You can do small prostrations. But not bend your knees. Small prostrations are a very pious gesture of reverance. To bow down till you touch the ground.
My dean Priest and spiritual Farther who serves under him instructs us not to bow or prostrate in anyway on Sunday. Listen to your Priest. Thank you your Emminence for your teaching.
I disagree to a point. If hes making you act blasphemously then yes of course. But obedience to your spiritual Farther and therefore the church is very important. You will not be judged for any false practices you commit under the church and spiritual Farther. It is their burden at Judgment. That is why its common to say we are under his protection.@@alexpanagiotis4706
And then? Start agreeing or disagreeing with everything that happens in their parish? There is no need for a lay person to read the canons of the church, the only need a lay person has is to do obedience to a spiritual father. We do not have to know everything, but learn to trust
@@rwbrouwer I agree with your sentiment, but to your point, I have been to Greek Orthodox churches who have kneeling pads installed in their pews, and kneel on Sundays during the communion prayers. Meaning the clergy themselves have instituted this. Obedience and blind obedience are not the same thing.
My parish has a few people who kneel or even prostrate during this time in the Liturgy on Sunday. I always think of this. Thank you for this video. 🙏🏻☦️
The Holy Canons and Holy Tradition also say that we ARE STANDING DURING PRAYER. Also in the early Church the penintents WHERE KNEELING IN THE NARTEX ALL DAYS
Beautifully put. We often hear "intent is everything" and that is certainly true, but a direct commandment is precisely that -- it is not about what we want, it's about what we're commanded to do.
Yes , and we in the western world, in particular, have lived individualistic lives, especially prtnsts, so to bow before authorities who must bear the weight of their decisions goes very much against their grain. So be it.. Dear Bishop Irenei says these words so beautifully, doesn't he ?
Most people in our church do kneel on Sundays but I, and a few others do not. After sundown I think it's acceptable because it would then be Monday if I understand correctly.
Very long explanation for a very short direction. From the first Nicene council! It says on Sunday Jesus stood up again, so we stand up. It bears witness to the resurrection. Nothing complicated.
I think this is one of those areas where it’s been forgotten or has become unclear. I spent time in Russia last year and a few people prostrated during the epiclesis there as well
Why do we sing “come let us worship and fall down before Christ or King and our God”on Sunday? At one time we did penance by kneeling for the entire liturgy and with Sunday being a time of joy and celebration of the Resurection it would make sense to forbid it. But to forbid prostration to glorify and give thanks on Sunday seems to forbid worship.
If you do prostrations during weekdays and attend weekday services there is no need to.prostrate on Sundays. But for those who only attend the Sunday Liturgy
I attend a Western Antiochian church, and we kneel during a portion of the Liturgy (St. Tikhon), including the preparation of the Eucharist. I've visited several Eastern Orthodox churches over the years and don't remember any point except sometimes during Great Lent where the congregation kneels. Very interesting to hear that kneeling isn't necessarily allowed by the Church.
Kneeling during the Divine Liturgy is not what is prohibited, it is kneeling on a Sunday - the day of the Lord's Resurrection! So, this is just pertaining to Sunday Liturgies specifically.
Well said Vladyka! Sad that some here try rationalize why the traditional teaching of the Church doesn't interpret the canon properly, or how their local practice is above above it.
Our priest (OCA) makes a prostration before Christ in the body and blood before communing. So, so do I when he brings out Christ in the cup. When he stops, so will I.
@DANtheMANofSIPA for my son who serves under direction of the priest does as is told, but is not ignorant of why, when and where! When other priests or the Bishop serves, the kneeling all of a sudden stops. Lol! Glory to God! P.s. the only problem is that when some kneel and more don't, it shows a confusion and disorder...follow the faith folks, not the whims of the newly ordained.
0:48 Thanks for bringing this up, too many get focused on TH-cam Orthodoxy and dont realize every parish is at its own individual practice for many traditions. Church lifts people up, it isnt a bar forcing everyone to be at a specific level
We kneel on Sunday only when the transformation to blood and body occurs . This is not really " kneel" of repentance it is like bow in front of a king , with joy and respect, honouring Christ as our lord and king who is standing right in front of us at this point. Imagine if god is in front of you at this point , we all feel the need to bow/ kneel from respect so I think this is not what the canon meant .Fathers wrote it at a time that people were kneeling all the time during the services, and participated in multiple times in litouegies during the week etc so it would be overwhelming if they kneel also on Sundays. But today fath has faded away and there is no humility, no frequent participation to other holy litouegies on weekdays apart on Sundays . On top of it those who do not kneel on Sunday , do not even kneel during weekdays litourgies either. " because they generally do not feel like it . Kneeling only when the transformation occurs ,is not about disobedience and that is why there is no punishment referred to this canon . It was stated for keeping good order in a crowded Sunday church . I think that a black or white interpretation is out of the historical and cultural context, both at the time and now.
