Danzan Ryu still teaches these standing chokes and strangles. I'm a fan but we rarely allow them in sparring. But we drill them and require their proficiency for advancement.
Without the pressure test, is hard to be effective, in a self defense scenario, as i experienced myself working as a bouncer years ago, the realistic pressure test is very important, or your technique can fail in the most critical moment. I forgot to add that is great that you take the time to teach aboutold, but very effective techniques that are a very important part of the art.
Good video. That failed Tobi Juji Gatami at 5:12 was catastrophic. I saw a friend (3rd deg Ju-Jitsu) badly mess up his shoulder by landing on it when he lost his grip attempting the same years ago. I will never teach the flying arm bar and definitely never attempt it at my age.
Hapkido still teaches these types of standing techniques, although there isn’t much in the way of pressure testing. In all honesty, I know why. To do so would undoubtedly cause many more injuries in schools. We had many injuries already with all the joint locks, flipping and throwing. Since the late 80s when I was an instructor, it has softened considerably. We sometimes didn’t even use mats for the throws. The softening is probably what has added much to its popularity. I opened up a kickboxing club later, and people don’t really enjoy getting hurt and certainly don’t like paying for it. And, when children are involved, there is no room for serious injuries.
That's the problem in the west, one thing the people must always be reminded is they must not afraid getting hurt or get injured when step into martial art schools, it is something to be expected, otherwise don't learn martial art at all. If don't want to get into fight, don't learn how to fight. Well, perhaps it is coming out from different perception about martial art. Us in the east see martial art as warrior skills, learning it to become a warrior, to inherit ancient warrior culture. Of course in modern time today it is a sport, self defense and extracurricular in high school/college, but the core is when we step into the gelanggang/dojo we're one step into becoming a warrior. We know we will get hurt, suffering pain and likely get injuries because it is a path of a warrior. We pay the guru/sensei for that. There is saying that it is better to got beaten by the guru/sensei than got beaten by the crooks, by means expect to get pain. In the west however, have different mindset, from what I read and watching videos, I see that martial art is like a product, learn it "to keep you safe", that's why western people are so busy about martial art systems, which are better, which work or not work, which are proven in MMA/UFC and so on. It is because of the midset of don't want to get hurt, expecting learning the martial art will make them win a fight. Simply put, it's like choosing and buying a gun, western people want an assurance which guns are safe and best to buy. As if the gun will surely provide them safety. Either they're good at shooting or not doesn't matter because they have the best gun. Well, this is my personal observation anyway.
@@MizanQistina I dont know which art or cou try you ptactise in but that is complete bullshit.Whats practised in the orient is invariably nonsense outside judo and muay thai.
@@scarred10 I don't know where you come from, but if you need Judo and Muay Thai then your people is pathetic can't produce own effective martial art to be proud of.
Its enlightening to learn of the perils of throws, takedowns and groundfighting. I teach and practise wing Chun and we do some of these throws but we obviously dont have the thousands of hours behind us like the judokas. Thank you very much for sharing. The lessons of today are written in blood on tombstones.
There’s a decent section on these in Okano’s vital judo and in Adams’ armlock book. I teach them occasionally to my BJJ mates. They’re not that useful as controlled submissions because you have to apply them quite forcefully, but they are a very good way of punishing poor grippers.
Last I heard from my competition days : 5 or so years ago, standing arm bars or chokes were permitted as long as you didn't project and kept your opponent standing in a controlled fashion. I would do that for an opponent that wouldn't want to throw any moves and would just grip my kimono. In this slow situation, I would slowly crawl my arms in a position to make an ude gatame. If the partner was on his knees, and as long as you don't jump on an arm or a throat after a throw, you should not be hansokumake-ed. Showing your control and the security of your partner is key. Now I don't know either if I am still up to date with these rules
In sumo the wakigatame is actually a throw, multiple throws in fact! In ancient pale wrestling and pankration from the Greek and Roman eras they called it the armpit armbar but it often caused shoulder injuries and dislocations like in judo (when Korean judoka would do wakigatame fouls)
@@Chadi Correct however I am learning from you as well as showing respect. Many of my professors in college where going for their PHD's while teaching.
