Welcome to another exploration that took me on a new path as I was exploring the origins of the Erdtree and the Old Man statue. I always loved the area of Siofra river, but never really gave the ancestral spirits much attention. I always wondered who these giant moose like creatures were and when I started to connected the dots I found some incredible connections. I hope you enjoyed this video as I loved making and discovering a lot of [for me] new pieces of lore! Thanks for your support as always and I look forward to hearing your amazing theories especially about what you think the role of the ancestral spirit corpses was?
I also think that another proof that I didnt include in the video is the description of Siluria's Tree which reads: The primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself, and this spear, modeled on its crucible, is imbued with ancient holy essence. This is saying that the crucible is close in nature to life itself. If we imagine the moose in siofra river being the crucible, this statement makes a lot of sense. And the statement: this spear, modeled on its crucible. "its crucible": the antlers of the ancestral spirit..
This actually makes me think at something that I overlooked. I went by the assumption that the greater will was behind Marika’s actions. But i never linked that her removing death and going against the gw could have been the reason for its disappearance. What if by removing death and stopping the cycle Marika killed the greater will???
One fascinating place regarding spirits is the Rauh Ruins. In a lot of ways the golems, ash summons, spirit tuning, etc can be traced there. I like to believe that individuals with a particular affinity to manipulating spirits congregated there. Perhaps the most prominent individuals were the shamans and that's why there's a statue of a woman in multiple locations there. After a certain amount of time, war, genocide, rot buried the secrets.
Yes makes sense! At some point i need to make an expansion on this theory adding all we know about Rauh and spirits. Hopefully I can find something that tells us a bit more about Torrent.
Fun note: Torrent may be a young version of an Ancestral Spirit, the Spirit does a double jump/fly during it's boss fight and it uses the same sound as Torrent does during it's double jump.
Yes, absolutely!! I've been thinking about that!! As i mentioned in the video there is something in the water as well.. some connection there.. when torrent jumps looks like he is in water... and in the first scene with torrent and melina they also arrive in water and the step torrent takes looks like the grace base... watery,... so much to speculate on all of this and it will be definitely a video coming out at some point about all of this!!!
@@AmeliaAeon Makes sense! Their name is also water based, Torrent. We also know FromSoft loves attributing water to death. Couldn't be more obvious in Elden Ring! Godwin being turning into a clam-faced mermaid. Both his, and the Ancestral Spirit's arenas are filled with water. And the similarity of the Grace and Torrent's double jump does make you wonder. If it is not merely a cosmetic choice by FromSoft, then what are the lore implications? If it's spiritual in nature, and Torrent is using spiritual magic (from itself?) to double jump, does that mean the Guidance of Grace is spiritual magic from Marika's self? Sorry for the ramble, but I'm feeling it! So if we look at the state of Marika, falling apart and crumbling, that could explain why so many tarnished are losing or have lost the sight of grace! It's created by her own spirit, and she's waning! So instead of sending out hundreds of spirit threads of Guidance of Grace for all her Tarnished, she had to carefully pick only a select few that she places all her bets upon. Our hero Tarnished, and Godfrey. Thank you for your video, and inspiring more ideas.
Oh don't worry I love rambles as they really make you think!! Godwyn is definitely another piece of the puzzle... the fact that he is water related and in the roots must have a depper meaning than we are currently finding! This is a very interesting topic indeed!
YAY!!! This Was Fantastic!!! I Love The Approach To The Crucible Connections To The Ancestor Spirits & Tribes. I Have Been Tryin' To See If There Are Any Other Clues About This In The DLC. You Nailed It! Thanks Again!
Thank you!!! And if you do please come and share with me anything you find. I know there is so much more there still left to be found. Im glad you enjoyed it and thanks for stopping by 🤍
I think the ancestral followers somehow discovered the Shaman's practices of spiritual rebirth and decided to try and revive them. My theory is that the Numen were originally split into three subcultures of light, dark, and twilight; or life, death, and rebirth. When they arrived in the lands between these three subcultures all existed together, and eventually developed into the Rauh, Nox, and Numen civilizations. They used to co exist, with the shaman acting as a balance between the two larger cultures, until one if not both cultures decided to break the cycle in order to gain full control of the crucible by creating Enir Ilim. So you're very much correct when you said they are interpreting the shaman's practices wrong. They're working with 1/3 of the knowledge, if that.
