One of the most useful channels going. Thank you. I work mainly on live work. Mk012 with hypercardoid capsule is great in this application. Biggest challenges on hi hats are variety of cymbals out there and how they are sometimes poorly paired with snare drums. Also variety of sounds from closed to open to chick. Getting everything right IS difficult. Always talk to player to narrow these variables.
Nice work on video. On hat I work from the center out until I get the balance of ping to body. On the ride it is a matter of enjoying isolation from underneath, and working center out for balance of body. Most of my choices come from live, so bleed and control are typically more important than seeking the perfect studio separation sound. The second an overhead is introduced you'll likely have to play with phase reversing, yep. I think this is what Glyn Johns was trying to get away from. (I believe he did!) The key is to experiment, do not be afraid, do not allow your mind to seize-up. Every situation is different! (Which is why there are so many opinions). Again, thank-you for the video.
Really good info in this one. I've never given much consideration to hi-hat mic placement, but there's a huge difference in the examples you showed with both the hi-hat and ride. I used to use small diaphragm condensers on hi-hat like everyone else, then I found an SM7B actually sounds really great. I generally position it halfway between the bell and the edge of the cymbal pointing straight down at the cymbal; I find that it's a good useable sound right off the bat.
Haha yes! The SM7B is one of the few mics I like I hihat. I really like the sound the N22 gave too. I almost always get bad results with hihat mics because it's just a white wash of sound and distortion like stuff. Liked this sound a lot.
I actually just started playing with using a mono overhead and 2 sm57s for ride and hi hat mics. I find it works well if you only have one nice condenser mic. I use it mostly when recording metal.
Good vid... love your channel, always interesting. I find that I need to include the overheads in that phase relationship with the the snare and hats/ride. Overheads first, equidistant from snare. Check snare tone and polarity Then I bring the hh /rd into the equation, checking polarity by the method you use. More often than not they end up equidistant as a pair from the snare also. The fine tuning of the phase relationship between ohs and cymbals is achieved with panning around close cymbal mics inside overhead stereo image. The snare always remains center and “in phase” with both ohs and cymbals. 😁
I just subscribed. Although I'm not a drummer, I have a small kit for my jam room so the drummers don't have to haul their shit every time. Your channel is well presented and inventive, and hopefully, I can learn to make some good recordings of our jams. thanks. BTW, my neighbours always know when it's me on the kit. One day they will pool for a hitman.
I have never used a ribbon mic on the ride or hats. I was thinking the SPL would too great for ribbons in this setup. However, this video shows me I need to get a couple of ribbons and experiment. Thanks for sharing 👍😎
Your channel is superb! Thanks for showing us all these comparisons and hopefully saving us time when in the studio :) Wonder if there's any chance to get a video about how the height of overhead mics affects the overhead sound? Cheerios, -Ron
yeah I could do a video on that. I cover a lot of that in my Overheads Made Easy course. I will see if I can film some unique material for TH-cam on that.
I love the way the nulled out snare sounded like a really distant room mic (because it the mic was getting no direct sound from the snare and only room reflections) I wonder if this technique could reduce the need for a stereo room mic setup. If you ballanced the hihat and ride mics and compressed them a little would it yeild the fatness or just be a horrible pumping mess..
Love this vid. Lots of food for thought. Never used a ribbon on hats before. Currently I use a Sennheiser e604, but I saw someone use a Shure SM7 and that seems like it could be cool.
Wow 604. Never tried that. Maybe I should too. I love the SM7b on hats. Any darker mic that will balance out the highs so it doesn’t sound like white noise.
Creative Sound Lab It’s not my first choice; more of a what-I-have-available thing. What I do like about it is what you’re talking about: not too bright and it blends well with the overheads. Serendipity.
I love a ribbon on the ride, but hadn't really considered using one on the hats. For that purpose, I generally place a SDC directly above the bell, but point it back towards the far edge, away from the snare.
Yeah that’s about what I do too when using a cardioid. The ribbon on the hats just gives you a null that’s one the side of the mic instead of out the back which is nice to have.
Hey! Thank you for all the effort you put into your videos. It really helps to those of us that try to learn intricate details online, and you make it so easy for us :) Quick question; I’ve seen you use Warm Audio outboard gear in your previous videos. What is your general opinion on WA compressors and preamps and how do WA-76 and WA-2A compare to the Klark Teknik (?) 1176 and LA-2A clones? Will you recommend other inexpensive stuff like Golden Age Project etc?
