You folks in the Methodist Church are facing the exact same issues as are playing out in the Adventist churches around the world right now. God is preparing an obedient people for His soon return...may we all look to His Word for help to reveal His character to the world at large. May God bless your ministry.
I grew up attending the Methodist church from the late 1950s into the late 1970s and I agree that it is no longer ideologically the same institution as when it was originally founded. In 1978 I voted with about half of the congregation to separate from the Methodist denomination because of ongoing compromises to its tenets and values. Today, I see many small community churches of all denominations dying because they have failed in attracting young people because they have become worldly.
Thank you ! I began my life in a Methodist foundling home in Teajon Korea at 3 months old in 1952 during the Korean War. Unwanted because I was 1/2 Korean and 1/2 American GI, my Jesus kept me in the palm of His hand- holding me close. Methodist missionaries in that home, fed me (with what little food and milk was available), and loved on me; and then let me go at 18 months to my new adoptive parents, who were also American missionaries during the war serving with the YMCA. I was taken to my new adoptive parents' home in Pusan, Korea from Teajon by Thelma Maw, another Methodist missionary stationed in Korea during the war. My parents brought me to America in 1955, I became an Amererican citizen, was raised in the Methodist church, and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior at 16 years old at YMCA camp. My father guided me to that decision, and I was honored at that time to have him tie my YMCA first Blue Raggers knot. I have always known throughout my 70 years, that it is Jesus who has guided and protected me by His love and grace. In the 70's I watched as my father became embedded in the Jesus Seminar movement that was becoming prevalent at that time in the Methodist church. From that time on, I watched on the sidelines as both parents were increasingly radicalized by the theological humanism taking over not only the Methodists, but most of the mainline churches. The sexuality issues in my parents lives with regard the church occured in the early 90's, when my younger brother " came out ". During those years I remember my father and brother having very volatile arguments ( even though I no longer lived at home). My parents eventually gave in, finding solace (I feel) in the acceptance of homosexuality by the mainstream churches. I don't claim to judge others as my own walk has been less than perfect in God's eyes, but rather choose to ask Him for forgiveness daily. How blessed I have been throughout my life by God's immense love and grace, and how wonderful to have Jesus as my Lord and Savior and precious friend. Sadly, the immense strain on my father of my brothers death from HIV, contributed to his heart attack and passing only 2 weeks after my brother. I am grateful to God that he gave me the opportunity to help bring my brother back to the Lord in the last weeks before his passing. I would play my guitar and sing worship songs to him in the evenings by his bedside ( he was on a ventilator). On the last evening before he fell into a permanent coma, we prayed the sinners prayer together and I asked him to accept Jesus back into his life. He lovingly squeezed my hand, and I knew then that he would be ok! He passed a few days later. Jesus did not condemn the woman at the well, nor did he accept her lifestyle. He lovingly said " go and sin no more". We as Jesus' church must exemplify this true love in our daily walk, always aware and discerning of false teachings disguised as " wolves in sheep's clothing", yet with the compassion of Jesus to reach out to those who are hurting, alone, and abandoned; always caring for the lost and least of these.
Craig, contrary to popular belief, you DO NOT have to ask for daily forgiveness, because Christ has already forgiven you, that's the beauty of grace, our past, present and future sins are forgiven. That doesn't mean you can live anyway you want to in sin, the idea is to walk worthy of that salvation. Our salvation is not license to sin, but license NOT to sin, do you see the difference. Methodism and religion tells people they must constantly ask for foegiveness, which gives the idea you can lose your salvation and we must do something to earn it.
go and sin no more. everyone passes that right up. we all sin but we shouldn't keep repeating it. we should repent. ask for forgiveness. not lead others into our sins whatever they may be
I left the Methodist church 30 years ago when my senior pastor condoned an assistant pastor living with his girlfriend and told a group of teenage girls abortion is a private matter between a woman and her physician. More recently I heard a Methodist pastor repeatedly say "this is where I don't agree with scripture" and turn a Biblical spiritual truth into a socialist parable, namely, the 5 wise virgins should have shared their excess lamp oil with the 5 foolish virgins. There is a pastor in Fort Worth who purchases advertising space in the newspaper where he weekly blasphemes and misinterprets scripture. So no, this is not a matter of sexuality but of dismissal of the truth of God’s inerrant words and a turn allowing culture, not the Bible, to shape the church.
I’m a Baptist worried about the direction of the Methodist church. This is so encouraging to see to help congregants understand and adhere to biblical truth. Keep up the good work pastor.
Christ Jesus never taught “Do not judge” He taught to not judge hypocritically. Read the complete chapter. The bible requires reading skills. Chapter 7
For me, the Bible speaks to me as is seems it spoke to the early Gnostics. What of early church fathers condemning any other way than their own interpretation and disciplines as heresy? For me, it seems the gnostics focused on the spiritual teachings of Jesus more so than the physical life. To me, that is more inline with what Jesus asks followers to do. Following Jesus’s teachings does not have to be church approved. Is the condemnation of a certain understanding or relationship with Jesus Christ as heresy not self-righteousness in itself? What if what is claimed as heresy today is a more pure attainment of a relationship with Christ? Heresy is a term that could be weaponized against pure teachings even. Paul in Acts says “But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:”
My husband and I left the UMC in 2014 for this reason. Our local UMC is just now deciding to leave the conference for these very statements. We knew back then this was going on and we could not condone it. We now go to a home fellowship. We read the Bible and believe it all. Sherry
This is what I believe also. There is a much larger nefarious power involved which seeks to divide and conquer. But try and get others to see this. God help us.
This is such a bummer! I fled from “my” church, the Episcopal Church, over its capitulation to the so called liberals. I’ve struggled trying to reconcile myself to Catholicism, because that church is holding the line, so to speak. Now, I’ve recently joined my local UMC, only to discover what a mess it’s in. In my UMC church, no one seems willing to even discuss these problems. I have no idea which way they may go in this impending split. I’m an old guy, soon to be shuffling off this mortal plane. So, I guess it really isn’t my problem. But, I find it so disappointing.
vegasgeorge-I am sorry that you have experienced disappointment in so many faiths. But I will tell you it may not be your problem but I want to leave a strong, foundational church where the Bible and God's love for us serves as guidance for our coming generations. We worship God, but we hold each other up for Him. So know that you are oved, He is still in control, and we are all pilgrims on our journey. May He continue to bless you and He will not disappoint you.
I would suggest not the Catholic church.. they focus too much on tradition than Scripture.. i left the Catholic church when i started to study the Bible & found many discrepencies regarding "requirements for salvation" and what they insisted, if you DIDNT do, you would go to hell for. But thats just what i have learned over the decades.
This mess began in 1968. It's not just the sex thing. I call the UMC in my town the "United Methodist Club" today. And they don't discuss the split (not even during coffee & donuts) because they rotate preachers so much you never get to have the same one long enough to get involved.
We are reviewing this along with Adam Hamilton's view on why he is staying with the Methodist church, the other side of the coin, both with love and concern.
I foresee a similar thing happening in the uk. The vote by Conference on same sex marriage makes it inevitable. Thank you for outlining the crucial issues so clearly and simply.
This is so sad…. I’m 66 and was born into the Methodist Church. I think my grandparents would die if they knew this was happening to their beloved, little country church. I know God is saddened and extremely angry with all things happening in our world right now …. !
Sadly, sexuality is the primary issue pushing the division, though most conservative UMC pastors will deny that. I am currently a member of a UMC with a conservative, narcissistic, lying pastor whose bullying has led to over 50% of the active members to leave. I have known of three UMC pastors who had extra marital affairs with church members, two of whom divorced their wives, married their lovers, and continued to pastor churches. Though I am not sure what a "practicing" homosexual is, I believe that a homosexual pastor who is not a lying narcissist having extramarital affairs and divorcing their spouse would be more effective in bringing people to Christ than those other pastors I have known.
Something I think could do more good within the UMC than deal with the sexuality issue is to deal with motivating and energizing the ranks of Pastors, Superintendents, and the Bishops. Too many laissez faire attitudes, unmotivated, lack of creative visions is the reason the UMC is in a major decline while those Evangelical type churches are growing ... and its not all about their theology differences, instead its motivation. Get out in the community, talk to people, invite them to church, think of new ways to create vigor in the Church ... its not just read a Sermon for a couple services on Sunday and do your own thing the other 6 days a week. Total commitment and involvement is needed, we pay you very well, free parsonage, and other perks, do your job, Methodism is declining..
As you say, we have many more problems than how to handle the issue of homosexuality. I've known of similar instances, some by traditionalists and some by liberals, and the response has been close to what you have described. Yes, a problem with these pastors but more importantly with their bishops who allowed them to stay in ministry. I'm sorry that you have had so many terrible experiences with the UMC.
The church leaders should have used church discipline on those Pastors that were divorcing their wives and running around. Right there it showed people being lukewarm not standing for what is right in God's church.
The gay life is in world of it science, but when coming into a UMC Church ,it s not to change the church but be changed by repenting of one s sin and turning to go the other direction guided by The Bible, and Rules of the Church ..
The Wesleyan Church is the proper name for where i need to be- however, I would love to get together & form exactly just that- please let's pray & do this! Im in wisconsin & Jesus can see us through this!
The breaking point for me came about 20 years ago when new Bibles arrived at our church that contained several pages in the preface apologizing for the "masculine biases" of language in previous editions of the Bible. There in nothing in the Bible that needs to be apologized for! Our small town UMC church would never 'rock the boat' in protest and sadly as the split occurs will probably go along with the UMC if for only the sake not causing 'trouble'
Thank You for putting these together, I now have a better understanding of the issues. My Grandfather Philip Embury built the first Methodist Church in Manhattan, he was also the first preacher.
Thank you so much. I only wish the GMC had been an option in 1970 when the Southern Illinois Conference of the United Methodist Church sent us a pastor who denied every element of the Apostles Creed and added that he was "saved" (using finger gestures) when he was a teenager but gave up all that stuff in seminary. So, when I called the district superintendent, whom I knew since he had been our pastor years before, his only suggestion was that I go fishing with him and become a friend and not be concerned about his theology. That was totally unacceptable, and the entire young adult class resigned from the UMC and planted a Free Methodist church in the same small town in Southern Illinois. Since then, we have moved away and have joined an Independent Baptist Church. So like you, we didn't leave the Methodist Church, but it left us.
