Why Jazz Musicians ♥♥♥ STRAVINSKY
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.พ. 2025
- If you ask a jazz musician which Classical composer they like, near the top of the first on the list is usually Igor Stravinsky. His works have been influential on many of the leading jazz composers, from Charlie Mingus to Charlie Mingus
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LSO Film I did on Stravinsky's Ebony Concerto :
• David Bruce on Stravin...
Research:
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BBC Radio 3 Program:
• Stravinsky & Jazz - BB...
Jazz Versions of the Rite of Spring
The Rite Of Spring Jazz Rock Version by Takeshi Inomata
• The Rite Of Spring Jaz...
The Bad Plus:
• Ojai Music Festival 20...
Brenzel:
• Le sacre du printemps ...
Rhythmic Patterns in Ragtime & Jazz
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Stravinsky and Ragtime BARBARA B. HEYMAN
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Stravinsky's Jazz Influenced Music
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From my experience (in addition to Stravinsky!) jazz intellegentsia is all about Bartok, especially his string quartets, for the same reasons you suggested jazz people like Stravinsky. Tonal composer with an expanded harmonic repertoire, and "red-blooded folkloric rhythms." In that way Bartok is like Stravinsky, but...like...even moreso.
and especially when played on the bass (-:
I like both of your utube channels.... Both of you have information to impart to early/student composers. posted 18th December 2018
Jazz intelligentsia..... jazz intelligentsia... jazz intelligentsia. Hahahaha
you lost me at jazz intellegentsia man
ilike threes he means the snobs that think ‘intellectual’ chatter about music has anything to do with making it. Jazz intelligentsia what joke! I don’t think many of the great jazz artists went to Harvard. And don’t get me started about those fat cats in Wall Street
The intersection between the jazz and classical community is becoming stronger every day and I love it so much
A lot of jazz musicians also like the impressionists like Debussy and Ravel
I agree, while I can see the influence of Stravinsky i think the "impressionists" had a greater influence. From Bix Beiderbecke playing his In a mist, to Duke Ellington (and maybe even more Billy Strayhorn) to Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Lenny Breau and many others i think Debussy is probably the composer who had the biggest influence on the genre.
Linden Arden Stravinsky and Debussy were close friends they had equal impact on Jazz I think
Linden Arden And Ravel was influential as well, you should check out Coltrane and Ravel’s relationship.
Linden Arden and also as you said Bill Evans was influenced by Debussy but he first listened to Stravinsky’s classic Petrushka and felt enormuous awe. Therefore, I think they all had equal influence on Jazz. They all respected Jazz. They influenced Jazz and Jazz influenced them.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention them in my post. Very true.
Adding to what you said at 1:10 , there's also the time when Charlie Parker quoted a stravinsky composition while he was in the audience: "Parker’s phrases were flying as fluently as ever on this particular daunting “Koko.” At the beginning of his second chorus he interpolated the opening of Stravinsky’s Firebird Suite as though it had always been there, a perfect fit, and then sailed on with the rest of the number. Stravinsky roared with delight, pounding his glass on the table, the upward arc of the glass sending its liquor and ice cubes onto the people behind him, who threw up their hands or ducked." From Alfred Appel's "Jazz modernism"
Let’s just face it, the jazz guys loved stravinsky because the dude was hip!
He was both hip and their total opposite in almost every way. So perhaps complementary.
The Avant-garde jazz musician the late great Alice Coltrane ( Aug 27, 1937 - Jan 12, 2007 ) recorded versions / interpretations of Stravinsky's The Fire Bird and The Rite of Spring. In her writings she has credited Stravinsky as a profound influence on her.Her husband the late John Coltrane ( Sep 23, 1926 - Jul 17, 1967 ) was also a great admirer of Stravinsky.
Jazz moves me in many ways; the unexpected melodies over harmonies, the dissonance and its resolutions, the beauty in its melodies and orchestrations, the complexity of its rhythmic breakdowns, the challenge of its entirety. ALL of this is why I love Stravinsky. But, there are also maestro's Maurice Ravel and Allan Holdsworth to thank for great appreciation and inspiration in their tireless contributions to music.
