I'm still very much a newbie when it comes to poetry, but I have a very clear memory from years back when I was studying literature at uni, of how poetry invoked such a feeling of wonder in me. We were studying some early 20th century Swedish poets, and there was this poem they told us to read called "sonatform. denaturerad prosa." by Gunnar Ekelöf. This poem reads like nonsense. There's made up words, there's not a lot of line breaks, the verses make no sense, but still, there was just something about that poem that I couldn't put into words but that stirred something in me. Our professor then went on to tell us about how Gunnar Ekelöf loved classical music, and how he in this poem had tried to make words into music and music into words, and he then went on to read the poem out loud to us, pointing out where the repetitions were, where we could find the crescendo, where the tempo sped up, and I was just sitting there, awed by what we can actually do with words.
For me what makes a good poem is one that hits me hard and deeply with simple words - not screaming rage and bitter feelings, but mutual understanding and acceptance of those feelings.
I love the Sylvia Plath quote: "Poems are moments' monuments." What makes great poetry is difficult to define. It captures an emotion, in a way that resonates, and feels fresh and interesting. It's also about rhythm, precise use of language. And the best poems reveal further layers of meaning, each time we revisit them. Awesome video - thank you. 😃💝
What makes a poem a good poem? It's when words become your best chum To take away your pain or boredom Doesn't matter if it's long or short Full of imagery or just plain quotes As long as it speaks to your soul That's what's most important above all.
The thing is that describtion is too subjective for a proper definition of a genre. A person that lost their father might be reminded and feel something when you write “I am sad, my father left, and now im alone with mother.” But someone that haven’t felt that feeling of despair and abandonment of a father leaving you, would simply read it, agree its sad, and move on… At that point the text is undefinable cause one say its poetry because it made them feel sad, while another call it a statement… We need a way to find tangible elements, devices and textures of language that makes you go “That text about a plank of wood could almost give me splinters by just reading it.” No matter if you have tried to have a splinter or only heard of them before. A text that makes you think of a subject in new ways, see the world in a different light. A momentary escape from plato’s cave into a new reality. To me that is what poetry is. Not the simple conversations about shadows cast on a cave wall you have been chained to look at your entire life, no! poems should break those chains, cast you into the fires of real experience outside the cave. Atleast IMO Garbage like Rupi Kaur fail to do so despite describing the shadows on the wall everyone around her see, and those around her agree with, she fail to describe the 3D world that cast it. She barely describe the feeling of the chains she has on, just that there are chains. XD
@@warlorddk2070 Brilliant explanation. Sick of poetry being tarnished by “subjectively good” crap. It is only subjective to a degree. Poetry, as with any art, can be objectively bad.
Really interesting thoughts. There was the whole debate about bloggers vs journalistic critics and which was better. I like people to review books with a personal angle so the bloggers and now TH-camrs win, for me on that, plus generally they are doing it because they simply love books. The main thing is every opinion (good and bad) is going to be different but that's what's exciting about books. I think. That probably made no sense at all. My mum says anyone who reads lots can judge if a book is good or bad... For them. Ace vid. Has made me think.
So much of the discussion around the 4:00 mark reminds me of the ways that particular social groups -- whether it's video gaming, comic book reading, etc. -- work to exclude women particularly by claiming that perfect knowledge is needed as a pre-requisite to criticism, opinion, or even appreciation. It's weird to demand quantifiable knowledge from art in general. Which isn't to say that we can't and shouldn't value experts, but I think you're completely right: we can't invalidate an opinion on art because it's not perfectly well informed to someone else's standard.
My favourite slam poem is "Private Parts" by Sarah Kay. It's so beautiful and talks about giving different parts of yourself to a person and what the act of doing so means.
This was a really interesting and informative watch. Tbh poetry isn't really my cup of tea, but it was fascinating to hear you (and everyone else) talk around the question of what makes a good poem.
Wow. THIS is the TH-cam channel that I have always needed in my life. What a great time to stumble upon this, I know what I’m going to be binging during lock down/quarantine! Thank you, and love from a young, South African aspiring poet 💕
For me, a good poem or poet is one I didn't see coming. It hits me in ways I don't understand. I see new points of view or learn new things through the choice of words. The poet Hollie McNish has taught me so much about how to use language and how poetry can be a form of talking, just another way to communicate. Where as Black Roses by Simon Armitage, hit me places I didn't know I could feel. Taking a story of a murder I missed on the news, to a girl I now carry round with me. Good poetry is something that never leaves you once read.
I've only recently starting getting into poetry, I read A Body Made of You by Melissa Lee Houghton (based on your recommendation, Jen) and it blew my mind. I can't find the words to explain why, but it really struck me, I had to put it down and let it just sit a few times. The pacing and the rhythm of the pieces were spot on for each muse, it was just really intense and well worth the read for anyone interested in abstract, weird, poetry... stuff :)
Love this video. On a similar thread, I'm a theatre blogger that often reviews theatre across the UK and I'm not professionally trained or hardly ever paid for my reviews (just free tickets). I feel that my opinion as a blogger is often not regarded as equal to a paid reviewer which is often a little frustrating. There was a bit of controversy a few months back when producer Danielle Tarento stated that bloggers often lacked the intellect to write theatre reviews which is similar to what you're talking about here. I appreciate your defence of bloggers etc as it's important to create communities and allow anyone the right to opinion. Blogs, independent writers and reviewer have the ability to offer an alternative view and that's wonderful.
+Edwina McEachran I think it comes down to what the writer in question wants to achieve: who they want to reach/what they want to say. I've read many eloquent blog reviews that have interesting things to say and I've also read many that haven't been proof read and have inaccurate things in, such as 'breaking down the third wall', instead of the fourth. It's all relative. :)
Jen this was so brilliant. Thank you for your thoughts and time - found this really interesting and insightful. I started watching performance poetry on youtube a couple of years back, then seeking out live performances, and trying out writing, and now I'm reading more poetry and really enjoying doing so. My favourite collections have been Physical by Andrew McMillan and Hold Your Own by Kate Tempest. If you have any particular recommendations that'd be great but discovering lots via your channel.