I think flying armbar in gi is alot safer I have countless submissions in ranked judo competition with flying armbar as I can use the gi to bring the uke down with my falling momentum however in my 5 years of no gi I haven't attempted once in this manner in no gi however all technique have their place if you find the correct time to implement them
I practice a martial art called sipalki where those are still allowed, but fornsafety reasons what i usually do is use them to throw the oponent but i let go after they are beyond the point of no return... Reason for that is that ifni hit the oponent while they sre on the ground i still win, so i dont need to go down with them
Thanks Chadi i always enjoy your clips on judo and related history. #1 is in, our jiu jitsu syllabus. a shoulder lock that can be turned into a take down we call arm & shoulder throw. We also use a version of #2 as a pain compliance lock that can also create a dislocation or break if required. Obviously these are designed to neutralise an enemy's arm in a real fight.... Probably not suitable for competition.
tech. at :43 we have this one as well in my Aikido system. In fact, I had an over excited student training this actually tore my bicep right off my arm, using this technique. I am sitting here typing right now, waiting for the VA to set up a surgery date to have it fixed.
I COMPLETELY agree with you. Flying chokes and joint locks are dangerous 4, but standing chokes and joint lock (in this case when uke has both knees on the ground) are sure. I agrre with you
I understand why many of these techniques are banned from Judo as sport. They are simply to dangerous. But they should be preserved as part of more complete Judo as combat martial art. Like self defence where people have to injure someone or they will be injured.
You always have some great Japanese instrument music on the background, but I can’t find it in the description of other videos either. It sounds like a type of guitar
We used to do waki-gatame when I was training kenpo (it was a hybrid between karate and ju-jutsu, and no, it wasn't kudo). I didn't know this was not permitted in judo.
Doing an armbar with a throw is probably a higher injury rate than kani basami, nothing to support that claim but it seems like it is hard to not injure it when the other person is falling on it too. I am personally against anything that doesn't give you enough control to hold back from hurting someone. Kani Basami is a high percentage throw, but you cant control the way your opponents ankles are gonna turn and how they are gonna try to pull out of it. I think the ude garami from standing might not be bad though or the chokes since they allow for some control. My gym personally taught us when you are choking while standing to keep moving and pulling the person around so you dont stand still long enough to be thrown. And after class I have done the standing ude garami as part of a takedown then sub and it worked amazingly.
This submission is difficult to catch not going full speed. Unlike many other submissions that can have a much slower/deliberate and controlled application
I've had my shoulder momentarily separated by wakigatame (technically, aikido's version that also adds in the wrist lock) in fairly slow, fairly compliant practice. When it happened, my partner (20+ years experience) also immediately noticed (her eyes got big, my eyes got big!), let off the pressure and my shoulder and fortunately my shoulder went right back into place (vice being further displaced, aggravating a separation to a what could have been a very painful dislocation). This was followed up her asking, "Are you okay? Are you sure you're okay? I think we should go slower." Me: "Yes, I'm okay. But that was too close. Yes, let's slow it down even more." My shoulder had a something of a dull ache that would come and go for about a month afterwards. That close call added to my conviction that it would be one of my go-to techniques for self-defense / protecting the defenseless.
Judo is a great sport, no doubt, but it must maintain its militaristic qualities as well. THe guy busted his own neck trying to be evasive and slick, like a BJJ practitioner instead of going all out at his opponent. Being slimy never works out in the end, terrible outcome.
lol this is like catch wrestling almost, I feel if we tried to save japanese jujutsu and added sparring and competition it would be like catch but leverage based instead of strength based.
4:14 Legal as the lock isn't applied as a submission while they are standing. Due to the risk of injury, the refs are instructed to call 'mate' anytime the arms are wrapped for ude-garami and both are standing, so it mainly occurs in transitions when both stand up during newaza after the arms are already wrapped and uke is brought back to the mat so quickly that the ref doesn't have time to call 'mate'. A good example is Hamada Shori's 1st round match at the Tokyo Olympics.