Great video! Ive seen a lot of videos on the subject of ancestral spirits but this one really stands out because it not only explains their lore and underlying thematics, but is also willing speculate and fill in the missing pieces. Same can honestly be said for your other videos too, serious props and keep it up. l accually happen to agree with the theory regarding the underground trees having been sacrificed to the erdtree, and it was intresting to see how you arrived at the same theory differently than I and where you took it, especially in regards to how the sacrifice might’ve happened. I personally believe those trees always lacked branches, and the reason why is actually the main reason why I arrived at the theory in the first place: the description for the Winged Greathorn. “Distinctive horn suffused with the power of ancestral spirits. This large, wing-shaped specimen is wielded as a weapon of spirit worship. In the ancestral spirit-worshipping faith, these are considered envoys' wings, made to *reap the lives of beings which experience no sprouting* .” Trees that dont have branches by implication, *cant sprout* . As seeds/buds come from branches, following the conceptual relationship between horns and plants, you can think about the ancestral spirits relationship to their horns as a trees relationship to their branches. This is accually what made me initially think “huh maybe these trees were sacrifices for the erdtree”, because as the description implies, in ages past, a lack of sprouting marked one as a sacrifice. If this is the case, then these trees lack of “sprouting” branches would make them perfect candidates for sacrifice.
Hei thanks for stopping by Im really glad you enjoyed my videos!! And thank you for sharing your theory it's a very interesting theory! It could be that at some point these trees stopped sprouting. Another thing I was thinking about post video is that we have always associated these trees to lets say "classic trees" while it looks like they could be pine trees. As the one we see in the mountaintops are pine looking... this would explain why they have no branches in the bottom part... just something else to complicate the theories even more haha!!
There's an interesting meditation on the connection between vegetation, the Green as it were, collecting the ancestral knowledge and spirit of previous generations and distributing it via psychedelic plants and fungus in Issue #21 of Warren Ellie's underrated "Planetary" graphic novel series. It's a stand alone issue so you don't need to be familiar with the series to understand it and I recommend reading it if you are interested in going further in the subject.
So is Marika putting death in the roots of her tree an attempt to save it (godwyn’s body) or to give it ‘eternal’ energy? Is the removal of death why the omen’s horns don’t sprout? Is marika just repeating what Elden John did and this isn’t the first time the lands between have gone through this transition? (Sky taken away from an eternal city sounds like it was missing death to me, followed by an age of beasts or dark ages?) love videos that feed the lore addiction! 😅 great vid
Thank you so much for your comment and for sharing your thoughts! Right, so your connnection to the fact that horns dont sprout anymore because death was removed is amazing BUT!!!! does this then mean that marika removed death while still allied with the hornsent? this is an amazing theory!! And also the link to feeding death to the tree is really interesting!! lots to look into! I like your thinking!!
An interesting note on the “dead” trees in the underground: in Moghwyn Palace, the albinaurics seem to be making sacrifices to the trees. There are bodies with runes left at the bottom of the trees they’re circling. One even has what looks like an altar set up beneath it. Also, there are larger examples of the trees in the Consecrated Snowfield. I think maybe they are what Latenna calls “the ancient bowers” when you first go there. They seem to have been older, larger trees, and many have broken pieces (branches perhaps?) scattered around them. There are also a few stray ancestral followers near the trees, and the Nox are tied to the area somehow both by the architecture in Ordina, as well as the ghost dragonkin scattered around. Been pondering what the connections there might be. Great video!
Ah very good thinking!! I like where this is going, Ye I didn't really considered the Cons Snowfields or MP enough in this video as i was focusing to find some solid theories... definitely connections there!! And thanks for spotting and sharing this!!
Great take! I believe that the Euphoria twinblade is a key component of this discussion. It was made from a golden tree (but before the Erdtree). A deep shadowed rabbit hole.
Good spot! This is something else I'm researching.. where is gold coming from? it's clearly been added to an existing ring and used to turn a tree into the erdtree... who had the gold before and what was it's original purpose?
I just watched occam’s onions vid on the collapse of the sun realm. He states that the Sun acted like the erdtree. Maybe thats where the gold came from?