He used as Compressor in one Video the Warm Audio Manufaktur Creme and said: „This Compressor in particular has very distinctive tone on every knob to it.“ (Like how it changes the sound with every knob. So I think he likes that Compressor.
Nice! I haven't gotten myself a ribbon mic yet and only recently have I mic'ed up hihat and a ride. I needed to mic them up for I decided to use a mono overhead and panning hihat and ride really is good in mixing a hard rock song. I use dark sounding SDC's for them and ride is mic'ed from under the ride...
Not that I know of but it was developed in France. So French music? Ha well pry stuff in the 50s and 60s over there. I try to guess about this stuff but I’d have to look it up. I’d say spaced pair is the most common but ortf gets used I’m sure.
@@creativesoundlab Thanks. I just really liked the sound of the ORTF the most and it would work best for me. I actually just helped a guy record a band live and he sorta used that technique. So got to ask him about that and got to here it.
I quite never got to use individual cymbal mics, since I have a decently big drum kit and only 14 channels on my audio interface. I have 2 OH and 1 room.
Yeah, I might look into getting little summing boxes for mics. AVLifesaver (I think) is a company that makes little boxes. Sum tom channels that are far apart in pitch so that during editing you have some space. Then you can free up a channel or two for other things, or a stereo room if needed. For hihat or ride, it's really not always needed unless the ride is thin or the hihat is super important.
Crazy I just experimented with a ribbon mic on my hat, then saw this video a couple weeks later. I thought I was on an island alone because I really like the sound I get. I sent my tracks to an engineer and he asked what I used. When I told him it’s a ribbon mic he said, “is that what they’re doing now?” I said I don’t know. but he said it sounded great Haha!
I have never, not once, used a spot mic on a cymbal. There's already so much in the OH's and I end up needing to gate the snare mic just to keep the VOLUME under control.
I had this problem for a while, and then I discovered I was actually just hitting the cymbals too darn hard! I controlled my technique a bit more (took me a while) and don't really have this problem any more. I also moved the cymbals up a bit and the hats out a bit so there was a bit less spill in the drum mics, really works if you can adjust your playing for this (again, took me a while!) Now I use a spot mic on the hats just to give a bit of definition, brought up very slightly in the mix, and also to pinpoint the hats' stereo image in the OH's. Ryan, great video - I'll be applying some of this in my next recording!
That's a good point, and that's why (Point #3) the bleed can be so harmful to the snare drum. The ride mic is usually not going to abide by the 3 to 1 rule because it's not THAT close to the ride...so it's following almost like a 2 to 1. Therefore the bleed would be harmful and the null of a figure 8 or ribbon is super helpful.
Skilled drummers who do not take care of their drums are not good drummers. I had a less skilled but consistent hitting drummer with a well kept kit re-track songs on an album. Well played drums that are poorly kept do not sound good. They don’t stick to tape.
What a clever guy you are.
I wish more people me including had this level of determination and motivation in sticking to what they once loved.
Thanks Andy! Yeah, I figured a lot of this stuff out when I filmed my courses. Mic position can be everything.
I love this channel. I learn something new about how microphones, drum kits and other instruments work everytime I watch a new video
Thanks Benjamin!
Most informative video I've found on how to mic individual cymbals/hats. I'm really digging the 45 degree angle far off the edge that you did!
Thanks great video phase reversal makes all the difference in how the mikes work to gather as one
One of the most useful channels going. Thank you. I work mainly on live work. Mk012 with hypercardoid capsule is great in this application. Biggest challenges on hi hats are variety of cymbals out there and how they are sometimes poorly paired with snare drums. Also variety of sounds from closed to open to chick. Getting everything right IS difficult. Always talk to player to narrow these variables.
Yeah getting the drummer to raise it up would save a lot of trouble for sure. Thanks for the kind comment and glad to hear your feedback!
You are so amazing. I have ribbons sitting around never even tried them close micing cymbals. Gonna be a game changer.
Thanks man! Yeah try them out!
Nice work on video. On hat I work from the center out until I get the balance of ping to body. On the ride it is a matter of enjoying isolation from underneath, and working center out for balance of body. Most of my choices come from live, so bleed and control are typically more important than seeking the perfect studio separation sound. The second an overhead is introduced you'll likely have to play with phase reversing, yep. I think this is what Glyn Johns was trying to get away from. (I believe he did!) The key is to experiment, do not be afraid, do not allow your mind to seize-up. Every situation is different! (Which is why there are so many opinions). Again, thank-you for the video.
