I think Kenny said it best sometimes it’s just more than basketball he’s built a family in Portland he’s grown up there just the same as others around the league it’s not always about basketball and money
Then why even play? Dame is an idiot who just wants to look cool and get points for being loyal. Now he will be irrelevant for years to come who cares if you're looked at as a "ring chaser" leave these trash franchises when they dont surround you with the talent you deserve
@@sac1211 because he loves the game of basketball, the city of Portland and makes hundreds of millions of dollars 🤔 maybe he is more concerned about having a happy life in a city he loves than what people will think about him in 50 years
Loyalty in sports so often is a one way street and we've seen players get straight up lied to by teams after giving everything to them. The day my perspective on this changed is the day the Pistons traded Chauncey Billups to Denver for Allen Iverson. I love A.I. ad a player, but Chauncey lead my Pistons to a chip, made himself a valued player, and gave us everything he had, but in the end he got traded. I never knock players for putting themselves first, because the team will all put the team over the player and us fans are so fickle with how we feel.
@@blastoiseddr i feel that's the problem, the player thinks it's both ways and the team even acts that way until something better comes. I always felt bad for the way the celtics did IT. I understood how it made us better but IT single-handedly made our transition from the big three to selling to a title contender
The day I gave up on loyalty was when Vince Carter left the Raptors. He did so much for Toronto the city itself and when he leaves they treated him like absolute shit. I also felt hurt that LeBron left Miami for obvious reasons but more hurt when Wade left cause I thought he was gonna leave forever for the Bulls or Cavs whatever team he went too and that's only because I enjoyed the duo of both of them and especially loved Wade considering he was one of my favorite players of the league and same with Vince. The only problem I had with Bron leaving is that he was going back to the city that had treated him like Vince Carter when he left the Raptors especially when that team was wasting his career in my opinion.
@@hanschristopherson8056 even they some teams will dog you. Look at the Blake Griffin, Clippers situation. They did that whole song and dance with showing his number retired and everything, and then traded him.
You missed one major point here. A city becomes a home. Damian Liliard was drafted by Portland right out of college and has spent his entirely adult life in Portland. He bought a home there, got married and started a family in Portland. The same can be said for other players like Bradley Beal, Stephen Curry and Wade. Players like Kevin Durant, James Harden and Ben Simmons have not started a family and do not live in the city they play in outside of the season. They don't have the same attachment to the city. For many players, it is about what is doing right for their family, not their own personal accolades and legacy.
As a Lions fan, Damian Lillard’s loyalty to Portland feels so similar to Matthew Stafford’s in Detroit. They both carried their franchise for damn near a decade and have left a legacy behind them as loyal players to the city. No true Lions fan turned on Stafford for requesting a trade last season, and I doubt Blazers fans would for Dame either. Stafford managed to reach that ultimate goal of championship in just a year, and just about every Lions fan out there was happy for him.
I’m a bears fan. Loved Stafford his whole career. Always was mad that you guys had a franchise QB and wasted his career. I’m glad he won the chip this year.
How many times did Detroit make the playoffs with Stafford? Twice? The Blazers have made it 8 times in a row the longest current streak these are not comparable situations
@@Marshm3llow14 being on a shit team in basketball is not the same as being on a shit team in football. That being said, they’re two really good players on teams where their Front offices have wasted every year of their career.
@@jackmass4798 he re-signed with the Hawks because he likes being there, not because he's tired of bouncing around. But yeah he didn't get traded because he wanted, but some orgs will move players to spots they'd prefer to repay their loyalty (CJ recently was only going to be traded to teams in good positions, for example)
@@kid_named_a I was talking about him resigning with the Clips. And orgs will only trade a certain player to their prefer destination only if they're a certain caliber.
If Dame stays with Portland his whole career, we’ll look at him in a similar way to Reggie Miller. I think even if he doesn’t win a ring he’s still a legend.
Nah, more like Sidney Moncrief. 5 time all star. Baller of his day… but nothing really remarkable that stands the rest of time and brings him into conversations. Some young people may recognize the names but most casual won’t.
Nope he'll be irrelevant and eventually knocked out of the top players of all time you need rings to be relevant nowadays. If lebron never left Cleveland do you think he would be in the GOAT discussion right now? Nope.
Just because some dumb people say Reggie Miller is a legend, doesnt make Reggie Miller a legend. That guy only has 3 All-NBA Third Team appearances, just one finals appearance in 18 years and averaged 18-3-3 for career
@@lorenzokhan5792 and if he leaves and gets a ring there will be people who throw shade because he “ring chased”. If he stays but they bring in a bunch of stars to help him win some people are going to throw shade because he needed a stacked squad to win. There will always be a negative narrative available. Dame is just choosing which one he which one people can use on him
Underrated content. This shit is more creative and interesting than more than half of what other NBA TH-camrs are out here doing. Keep grinding Rusty !!😤😤
I can tell he puts so much thought into these type of videos, especially the way he presents himself + the lighting. Def took long hours of editing. Hope this series returns
I'm surprised you never talked about giannis I think he's a good example of how loyalty does have positive aspects especially with a franchise that does respect giannis
One of the points behind the video is the loyalty from the franchise is conditional. If they think you're valuable then they will be loyal to you but if you're not then they'll do you dirty. From a business perspective this is understandable because at the end of the day the goal is to win games and make money. For Giannis and Milwaukee it worked out because they were competent enough to put him in a position to win.
@@oseianderson4554 exactly cuz some prime examples are Chauncey Billups when he got traded from the Pistons, Isiah Thomas after he played injured during a time his sister died while with the Celtics, and DeRozen when he got traded by the Raps for Kawhi. When teams see you as less than a generational talent, you are at their mercy. Cleveland burned a lot of Lebron’s youth, KG never got that second star next to him, D-Wade suffering first or second round exits for years after Shaq left, and even Kobe had hopeless years of carrying trash. It’s a business and stuff like loyalty isn’t always a virtue.