I was lucky enough to have profound interest and appreciation for both jazz and classical music since a very young age, and fortunate enough to have studied music theory, classical and jazz, and performance with some great teachers and professors through high school and later through university.
I'd say Bartok, Messiaen and Bach are also up there from conversations I have..... It's interesting, I feel I understood that music before I really got Mozart... Even before I was listening to and playing jazz.
Lunar Orbit Debussy’s a big one. But rarely hear Beethoven. From piano players, maybe.
Bach is HUGE with jazzers
I know that Bill Evans was a huge Bach fan
Messiaen played jazz himself and it's in a lot more of his writing than Stravinsky's. I'd blame his lack of popularity among jazz musicians more on lack of exposure to them than anything.
I saw Ron Carter in concert and he was repeatedly referencing Bach in his solos...
I am anything but a jazz musician. I was (and am) a born and raised classical musician. I was a member of the Texas Boys Choir at the time that Stravinsky himself crowned us the "Best Boy Choir in the World". That does not make me an expert on Stravinsky, but it does (perhaps) explain some of my partiality towards him. During my time in the choir, one of the pieces we performed was Stravinsky's Mass (1948). This was (quite clearly) not a jazz piece, but there are hints of jazz in the writing for woodwinds. If you've never examined the piece, it's worth a look.
I came here for the conversation about jazz and Stravinsky, but I stayed for the dancing hippo.
Anyone know where to watch that? The video he linked to doesn't have the animation.
i'm ashamed but thought the same :) happy to listen to the appreciation of Strawinsky (that from a Bartok fan like me).
now please david, give us the hippo :)
Just discovered your channel - - excellent videos - - informative, insightful, funny, sincere, and above inspiring - - you're a great music educator
Excellent video Mr. Bruce! Fell in love with the rite of spring at an impressionable young age, and now as a young man I find that this link between jazz and Stravinsky has opened my ears and mind to jazz although I wasn’t consciously aware of this until rather recently.
cant believe ive just now discovered you (from your post on r/jazz), amazing high quality videos! looking forward to see more :)
I'm always fascinated by classical and jazz composers inspiring each other, and more importantly, which pieces specifically and why. Great video!
Ancedote: After 30 yrs. as a classical musician, I've been playing jazz for the past 10 yrs. (symphony orchestras are an endangered species). While playing a trad jazz gig on Bourbon Street the pianist during his solo (and knowing I was a former classical player) started throwing in Debussy quotes. My head whipped around so quick towards him I almost injured myself. He just looked at me with a big smile on his face and winked. I'm a double bassist. Improvising is hard (like Mozart #35). After watching this video, I think I'll start working on some Stravinsky quotes.
Stravinsky is popular because the rite is very rhythmic
It's ur-death metal. The ballet scenario is literally about death.
Stravinsky is my favorite classical composer. A legend says he went for a walk in LA and stopped in a bar for a beer and someone played Woody Herman’s record of “Caldonia” the trumpets play a Stravinsky passage. Igor got a hold of Woody and asked for his money for Caldonia, they met and Ebony Concerto was the result...
I'm a bit of a jazz guy, but where I really gained my appreciation for Stravinsky is from the marching band world. The rite of spring is definitely one of the most commonly tapped source materials in drum corps and even in competitive high school bands.
Also Bartok, Debussy, Ravel... Nice job of giving a larger overview, bringing more traditional music and jazz together in a good fussion.
Very, very educational. Thank you.
A piece that absolutely blew me away when we analyzed it in high school was Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms. I didn't know much music back then, and the piece struck me as way more harmonically sophisticated than what I have heard before... made me try to incorporate some of the ideas from that in my guitar playing. Looking back at it now, there seem to be similarities with Coltrane
I always look forward to your insights. Thank you so much. Always a nice part of my musical experience.
What composer doesn’t love Stravinsky! I am not a jazz musician by any stretch but Stravinsky was my source, my wellspring from which all of my understanding and love of music began. I believe I owe my career as a music producer to the enormous explosion of joy I felt as a small child hearing his music. From there, Beethoven, J.S. Bach, Copeland, the Beatles, and on and on... great composition of all kinds had a solid footing on which to grow my mind.