No telling how many great people we have lost because many of our preachers don't believe. Whenever we make these claims, centrists tell us that we're making things up. But you and I know differently.
Thank you, Rob, for these exceedingly helpful and encouraging videos. I watched them all this morning and will share them with church members and friends. In the last video, I was in tears alongside you, reflecting on the strong tower of witnesses you named who have cast a vision and long shadow for us to follow. I, too, think of those ancients mentioned in Hebrews 11 who, by faith, embraced things that they were not able to hold in their hands, but could hold, by faith, in their hearts. The long view. We are standing somewhere in between... the visioning and the tangible. How grateful I am for the broad shoulders of the saints on which we are standing, believing that what is ahead is far greater... better than our current wrestlings. We'll get there... one faith-filled, obedient step at a time. Walk on in strength, pilgrims. The best is truly yet to be. Shalom. Peace for the journey.
It doesn’t sound like an amicable separation. It seems those wanting to be more permissive should feel free to form their own beliefs. Basically I’ve got to give up on the church that I e believed. That’s unfair part. That should be their place to move on
Thank you Rob for sharing in this video series. So many people think the split is only about sexuality. Many conservative pastors don't realize the basics of what is going on with the split.
Sexuality is a key factor. I made an honest effort to hear from the Liberals. They simply say scripture has been misinterpreted. The soon to be new Bishop for North Ga made it very clear she did not “feel” homosexuality wS a sin and she would marry and ordain them. Well good luck, Sister.
I have need of but one teacher & that is the Holy Spirit of God. I believe in Jesus & love & the Bible as revealed by God's Holy Spirit. I will remain with United Methodist because I believe that is where God can use me most. I will be still & hear my Savior. Wesley is not my savior or teacher although I will weigh his words along with others while remaining in constant prayer as always. It may be very dangerous to our Christian faith to completely deny that we should not be constantly learning. These are my thoughts as searched out in the quiet of my soul.
The church is not dividing. A small subset is choosing to leave. Others of us are choosing to honor our membership vows and remain within the United Methodist Church. I personally believe that the blood of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ covers our sins. Yes, he told the woman at the well to sin no more. But, not everyone is perfect and he did accept her until she learned better. There is the adulter who is divorced, remarried and living openly in adultery. There are unmarried couples of all ages who are living together and unwed mothers (and fathers) attending church. There are domestic violence abusers who sit next to their victim on Sunday morning. Yet, I'm hearing crickets from the GMC about these issues. Are you?
Pastor, these are a really good set of videos and really make the case. Where you ever a lawyer? In fact, they are the best videos I have seen related to the UMC divide. I have been looking for something as good from the other side but have come up with nothing so far that even comes close.
I did not realize that Rev. Renfroe was my cousin! Col Samuel Doak McMahan was my three times grandfather! My family has been part of the Texas Annual Conference since its beginnings. I am a sixth-generation Methodist preacher. So our roots are similar. However, I must disagree with Rev. Renfroe's summary of the remaining United Methodists. I plan to remain United Methodist; however, I believe in the divinity of Jesus. I affirm the primacy of scripture. I believe that salvation is received by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Our United Methodist is thriving because we have stuck to our mission and the gospel of Jesus. So sad that a few want to only focus on division instead of the mission of making disciples.
I am a Christ Follower in a Methodist Church that took Methodist out of its name, and our congregation will soon vote on where we go next. Thank you for making these six explanations of differences between Christ followers and self-followers. If there is no accountability in a governed denomination, then why have a denomination. Thanks for making God, the Bible, Jesus, sexuality, tradition, and denominational conflicts clear. Blessings to you from SC TX.
Rob Renfroe was my pastor at Mission Bend UMC in 1994 during a very difficult time in my life. Although I left UMC shortly thereafter, I always had great respect for him. My sister has been grappling with leaving UMC and recently made her decision to leave. Watching this vid only gives me even more respect for Rob. My prayers are with you all.
I have a friend who has a problem that has hurt many ladies; not physically but mentally & emotionally. He had the love them & leave them pattern to his life. After wrestling with this problem for many years but never giving up on repentance & praying for God's help. He really regretted whom he had hurt. The way he dealt with this was to have no close relationships with women that he might hurt. He seems to have many lady friends but never let's them get close enough to get hurt in a relationship. It is a lonely life for him I'm sure, but he loves Jesus first & foremost & we are called to love one another not hurt one another. He knows it's wrong to hurt, so he looks for ways to heal rather than hurt although he suffers from being alone. But he knows as Christians we are often called to suffer for our faith. But he tells me he is content in giving love. The same is true for any problem we may have. If what we do or how we act has hurt others we need to turn from our wicked ways...pray & search. God's Spirit for a way to love rather than hurt. This applies to someone who chooses to kill others or someone who is hurting others through being gay. It is something we search out through much prayer, study & possibly fasting. If no one has been hurt then our spirit should be at peace even if we are giving up something that is a psychological defect that is a longing of habit.
However, some things are personal us & God & possibly a few select people such as our pastor. We should not make them public in the church community if it will cause hurt to God's family.
It's highly illogical to suggest that homosexuality is a greater degree of sin than any other human, flesh-based activity. It's not wrong to admit that gay people live in sin...but so do straight people. This concept of "straight superiority" is DEEPLY flawed, theologically, and God will most certainly "sort out" those churches who claim that "straight is the only way"...and not Christ. The essence of Christ is not based on sexual orientation, and that how ALL healthy churches must proceed when crafting their dogma.
Thanks, Captain Obvious on sin being sin. But like it or not, as a whole, there is a superior aspect. Your lame - and it is lame - attempt disregards the fact that Procreation is a far greater responsibility. The Gospel of Ricker wants to blend Christ into a situation that justifies sex and only sex. Be fruitful and multiply distilled it the best. It keeps the earth moving. Too bad you can’t see the superiority of that.
I'm perplexed that so often those wanting to stay true to God's word are then ones going off to become the "new" version of the old faith. And so often those who are "progressive" do not "progress" but are the ones allowed to stay under the old name, etc. I'm not Methodist, just seeing that this happens again and again.
Before the announcement of the next General conference being postponed , anticipation of more imminent. has maybe been the reason for the rush to such drastic.measjres in leaving The UMC .which as it turns out the postponement allows for more time for prayer for The traditional.UMC .
Thank you so much for the explanation, What is your plan for United Methodist Churches in Africa which want to join GMC? There is need for more explanations about whats going on to many pastors in Uganda and South Sudan.
I have been encouraged by this very well presented explanation of the internal controversies that have negatively affected the mission of the UMC. We left the UMC in 2018 because of the confusion and the apostasy that has been pushed by the leadership that has turned its back on the Gospel of our Lord. I thank God that there exists true, leaders in the church who have stepped up to defend the traditional values of the Gospel in the face of such fierce and unholy opposition. Blessings on you and you efforts tho salvage the church from the coming judgement of God.
Taking a stand for the truth doesn't have to be mean spirited. Truth is truth and God is not going to change His mind about sin. He had to provide a redemption plan because of sin. Romans chapter 1 is not confusing. All anyone needs to do is read this chapter with child like faith and trust God's word to mean exactly what it says. These scriptures are self explanatory, they really are easy to understand. God hates all sin, period.
Rob, I am a member of The Woodlands Methodists Church. We are at our second home in Cocoa Beach, FL. Our local Methodist Church in Flda has decided not to have and discussions or debate, so they will be a part of the changed United Methodist Church. Is there a website to find a local Disafiliated Methodist Church. Thanks, Bob
All I have to do and think is all about Jesus! All else I will know in the end! My UMC has a book of disciplines which says Gay marriage and ordination is forbidden. I have my thoughts about it but I keep them to myself. God’s will be done!
I have recently come to the understanding that the Lord is my shepherd. I'm not the shepherd. If I continue to be the shepherd then it will be flawed. If I realize the Lord is my shepherd and he stays the shepherd, then I as a man won't stray and mess things up for my life. This can be applied to the church as a whole body. All churches need to realize the Lord is the shepherd of the church. When man starts to put in their ideas and their views on things it becomes man-led Church. Man kind is not the shepherd the Lord is.
The Gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-8: "3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, that CHRIST died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and that HE was buried, and that HE rose again the third day according to the Scriptures; and that HE was seen by Cephas, then by the Twelve. Afterward HE was seen by over five hundred brothers at once, of whom the greater part remain until this present day, but also some fell asleep. Afterward HE was seen by James, then by all the apostles. And last of all HE was seen by me also, as one born out of time." THE GOSPEL IS ALL ABOUT CHRIST.
All it takes is a little leaven to leaven the whole lump. I don't believe we are going to be in heaven because we follow a denomination; it is by faithfulness and obedience to the Word of God. Once a compromise enters, another one will eventaully follow. I can't find a church that doesn't appear to have some worldly influence and looking to find a way to bring in the next big thing in the secualr mindset. I am a Christian. No denominational affiliation. Just a Christ follower.
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. Shameful so many "Christians" choose to follow the old testament, verse 37, and ignore the words of Christ, verse 39.
verse 39. These words of Christ are also from the old testament. Lev:19v18. The unique words of Christ is v40-clearly succinctly summarizing the entirety of the Old Testament Law.
When anything goes, Everybody leaves. Why belong to a religion that accepts any behavior? The world already does that. It just becomes a social club. Where people are made to feel good. Everything is superficial. No depth to faith or the individual.
Jesus's ministry is about love, towards God, towards each other, and towards all of creation. That's why the liberal and progressive sides of the Methodist Church have taken the views that they have. They also recognize that human beings change and learn new things about themselves - often for the better - over the many thousands of years that humans have been on this earth.
