less than new. There do not appear to be many M11’s in the used market. For this reason the M10-R is a no brainer, for me. However, I never buy new, and always buy pre-owned from a reputable dealer 2-3 years post-launch.
Without thinking too much I bought a new Leica M-A, a film camera. My thinking at the time was that buying the M-A was like buying a brand new M3, i.e. a used M3 without the hassles of old age. Now, I'm re-learning the real hassles of using film. Something you might address in one of your videos are the pros and cons of the different types of film. Which film is your favorite for portraits? Which is your favorite film for scenery? Where I live Kodak Portra 160 - my favorite film - is only available once in a while - and I can only buy one box of Portra 160 per visit to my camera store! That is one of the real hassles of shooting film. There are others.
Portra 160 is my favorite. Try to buy film on Amazon eventually.
Waiting for the M11-P. I have been using DRF Leica M since the M8 and I know now to wait. The first iteration of the M10 to the M10R is a huge difference. I think the M10-R is the penultimate iteration of the digital M, which is good enough until the M11-P usurps the M11. I want the updated firmware to its fine-tuned perfection (or as close to it) before I decide on a higher resolution than 40MP. I also took a long time to update my SL to the SL2-S (then back the the SL2), and I haven't upgraded my Q, nor my S typ 007. Know your tools, use them until their shelf life and use is completely obsolete, but in Leica's case I would use something RED camera used as a phrase a long time ago... Leica is obsolescence obsolete. They are ALL good.
Nice video as usual. Do you think that the dynamic range and low-light ability have improved appreciably in the latest models? Thanks
I'm excited about the M11....because hopefully that means I'll be able to buy a used M10 at a reasonable price lol.
With the launch of the M11, I believe it is time to upgrade my M9 to a M10P and try out this CMOS sensor. I believe that 24MP is enough for an M.
M10-P is a great workhorse. The most stable digital M I have had.
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard what is deferent between m10 and m10p?
I have a m246 monochrome and 24mp is enough
Best part of M11 release is that you make more videos:) Btw I am happy with M240 but M10 Black paint…👌
Dear Prof. Overgaard,
Leica M is the planned last digital M camera, just like M6 is the last M film camera. After this last digital M (Nick named 240), Leica could not shoot the golden eggs chicken down, and relaunched the M family bodies. But, the real new camera is the Q2 from which extended M family inherited from its innovations.
This is just the way I feel it, and it’s just my humble opinion.
Regards
Pascal
The bodies of the M 10-R and M 11 also differ slightly. You can see this by looking at the upper end of the leather.
Hello, Thorsten. I always enjoy your perspective on all things photographic. I have a number of modern digital Leica camera bodies and lenses. My favorite one by far is my M10 Monochrom. I love b/w and this camera fulfills that love. I currently have my name on a waiting list for a new M11. However, I’m starting to wonder if I really want the latest camera since I’m very much enjoying what I have and plan on getting a Summaron 28mm f/5.6 to compliment my collection of lenses. I think buying all the latest and greatest cameras is exciting, kind of like the dating term “playing the field”, until you finally realize you’ve found the one you truly love, settle down and make a long term commitment. Sorry for waxing philosophical.
I think that one should go with that feels right. If you cannot stop thinking about the M11, go get one. If you are happy with what you got and can sleep at night without worring if you are missing out, then you probably aren't 🙂
I'm not sure I'll get the M11 , I shot with the M-P240 until recently , I've since upgraded to the M10-D which I'm more than happy with
I was surprised you didn’t have any thoughts to share on the M10 Monochrom.
i never did a decision between this M OR that M. So i am now in the situation to own 5 pieces of them, all brandnew.....:-) and i am happy with every single M. (M7, MP, M10 , M10r Black Paint and DLux)
Thanks for the informative video thorsten, the moment some leaks of M11 started to go wild, i snapped the last available M10-R bp available to me, i was enjoying so much my m10-p safari but my mind started going rouge when the BP was announced but i thought i’d wait n see what M11 has to offer, while enjoying my MP BP too
I am glad you are going to spend some serious time shooting and playing with the M11 and not only with shooting but also with post editing so your review make sense, where others shoot for 2 weeks and call themselves a "M11 specialist" or the like.
Looking forward to your findings and experiences.
Which would you go for if you want to buy First Digital M, second hand M10R or brand new M11?
Thanks,
It's been a bit now. What do you think of the sensor differences between the M11, M10-R, and M10?
I will be keeping my M10-R for a long while, since I have no need to have multiple bodies it will remain my only Leica.