Must tell you, as a musician with a fair amount of technique, your videos excercise the most (or 'tied' with ears) ...most important part of a musician's faculties - the brain.
Endlessly fascinating, these.
Such a humble and magnificent tribute to the legend! Stravinsky is my favorite composer ever, he is like my hero. The three ballets have been shaping my personality for a long time. People who love Jazz also love him because he also respected Jazz throughout his lifetime. Most people ignored Jazz and did not understand its importance for music history, however, Stravinsky was not like that and even he hired legendary Jazz giant Richard Davis for performing in his orchestra and praised him after the concert. I am an avid listener of Jazz, Hip Hop, Funk, Minimal, Experimental and Soul music and other related styles in this manner and I found all these styles and more in one and only Stravinsky’s music. As legendary Pierre Boulez and other experts emphasized that he and Debussy were the true creators of modern music. Thank you Stravinsky and other great composers such as Ravel, Bartok and other iconoclasts for changing my life. You have changed the world that’s for sure. Long live iconoclastic music! 💛💛💛💛💛
Didn't he also say that Ellington was the greatest American composer?
Jazz Guitar Scrapbook I did not know that, thanks!
I always enjoy David Bruce's videos. He is right on the mark, sensible, balanced, and clear. After 40+ years of teaching music history in universities, I feel envy at Bruce's presentations. There is, still, one tiny detail that could have added something to this presentation. Stravinsky, himself, stated that the element of jazz that interested him was not its rhythm but its harmony. Bruce has discovered this, however, without Stravinsky's help.
Thanks David! I love you too!
I think the rite is loved by many because it has such good "flow"
Best theory/musicology(?) channel on TH-cam! You da man! Animations on point as usual!
Great vid! Great info & great production!
Thanks for this great video, I'm playing jazz and modestly do some both jazz and classical compositions as well. Stravinsky is definitely one of my masters! The similarity of the introduction of the bass clarinet between the Rite and bitches brew is also something I really enjoy. To add a comment to the examples given, I think Franck Zappa once said he got an incredible and inspiring experience when he heard the Rite for the first time. Thanks again Mr Bruce for your great work!
I was a teenager who knew pretty much nothing about music and rarely listened to classical pieces... But at 15 I started searching for composers I'd like, and out of my 4 favorites picks, there was Stravinski and Debussy. I fell in love with blues and jazz shortly after. I now study jazz singing. Turns out my ears were already inclined towards jazzy sounds: they knew my path before I did. Lol
There is something very earthy about stravinsky's music that appeals to me as a jazz player and fan. I'm particularly fond of the ballet, apollon musagete. It has this quality plus a sophistication that reminds me of bill evans' music of the early 60's.
Also the great solo guitar album that Stravinsky worked on personally with master Jazz guitarist Larry Coryell.
If he did I suspect it was a wasted opportunity for guitar literature. A collaboration with Julian Bream (who had unsuccessfully approached Stravinsky for a commission) would have undoubtedly been more fruitful.
Your mileage may differ.
Ooh! ooh! sorry for posting so much, but can you do a video on the influence of Polka on 20th century music - Ragtime, Choro, Klezmer and so on?
Good topic!
Not to mention Sephardic Jewish spiritual music - esp with Cab Calloway.
I got to see that Bad Plus performance and it was great
I had been under the impression that, even if it didn't make it into his writing so much, Stravinsky was still a fan of jazz. Largely from that famous story of him being in a club watching I forget who, but a not-unknown jazz player with whom he was friends, and the player quoted one of Stravinsky's tunes and Igor apparently erupted with laughter and raucous cheering, spilling his drink everywhere. Anybody care to correct me here? Perhaps that was a rare instance of him going to a jazz jam. I'm sure it was him in the story at least though, even if my memory on the other details is hopeless 😅
There's another comment here that said it was Charlie Parker quoting Firebird during Koko. It seems legit. According to the book the other commenter cites, it happened pretty much exactly as you describe. Wish there was a recording.
Please do these kinds of analyses on all composers:)
When Paul Buckmaster was working with Miles Davis during the on the corner sessions she introduced miles to both the Bach Cello Suites and Karlheinz Stockhausen, who used the sort of directed free improvisation in his text pieces Für kommende Zeiten and Aus den sieben Tagen.