The Bucks org, even though I doubt any of the brass in Kareem’s time are even remotely involved in any decisions the current Bucks org makes, knew of the nightmare that was Kareem departing in his prime, and they were going to make Giannis feel damn near like royalty to show their loyalty to him, first through being a competent org that made sure he had a contending team around him, and through all that work, they have a ring now, and Giannis is there long term. He’s on track to become their franchise’s greatest player ever, so I’m sure their investment in him was worth it
I think a lot of fans want players to be loyal because the fans are loyal to their franchise. Many fans support one team for their whole life even if the team is trash and doesn't deserve that loyalty. The difference is that to players teams aren't just teams they are employers. Many fans don't think about teams as employers though and I think that's where the disconnect comes from.
There’s also the example of Dallas’ beloved “tall baller from the G”, Dirk Nowitzki. The man didn’t even fathom moving on from the Mavs, being the most successful player of our franchise in the process, BY FAR. The potential for him to have played with other players and teams to build on his winning legacy even more was there, but he didn’t even think about leaving, only way was retirement, and that level of loyalty was so rare and crazy to have. No wonder we love this dude as much as we do🥲🥲🥲
You're absolutely right. The franchises rely on fans being obsessed with 'loyalty' to take advantage of players. I'm glad that players are empowering themselves regardless of this and hope it continues.
Hey Rusty, lemme just say, like mans, you're my favorite NBA youtuber. The nuances you present, and like how human you treat the people you talk about. And how you talk about life things in general, it's extremely refreshing to hear things I usually do not expect to come out of sports youtubers in general (no offense, I have an extremely low bar).
The role player point was excellent. This is, in my opinion, your first deep dive where you actually made a point that added a new perspective on the topic. Good video!
I’m so glad you made this video. I hear so many ppl say “magic and bird didn’t join a superteam to win a ring”. That’s like saying jordan would never get on twitter in the middle of the season when there was no twitter in his era
Ben watching for 2 years now, your grind and consistency is so admirable, especially when also taking into account the awesome quality put into your videos!!!
Ironically back when "work until you die for the same Man" was prevalent, there were robust safety nets in America, it was possible to buy a house on one income, wages hadn't stagnated in part due to union strength. It would be interesting to contrast that to today's extremely "empowered" NBA, while for the average American exploitation is the name of the game, and the "free market" has all but gutted Keynesian economics. There's an interesting tension between these two realities.
Im not sure if that's correlation or causation but it is interesting. The notion of being loyal to a company is almost a joke now but that company is also way more likely to screw you over and underpay you
Loyalty is something that helps players and fans connect, especially role players. Guys who played 16 minutes a game for the same team for 10 years are nearly as loved as the star players, at least while they play.
100% agree. Dirk was as loyal as it comes to Dallas. For better or worse. He got one of the most highly thought of rings ever and couldn't be any more loved by the city of Dallas.
There's are a couple more aspects to loyalty: one is that people love stability for the most parts, they don't wanna go into the trouble of moving to a new city and state , they probably have their friends and social life there and don't really wanna leave it. The other is legacy,i don't really think every player should really care about his legacy but i guess thats another topic (maybe you should make a deep dive on it) ,if they do care though it's usually a boost on a players legacy to remain loyal, mostly because legacy is mostly created by media and fans and they both value loyalty
Okay yeah, that was a great fucking deep dive. The amount of work Rusty puts into these deep dives is amazing and he continues to get better. Hope you're doing well bro, love your content!!
This might be your best ever video, been watching since 2019. Most things on NBA TH-cam have been said many times and what makes it enjoyable is the channel's personality or quality, but this is really fresh and original and thoughtfully done, it's eye-opening and thought-provoking. Even where the broader point has been made elsewhere (that teams don't reciprocate loyalty and will trade you) you put it in ways that feel new (describing loyalty as contingent on how good a player is, posing the question about role player loyalty)
Rusty with another banger Deep Dive! You are my NBAYT MVP this year because you apply real, crucial sociocultural perspectives into an extremely narrative absorbed nba discourse. You turned the over discussed topic about where dame's going? into a critical analysis of workers' rights in the nba. I truly believe this video and ones like your other deep dives should be watched by fans & players alike. Keep up the great work.
This is a GREAT video - happy you went to the bigger picture and brought the Raptors into it with the DeRozan trade, and as someone on the ground in Toronto, it's worth highlighting how the city handled it when after Kawhi won the championship, he left, because it's a fascinating expansion of the loyalty conversation. Because think about it, not only were you a part of bringing the first championship to a franchise in its history, you did it with the iconic Game 7 shot and picked up the attention of an entire country behind you, especially with a frankly loaded team that had your back when things went awry. Canada only has one NBA franchise after the Vancouver Grizzlies were moved in the early 2000s, and given the underachieving Blue Jays and the legacy of failure that is the Toronto Maple Leafs, it was a historic win for Toronto. And indeed, given how much free shit was being promised to Kawhi after the title win, there was a hope that he'd stay... But after he did go to the Clippers, even if in hindsight it comes across like a massive mistake as that Toronto team could easily compete for another finals with Kawhi staying, the mood in Toronto was... well, disappointed, but not overwhelmingly so. Folks seemed to understand that Kawhi never intended to be there, he helped do more than anyone could have expected, so when he left the mood was more gratitude and acceptance - a business agreement that worked out in the end for both parties. Similar notes to when Kyle Lowry was traded on his request to Miami - it might suck to lose the GROAT, but he wanted a championship shot as the Raptors rebuilt, and the franchise owed him that and tried to do right by him. Granted, some of this might be the most mature view of the franchise where the business with the DeRozan transaction stung HARD and pissed off a lot of people, and the Raptors are well-run in comparison with a lot of NBA franchises that get more attention - and even then, there was at least a decade when the Raptors organization was considered damn near a joke in the league even if they fielded good teams; it's easy to be reasonable about good business and understanding the limits of loyalty when you're not the Kings or the Knicks or the Blazers. One thing I do wish you could have touched on is how geography and franchise reputation plays into the loyalty conversation, specifically around player movement, in that there are certain franchises that it's way easier to be "loyal" to thanks to extenuating factors, especially when it comes to attracting free agents. The best example of this is Miami, where you have a well-run franchise in a popular city for players (Golden State is another one with SF), but any major metropolitan city like LA or NYC will get free agent attention and drive mobility, not just because they're perceived as being better places to live, but also because they can allow players to grow their off-court businesses (which is why it has to be absolutely maddening to Adam Silver that the Lakers and Knicks are nowhere near as well run as they should be). Paradoxically you can have well-run franchises that don't become free agent destinations (either due to small market situations (Milwaukee), cultural (Boston), or simply geography (any cold weather market, you can probably put Toronto in here too)), and loyalty picks up a different view from a fan's POV. In cases like Lillard's and Giannis', loyalty can keep a franchise player that help put them on the map, especially if the management is good... but with the stagnation in Portland (and the very real possibility of stagnation with the Bucks if they choose not to capitalize with Giannis having signed a long-term deal), it's absolutely a double edged sword, especially if owners want to slash payroll or not compete. Still, very solid video, really did enjoy it. Definitely like you going further with the deep dives.