@@happyskeret5692I tend to agree, the Erdtree kind of plays the role of the sun, and gold and the sun are symbolically linked in pretty much all ancient cultures. The Golden Star that has fallen is probably an allegory for the fall of the sun realm, who's cities broke apart and literally fell from the sky onto the LB
Yessss the shaman connection between the Nox, Marika's shaman village and the ancestoral followers is super compelling especially as people who continually branch off like horns or branches
Ahaha glad I could help 😂😂 it’s such a mess the siofra river lore. The forst time i was there i was like oooohhhhh woooooow but then like wtf is this place 😂
it's funny how we no longer become "undead" and I don't think it's just a game mechanic becasue this all started with the "dream" maybe we never woke up
I wonder if the echo if Marika we hear from Melina regarding Marika's desire to investigate the depths of the Golden Order stems from the time the Erd Tree strated to run dry. Marika might not have fu!ly understood what she'd done by removing Destined Death from the Elden Ring and if she did discover it in her research, was likely looking for some quick fix to solve it rather than ad it defeat and the failure of the Golden Order by returning Destined Death to the world. Note that Melina as Marika's daughter does study the problem and come to the conclusion Destined Death needs to be returned because Melina doesn't have Marika's ego getting in the way.
Very interesting point! It definitely stand! It also makes me think.. what if then someone betrayed marika.. I'm still not sure why she ended up with the ring as the tree and the ring were clearly two spearate things at some point.. only after a time the erdtree becomes the embodiment of order... so someone maybe tricked marika and promised her powers that weren't true...
@@AmeliaAeon I honestly think it's a misunderstanding on how the universe works. Metyr and Marika both lack the wisdom to understand the necessity of death. Metyr is an eldritch being of the Void and might not experience death as we know it. She doesn't "die" when the Tarnish defeats her, she slips out of reality. Marika was a traumatized woman who having seen horrific slaughter instinctively wanted to make a world without death without understanding the wider implications. We don't know if she ever did or if her paranoia led her to think she'd been betrayed or sabotaged.
Yes, this make sense. We have to take into account each character personal story. And I also agree that they misinterpret the meaning of life and death or even the universe.
Welcome to another exploration that took me on a new path as I was exploring the origins of the Erdtree and the Old Man statue. I always loved the area of Siofra river, but never really gave the ancestral spirits much attention. I always wondered who these giant moose like creatures were and when I started to connected the dots I found some incredible connections.
I hope you enjoyed this video as I loved making and discovering a lot of [for me] new pieces of lore!
Thanks for your support as always and I look forward to hearing your amazing theories especially about what you think the role of the ancestral spirit corpses was?
I also think that another proof that I didnt include in the video is the description of Siluria's Tree which reads:
The primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself, and this spear, modeled on its crucible, is imbued with ancient holy essence.
This is saying that the crucible is close in nature to life itself. If we imagine the moose in siofra river being the crucible, this statement makes a lot of sense.
And the statement: this spear, modeled on its crucible. "its crucible": the antlers of the ancestral spirit..
Marika removed death...
No more fertilizer for tree, gw left
Genius...
This actually makes me think at something that I overlooked. I went by the assumption that the greater will was behind Marika’s actions. But i never linked that her removing death and going against the gw could have been the reason for its disappearance.
What if by removing death and stopping the cycle Marika killed the greater will???
One fascinating place regarding spirits is the Rauh Ruins. In a lot of ways the golems, ash summons, spirit tuning, etc can be traced there. I like to believe that individuals with a particular affinity to manipulating spirits congregated there. Perhaps the most prominent individuals were the shamans and that's why there's a statue of a woman in multiple locations there. After a certain amount of time, war, genocide, rot buried the secrets.
Yes makes sense! At some point i need to make an expansion on this theory adding all we know about Rauh and spirits. Hopefully I can find something that tells us a bit more about Torrent.
Fun note: Torrent may be a young version of an Ancestral Spirit, the Spirit does a double jump/fly during it's boss fight and it uses the same sound as Torrent does during it's double jump.
Never thought about it, nice comment
Yes, absolutely!! I've been thinking about that!! As i mentioned in the video there is something in the water as well.. some connection there.. when torrent jumps looks like he is in water... and in the first scene with torrent and melina they also arrive in water and the step torrent takes looks like the grace base... watery,... so much to speculate on all of this and it will be definitely a video coming out at some point about all of this!!!
@@AmeliaAeon Makes sense! Their name is also water based, Torrent. We also know FromSoft loves attributing water to death. Couldn't be more obvious in Elden Ring! Godwin being turning into a clam-faced mermaid. Both his, and the Ancestral Spirit's arenas are filled with water.
And the similarity of the Grace and Torrent's double jump does make you wonder. If it is not merely a cosmetic choice by FromSoft, then what are the lore implications? If it's spiritual in nature, and Torrent is using spiritual magic (from itself?) to double jump, does that mean the Guidance of Grace is spiritual magic from Marika's self?