Stravinsky has also been extremely important for the more advanced corners of progressive rock, not just The Rite, but Les Noces and L'Histoire du Soldat in particular. Yes opened their early-70s concerts with a recording of the The Firebird finale, a theme which has been endlessly filched and fiddled with by prog bands. Dave Stewart's Canterbury bands Egg, Hatfield and the North and National Health all had deep Stravinsky influences. Christian Vander of Magma inhaled Les Noces, which along with Carl Orff, Wagner and John Coltrane, led to the genre he invented, Zeuhl. The Belgian chamber rock band Univers Zero promoted itself with "what Stravinsky would play if he had a rock band." The French mathcore band Ni explicitly uses the unpredictable interleaving of irregular motific fragments that Stravinsky perfected in the Sacrificial Dance.
I'm a rock/blues knucklehead type of guy, but I enjoy what you do with this channel as it helps to open my perspectives in music and gets me thinking in ways I never have and or expect... Thanks man
If you watched his other video about his non-classical interests, you’d find out David is a big funk guy. We aren’t confined to genres here :)
Not only enjoyable but very informative. My ears heard the similarities but you lay out why. Thanks D.B. Composer.
Dark ambient, but Stravinsky is probably the musician that inspired me the most.
Mostly the firebird.
I like Stravinsky for sure. Bartok too. Also Debussy. I had a teacher who insisted jazz players needed to study Bach. We don't listen to classical music to grasp swing. But all those composers among others have a lot of ideas thst we (jazz musicians) find interesting. I like your point that classical music is best when it doesn't try too hard to get "down with the kids". Nicely put.
Great video.
A few misconceptions here. Coltrane and Dolphy at numerous times both listed Schoenberg and the 2nd Viennese school as influences. If you read Eric Dolphys "Synthetic Formations" book, he clearly has tone rows from Schoenberg and Alban Berg written down as points of study. Considering the scope that the two of these musicians have had on the modern foundation of Jazz in the last 50 or so years, I would say that stating that the Atonal composers had less of an influence is at worst, like I said a total misconception. Their influence is also clearly visible in musicians like Anthony Braxton, George Lewis and many of the members of the AACM. Anthony and George in particular are two jazz musicians who were given the MacArthur Genius Grant for their contributions to the field of improvisation. Secondly, while I do agree with a lot of your indications about the similarities between Bitches Brew and The Rite of Spring, one must remember that Bitches Brew is an entirely improvised piece. As such, when you state that Miles Davis "made sure to include the Bass Clarinet" or even when you seem to imply that he had some sort of overall effect in the structuring of how the improvised pieces formed is not entirely accurate. Miles, was a man who meticulously picked members of his band. After this however, he is very much remembered by everyone who ever played with him as being a very hands off leader who basically left them to their own devices so that the "magic could happen". I personally think the overall result of Bitches Brew is at best, a total group/ensemble effort thanks to guys like Chick Corea, Dave Holland, Wayne Shorter, Jack DeJohnette etc... A lot of what is heard on the album are in the moment decisions being made by individual members of the band.
Misnomer means calling something by the wrong name (mis-nomer = wrong-name). So calling an incorrect fact a misnomer is in fact a misnomer.
This has no bearing at all on the point you were making... So, uh, carry on I guess.
LydianLights you’re right! I was typing hastily and got my terms messed up. A better word would be misconception
it's ironic how, given the "freedom" in jazz, it's intelligentsia tend to be rigid about murky topics like the sources of artistic style - -
Bryo Jafa what are you even talking about? Nothing I presented here is rigid or egotistical, in fact it merely indicates a wider and more eclectic set of influences than the video first suggested, which is in fact the opposite of rigid.
I'd say Debussy and Satie, because they're so mellow and moody and integrate rich colorful harmonies in their pieces. Also maybe Mozart because he wrote pop before it was called pop, jazz started after all as a melodic, dancable genre. In the 70s the jazzrockers Ekseption played Bach. Dave Brubeck had lots of intellectual classical references in his music. Fela Kuti studied Händel. Don Cherry played minimal music. I guess there are many different types of jazz musicians. :)
I really like the structure of this video! and the content of course, as always.