In Lillard's case it is not about loyalty to the franchise, he just doesn't want to change the city where he and his family have lived in for so many years, we can't blame Dame that he prioritizes stability
@@splashnskillz37 They haven’t. I live in Portland and I love it here. I don’t blame him for wanting to stay. Of course I could never ever blame him if he did choose to go to a team like the Celtics or Heat and win a ring, he more than deserves a team that can actually keep up with his talent. But he has a family in Portland, he owns a business, this city is everything he’s known for his whole adult life. The fact people think that just winning a ring is the only thing that should matter to him makes it seem like they don’t seem him as a person, they only see him as a basketball player. They don’t care what he wants they only care about what is more entertaining for them, and it’s really rather obnoxious.
People really do often forget Kobe demanded a trade in 2007 which basically forced the Lakers to either improve or trade him. Dame is really a fool for staying loyal and giving no incentive for the front office to make big moves.
A prime example of being loyal is Steph Curry. His bad ankles made it a possibility the warriors could dump him cause he may not become anything. They offered an 11 million dollar contract that would set his family up. He took it. He became the 3pt god and his next contracts were loyal contracts. The warriors paid him less and he was cool, and when his time came the loyalty was reciprocated…. Winning 3 rings made it easier I’m sure.
I really like this video and your other deep dives, and your perspective on loyalty from the superstar vs loyalty from the team is spot on. One criticism I have is your comment about LeBron leaving Cleveland at 6:35. I am from Ohio, a few years older than LeBron, and even though I am not a Cavs fan I have followed Lebron since he was in High School because local news aired his freshman and sophmore highlights and you could see even in High School he was gonna be great. I do agree he would have been hated because he left his "home team" in Cleveland in 2010. However, the 2 major factors for the level of hate is 1) The stupid ass hour long special to announce it, and 2) the fact that he decided to leave and team up with 2 other top 10-15 players in the NBA after not getting past Orlando in '09, then giving up in the 2010 playoffs. I nunderstand he did a lot with very litltle with those teams, but still, I watched a lot of NBA basketball back then and he was expected to make the finals against Kobe and didn't. They would not have burned his jersey and did half the shit they did if he had his free agency decision announced via Woj on ESPN like every one else does. There would have been hate strictly for teaming with DWade and Bosh but his Decision and the Heat introduction with the Not 1 Not 2....poured gasoline on the situation.
Players shouldn't be pushed into loyalty when teams have all the freedom to not be loyal to their players. Both sides should be judged by the same merits
I've been saying for 2years now. Dame is fine in Portland. He's loved and never questioned. His loyalty completely hides his flaws. He'll be a Portland legend with no rings
Rusty’s technical storytelling made a huge leap in this deep dive. His points hit harder by adding historical background in the beginning and relating it to current, general society towards the end. This video flowed so well, it’s definitely my favorite from a technical aspect.
Man I’ve been following your channel for like 3 years now years now and yoooo you really getting some where with your story telling a captivating an audience, it’s crazy cause the reason I subscribed was cause of those two things 😂 just keeps getting better
I, for one, would love to see you do a deep dive on how Twitter (or social media in general, if you feel that would work better) has impacted the decisions NBA players have made.
Essentially, take the normal pressures/criticisms that general sports media have put on athletes since sports became popular and amplify that pressure by about a 100
I Love Your NBA content the way you break down the aspects of the game business culture players etc. I enjoy your channel more than the mainstream NBA media keep doing what you doing I would love to see you do a breakdown on The business the actual money of the NBA the history of it and how it has changed the game I'll keep watching Peace
Great deep dive. This may end up playing out like it did with the Timberwolves and KG where the franchise that's screwing you feels so bad that they're screwing you that they end up pushing you out the door for your own sake (i.e. KG to Boston). Seems like that's what it may take for Dame because I just don't see him requesting a trade. As you said, it just sucks to see a great player waste away for a franchise that's not committed to championship ball (and thus not really committed to you).
Loyalty is such a cop out. Lillard uses loyalty as an excuse to continue to under perform. As long as his team is ass, it’s no expectations. Take your ass to a big 3 and now all the pressure is on.
Great video after a loooong time! Good job Rusty! I think Gilbert Arenas said it best, when you leave a franchise you're a traitor but when they trade your ass it's just business.
when rusty said "what about loyalty to role players" and talked about it. i had to sit up and take a deep dive into my brain and think about it cuz it hit me like jake paul.
Maybe it's just me coming from a football/soccer fan background, but I value loyalty to the city, the fans and your teammates over rings and deep playoff runs. Good on Dame for staying there, he's a much bigger legend for that then for potentially winning the ring elsewhere. Not sure why the fans and even yt content creators whose opinions I value are like "Dame should request a trade". He absolutely should not, if he likes the city and the fans there's no upgrade for him. Not even signing with the contender.
Football/Soccer can't trade players away. Trading isn't a thing in Soccer/football. Thaths why you have city legends. Players normally come and go, but when a player really loves the city and the culture they stay.