GOD is the same yesterday; today & forever. Our afflictions as broken people cannot and will never be able to justify the continuation of sinful actions that became more important than trusting in the saving grace we so desperately need through Jesus' sacrifice for our debt. The Umc never shunned the men and woman who would come to worship- but there are biblical truths that are being ignored and instead the desires of the physical flesh have been causing divisions among the folliwers of Christ. We are not to let anyone cause us to sin or lead us from absolute truth. GOD is sad and angry because once again mankind is given so much, yet still puts self first
What we think we know about God is how we've interpreted God's interactions with us in this world. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but the Bible is written by humans and their attempts to understand God. As we humans better understand - over the centuries - about our world and its various inhabitants, so too should humans adjust their understandings about God and the world.
@@toguoppusunggu7003 You are so right that the old & new testaments were written by humans- The old testament is historial truth...the times were when God revealed things to come to faithful servants or to those who he would use to best show His divine nature. He fortold of what would come to be...He revealed that there would be a savior born to create a way to reconcile us to God. A savior who did not want to give us orders, but to lead by example and walk in human form so He would know all our pain, joy, & temptations firsthand and to show us that He would understand. He came to let us know we cannot be perfect but we can receive a gift, He Himself, that would erase our past & give us a new way to live. We cannot buy it...we cannot earn it...we must believe and when we do...our way of living begins to change- we feel a wanting to be the person we were created to be..one with a care & concern for others...a thankfulness for all we have & a sincere desire to give thanks for this gift even though we deserve none of the grace we are so freely given. The new testament contains letters written by those who saw FIRSTHAND the miracles because they walked right alongside Jesus...Absolute truth that never changes- the flesh and physical Earth will age & change...new evils and temptations will present themselves- yet the will of God & the truth of creation remains unchanged and unable to be destroyed!!
No, it has taken its position in direct defiance of God which is why we see overt sexual perversion being openly celebrated on the streets and Church altars draped in the pride flag, despite pride being a sin Celebrate the world or God At least own your choice God isn't your puppy He does not call sin 'love'
I would like to say I and my UMC have the same core beliefs as you stated. However, I believe Jesus came as a man to earth as an example to love and accept all people into a relationship with Jesus Christ. It’s not our place to judge but to love…that job belongs only to God. Our church invites all people to attend and serve. I personally think Jesus frowns on those who choose to out people because of their sexual preference. Those in my church are some of our best servants.
Our Church has just voted to disaffiliate with the UMC. You speak of love and non-judgement. Our church is open to and welcomes in ALL people as no one is sinless. We are not judging anyone as that is between them and God. However, we cannot expect our Pastor to perform a marriage that God clearly disapproves of in the Bible. We can’t consciously condone and celebrate things that God does not accept simply because they are becoming “norms” in society. God destroyed whole cities in the Bible who had succumbed to “socially acceptable behaviors”. We need to get back to God and His Word. Sadly our world is fast becoming a more sinful social club. It seems as if God is stepping in and waking us up to get back to His Word. God Bless Us All! And God bless this Pastor for helping us to understand what is going on in our churches.
@@jocornell8974 yes, you have all the right thinking- in the days of Jesus walking the Earth- no one was turned away from the unconditional love of Jesus..and as people learn God's word, the real scripture & begin to see sin in their own lives for what it is...they come...repenting....& by the change in heart,& the help of the Holy Spirit , we are new in our thinking, behaving, and serving- We have to remember who we belong to- and that is God- we have to identify as heirs of the kingdom and claim ourselves as children of God- brothers & sisters in Christ. For all time humankind has had a nature of great concern for self...by paying too much attention to self, we start to find ourselves righteous or more righteous than God- the right to change an unchangeable dna structure is not even possible- to think that we "feel" like we need a costume that looks male or is classified as female is not going to change who we are & our value to God. It is good to remember that we are a soul & spirit that has been given a vehicle ( the physical body) to use to get around & carry out God's plan & to show God's love through our abilities while on Earth. We eventually will part with the physical body because it will wear out...but we are so very blessed because our eternal life through Jesus & his act of sacrifice- paid a debt we could never pay on our own- and our true self will live on past this temporary world.
He sums this all up very well at the end when he says “…join with like minded people…” My fear for this group is there will be no toleration for critical and sincere searching of scripture by individuals. It will become a separatist denomination of theologically rusted robots. Personally, I can’t be a part of a church whose premise for existence is exclusion. Where is the grace?
“Sound teaching”, “Biblical truth”, “traditional beliefs”. I hear a lot of words spent to say what boils down to nothing but prejudice. There are truths about you friends and neighbors, your sons and daughters, that you are pretending are not true, so that you don’t have to learn or undergo any uncomfortable growth. So that you can pretend your own prejudices are divinely ordained. This hurts real people, and I guarantee it deeply hurts people that you personally purport to love. The GMC is fast-tracking their own irrelevance.
I don't know why you would bother to attack Christianity. Go believe in having meaningless sex and celebrating sexual perversion if that's for you. If the Christians and the Bible are right you'll get to tell God he's a bigot. Until then shut your mouth.
@@barbeeska Seems I struck a nerve. I like how you interpret my attack on prejudice as an attack on Christianity. It just goes to prove my point that this movement to disaffiliate is fueled by ignorant hate. Some people are gay-- that's the way its always been and always will be. Some people you know are sad that they can't be honest with you because they know how you'll react.
We left the umc in 2017. The conference made us purchase our bldg back from them. The church burned back in 1978 and was rebuilt by members without a dime from conference. They pushed inc. several years back with the clause they owned all property. Not a Christian organization. Power and money hungry.
We organized as an independent church lead by scripture and biblical principles. We grew from seven to over a 100 christians. We pray for the presence of the Holy Spirit at our worship services and all meetings. God is good and he will Bless obedience to his word.
All Discipline Paragraphs should be, , must be upheld to.keep UMC Tradition..intact for the future . Sadly, by leaving leaves the future of The traditions of The .UMC for future generations on a disturbing path.
I watched and listened to several of your viideos. My ancesters go back to the beginning of Methodism in the colonies, but we long since departed. I heard with interest as you used Wesleyan ideals more or less interchangeable with Christ and him crucified. I ascertained from another source
that GMC is not requiring the property to be owned by the conference. This is probably a more palatable choice for those that have felt so abused by the UMC conference. I applaud that you affirm that the Bible is the heart of our beliefs as Christians and the book is not multiple choice belief system. It is obvious, however, that the GMC as you conceive it is a new repository of the old traditions . As such, it is a gathering of the faithful more than a launching of a new mission, your protestations not withstanding. As Paul pointed out, he wanted even those not in his group to succeed in declaring the good news. May you succeed in doing God's will.
Yes. Allow.. compromise.. I attend one as well. But!!! I understand the Bible is 100% God’s word. Not to be treated like a salad bar. ( picking and choosing what looks good). Also to rightly divide scripture like Paul said in 2nd Timothy 2:15. KJV.
The spirit is not “left”. Global Methodist is inherent with the Wesleyan teachings. What happened to the Creeds being proclaimed in the UMC? This is not a union for same sex love. Roots need restoration for a forward move in holiness.
I just wish you would not call the new one Global because it gives me chills along with a Global government and global currency and other global stuff. Wish you change away from the word global.
As what Rev. Rob Renfroe would call a "Centrist", I love how the Pastor wants to try to hide his own biases. "Liberals views are a product of their own time." How about you recognize that you and your views may be a product of YOUR time and upbringing? You state, "We conservatives don't believe that you can just choose what scriptures you want to follow." Really? So, you uphold the scripture that says: "I give this command (from the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife." - 1 Corinithians 10-11. (And this is repeated multiple times by Jesus, also). BUT, I don't see the conservatives in the Methodist church trying to block divorced men and women from remarrying. They are only interested in stopping homosexuals. That sounds like picking scriptures to me. How about this one? "The women are to keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak." - 1 Corinthians 14:34. Do you enforce this one? I know you're response, "Well, Paul wrote that because he was a product of his time." You mean the exact same statement that you just threw out about Liberals using. How about that? How about this one? "But I tell you, never swear an oath at all...Simply say yes or no because anything beyond that is from the Devil." - Matthew 5:34. But, I keep hearing conservative pastors in the Methodist church say that they "have taken an oath to protect the Book of Discipline." How can you take an oath to follow the book of Discipline if you aren't violating the bible and taking oaths. I could keep this going all day (and I don't even have to go into the Old Testament). Bad news for you Rev. Renfroe, YOU ARE JUST AS GUILTY OF CHOOSING WHAT SCRIPTURES YOU WANT TO FOLLOW AS THE LIBERALS. Don't get me wrong, I understand why the Conservative leaders ignore scriptures like 1 Corinthians 10-11 about marriage but want to enforce scriptures on marriage when it come to homosexuality: Because scriptures like 1 Corinthians MIGHT AFFECT YOU! Everyone is always interested in enforcing scriptures that don't affect them. I know lots of GMC supporters who are happy to quote scriptures on homosexuality but conveniently turn a deaf ear when someone quotes the scripture about how they are REQUIRED to tithe 10% of their income (off the top) to God. The hypocrisy is overwhelming.
The thing is, the church has always gone by the priciple of consensus in Biblical interpretation. The latitude of interpretation is laid out in church history. At least Rev. Renfroe can find continuity with the church throughout time and geography. And that is not an interpretation just picking and choosing at whim. Whereas the liberal church can find NO continuity with its interpretation with ANY church or Christian prior to their own invention and utterly on the whim of the spirit of whatever is the pop philosophy of the day.