Stavins firebird suite is amazing.
Another great video - thanks David as always. I enjoy these sorts of videos on TH-cam, and I find them informative and useful in giving me ideas in my own compositions (distinctly amateur and performed by Sibelius and once or twice my local church's choir!). However, while I've had a solid foundation in music theory for a while, I've usually composed by 'feel' - a melody I like which I then go and harmonise and develop. Whenever I watch these sorts of videos I think, 'I'd like to try writing a ragtime piece', but I'm not quite sure how to do it. Do you sit down and think, 'I've got to get that syncopation between the right and left hand' and write a melody that fits the structure or 'this is a nice melody, but dang, it doesn't syncopate' and then shoehorn it into the classic rhythm? I've got to the point where I've got a fair amount of theory, but I find it nigh-on impossible to put into practice.
Anyway, I love Stravinsky. The Rite of Spring has been entrenched in my memory since I was a kid and watched Fantasia for the first time (the dinosaur segment). I don't think it's an accident I ended up becoming a geologist/palaeontologist and music enthusiast!
@mark heyne Absolutely! I was hooked on it as a kid (still love it) without really having a clue about the music aspect, but it really engrained in me a love of the music. I didn't understand just how interesting an experimental film it really was at the time.
I once heard the waltz in petrushka performed as a Samba by the a Jazz Ensemble. It worked out very well. I wish I could find a recording of it, it was done on the radio on station KPFK.
i would love to see a video about music fusion in video game music. I think you'd be at least intrigued by the music from the Castlevania series particularly the first 3 NES games. The composers do some interesting things in combining baroque (i think) music with more modern pop/rock styles.
8-bit music theory did a video about that.
@@HEHEHEIAMASUPAHSTARSAGA he did and i loooove that video. i just think it'd be interesting to hear another perspective on the subject of video game music particularly from someone whose focus is not on video games.
I would love any David Bruce video on video game music.
amen bröther
I am surprised you didn't mention Stravinsky's Three Pieces for Clarinet. The mournfulness of the first movement, the freedom of the second and the syncopation of the third definitely sound like it had a jazz influence. Although there is question whether it was written in 1918 or 1919, by coincidence, Stravinsky's friend Ernest Ansermet became an important figure in the jazz world by writing what is considered the first jazz review in 1919. Ansermet wrote the review about Will Marion Cook's Southern Syncopated Orchestra and gushed about the playing of Sydney Bechet. Some accounts say Mr. Stravinsky accompanied Mr. Ansermet to jazz performances. If you know the Three Pieces and Mr. Bechet's playing, it definitely sounds like Mr. Stravinsky must have heard Mr. Bechet or a recording of a Creole clarinet player.
It just so happens to be that ragtime is my favorite genre and I compose classical music
I heard (I believe from a Rick Beato clip) that baroque period composers didn't have "chords" but "lines" that made "harmonic moments", just like that quote from the comparison of Stravinsky and Miles Davis.
I sometimes have "harmonic moments" ... but then I think about my life ... ;)
That sounds like something Rick would say. Those harmonic moments are the “points” you counter in counterpoint. They have chords, but lack what we think of as chord progressions, and even in the latter part of baroque, they’re there, just not continuous. Most people are aware of the horizontal variations (different rhythms) that make up a phrase and then realign on a given beat; it’s the same vertically as well with a given chord. We still very much do this with mashups nowadays.( Adam Neeley has a good video on quodlibets)
The baroque already had functional harmony and homophonic-melodic music, and even the most contrapunctal pieces almost always have some homophonic moments (chord progressions).
it was adam neely who said it in his recent video about chords
@@ylonmc2 He may, but I didn't. Anyways, I lost all respect for Neely when he made the car practice video.
that
Loved this one!
Stravinsky (and Bartok) are also very popular with heavy metal musicians. Abrasive and powerful rhythms, and grandiosity .
Your videos are really cool, sir. Yes, more. Please. Thank you.
**Laughs in Fb/Eb7**
Fb u wot m8
The chord is written as Fb-Ab-Cb-Fb-... in the original score (Rite of spring)
It could have been written as E-G#-H-E-... as well though
+DerSibbe Agrees in 11 beats of D minor 7th over F major...?