According to the cannons of the church.... Kneeling is prohibited on the Lord's day(Sunday)...... APART FROM certain points in the divine liturgy......... It seems that, when the Rudder was translated to English the translator must have missed the section referring to the exceptions, at which point kneeling is allowed on Sundays. This has more than likely created this confusion. I was shown this by my spiritual father recently......
What?!?! 🫨🫨😲😧 I’m Catholic, have been turning toward Orthodox the more I learn… and this is a new one to me. The more I learn and grow to understand of Orthodox I’m often struck by own massive ignorances. I had no idea this was a thing. Or a question. Just like I had no idea that Catholics and Orthodox celebrate Easter at different times. Yet, again, through learning, while I’m almost bowled over by these seemingly huge deferences, the reasons for it all seem to become more instantly understandable. It’s like… What was first “whAaAt woooow” To me, has become “whaaaat, yeah that makes sense. Can’t believe I never thought about it before”
It is in the Holy Canons and Holy Tradition. We stand during prayer on the Lords day because it is the day of the Resurrection. Resurrection means upright. To stand up. Be lifted
But what if I wanna pray from all of my heart kneeling? Sometimes I feel like I want to kneel before God while praying, and then it feels very relieving doing that but this doesn’t refer to any day, what if I feel like that on a Sunday?
In the Western rites of the Orthodox Church there was always kneeling on Sunday, particularly at the Canon of the Mass. Nor should we stop as we are preserving our authentic Orthodox patrimony. When in Rome do as the Romans do, to paraphrase St. Ambrose. As in the East, standing is also the default position of prayer hence the absence of pews for the first 1500 years of worship.
Which is more authoritative: local tradition, or Ecumenical Council? To phrase it another way, if one was in conflict with the other, which would necessitate change?
What about for altar servers and men who serve on Sunday who first enter the altar area? Do they not prostrate before the altar, and then get a blessing from the priest to vest Sunday morning before the Divine Liturgy? My son is an altar server, and I believe this is the routine.
In my personal experience serving at the altar of a Georgian church, we're instructed on Sundays to perform 3 "short" or "minor" prostrations upon entering the Holiest of Holies, where one crosses oneself, and then bends to bring the crossing hand down to touch the floor, or just does a deep bow. I don't know if this is universal practice, just my expirience.
@@fennybenny5649 Yes, those are called "metanias" in Greek. And those are not full prostrations (prostration in this case meaning on your knees and bending to touch your head to the floor)
Thank you for bringing this up. I do not kneel and only one or two others in my parish stand up as well. The question I have always wanted to ask, though, is what do we make of the kneeling service on Pentecost? Is this an "innovation" or has it always been done?
Yes, the prayers at Pentecost are considered to be after the end of Sunday, the Day of Resurrection. So are called the Kneeling Vespers. It seems that many, maybe most, churches serve them either after the Divine Liturgy or later in the day(light) for convenience. But they are deemed to be the end of the day Vespers. I thought of that also.
Why on the Trinity Day on Sunday the long Kneeling prayers are allowed? I believe those are the Vesperal prayers in practice attached to the Liturgy once a year. Is it a special exception?
In the past, they were a Vespers service at the end of the day.. as i understand. For practical convenience in our time they are often after the Divine Liturgy or later at around 3pm or so. But they are deemed to be Vespers leading into the next day. As i understand it. Didn't Bishop Irenei explain this beautifully? Part of keeping the practices of the Church to be consistent. And not subject to individualized opinions..
My thoughts were that it had to do with the influence of Rome and the influx of of converts from the ‘Protestant Churches. At least that was my guess before starting the video. Never to old to learn.
Just a bit of confusion remains: at the Epiclesis, I always see the priest do a prostration in the Altar before the Gifts. Is this also not supposed to be done on Sundays? We all drop with the priest in the altar... could this be a commonly misplaced practice, then? Than you, Vladyka!