I have the Leica Q i bought used forme the inheritance from my nother. Some time it will be nice to have a 50mm, so i Think i Will look for the m10-r and a voigtleander 50 mm lens. But i am not sure about the lens, is it good enough, Also for the m11?🤷🏼♂️
Well then ,I would love to keep going on with the Leica 10-R. Thank you for sharing 👍👍👍
Thanks for the review, it is time to get a new M10R now.....
When I upgraded from my M9-P which I still have, to the M10-P (both in silver), I told a friend that it was the last Leica M I was likely to buy. I didn’t know how prophetic that was!
The M10-R with 40MP and the increased Bulb time is appealing and as much as I was tempted to go for the Black Paint, I skipped it. I would love it in silver in the same style - no red dot, Leica / Ernst Leitz / Wetzlar Germany script on top plate. Thorsten, if you have any influence with Leica, please make that happen! 🙏
The advances in the M11 are understandable and expected. Some I like, but most do not need and would make little difference to me. So, I’ll be sticking with my M10-P and build my lens collection. Unless you can convince Leica for a silver P style M10-R 😏
The M10-R in silver should be pretty close to that wish then.
I bought the Leica M11. I went from hating it to loving it realizing that what it did was awaken my dormant love of the art of photography again. Years ago I had my own darkroom. That is where I was most creative. Current years of digital photography has made me less a part of the process. This camera has reawakened me.
Any camera that makes you enthusiastic about photography is a good camera 🙂
We used to spend our nights in the darkroom and now we spend our days in the lightroom.
Het Thorsten, you said M10R is exactly the same as M10 just more megapix. Doesn't M10R have a new sensor technology? Was M11 sensor made/helped by Sony? Thank you
M10-R sensor is CMOS, the M11 sensor is CMOS backlit sensor (and triple resolution), so definitely another sensors. Without starting a war on M10 / M10-R, let's just state that the one is 24MP and the other is 40MP and they are very similar.
As a non M user but intrigued: did not get a killer decision point here, 40mpx, the sound of clicking?
Nice video. I got a M10R new for 7,000 and just love it.
Good deal 🙂
Hej, nice to see you again, with your forever fresh passion of Leica M family. 👍
Thank you :-)
Hi Thorsten! I’m trying to decide between M11 and M10R. Would like to hear your opinion about the on sensor light metering and the triple sensor of M11 vs the M10R in terms of the Leica experience. I have an M10. Appreciate your time and help! Cheers!
I am getting a MAGENTA cast on my M-11P and am shocked. What is the solution? I head the M10R is better. Can you do a comparison video?
Hi Thorsten hope you are well. I love my BP M10-R so much so waiting for a BP M11
I agree, Milan. Every Leica should be made in premium aesthetic edition (only).
Leica is refreshing its M line up too quick, although understandable in this day and age, but i think this strategy will depreciate the brand value of M line faster, and consumers will react to this trend, and further hurt the M brand image. Il
I had a chance to buy new and got a 10R Black Paint (Only had 1 in stock). The 10R is the perfect M. Black Paint 10R is the forever Leica.
Yes, M10-R in Black Paint is a forever Leica 🙂
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard I take it out every day. If you’re going to put $9,000 down on a camera, might as well be the 10R BP.
Kodachrome
I prefor Kodak Kodachrome 25 ASA colour slide film
above Kodachrome 64 and Kodachrome 200.
Of course mounted in carton frames.
PLus a 24 volt Leitz projector.
The “triple sensor” idea is actually a rescale/crop algorithm performed in firmware and can be done in postprocessing with same or better results.
but you would still be filling up memory space both on the camera and initially the hard drive.
@@CrueLoaf True, but who can afford a M11 can certainly afford a bigger card/drive.
@@dans.8198 but surely it’s inefficient work practice.
@@CrueLoaf Depends. I think retaining full resolution and crop-ability is good practice and future proof. Algorithms and display devices are continuously improving.
But everyone is different. I know people who still shoot JPEG only (with sRGB color) and are happy with it. Photography is an art, and there is no right or wrong.
Some at Leica, Jesko who is product responsible for the Leica M11 have mentioned that the benefit in image quality from downsizing to 37MP can also be achieved in Photoshop. Then next discussion is if there IS an improvement.
Good thoughts and information as always Thorsten, I will stick to my M9 and M10R and invest in a new lens
I also have the M10R in black paint, I’m very happy with this camera. But the M10R has not the best color management, so I have a bit more work in LR
Thorsten, you're the third person I know who responded to the M11 by buying a 10-R Black Paint....there's something very un-Leica about the always-open shutter. The metering advantage seems a very poor reasons to to compromise its essence.
