Great Video. I agreed with everything you said about glues. Spot on, and well presented! I am a Contractor, and was a shipwright for many years. I did a lot of woodwork and veneering on the yachts I built, and I have used epoxy, formaldehyde glue, wood glue and contact cement for veneer. Contact cement was great because we could do a 12 foot sheet of rosewood right in place on the boat, but you weren't kidding about it not being a good option for veneer. Several of our warranty work projects had failed veneer. It was always in an area that was in the sun near a window. the veneer blistered had curled up. The dash wash done with a vacuum and epoxy with woven fiberglass on the underside to keep the dash from warping, since it being in full sun all day everyday in places like the tropics, and we never had any failures with epoxy.
Absolutely the BEST Glue information I have ever seen or read about. Once you understand how glues work, it is 10x easier to select the correct glue and drastically increase you odds of success. I will always be thankful for you putting this information together.
Quite a few high end furniture makers I’m aware of do use pva glue in veneering but maybe it’s better for some situations than others. But definitely used and quite successfully. That being said the info here is very helpful and important esp if a piece has a risk of heat or moisture. Thanks for the great channel. Just getting started in the world of veneering.
Very well presented and useful information. It was exactly what I needed. I'm flattening some complex grain warped pieces which can't be replaced. I need the really stiff urea-urethane versuion.
I wasn’t ready for such an exhaustive explanation. Very clear, either the dos and don’t. I’d recommend playing at x1.25 speed if you can follow, as the speaker speaks clearly and slowly.
D'oh! I just vereer'd some panels with TB III (longer open time). I wish I knew about Urea glue. Oh wait @13:40 Whew! I was using a woodbacked veneer so I guess I'm in the clear. Great information.
What a great vid with all the tests. I love wood, and my favorite, living on a boat is PU glue (in Europe we have the Dutch company Bison as top glue brand). Thinking about to build a wooden rowing boat (single skulling Skiff) with glueing 4x veneers to get a 3 mm thickness hull wall via Diagonal strip planking method. Still have to think about if I take paper backed veneer to have some more stability during the curving over a hull form. Racing rowing boats have extreme curved hulls. - Tks for uploading the vid. Appreciate your efforts a lot.
you can use a common PVA type glue or a two part urea resin glue, depending on the veneer. For a simple plain sliced straight grain veneer the PVA glue is fine. For something fancy like a crotch or burl veneer I would use the urea resin glue. Epoxy or polyurethane would work in this second scenario as well.
Looking forward to using our new 5x10 fliptop table. The one thing I'm curious about is the ideal glue for laying up full 5x10 sheets of laminate (phenolic back) on particleboard. Will Unibond One have enough open time to roll this out, even in a hot southern shop?
Unibond One will give you roughly 10-15 minutes of open work time, considering your climate you will be on the 10 minute side. As long as you work quickly, you should have enough time to lay up 5x10 sheets.
Thank you for the detailed info in the video! I have a question: I experimented with some oak veneer, with no vacuum press, and I found out that PVA glue tends to work very well but after a couple of days, the veneer develops some dark spots of blueish black colour. Should I use a bleed - through blocker? If yes, does a thin shellac coat work as a blocker?
Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue is no longer available. I found a similar glue but only available in 10lb buckets or more. As the presenter says it’s not a good idea to keep this powdered glue around for too long. Any advice on where to buy smaller amounts would be appreciated.
as a refinisher, i gladly like the adhesives that are softer and thusly easier to reflatten veneer. the adhesives you suggest are a one and done with little to get under and repair the substrate. what are the solutions to resoften you adhesives to reglue your buckles . if you are applying those hard glues to core the backer then veneer, then there is a bubble , how do you settle it. im asking to finishers about where their art will be in 30 or 50 years who fixes it or can it be recovered. thanks again great info.
My woodworkers got glue stained on the veneer where it joined two lge pieces on bench. After staining it showed up big time. Probs is veneer is very thin. Any ideas how to get it to dissappear?
I've used a catalyst glue that I mixed from powder and Titebond 3 when wood veneering in a vaccum bag. The Titebond 3 worked the best. The catalyst didn't adhere as well as the Titebond 3 and the catalyst glue had to stay under vaccum longer. I will only use Titebond 3 from now on for porous wood surfaces.
The problem is that Titebond 3 cures to a notoriously soft glue line. Titebond 2 and 3 both cure to a less rigid glue line than regular Titebond. You need a harder glue line than Titebond 2 or 3 will provide. The way to get a hard glue line with a PVA is to use Titebond 50 or other high resin content hard curing industrial PVA's made by Fuller and others. I have some face lams that I glued up with Titebond 50 in the early 1980's. Their glue lines are still as flush as the day they were machined. Glue color doesn't matter. Some of the hardest curing PVA's are white. No yellow or brown colorant, which is what they add to create Titebond.
Oh man, thankful I found this...I'm about to try my hands at gluing 5mm thick wood to mdf. It's thicker than actual veneer, but since I was planning to do full 4'x8' panels, I'm thinking I may want to consider the Unibond 800, unless you think it's unnecessary. I am a novice when it comes to woodworking and always looking for tips and other considerations. Definitely appreciate this detailed rundown.