Did I get the individual chords right?
LOL
Interesting video. I have subscribed. I like Stravinsky because, like good jazz, his works challenge the listener. He was unconventional, like Charlie Parker and several other great jazz musicians.
Yes i am a "jazz guy" who has studied Igor and Bela, Debussy, Ravel etc. To me music is some magic force and all inclusive. Jazz
has the African influence rhythmically as the strongest element. (For me in any case). Thank you very much for all of your vlogs!
Jazzy or not, Stravinsky is incredible. I sometimes feel his music is a bit cold or detached, but he was definitely one of the very greatest.
I read where Joe Zawinul and Jaco Pastorius (and probably the other Weather Report musicians) talked Stravinsky during long trips. I gathered that Zawinul was introducing him to the others.
Stravinsky, Debussy, Dvorak, Ravel, and Bartok... Will be found in books on Jelly Roll Morton, James P Johnson, Willie the lion Smith... In the history of jazz those five guys always come up
I have played Golliwogs Cake Walk before... bless my soul...
You asked for personal observations so if I may be so bold: I typically use improvisation (which is very much a jazz thing) and modern music technology to (try to) grow in the direction of composers like Stravinsky, Bartok, Ravell, etc.. I have the feeling that there still is quite a big chasm between conventional composers and, say, composing musicians in that respect. People like Stravinsky and Schonberg stepped on the toes of the establishment when they where young to shy away from the full implications of their early output when they became established themselves. Being a bit of a philistine however keeps music fresh. Stravinsky and jazzers certainly have that in common. But even jazz itself has for a big part fallen victim of it's own traditions. Since the heady days of 70's and 80's fusion one can for instance observe a very difinite step back to the established acoustic instruments, ensemble forms and styles. I personally prefer to use the best of both worlds. To not be too analitical but also to not use ultimate (suposed) freedom of improvisation as an excuse to keep running round in circles. I hope!
Very cool, very informative video.
Nice. I'd love to hear you expound more on the "March" from the Soldier's Tale, arguably the swingiest Stravinsky of all. Over the ostinato bass "stride" line (that you already mentioned), he creates wild syncopations by writing mixed meters while the bass marches on. Extra points for forcing the conductor to conduct the syncopations, not the beat, which is backwards from how syncopation is usually conducted - turning the conductor into a weird "jazz puppet" as it were. Thanks, and more Stravinsky, please!
I love you links for reference. Thank you
Most jazz musicians I've known have a real appreciation of all kinds of music, especially classical. Coleman Hawkins apparently listened to almost nothing but classical music at home. People who are real musicians don't care about categories. Ellington said, "If it sounds good it IS good."
A more obvious reason was that Stravinsky was *everywhere* , he was a celebrity who was *famous, famous, famous* in the 20th century like no other, his music was everywhere, his image was everywhere, he was a master of the media with no equal in the classical space all through the first three quarters of the 20th century. Radio, television, concert hall, he was inescapable! Why did jazz musicians 💋💋💋 Stravinsky? because they were most familiar with him and his music
please do continue to talk about him!
Bennie Maupin... the player is Bennie in Bitches Brew who is responsible for all those bass clarinet notes. Give the man his flowers sir!
I love your video, my dear!
Content: balanced as always.
Style: 50p, yeah! An keep up with the animations, they make me smile.
I think form also plays a part in this. Composers like Brahms or Bruckner continue the tradition of Beethoven in creating long form works using thematic development, telling a coherent story with a beginning, a middle and an end. Stravinski, Debussy or Satie avoid this tradition of thematic development, preferring to cut between different static musical moments, not unlike a cinematic montage rapidly cutting between shots. This of course appeals to Jazz musicians who are all about exprsssing themselves through those musical moments.
3 years on an I don't understand these two statement being able to live in the same space. ' thematic development'. ' 'static musical moments'. However, I'm 4 sheets to the wind. Please feel free to igonore this stupid development in your TH-cam life.
Спасибо!)
Great vid!
As a questionable-musician, speaking on behalf of my dubious musician friends, I can confirm we like Stravinsky too.