Sorry for the ramble, but I'm feeling it!
So if we look at the state of Marika, falling apart and crumbling, that could explain why so many tarnished are losing or have lost the sight of grace! It's created by her own spirit, and she's waning! So instead of sending out hundreds of spirit threads of Guidance of Grace for all her Tarnished, she had to carefully pick only a select few that she places all her bets upon. Our hero Tarnished, and Godfrey.
Thank you for your video, and inspiring more ideas.
Oh don't worry I love rambles as they really make you think!! Godwyn is definitely another piece of the puzzle... the fact that he is water related and in the roots must have a depper meaning than we are currently finding! This is a very interesting topic indeed!
YAY!!! This Was Fantastic!!! I Love The Approach To The Crucible Connections To The Ancestor Spirits & Tribes.
I Have Been Tryin' To See If There Are Any Other Clues About This In The DLC.
You Nailed It!
Thanks Again!
Thank you!!! And if you do please come and share with me anything you find. I know there is so much more there still left to be found.
Im glad you enjoyed it and thanks for stopping by 🤍
1:50 Plantlers, if you will
😂 love this
I think the ancestral followers somehow discovered the Shaman's practices of spiritual rebirth and decided to try and revive them. My theory is that the Numen were originally split into three subcultures of light, dark, and twilight; or life, death, and rebirth. When they arrived in the lands between these three subcultures all existed together, and eventually developed into the Rauh, Nox, and Numen civilizations. They used to co exist, with the shaman acting as a balance between the two larger cultures, until one if not both cultures decided to break the cycle in order to gain full control of the crucible by creating Enir Ilim.
So you're very much correct when you said they are interpreting the shaman's practices wrong. They're working with 1/3 of the knowledge, if that.
I like this interpretation. It is very much possible
Great video! Ive seen a lot of videos on the subject of ancestral spirits but this one really stands out because it not only explains their lore and underlying thematics, but is also willing speculate and fill in the missing pieces. Same can honestly be said for your other videos too, serious props and keep it up.
l accually happen to agree with the theory regarding the underground trees having been sacrificed to the erdtree, and it was intresting to see how you arrived at the same theory differently than I and where you took it, especially in regards to how the sacrifice might’ve happened.
I personally believe those trees always lacked branches, and the reason why is actually the main reason why I arrived at the theory in the first place: the description for the Winged Greathorn.
“Distinctive horn suffused with the power of ancestral spirits. This large, wing-shaped specimen is wielded as a weapon of spirit worship.
In the ancestral spirit-worshipping faith, these are considered envoys' wings, made to *reap the lives of beings which experience no sprouting* .”
Trees that dont have branches by implication, *cant sprout* . As seeds/buds come from branches, following the conceptual relationship between horns and plants, you can think about the ancestral spirits relationship to their horns as a trees relationship to their branches.
This is accually what made me initially think “huh maybe these trees were sacrifices for the erdtree”, because as the description implies, in ages past, a lack of sprouting marked one as a sacrifice. If this is the case, then these trees lack of “sprouting” branches would make them perfect candidates for sacrifice.
Hei thanks for stopping by Im really glad you enjoyed my videos!!
And thank you for sharing your theory it's a very interesting theory! It could be that at some point these trees stopped sprouting.
Another thing I was thinking about post video is that we have always associated these trees to lets say "classic trees" while it looks like they could be pine trees. As the one we see in the mountaintops are pine looking... this would explain why they have no branches in the bottom part... just something else to complicate the theories even more haha!!
This is great I really enjoyed the connections you made! Iget the feeling that the Hornsent's understanding of the Crucible was incomplete
There's an interesting meditation on the connection between vegetation, the Green as it were, collecting the ancestral knowledge and spirit of previous generations and distributing it via psychedelic plants and fungus in Issue #21 of Warren Ellie's underrated "Planetary" graphic novel series. It's a stand alone issue so you don't need to be familiar with the series to understand it and I recommend reading it if you are interested in going further in the subject.
Wow, thank you for this, I'll definitely make sure to check it out! It sound very interesting! Thanks!!!