There's something very Leica (users) about buying more of the older cameras whenever new cameras come out. The number of people who bought two of the same camera "to make sure to always have one" is quite a large number. Shows that they made something that works really well.
Thorsten - Can I ask what you think about the built in memory in the M11? Will this inevitably increase in future models? Could built in memory for cameras spell the end of SD cards in the future?
Buit-in memory is great. Unlikely SD-cards goes away anytime soon. Though, if one had AirDrop in a Leica, that would be nice.
I totally agree with you - Leica M10-R Black Paint is the holy grail of Leica cameras. Even though Leica M11 is newer it doesn't necessarily make it better than some earlier Leica M camera.
I dont have an M10 or any any Leica M digital cameras. I have a couple Leica M film cameras. And I just ordered an M11.
Thank you, for your honesty ,u kind man, Great fan
Thorsten, do we need to upgrade our lenses to APO lenses when using the M11?
Thank you for this video. Very informative.
I love the part with the color pallet comparing all the different Ms. looks like m10R has the most punchy Reds?
I’m shooting m9 now, and I’m wondering if you have or can add M9 color palette to the sheet to compare it to the rests of the new Ms. maybe you have that somewhere already?
Thank you so much!!!
There is a color palette with the M9 also in my article "The Colors of the Leica M11" here: www.overgaard.dk/leica-M11-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-2.html
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard thank you for that! I just found it! It’s insane! The color difference!
I’ll take some time to read through your post on the m11 as well.
an idea: everyone always makes videos on the Ms and mostly technical aspect and shooting experience aspect.
No one has made a video comparing the “raw dng” colors on each M and comparing them. Would LOVE to see that!
People are always saying “the Leica colors are amazing” but it differs from one model to the next. I’m a true believer of the M9 colors. 🤯
But eventually would love to have 2nd/main camera/work horse camera that’s newer and higher resolution. But want to find one that’s as close to the M9 colors as possible.
Thank you so much for all of the great informative videos. Do you know why the black version of the M11 doesn't have the brass top plate? I love the feel of the brass and its seems so odd to make two different bodies. Have you used the black M11? Is it a substantial difference in feel? Honestly just curious. Thank you so much for your time and keep up the great work and great videos.
Yes, it is odd. But people who got the black seem to like the lower weight. I went with silver for brass and I didn't believe that the the black pain will grow older with a pleasant patina. No idea the reason why. Maybe some have said they would like lower weight, though I never ever heard a single person wishing for a lower weight for the M. Economy could be another consideration. Thinking of it, I actually haven't heard anyone from Leica give a reason.
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard Thank you so much for taking the time to ponder this. It just baffled me so much. I'm crossing my fingers they will come out with a M11-P in black paint and bring back the brass. Or maybe I will wait for a cow to jump over the moon :)
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard they said because of environmental concerns. which usually means, they were happy to save some money for cheaper material and finish
Hi Thorsten, I hardly ever hear you mention the 262, but you often mention the 240. When you talk about the development you mention M8, M9, 240 and then M10 s there any reason why you skip the 262?
M-D 262 us basically the M240, without a screen. Nice camera, used it and had one. But it des too complicated mentioning all models that were made of the M240.
262 is same internals as 240, and considered a part of the 240 series.
The big difference though is that it has no video and therefore no live view so I think that's quite a distinct difference and that set a precedent for the M10 etc
@@georgedemetriou1496 Every M10 series camera has live view. The absence of video in the 262 and onward was/is in response to the Leica user community, to whom Leica listens.
Hi Thorsten, thank you for this video. I'm a long time M7 shooter and I'm looking into getting a digital M, I know the M10-R is readily available, and I'm also on the waitlist for an M11. Your thoughts?
You have to go with what feels right. The camera that makes you most enthusiastic, that's the one. It's like choosing a new kidden, there's one that is cuter than the rest. I don't know why people don't do the same with cameras, cars, lenses They usually do with houses, because you always recognize, "This is the right house, let's move in!". So same for cameras. You know which one 🙂
That notorious high sensitivity to camera shake and tremor of M11 keeps me away from it ! I think M10-R hits the perfect spot of usability and technology !
And the shutter. The M11’s weird shutter sound isn’t talked about enough. It’s super annoying if you’re used to a responsive single action shutter sound.
On the 18 mp Pixel binning, does the iso increase due to the larger kombined Pixels ?
I am still on a M-D and in 2020 got a Q2, thought I would move to a SL2 but somehow the Q2 and SL2 feel very similar and they still not keep me loyal and I keep thinking about a new M. Now when I am on a hunt for a M, the remaining choice is only M11, sigh.... I am wishing for a M11-P in black paint...