I have seen a lot of standing submission techniques in Nippon Kempo competition highlight videos but I think they are way too dangerous to practice in a sparring setting
Done that first standing submission once as a Deputy at a domestic, worked well since slamming a locked out elbow onto a tile floor resulted in a break and massive amounts of pain.
Submission is it when the guy has time to tap, otherwithe its just an armbreak. Thats why I prefer 2 on 1´s, when doing bouncer and law enforcement stuff. The difference in amount of force on the elbow to make the technique work and to make it break is pretty slim.
Chadi I don't think wakigatame is that dangerous. If you stay standing and don't collapse all your weight on the arm like you have shown in the video then you should be fine. In Tomiki Aikido we practice it safely. I've done wakigatame to people in randori close to a hundred times and I've never injured anyone. I've never seen someone with a broken arm from wakigatame in the Aikido tournaments I've been to. Anyway here's a video of various wakigatames in Aikido tournaments. th-cam.com/video/SIdiXWooeas/w-d-xo.html
I've had my shoulder separated by it. However, I do see a difference in the way it's being performed in comparison to the video you linked: the way I'm familiar with (which is the one popular with Aikikai-affliated organizations in the U.S.) locks the shoulder, bars the elbow, and optionally locks the wrist; we also keep close body contact, which also differs from the Tomiki-style tournament examples where it's mostly being applied to just the forearm & wrist. Note that I'm not criticizing the tournament method; just be aware that it doesn't take much to change this technique from reasonably safe to fairly dangerous.
まず問題定義は素晴らしい
今の勘違い柔道は 道着を着たレスリング 猿の喧嘩
立ち関節は復活させるべき 足も！
馬鹿だから背中を持って来る
倒れなければいいなら 小手投げで腕は折れる
まず姿勢 頭を下げたら倒してくださいと言うようなもの
腕を伸ばしても同じ
練習中は形だけやり 決める手前でやめるのが当たり前だ
最低毎日基礎練習し 体の基本的な裁きを覚えなければダメだ
はっきり言って今の柔道は「猿の喧嘩」 技術を復活させ 柔よく剛を制すを復活させるべき！！
因みに私の母は生きていれば百を超える
母の父 祖父は剣道を教えていた
侍の生き残り？
幼い子供は毎日切り返しだけ 三年間やらされたそう
武士の体術が 柔道 合気道 空手などで残っている
実は相撲はもっとも大事なトレーニング
モンゴルのチンギスハンは 日本の弁慶が源頼朝から逃げてなった
だからモンゴル相撲
コメントありがとうございました🙇🏻♂️
Great video as always! It’s nice to see some emphasis on older judo, as well as movements that are no longer allowed in competition. 🥋
Thank you
I'm a gracie jiu jitsu hobbyst, did Judo as a Kid, and I like your content very much
Thank You
so much old judo in jui jitsu. Thanks
Danzan Ryu still teaches these standing chokes and strangles. I'm a fan but we rarely allow them in sparring. But we drill them and require their proficiency for advancement.
You literally have the best judo Channel in all of TH-cam history
Thank you
Without the pressure test, is hard to be effective, in a self defense scenario, as i experienced myself working as a bouncer years ago, the realistic pressure test is very important, or your technique can fail in the most critical moment.
I forgot to add that is great that you take the time to teach aboutold, but very effective techniques that are a very important part of the art.
Good video. That failed Tobi Juji Gatami at 5:12 was catastrophic. I saw a friend (3rd deg Ju-Jitsu) badly mess up his shoulder by landing on it when he lost his grip attempting the same years ago. I will never teach the flying arm bar and definitely never attempt it at my age.
Yeah. The only one I will show is the fake/failed tomoe, which isn’t really a flying submission.
I studied judo in the 80s and my senseis were students at the kodokan. I didn’t advance far enough to learn these, but I saw them practiced.