@@hexahexametermeter The problem with saying the church has "always gone by the consensus of biblical interpretation" based upon continuity is that this philosophy has been the source of ALL evils inside the church. And it DOES allow people to interpret the church according to their own whim. Over the centuries, the repression of the common people to the "divine rights" of their rulers was a consensus within the church based upon continuity. This was because people chose to focus on the scriptural laws they wanted to hear and IGNORE the ones they didn't want to follow. The torturing of non-believers/heretics into submission was based upon consensus in the church and continuity of ideas. The repression of women was a consensus within the church based upon the continuity of ideas. Slavery was okay based on a consensus within the church and based on the continuity of ideas. Again, these were all based upon scriptural interpretations created by people who focused on the scriptures they WANTED to enforce and follow while ignoring laws and scriptures that they DIDN'T want to follow or that might apply to them. What Rev. Renfroe is doing is no different than the practices listed above. He is defending a consensus within the church based upon a continuity of ideas. However, as I note, these ideas are based on the scriptural interpretations that he WANTS to follow. Meanwhile, he is perfectly comfortable IGNORING other biblical laws that he doesn't want to follow. It was only the "Liberals" within the church who challenged the traditional scriptural interpretations by focusing on love over the law that overthrew these ideas. If it wasn't for the 'liberal church' challenging long-held consensus's within the church, the above practices would still be taking place. Freedom from kings and the repressive edicts of tyrannical rulers was once a "pop philosophy" of the day. Not torturing people into practicing your faith was once a "pop philosophy" of the day. Women not being subjugated to men was once a "pop philosophy" of the day. Slavery being evil was a "pop philosophy" of the day. And none of them were supported by consensus with traditional scriptural interpretations.
Your argument has so many holes--where to start? The early church wouldnt bow to Caesar so so much for "divne right". Even Augustine argued slavery was outside of God's will and even when his stance on torture became the accepted policy in places in the west, it wasnt the accepted policy or practice in the east. Really the only criteria you utilize is your own opinion of right and wrong since you cant find any of your modern inventions in scripture or in historical reflection. There is no limit to what could be acceptible in your criteria. We'll see what new things you come up with in the next few decades.
@@hexahexametermeter First of all, I find your reference to “you” amusing since I voted to go GMC for my church’s discernment process and have left to attend a GMC church. My issue isn’t with the GMC. It is with the HYPOCRISY of certain GMC leaders (like Rev. Renfroe) who want to only focus on the scriptures and teachings they like while ignoring those they don’t like. In this way, they (and those who support them) are NO BETTER than the UMC people. Your response to my post is an excellent example of this: I noticed you avoided touching upon the topic of the Church’s repression of women. I noticed you avoided touching on the torturing and killing of people who didn’t share Christian viewpoints (which happened even before Christianity become a state religion). You didn’t have a good response to them so you ignored them (the same way Rev. Renfroe and other ignore the scriptures that I brought up in my initial post). Even the arguments you did make against me were exceptionally weak (which is funny for someone who called mine weak). Your initial post argues that we should rely upon biblical precedents and tradition. Still, when I bring up Precedent and Traditions that lasted for thousands of years, you refer back to times BEFORE precedents even existed and ignore the more than a THOUSAND YEARS of actual precedents and traditions that existed after the creation of the Christian church. “Divine Right to Rule” is a historical church precedent (founded in the Teachings of Paul) that existed for over a thousand years! You can verify its existence in many early writings! But you try to ignore it by stating that Christians refused to bow to Caesar. Even this statement is FALSE. In fact, many Christians did bow to Caesar, and it was a topic of great debate in the Early Church, with many early Christians arguing that martyrdom was equivalent to suicide and should not be glorified. Many in the early church had no issue with bowing to Caesar (especially in light of Paul’s writings). They felt that they were “Giving to Caesar what is Caesars and giving to God what is God’s,” stating they were members of the Roman Empire so he could have their bodies, but God would keep their souls. This practice still exists when people say the Pledge of Alliance (a violation of Jesus's explicit command to never take oaths.) The divide in the early church about whether to bow to Caesar demonstrates that there was NO Precedent or Tradition at the time. A Precedent and Tradition wasn’t created until years later. And that precedent was “Divine Right to Rule”. Your reference to Saint Augustine opposing slavery is just one person’s writings. Hardly a precedent or tradition that supersedes the fact that for over 1000 years after his death, the church would still be condoning slavery. Many even referenced Biblical writings to support it. Paul discussed the responsibility of slaves to their masters and even returned a runaway slave to his master with the request that the master “reaccept him as a slave and forgive him for running away.” The Christian church never outlawed or formally condemned the practice for over a thousand years. You can point to a few random authors here and there, but you can point to a few random authors of any idea anywhere. And their ideas of opposing slavery would have been just as radical as the UMC’s view of permitting homosexual marriage.
Read the scriptures and you'll have your answers. All of you. I am currently attending a UMC that has elected to disafiliate from the " Organization " because of the rules that the organization has. Thank you, no. I will abide by the Holy Scriptures. Those are the ONLY rules you need. God bless all.
I was a UM licensed local pastor for 11 years. I left the UMC a number of years ago, but will always have a place in my heart for Methodism. That being said, I am very saddened to hear where the UMC is going today and I know without a doubt that I would be encouraging my congregation to disaffiliate if I were in their pulpit today. However, I would likely take it one step further and recommend that my congregation go independent of any denomination.
Nice video Rob but after the UMC broke every rule for the last 50 years the GMC people or the conservatives are forced to do 100 times more work to change . It’s more work than I care to do so I’ll just have to look elsewhere
If most of the Methodist Church remains true to historic, Biblical teaching then why do you have to leave rather than expel those who are abandoning Methodist doctrine? Also, from a marketing standpoint, if you DO plan to hold on to Biblical teaching, do not choose the word "global." I don't meant to sound cynical, but we are living in crazy times. That is a favored word among progressives. The progressive church keeps the traditional name, but the traditional church chooses a progressive name? By choosing the word "global" it sounds like a ruse. An attempt to bring confusion as a means to decieve and continue promoting progressive ideas to conservative congregations. I have family sitting under the teaching of the progessive Methodist church, which at times is just straight up heresy. It no longer resembles anthing like the Gospel of Jesus. In fact, His name is seldom mentioned, save maybe Easter.
I cringed when I heard Global Methodist Church a few months back. I thought the same thing. Global gives the impression of so call progressive. The liberal sect should embrace the global term.
Proof Eucharist is body of Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary is his mother. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;z 50this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”a 52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?” 53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” Eucharistic miracle.. th-cam.com/video/soCkftBBsBo/w-d-xo.html (medical reports-living heart tissue, blood type AB) th-cam.com/video/oogJ-cdi7yI/w-d-xo.html (Rome Reports) th-cam.com/video/whbzLYi7cyc/w-d-xo.html (Lanciano) th-cam.com/video/6PJ8BORx1p8/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/bd16tBRbLXw/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/PvxTDAVypxs/w-d-xo.html (levitating eucharist) Incorruptible bodies of saints due to the Eucharist - only happens in the Catholic church. No other religion has this miracle th-cam.com/video/GSCk0qs-2-M/w-d-xo.html (Padre Pio) th-cam.com/video/40UZLnIdplo/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jN4SvtRje2I/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/-TrR1CEWdbc/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/XCDBekAQ-FI/w-d-xo.html (Carlo Acutis) th-cam.com/video/33vlkJh2iJc/w-d-xo.html Apparition of Virgin Mary th-cam.com/video/GQnKS7YUE7Q/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary apparition in Ivory Coast) th-cam.com/video/0PPGuMmn6TQ/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary statue moving) th-cam.com/video/tVU8bhbQInw/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary apparition in Egypt) th-cam.com/video/nMEWxRB-1dc/w-d-xo.html 1968 Egypt th-cam.com/video/8YR6INkTK7Q/w-d-xo.html (Miracle of the sun) th-cam.com/video/yF0_ysUivxE/w-d-xo.html (Miracle of the sun) th-cam.com/video/76qAMB3qUpA/w-d-xo.html Medjugorje Sun miracle on Easter Sunday th-cam.com/video/RyYNIulxIbc/w-d-xo.html Virgin Mary appears in Egypt & Spain-Eye Witnesses
You folks in the Methodist Church are facing the exact same issues as are playing out in the Adventist churches around the world right now. God is preparing an obedient people for His soon return...may we all look to His Word for help to reveal His character to the world at large. May God bless your ministry.
Sorry to hear about the battle in the Adventist church. We will be praying for your churches as well.
Thank you Rev. Renfroe. We are with you here in Bay St Louis, Mississippi.
I find it interesting that comments are turned on on Rob Renfroe’s videos but not Adam Hamilton’s “rebuttal” videos.
Yes, I noticed the same thing. I hope the critical voices below have noticed and thought about this.
I grew up attending the Methodist church from the late 1950s into the late 1970s and I agree that it is no longer ideologically the same institution as when it was originally founded. In 1978 I voted with about half of the congregation to separate from the Methodist denomination because of ongoing compromises to its tenets and values. Today, I see many small community churches of all denominations dying because they have failed in attracting young people because they have become worldly.
Thank you ! I began my life in a Methodist foundling home in Teajon Korea at 3 months old in 1952 during the Korean War. Unwanted because I was 1/2 Korean and 1/2 American GI, my Jesus kept me in the palm of His hand- holding me close. Methodist missionaries in that home, fed me (with what little food and milk was available), and loved on me; and then let me go at 18 months to my new adoptive parents, who were also American missionaries during the war serving with the YMCA.
I was taken to my new adoptive parents' home in Pusan, Korea from Teajon by Thelma Maw, another Methodist missionary stationed in Korea during the war.
My parents brought me to America in 1955, I became an Amererican citizen, was raised in the Methodist church, and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior at 16 years old at YMCA camp. My father guided me to that decision, and I was honored at that time to have him tie my YMCA first Blue Raggers knot.
I have always known throughout my 70 years, that it is Jesus who has guided and protected me by His love and grace.
In the 70's I watched as my father became embedded in the Jesus Seminar movement that was becoming prevalent at that time in the Methodist church. From that time on, I watched on the sidelines as both parents were increasingly radicalized by the theological humanism taking over not only the Methodists, but most of the mainline churches. The sexuality issues in my parents lives with regard the church occured in the early 90's, when my younger brother " came out ". During those years I remember my father and brother having very volatile arguments ( even though I no longer lived at home).
My parents eventually gave in, finding solace (I feel) in the acceptance of homosexuality by the mainstream churches.
I don't claim to judge others as my own walk has been less than perfect in God's eyes, but rather choose to ask Him for forgiveness daily.
How blessed I have been throughout my life by God's immense love and grace, and how wonderful to have Jesus as my Lord and Savior and precious friend.
Sadly, the immense strain on my father of my brothers death from HIV, contributed to his heart attack and passing only 2 weeks after my brother.