Great insight!
Just in time for my next drum tracking. Thanks.
Wow what a great presentation! Thanks a ton! Also great that you did the variations in real time, helped a lot.
Man your channel is sick! Been watching your vids for a while now and they're great!
Thanks Folly!
Really good info in this one. I've never given much consideration to hi-hat mic placement, but there's a huge difference in the examples you showed with both the hi-hat and ride. I used to use small diaphragm condensers on hi-hat like everyone else, then I found an SM7B actually sounds really great. I generally position it halfway between the bell and the edge of the cymbal pointing straight down at the cymbal; I find that it's a good useable sound right off the bat.
Haha yes! The SM7B is one of the few mics I like I hihat. I really like the sound the N22 gave too. I almost always get bad results with hihat mics because it's just a white wash of sound and distortion like stuff. Liked this sound a lot.
I actually just started playing with using a mono overhead and 2 sm57s for ride and hi hat mics. I find it works well if you only have one nice condenser mic. I use it mostly when recording metal.
Good vid... love your channel, always interesting.
I find that I need to include the overheads in that phase relationship with the the snare and hats/ride. Overheads first, equidistant from snare.
Check snare tone and polarity
Then I bring the hh /rd into the equation, checking polarity by the method you use. More often than not they end up equidistant as a pair from the snare also.
The fine tuning of the phase relationship between ohs and cymbals is achieved with panning around close cymbal mics inside overhead stereo image.
The snare always remains center and “in phase” with both ohs and cymbals.
😁
Very interesting that the hihat and ride mics are also equidistant to the snare. Very cool.
I just subscribed. Although I'm not a drummer, I have a small kit for my jam room so the drummers don't have to haul their shit every time. Your channel is well presented and inventive, and hopefully, I can learn to make some good recordings of our jams. thanks. BTW, my neighbours always know when it's me on the kit. One day they will pool for a hitman.
I have never used a ribbon mic on the ride or hats. I was thinking the SPL would too great for ribbons in this setup. However, this video shows me I need to get a couple of ribbons and experiment. Thanks for sharing 👍😎
Yeah, I think that a guitar amp at a couple feet out is much louder than hats. It'll take it.
you GOTTA get the snare right. can't argue with that. def going to go move my ride mic to cut out some of the brightness.
thanks!
Great video! Thank you so much
Your channel is superb! Thanks for showing us all these comparisons and hopefully saving us time when in the studio :) Wonder if there's any chance to get a video about how the height of overhead mics affects the overhead sound? Cheerios, -Ron
yeah I could do a video on that. I cover a lot of that in my Overheads Made Easy course. I will see if I can film some unique material for TH-cam on that.
Thanks for the video. I tend to use a sm57 or a sdc on my high hat.
I miss recording drums. I always got lower levels during mic check because the drummer would always play louder during tracking. Natural
Yeah, as a novice drummer and producer myself, I know that when you get into the songs things sound a lot different
I love the way the nulled out snare sounded like a really distant room mic (because it the mic was getting no direct sound from the snare and only room reflections) I wonder if this technique could reduce the need for a stereo room mic setup. If you ballanced the hihat and ride mics and compressed them a little would it yeild the fatness or just be a horrible pumping mess..
Yes! You get it! Right on man!
Love this vid. Lots of food for thought. Never used a ribbon on hats before. Currently I use a Sennheiser e604, but I saw someone use a Shure SM7 and that seems like it could be cool.
Wow 604. Never tried that. Maybe I should too. I love the SM7b on hats. Any darker mic that will balance out the highs so it doesn’t sound like white noise.
Creative Sound Lab It’s not my first choice; more of a what-I-have-available thing. What I do like about it is what you’re talking about: not too bright and it blends well with the overheads. Serendipity.
I love a ribbon on the ride, but hadn't really considered using one on the hats. For that purpose, I generally place a SDC directly above the bell, but point it back towards the far edge, away from the snare.
Yeah that’s about what I do too when using a cardioid. The ribbon on the hats just gives you a null that’s one the side of the mic instead of out the back which is nice to have.
Hey! Thank you for all the effort you put into your videos. It really helps to those of us that try to learn intricate details online, and you make it so easy for us :)
Quick question; I’ve seen you use Warm Audio outboard gear in your previous videos. What is your general opinion on WA compressors and preamps and how do WA-76 and WA-2A compare to the Klark Teknik (?) 1176 and LA-2A clones? Will you recommend other inexpensive stuff like Golden Age Project etc?