I would recommend going with the Unibond 800 for two reasons. With a 4x8 panel you will need the extra open time to spread the glue and get it in the bag. Also this glue will have more "power" to stop expansion and contraction of your thicker 5mm wood
A great informative video,,, what about hide glue rigidity and penetration of veneers ,, I'll attach a birds eye maple to a guitar and want to stain it with water based dyes. What is your recommendation. Thanks in advance and keep up the good work.
hide glue is fairly rigid but it is moisture sensitive. It definitely can bleed through depending on your application. Usually good scraping and sanding will remove the bleed through and allow for uniform stain. Do a sample test to be sure.
Like I said, I don't use contact cement for any veneer work unless it's plastic laminate backed. The problem with paper backed is it's still flexible enough to bubble under contact cement or be somewhat wavy. When the veneer is laminate backed these issues do not arise due to the rigidity of the backing material and using contact cement works fine, but not with paper backed veneers. Sometimes using contact cement will come out reasonably OK but it's a bit of a crap shoot. I often say, I sell more vacuum presses due to contact cement failure than any other single reason. Your taking your chances with this type of glue.
That is very informative, and I am ordering some Unibond 800 from your website today. I have two questions: 1. when to use the bleed blocker, I am using a lot of walnut burl and olive/ash burl - would I need a blocker for these? 2. do you put little bit of Unibond 800 into the seems before putting the veneer down? I do this with Titebond - otherwise I get visible lines on the finish. How do you deal with that with Unibond 800?
1. The bleed-through blocker is often used with burls, crotches, and open-grain veneers. 2. We do not generally glue the seams. For additional information on seaming veneer, please see our video on veneer tape.
If you have means to apply uniform clamping pressure to the entire veneer surface you can use a common PVA glue like Titebond. if you cannot do this then your only option is contact cement, which, depending on the veneer may or may not work.
I would recommend either epoxy or polyurethane glue. I would not recommend a PVC cement. Make sure you rough up the surface of the plastic with a course sandpaper, like 80 grit
So if hardness of the glue equals brittle, don't i have to worry about the glue cracking during normal expansion and contraction due to temp? Would not a more flexible glue be more stable?
Great info. But, what if you *want* some flexibility? ie. glueing a burled walnut veneer to solid wood. You expect the solid base to move with seasons and I would think that a rock solid glue would cause that to fail?
it somewhat depends on the overall size of the piece your veneering, larger the piece, more the movement. The more important issue is that the veneer's grain direction follows that of the solid wood substrate. A burl veneer with the grain going in multiple directions is more likely to cause fizzuring on top of the solid wood, than the issue of the rigid glue.
Great overview of the differences in glues and why each one is different. What glue do you recommend for shop-sawn veneers 3/32" thick for a large table top?
Generally I would use the same 6 question I ask for commercially sliced veneer for shop sawn veneer as well. Since your panel is a table top, which would be a horizontal surface then I would step up to one of the chemical reaction glues. My choice, of course, would be the urea resin glue.
There is some confusion about material properties here. For instance, hardness and rigidity are two different things - one does not necessarily correlate to the other. I know that doesn't seem intuitive, but it's true. Some engineering terms that would be helpful to research would be material hardness, brittleness, and elasticity. I think the property of the area glue that is most important here is its lack of elasticity, or its high modulus of elasticity (or high Young's modulus to use a different term for the same thing).
Great stuff, I am about to make some interior doors with engineered veneer vacuum pressed with heat. I plan to use a popular glue here called fevicol SH, It is synthesized by heating formaldehyde and urea together. Do you think this will be ideal for my purpose
I am not familiar with this glue. From what I can see it appears to be a type of regular PVA(white glue). I dont think it is a form of urea formaldehyde glue as this kind of glue does not come in one part that is not mixed with either water of a separate catalyst. I cant give you a good recommendation if I have not worked with or tested the glue in question.
What glue would you use for laminating gothic arches or beams for a greenhouse? What about the inherit dangers of using the urea resin powder both in mixing and sanding?
Excellent excellent tutorial. I'm a very ambitious woodworker and just took a job building 10 doors for a medical center. I'll be veneering walnut veneer over solid plywood core doors. Pretty much convinced the urea glue would be the best... So, in my 78-ish degree F. shop with high Florida humidity do you have a ballpark open work time for the urea glue? I'll be doing 7' by 36" doors, obviously each side applied and cured separately. Also I'm somewhat concerned with bleed through. I'll use the minimizer additive, but how easy does the bleedthrough clean up after curing and what problems am I going to have with staining and do you have a stain type or brand recommendation? Lotta questions, I know so thank you so much in advance! Loved your video!
I would probably leave it under pressure for about 6 hrs and then dont try to trim anything until the next day. Bleed through wont happen on a backed veneer only raw unbacked wood.