@@sac1211 Has Portland ever once traded a star player away who didn’t want to go? Not once ever in the history of our franchise. If Dame leaves it will be his choice alone, and nobody in Portland will fault him. Nobody in Portland hated Drexler for winning a ring in Houston, because we understood that Drexler had given everything he had to this city. Dame is the same. But at the same time, nobody should put their own personal preference on what they think would make for more entertaining basketball over what Dame wants for his life. If he wants to stay in Portland then that’s his decision and people need to respect it and shut the hell up. Winning a ring as a second option would not change his legacy from where it is now, and even if it did it really doesn’t seem like that’s his priority. He loves playing basketball in Portland, he has a family and a business and the most loyal fanbase of any star in the league other than maybe Steph. If he’s happy why don’t people let him stay that way?
@@jordandwiggins1026 Well said, that's 100% right. Also, this is a very common opinion "Being loyal is overrated these franchises won't hesitate to trade away their players for some draft picks" and I don't understand it at all. If by "franchises won't hesitate to trade him away" you mean "GMs, the owner and the front office", then sure you're right. But Dame isn't loyal to his front office or owner, he's loyal to the city, the fans, his teammates, cleaning staff... (that last one was a joke obv) So I still don't see the negative here, except the neutral fans wanting to see him on some other team, for the sake of variety or their own entertainment. Basically, NBA fans couldn't care less what's good for Dame, they want drama.
The problem is the value that fans, the media, and other players place on championships. It's the main goal of every season after all. Rings are often the be all and end all when it comes to comparing all time greats. And the discourse among fans and the media in regards to players who don't win a championship is usually less than favorable to put it extremely lightly. And even if a player does stick around, tries to be loyal, and if he or fans make any complaint about the front office and how they run things, often common talking points that pop up are "he chose this situation. He made his bed now he has to sleep in it" "He doesn't care about winning" and "he only stuck around for the money". I saw these talking point numerous times in regards to Dame, and also in regards to Mike Trout of the MLB and Connor McDavid of the NHL.
I love your deep dives. As you have often said, they really are your best videos. One thing I hope these players place more emphasis on is why they were drafted in the first place. They weren't drafted because they were good people or had great personalities. They were drafted because the team believed they had the potential to make them money/have a positive impact on their team. Yes they should be grateful for the opportunity. But they should also recognize that their talent is what brought them that opportunity.
I think one of the biggest problems with loyalty in the nba and how there just isn’t much of it anymore is because of social media. Us as fans as well as media analysts are the main reason there isn’t much loyalty in the nba anymore as there was 20-30 years ago.
It was known that if an all-star game was in Chicago, MJ would say something in the lockerroomlike “you guys are playing offense and defense and we’re gonna play to win the Chicago fans deserve that, anyone who isn’t gonna play stay here”. Fundamentally fans create the economy, and loyalty is better for the fans.
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U NEED TO DEEP DIVE INTO A SHOWER. U NEVER TALK ABOUT MIAMI. WE GON RUN YOU BULLS TONIGHT.
AGAIN.
I think Kenny said it best sometimes it’s just more than basketball he’s built a family in Portland he’s grown up there just the same as others around the league it’s not always about basketball and money
Then why even play? Dame is an idiot who just wants to look cool and get points for being loyal. Now he will be irrelevant for years to come who cares if you're looked at as a "ring chaser" leave these trash franchises when they dont surround you with the talent you deserve
@@sac1211 because he loves the game of basketball, the city of Portland and makes hundreds of millions of dollars 🤔 maybe he is more concerned about having a happy life in a city he loves than what people will think about him in 50 years
@@sac1211 did you even read the comment
@@sac1211 Imagine a bum on TH-cam calling you an idiot while you're make $200m+ 😂😂😂
@@sac1211 Quit being a clown.
Loyalty in sports so often is a one way street and we've seen players get straight up lied to by teams after giving everything to them. The day my perspective on this changed is the day the Pistons traded Chauncey Billups to Denver for Allen Iverson. I love A.I. ad a player, but Chauncey lead my Pistons to a chip, made himself a valued player, and gave us everything he had, but in the end he got traded.
I never knock players for putting themselves first, because the team will all put the team over the player and us fans are so fickle with how we feel.
Totally agree, franchises are just another employer to these players and players shouldn't give them 'loyalty' unless it goes both ways.
Unless your a superstar future hof guy who’s been somewhere 10+ years then franchise might be loyal to you
@@blastoiseddr i feel that's the problem, the player thinks it's both ways and the team even acts that way until something better comes. I always felt bad for the way the celtics did IT. I understood how it made us better but IT single-handedly made our transition from the big three to selling to a title contender
The day I gave up on loyalty was when Vince Carter left the Raptors. He did so much for Toronto the city itself and when he leaves they treated him like absolute shit. I also felt hurt that LeBron left Miami for obvious reasons but more hurt when Wade left cause I thought he was gonna leave forever for the Bulls or Cavs whatever team he went too and that's only because I enjoyed the duo of both of them and especially loved Wade considering he was one of my favorite players of the league and same with Vince. The only problem I had with Bron leaving is that he was going back to the city that had treated him like Vince Carter when he left the Raptors especially when that team was wasting his career in my opinion.
@@hanschristopherson8056 even they some teams will dog you. Look at the Blake Griffin, Clippers situation. They did that whole song and dance with showing his number retired and everything, and then traded him.
You missed one major point here. A city becomes a home. Damian Liliard was drafted by Portland right out of college and has spent his entirely adult life in Portland. He bought a home there, got married and started a family in Portland. The same can be said for other players like Bradley Beal, Stephen Curry and Wade. Players like Kevin Durant, James Harden and Ben Simmons have not started a family and do not live in the city they play in outside of the season. They don't have the same attachment to the city. For many players, it is about what is doing right for their family, not their own personal accolades and legacy.
He said that lil bro lmaoooo
As a Lions fan, Damian Lillard’s loyalty to Portland feels so similar to Matthew Stafford’s in Detroit. They both carried their franchise for damn near a decade and have left a legacy behind them as loyal players to the city. No true Lions fan turned on Stafford for requesting a trade last season, and I doubt Blazers fans would for Dame either.