Thank you for this. It was really helpful and the review you read about everything past the first draft being for the reader is something I hadn't really thought about before but which makes a lot of sense and I'm glad I'm thinking about it now. :) I've been devouring all your poetry videos and hope to see many more in the future as well!
I think the hardest thing for me in my poetry is simultaneously being unique and getting involved in a poetry type of community. Also, the fear of failure is overwhelming. Do you have any videos on similar things?
Very powerful vlog. Thank you for sharing. One of my fav poets is the Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwich. I love his poem The Dice Player which’s a reflection of his life and lost country at once. Here are my favorite lines: And the Foxes disappeared from there by coincidence or running away from the Army. If the army vehicle didn’t see the fires of the village baking the night. My other fav poet/poem is Alan Ginsberg’s Howl. I saw the best talents of my generation destroyed by madness. Angelic bombs. I am a poet from Aleppo and the best part of these two poems is that I feel in one way or another that they’re speaking about the war in Aleppo. This is to speak for the universality of poetry.
My gateway to poetry kind of comes in two halves. The first being the wonderful Savannah Brown here on TH-cam who does spoken word poetry. Graffiti by Sav was the first poetry collection I ever bought. The second was my English teacher this year, who really brought poetry alive for me. Since reading Graffiti I have been jumping around a lot. I've read the wasteland by TS Eliot that I adore. I read some of Poe's poems that are less to my taste, I have more collections on my shelf that I am endeavouring to read. The likes of Blake and Whitman are all there. However the best poetry I have ever read is Sylvia Plath. I am reading Ariel at the moment and each poem blows me away in a different way each time. They are raw, they deal with thoughts I have dealt with, they show a snapshot of her life. They are honestly my favourite poems. The style is also very similar to how I write, which has given me huge amounts of confidence because it proves that I am writing poetry! (Continued...)
What makes Plath good, for me, is the connection I have with her poems. That is the same reason I love Savannah. However I love Eliot for his seeming nonsense and the deeper meaning. Elliot's words are what draws me to his poetry. All three of these are poets I love and all three are different and I would say that all three write good poetry. This time last year I hated poetry and now I adore it. In a few weeks time I'm even going to a local poetry open mic, hoping to perform some of my own work too. I am loving all the poetry videos and cannot wait for more! Xx
ive been thinking about this for a long long time for me a good poem of poet is something that grabs your hand and shows you what you are reading rather than ram it down your throat im a big fan of poetry that verges on storytelling/none fiction yeah two opposites there i dont partlicuary like spoken word poetry they try to be too real and it comes across as fake and forced.
oh good a new video by Jen, that's the first thing when I think when it hits my phone. Oh she's talking about poetry even better, and because I have a really crappy internet connection, it takes forever for video to load unless I'm in Starbucks. I do what I normally do scroll down through the comments. You pass down through Jen's books to her links and literary gold mine yahoo. So here's the thing Jen does all this heavy lifting finding this really good stuff, it would be a shame not to look at it. Poetry is some the best stuff. I would not have the crow by Ted Hughes or Max Porter's Crow and thereby been properly Godsmacked if not for Miss Jen's work. So my advice fix yourself a cup of coffee and link up. You might in enjoy yourself and learn something on the way.
I argue for a somewhat strange indicator that a poem is "good." For me, it must bring the observer to want to observe the same poem again. In a way this is calling for remembrance i suppose. The ultimate sign that a poem is amazing is that someone would take the time to memorize it. That is the key I use to determine what is worth keeping, if I do not want to memorize my own poem, the poem isn't finished or will be discarded.
I think when we think about what makes a good poem we have to accept the idea of plurality far more than we currently do. I think "judging" art is ultimately always subjective in a radical sense and this may sound strange, but I really think it is. Even though we might have shared feelings and can communicate about shared premises of what is good art for us, there is _always_ a scenario we can imagine in which maybe just even one single person in the whole world might not share the same premises that seem so obvious to us. I think what you said about looking outside yourself and reading other books is important and true, but I also think it is true for a certain kind of writing and depends on what you're writing. I think that even the most insignificant poem written by a lonely person who has never read awfully much can be considered valuable, touching, good, beautiful even though it is totally isolated and might just be for that person alone. It just depends on the perspective you're addressing it from. I know that this is a very radical position and I know I'm gonna be mocked for it, but I think ultimately, categories are what's gonna hurt us and what's gonna close up our possibilities of seeing and taking in the whole world in its richness and beauty.. We often think that the best way to devalue art that we don't like is to say "it's not even art at all". Well, a tree is not art either, but it can be beautiful. There may even be a single tree only one person can see and that might be the most important, most beautiful tree for them. Now, that does of course not mean communication is not possible (something that a lot of people say in order to discredit people who are subjectivists). Of course communication is possible because with all our subjectivity, we do have shared goals, shared thoughts and feelings. I think talking about this is important, but ultimately, it depends on the direction you wanna go in both as an artist and a reader. By whom do you wanna be heard? The first few drafts are for you, the last drafts are for your audience, but which audience? I think the last draft will always be for you. I believe in communication, but I don't believe in an art-police or ultimate judge.