I am grateful to God that he gave me the opportunity to help bring my brother back to the Lord in the last weeks before his passing. I would play my guitar and sing worship songs to him in the evenings by his bedside ( he was on a ventilator). On the last evening before he fell into a permanent coma, we prayed the sinners prayer together and I asked him to accept Jesus back into his life. He lovingly squeezed my hand, and I knew then that he would be ok! He passed a few days later.
Jesus did not condemn the woman at the well, nor did he accept her lifestyle. He lovingly said " go and sin no more".
We as Jesus' church must exemplify this true love in our daily walk, always aware and discerning of false teachings disguised as " wolves in sheep's clothing", yet with the compassion of Jesus to reach out to those who are hurting, alone, and abandoned; always caring for the lost and least of these.
Wonderful testimony to God's grace and his power to save through the miraculous birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord. God Bless You!
Craig, thank you for sharing. It is very touching. Sadly, many of today's wolves don't feel the need to put on the sheep's clothing anymore.
I'm very grateful to hear your story and for your faithfulness to our Lord Jesus. God bless you.
Craig, contrary to popular belief, you DO NOT have to ask for daily forgiveness, because Christ has already forgiven you, that's the beauty of grace, our past, present and future sins are forgiven. That doesn't mean you can live anyway you want to in sin, the idea is to walk worthy of that salvation. Our salvation is not license to sin, but license NOT to sin, do you see the difference. Methodism and religion tells people they must constantly ask for foegiveness, which gives the idea you can lose your salvation and we must do something to earn it.
go and sin no more. everyone passes that right up. we all sin but we shouldn't keep repeating it. we should repent. ask for forgiveness. not lead others into our sins whatever they may be
Thank you for reaching out to our churches with these truths.
I left the Methodist church 30 years ago when my senior pastor condoned an assistant pastor living with his girlfriend and told a group of teenage girls abortion is a private matter between a woman and her physician. More recently I heard a Methodist pastor repeatedly say "this is where I don't agree with scripture" and turn a Biblical spiritual truth into a socialist parable, namely, the 5 wise virgins should have shared their excess lamp oil with the 5 foolish virgins. There is a pastor in Fort Worth who purchases advertising space in the newspaper where he weekly blasphemes and misinterprets scripture. So no, this is not a matter of sexuality but of dismissal of the truth of God’s inerrant words and a turn allowing culture, not the Bible, to shape the church.
I’m a Baptist worried about the direction of the Methodist church. This is so encouraging to see to help congregants understand and adhere to biblical truth. Keep up the good work pastor.
Typical Baptist Get the beam out of your own eye first before you worry about everyone else Mt. 7:5
Christ Jesus never taught “Do not judge” He taught to not judge hypocritically. Read the complete chapter. The bible requires reading skills. Chapter 7
Also it’s not judgement when you’re cautioning against heresy.
For me, the Bible speaks to me as is seems it spoke to the early Gnostics. What of early church fathers condemning any other way than their own interpretation and disciplines as heresy? For me, it seems the gnostics focused on the spiritual teachings of Jesus more so than the physical life. To me, that is more inline with what Jesus asks followers to do. Following Jesus’s teachings does not have to be church approved. Is the condemnation of a certain understanding or relationship with Jesus Christ as heresy not self-righteousness in itself? What if what is claimed as heresy today is a more pure attainment of a relationship with Christ? Heresy is a term that could be weaponized against pure teachings even. Paul in Acts says
“But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:”
@@jasontune8789 Sad
My husband and I left the UMC in 2014 for this reason. Our local UMC is just now deciding to leave the conference for these very statements. We knew back then this was going on and we could not condone it. We now go to a home fellowship. We read the Bible and believe it all. Sherry
Thank you, Rob, for putting these together.
Thanks, brother.
Praying for the church of my youth. This division is appearing in all Christian traditions as western culture continues to fray. An Enemy did this.
This is what I believe also. There is a much larger nefarious power involved which seeks to divide and conquer. But try and get others to see this. God help us.
Hi Elizabeth A ... I just ready your wonderful comment,you sound great
Definitely an infiltration of the higher ranks...but by what organization?
This is such a bummer! I fled from “my” church, the Episcopal Church, over its capitulation to the so called liberals. I’ve struggled trying to reconcile myself to Catholicism, because that church is holding the line, so to speak. Now, I’ve recently joined my local UMC, only to discover what a mess it’s in. In my UMC church, no one seems willing to even discuss these problems. I have no idea which way they may go in this impending split. I’m an old guy, soon to be shuffling off this mortal plane. So, I guess it really isn’t my problem. But, I find it so disappointing.
vegasgeorge-I am sorry that you have experienced disappointment in so many faiths. But I will tell you it may not be your problem but I want to leave a strong, foundational church where the Bible and God's love for us serves as guidance for our coming generations. We worship God, but we hold each other up for Him. So know that you are oved, He is still in control, and we are all pilgrims on our journey. May He continue to bless you and He will not disappoint you.
I would suggest not the Catholic church.. they focus too much on tradition than Scripture.. i left the Catholic church when i started to study the Bible & found many discrepencies regarding "requirements for salvation" and what they insisted, if you DIDNT do, you would go to hell for. But thats just what i have learned over the decades.
Oh, and i also left the United Methodist church when they chose the world & society over God & His Word..
This mess began in 1968. It's not just the sex thing. I call the UMC in my town the "United Methodist Club" today. And they don't discuss the split (not even during coffee & donuts) because they rotate preachers so much you never get to have the same one long enough to get involved.
@@idaalexander7449 exactly!!
Thank you for this series. We are going through this at our church and it is deeply concerning. I appreciate the sounds teaching!
We are reviewing this along with Adam Hamilton's view on why he is staying with the Methodist church, the other side of the coin, both with love and concern.
I foresee a similar thing happening in the uk. The vote by Conference on same sex marriage makes it inevitable. Thank you for outlining the crucial issues so clearly and simply.
Thank you for doing this series.
God bless you, Samuel.
This is so sad…. I’m 66 and was born into the Methodist Church. I think my grandparents would die if they knew this was happening to their beloved, little country church. I know God is saddened and extremely angry with all things happening in our world right now …. !
Sadly, sexuality is the primary issue pushing the division, though most conservative UMC pastors will deny that. I am currently a member of a UMC with a conservative, narcissistic, lying pastor whose bullying has led to over 50% of the active members to leave. I have known of three UMC pastors who had extra marital affairs with church members, two of whom divorced their wives, married their lovers, and continued to pastor churches. Though I am not sure what a "practicing" homosexual is, I believe that a homosexual pastor who is not a lying narcissist having extramarital affairs and divorcing their spouse would be more effective in bringing people to Christ than those other pastors I have known.
Something I think could do more good within the UMC than deal with the sexuality issue is to deal with motivating and energizing the ranks of Pastors, Superintendents, and the Bishops. Too many laissez faire attitudes, unmotivated, lack of creative visions is the reason the UMC is in a major decline while those Evangelical type churches are growing ... and its not all about their theology differences, instead its motivation. Get out in the community, talk to people, invite them to church, think of new ways to create vigor in the Church ... its not just read a Sermon for a couple services on Sunday and do your own thing the other 6 days a week. Total commitment and involvement is needed, we pay you very well, free parsonage, and other perks, do your job, Methodism is declining..
As you say, we have many more problems than how to handle the issue of homosexuality. I've known of similar instances, some by traditionalists and some by liberals, and the response has been close to what you have described. Yes, a problem with these pastors but more importantly with their bishops who allowed them to stay in ministry. I'm sorry that you have had so many terrible experiences with the UMC.
The church leaders should have used church discipline on those Pastors that were divorcing their wives and running around. Right there it showed people being lukewarm not standing for what is right in God's church.
No way ! Not true.
The gay life is in world of it science, but when coming into a UMC Church ,it s not to change the church but be changed by repenting of one s sin and turning to go the other direction guided by The Bible, and Rules of the Church ..
Excellent series on the UMC split. Our church is in the discernment process and there is much to glean from your videos.
The Wesleyan Church is the proper name for where i need to be- however, I would love to get together & form exactly just that- please let's pray & do this! Im in wisconsin & Jesus can see us through this!
The breaking point for me came about 20 years ago when new Bibles arrived at our church that contained several pages in the preface apologizing for the "masculine biases" of language in previous editions of the Bible. There in nothing in the Bible that needs to be apologized for!
Our small town UMC church would never 'rock the boat' in protest and sadly as the split occurs will probably go along with the UMC if for only the sake not causing 'trouble'
Thank You for putting these together, I now have a better understanding of the issues. My Grandfather Philip Embury built the first Methodist Church in Manhattan, he was also the first preacher.
Thank you, Revered Renfroe, for a simple and clear explanation. I respect and appreciate your opinion.
Thank you so much. I only wish the GMC had been an option in 1970 when the Southern Illinois Conference of the United Methodist Church sent us a pastor who denied every element of the Apostles Creed and added that he was "saved" (using finger gestures) when he was a teenager but gave up all that stuff in seminary. So, when I called the district superintendent, whom I knew since he had been our pastor years before, his only suggestion was that I go fishing with him and become a friend and not be concerned about his theology. That was totally unacceptable, and the entire young adult class resigned from the UMC and planted a Free Methodist church in the same small town in Southern Illinois. Since then, we have moved away and have joined an Independent Baptist Church. So like you, we didn't leave the Methodist Church, but it left us.
No telling how many great people we have lost because many of our preachers don't believe. Whenever we make these claims, centrists tell us that we're making things up. But you and I know differently.
@@robrenfroe8083 de
Thank you, Rob, for these exceedingly helpful and encouraging videos. I watched them all this morning and will share them with church members and friends. In the last video, I was in tears alongside you, reflecting on the strong tower of witnesses you named who have cast a vision and long shadow for us to follow. I, too, think of those ancients mentioned in Hebrews 11 who, by faith, embraced things that they were not able to hold in their hands, but could hold, by faith, in their hearts. The long view. We are standing somewhere in between... the visioning and the tangible. How grateful I am for the broad shoulders of the saints on which we are standing, believing that what is ahead is far greater... better than our current wrestlings. We'll get there... one faith-filled, obedient step at a time. Walk on in strength, pilgrims. The best is truly yet to be. Shalom. Peace for the journey.