Hapkido still teaches these types of standing techniques, although there isn’t much in the way of pressure testing. In all honesty, I know why. To do so would undoubtedly cause many more injuries in schools. We had many injuries already with all the joint locks, flipping and throwing. Since the late 80s when I was an instructor, it has softened considerably. We sometimes didn’t even use mats for the throws. The softening is probably what has added much to its popularity. I opened up a kickboxing club later, and people don’t really enjoy getting hurt and certainly don’t like paying for it. And, when children are involved, there is no room for serious injuries.
In Kata, they’re being done
That's the problem in the west, one thing the people must always be reminded is they must not afraid getting hurt or get injured when step into martial art schools, it is something to be expected, otherwise don't learn martial art at all. If don't want to get into fight, don't learn how to fight.
Well, perhaps it is coming out from different perception about martial art. Us in the east see martial art as warrior skills, learning it to become a warrior, to inherit ancient warrior culture. Of course in modern time today it is a sport, self defense and extracurricular in high school/college, but the core is when we step into the gelanggang/dojo we're one step into becoming a warrior. We know we will get hurt, suffering pain and likely get injuries because it is a path of a warrior. We pay the guru/sensei for that. There is saying that it is better to got beaten by the guru/sensei than got beaten by the crooks, by means expect to get pain.
In the west however, have different mindset, from what I read and watching videos, I see that martial art is like a product, learn it "to keep you safe", that's why western people are so busy about martial art systems, which are better, which work or not work, which are proven in MMA/UFC and so on. It is because of the midset of don't want to get hurt, expecting learning the martial art will make them win a fight. Simply put, it's like choosing and buying a gun, western people want an assurance which guns are safe and best to buy. As if the gun will surely provide them safety. Either they're good at shooting or not doesn't matter because they have the best gun. Well, this is my personal observation anyway.
@@MizanQistina I dont know which art or cou try you ptactise in but that is complete bullshit.Whats practised in the orient is invariably nonsense outside judo and muay thai.
@@scarred10 I don't know where you come from, but if you need Judo and Muay Thai then your people is pathetic can't produce own effective martial art to be proud of.
@@MizanQistina you are delusional
Its enlightening to learn of the perils of throws, takedowns and groundfighting. I teach and practise wing Chun and we do some of these throws but we obviously dont have the thousands of hours behind us like the judokas. Thank you very much for sharing. The lessons of today are written in blood on tombstones.
There’s a decent section on these in Okano’s vital judo and in Adams’ armlock book. I teach them occasionally to my BJJ mates. They’re not that useful as controlled submissions because you have to apply them quite forcefully, but they are a very good way of punishing poor grippers.
Last I heard from my competition days : 5 or so years ago, standing arm bars or chokes were permitted as long as you didn't project and kept your opponent standing in a controlled fashion.
I would do that for an opponent that wouldn't want to throw any moves and would just grip my kimono. In this slow situation, I would slowly crawl my arms in a position to make an ude gatame.
If the partner was on his knees, and as long as you don't jump on an arm or a throat after a throw, you should not be hansokumake-ed.
Showing your control and the security of your partner is key.
Now I don't know either if I am still up to date with these rules
Excellent information-thank You
Excelente video 👌 saludos de argentina
In sumo the wakigatame is actually a throw, multiple throws in fact!
In ancient pale wrestling and pankration from the Greek and Roman eras they called it the armpit armbar but it often caused shoulder injuries and dislocations like in judo (when Korean judoka would do wakigatame fouls)
All this can still be found in japanese Ju-Justu
This is wonderful historical footage and brilliant commentary.🍻👍
Ottimo video.
Complimenti.
Keep going Sensei Chadi, these videos are amazing.
Thank you! I’m just a student🙇🏻♂️
@@Chadi Correct however I am learning from you as well as showing respect. Many of my professors in college where going for their PHD's while teaching.
@@furunaki I appreciate it
As always Chadi, good video. Keep it up.
I think flying armbar in gi is alot safer I have countless submissions in ranked judo competition with flying armbar as I can use the gi to bring the uke down with my falling momentum however in my 5 years of no gi I haven't attempted once in this manner in no gi however all technique have their place if you find the correct time to implement them
Obrigado pela legenda em português Parabéns pelo trabalho ! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Genial video 👌 son técnicas muy efectivas
I practice a martial art called sipalki where those are still allowed, but fornsafety reasons what i usually do is use them to throw the oponent but i let go after they are beyond the point of no return... Reason for that is that ifni hit the oponent while they sre on the ground i still win, so i dont need to go down with them
Thanks Chadi i always enjoy your clips on judo and related history.