So is Marika putting death in the roots of her tree an attempt to save it (godwyn’s body) or to give it ‘eternal’ energy? Is the removal of death why the omen’s horns don’t sprout? Is marika just repeating what Elden John did and this isn’t the first time the lands between have gone through this transition? (Sky taken away from an eternal city sounds like it was missing death to me, followed by an age of beasts or dark ages?) love videos that feed the lore addiction! 😅 great vid
Thank you so much for your comment and for sharing your thoughts! Right, so your connnection to the fact that horns dont sprout anymore because death was removed is amazing BUT!!!! does this then mean that marika removed death while still allied with the hornsent? this is an amazing theory!! And also the link to feeding death to the tree is really interesting!! lots to look into! I like your thinking!!
An interesting note on the “dead” trees in the underground: in Moghwyn Palace, the albinaurics seem to be making sacrifices to the trees. There are bodies with runes left at the bottom of the trees they’re circling. One even has what looks like an altar set up beneath it.
Also, there are larger examples of the trees in the Consecrated Snowfield. I think maybe they are what Latenna calls “the ancient bowers” when you first go there. They seem to have been older, larger trees, and many have broken pieces (branches perhaps?) scattered around them. There are also a few stray ancestral followers near the trees, and the Nox are tied to the area somehow both by the architecture in Ordina, as well as the ghost dragonkin scattered around. Been pondering what the connections there might be.
Great video!
Ah very good thinking!! I like where this is going, Ye I didn't really considered the Cons Snowfields or MP enough in this video as i was focusing to find some solid theories... definitely connections there!! And thanks for spotting and sharing this!!
Great take! I believe that the Euphoria twinblade is a key component of this discussion. It was made from a golden tree (but before the Erdtree). A deep shadowed rabbit hole.
Good spot! This is something else I'm researching.. where is gold coming from? it's clearly been added to an existing ring and used to turn a tree into the erdtree... who had the gold before and what was it's original purpose?
I just watched occam’s onions vid on the collapse of the sun realm. He states that the Sun acted like the erdtree. Maybe thats where the gold came from?
Ah interesting I didn't see that. Gonna go and check it out
@@happyskeret5692I tend to agree, the Erdtree kind of plays the role of the sun, and gold and the sun are symbolically linked in pretty much all ancient cultures. The Golden Star that has fallen is probably an allegory for the fall of the sun realm, who's cities broke apart and literally fell from the sky onto the LB
@@allthe1maybe even call it the fell god, whose symbol is the sun
Fantastic. Was looking for a video just like this.
Thank you!! Glad you liked it and thanks for stopping by!!
Yessss the shaman connection between the Nox, Marika's shaman village and the ancestoral followers is super compelling especially as people who continually branch off like horns or branches
Also you should take a look at the petrified trees in the Mohgwyn Palace, they have new growth
Oh wow thanks for the tip I totally missed that!!
I was literally asking myself about this last night😂 ty❤
Ahaha glad I could help 😂😂 it’s such a mess the siofra river lore. The forst time i was there i was like oooohhhhh woooooow but then like wtf is this place 😂
it's funny how we no longer become "undead" and I don't think it's just a game mechanic becasue this all started with the "dream" maybe we never woke up
I wonder if the echo if Marika we hear from Melina regarding Marika's desire to investigate the depths of the Golden Order stems from the time the Erd Tree strated to run dry. Marika might not have fu!ly understood what she'd done by removing Destined Death from the Elden Ring and if she did discover it in her research, was likely looking for some quick fix to solve it rather than ad it defeat and the failure of the Golden Order by returning Destined Death to the world. Note that Melina as Marika's daughter does study the problem and come to the conclusion Destined Death needs to be returned because Melina doesn't have Marika's ego getting in the way.
Very interesting point! It definitely stand! It also makes me think.. what if then someone betrayed marika.. I'm still not sure why she ended up with the ring as the tree and the ring were clearly two spearate things at some point.. only after a time the erdtree becomes the embodiment of order... so someone maybe tricked marika and promised her powers that weren't true...
@@AmeliaAeon I honestly think it's a misunderstanding on how the universe works. Metyr and Marika both lack the wisdom to understand the necessity of death. Metyr is an eldritch being of the Void and might not experience death as we know it. She doesn't "die" when the Tarnish defeats her, she slips out of reality. Marika was a traumatized woman who having seen horrific slaughter instinctively wanted to make a world without death without understanding the wider implications. We don't know if she ever did or if her paranoia led her to think she'd been betrayed or sabotaged.
Yes, this make sense. We have to take into account each character personal story. And I also agree that they misinterpret the meaning of life and death or even the universe.
Loved this, insta sub :)
Hei!! Thank you so much!!! Glad you enjoyed the video and thank you for stopping by!! 🤍