Thank you, Elaine, I'm glad you found them helpful. I am always mindful of and grateful for those who went before us.
@@robrenfroe8083 Hello, sir. Do you have an email address? I'd like to request some guidance from you.
@@geetarrob6199 DM me and I will send it to you.
Hi Elaine... I just ready your wonderful comment,you sound great
It doesn’t sound like an amicable separation. It seems those wanting to be more permissive should feel free to form their own beliefs. Basically I’ve got to give up on the church that I e believed. That’s unfair part. That should be their place to move on
Thank you so much for this information. I am grateful.
Hi Jeannie B Moore ... I just ready your wonderful comment,you sound great
Thank you for this video.
Thanks for choosing the Biblical way and explaining this issue.
God bless you, Delona.
Hi Delona Novak... I just ready your wonderful comment,you sound great
Thank you for sharing this video. Our UMC has begun the discernment process.
Thank you Rob for sharing in this video series. So many people think the split is only about sexuality. Many conservative pastors don't realize the basics of what is going on with the split.
Sexuality is a key factor. I made an honest effort to hear from the Liberals. They simply say scripture has been misinterpreted. The soon to be new Bishop for North Ga made it very clear she did not “feel” homosexuality wS a sin and she would marry and ordain them. Well good luck, Sister.
Thank you for doing these videos.
Glad you found them worthwhile.
how proud i am of you and your firm loving explanation of the church
Hi Rachel Fulton... I just ready your wonderful comment,you sound great
God bless you for staying true to the faith
Hi Sandra Jones ... I just ready your wonderful comment,you sound great
Reality is that all Christian Churches are now going through these "Changes".......
I have need of but one teacher & that is the Holy Spirit of God. I believe in Jesus & love & the Bible as revealed by God's Holy Spirit. I will remain with United Methodist because I believe that is where God can use me most. I will be still & hear my Savior. Wesley is not my savior or teacher although I will weigh his words along with others while remaining in constant prayer as always. It may be very dangerous to our Christian faith to completely deny that we should not be constantly learning. These are my thoughts as searched out in the quiet of my soul.
The church is not dividing. A small subset is choosing to leave. Others of us are choosing to honor our membership vows and remain within the United Methodist Church. I personally believe that the blood of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ covers our sins. Yes, he told the woman at the well to sin no more. But, not everyone is perfect and he did accept her until she learned better. There is the adulter who is divorced, remarried and living openly in adultery. There are unmarried couples of all ages who are living together and unwed mothers (and fathers) attending church. There are domestic violence abusers who sit next to their victim on Sunday morning. Yet, I'm hearing crickets from the GMC about these issues. Are you?
Pastor, these are a really good set of videos and really make the case. Where you ever a lawyer? In fact, they are the best videos I have seen related to the UMC divide. I have been looking for something as good from the other side but have come up with nothing so far that even comes close.
I did not realize that Rev. Renfroe was my cousin! Col Samuel Doak McMahan was my three times grandfather! My family has been part of the Texas Annual Conference since its beginnings. I am a sixth-generation Methodist preacher. So our roots are similar. However, I must disagree with Rev. Renfroe's summary of the remaining United Methodists. I plan to remain United Methodist; however, I believe in the divinity of Jesus. I affirm the primacy of scripture. I believe that salvation is received by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Amen!! Keep standing on the WORD OF GOD and do NOT be moved!! Hallelujah, Jesus!! Acts 2:38
Thank you!
Our United Methodist is thriving because we have stuck to our mission and the gospel of Jesus. So sad that a few want to only focus on division instead of the mission of making disciples.
What now will certainly change when they change the Doctrine, be weary evil is alive in not following God's word in leadership of the Church.
I am a Christ Follower in a Methodist Church that took Methodist out of its name, and our congregation will soon vote on where we go next. Thank you for making these six explanations of differences between Christ followers and self-followers. If there is no accountability in a governed denomination, then why have a denomination. Thanks for making God, the Bible, Jesus, sexuality, tradition, and denominational conflicts clear. Blessings to you from SC TX.
Rob Renfroe was my pastor at Mission Bend UMC in 1994 during a very difficult time in my life. Although I left UMC shortly thereafter, I always had great respect for him. My sister has been grappling with leaving UMC and recently made her decision to leave. Watching this vid only gives me even more respect for Rob. My prayers are with you all.
I have a friend who has a problem that has hurt many ladies; not physically but mentally & emotionally. He had the love them & leave them pattern to his life. After wrestling with this problem for many years but never giving up on repentance & praying for God's help. He really regretted whom he had hurt. The way he dealt with this was to have no close relationships with women that he might hurt. He seems to have many lady friends but never let's them get close enough to get hurt in a relationship. It is a lonely life for him I'm sure, but he loves Jesus first & foremost & we are called to love one another not hurt one another. He knows it's wrong to hurt, so he looks for ways to heal rather than hurt although he suffers from being alone. But he knows as Christians we are often called to suffer for our faith. But he tells me he is content in giving love. The same is true for any problem we may have. If what we do or how we act has hurt others we need to turn from our wicked ways...pray & search. God's Spirit for a way to love rather than hurt. This applies to someone who chooses to kill others or someone who is hurting others through being gay. It is something we search out through much prayer, study & possibly fasting. If no one has been hurt then our spirit should be at peace even if we are giving up something that is a psychological defect that is a longing of habit.
However, some things are personal us & God & possibly a few select people such as our pastor. We should not make them public in the church community if it will cause hurt to God's family.
Amen, Rev. Renfroe.
As always, Logical, compassionate, and polite. Thanks for all you do, Rob!!!
Thanks, Larry.
Compassionate? I do not think so!
@@markricker8951
Justify your logic, Mark. I know him
It's highly illogical to suggest that homosexuality is a greater degree of sin than any other human, flesh-based activity. It's not wrong to admit that gay people live in sin...but so do straight people. This concept of "straight superiority" is DEEPLY flawed, theologically, and God will most certainly "sort out" those churches who claim that "straight is the only way"...and not Christ. The essence of Christ is not based on sexual orientation, and that how ALL healthy churches must proceed when crafting their dogma.
Thanks, Captain Obvious on sin being sin. But like it or not, as a whole, there is a superior aspect. Your lame - and it is lame - attempt disregards the fact that Procreation is a far greater responsibility. The Gospel of Ricker wants to blend Christ into a situation that justifies sex and only sex. Be fruitful and multiply distilled it the best. It keeps the earth moving. Too bad you can’t see the superiority of that.
His ancestor would be proud of his stand.
I'm perplexed that so often those wanting to stay true to God's word are then ones going off to become the "new" version of the old faith. And so often those who are "progressive" do not "progress" but are the ones allowed to stay under the old name, etc. I'm not Methodist, just seeing that this happens again and again.
Before the announcement of the next General conference being postponed , anticipation of more imminent. has maybe been the reason for the rush to such drastic.measjres in leaving The UMC .which as it turns out the postponement allows for more time for prayer for The traditional.UMC
.
Thank you so much for the explanation, What is your plan for United Methodist Churches in Africa which want to join GMC? There is need for more explanations about whats going on to many pastors in Uganda and South Sudan.
I have been encouraged by this very well presented explanation of the internal controversies that have negatively affected the mission of the UMC. We left the UMC in 2018 because of the confusion and the apostasy that has been pushed by the leadership that has turned its back on the Gospel of our Lord.
I thank God that there exists true, leaders in the church who have stepped up to defend the traditional values of the Gospel in the face of such fierce and unholy opposition. Blessings on you and you efforts tho salvage the church from the coming judgement of God.
Taking a stand for the truth doesn't have to be mean spirited. Truth is truth and God is not going to change His mind about sin. He had to provide a redemption plan because of sin. Romans chapter 1 is not confusing. All anyone needs to do is read this chapter with child like faith and trust God's word to mean exactly what it says. These scriptures are self explanatory, they really are easy to understand. God hates all sin, period.
Rob, I am a member of The Woodlands Methodists Church. We are at our second home in Cocoa Beach, FL. Our local Methodist Church in Flda has decided not to have and discussions or debate, so they will be a part of the changed United Methodist Church. Is there a website to find a local Disafiliated Methodist Church. Thanks, Bob
Great explanation
The Wesley family would be sick.
Search for the old paths and don’t let this world or those to the left change u
Where can I find the United Methodist global Church in my community?
Amen
The authority of the Scriptures is the issue.
All I have to do and think is all about Jesus! All else I will know in the end! My UMC has a book of disciplines which says Gay marriage and ordination is forbidden. I have my thoughts about it but I keep them to myself. God’s will be done!
I have recently come to the understanding that the Lord is my shepherd. I'm not the shepherd. If I continue to be the shepherd then it will be flawed. If I realize the Lord is my shepherd and he stays the shepherd, then I as a man won't stray and mess things up for my life. This can be applied to the church as a whole body. All churches need to realize the Lord is the shepherd of the church. When man starts to put in their ideas and their views on things it becomes man-led Church. Man kind is not the shepherd the Lord is.
My UMC in central Michigan is voting soon whether we split.
The Gospel.
1 Corinthians 15:3-8:
"3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, that
CHRIST died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and that HE was buried, and that HE rose again the third day according to the Scriptures;
and that HE was seen by Cephas, then by the Twelve. Afterward HE was seen by over five hundred brothers at once, of whom the greater part remain until this present day, but also some fell asleep.
Afterward HE was seen by James, then by all the apostles. And last of all HE was seen by me also, as one born out of time."
THE GOSPEL IS ALL ABOUT CHRIST.
All it takes is a little leaven to leaven the whole lump.
I don't believe we are going to be in heaven because we follow a denomination; it is by faithfulness and obedience to the Word of God.
Once a compromise enters, another one will eventaully follow. I can't find a church that doesn't appear to have some worldly influence and looking to find a way to bring in the next big thing in the secualr mindset.
I am a Christian. No denominational affiliation. Just a Christ follower.
This was interesting.
Pastor Daniel said yesterday, the pastor's can leave the church without the building.