According to the cannons of the church.... Kneeling is prohibited on the Lord's day(Sunday)...... APART FROM certain points in the divine liturgy......... It seems that, when the Rudder was translated to English the translator must have missed the section referring to the exceptions, at which point kneeling is allowed on Sundays. This has more than likely created this confusion. I was shown this by my spiritual father recently......
@@alexpanagiotis4706 It's canon 20 of the first council It's page 151(Πηδαλιον ) in the explanation of the cannon a 3rd of the way down, mentions at which stages kneeling is permitted on Sundays and Sunday of Pentecost. It's been omitted in the English translation
@@antonyantony7693 Thank you. I have to look for the term. Proskeynese....or so. Because there are prostrations small and great onces. Great are usually forbidden small are allowed. Kneeling is not common in greek terminology. I will search for it
There is no such thing as discussing the things that the holy fathers of the Church decreed, if you want to know whether you should kneel or not on a Sunday, ask your spiritual father 😊
I feel that if in your heart, you want to kneel before the Lord, you should do so, no matter the day or type of liturgy. In Scripture it says that one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.
There is a lot of logic that comes to Christianity. Rules have reasons in Christianity, everything is done through logic and reason. I'm sort of disappointed to have found out about this no kneeling rule. The only reason I heard in the video is to just be obedient, to do as is commanded. Super weird.
Yes, but it is good and right.. and helps us to become one in mind and dogma and practice, as much as possible. Western individualism doesn't easily accept these Orthodox teachings or understandings. Didn't Bishop Irenei present this beautifully and gently?? As always. My response is to be softened and just say, 'Yes, Vladyka. Thank you.'. As best my own spirit humbles itself.
Context is important in this case. The Ecumenical Councils are the highest authority for church practice and have always been in Christianity for the last 2000 years. Everything stated in those councils has theological explanations and deliberations attached. It is not a "because we said so" instance.
@@NFS0038 amen. And the men in those councils had often, often been persecuted for the Faith. They dared not be ungrounded in their decrees. The tendency to follow our own proclivities is very strong, even in the Church, but let us speak as best we can with one voice and similar minds.
@@johnslick8940 it is listed as number XX (20) of the Holy Canons established in the First Ecumenical Council. Beyond rational debate between the Holy Fathers present, Ecumenical Councils are overseen and given authority by the Holy Spirit just as the Apostles met in the first council in the Book of Acts, beginning "it seemed good to the Holy Spirit". It's not an either-or, or a matter of personal agreement, for Christians. This is the commandment of the Church according to God, the Holy Spirit, Third Person of the Trinity. But feel free to research and read about the deliberations in the Ecumenical Councils, there really is nothing new under the sun that hasn't been thought up at least once and questioned over the last 2000 years. It is true that most Christians don't (and can't, for sake of time) look into every issue that has ever been brought up and elaborated on. For most it really is enough that God said so.
It seems to vary by location. My Antiochian parish does not do this. But there is an Antiochian parish in the North of the state that does, and they also sit at certain times during prayers in the Divine Liturgy, whereas our parish only sits during the Epistle reading and the sermon. So it's not just Greeks practicing this error.
A lot of kneeling in the church has probably also to do with displaying an outward appearance of piety, which is pride, and strange enough the humble thing to do in this case is to stand, not kneel, before God and like the bishop says ‘to do obedience to the holy fathers of the Church’
@asentseto try to avoid the situation. Or humbly move to the rear of the nave, if possible. Either way, it isn't appropriate to make a show. I understand the problem. Been there. Just went with it but would have preferred not to deal with it.
Yes, we live in a highly- individualistic western culture.. Bishop Irenei explains it so well.. He gently gave the right understanding of the behavior we should have. But i do understand the pressures.
@@lindaphillips4646 if they were all kneeling and really focused on God, they shouldn't notice you standing correctly anyway. And if they did, that would be more than one opportunity to "stand corrected"
Give your thoughts below!
You can do small prostrations. But not bend your knees.
Small prostrations are a very pious gesture of reverance. To bow down till you touch the ground.
Κύριε Ιησού Χριστέ, Υιέ Θεού, ελέησόν με τον αμαρτωλόν. αμήν
Amen 🙏
My dean Priest and spiritual Farther who serves under him instructs us not to bow or prostrate in anyway on Sunday. Listen to your Priest. Thank you your Emminence for your teaching.
Does that include small head bows and stuff made during prayer or the sign of the cross?