Stafford managed to reach that ultimate goal of championship in just a year, and just about every Lions fan out there was happy for him.
I’m a bears fan. Loved Stafford his whole career. Always was mad that you guys had a franchise QB and wasted his career. I’m glad he won the chip this year.
Agreed. From Michigan now live in southern ohio. Was happy to see Stanford win.
Lions fan here,
Love him, love what he did for us, love what he’s doing now. Stafford will always be my qb
How many times did Detroit make the playoffs with Stafford? Twice? The Blazers have made it 8 times in a row the longest current streak these are not comparable situations
@@Marshm3llow14 being on a shit team in basketball is not the same as being on a shit team in football. That being said, they’re two really good players on teams where their Front offices have wasted every year of their career.
An underrated one is Lou Williams. He took less money when he was in all star conversation to stay with the Clips yet they traded him in a heartbeat.
they did trade him to his hometown in atlanta where he went to the ECF and is currently very happy to be there tho
@@kid_named_a But it's not because he asked to be traded tho. He said he was tired of switching teams all the time. That was the reason he resigned.
@@jackmass4798 he re-signed with the Hawks because he likes being there, not because he's tired of bouncing around. But yeah he didn't get traded because he wanted, but some orgs will move players to spots they'd prefer to repay their loyalty (CJ recently was only going to be traded to teams in good positions, for example)
@@kid_named_a I was talking about him resigning with the Clips. And orgs will only trade a certain player to their prefer destination only if they're a certain caliber.
If Dame stays with Portland his whole career, we’ll look at him in a similar way to Reggie Miller. I think even if he doesn’t win a ring he’s still a legend.
there will still be those who throw shade just because he doesn't have a ring unfortunately
Nah, more like Sidney Moncrief. 5 time all star. Baller of his day… but nothing really remarkable that stands the rest of time and brings him into conversations.
Some young people may recognize the names but most casual won’t.
Nope he'll be irrelevant and eventually knocked out of the top players of all time you need rings to be relevant nowadays. If lebron never left Cleveland do you think he would be in the GOAT discussion right now? Nope.
Just because some dumb people say Reggie Miller is a legend, doesnt make Reggie Miller a legend. That guy only has 3 All-NBA Third Team appearances, just one finals appearance in 18 years and averaged 18-3-3 for career
@@lorenzokhan5792 and if he leaves and gets a ring there will be people who throw shade because he “ring chased”. If he stays but they bring in a bunch of stars to help him win some people are going to throw shade because he needed a stacked squad to win. There will always be a negative narrative available. Dame is just choosing which one he which one people can use on him
20 years from now, we will all become the old heads telling the kids “Y’all don’t know who Damian Lillard is? 😔”
Unfortunately, I could definitely see this happening.
Luckily, you'll only have to show them 2 shots and they'll remember him as a legend. Not many players can say that
Nah those Dame Time winners means he’s going to live forever
69 likes… nice 😎
thats sad as fuck
Underrated content. This shit is more creative and interesting than more than half of what other NBA TH-camrs are out here doing. Keep grinding Rusty !!😤😤
I agree
I can tell he puts so much thought into these type of videos, especially the way he presents himself + the lighting. Def took long hours of editing. Hope this series returns
Right! Man my boy Rusty needs more respect 😤
Facts lmao you see bsolz just reacting to Stephen a clips like wth happened ☠️
I'm surprised you never talked about giannis I think he's a good example of how loyalty does have positive aspects especially with a franchise that does respect giannis
One of the points behind the video is the loyalty from the franchise is conditional. If they think you're valuable then they will be loyal to you but if you're not then they'll do you dirty. From a business perspective this is understandable because at the end of the day the goal is to win games and make money. For Giannis and Milwaukee it worked out because they were competent enough to put him in a position to win.
@@oseianderson4554 exactly cuz some prime examples are Chauncey Billups when he got traded from the Pistons, Isiah Thomas after he played injured during a time his sister died while with the Celtics, and DeRozen when he got traded by the Raps for Kawhi. When teams see you as less than a generational talent, you are at their mercy. Cleveland burned a lot of Lebron’s youth, KG never got that second star next to him, D-Wade suffering first or second round exits for years after Shaq left, and even Kobe had hopeless years of carrying trash. It’s a business and stuff like loyalty isn’t always a virtue.
The Bucks org, even though I doubt any of the brass in Kareem’s time are even remotely involved in any decisions the current Bucks org makes, knew of the nightmare that was Kareem departing in his prime, and they were going to make Giannis feel damn near like royalty to show their loyalty to him, first through being a competent org that made sure he had a contending team around him, and through all that work, they have a ring now, and Giannis is there long term. He’s on track to become their franchise’s greatest player ever, so I’m sure their investment in him was worth it
He got lucky af to win that title last year and he’ll never win another playing for the bucks
@@skywalker2759 facts
I think a lot of fans want players to be loyal because the fans are loyal to their franchise. Many fans support one team for their whole life even if the team is trash and doesn't deserve that loyalty. The difference is that to players teams aren't just teams they are employers. Many fans don't think about teams as employers though and I think that's where the disconnect comes from.
There’s also the example of Dallas’ beloved “tall baller from the G”, Dirk Nowitzki. The man didn’t even fathom moving on from the Mavs, being the most successful player of our franchise in the process, BY FAR. The potential for him to have played with other players and teams to build on his winning legacy even more was there, but he didn’t even think about leaving, only way was retirement, and that level of loyalty was so rare and crazy to have. No wonder we love this dude as much as we do🥲🥲🥲
And he took a pay cut
I swear I fell in love with my Mavs because of Dirk!! He was loyal to the soil, and I loved it!!
dude, the RDR 2 comparison was INCREDIBLY ACCURATE, good job on that one
You're absolutely right. The franchises rely on fans being obsessed with 'loyalty' to take advantage of players. I'm glad that players are empowering themselves regardless of this and hope it continues.
Yeah but now we are at the opposite extreme. Players have so much power now there isn't even a point to signing a contract lmao
@@shawns.12 good. Power to the people.