Our church will be splitting soon . Me and my husband will be leaving the united methodist church
Yesterday pastor Daniel of the UMC Church said we're a liberal Church.
Leviticus 18:22. Words directly from Yahweh.
Excellent Summary of Facts, Brother!
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
Shameful so many "Christians" choose to follow the old testament, verse 37, and ignore the words of Christ, verse 39.
verse 39. These words of Christ are also from the old testament. Lev:19v18. The unique words of Christ is v40-clearly succinctly summarizing the entirety of the Old Testament Law.
my church has left the UMC and joined the Free Methodist church.
I just looked up MISS PENNY COST. THIS ACTUALLY MADE MY STOMACH HURT. The circus has come to the UMC.
When anything goes, Everybody leaves.
Why belong to a religion that accepts any behavior? The world already does that.
It just becomes a social club. Where people are made to feel good. Everything is superficial. No depth to faith or the individual.
They're punishing the members too. I was told that I was outnumbered by the pasture yesterday. The rest of the members at church are woke.
Jesus's ministry is about love, towards God, towards each other, and towards all of creation. That's why the liberal and progressive sides of the Methodist Church have taken the views that they have. They also recognize that human beings change and learn new things about themselves - often for the better - over the many thousands of years that humans have been on this earth.
GOD is the same yesterday; today & forever. Our afflictions as broken people cannot and will never be able to justify the continuation of sinful actions that became more important than trusting in the saving grace we so desperately need through Jesus' sacrifice for our debt. The Umc never shunned the men and woman who would come to worship- but there are biblical truths that are being ignored and instead the desires of the physical flesh have been causing divisions among the folliwers of Christ. We are not to let anyone cause us to sin or lead us from absolute truth. GOD is sad and angry because once again mankind is given so much, yet still puts self first
What we think we know about God is how we've interpreted God's interactions with us in this world. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but the Bible is written by humans and their attempts to understand God. As we humans better understand - over the centuries - about our world and its various inhabitants, so too should humans adjust their understandings about God and the world.
@@toguoppusunggu7003 You are so right that the old & new testaments were written by humans- The old testament is historial truth...the times were when God revealed things to come to faithful servants or to those who he would use to best show His divine nature. He fortold of what would come to be...He revealed that there would be a savior born to create a way to reconcile us to God. A savior who did not want to give us orders, but to lead by example and walk in human form so He would know all our pain, joy, & temptations firsthand and to show us that He would understand. He came to let us know we cannot be perfect but we can receive a gift, He Himself, that would erase our past & give us a new way to live. We cannot buy it...we cannot earn it...we must believe and when we do...our way of living begins to change- we feel a wanting to be the person we were created to be..one with a care & concern for others...a thankfulness for all we have & a sincere desire to give thanks for this gift even though we deserve none of the grace we are so freely given. The new testament contains letters written by those who saw FIRSTHAND the miracles because they walked right alongside Jesus...Absolute truth that never changes- the flesh and physical Earth will age & change...new evils and temptations will present themselves- yet the will of God & the truth of creation remains unchanged and unable to be destroyed!!
No, it has taken its position in direct defiance of God which is why we see overt sexual perversion being openly celebrated on the streets and Church altars draped in the pride flag, despite pride being a sin
Celebrate the world or God
At least own your choice
God isn't your puppy
He does not call sin 'love'
I would like to say I and my UMC have the same core beliefs as you stated. However, I believe Jesus came as a man to earth as an example to love and accept all people into a relationship with Jesus Christ. It’s not our place to judge but to love…that job belongs only to God. Our church invites all people to attend and serve. I personally think Jesus frowns on those who choose to out people because of their sexual preference. Those in my church are some of our best servants.
Our Church has just voted to disaffiliate with the UMC. You speak of love and non-judgement. Our church is open to and welcomes in ALL people as no one is sinless. We are not judging anyone as that is between them and God. However, we cannot expect our Pastor to perform a marriage that God clearly disapproves of in the Bible. We can’t consciously condone and celebrate things that God does not accept simply because they are becoming “norms” in society. God destroyed whole cities in the Bible who had succumbed to “socially acceptable behaviors”. We need to get back to God and His Word. Sadly our world is fast becoming a more sinful social club. It seems as if God is stepping in and waking us up to get back to His Word. God Bless Us All! And God bless this Pastor for helping us to understand what is going on in our churches.
@@jocornell8974 yes, you have all the right thinking- in the days of Jesus walking the Earth- no one was turned away from the unconditional love of Jesus..and as people learn God's word, the real scripture & begin to see sin in their own lives for what it is...they come...repenting....& by the change in heart,& the help of the Holy Spirit , we are new in our thinking, behaving, and serving- We have to remember who we belong to- and that is God- we have to identify as heirs of the kingdom and claim ourselves as children of God- brothers & sisters in Christ. For all time humankind has had a nature of great concern for self...by paying too much attention to self, we start to find ourselves righteous or more righteous than God- the right to change an unchangeable dna structure is not even possible- to think that we "feel" like we need a costume that looks male or is classified as female is not going to change who we are & our value to God. It is good to remember that we are a soul & spirit that has been given a vehicle ( the physical body) to use to get around & carry out God's plan & to show God's love through our abilities while on Earth. We eventually will part with the physical body because it will wear out...but we are so very blessed because our eternal life through Jesus & his act of sacrifice- paid a debt we could never pay on our own- and our true self will live on past this temporary world.
Hi Gayle and peace to you. Are you saying Jesus was simply a man? I ask because the English language can be ambiguous sometimes. Thanks!
Some are.amd some are not leaving ..
He sums this all up very well at the end when he says “…join with like minded people…” My fear for this group is there will be no toleration for critical and sincere searching of scripture by individuals. It will become a separatist denomination of theologically rusted robots. Personally, I can’t be a part of a church whose premise for existence is exclusion. Where is the grace?
“Sound teaching”, “Biblical truth”, “traditional beliefs”. I hear a lot of words spent to say what boils down to nothing but prejudice. There are truths about you friends and neighbors, your sons and daughters, that you are pretending are not true, so that you don’t have to learn or undergo any uncomfortable growth. So that you can pretend your own prejudices are divinely ordained. This hurts real people, and I guarantee it deeply hurts people that you personally purport to love. The GMC is fast-tracking their own irrelevance.
I don't know why you would bother to attack Christianity. Go believe in having meaningless sex and celebrating sexual perversion if that's for you. If the Christians and the Bible are right you'll get to tell God he's a bigot. Until then shut your mouth.
@@barbeeska Seems I struck a nerve. I like how you interpret my attack on prejudice as an attack on Christianity. It just goes to prove my point that this movement to disaffiliate is fueled by ignorant hate. Some people are gay-- that's the way its always been and always will be. Some people you know are sad that they can't be honest with you because they know how you'll react.
You all need God, as in Jesus found in the truth of the Catholic Church.
We left the umc in 2017. The conference made us purchase our bldg back from them. The church burned back in 1978 and was rebuilt by members without a dime from conference. They pushed inc. several years back with the clause they owned all property. Not a Christian organization. Power and money hungry.
We organized as an independent church lead by scripture and biblical principles. We grew from seven to over a 100 christians. We pray for the presence of the Holy Spirit at our worship services and all meetings. God is good and he will Bless obedience to his word.
All Discipline Paragraphs should be, , must be upheld to.keep UMC Tradition..intact for the future . Sadly, by leaving leaves the future of The traditions of The .UMC for future generations on a disturbing path.
I watched and listened to several of your viideos. My ancesters go back to the beginning of Methodism in the colonies, but we long since departed. I heard with interest as you used Wesleyan ideals more or less interchangeable with Christ and him crucified. I ascertained from another source
that GMC is not requiring the property to be owned by the conference. This is probably a more palatable choice for those that have felt so abused by the UMC conference. I applaud that you affirm that the Bible is the heart of our beliefs as Christians and the book is not multiple choice belief system. It is obvious, however, that the GMC as you conceive it is a new repository of the old traditions . As such, it is a gathering of the faithful more than a launching of a new mission, your protestations not withstanding. As Paul pointed out, he wanted even those not in his group to succeed in declaring the good news. May you succeed in doing God's will.
Does the Methodist denomination allow women pastors and elders?
Yes. Allow.. compromise.. I attend one as well. But!!! I understand the Bible is 100% God’s word. Not to be treated like a salad bar. ( picking and choosing what looks good). Also to rightly divide scripture like Paul said in 2nd Timothy 2:15. KJV.
The spirit is not “left”. Global Methodist is inherent with the Wesleyan teachings. What happened to the Creeds being proclaimed in the UMC? This is not a union for same sex love. Roots need restoration for a forward move in holiness.
I just find this whole thing incredibly sad......
UMC Church on MC Cree, Waukegan Illinois
I just wish you would not call the new one Global because it gives me chills along with a Global government and global currency and other global stuff. Wish you change away from the word global.
I thought exactly this with whats going on today.
As what Rev. Rob Renfroe would call a "Centrist", I love how the Pastor wants to try to hide his own biases. "Liberals views are a product of their own time." How about you recognize that you and your views may be a product of YOUR time and upbringing?
You state, "We conservatives don't believe that you can just choose what scriptures you want to follow."
Really? So, you uphold the scripture that says:
"I give this command (from the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife." - 1 Corinithians 10-11. (And this is repeated multiple times by Jesus, also). BUT, I don't see the conservatives in the Methodist church trying to block divorced men and women from remarrying. They are only interested in stopping homosexuals. That sounds like picking scriptures to me.
How about this one?
"The women are to keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak." - 1 Corinthians 14:34. Do you enforce this one? I know you're response, "Well, Paul wrote that because he was a product of his time." You mean the exact same statement that you just threw out about Liberals using. How about that?
How about this one?
"But I tell you, never swear an oath at all...Simply say yes or no because anything beyond that is from the Devil." - Matthew 5:34. But, I keep hearing conservative pastors in the Methodist church say that they "have taken an oath to protect the Book of Discipline." How can you take an oath to follow the book of Discipline if you aren't violating the bible and taking oaths.