I absolutely agree that views on this are subjective, which is one of the reasons why having a diverse range of voices giving their opinion and pooling thoughts is so important. I also agree that we can create art (beautiful art) for ourselves, on our own. Though I would argue that the chances of doing that without taking in other art are slim, which is why my general advice is always 'read all the things!' Not just because reading, invariably, makes us better writers but because, bar anything else, it would be a shame not to read all the wonderful things out there. I'm also a firm believer that reading changes us - not just with regard to writing, just in life. It helps us build. Poetry can be many things, one of them cathartic, so if a writer is writing for themselves and no one else then write away. My 'look outside yourself' comment is geared mostly towards those poets who ask me how they can get published, who then admit they don't read. Forgetting the 'reading makes us better writers' argument, wanting to get published with regard to poetry really means that you have to know the industry (if you're going down the traditional route, that is, which some don't and that's fine): you need to read literary magazines so that you know which house style would be most likely to accept your writing for publication, and same for publishing houses. The poetry circle is small, and relies on people supporting it and if you want people to support your work then it's polite to take a look at other people's and shout about voices you like (not because you want those writers to support you back, just because). That's not to do with creativity and 'goodness', of course, just general niceness :) x
Jen Campbell Yes, I totally agree with you. My thoughts were actually not meant as a way of arguing against you, but rather of maybe opening up a way of looking at it from a different angle. We generally love to create dichotomies between all different kinds of things, and the division between "published art" and "private art" is one of them, though I think there can emerge wonderful new things if we generally are more open to letting these dichotomies dissolve themselves - or form themselves in places where they fit, for that matter, but just getting away from these essentialist point of views that set one single standard at the top of everything else. I have found for example that there are people who are really talented and can already do things on their own without ever reading or looking at much else (though of course they do look at other stuff, just less than others), while there are other people who really have to take in a lot in order for them to produce something that's good. I think we really have to look at it from different angles. But yes, I totally agree with you, reading is of course an enriching experience and I myself am a literature student, so of course my remark was not meant as an "affront to reading". :) Though I have to say I am suprised at how much some people actually do read. I myself have alway read too little I think. Though I also really think sometimes reading thoroughly is more important than reading a lot. I am a very slow, one could even say bad reader when it comes to speed and have to invest a lot of time to actually finish all the reading for my classes, but I am good at picking apart and can sort of make up for my lack of quick reading with reading thoroughly. I do write myself and indeed I always think of myself as being too much in a kind of vacuum. I've never really liked that pressure to engage with others too much since I am indeed somewhat a loner to be honest, so I guess I have to find some kind of balance. One difficulty on top of that is that I am currently studying American literature in Germany and by doing that, writing in German now almost seems alienating to me. When I end up wririting, I write in English most of the time these days, but it's difficult when you've grown up with a different language. I am starting to ramble though. Love your channel, Jen and keep up the good work, you'e so kind and encouraging, I have the feeling everyone can watch your channel and it's that kind of openness I really appreciate :)
I loved The Very Quiet Foreign Girls Poetry Group link. As a Catalan (writer?), I sometimes find myself thinking and writing in English because it feels better in that moment. But I wonder: wouldn't I express these thoughts better in my mother tongue? What does my mother tongue lack that I have to use another language? English feels natural to write down thoughts in a straightforward and simple way. As if I was forcing myself to use the least words I can. That is why I loved that link: it reminds me of how I am picking up ideas concisely. But that doesn't mean I do it right, I must be committing errors I don't notice as a foreigner. I don't read much poetry, but when I started to read English poetry, I reunited with that feeling when I write in English: every word has a purpose. I love Poe, Adrienne Rich and Sylvia Plath best. Sharon Olds I have also enjoyed. I need to catch up with your poetry playlist and get a few books from your recommendations :) Thanks for your great work!
I've spoken with writers who feel that different languages allow them to do different things, and I've taught poets not writing in their first language who, often accidentally, create strange and wonderful word combinations that wouldn't be made by someone who had been brought up with that language. Leaps and patterns that are new, refreshing, startling and exciting. I'm glad that you liked the Very Quiet Foreign Girls Poetry Group link - I think what they do is so important.
That's so interesting. I would love to know more about those writers' experience in publishing. Do they contact agents or publishers from their own country? Is it difficult to publish in a foreign language if it's not spoken in the country you live in? I have seen your How To Get Published video, will you continue the series covering writing in a foreign language or on choosing an agent? Will we meet your agent on your videos? Does he know much about the Spanish publishing market? :)
Poets don't tend to have agents, there's just not enough money in it to make it worth while for either. I have no personal experience of publishing in a foreign language (written by me), just of having my work translated into other languages, for which my agent uses scouts/foreign literary agents who speak those languages and they split the commission when a book deal is made. (This is how it works across the board - sometimes agents outsource their foreign rights, sometimes it's in house, sometimes foreign rights are dealt with by the publisher who bought the original work).
i think poetry is something that is very personal.....a poem that i liked and connected to myself may not be likable to others. so i think there is no good and no bad poetry.......i usually prefer poems of 18, 19 and 20 century and i find it hard to understand modern poem ( i don't know why). my favourite poets.... Rabindranath Tagore Emily dickinson vikram seth maya angelou walt whitman
I am reading The Leaves od Grass at the moment. It is the first collection that I picked by myself and the first lyrical one that I have read. I will have a class presentation on it. I am really enjoying it. But as english is not my first language, I am reading the translation. And I am thinking about how that must make the poems so so different. Even with novels, Harry Potter for example, once I read the original, there was no coming back. It was so much more of a "true" experience for me. So now, I am loving the Leaves of Grass. But am I really reading Whitman's work? I am reading his thoughts, but through words he did not write. And could I, at the age of 17, read the original? My english is rather good, I would hope. But poetry seems so complex and even scary. Would I understand? But then again, is there "the right way" to understand? Thoughts :) Lovely video by the way,Jen. You were the one to make me curious about trying poetry. xx
+Teresa Sloupova oh, that's a whole new video in itself, ha. It's definitely interesting - I've read all but two of Murakami's work, translated by a variety of people, and have found all have the same tone; I never find it jarring, which must mean that they are good translations (or all equally bad, ha!). If you're translating a poet, however, you play a larger creation role than in any other translation process; the language is abstract, smilies and metaphors need adjusting, can the rhythm remain the same - what about half rhymes etc? When readers and poets come together over one poem, there's a translation process going on to begin with (what did the poet mean - what is my analysis?), an actual translation is an extra level on top of that. You're reading two poets, definitely, (hopefully) seamlessly speaking on a page. Then you insert yourself as a reader into the equation, too, as a third poet. There's a massive element of trust, which I find rather beautiful.
oh yes please, would love to watch that. I do have a lot of respect for poets that translate somebody else's work into their own language. I just can't decide if I can actually claim to have read the original poet's work.