I would like to hear your comment on two questions that I did not hear addressed in the video; (1) is there any health concern about exposure to the formaldehyde or other chemical components of the urea based glue and (2) are any of the glues discussed especially hard on tooling and cutters when working the wood after gluing? In other words, if you know you are going to be doing a certain amount of cutting and shaping of the project after gluing, should that influence my glue choice? Thanks very much
Unibond 800 is an ultra low formaldehyde glue, with that said there is a small amount of exposure when using this type of glue. A respirator is always a good idea and decent ventilation. Its using large quantities that can become an issue. Most woodworkers I am speaking to are using small quantities in general where serious health concerns are minimal as long as good ventilation and lung protection is practiced. epoxies and urea resin glues can be hard on tooling. I suggest carbide blades and bits for dealing with these two glues.
Thanks for your informative and clear video. I was wondering about formaldehyde especially as veneering can be over large areas. Whilst you can mitigate inhalation at the time of application, there must be offgassing over time, or is the low formaldehyde so low it doesn't register?
@@jonathanwebb9862 Different urea formaldehyde resin glues have varying amounts of formaldehyde so I can only speak to Unibond 800's content. Unibond 800 contains only .4% formaldehyde which is considered an ultra low formaldehyde glue. When catalyzed 99% of the .4% formaldehyde is locked up in the chemical reaction which means the off gassing is negligible. With that said the very small amount that does off gas is generally gone in about a week.
That was very informative. Perhaps you could offer your opinion on my situation. I'm repairing a kitchen table thats approx 4' x 7'. I'm getting a piece of Richelieu walnut veneer (.025) and attaching it to a mdf board. I'm in Arizona with Temps of 90°-100°. Which glue would you suggest?
I am currently taking my red oak wood veneer and gluing it to my wood red oak panel in the kichen we had bonded 2 pieces together with glue and wood filler to make this panel 8 ft length piece beside the fridge what glue would u use to attach the veneer to this panel..thank you
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc the panel is 24 inches width and 8ft long it runs between the fridge and the cabinet all the way to the ceiling..I have confirmed it is mdf we have bonded 2 pieces to make it this length I am just wondering we have purchased wood veneer 24 x 99 inches in a roll with wood backing which glue would you recommend..? Thank you kindly f9r getting back to me
@@aceofspade8795 A regular PVA glue will work fine. You could consider our PVA glue specifically designed for veneering. Be aware, the seam between the two pieces can telegraph through the veneer over time. To play it safe I would crossband with another sub veneer to protect this issue.
Thank you for an excellent lesson on glues. I'll watch it again, making better notes. Maybe you can recommend a site that would show me how to ensure a good bond on a table and executive horizontal desktops. The smaller of the two surfaces is 2.5' x 5'. The "veneering" demonstrations I've found have engaged vacuum bags or clamps, but the examples have been only about 1'x2'. Suggestions?
Glad you enjoyed the video. I am not aware of any videos on ensuring a good bond. If what you've seen has been useful but only for a 1'x2' project it should be no different for your larger project.
You should make the distinction between interior and exterior applications. For exterior you definitely want a flexible glue so it can contract and expand with temperature.
Logically you would think that to be the case, but most exterior glues are quite rigid, like epoxy and resorcinol. Exterior glues are thermosetting, mix part A with part B, making them very hard. Interior glues, in general, are the softer ones, which is why you get “cold creep” with interior glues, but not exterior ones.
I saw a video or a man using Titebond glue to attach a paper backed veneer. He applied glue to both surfaces (in this case an interior door) then let them dry, like you would for contact cement. He then used an iron to heat and reactivate the glue and press it down. He seemed happy with the results. Any thoughts on this method? No press or clamps required.
I am familiar with this technique and not much of a fan of it. Two things. Its not the way this type of glue is intended to be used and the bond is definitely not as good as when proper clamping is applied. Second, a significant amount of stress is put on the veneer by the kind of heat an iron will put on it. This can weaken the bond between the paper and the veneer as well as the localized heat can cause the veneer seams to sometimes open up. Yes, I understand when you don't have a press this method allows veneer to be applied, that doesn't mean it's a good method. If it was me I would relegate this technique to edge gluing veneers when its difficult to use clamps. Large surfaces is asking for trouble.
@@abeannis I am not sure where you received that information, but PVA glues in general can be used for veneering to hardwood. There are reasons why you might want to avoid PVA glues for veneering, regardless of the substrate, but that is a much larger topic.
Only while curing is the temperature important. Storing temp doesn't matter but the shelf life will be better if the liquid part is kept cold, like refrigerated.
without some kind of a press, especially on curved work, a caul is going to be difficult to get enough pressure using a regular wood glue. I'm not a fan of it, but contact cement may be your only option.
@@roofermarc1 using a PVA glue with an iron is another option, again not so great for a number of reason but somewhat better than contact cement. Any white or yellow glue will work.
Well if I use white or yellow glue I'm back to clamping the project properly every sq inch that's why I mentioned the heat lock glue from Joe @veneer supplies. I didn't buy my veneer from him and don't want to take up his time. Thanks.
It dawned on me after watching and listening to you that I could use white or yellow glue and heat with an iron and not have to clamp the project? I already bought that heat lock glue from Joe though.
Contact cement is an adhesive not really a glue. It doesn't really get absorbed but rather adheres to a surface and I have never seen it not fail over time. The larger the piece of veneer the more likely it is to fail.