M10-P Black Paint could happen. Contrary to rumors, black paint is still possible (some have said it is not possible with black paint anymore due to enviromental regulations, but that is not true).
Did you have your shutter replace for your two M9? 200K shots each !
Never had any shutter replaced on any Leica.
Good discussion.
Keeping my M10-D
Thorsten thank you for your reviews.I am thinking is 60mp good for handheld shooting and zone focus?I don’t like that M11 top plate is not made o brass.Personal I would like a new M with ccd sensor,16 or 24mp,without sensor’s corrosion problem,with a little more light sensitivity from M9 (3200 usable iso) and with low shutter noise (like M10p).
Excellent summation!🙂
M9 Forever
Another excellent presentation … thanks!
Thank you 🙂
🌹🌹🌹grt detail of Leica M10 camera 📷 modern solution 🌹🌹🌹🌹for grt photographer 🙏🙏🙏
Like your videos! Do you have a review on M8?
No, never really used the M8. Jumped straight to M9 from Leica dSLR.
"More megapixels ..." Oh dear, is that what photography is all about these days?
Pixel binning ... it's done in software by the processor
It's unfortunate that the 24mp cameras are no longer available new.
You could probably find a few around, and there's also still limited editions available in white and other editions - brand new.
You can still get a new mp 240 camera, virgin in the box. Several nyc stores have them, including photocare.
@@jonathanbengordon8984 Thanks but I was thinking of the M10 range of 24mp models. I've come across a couple on ebay but didn't trust the sources . . . or ebay in general for that matter. Looking at reputable Leica resellers but not finding any new M10's. Might start looking locally for a used one in good condition.
@@bernardlesperance742 ah. But the mp 240 is indeed 24 mp, just saying. I bought a new one recently, it’s fun to use.
@@jonathanbengordon8984 I know the M's are 24 mp. But having used each, I much prefer the M10's. Glad you enjoy the MP 240.
Noch eimal. Always a good presentation without being stilted or pedantic. More Baker and Mulligan covers. OK? ;o)
Interesting!
Man you are so much rougher with your cameras than I am with my M10R.
The can take it 🙂
The casual contempt with which he slaps the $9k USD camera onto the table.
I know Leica listens to what we say here, so we have to be careful what we say, right? People are trying to justify trading in their M10-Rs on the new M11 - and you're NOT helping. Does the M11 take better pictures? If I took the same photograph with the M11 and the M10-R, could I tell the difference? In difficult lighting, would a photo take with the M11 look noticeably "better" than the same photo taken with an M10-R? That's the question we need answered.
Of course it doesn't, that's up to you, any fool knows that
Of course it does. Every sensitivity stop counts. But YOU take better pictures. The M11 just makes better files.
@@diegaulle9143 , that's what I was asking: if I saw the same photo taken with both cameras, could I tell the difference between the two photos? Should I trade in my M10-R on a new M11 or not? Thorsten didn't answer that question. I have a friend who has an M11 - he lives a thousand miles away - and I have yet to see any of his 60mp photos. They're simply too big to send via Gmail? That'd be a real nuisance, but I haven't heard anyone talk about such a problem with the M11 and its huge files. I have an older "smart" TV and it can't seem to handle my 40mp M10-R files (stored on a thumb drive).
@@Gravitys-NOT-a-force The author is not a huge fan of the M11, mostly because of the color rendition. I think that has been made clear. Do you miss the one and a half stops? Do you like to live on one battery? Do you usually crop? If you answer these questions with yes and you can afford it, then buy it. And then buy the M12 when it comes out. And so on. And if you decide to stay with the M10-R, watch some reviews from when it came out. They were very positive and if you have forgotten... it´s the same camera as back then!
@@diegaulle9143 , thanks for that. I was hoping someone could convince me to buy an M-11. No one's tried very hard.
How about a M11-D? 👍
In 2023-2024 I guess.
Thanks for your insightful opinions; this week I found a good deal on an almost new M10-R and went for it. Next, as soon as the R is finally in my hands, I'll put my M10 on the block and try to make the best of the upgrade. Then, I'll probably have to evaluate the advantages or disadvantages of eventually getting the M11, such as parting with the Viso 20 and the obsoleted (2 extra) batteries or jus be contented with the pretty impressive gains of the R over the 2017 one. Actually, I'm starting to think the 40mp of the R might prove more of a hindrance than a feature for someone who seldom prints 17x22" --the max my printer can handle, and a size that framed will be yearning for a suitable wall to hang from; as a matter of fact I seldom print even 11x17" nowadays.