Hi. I write English poems and English isn't even my native language. I hope you get to check my poems. Poetry have many forms and styles. I hope mine doesn't scare you. 😊
Here's an interesting question, if a poetry book sells millions of copies and gets tons of great reader reviews but poetry critics or poetry experts say it's bad. Is it actually good poetry or not?
I write poems, or well as i call them, scribbles. I've written about 200 scribbles and now I am looking into turning them into a book. They're about my past, so very raw with a few trigger warnings here and there. I've started editing them and how do i know if they're good enough? 😬
I love poetry, though I read poetry mostly in Hebrew. Sorry, I can not share that with you :( I think "Dissect A Poem" is a wonderful idea. Something everybody can react and give his opinion and feelings. I thought in the first line of Margaret Atwood's poem that somebody was crying over the "smeared print and blurred lines". I think a good poem makes something "move" inside you and you have to pay attention to each word as it reveals a whole world. One word describes a lot, and you have to pay attention so you won't miss something important, so you can understand or try to understand what the poet wanted to tell us.
If you loved this video as much as I did (confession, I am the one with mad bulging eyes explaining that poetry is about a sharing of focussed attention) do get in touch at the @ForwardPrizes on Facebook or Twitter or on our website, sign up to National Poetry Day @poetrydayuk on Twitter - and consider coming along to the Forward Prizes at the Southbank centre on 20th September. It's beginning to feel like Poetry Davos...www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whatson/the-forward-prizes-for-2016-98045
Makes no sense, all poets write to be heard. As a poet teacher, I would know. I am a well achieved writer, awards, regularly published and Pushcart nominee and got sent to compete. I never once ever heard a poet say "I write poetry but not to be heard"
I don't think you watched this video. At no point did I say that poets write without wanting to be heard. In fact this whole video is about the relationship between writers and readers of their work. I, too, am a published poet and teacher.
I wrote this. "Is our perception of reality the forthright truth, or is it just an illusion of the brain? Have we been incoherently processing reality, proving that what we know is erroneous? This world will one day be forsaken, and the human race will be wiped away as if we were never present." Is this considered bad? I know it is short. It isn't near done.
@@msrainbowmoonfire1802 Woah I came back to this comment now that I got this notification, and I completely forgot that I wrote this and I'm a bit proud of myself haha. And no unfortunately the final version isn't done yet, I might start working on it again soon though.
You wnat to know which poetry pisses me off? The ones that use old allusions, no one alive remembers them; let alone could ever again be considered pop culture. And that is why 'the wasteland' is a critically acclaimed poem: I personally have no idea if is good or not because it alludes to so much old, the meaning is lost.
I do not like the delivery of slam poetry or the loud dynamism of some spoken word or those anally condescending intellectual types who deliver every poem with a wispy sanctimonious voice. I love poetry because I love words. The way words sound or play lyrically. Poetry gives me words so my mind can make notes and conjure images with them. they convey emotions, for they mean something, and are chosen precisely to do that. Its the literary craft of poems. Shouting at me makes noise. Too much noise. Theatrics are just that theater, its not poetry. I want to hear the words, not the poet. After all isn't that the gift. I take it home. It lives in my head and I recite in my voice, through my experience, in my life experiences. It can make me cry, laugh, felt understood. It can become a part of me. My voice when I have not enough words for that moment.
The problem with the "muh old white guy" argument is that it always states an imbalance, when the different numbers may be a result of mere interest. There's mostly white guy comic creators because mostly white guys want to enter the field.
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm still very much a newbie when it comes to poetry, but I have a very clear memory from years back when I was studying literature at uni, of how poetry invoked such a feeling of wonder in me. We were studying some early 20th century Swedish poets, and there was this poem they told us to read called "sonatform. denaturerad prosa." by Gunnar Ekelöf. This poem reads like nonsense. There's made up words, there's not a lot of line breaks, the verses make no sense, but still, there was just something about that poem that I couldn't put into words but that stirred something in me. Our professor then went on to tell us about how Gunnar Ekelöf loved classical music, and how he in this poem had tried to make words into music and music into words, and he then went on to read the poem out loud to us, pointing out where the repetitions were, where we could find the crescendo, where the tempo sped up, and I was just sitting there, awed by what we can actually do with words.
Thank you for this lovely comment. xx
@@jenvcampbell
th-cam.com/video/_64Gh0M0oPE/w-d-xo.html
I think you would benefit from my channel 😊
For me what makes a good poem is one that hits me hard and deeply with simple words - not screaming rage and bitter feelings, but mutual understanding and acceptance of those feelings.
Molly De Montaigne then would u like to read one of my poetry here!?
I can't imagine mere words hiting me hard... how does that work?
Wonderful thought. I hope you get to check my poetry.
@@samreplete1842 love your channel. You have an amazing voice.
I love the Sylvia Plath quote: "Poems are moments' monuments." What makes great poetry is difficult to define. It captures an emotion, in a way that resonates, and feels fresh and interesting. It's also about rhythm, precise use of language. And the best poems reveal further layers of meaning, each time we revisit them. Awesome video - thank you. 😃💝
Interesting thought.
Excellent info.
I've clocked up well over a 3000 hours writing poetry.
Writing a poem is always an adventure.
Long live the adventure.