No we do make bows with the head only during these parts of the liturgy.@@sxmaniac9312
If any priests says anything contrary to the Holy Canons and Holy Tradition do not follow him
I disagree to a point. If hes making you act blasphemously then yes of course. But obedience to your spiritual Farther and therefore the church is very important. You will not be judged for any false practices you commit under the church and spiritual Farther. It is their burden at Judgment. That is why its common to say we are under his protection.@@alexpanagiotis4706
I do not know if its okay if to ask for prayer here my name is Hector if you guys don't mind praying for me
Turning to God with your name on my heart. Please do the same for me and my family!
@@cliffordgeers9835Lord have mercy on you
Mexicangunslinger Lord have mercy on you
Praying now 😊🙏🏻
This is a great reminder for lay people to read the canons of the Church!
And then? Start agreeing or disagreeing with everything that happens in their parish? There is no need for a lay person to read the canons of the church, the only need a lay person has is to do obedience to a spiritual father. We do not have to know everything, but learn to trust
@rwbrouwer I agree with your point but ignorance is not virtuous. Why wouldn't we read them?
@@rwbrouwer I agree with your sentiment, but to your point, I have been to Greek Orthodox churches who have kneeling pads installed in their pews, and kneel on Sundays during the communion prayers. Meaning the clergy themselves have instituted this. Obedience and blind obedience are not the same thing.
@@bensmith8125the canons aren’t for the average lay people to read lol.
@@mollyporium5086 why can't we?
Παναγια Τριας,ελεησον ημας!
☦️ Thank you, Vladyka. As you teach us so graciously and gently. Yes. Thank you.
Thank you father for your explanation, reminder and correction for some of us. Your blessings
what explanation ? he provided no explanation, if you think he did then please, tell me
@@johnslick8940 He mentions the ecumenical councils where it is stated and reaffirmed.
Thank you very much for this lesson. Christ is Lord!
Thanks for clarifying these things for me, so now I know. Amen!
I was taught also to stand but current congregation kneels and I feel weird being the only one standing so I kneel too!
What are we supposed to do I don’t want to scandalize everyone
I stay standing. Same situation.
I’m glad this video has been done to lovingly correct us to stand upright . ☦️💕
My parish has a few people who kneel or even prostrate during this time in the Liturgy on Sunday. I always think of this. Thank you for this video. 🙏🏻☦️
Thank you! I'm very thankful for distinctions such as these in the Tradition of our Church.
You have so many lovely icons!
The Holy Canons and Holy Tradition also say that we ARE STANDING DURING PRAYER.
Also in the early Church the penintents WHERE KNEELING IN THE NARTEX ALL DAYS
Beautifully put. We often hear "intent is everything" and that is certainly true, but a direct commandment is precisely that -- it is not about what we want, it's about what we're commanded to do.
Yes , and we in the western world, in particular, have lived individualistic lives, especially prtnsts, so to bow before authorities who must bear the weight of their decisions goes very much against their grain. So be it..
Dear Bishop Irenei says these words so beautifully, doesn't he ?
I'm Romanian and we kneel during the Holy Lithurgy every time scripture is read. We stand for the rest of the liturgy.
Us to every Sunday.
Thank you dear Vladyka! Pray for me!
Most people in our church do kneel on Sundays but I, and a few others do not. After sundown I think it's acceptable because it would then be Monday if I understand correctly.
You are correct. The new day starts at sundown
THANK YOU!
Very long explanation for a very short direction. From the first Nicene council! It says on Sunday Jesus stood up again, so we stand up. It bears witness to the resurrection. Nothing complicated.
I think this is one of those areas where it’s been forgotten or has become unclear. I spent time in Russia last year and a few people prostrated during the epiclesis there as well
bravo 👏 excellent talk.
Why do we sing “come let us worship and fall down before Christ or King and our God”on Sunday?
At one time we did penance by kneeling for the entire liturgy and with Sunday being a time of joy and celebration of the Resurection it would make sense to forbid it. But to forbid prostration to glorify and give thanks on Sunday seems to forbid worship.
If you do prostrations during weekdays and attend weekday services there is no need to.prostrate on Sundays. But for those who only attend the Sunday Liturgy
I attend a Western Antiochian church, and we kneel during a portion of the Liturgy (St. Tikhon), including the preparation of the Eucharist. I've visited several Eastern Orthodox churches over the years and don't remember any point except sometimes during Great Lent where the congregation kneels. Very interesting to hear that kneeling isn't necessarily allowed by the Church.