You talked about the value of a long open-work time, but then you said you designed your urea glue to set faster. Somewhat confusing. Without any mention of actual working times, it's hard to compare.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc Thank you for a prompt response! I am aware that they are usable for repairs, but what could stop a random diy-er in using it for larger area veneering, as it ticks all tbe properties boxes?
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc namely, my first veneering project (an 80-90''s dining table) went awfully wrong, as you described in the video, while using contact cement glue, and I actually repaired ALL of it with using humble superglue (in large quantities), and another coat of lacquer. Therefore I wonder could I use that glue at first place in some future projects?
Great, great knowledgeable video, thanks for every bit of info… but the wall behind you is frankly depressing. Could you pour in colors, shapes and personal memorabilia?
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc Man! So sorry, I didn’t mean to come up that rude! It’s just that I’m 43; so basically I’m way more into content than aesthetics, but I was also raised by the likes of French MTV, cartoons and gaming systems, so my expectations are at medium, medium-rare, when it comes up to a YT decor. In other words, I don’t think that your set reflects the extent of your knowledge. In my opinion, anyone below 30 will pass on your vids within seconds, and that’s a shame. So, sorry for not giving you the key to my comment. And thanks again for a convincing exposé.
@@Jeedehem I appreciate the honest feedback and will take it into consideration. No promises though, likely more "depressing" walls for at least the next couple of videos.
Excluding surfaces expected to get wet, hot hide glue is still your best all around veneer glue. No vacuum press, no clamps, just a veneer hammer (a simple squeegee) If you screw-up, just wet it, remove it and try again. Be sure to buy the heater element and the granulated glue.
Without a doubt hide glue is a great veneer glue. It's been used for a long time before modern glues became popular. The fact that it is reversible has its benefits, especially in antique restoration work. There are a few reasons why it has fallen out of favor and why I only gave it a mention in the video. First, it's a fussy glue to work with and takes an extra skill level to master well. Second, you don't have the open work time that you do with other glues, making it somewhat limited. Better for smaller panels, and like I said, great for antique restoration work.
@VacuumPressingSystemsInc I've seen veneers applied to curved, vertical surfaces while standing on a ladder using hot hide glue. The little heater element was perched on the ladder paint platform. It was about as complicated as hanging wallpaper. I don't know any other glue that would have worked. Veneers that were misaligned were simply wetted down, pealed off, and reapplied. Today, hot hide glue is notoriously overlooked.
You did nothing but really confused me I have put hundreds of feet of veneer please rewrite all this so we can better understand our was this intentional to purposely confuse us???????
Big help more information than the previous ten videos I watched. Thanks
Great Video. I agreed with everything you said about glues. Spot on, and well presented!
I am a Contractor, and was a shipwright for many years. I did a lot of woodwork and veneering on the yachts I built, and I have used epoxy, formaldehyde glue, wood glue and contact cement for veneer. Contact cement was great because we could do a 12 foot sheet of rosewood right in place on the boat, but you weren't kidding about it not being a good option for veneer. Several of our warranty work projects had failed veneer. It was always in an area that was in the sun near a window. the veneer blistered had curled up. The dash wash done with a vacuum and epoxy with woven fiberglass on the underside to keep the dash from warping, since it being in full sun all day everyday in places like the tropics, and we never had any failures with epoxy.
Absolutely the BEST Glue information I have ever seen or read about. Once you understand how glues work, it is 10x easier to select the correct glue and drastically increase you odds of success. I will always be thankful for you putting this information together.
Couldn't agree more! You're welcome!
I wish I found this video before wasting 150 bucks of maple veneer using PVA. Lesson learned! Thank you for this video. You did an excellent job!
Ahh, the joy of woodworking...happy to hear you enjoyed the video though!
Quite a few high end furniture makers I’m aware of do use pva glue in veneering but maybe it’s better for some situations than others. But definitely used and quite successfully. That being said the info here is very helpful and important esp if a piece has a risk of heat or moisture. Thanks for the great channel. Just getting started in the world of veneering.
PVA glues definitely have their uses in the world of veneering. It's all about knowing what glue to use for the application.
Fantastic information! Thank you for taking the time to clearly explain the differences.
Very well presented and useful information. It was exactly what I needed. I'm flattening some complex grain warped pieces which can't be replaced. I need the really stiff urea-urethane versuion.
I wasn’t ready for such an exhaustive explanation. Very clear, either the dos and don’t. I’d recommend playing at x1.25 speed if you can follow, as the speaker speaks clearly and slowly.
This is great info, the visual demonstrations drove it home for me. Thank you.
Halfway thru the video and I’ve already learned more than searching 100 websites
D'oh! I just vereer'd some panels with TB III (longer open time). I wish I knew about Urea glue. Oh wait @13:40 Whew! I was using a woodbacked veneer so I guess I'm in the clear. Great information.
What a great vid with all the tests. I love wood, and my favorite, living on a boat is PU glue (in Europe we have the Dutch company Bison as top glue brand). Thinking about to build a wooden rowing boat (single skulling Skiff) with glueing 4x veneers to get a 3 mm thickness hull wall via Diagonal strip planking method. Still have to think about if I take paper backed veneer to have some more stability during the curving over a hull form. Racing rowing boats have extreme curved hulls. - Tks for uploading the vid. Appreciate your efforts a lot.
Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. This explains to me some mistakes and unsuccessful adhesions I made with veneer
Glad it was helpful!
Such a great video this shout be on page one of every veneering Manuel
Friggin' Master Class! Thanks for the education.
You bet!
Great video! Thanks, Darryl!
What a great and informative video!
Outstanding presentation. Thank you.
Great info! What glue would you use for making 2 ply veneer for a curved panel?
you can use a common PVA type glue or a two part urea resin glue, depending on the veneer. For a simple plain sliced straight grain veneer the PVA glue is fine. For something fancy like a crotch or burl veneer I would use the urea resin glue. Epoxy or polyurethane would work in this second scenario as well.
Fantastic video, thank you!
Looking forward to using our new 5x10 fliptop table. The one thing I'm curious about is the ideal glue for laying up full 5x10 sheets of laminate (phenolic back) on particleboard. Will Unibond One have enough open time to roll this out, even in a hot southern shop?
Unibond One will give you roughly 10-15 minutes of open work time, considering your climate you will be on the 10 minute side. As long as you work quickly, you should have enough time to lay up 5x10 sheets.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc Cool thanks for the info! The video was exceptionally helpful.
Thank you for the detailed info in the video!
I have a question: I experimented with some oak veneer, with no vacuum press, and I found out that PVA glue tends to work very well but after a couple of days, the veneer develops some dark spots of blueish black colour. Should I use a bleed - through blocker? If yes, does a thin shellac coat work as a blocker?
Such great information! So happy to be using Vacu Press Systems!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Just what I wanted to know!!!
You're welcome. Glad to hear you got the information you were looking for!
Thank you. Great video, your examples and explanations are really useful and much appreciated
You're very welcome!
Fantastic video
Excellent Knowledge sharing, thank you!
My pleasure!
Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue is no longer available. I found a similar glue but only available in 10lb buckets or more. As the presenter says it’s not a good idea to keep this powdered glue around for too long. Any advice on where to buy smaller amounts would be appreciated.
We are unsure where to buy small quantities of the powdered resin glue.
I've seen lots of minor veneer repairs with super glue. Seeps well into tight spots; can be injected with tiny applicators.
Yes, super glue in a needle is a great spot repair solution.
as a refinisher, i gladly like the adhesives that are softer and thusly easier to reflatten veneer. the adhesives you suggest are a one and done with little to get under and repair the substrate. what are the solutions to resoften you adhesives to reglue your buckles . if you are applying those hard glues to core the backer then veneer, then there is a bubble , how do you settle it. im asking to finishers about where their art will be in 30 or 50 years who fixes it or can it be recovered. thanks again great info.
We recommend a hypodermic needle and super glue for fixing a bubble.
Thanks a lot, great comparison. :)
Very inspiring. Thank you sir
My woodworkers got glue stained on the veneer where it joined two lge pieces on bench. After staining it showed up big time. Probs is veneer is very thin. Any ideas how to get it to dissappear?
Thanks for making this video. I've been looking for this since seeing table legs made with thin strips and bent.
I've used a catalyst glue that I mixed from powder and Titebond 3 when wood veneering in a vaccum bag. The Titebond 3 worked the best. The catalyst didn't adhere as well as the Titebond 3 and the catalyst glue had to stay under vaccum longer. I will only use Titebond 3 from now on for porous wood surfaces.
The problem is that Titebond 3 cures to a notoriously soft glue line. Titebond 2 and 3 both cure to a less rigid glue line than regular Titebond.
You need a harder glue line than Titebond 2 or 3 will provide.
The way to get a hard glue line with a PVA is to use Titebond 50 or other high resin content hard curing industrial PVA's made by Fuller and others.
I have some face lams that I glued up with Titebond 50 in the early 1980's. Their glue lines are still as flush as the day they were machined.
Glue color doesn't matter. Some of the hardest curing PVA's are white. No yellow or brown colorant, which is what they add to create Titebond.
Oh man, thankful I found this...I'm about to try my hands at gluing 5mm thick wood to mdf. It's thicker than actual veneer, but since I was planning to do full 4'x8' panels, I'm thinking I may want to consider the Unibond 800, unless you think it's unnecessary. I am a novice when it comes to woodworking and always looking for tips and other considerations. Definitely appreciate this detailed rundown.
I would recommend going with the Unibond 800 for two reasons. With a 4x8 panel you will need the extra open time to spread the glue and get it in the bag. Also this glue will have more "power" to stop expansion and contraction of your thicker 5mm wood
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc Thank you!
Thanks this was exactly what I was going to ask with my large panel wood backed veneer project!
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc is the glue available in Canada and if so where would I be able to purchase it? Thank you!
@@vortex162 Veneer Systems Inc is a supplier of Unibond 800 in Canada.
Well presented
A great informative video,,, what about hide glue rigidity and penetration of veneers ,, I'll attach a birds eye maple to a guitar and want to stain it with water based dyes.
What is your recommendation.