What makes a poem a good poem?
It's when words become your best chum
To take away your pain or boredom
Doesn't matter if it's long or short
Full of imagery or just plain quotes
As long as it speaks to your soul
That's what's most important above all.
The thing is that describtion is too subjective for a proper definition of a genre. A person that lost their father might be reminded and feel something when you write “I am sad, my father left, and now im alone with mother.” But someone that haven’t felt that feeling of despair and abandonment of a father leaving you, would simply read it, agree its sad, and move on… At that point the text is undefinable cause one say its poetry because it made them feel sad, while another call it a statement… We need a way to find tangible elements, devices and textures of language that makes you go “That text about a plank of wood could almost give me splinters by just reading it.” No matter if you have tried to have a splinter or only heard of them before. A text that makes you think of a subject in new ways, see the world in a different light. A momentary escape from plato’s cave into a new reality. To me that is what poetry is. Not the simple conversations about shadows cast on a cave wall you have been chained to look at your entire life, no! poems should break those chains, cast you into the fires of real experience outside the cave. Atleast IMO Garbage like Rupi Kaur fail to do so despite describing the shadows on the wall everyone around her see, and those around her agree with, she fail to describe the 3D world that cast it. She barely describe the feeling of the chains she has on, just that there are chains. XD
@@warlorddk2070 Brilliant explanation. Sick of poetry being tarnished by “subjectively good” crap. It is only subjective to a degree. Poetry, as with any art, can be objectively bad.
Really interesting thoughts. There was the whole debate about bloggers vs journalistic critics and which was better. I like people to review books with a personal angle so the bloggers and now TH-camrs win, for me on that, plus generally they are doing it because they simply love books. The main thing is every opinion (good and bad) is going to be different but that's what's exciting about books. I think. That probably made no sense at all. My mum says anyone who reads lots can judge if a book is good or bad... For them. Ace vid. Has made me think.
So much of the discussion around the 4:00 mark reminds me of the ways that particular social groups -- whether it's video gaming, comic book reading, etc. -- work to exclude women particularly by claiming that perfect knowledge is needed as a pre-requisite to criticism, opinion, or even appreciation. It's weird to demand quantifiable knowledge from art in general. Which isn't to say that we can't and shouldn't value experts, but I think you're completely right: we can't invalidate an opinion on art because it's not perfectly well informed to someone else's standard.
My favourite slam poem is "Private Parts" by Sarah Kay. It's so beautiful and talks about giving different parts of yourself to a person and what the act of doing so means.
I do love a bit of Sarah Kay :) x
This was a really interesting and informative watch. Tbh poetry isn't really my cup of tea, but it was fascinating to hear you (and everyone else) talk around the question of what makes a good poem.
+Becki Weston if you ever want recommendations of poetry based on other (non-poetry) books that you like, let me know. I always enjoy a challenge ;)
Wow. THIS is the TH-cam channel that I have always needed in my life. What a great time to stumble upon this, I know what I’m going to be binging during lock down/quarantine! Thank you, and love from a young, South African aspiring poet 💕
Very inspiring. Thank you Jen!
For me, a good poem or poet is one I didn't see coming. It hits me in ways I don't understand. I see new points of view or learn new things through the choice of words. The poet Hollie McNish has taught me so much about how to use language and how poetry can be a form of talking, just another way to communicate. Where as Black Roses by Simon Armitage, hit me places I didn't know I could feel. Taking a story of a murder I missed on the news, to a girl I now carry round with me. Good poetry is something that never leaves you once read.
❤️
Such a brilliant, thought-provoking video. Thank you Jen. :)
You're welcome, and thanks :) xx
I've only recently starting getting into poetry, I read A Body Made of You by Melissa Lee Houghton (based on your recommendation, Jen) and it blew my mind. I can't find the words to explain why, but it really struck me, I had to put it down and let it just sit a few times. The pacing and the rhythm of the pieces were spot on for each muse, it was just really intense and well worth the read for anyone interested in abstract, weird, poetry... stuff :)
+Molly Ridley Melissa is gold dust ❤️
She's at the Forward Prizes Molly Ridley, do come hear her
Love this video. On a similar thread, I'm a theatre blogger that often reviews theatre across the UK and I'm not professionally trained or hardly ever paid for my reviews (just free tickets). I feel that my opinion as a blogger is often not regarded as equal to a paid reviewer which is often a little frustrating. There was a bit of controversy a few months back when producer Danielle Tarento stated that bloggers often lacked the intellect to write theatre reviews which is similar to what you're talking about here. I appreciate your defence of bloggers etc as it's important to create communities and allow anyone the right to opinion. Blogs, independent writers and reviewer have the ability to offer an alternative view and that's wonderful.
+Edwina McEachran I think it comes down to what the writer in question wants to achieve: who they want to reach/what they want to say. I've read many eloquent blog reviews that have interesting things to say and I've also read many that haven't been proof read and have inaccurate things in, such as 'breaking down the third wall', instead of the fourth. It's all relative. :)
Jen this was so brilliant. Thank you for your thoughts and time - found this really interesting and insightful. I started watching performance poetry on youtube a couple of years back, then seeking out live performances, and trying out writing, and now I'm reading more poetry and really enjoying doing so. My favourite collections have been Physical by Andrew McMillan and Hold Your Own by Kate Tempest. If you have any particular recommendations that'd be great but discovering lots via your channel.
+Amy Jane Smith perhaps Beautiful Girls by Melissa Lee Houghton, Pelican by Emily O'Neill and What We Buried by Caitlyn Seihl :) and thank you xxxxx
Have you heard this? Raised the hairs on the back of my neck th-cam.com/video/_pkQYLVqBms/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for this. It was really helpful and the review you read about everything past the first draft being for the reader is something I hadn't really thought about before but which makes a lot of sense and I'm glad I'm thinking about it now. :) I've been devouring all your poetry videos and hope to see many more in the future as well!