Hey Rusty, lemme just say, like mans, you're my favorite NBA youtuber. The nuances you present, and like how human you treat the people you talk about. And how you talk about life things in general, it's extremely refreshing to hear things I usually do not expect to come out of sports youtubers in general (no offense, I have an extremely low bar).
STRAIGHT UP FACTS!! I love his channel because, for the most part, he says what we fans of the game are always thinking and saying.
The role player point was excellent. This is, in my opinion, your first deep dive where you actually made a point that added a new perspective on the topic. Good video!
I thought the Popovitch video did that too
I’m so glad you made this video. I hear so many ppl say “magic and bird didn’t join a superteam to win a ring”. That’s like saying jordan would never get on twitter in the middle of the season when there was no twitter in his era
Plus they didn’t go join a super team because they were already on one, as far as that era is concerned.
Magic also asked to be traded but no one wants to remember that
Ben watching for 2 years now, your grind and consistency is so admirable, especially when also taking into account the awesome quality put into your videos!!!
Love the rdr2 references at 20:05
Ironically back when "work until you die for the same Man" was prevalent, there were robust safety nets in America, it was possible to buy a house on one income, wages hadn't stagnated in part due to union strength. It would be interesting to contrast that to today's extremely "empowered" NBA, while for the average American exploitation is the name of the game, and the "free market" has all but gutted Keynesian economics.
There's an interesting tension between these two realities.
Im not sure if that's correlation or causation but it is interesting. The notion of being loyal to a company is almost a joke now but that company is also way more likely to screw you over and underpay you
Super based take 💯
20:08 A man of FINE culture you are indeed Rusty. Great game!
I legit finished that game right before working on this topic, timing couldn’t have been better to talk about blind loyalty
Loyalty is something that helps players and fans connect, especially role players. Guys who played 16 minutes a game for the same team for 10 years are nearly as loved as the star players, at least while they play.
A little disappointed dirk didn't get mentioned in the loyalty topic but really good deep dive overall
100% agree. Dirk was as loyal as it comes to Dallas. For better or worse. He got one of the most highly thought of rings ever and couldn't be any more loved by the city of Dallas.
Plus he wouldn't leave when Kobe was recording him
There's are a couple more aspects to loyalty: one is that people love stability for the most parts, they don't wanna go into the trouble of moving to a new city and state , they probably have their friends and social life there and don't really wanna leave it. The other is legacy,i don't really think every player should really care about his legacy but i guess thats another topic (maybe you should make a deep dive on it) ,if they do care though it's usually a boost on a players legacy to remain loyal, mostly because legacy is mostly created by media and fans and they both value loyalty
It’s weird how in any other industry you can make money anywhere you want in order to succeed, but in sports you need to be loyal
LIKE THIS VIDEO THIS IS A MASTERPIECE. RESPECT RUSTY AND HIS EFFORTS
The fact you mentioned RDR 2 in blind loyalty made me love you even more
Hey I saw you in a BDubs stream yesterday. Love to see it.
Okay yeah, that was a great fucking deep dive. The amount of work Rusty puts into these deep dives is amazing and he continues to get better. Hope you're doing well bro, love your content!!
This might be your best ever video, been watching since 2019. Most things on NBA TH-cam have been said many times and what makes it enjoyable is the channel's personality or quality, but this is really fresh and original and thoughtfully done, it's eye-opening and thought-provoking. Even where the broader point has been made elsewhere (that teams don't reciprocate loyalty and will trade you) you put it in ways that feel new (describing loyalty as contingent on how good a player is, posing the question about role player loyalty)
Rusty with another banger Deep Dive! You are my NBAYT MVP this year because you apply real, crucial sociocultural perspectives into an extremely narrative absorbed nba discourse. You turned the over discussed topic about where dame's going? into a critical analysis of workers' rights in the nba. I truly believe this video and ones like your other deep dives should be watched by fans & players alike. Keep up the great work.
This is a GREAT video - happy you went to the bigger picture and brought the Raptors into it with the DeRozan trade, and as someone on the ground in Toronto, it's worth highlighting how the city handled it when after Kawhi won the championship, he left, because it's a fascinating expansion of the loyalty conversation.
Because think about it, not only were you a part of bringing the first championship to a franchise in its history, you did it with the iconic Game 7 shot and picked up the attention of an entire country behind you, especially with a frankly loaded team that had your back when things went awry. Canada only has one NBA franchise after the Vancouver Grizzlies were moved in the early 2000s, and given the underachieving Blue Jays and the legacy of failure that is the Toronto Maple Leafs, it was a historic win for Toronto. And indeed, given how much free shit was being promised to Kawhi after the title win, there was a hope that he'd stay...
But after he did go to the Clippers, even if in hindsight it comes across like a massive mistake as that Toronto team could easily compete for another finals with Kawhi staying, the mood in Toronto was... well, disappointed, but not overwhelmingly so. Folks seemed to understand that Kawhi never intended to be there, he helped do more than anyone could have expected, so when he left the mood was more gratitude and acceptance - a business agreement that worked out in the end for both parties. Similar notes to when Kyle Lowry was traded on his request to Miami - it might suck to lose the GROAT, but he wanted a championship shot as the Raptors rebuilt, and the franchise owed him that and tried to do right by him.
Granted, some of this might be the most mature view of the franchise where the business with the DeRozan transaction stung HARD and pissed off a lot of people, and the Raptors are well-run in comparison with a lot of NBA franchises that get more attention - and even then, there was at least a decade when the Raptors organization was considered damn near a joke in the league even if they fielded good teams; it's easy to be reasonable about good business and understanding the limits of loyalty when you're not the Kings or the Knicks or the Blazers.