#1 is in, our jiu jitsu syllabus. a shoulder lock that can be turned into a take down we call arm & shoulder throw. We also use a version of #2 as a pain compliance lock that can also create a dislocation or break if required. Obviously these are designed to neutralise an enemy's arm in a real fight.... Probably not suitable for competition.
tech. at :43 we have this one as well in my Aikido system. In fact, I had an over excited student training this actually tore my bicep right off my arm, using this technique. I am sitting here typing right now, waiting for the VA to set up a surgery date to have it fixed.
These techniques look so interesting
I wish there would be much more variations known
I COMPLETELY agree with you. Flying chokes and joint locks are dangerous 4, but standing chokes and joint lock (in this case when uke has both knees on the ground) are sure. I agrre with you
you should have included the video footage of aoki using waki gatami to break some guys arm in a mma match
Some still used in aikido and most hand locks can be used when someone is in your guard in jiu-jitsu.
I understand why many of these techniques are banned from Judo as sport. They are simply to dangerous. But they should be preserved as part of more complete Judo as combat martial art. Like self defence where people have to injure someone or they will be injured.
Search Shinya Aoki standing armbar. He literally broke arms with this technique in MMA.
It's not forgotten, it just doesn't work against trained killas.
Stick to your games lil bro
Shinya aoki was crazy good at this
As 6 Dan in Sambo and Hapkido and Catch wrestling practitioner this is one of the best techniques
You always have some great Japanese instrument music on the background, but I can’t find it in the description of other videos either. It sounds like a type of guitar
We used to do waki-gatame when I was training kenpo (it was a hybrid between karate and ju-jutsu, and no, it wasn't kudo). I didn't know this was not permitted in judo.
Great channel
dangeruos well ok, still awsome stuff to know about !
You should review Shootboxing its kickingboxing with takedowns and throws and standing submissions the rules are interesting
Will do
Great video Chadi-san! Its nice to practice as Kata but generaly is extremely dangerous to do it in randori or competition
In hapkido we have most of these standing submissions
Dude sometimes the Judokas remind me of crocodiles doing the death roll😂
Chadi how do you edit your videos do you use premier pro and I'm pretty sure it takes so much of your time that is why we appreciate your effort.
I use a mix of imovie, shotcut and other image editing programs
@@Chadi ah nice
0:30 - Udehishigi wakigatame(Armlock)
2:05 - Hansoku make(Armlock + wrist twist)
3:50 - Ude garami (Armlock + pull up)
4:50 - Juji jime (Sacrificial cross choke)
7:20 - Conclusion
hansoku make is disqualification, not a technique
Gatame techniques standing can be practiced safely and are practical for self defense.
Doing an armbar with a throw is probably a higher injury rate than kani basami, nothing to support that claim but it seems like it is hard to not injure it when the other person is falling on it too. I am personally against anything that doesn't give you enough control to hold back from hurting someone. Kani Basami is a high percentage throw, but you cant control the way your opponents ankles are gonna turn and how they are gonna try to pull out of it. I think the ude garami from standing might not be bad though or the chokes since they allow for some control. My gym personally taught us when you are choking while standing to keep moving and pulling the person around so you dont stand still long enough to be thrown. And after class I have done the standing ude garami as part of a takedown then sub and it worked amazingly.
Felt so very bad for the paralyzed guy. A cruel fate.
I am Judoka
This submission is difficult to catch not going full speed. Unlike many other submissions that can have a much slower/deliberate and controlled application
I've had my shoulder momentarily separated by wakigatame (technically, aikido's version that also adds in the wrist lock) in fairly slow, fairly compliant practice. When it happened, my partner (20+ years experience) also immediately noticed (her eyes got big, my eyes got big!), let off the pressure and my shoulder and fortunately my shoulder went right back into place (vice being further displaced, aggravating a separation to a what could have been a very painful dislocation). This was followed up her asking, "Are you okay? Are you sure you're okay? I think we should go slower." Me: "Yes, I'm okay. But that was too close. Yes, let's slow it down even more." My shoulder had a something of a dull ache that would come and go for about a month afterwards.