Same for my Western Rite Church. We briefly kneel during the creed too. I think the priests and deacons briefly kneel during parts of the liturgy.
Kneeling during the Divine Liturgy is not what is prohibited, it is kneeling on a Sunday - the day of the Lord's Resurrection! So, this is just pertaining to Sunday Liturgies specifically.
@@bmil1816 in the Catholic Latin Rite, every Sunday is nornally kneeled during consecration of eucharist
Same, we kneel for a really long time... When I go to a Greek church, they kneel/postrate for a moment too.
It is both forbidden and required, depending upon the day.
Master, Bless!
Your Eminence, I am then confused as to why those in the Western Rite kneel on Sundays
Well said Vladyka! Sad that some here try rationalize why the traditional teaching of the Church doesn't interpret the canon properly, or how their local practice is above above it.
Our priest (OCA) makes a prostration before Christ in the body and blood before communing. So, so do I when he brings out Christ in the cup. When he stops, so will I.
i always make prostrations when the chalice comes out. i have no intention of stopping
Just one of several tolerated errors! For sure, we don't know more than the holy fathers do...let's be obedient folks!
@@sifu9683They should be obedient to their priest
@DANtheMANofSIPA for my son who serves under direction of the priest does as is told, but is not ignorant of why, when and where! When other priests or the Bishop serves, the kneeling all of a sudden stops. Lol! Glory to God! P.s. the only problem is that when some kneel and more don't, it shows a confusion and disorder...follow the faith folks, not the whims of the newly ordained.
0:48 Thanks for bringing this up, too many get focused on TH-cam Orthodoxy and dont realize every parish is at its own individual practice for many traditions.
Church lifts people up, it isnt a bar forcing everyone to be at a specific level
We kneel on Sunday only when the transformation to blood and body occurs . This is not really " kneel" of repentance it is like bow in front of a king , with joy and respect, honouring Christ as our lord and king who is standing right in front of us at this point. Imagine if god is in front of you at this point , we all feel the need to bow/ kneel from respect so I think this is not what the canon meant .Fathers wrote it at a time that people were kneeling all the time during the services, and participated in multiple times in litouegies during the week etc so it would be overwhelming if they kneel also on Sundays. But today fath has faded away and there is no humility, no frequent participation to other holy litouegies on weekdays apart on Sundays . On top of it those who do not kneel on Sunday , do not even kneel during weekdays litourgies either. " because they generally do not feel like it . Kneeling only when the transformation occurs ,is not about disobedience and that is why there is no punishment referred to this canon . It was stated for keeping good order in a crowded Sunday church . I think that a black or white interpretation is out of the historical and cultural context, both at the time and now.
According to the cannons of the church.... Kneeling is prohibited on the Lord's day(Sunday)...... APART FROM certain points in the divine liturgy.........
It seems that, when the Rudder was translated to English the translator must have missed the section referring to the exceptions, at which point kneeling is allowed on Sundays.
This has more than likely created this confusion.
I was shown this by my spiritual father recently......
Oh wow good to know
Lord have Mercy
What about the Sunday of the Holy Cross on the 3rd Sunday in Grest Lent?
What?!?! 🫨🫨😲😧
I’m Catholic, have been turning toward Orthodox the more I learn… and this is a new one to me.
The more I learn and grow to understand of Orthodox I’m often struck by own massive ignorances.
I had no idea this was a thing. Or a question.
Just like I had no idea that Catholics and Orthodox celebrate Easter at different times.
Yet,
again, through learning, while I’m almost bowled over by these seemingly huge deferences, the reasons for it all seem to become more instantly understandable.
It’s like…
What was first “whAaAt woooow”
To me, has become “whaaaat, yeah that makes sense. Can’t believe I never thought about it before”
I’m former Catholic to orthodox. God bless and keep going to orthodoxy.
It is in the Holy Canons and Holy Tradition.
We stand during prayer on the Lords day because it is the day of the Resurrection. Resurrection means upright. To stand up. Be lifted
Small prostrations are allowed but not bending the knees. Because bending the knees symbolize the fall of Adam.
But what if I wanna pray from all of my heart kneeling? Sometimes I feel like I want to kneel before God while praying, and then it feels very relieving doing that but this doesn’t refer to any day, what if I feel like that on a Sunday?