Well fine David I think I will finally listen to the Rite of spring now finally
Would you do a video about the Brazilian "choro" genre? It's very complex and interesting and, as I Brazilian myself, I feel that not many people outside of Brazil know about it.
I want more jazz videos
Also, any love for Bernstein Prelude Fugue and Riffs?
I've long thought the opening, at least, of the Bernstein is more than an echo of the opening of the Symphony of Wind Instruments (as is Birtwistle's Tragoedia).
@@henrygingercat I hear it too..... Don't know the Birtwistle, will check it out...
David Bruce, you forgot to mention Hubert Laws' version of 'Rites of 'Spring.' The other thing worth mentioning is harmonics and not syncopation so much as you mentioned [the approach established by Ornette Coleman is called harmolodics] All of the Great Composers long before Stravinsky are very important to the jazz musician. An important approach to consider would be is to start on the Bach and finish with Debussy...Gotcha
The Rite of Spring is metal AF.
If I have my jazz 'hat' on, my favourite is Dumbarton Oaks. Then again, depends what you mean by 'jazz'! For me personally, wah trumpets and glissing trombones have me reaching for the off switch.
There are plenty of jazz elements in The Rite - it has loads of syncopation and polyrhythms. The primal-ness of much of it bears much resemblance to the jungle sound that Duke Ellington incorporated later also.
As a jazz musician, I definitely agree that Stravinsky was a bad dude. In general, I enjoy a lot of the impressionist and post-impressionist classical music of the 20th century, from Mahler to Shostakovitch to Ravel to Holst. I'd say also that film composers John Williams and Bernhard Hermann are huge loves of a lot of jazz musicians, both of who have very deep knowledge of classical styles and can create authentic jazz when they want. Think of Williams' Cantina Dance from Star Wars and Hermann's score for Taxi Driver.
Catch Me If You Can is great Jazz score by Williams. Williams was active as an arranger and jazz pianist in NYC in the 50s (confusingly there was another John Williams who played jazz piano at about the same time, but not the same guy, I don't think movie JW was recorded..) But I mentioned Prelude Fugue and Riffs (Bernstein) cos for me that gets into the spirit of big band music in a big way. So it helps if you spent some time in NYC probably?
When I was studying jazz in uni a lot of profs told me to listen to Ravel.
David, as a logical extension of this topic it would be interesting to hear your comments on the influence of Stravinsky and Varese on Frank Zappa. In hearing many of Frank's (he denied that his music was jazz) and his mates interviews (don't ever mention the J word around him) you see a definite barrier being put up. It seems to me that Frank's music (eg. with LSO ) gains increasing attention from the classical world, especially in Europe. While in the US, his music is stuck in the Rock or Alternative genres and rarely to be found in the offerings in Jazz bins, let alone in a classical context. I've read that he wanted it that way because he dreaded the association with Jazz which was collapsing in popularity at the time and insisted his music was rock. Frank himself claims Stravinsky and Varese as primary influences and Blues and Doo Wop as secondary. I find it hard to believe that he wasn't heavily influenced by Jazz. Your thoughtful comments are greatly appreciated.
Zappa liked several Jazz artists and mentioned them in the list on the "Freak Out" album but they were more of the avant guarde side of jazz like Eric Dolphy (which Zappa wrote a tribute piece too), Cecil Taylor, Bill Evans and Roland Kirk. He also expressed admiration for Oscar Pettiford, Thelonious Monk and Charlie Mingus and said Mingus music had balls - Also two of his albums had Jazz in the title, "Make a Jazz Noise Here" and "Jazz From Hell" and his album "Hot Rats" was one of the first Jazz Fusion albums and was released earlier than "Bitches Brew." And on "Broadway the Hard Way" Zappa plays Oliver Nelsons piece "Stolen Moments" so yes without a doupt Zappa was also influenced by Jazz.
Subbed. Sweet video!
I vaguely recall once being related a quote from Stravinsky, when asked if he had anything to say about the way jazz musicians related to rhythm compared to (I think) classical. From memory I believe he answered that in general jazz musicians understanding of rhythm was constrained because instead of feeling true rhythm they were slaves to "the beat".