I could keep this going all day (and I don't even have to go into the Old Testament). Bad news for you Rev. Renfroe, YOU ARE JUST AS GUILTY OF CHOOSING WHAT SCRIPTURES YOU WANT TO FOLLOW AS THE LIBERALS.
Don't get me wrong, I understand why the Conservative leaders ignore scriptures like 1 Corinthians 10-11 about marriage but want to enforce scriptures on marriage when it come to homosexuality: Because scriptures like 1 Corinthians MIGHT AFFECT YOU! Everyone is always interested in enforcing scriptures that don't affect them. I know lots of GMC supporters who are happy to quote scriptures on homosexuality but conveniently turn a deaf ear when someone quotes the scripture about how they are REQUIRED to tithe 10% of their income (off the top) to God. The hypocrisy is overwhelming.
The thing is, the church has always gone by the priciple of consensus in Biblical interpretation. The latitude of interpretation is laid out in church history. At least Rev. Renfroe can find continuity with the church throughout time and geography. And that is not an interpretation just picking and choosing at whim. Whereas the liberal church can find NO continuity with its interpretation with ANY church or Christian prior to their own invention and utterly on the whim of the spirit of whatever is the pop philosophy of the day.
@@hexahexametermeter The problem with saying the church has "always gone by the consensus of biblical interpretation" based upon continuity is that this philosophy has been the source of ALL evils inside the church. And it DOES allow people to interpret the church according to their own whim.
Over the centuries, the repression of the common people to the "divine rights" of their rulers was a consensus within the church based upon continuity. This was because people chose to focus on the scriptural laws they wanted to hear and IGNORE the ones they didn't want to follow.
The torturing of non-believers/heretics into submission was based upon consensus in the church and continuity of ideas. The repression of women was a consensus within the church based upon the continuity of ideas. Slavery was okay based on a consensus within the church and based on the continuity of ideas.
Again, these were all based upon scriptural interpretations created by people who focused on the scriptures they WANTED to enforce and follow while ignoring laws and scriptures that they DIDN'T want to follow or that might apply to them.
What Rev. Renfroe is doing is no different than the practices listed above. He is defending a consensus within the church based upon a continuity of ideas. However, as I note, these ideas are based on the scriptural interpretations that he WANTS to follow. Meanwhile, he is perfectly comfortable IGNORING other biblical laws that he doesn't want to follow.
It was only the "Liberals" within the church who challenged the traditional scriptural interpretations by focusing on love over the law that overthrew these ideas. If it wasn't for the 'liberal church' challenging long-held consensus's within the church, the above practices would still be taking place.
Freedom from kings and the repressive edicts of tyrannical rulers was once a "pop philosophy" of the day. Not torturing people into practicing your faith was once a "pop philosophy" of the day. Women not being subjugated to men was once a "pop philosophy" of the day. Slavery being evil was a "pop philosophy" of the day. And none of them were supported by consensus with traditional scriptural interpretations.
Your argument has so many holes--where to start? The early church wouldnt bow to Caesar so so much for "divne right". Even Augustine argued slavery was outside of God's will and even when his stance on torture became the accepted policy in places in the west, it wasnt the accepted policy or practice in the east. Really the only criteria you utilize is your own opinion of right and wrong since you cant find any of your modern inventions in scripture or in historical reflection. There is no limit to what could be acceptible in your criteria. We'll see what new things you come up with in the next few decades.
@@hexahexametermeter First of all, I find your reference to “you” amusing since I voted to go GMC for my church’s discernment process and have left to attend a GMC church. My issue isn’t with the GMC. It is with the HYPOCRISY of certain GMC leaders (like Rev. Renfroe) who want to only focus on the scriptures and teachings they like while ignoring those they don’t like. In this way, they (and those who support them) are NO BETTER than the UMC people.
Your response to my post is an excellent example of this:
I noticed you avoided touching upon the topic of the Church’s repression of women. I noticed you avoided touching on the torturing and killing of people who didn’t share Christian viewpoints (which happened even before Christianity become a state religion). You didn’t have a good response to them so you ignored them (the same way Rev. Renfroe and other ignore the scriptures that I brought up in my initial post).
Even the arguments you did make against me were exceptionally weak (which is funny for someone who called mine weak). Your initial post argues that we should rely upon biblical precedents and tradition. Still, when I bring up Precedent and Traditions that lasted for thousands of years, you refer back to times BEFORE precedents even existed and ignore the more than a THOUSAND YEARS of actual precedents and traditions that existed after the creation of the Christian church.
“Divine Right to Rule” is a historical church precedent (founded in the Teachings of Paul) that existed for over a thousand years! You can verify its existence in many early writings! But you try to ignore it by stating that Christians refused to bow to Caesar. Even this statement is FALSE. In fact, many Christians did bow to Caesar, and it was a topic of great debate in the Early Church, with many early Christians arguing that martyrdom was equivalent to suicide and should not be glorified. Many in the early church had no issue with bowing to Caesar (especially in light of Paul’s writings). They felt that they were “Giving to Caesar what is Caesars and giving to God what is God’s,” stating they were members of the Roman Empire so he could have their bodies, but God would keep their souls. This practice still exists when people say the Pledge of Alliance (a violation of Jesus's explicit command to never take oaths.)
The divide in the early church about whether to bow to Caesar demonstrates that there was NO Precedent or Tradition at the time. A Precedent and Tradition wasn’t created until years later. And that precedent was “Divine Right to Rule”.
Your reference to Saint Augustine opposing slavery is just one person’s writings. Hardly a precedent or tradition that supersedes the fact that for over 1000 years after his death, the church would still be condoning slavery. Many even referenced Biblical writings to support it. Paul discussed the responsibility of slaves to their masters and even returned a runaway slave to his master with the request that the master “reaccept him as a slave and forgive him for running away.” The Christian church never outlawed or formally condemned the practice for over a thousand years. You can point to a few random authors here and there, but you can point to a few random authors of any idea anywhere. And their ideas of opposing slavery would have been just as radical as the UMC’s view of permitting homosexual marriage.
Good news
So sad diverse opinions cannot be respected. We all learn from others we disagree with. Unwillingness to coexist is ultimate DISRESPECT.
So, what church did Jesus belong to?
Christ is The Church.
Herod's Temple of Yahweh, Jerusalem
Jesus was Jewish and went to Jewish temples.
Read the scriptures and you'll have your answers. All of you.
I am currently attending a UMC that has elected to disafiliate from the " Organization " because of the rules that the organization has.
Thank you, no. I will abide by the Holy Scriptures. Those are the ONLY rules you need. God bless all.
I was a UM licensed local pastor for 11 years. I left the UMC a number of years ago, but will always have a place in my heart for Methodism. That being said, I am very saddened to hear where the UMC is going today and I know without a doubt that I would be encouraging my congregation to disaffiliate if I were in their pulpit today. However, I would likely take it one step further and recommend that my congregation go independent of any denomination.
One year or more ago
Praise God! I am an Independent Baptist and I applaud you for having deep roots in the Truth.
Nice video Rob but after the UMC broke every rule for the last 50 years the GMC people or the conservatives are forced to do 100 times more work to change . It’s more work than I care to do so I’ll just have to look elsewhere
I'm about join my local Methodist church, it looks like a university lol
If most of the Methodist Church remains true to historic, Biblical teaching then why do you have to leave rather than expel those who are abandoning Methodist doctrine? Also, from a marketing standpoint, if you DO plan to hold on to Biblical teaching, do not choose the word "global." I don't meant to sound cynical, but we are living in crazy times. That is a favored word among progressives. The progressive church keeps the traditional name, but the traditional church chooses a progressive name? By choosing the word "global" it sounds like a ruse. An attempt to bring confusion as a means to decieve and continue promoting progressive ideas to conservative congregations. I have family sitting under the teaching of the progessive Methodist church, which at times is just straight up heresy. It no longer resembles anthing like the Gospel of Jesus. In fact, His name is seldom mentioned, save maybe Easter.
I cringed when I heard Global Methodist Church a few months back. I thought the same thing. Global gives the impression of so call progressive. The liberal sect should embrace the global term.
Global is to include the huge number of conservative Methodists in Africa and Asia, as well as other countries.
That's easy: Hierarchical control of the church.
Proof Eucharist is body of Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary is his mother.
48I am the bread of life.
49Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;z
50this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”a
52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?”
53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b
58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
Eucharistic miracle..
th-cam.com/video/soCkftBBsBo/w-d-xo.html (medical reports-living heart tissue, blood type AB)
th-cam.com/video/oogJ-cdi7yI/w-d-xo.html (Rome Reports)
th-cam.com/video/whbzLYi7cyc/w-d-xo.html (Lanciano)
th-cam.com/video/6PJ8BORx1p8/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/bd16tBRbLXw/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/PvxTDAVypxs/w-d-xo.html (levitating eucharist)
Incorruptible bodies of saints due to the Eucharist - only happens in the Catholic church. No other religion has this miracle
th-cam.com/video/GSCk0qs-2-M/w-d-xo.html (Padre Pio)
th-cam.com/video/40UZLnIdplo/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jN4SvtRje2I/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/-TrR1CEWdbc/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/XCDBekAQ-FI/w-d-xo.html (Carlo Acutis)
th-cam.com/video/33vlkJh2iJc/w-d-xo.html
Apparition of Virgin Mary
th-cam.com/video/GQnKS7YUE7Q/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary apparition in Ivory Coast)
th-cam.com/video/0PPGuMmn6TQ/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary statue moving)
th-cam.com/video/tVU8bhbQInw/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary apparition in Egypt)
th-cam.com/video/nMEWxRB-1dc/w-d-xo.html 1968 Egypt
th-cam.com/video/8YR6INkTK7Q/w-d-xo.html (Miracle of the sun)
th-cam.com/video/yF0_ysUivxE/w-d-xo.html (Miracle of the sun)
th-cam.com/video/76qAMB3qUpA/w-d-xo.html Medjugorje Sun miracle on Easter Sunday
th-cam.com/video/RyYNIulxIbc/w-d-xo.html Virgin Mary appears in Egypt & Spain-Eye Witnesses
Just be very sure, that you are telling the truth. God know when we do not tell the truth.