In the Western rites of the Orthodox Church there was always kneeling on Sunday, particularly at the Canon of the Mass. Nor should we stop as we are preserving our authentic Orthodox patrimony. When in Rome do as the Romans do, to paraphrase St. Ambrose. As in the East, standing is also the default position of prayer hence the absence of pews for the first 1500 years of worship.
Which is more authoritative: local tradition, or Ecumenical Council? To phrase it another way, if one was in conflict with the other, which would necessitate change?
The problem are PEWS AND THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT PROSTRATING, BOWING, KNEELING.
NO ONE EVER WAS SITTING IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD
May the Most Holy Theotokos save us.
Kneeling and genuflection is both a demonstration of humility and reverence before God.
💯
What about for altar servers and men who serve on Sunday who first enter the altar area? Do they not prostrate before the altar, and then get a blessing from the priest to vest Sunday morning before the Divine Liturgy? My son is an altar server, and I believe this is the routine.
In my personal experience serving at the altar of a Georgian church, we're instructed on Sundays to perform 3 "short" or "minor" prostrations upon entering the Holiest of Holies, where one crosses oneself, and then bends to bring the crossing hand down to touch the floor, or just does a deep bow. I don't know if this is universal practice, just my expirience.
@@fennybenny5649 Yes, those are called "metanias" in Greek. And those are not full prostrations (prostration in this case meaning on your knees and bending to touch your head to the floor)
is this just on Sunday or during any day, which a Divine Liturgy is celebrated?
Only on Sundays. Because it is the day of resurrection
Thank you for bringing this up. I do not kneel and only one or two others in my parish stand up as well. The question I have always wanted to ask, though, is what do we make of the kneeling service on Pentecost? Is this an "innovation" or has it always been done?
Yes, the prayers at Pentecost are considered to be after the end of Sunday, the Day of Resurrection. So are called the Kneeling Vespers.
It seems that many, maybe most, churches serve them either after the Divine Liturgy or later in the day(light) for convenience. But they are deemed to be the end of the day Vespers.
I thought of that also.
These occur in the evening of Sunday, during Vespers, when Monday begins. Monday is typically a compunctionate day.
Why on the Trinity Day on Sunday the long Kneeling prayers are allowed? I believe those are the Vesperal prayers in practice attached to the Liturgy once a year. Is it a special exception?
In the past, they were a Vespers service at the end of the day.. as i understand.
For practical convenience in our time they are often after the Divine Liturgy or later at around 3pm or so.
But they are deemed to be Vespers leading into the next day.
As i understand it.
Didn't Bishop Irenei explain this beautifully?
Part of keeping the practices of the Church to be consistent. And not subject to individualized opinions..
@ The thing is Vespers is still a Sunday service. It is still subject to kneeling being forbidden.
Sunday evening is not the Lord's day, it is a celebration of the beginning of Monday.
@ you are right Father. I withdraw my point. Thank you.
✝️ ХРИСТОС ВОСКРЕС ✝️
My thoughts were that it had to do with the influence of Rome and the influx of of converts from the ‘Protestant Churches. At least that was my guess before starting the video. Never to old to learn.
I kneel as I take communion. Is this wrong?
Just a bit of confusion remains: at the Epiclesis, I always see the priest do a prostration in the Altar before the Gifts. Is this also not supposed to be done on Sundays? We all drop with the priest in the altar... could this be a commonly misplaced practice, then? Than you, Vladyka!
According to the cannons of the church.... Kneeling is prohibited on the Lord's day(Sunday)...... APART FROM certain points in the divine liturgy.........
It seems that, when the Rudder was translated to English the translator must have missed the section referring to the exceptions, at which point kneeling is allowed on Sundays.
This has more than likely created this confusion.
I was shown this by my spiritual father recently......
@@antonyantony7693In the early Church the penintents were kneeling all the time
@@antonyantony7693Where can we find these Sektion?
And also it is in the Typicon
@@alexpanagiotis4706
It's canon 20 of the first council
It's page 151(Πηδαλιον ) in the explanation of the cannon a 3rd of the way down, mentions at which stages kneeling is permitted on Sundays and Sunday of Pentecost.
It's been omitted in the English translation
@@antonyantony7693 Thank you. I have to look for the term. Proskeynese....or so. Because there are prostrations small and great onces. Great are usually forbidden small are allowed. Kneeling is not common in greek terminology. I will search for it
To prostrate or not to prostrate on Sundays during a person's personal prayers?