If any one knows of the exact quote and/or source I'd appreciate a head's up by way of reply.
Edit: I've found the reference, in R Craft's "Conversations with Igor Stravinsky" Pg 131
Warning :may change jazz cats feelings of warmth toward Stravinsky, lol.
"IS: Jazz is a different fraternity altogether, a wholly dif-
ferent kind of music making. It has nothing to do
with composed music and when it seeks to be in-
fluenced by contemporary music it isn't jazz and it
isn't good. Improvisation has its own time world,
necessarily a loose and large one, since only in an
imprecisely limited time could real improvisation be
worked up to; the stage has to be set, and there must
be heat. The percussion and bass (not the piano;
that instrument is too hybrid, and besides most of
the players have just discovered Debussy) function as
a central heating system. They must keep the tem-
perature "cool," not cool. It is a kind of masturbation
that never arrives anywhere (of course) but that
supplies the "artificial" genesis the art requires. The
point of interest is instrumental virtuosity, instru-
mental personality, not melody, not harmony, and
certainly not rhythm. Rhythm doesn't exist really
because no rhythmic proportion or relaxation exists.
Instead of rhythm there is "beat." The players beat
all the time, merely to keep up and to know which
side of the beat they are on. The ideas are instru-
mental, or, rather, they aren't ideas because they
come after, come from the instruments. Shorty Rog-
ers's trumpet playing is an example of what I mean
by instrumental derivation, though his trumpet is
really a deep-bored, bugle-sounding instrument which
reminds me of the keyed bugles I liked so much and
..."
"most of the players have just discovered Debussy)" OUCH
"It is a kind of masturbation that never arrives anywhere" DOUBLE OUCH
"Instead of rhythm there is "beat." " TRIPLE OUCH
Fascinating. Thanks.
would you say Debussy was also an "early" jazz type writer. There are piano pieces of his that have very jazz like sounding chords.
Erik Satie's Gnossiennes has some jazz sounding chords too, especially the harmonic movements can be jazz-like.
@TacoTacoTacoTaco Ravel's "jeux d'eau" is a direct nod and piece played in respect to Liszts' "jeux d'eau a la villa d'este". You should listen to it if you haven't already! It's extremely phenomenal and ridiculously beautiful (hence why Ravel wrote his own 'tribute' to it). Late Liszt was indeed the bridge to the impressionistic era and many of his late pieces are considered "pre-impressionistic".
I wonder if there's some Stravinsky influence in Monk's chord voicings - plenty of 2nds and near-clusters in both.
I find a lot of similarities between Ornette Coleman's and later Jarrett with Charlie Hayden in the 70s oh yeah also most of the group work of David Holland's process related group improvisational polytonality and Stravinsky's intentional polytonality. Like compressed strings of seemingly unrelated melodic resolutions over a freely chromatic improvised bass line. This can start to sound like the brilliant humorous cold shower of "A history of a Solder"
Chopin's E minor prelude sounds really jazzy to me
Stravinsky was important enough to the English progressive rock group Yes to have a recording of the ending of the Firebird "piped in" as the members of the band took their places.
I would think another contributor would just be his geography. He lived and worked in Los Angeles for a long time. In times when there was a lot going on in the jazz world. Another example of classical and jazz "intermingling" if you will, would actually take place at the same time and in the same place with La Monte Young and his time spent playing with Coleman and Higgins in LA. Maybe I'm wrong but I would imagine there was an awareness and general respect among musicians in LA for Igor and the work he was doing over in West Hollywood. Though I could be romanticizing.
Also Captain Beefheart was around... just throwing that out there cause why not.
The orchestral hit from Firebird. Heh.
Hi. First of all, thank you for this awesome content. As someone quite new to composing, can you suggest a "must read" book for orchestration? I just finished basic harmony and jazz-harmony, but cant find something to really get into composition for orchester ect.
The Study of Orchestration by Samuel Adler seems to be the best and most up to date, it even comes with videos and audio files.
Thank you- this will be a nice christmas present for myself.
Yeah, I absolutely recommend it^^^!
I suppose there's the Jazz Theory Book by Levine, but you're probably better off reading the octatonic system of tonal organisation, it's free to download from Academia.edu