He used as Compressor in one Video the Warm Audio Manufaktur Creme and said: „This Compressor in particular has very distinctive tone on every knob to it.“ (Like how it changes the sound with every knob.
So I think he likes that Compressor.
Nice! I haven't gotten myself a ribbon mic yet and only recently have I mic'ed up hihat and a ride. I needed to mic them up for I decided to use a mono overhead and panning hihat and ride really is good in mixing a hard rock song. I use dark sounding SDC's for them and ride is mic'ed from under the ride...
Yeah that's a good option if you are working with a mono overhead. Also stereo room mics can work well too in that situation.
dude, your videos rule!
Thanks Frank. I really appreciate your comment.
Does the ribbon mic handle snare volume, that would really null out leakage from hi hat and toms.
Yeah I think it can. AEA has pics of it in front of a kick drum. Haven’t tried it yet though but great on toms
You’re awesome bro
Thanks Luis!
Are there any producers or albums that you know of that use the ORTF technique?
Not that I know of but it was developed in France. So French music? Ha well pry stuff in the 50s and 60s over there. I try to guess about this stuff but I’d have to look it up. I’d say spaced pair is the most common but ortf gets used I’m sure.
@@creativesoundlab Thanks. I just really liked the sound of the ORTF the most and it would work best for me. I actually just helped a guy record a band live and he sorta used that technique. So got to ask him about that and got to here it.
I quite never got to use individual cymbal mics, since I have a decently big drum kit and only 14 channels on my audio interface. I have 2 OH and 1 room.
Yeah, I might look into getting little summing boxes for mics. AVLifesaver (I think) is a company that makes little boxes. Sum tom channels that are far apart in pitch so that during editing you have some space. Then you can free up a channel or two for other things, or a stereo room if needed. For hihat or ride, it's really not always needed unless the ride is thin or the hihat is super important.
@@creativesoundlab wow it could be super hard to separate 2 toms recorded on the same track, especially on technical stuff...
Crazy I just experimented with a ribbon mic on my hat, then saw this video a couple weeks later. I thought I was on an island alone because I really like the sound I get. I sent my tracks to an engineer and he asked what I used. When I told him it’s a ribbon mic he said, “is that what they’re doing now?” I said I don’t know. but he said it sounded great Haha!
Great minds think alike!
I have never, not once, used a spot mic on a cymbal. There's already so much in the OH's and I end up needing to gate the snare mic just to keep the VOLUME under control.
Yeah I don't do it often, but sometimes it can be really helpful to have the option.
I had this problem for a while, and then I discovered I was actually just hitting the cymbals too darn hard! I controlled my technique a bit more (took me a while) and don't really have this problem any more. I also moved the cymbals up a bit and the hats out a bit so there was a bit less spill in the drum mics, really works if you can adjust your playing for this (again, took me a while!) Now I use a spot mic on the hats just to give a bit of definition, brought up very slightly in the mix, and also to pinpoint the hats' stereo image in the OH's. Ryan, great video - I'll be applying some of this in my next recording!
Nice, cool hearing how you problem solved!
I feel this is a trick that could be very cool or very stressful lol.
Yeah try it out and if it works then cool. No stress.
Do you think the 3:1 ratio could be used with this method, and have you ever used that with much luck?
That's a good point, and that's why (Point #3) the bleed can be so harmful to the snare drum. The ride mic is usually not going to abide by the 3 to 1 rule because it's not THAT close to the ride...so it's following almost like a 2 to 1. Therefore the bleed would be harmful and the null of a figure 8 or ribbon is super helpful.
Huh, just noticed we use the same sticks. I mean, I'm not a drummer and probably never will be, but I do try......
I use a few different types. Vic Firth: AS5A, AS5B, SD4 and the Peter Erskin Ride Stick. This video was the AS5B I think.
Hi i wanna work whit u sent a e-mail but got
i no response...
Skilled drummers who do not take care of their drums are not good drummers. I had a less skilled but consistent hitting drummer with a well kept kit re-track songs on an album. Well played drums that are poorly kept do not sound good. They don’t stick to tape.
I highly recommend that you replace the ride and hihat at the first place, they sound horrible!
They are new beats. Supraphonic of hihats. Not great I agree, but a standard