Thanks in advance and keep up the good work.
hide glue is fairly rigid but it is moisture sensitive. It definitely can bleed through depending on your application. Usually good scraping and sanding will remove the bleed through and allow for uniform stain. Do a sample test to be sure.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc thanks alot
Thanks for the excellent video, just wondering if contact cement is any good on paper backed veneers
Like I said, I don't use contact cement for any veneer work unless it's plastic laminate backed. The problem with paper backed is it's still flexible enough to bubble under contact cement or be somewhat wavy. When the veneer is laminate backed these issues do not arise due to the rigidity of the backing material and using contact cement works fine, but not with paper backed veneers. Sometimes using contact cement will come out reasonably OK but it's a bit of a crap shoot. I often say, I sell more vacuum presses due to contact cement failure than any other single reason. Your taking your chances with this type of glue.
Thank you so much for this informative video!
That is very informative, and I am ordering some Unibond 800 from your website today.
I have two questions:
1. when to use the bleed blocker, I am using a lot of walnut burl and olive/ash burl - would I need a blocker for these?
2. do you put little bit of Unibond 800 into the seems before putting the veneer down? I do this with Titebond - otherwise I get visible lines on the finish. How do you deal with that with Unibond 800?
1. The bleed-through blocker is often used with burls, crotches, and open-grain veneers.
2. We do not generally glue the seams. For additional information on seaming veneer, please see our video on veneer tape.
What would be a proper glue for veneering without a vacuum press? Because UnivondOne is not available in Mexico.
If you have means to apply uniform clamping pressure to the entire veneer surface you can use a common PVA glue like Titebond. if you cannot do this then your only option is contact cement, which, depending on the veneer may or may not work.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc Thank you very much... This was a very clear answer
Interesting and informative
Glad you think so!
Thank you so much, I learn something new and excellent video keep up with the good work 😍!!
You are welcome. Very happy to hear you learned something new from it!
Is it possible to veneer a guitar with the neck still attached (set neck)?
Yes, though it is not something we have experience with.
Hi, I am trying to glue a veneer to a plastic surface, some people recommended PVC or polythurane, what do you think is the best in this case, thanks
or if you have any suggestion to how glue veneer to plastic, thanks a lot
I would recommend either epoxy or polyurethane glue. I would not recommend a PVC cement. Make sure you rough up the surface of the plastic with a course sandpaper, like 80 grit
So if hardness of the glue equals brittle, don't i have to worry about the glue cracking during normal expansion and contraction due to temp? Would not a more flexible glue be more stable?
the point of a rigid glue is to STOP expansion and contraction, that's why you would be gluing veneer not thicker solid wood.
Great info. But, what if you *want* some flexibility? ie. glueing a burled walnut veneer to solid wood. You expect the solid base to move with seasons and I would think that a rock solid glue would cause that to fail?
it somewhat depends on the overall size of the piece your veneering, larger the piece, more the movement. The more important issue is that the veneer's grain direction follows that of the solid wood substrate. A burl veneer with the grain going in multiple directions is more likely to cause fizzuring on top of the solid wood, than the issue of the rigid glue.
Great overview of the differences in glues and why each one is different. What glue do you recommend for shop-sawn veneers 3/32" thick for a large table top?
Generally I would use the same 6 question I ask for commercially sliced veneer for shop sawn veneer as well. Since your panel is a table top, which would be a horizontal surface then I would step up to one of the chemical reaction glues. My choice, of course, would be the urea resin glue.
I would use the urea resin type glue to help resist the expansion/contraction of your thicker veneer, and the fact that it will be a table top
Thank you
It,s very teaching lesson proffesionaly
There is some confusion about material properties here. For instance, hardness and rigidity are two different things - one does not necessarily correlate to the other. I know that doesn't seem intuitive, but it's true. Some engineering terms that would be helpful to research would be material hardness, brittleness, and elasticity. I think the property of the area glue that is most important here is its lack of elasticity, or its high modulus of elasticity (or high Young's modulus to use a different term for the same thing).
Thank you for the feedback.
Great stuff, I am about to make some interior doors with engineered veneer vacuum pressed with heat. I plan to use a popular glue here called fevicol SH, It is synthesized by heating formaldehyde and urea together.
Do you think this will be ideal for my purpose
I am not familiar with this glue. From what I can see it appears to be a type of regular PVA(white glue). I dont think it is a form of urea formaldehyde glue as this kind of glue does not come in one part that is not mixed with either water of a separate catalyst. I cant give you a good recommendation if I have not worked with or tested the glue in question.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc Thanks a lot, my thoughts exactly
Great video thankyou!
Isn't phenol resin used here instead of urea formaldehyde ? I think UF has transparent color
Unibond 800 is a urea formaldehyde resin. Phenolic resins are generally used with plastics.
What glue would you use for laminating gothic arches or beams for a greenhouse? What about the inherit dangers of using the urea resin powder both in mixing and sanding?
I would use epoxy. The arches may not get direct water but year after year of high moisture is probably best with epoxy
Excellent excellent tutorial.
I'm a very ambitious woodworker and just took a job building 10 doors for a medical center. I'll be veneering walnut veneer over solid plywood core doors. Pretty much convinced the urea glue would be the best...
So, in my 78-ish degree F. shop with high Florida humidity do you have a ballpark open work time for the urea glue? I'll be doing 7' by 36" doors, obviously each side applied and cured separately.