That close call added to my conviction that it would be one of my go-to techniques for self-defense / protecting the defenseless.
My sensei teaches *all* judo techniques. Focus on competition alone is not Judo!
危険な技は小さな身体でも、大きな身体の相手を倒す武術の真髄でもあります。それをなくしていけば身体の大きなものが勝つただのスポーツになります。
Judo is a great sport, no doubt, but it must maintain its militaristic qualities as well. THe guy busted his own neck trying to be evasive and slick, like a BJJ practitioner instead of going all out at his opponent. Being slimy never works out in the end, terrible outcome.
Shared
Anyone know the music in the video is???
Are standing submisons allowed?
lol this is like catch wrestling almost, I feel if we tried to save japanese jujutsu and added sparring and competition it would be like catch but leverage based instead of strength based.
4:14 Legal as the lock isn't applied as a submission while they are standing. Due to the risk of injury, the refs are instructed to call 'mate' anytime the arms are wrapped for ude-garami and both are standing, so it mainly occurs in transitions when both stand up during newaza after the arms are already wrapped and uke is brought back to the mat so quickly that the ref doesn't have time to call 'mate'. A good example is Hamada Shori's 1st round match at the Tokyo Olympics.
I didn’t know, thank you
脇固め / 小手投げ は、日本の神話に出てきますね。建御雷神が肘の関節を極めて投げたとか
物語有難い
I have seen a lot of standing submission techniques in Nippon Kempo competition highlight videos but I think they are way too dangerous to practice in a sparring setting
I used to do standing strangles.
Me too
Hi do you have IG? Could you put that info on your About page?
Chadi.he
❤
Done that first standing submission once as a Deputy at a domestic, worked well since slamming a locked out elbow onto a tile floor resulted in a break and massive amounts of pain.
Submission is it when the guy has time to tap, otherwithe its just an armbreak.
Thats why I prefer 2 on 1´s, when doing bouncer and law enforcement stuff.
The difference in amount of force on the elbow to make the technique work and to make it break is pretty slim.
That’s brutal
Not "lost". I learned these at white, and yellow belt in Judo, -Waki-Gatame to learn how to train safely and with control.
柔道は試合と形で分けて、形の方で危険な技は残しておいて、必伝しないようにしないと駄目だと思う。
If the title of this video is "The lost standing submissions of Judo", Japanese title should be "柔道の失われたスタンディングサブミッション" or "柔道の失われた立ち関節技".
ありがとうございます
A lot of waki gatame.
Judo would be a lot cooler if they relaxed the rules a bit
That's how I started bjj.
4:44 standing baseball bat choke
stops stiff arms🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
8minutes.
Broken neck, yuk! So sad.
Chadi I don't think wakigatame is that dangerous. If you stay standing and don't collapse all your weight on the arm like you have shown in the video then you should be fine. In Tomiki Aikido we practice it safely. I've done wakigatame to people in randori close to a hundred times and I've never injured anyone. I've never seen someone with a broken arm from wakigatame in the Aikido tournaments I've been to. Anyway here's a video of various wakigatames in Aikido tournaments.
th-cam.com/video/SIdiXWooeas/w-d-xo.html
I've had my shoulder separated by it. However, I do see a difference in the way it's being performed in comparison to the video you linked: the way I'm familiar with (which is the one popular with Aikikai-affliated organizations in the U.S.) locks the shoulder, bars the elbow, and optionally locks the wrist; we also keep close body contact, which also differs from the Tomiki-style tournament examples where it's mostly being applied to just the forearm & wrist.
Note that I'm not criticizing the tournament method; just be aware that it doesn't take much to change this technique from reasonably safe to fairly dangerous.
Je suis très heureux d’avoir vue cette vidéo
🙇🏻♂️
holy fvck, that svcked