One thing I do wish you could have touched on is how geography and franchise reputation plays into the loyalty conversation, specifically around player movement, in that there are certain franchises that it's way easier to be "loyal" to thanks to extenuating factors, especially when it comes to attracting free agents. The best example of this is Miami, where you have a well-run franchise in a popular city for players (Golden State is another one with SF), but any major metropolitan city like LA or NYC will get free agent attention and drive mobility, not just because they're perceived as being better places to live, but also because they can allow players to grow their off-court businesses (which is why it has to be absolutely maddening to Adam Silver that the Lakers and Knicks are nowhere near as well run as they should be). Paradoxically you can have well-run franchises that don't become free agent destinations (either due to small market situations (Milwaukee), cultural (Boston), or simply geography (any cold weather market, you can probably put Toronto in here too)), and loyalty picks up a different view from a fan's POV. In cases like Lillard's and Giannis', loyalty can keep a franchise player that help put them on the map, especially if the management is good... but with the stagnation in Portland (and the very real possibility of stagnation with the Bucks if they choose not to capitalize with Giannis having signed a long-term deal), it's absolutely a double edged sword, especially if owners want to slash payroll or not compete.
Still, very solid video, really did enjoy it. Definitely like you going further with the deep dives.
Waddup Rusty 💯another one 🔥🔥🏀
Thanks for the deep dive. Your honestly one of my favorite basketball content creators. Really respect the consistency too.
Love from Denmark 🇩🇰
In Lillard's case it is not about loyalty to the franchise, he just doesn't want to change the city where he and his family have lived in for so many years, we can't blame Dame that he prioritizes stability
What if they decide to leave tho ?
@@splashnskillz37 They haven’t. I live in Portland and I love it here. I don’t blame him for wanting to stay.
Of course I could never ever blame him if he did choose to go to a team like the Celtics or Heat and win a ring, he more than deserves a team that can actually keep up with his talent. But he has a family in Portland, he owns a business, this city is everything he’s known for his whole adult life. The fact people think that just winning a ring is the only thing that should matter to him makes it seem like they don’t seem him as a person, they only see him as a basketball player. They don’t care what he wants they only care about what is more entertaining for them, and it’s really rather obnoxious.
To me, having a deep connection with a city and becomes immortal at that place is more important than winning a chip
It’s not about loyalty to a franchise, it’s about loyalty to the fans. The fact you don’t understand that is astounding
It’s about loyalty to a franchise bro be for real 💀
Most consistent channel out here fasho
you're the best nba essayist. like honestly you should feel like a million bucks everyday.
You never want to have a toxic relationship. It definitely doesn't help when the future ain't bright and nothing is new
The boss baby joke really got me
People really do often forget Kobe demanded a trade in 2007 which basically forced the Lakers to either improve or trade him. Dame is really a fool for staying loyal and giving no incentive for the front office to make big moves.
Dope content! Love these deep dives
A prime example of being loyal is Steph Curry. His bad ankles made it a possibility the warriors could dump him cause he may not become anything. They offered an 11 million dollar contract that would set his family up. He took it. He became the 3pt god and his next contracts were loyal contracts. The warriors paid him less and he was cool, and when his time came the loyalty was reciprocated…. Winning 3 rings made it easier I’m sure.
I really like this video and your other deep dives, and your perspective on loyalty from the superstar vs loyalty from the team is spot on. One criticism I have is your comment about LeBron leaving Cleveland at 6:35. I am from Ohio, a few years older than LeBron, and even though I am not a Cavs fan I have followed Lebron since he was in High School because local news aired his freshman and sophmore highlights and you could see even in High School he was gonna be great. I do agree he would have been hated because he left his "home team" in Cleveland in 2010. However, the 2 major factors for the level of hate is 1) The stupid ass hour long special to announce it, and 2) the fact that he decided to leave and team up with 2 other top 10-15 players in the NBA after not getting past Orlando in '09, then giving up in the 2010 playoffs. I nunderstand he did a lot with very litltle with those teams, but still, I watched a lot of NBA basketball back then and he was expected to make the finals against Kobe and didn't. They would not have burned his jersey and did half the shit they did if he had his free agency decision announced via Woj on ESPN like every one else does. There would have been hate strictly for teaming with DWade and Bosh but his Decision and the Heat introduction with the Not 1 Not 2....poured gasoline on the situation.
Players shouldn't be pushed into loyalty when teams have all the freedom to not be loyal to their players. Both sides should be judged by the same merits
What a great video! Loved every second of it!
I've been saying for 2years now.
Dame is fine in Portland. He's loved and never questioned.
His loyalty completely hides his flaws.
He'll be a Portland legend with no rings
Rusty’s technical storytelling made a huge leap in this deep dive. His points hit harder by adding historical background in the beginning and relating it to current, general society towards the end. This video flowed so well, it’s definitely my favorite from a technical aspect.
Only 10 seconds in and this is already a banger. Keep it up Rusty!
Rusty when Lavine joins the Blazers in the off-season:
I love how you tied loyalty to implications from capitalism, really gives a different perspective to the subject
Great choice of background music I’m watching this high asf and the music made he was saying sound poetic
It should be
1. Dirk
2. Dame
3. Timmy D
4. Kobe
Dirk and Dame never asked to be traded like Kobe did.
this is your best video yet, will definitely be sharing.
Man I’ve been following your channel for like 3 years now years now and yoooo you really getting some where with your story telling a captivating an audience, it’s crazy cause the reason I subscribed was cause of those two things 😂 just keeps getting better
I, for one, would love to see you do a deep dive on how Twitter (or social media in general, if you feel that would work better) has impacted the decisions NBA players have made.
Essentially, take the normal pressures/criticisms that general sports media have put on athletes since sports became popular and amplify that pressure by about a 100
That would be a great video.
in love with anticapitalist NBA analysis
Preach. This is so accurate and true. Well said sir.
This is your best video yet I love the sociological takes thrown in there.
Dude this is a phenomenal video amazing work. Enjoyed every second of it.
These Deep Dives are so freaking good, keep it up
This was your best deep dive yet, great work Rusty!
No doubt about it, Jacob is a Comrade! Good work!
“These people are loyal even though they went to other teams but we’re not gonna talk about that” what the fuck.
I Love Your NBA content the way you break down the aspects of the game business culture players etc. I enjoy your channel more than the mainstream NBA media keep doing what you doing I would love to see you do a breakdown on The business the actual money of the NBA the history of it and how it has changed the game I'll keep watching Peace
Rusty with another gem!!!!