Great question!
Not.
No, although in the evening it would be considered Monday under Byzantine time so perhaps it could be permitted
why not?
Christ rose up and not down. Every Sunday we celebrate His resurrection
Let me guess: Easter?
Oh, Sunday...👍
Just as Tertullian did, I remember.
Orthodox are traditional as always...👏
There is no such thing as discussing the things that the holy fathers of the Church decreed, if you want to know whether you should kneel or not on a Sunday, ask your spiritual father 😊
o so very well said precvitere irine
ifand thewe may type thewethen wilt type theuslet not think thewe know better thethan the forebearernesses theour
☦️☦️☦️
Why do the Antiochian parishes kneel?
Mine doesn’t.
Pardon, but who kneels in orthodoxy? We all stand. This is a Roman custom.
I feel that if in your heart, you want to kneel before the Lord, you should do so, no matter the day or type of liturgy. In Scripture it says that one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.
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There is a lot of logic that comes to Christianity. Rules have reasons in Christianity, everything is done through logic and reason. I'm sort of disappointed to have found out about this no kneeling rule. The only reason I heard in the video is to just be obedient, to do as is commanded. Super weird.
Yes, but it is good and right.. and helps us to become one in mind and dogma and practice, as much as possible.
Western individualism doesn't easily accept these Orthodox teachings or understandings.
Didn't Bishop Irenei present this beautifully and gently?? As always.
My response is to be softened and just say, 'Yes, Vladyka. Thank you.'. As best my own spirit humbles itself.
Context is important in this case. The Ecumenical Councils are the highest authority for church practice and have always been in Christianity for the last 2000 years. Everything stated in those councils has theological explanations and deliberations attached. It is not a "because we said so" instance.
@@NFS0038 amen. And the men in those councils had often, often been persecuted for the Faith. They dared not be ungrounded in their decrees.
The tendency to follow our own proclivities is very strong, even in the Church, but let us speak as best we can with one voice and similar minds.
@@NFS0038 could you elaborate on what the theological explanations are ?
@@johnslick8940 it is listed as number XX (20) of the Holy Canons established in the First Ecumenical Council. Beyond rational debate between the Holy Fathers present, Ecumenical Councils are overseen and given authority by the Holy Spirit just as the Apostles met in the first council in the Book of Acts, beginning "it seemed good to the Holy Spirit". It's not an either-or, or a matter of personal agreement, for Christians. This is the commandment of the Church according to God, the Holy Spirit, Third Person of the Trinity. But feel free to research and read about the deliberations in the Ecumenical Councils, there really is nothing new under the sun that hasn't been thought up at least once and questioned over the last 2000 years. It is true that most Christians don't (and can't, for sake of time) look into every issue that has ever been brought up and elaborated on. For most it really is enough that God said so.
The explanation starts at 6:03 in case you were wondering.
Greeks throw this right out and kneel all the time
Not in Greece! Only in the ignorant of the diaspora.
Never seen it in a Greek church and definitely not in Greece
It seems to vary by location. My Antiochian parish does not do this. But there is an Antiochian parish in the North of the state that does, and they also sit at certain times during prayers in the Divine Liturgy, whereas our parish only sits during the Epistle reading and the sermon. So it's not just Greeks practicing this error.
A lot of kneeling in the church has probably also to do with displaying an outward appearance of piety, which is pride, and strange enough the humble thing to do in this case is to stand, not kneel, before God and like the bishop says ‘to do obedience to the holy fathers of the Church’
And what would you do if you are in a church with hundreds of people inside and they all kneel? Tell them “No, you are breaking the canons” ?😑
@asentseto try to avoid the situation. Or humbly move to the rear of the nave, if possible. Either way, it isn't appropriate to make a show. I understand the problem. Been there. Just went with it but would have preferred not to deal with it.
Yes, we live in a highly- individualistic western culture..
Bishop Irenei explains it so well..
He gently gave the right understanding of the behavior we should have. But i do understand the pressures.
@@lindaphillips4646 if they were all kneeling and really focused on God, they shouldn't notice you standing correctly anyway. And if they did, that would be more than one opportunity to "stand corrected"
The Greeks in America kneel on Sunday as penance because Greeks do not come to church as often as they should.
GREEKS ARE NOT ORTHODOX BUT PROTESTANTS
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Roman Rite is different here, but good video!
I have never seen Roman rite??
hmm, so, not the LORD of the sabbath.
Amen