Really miss my darkroom days when I would do 20x30 in my darkroom from the Toyo 4x5. I know the 11 will beat that but I'm not walking that path again. 😂
I always thought the P in Mp stood for "press" ..... as in it was made for the press or journalism.....
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Ha ha, god one 🙂
Funny! Give it a nice little slap…
I won't be getting rid of my M10M, whatever happens.
Using Leicas since the last century; IIIf, M6, M2, MP... Darkroom dweller with experience from 1967 in B&W, color since 1972. Dropped chemical color in 2008 (Epson proved they could do better) and chem B&W in 2013 when Ilford created their digital clone of MG4/FB baryta on fiber paper that through Epson printers is *indistinguishable* from the selenium prints that took me over two hours to process (DSF, wash 1h; tone in selenium wash 1h, air dry.... etc, etc,...).
Leica couldn't offer me anything comparable to Fujifilm until recently; thus, I traded a wealth of film gear M6, Rolleiflex 6008 with 3 lenses and accessories, Toyo Field 45 with two lenses, Saunders 4500, 3 lenses, Jobo processor, Safelights, etc, etc, etc. towards a meager M10 body. I feel, well, shortchanged. Nevertheless, the aforementioned film gear -- much as I enjoyed it for decades - wasn't getting but cobwebs. The M10 since it arrived me in last October gets daily use. I do miss my darkroom Tuesdays (shoot Sunday, develop film on Monday, print Tuesday) but somehow the ocassional roll through the M2 (or MP) ease the itch. The rest of the time, the M10 (2017) fills my needs.
BTW, this septuagenary has never considered cameras anything else than *tools!* 🛠😂
I think it’s self evident the M11 is a far superior camera than the M10-R. Not a question in that, just a fact….
Preach! Lol
why does no reviewer talk about the notorious bugs?
I don’t like like the colours on the M11 Adobe profile is purplish 🥺
Adobe haven't made an official profile yet. The new Adobe RAW that came out doesn't contain M11 profile yet.
Adobe Standard looks good I think.
Please can you show us how to transfer photos on the M11 without taking the SD card connected to Apple MacBook via cable. I want to browse to be a able to copy and paste the data from the camera to MacBook.
You simply connect a USB-C cable between the camera and computer, and the M11 will show up on the computer like any hard drive or SD card. Then you just copy the photos over, or import via Lightroom or Capture One. And then delete the photos in the camra by dragging them into the Trash and empty the Trash (or delete from the camera menu, but this is easier).
You can also write internal memory to an SD card when you insert one. Another way of doing it.
Do a J turn..
sell all your digital and buy M6...
I never understood the whole Leica thing. With that said. I think the M11 is a huge step forward. This one is a game changer. Watch sony and friends copy the tech.
That's an interesting viewpoint. I hear mostly M users opinion. Tell me more what you think.
@@MagicOfLight_ThorstenOvergaard im an x100 original user. I recently saw a few reviews of the M11 and it has alot to offer. Some of the tech is very smart. Like internal memory. I have noticed lieca lenses have a distinct aperture blade pattern when stopped down. I guess it might add character to the images and make them identifiable among leica users . Idk
For me M10R is the last real M camera. All so called improvements of M11 are complete nonsense and are only marketing based things. 60 megapixels without stabilization is not a good idea, sony sensor in leica is not my thing too (rly?), battery improvement is great (but I have never complain about battery life in my M10R!). I also don't need a faster shutter speed. Also that electronic shutter is causing only problems with motion blur so what is the point? No bottom plate, no brass... For me the M10R is a pinnacle of M system.
Agree, Is ir teally a Sony sensor in M11? If it is forget it lol
The last real M is the M10-P seeing the light loss per pixel from the M10-R on due to the necessity to preserve the sensor size while adding more pixels… This translates as a “greyish veil” visible on the full image as shown by Thorsten on the BW-image here. Smaller pixels with respect to those of the M10-P are a blind alley for the M!
@@tjmanou6422 If as you say its a Sony sensor, that’s as far as that sensor remains a Sony. Leica will tweak it and make it give the Leica look they are famous for. Manufacturers all buy into other Manufacturers technologies and use it in their own gear. That’s life.
@@victorcarmelo8606 I agree but I never said it is :) I was asking if it was :))) the guy who started this thread claimed but I can’t find any evidence
@@tjmanou6422 Few manufacture sensors, so all brands get their sensors from somewhere that also supply other brands. This sensor is for sure special made for Leica, and previous models have used special made models from Kodak, etc.
If you took out your Sony a7 sensor and mounted it in the Leica, it would look quite different 🙂
I've noticed in most leica reviews they only ever compare them to other leicas...
Thanks for noticing. What other rangefinder(s) would you use for comparison?