Also I'm somewhat concerned with bleed through. I'll use the minimizer additive, but how easy does the bleedthrough clean up after curing and what problems am I going to have with staining and do you have a stain type or brand recommendation?
Lotta questions, I know so thank you so much in advance!
Loved your video!
I would probably leave it under pressure for about 6 hrs and then dont try to trim anything until the next day. Bleed through wont happen on a backed veneer only raw unbacked wood.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc Thank you. I'm going to need a bunch of stuff. I'll call you in the next couple weeks.
@@davearonow65 You're welcome. We look forward to speaking with you.
where can i buy unibond 1 in Australia? thanks
There are no suppliers of Unibond One outside of North America.
I would like to hear your comment on two questions that I did not hear addressed in the video;
(1) is there any health concern about exposure to the formaldehyde or other chemical components of the urea based glue and
(2) are any of the glues discussed especially hard on tooling and cutters when working the wood after gluing? In other words, if you know you are going to be doing a certain amount of cutting and shaping of the project after gluing, should that influence my glue choice? Thanks very much
Unibond 800 is an ultra low formaldehyde glue, with that said there is a small amount of exposure when using this type of glue. A respirator is always a good idea and decent ventilation. Its using large quantities that can become an issue. Most woodworkers I am speaking to are using small quantities in general where serious health concerns are minimal as long as good ventilation and lung protection is practiced.
epoxies and urea resin glues can be hard on tooling. I suggest carbide blades and bits for dealing with these two glues.
Thanks for your informative and clear video. I was wondering about formaldehyde especially as veneering can be over large areas. Whilst you can mitigate inhalation at the time of application, there must be offgassing over time, or is the low formaldehyde so low it doesn't register?
@@jonathanwebb9862 Different urea formaldehyde resin glues have varying amounts of formaldehyde so I can only speak to Unibond 800's content. Unibond 800 contains only .4% formaldehyde which is considered an ultra low formaldehyde glue. When catalyzed 99% of the .4% formaldehyde is locked up in the chemical reaction which means the off gassing is negligible. With that said the very small amount that does off gas is generally gone in about a week.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc Many thanks for taking the time to explain that.
That was very informative. Perhaps you could offer your opinion on my situation. I'm repairing a kitchen table thats approx 4' x 7'. I'm getting a piece of Richelieu walnut veneer (.025) and attaching it to a mdf board. I'm in Arizona with Temps of 90°-100°. Which glue would you suggest?
I would use the urea resin glue for this.
I am currently taking my red oak wood veneer and gluing it to my wood red oak panel in the kichen we had bonded 2 pieces together with glue and wood filler to make this panel 8 ft length piece beside the fridge what glue would u use to attach the veneer to this panel..thank you
I need more information. Is the veneer your gluing raw or backed, and how wide is this panel.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc the panel is 24 inches width and 8ft long it runs between the fridge and the cabinet all the way to the ceiling..I have confirmed it is mdf we have bonded 2 pieces to make it this length I am just wondering we have purchased wood veneer 24 x 99 inches in a roll with wood backing which glue would you recommend..? Thank you kindly f9r getting back to me
@@aceofspade8795 A regular PVA glue will work fine. You could consider our PVA glue specifically designed for veneering. Be aware, the seam between the two pieces can telegraph through the veneer over time. To play it safe I would crossband with another sub veneer to protect this issue.
Thank you for the valuable information I really appreciate your response
Thank you for an excellent lesson on glues. I'll watch it again, making better notes. Maybe you can recommend a site that would show me how to ensure a good bond on a table and executive horizontal desktops. The smaller of the two surfaces is 2.5' x 5'. The "veneering" demonstrations I've found have engaged vacuum bags or clamps, but the examples have been only about 1'x2'. Suggestions?
Glad you enjoyed the video. I am not aware of any videos on ensuring a good bond. If what you've seen has been useful but only for a 1'x2' project it should be no different for your larger project.
hi, need your advise. what is the best glue for making a quality skateboard. PVA glue or Epoxy Resin?
A waterproof PVA is acceptable but an epoxy resin would be better.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc thank you for the reply. What’s the best PSI for cold pressing and how long should be?
super valuable video. thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
You should make the distinction between interior and exterior applications. For exterior you definitely want a flexible glue so it can contract and expand with temperature.
Logically you would think that to be the case, but most exterior glues are quite rigid, like epoxy and resorcinol. Exterior glues are thermosetting, mix part A with part B, making them very hard. Interior glues, in general, are the softer ones, which is why you get “cold creep” with interior glues, but not exterior ones.
I saw a video or a man using Titebond glue to attach a paper backed veneer. He applied glue to both surfaces (in this case an interior door) then let them dry, like you would for contact cement. He then used an iron to heat and reactivate the glue and press it down. He seemed happy with the results. Any thoughts on this method? No press or clamps required.
I am familiar with this technique and not much of a fan of it. Two things. Its not the way this type of glue is intended to be used and the bond is definitely not as good as when proper clamping is applied. Second, a significant amount of stress is put on the veneer by the kind of heat an iron will put on it. This can weaken the bond between the paper and the veneer as well as the localized heat can cause the veneer seams to sometimes open up. Yes, I understand when you don't have a press this method allows veneer to be applied, that doesn't mean it's a good method. If it was me I would relegate this technique to edge gluing veneers when its difficult to use clamps. Large surfaces is asking for trouble.