+Kaye Spivey thanks, Kaye x
I think the hardest thing for me in my poetry is simultaneously being unique and getting involved in a poetry type of community. Also, the fear of failure is overwhelming. Do you have any videos on similar things?
You might want to check out my videos on the publishing industry and my writing Q&As th-cam.com/video/OWdmiMTYWZI/w-d-xo.html x
Very powerful vlog. Thank you for sharing. One of my fav poets is the Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwich. I love his poem The Dice Player which’s a reflection of his life and lost country at once. Here are my favorite lines:
And the Foxes disappeared from there by coincidence or running away from the Army.
If the army vehicle didn’t see the fires of the village baking the night.
My other fav poet/poem is Alan Ginsberg’s Howl.
I saw the best talents of my generation destroyed by madness.
Angelic bombs.
I am a poet from Aleppo and the best part of these two poems is that I feel in one way or another that they’re speaking about the war in Aleppo. This is to speak for the universality of poetry.
I really enjoyed this video! feeling inspired :)
:) x
Truth of emotion, and growth of perception.
My gateway to poetry kind of comes in two halves. The first being the wonderful Savannah Brown here on TH-cam who does spoken word poetry. Graffiti by Sav was the first poetry collection I ever bought. The second was my English teacher this year, who really brought poetry alive for me. Since reading Graffiti I have been jumping around a lot. I've read the wasteland by TS Eliot that I adore. I read some of Poe's poems that are less to my taste, I have more collections on my shelf that I am endeavouring to read. The likes of Blake and Whitman are all there. However the best poetry I have ever read is Sylvia Plath. I am reading Ariel at the moment and each poem blows me away in a different way each time. They are raw, they deal with thoughts I have dealt with, they show a snapshot of her life. They are honestly my favourite poems. The style is also very similar to how I write, which has given me huge amounts of confidence because it proves that I am writing poetry! (Continued...)
What makes Plath good, for me, is the connection I have with her poems. That is the same reason I love Savannah. However I love Eliot for his seeming nonsense and the deeper meaning. Elliot's words are what draws me to his poetry. All three of these are poets I love and all three are different and I would say that all three write good poetry. This time last year I hated poetry and now I adore it. In a few weeks time I'm even going to a local poetry open mic, hoping to perform some of my own work too. I am loving all the poetry videos and cannot wait for more! Xx
Can you please tell me which poetry writers should I read although I have read which you mentioned because I want to enhance my skills in poetry too.
Tom Chandler TS Eliot was great. I reccomend Ezra Pound for more good modernist poetry.
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ive been thinking about this for a long long time
for me a good poem of poet is something that grabs your hand and shows you what you are reading
rather than ram it down your throat im a big fan of poetry that verges on storytelling/none fiction yeah two opposites there
i dont partlicuary like spoken word poetry they try to be too real and it comes across as fake and forced.
oh good a new video by Jen, that's the first thing when I think when it hits my phone. Oh she's talking about poetry even better, and because I have a really crappy internet connection, it takes forever for video to load unless I'm in Starbucks. I do what I normally do scroll down through the comments. You pass down through Jen's books to her links and literary gold mine yahoo. So here's the thing Jen does all this heavy lifting finding this really good stuff, it would be a shame not to look at it. Poetry is some the best stuff. I would not have the crow by Ted Hughes or Max Porter's Crow and thereby been properly Godsmacked if not for Miss Jen's work. So my advice fix yourself a cup of coffee and link up. You might in enjoy yourself and learn something on the way.
+Paul Winchell thank you, Paul x
Thanks for this, Jen!!
"For me, poems should beat. Be alive. Make language move." I couldn't agree more. xx
Wow...the last line. That's poetic.🖤
I argue for a somewhat strange indicator that a poem is "good." For me, it must bring the observer to want to observe the same poem again. In a way this is calling for remembrance i suppose. The ultimate sign that a poem is amazing is that someone would take the time to memorize it. That is the key I use to determine what is worth keeping, if I do not want to memorize my own poem, the poem isn't finished or will be discarded.
I think when we think about what makes a good poem we have to accept the idea of plurality far more than we currently do. I think "judging" art is ultimately always subjective in a radical sense and this may sound strange, but I really think it is. Even though we might have shared feelings and can communicate about shared premises of what is good art for us, there is _always_ a scenario we can imagine in which maybe just even one single person in the whole world might not share the same premises that seem so obvious to us.
I think what you said about looking outside yourself and reading other books is important and true, but I also think it is true for a certain kind of writing and depends on what you're writing. I think that even the most insignificant poem written by a lonely person who has never read awfully much can be considered valuable, touching, good, beautiful even though it is totally isolated and might just be for that person alone. It just depends on the perspective you're addressing it from.
I know that this is a very radical position and I know I'm gonna be mocked for it, but I think ultimately, categories are what's gonna hurt us and what's gonna close up our possibilities of seeing and taking in the whole world in its richness and beauty.. We often think that the best way to devalue art that we don't like is to say "it's not even art at all". Well, a tree is not art either, but it can be beautiful. There may even be a single tree only one person can see and that might be the most important, most beautiful tree for them. Now, that does of course not mean communication is not possible (something that a lot of people say in order to discredit people who are subjectivists). Of course communication is possible because with all our subjectivity, we do have shared goals, shared thoughts and feelings. I think talking about this is important, but ultimately, it depends on the direction you wanna go in both as an artist and a reader. By whom do you wanna be heard? The first few drafts are for you, the last drafts are for your audience, but which audience? I think the last draft will always be for you.
I believe in communication, but I don't believe in an art-police or ultimate judge.