Great deep dive. This may end up playing out like it did with the Timberwolves and KG where the franchise that's screwing you feels so bad that they're screwing you that they end up pushing you out the door for your own sake (i.e. KG to Boston). Seems like that's what it may take for Dame because I just don't see him requesting a trade. As you said, it just sucks to see a great player waste away for a franchise that's not committed to championship ball (and thus not really committed to you).
Great video, appreciate the over-arching tone and excellent commentary on a difficult topic to cover!
So glad someone doesnt forget about sundays... I might share this with some people just for that
Fantastic video - right back on the trend of your latest video being your best video!
Loyalty is such a cop out. Lillard uses loyalty as an excuse to continue to under perform. As long as his team is ass, it’s no expectations. Take your ass to a big 3 and now all the pressure is on.
Your best deep dive imo, great job
I think dame has weighed up his odds and decided becoming an icon in Portland has just as much legacy and financial value as a ring would.
I’m early as hell for this one. Cant wait to watch another one of your detailed Deep dives!
Another reminder of why I subscribed. Your deep dives are so good. Do one on Jokic!
I think ultimately it comes down to Dame doing what he feels is best for his career and life and not what everyone else thinks he should do.
I don't really have to say this but this video was so well written, great work!
Looking like a GQ model in the black and white frames 😂 go rusty
Comrade Rusty W great video as usual you do not miss good sir
This and the drose deep dive my two favorites so far
Great video after a loooong time! Good job Rusty! I think Gilbert Arenas said it best, when you leave a franchise you're a traitor but when they trade your ass it's just business.
Forgot to leave a like and a comment here earlier, so doing that now. Keep it up man.
when rusty said "what about loyalty to role players" and talked about it. i had to sit up and take a deep dive into my brain and think about it cuz it hit me like jake paul.
Bro u doing too much with the lights😂 jokes aside great vid as always
i really enjoy your videos! love from Barcelona!
Maybe it's just me coming from a football/soccer fan background, but I value loyalty to the city, the fans and your teammates over rings and deep playoff runs. Good on Dame for staying there, he's a much bigger legend for that then for potentially winning the ring elsewhere. Not sure why the fans and even yt content creators whose opinions I value are like "Dame should request a trade". He absolutely should not, if he likes the city and the fans there's no upgrade for him. Not even signing with the contender.
Being loyal is overrated these franchises won't hesitate to trade away their players for some draft picks
Football/Soccer can't trade players away. Trading isn't a thing in Soccer/football. Thaths why you have city legends. Players normally come and go, but when a player really loves the city and the culture they stay.
@@sac1211 Has Portland ever once traded a star player away who didn’t want to go? Not once ever in the history of our franchise.
If Dame leaves it will be his choice alone, and nobody in Portland will fault him. Nobody in Portland hated Drexler for winning a ring in Houston, because we understood that Drexler had given everything he had to this city. Dame is the same.
But at the same time, nobody should put their own personal preference on what they think would make for more entertaining basketball over what Dame wants for his life. If he wants to stay in Portland then that’s his decision and people need to respect it and shut the hell up. Winning a ring as a second option would not change his legacy from where it is now, and even if it did it really doesn’t seem like that’s his priority. He loves playing basketball in Portland, he has a family and a business and the most loyal fanbase of any star in the league other than maybe Steph. If he’s happy why don’t people let him stay that way?
@@jordandwiggins1026 Well said, that's 100% right. Also, this is a very common opinion "Being loyal is overrated these franchises won't hesitate to trade away their players for some draft picks" and I don't understand it at all. If by "franchises won't hesitate to trade him away" you mean "GMs, the owner and the front office", then sure you're right. But Dame isn't loyal to his front office or owner, he's loyal to the city, the fans, his teammates, cleaning staff... (that last one was a joke obv) So I still don't see the negative here, except the neutral fans wanting to see him on some other team, for the sake of variety or their own entertainment. Basically, NBA fans couldn't care less what's good for Dame, they want drama.
The problem is the value that fans, the media, and other players place on championships. It's the main goal of every season after all. Rings are often the be all and end all when it comes to comparing all time greats. And the discourse among fans and the media in regards to players who don't win a championship is usually less than favorable to put it extremely lightly. And even if a player does stick around, tries to be loyal, and if he or fans make any complaint about the front office and how they run things, often common talking points that pop up are "he chose this situation. He made his bed now he has to sleep in it" "He doesn't care about winning" and "he only stuck around for the money". I saw these talking point numerous times in regards to Dame, and also in regards to Mike Trout of the MLB and Connor McDavid of the NHL.
Deep Dives! Yesssss! More please! More deep dives!
Great take on loyalty. Definitely agree on Dame.
I love your deep dives. As you have often said, they really are your best videos. One thing I hope these players place more emphasis on is why they were drafted in the first place. They weren't drafted because they were good people or had great personalities. They were drafted because the team believed they had the potential to make them money/have a positive impact on their team. Yes they should be grateful for the opportunity. But they should also recognize that their talent is what brought them that opportunity.
This was phenomenal! Very well thought out with great points!
Man Rusty, I love your deep dives! Never regret subscribing at 50k subs!
The guitar in the background when talking about AI in phili and his parallels to dame😮💨
I think one of the biggest problems with loyalty in the nba and how there just isn’t much of it anymore is because of social media. Us as fans as well as media analysts are the main reason there isn’t much loyalty in the nba anymore as there was 20-30 years ago.
U know it’s a good day when you see a rusty deep dive on your feed
Loved the Arthur/Dutch's loyalty comparison
Love the deep dives!
It was known that if an all-star game was in Chicago, MJ would say something in the lockerroomlike “you guys are playing offense and defense and we’re gonna play to win the Chicago fans deserve that, anyone who isn’t gonna play stay here”. Fundamentally fans create the economy, and loyalty is better for the fans.
Whoops 😂 looks like Dame got some sense in him. Great video regardless 👍🏻
Love these deep dives
That rdr2 came by surprise but is the perfect example of blind loyalty to a lost cause