Can resin glue be used to bond veneer to hardwood? I know pva can't
Urea resin and PVA glues can be used to bond veneer to hardwood.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc do you mean your specific pva glue? I've always heard that pva should only be used to bond veneer to PLYWOOD never hardwood
@@abeannis I am not sure where you received that information, but PVA glues in general can be used for veneering to hardwood. There are reasons why you might want to avoid PVA glues for veneering, regardless of the substrate, but that is a much larger topic.
Minimum temperature only while curing? While stored? After cured? Need clearer explanation.
Only while curing is the temperature important. Storing temp doesn't matter but the shelf life will be better if the liquid part is kept cold, like refrigerated.
What can I use on a curved speaker box? I'm using paperbacked with no press? And I can't use a cowl of some sort!
without some kind of a press, especially on curved work, a caul is going to be difficult to get enough pressure using a regular wood glue. I'm not a fan of it, but contact cement may be your only option.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc what about using some heat lock glue? With a clothes iron
@@roofermarc1 using a PVA glue with an iron is another option, again not so great for a number of reason but somewhat better than contact cement. Any white or yellow glue will work.
Well if I use white or yellow glue I'm back to clamping the project properly every sq inch that's why I mentioned the heat lock glue from Joe @veneer supplies. I didn't buy my veneer from him and don't want to take up his time. Thanks.
It dawned on me after watching and listening to you that I could use white or yellow glue and heat with an iron and not have to clamp the project? I already bought that heat lock glue from Joe though.
What a lesson!
I'll some of you some time -he says at a little after 13:00 that If you are using a wood backed veneer you can just use a PVA glue.
That contact cement looks promising for constrained layer damping
Contact cement is an adhesive not really a glue. It doesn't really get absorbed but rather adheres to a surface and I have never seen it not fail over time. The larger the piece of veneer the more likely it is to fail.
Agreed. That's been our observation as well.
We need this in Europe.
Thanks
You talked about the value of a long open-work time, but then you said you designed your urea glue to set faster. Somewhat confusing. Without any mention of actual working times, it's hard to compare.
What glue and process would you use to glue a sheet of veneer to a spot not easily accessible for clamps?
apparently they no longer make the Weldwood plastic resin powder.
How about CA glue?
CA glues are great for spot repairs, but are generally not used for veneering and laminating.
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc
Thank you for a prompt response! I am aware that they are usable for repairs, but what could stop a random diy-er in using it for larger area veneering, as it ticks all tbe properties boxes?
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc namely, my first veneering project (an 80-90''s dining table) went awfully wrong, as you described in the video, while using contact cement glue, and I actually repaired ALL of it with using humble superglue (in large quantities), and another coat of lacquer. Therefore I wonder could I use that glue at first place in some future projects?
Great, great knowledgeable video, thanks for every bit of info… but the wall behind you is frankly depressing. Could you pour in colors, shapes and personal memorabilia?
Depressing...I'm crushed!! What about the red in the clamp handles and the orange handle of the scraper. Thats some color?!
@@VacuumPressingSystemsInc Man! So sorry, I didn’t mean to come up that rude! It’s just that I’m 43; so basically I’m way more into content than aesthetics, but I was also raised by the likes of French MTV, cartoons and gaming systems, so my expectations are at medium, medium-rare, when it comes up to a YT decor.
In other words, I don’t think that your set reflects the extent of your knowledge. In my opinion, anyone below 30 will pass on your vids within seconds, and that’s a shame.
So, sorry for not giving you the key to my comment. And thanks again for a convincing exposé.
@@Jeedehem I appreciate the honest feedback and will take it into consideration. No promises though, likely more "depressing" walls for at least the next couple of videos.
Excluding surfaces expected to get wet, hot hide glue is still your best all around veneer glue. No vacuum press, no clamps, just a veneer hammer (a simple squeegee)
If you screw-up, just wet it, remove it and try again. Be sure to buy the heater element and the granulated glue.
Without a doubt hide glue is a great veneer glue. It's been used for a long time before modern glues became popular. The fact that it is reversible has its benefits, especially in antique restoration work. There are a few reasons why it has fallen out of favor and why I only gave it a mention in the video. First, it's a fussy glue to work with and takes an extra skill level to master well. Second, you don't have the open work time that you do with other glues, making it somewhat limited. Better for smaller panels, and like I said, great for antique restoration work.
@VacuumPressingSystemsInc I've seen veneers applied to curved, vertical surfaces while standing on a ladder using hot hide glue. The little heater element was perched on the ladder paint platform.
It was about as complicated as hanging wallpaper.
I don't know any other glue that would have worked. Veneers that were misaligned were simply wetted down, pealed off, and reapplied.
Today, hot hide glue is notoriously overlooked.
You did nothing but really confused me I have put hundreds of feet of veneer please rewrite all this so we can better understand our was this intentional to purposely confuse us???????
Sorry to hear that. Most of our viewers have found this to be a very informative video.
No thanks.