I absolutely agree that views on this are subjective, which is one of the reasons why having a diverse range of voices giving their opinion and pooling thoughts is so important. I also agree that we can create art (beautiful art) for ourselves, on our own. Though I would argue that the chances of doing that without taking in other art are slim, which is why my general advice is always 'read all the things!' Not just because reading, invariably, makes us better writers but because, bar anything else, it would be a shame not to read all the wonderful things out there. I'm also a firm believer that reading changes us - not just with regard to writing, just in life. It helps us build. Poetry can be many things, one of them cathartic, so if a writer is writing for themselves and no one else then write away. My 'look outside yourself' comment is geared mostly towards those poets who ask me how they can get published, who then admit they don't read. Forgetting the 'reading makes us better writers' argument, wanting to get published with regard to poetry really means that you have to know the industry (if you're going down the traditional route, that is, which some don't and that's fine): you need to read literary magazines so that you know which house style would be most likely to accept your writing for publication, and same for publishing houses. The poetry circle is small, and relies on people supporting it and if you want people to support your work then it's polite to take a look at other people's and shout about voices you like (not because you want those writers to support you back, just because). That's not to do with creativity and 'goodness', of course, just general niceness :) x
Jen Campbell
Yes, I totally agree with you. My thoughts were actually not meant as a way of arguing against you, but rather of maybe opening up a way of looking at it from a different angle. We generally love to create dichotomies between all different kinds of things, and the division between "published art" and "private art" is one of them, though I think there can emerge wonderful new things if we generally are more open to letting these dichotomies dissolve themselves - or form themselves in places where they fit, for that matter, but just getting away from these essentialist point of views that set one single standard at the top of everything else. I have found for example that there are people who are really talented and can already do things on their own without ever reading or looking at much else (though of course they do look at other stuff, just less than others), while there are other people who really have to take in a lot in order for them to produce something that's good. I think we really have to look at it from different angles. But yes, I totally agree with you, reading is of course an enriching experience and I myself am a literature student, so of course my remark was not meant as an "affront to reading". :) Though I have to say I am suprised at how much some people actually do read. I myself have alway read too little I think. Though I also really think sometimes reading thoroughly is more important than reading a lot. I am a very slow, one could even say bad reader when it comes to speed and have to invest a lot of time to actually finish all the reading for my classes, but I am good at picking apart and can sort of make up for my lack of quick reading with reading thoroughly.
I do write myself and indeed I always think of myself as being too much in a kind of vacuum. I've never really liked that pressure to engage with others too much since I am indeed somewhat a loner to be honest, so I guess I have to find some kind of balance. One difficulty on top of that is that I am currently studying American literature in Germany and by doing that, writing in German now almost seems alienating to me. When I end up wririting, I write in English most of the time these days, but it's difficult when you've grown up with a different language. I am starting to ramble though. Love your channel, Jen and keep up the good work, you'e so kind and encouraging, I have the feeling everyone can watch your channel and it's that kind of openness I really appreciate :)
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I loved The Very Quiet Foreign Girls Poetry Group link. As a Catalan (writer?), I sometimes find myself thinking and writing in English because it feels better in that moment.
But I wonder: wouldn't I express these thoughts better in my mother tongue? What does my mother tongue lack that I have to use another language?
English feels natural to write down thoughts in a straightforward and simple way. As if I was forcing myself to use the least words I can.
That is why I loved that link: it reminds me of how I am picking up ideas concisely. But that doesn't mean I do it right, I must be committing errors I don't notice as a foreigner.
I don't read much poetry, but when I started to read English poetry, I reunited with that feeling when I write in English: every word has a purpose. I love Poe, Adrienne Rich and Sylvia Plath best. Sharon Olds I have also enjoyed. I need to catch up with your poetry playlist and get a few books from your recommendations :)
Thanks for your great work!
I've spoken with writers who feel that different languages allow them to do different things, and I've taught poets not writing in their first language who, often accidentally, create strange and wonderful word combinations that wouldn't be made by someone who had been brought up with that language. Leaps and patterns that are new, refreshing, startling and exciting. I'm glad that you liked the Very Quiet Foreign Girls Poetry Group link - I think what they do is so important.
That's so interesting. I would love to know more about those writers' experience in publishing. Do they contact agents or publishers from their own country? Is it difficult to publish in a foreign language if it's not spoken in the country you live in?
I have seen your How To Get Published video, will you continue the series covering writing in a foreign language or on choosing an agent? Will we meet your agent on your videos? Does he know much about the Spanish publishing market? :)
Poets don't tend to have agents, there's just not enough money in it to make it worth while for either. I have no personal experience of publishing in a foreign language (written by me), just of having my work translated into other languages, for which my agent uses scouts/foreign literary agents who speak those languages and they split the commission when a book deal is made. (This is how it works across the board - sometimes agents outsource their foreign rights, sometimes it's in house, sometimes foreign rights are dealt with by the publisher who bought the original work).
And, yes, Charlie and I will do a video at some point but we're both very busy with other things at the moment. :)
Thank you!
Brilliant!
i think poetry is something that is very personal.....a poem that i liked and connected to myself may not be likable to others.
so i think there is no good and no bad poetry.......i usually prefer poems of 18, 19 and 20 century and i find it hard to understand modern poem ( i don't know why).
my favourite poets....
Rabindranath Tagore
Emily dickinson
vikram seth
maya angelou
walt whitman
Love that.👏👏👏 I share the same opinion.🖤
I recognise that book over your shoulder at the left: I am Radar.
I haven't read it yet, is it good?
I am reading The Leaves od Grass at the moment. It is the first collection that I picked by myself and the first lyrical one that I have read. I will have a class presentation on it. I am really enjoying it.
But as english is not my first language, I am reading the translation. And I am thinking about how that must make the poems so so different.
Even with novels, Harry Potter for example, once I read the original, there was no coming back. It was so much more of a "true" experience for me.
So now, I am loving the Leaves of Grass. But am I really reading Whitman's work? I am reading his thoughts, but through words he did not write. And could I, at the age of 17, read the original? My english is rather good, I would hope. But poetry seems so complex and even scary. Would I understand? But then again, is there "the right way" to understand?
Thoughts :)
Lovely video by the way,Jen. You were the one to make me curious about trying poetry. xx
"I am rather good at english" she said. Just reading my own comment back and seeing all the mistakes in Present Perfect. Oh boy. *sighs*
+Teresa Sloupova oh, that's a whole new video in itself, ha. It's definitely interesting - I've read all but two of Murakami's work, translated by a variety of people, and have found all have the same tone; I never find it jarring, which must mean that they are good translations (or all equally bad, ha!). If you're translating a poet, however, you play a larger creation role than in any other translation process; the language is abstract, smilies and metaphors need adjusting, can the rhythm remain the same - what about half rhymes etc? When readers and poets come together over one poem, there's a translation process going on to begin with (what did the poet mean - what is my analysis?), an actual translation is an extra level on top of that. You're reading two poets, definitely, (hopefully) seamlessly speaking on a page. Then you insert yourself as a reader into the equation, too, as a third poet. There's a massive element of trust, which I find rather beautiful.
oh yes please, would love to watch that.
I do have a lot of respect for poets that translate somebody else's work into their own language. I just can't decide if I can actually claim to have read the original poet's work.
Hi. I write English poems and English isn't even my native language. I hope you get to check my poems. Poetry have many forms and styles. I hope mine doesn't scare you. 😊
Here's an interesting question, if a poetry book sells millions of copies and gets tons of great reader reviews but poetry critics or poetry experts say it's bad.
Is it actually good poetry or not?
@THE GIFTED POET love your spirit.
@THE GIFTED POET Hello my friend. No, that woman isn't me. 😊
@THE GIFTED POET Thanks a lot. You're too kind.
I write poems, or well as i call them, scribbles. I've written about 200 scribbles and now I am looking into turning them into a book. They're about my past, so very raw with a few trigger warnings here and there. I've started editing them and how do i know if they're good enough? 😬
Submit to journals and competitions. If you’d like editorial feedback, I provide that, too www.Jen-campbell.co.uk/editorial
did you ever read Phillip Levine what work is
Poetry emerges from and enters into the deep mind.
I love poetry, though I read poetry mostly in Hebrew. Sorry, I can not share that with you :( I think "Dissect A Poem" is a wonderful idea. Something everybody can react and give his opinion and feelings. I thought in the first line of Margaret Atwood's poem that somebody was crying over the "smeared print and blurred lines". I think a good poem makes something "move" inside you and you have to pay attention to each word as it reveals a whole world. One word describes a lot, and you have to pay attention so you won't miss something important, so you can understand or try to understand what the poet wanted to tell us.
Good point. 🖤
If you loved this video as much as I did (confession, I am the one with mad bulging eyes explaining that poetry is about a sharing of focussed attention) do get in touch at the @ForwardPrizes on Facebook or Twitter or on our website, sign up to National Poetry Day @poetrydayuk on Twitter - and consider coming along to the Forward Prizes at the Southbank centre on 20th September. It's beginning to feel like Poetry Davos...www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whatson/the-forward-prizes-for-2016-98045
^^ What she said ;) x
Makes no sense, all poets write to be heard. As a poet teacher, I would know. I am a well achieved writer, awards, regularly published and Pushcart nominee and got sent to compete. I never once ever heard a poet say "I write poetry but not to be heard"
I don't think you watched this video. At no point did I say that poets write without wanting to be heard. In fact this whole video is about the relationship between writers and readers of their work. I, too, am a published poet and teacher.
I wrote this. "Is our perception of reality the forthright truth, or is it just an illusion of the brain? Have we been incoherently processing reality, proving that what we know is erroneous? This world will one day be forsaken, and the human race will be wiped away as if we were never present." Is this considered bad? I know it is short. It isn't near done.
Is this masterpiece already completed? I would like to read.
@@msrainbowmoonfire1802 Woah I came back to this comment now that I got this notification, and I completely forgot that I wrote this and I'm a bit proud of myself haha. And no unfortunately the final version isn't done yet, I might start working on it again soon though.
@@ky6517 Please complete it. I'll be waiting.
You wnat to know which poetry pisses me off? The ones that use old allusions, no one alive remembers them; let alone could ever again be considered pop culture. And that is why 'the wasteland' is a critically acclaimed poem: I personally have no idea if is good or not because it alludes to so much old, the meaning is lost.
interesting
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I do not like the delivery of slam poetry or the loud dynamism of some spoken word or those anally condescending intellectual types who deliver every poem with a wispy sanctimonious voice. I love poetry because I love words. The way words sound or play lyrically. Poetry gives me words so my mind can make notes and conjure images with them. they convey emotions, for they mean something, and are chosen precisely to do that. Its the literary craft of poems. Shouting at me makes noise. Too much noise. Theatrics are just that theater, its not poetry. I want to hear the words, not the poet. After all isn't that the gift. I take it home. It lives in my head and I recite in my voice, through my experience, in my life experiences. It can make me cry, laugh, felt understood. It can become a part of me. My voice when I have not enough words for that moment.
8:35 to 8:42 she has 5 fingers and then only 4. Shaper shifter.
I have Ectrodactyly.
Please educate yourself m.th-cam.com/play/PLlRIaAzTjWi5onpjRQzypc_yNfpRtnPVy.html
I am not surprised, the witch.
Hi. can you critic my poems on your channel. would really need some feedbacks from another writer's POV.
The problem with the "muh old white guy" argument is that it always states an imbalance, when the different numbers may be a result of mere interest. There's mostly white guy comic creators because mostly white guys want to enter the field.
Did you read the articles in the description box?
It also tries to paint white men as the borg, who can in no way understand or sympathize with other groups of people.