How to Write a Good First Officer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Spacedock delves into some examples of great XO's and similar second-in-commands from various works of science fiction.
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This is something that every military sci-fi author needs to see. Too often, an author has no idea what to do with the XO.
well...let's be honest, none of them have any idea how any part of the military works. Officers repairing equipment, officers conducting assaults, officers leading initial landings...pffft. In 30 years of service I never saw an officer of ANY rank perform ANY labor that was in ANY way manual labor. That is what Privates are for. And NCOs exist to supervise Privates, lead squads on missions, handle the administration of the organization, repair equipment, shoot at the enemy, etc.
So until I see a sci-fi franchise that has officers actually performing officer jobs, I'm done with it all. Hell, officers don't even perform most of the work on the bridge of a ship...remember folks, officers decide WHAT should be done. NCOs decide HOW to do it.
@@nco_gets_it Well, It depends on the situation. If they are guerrillas officers might be leading charges and doing manual stuff.
@@nco_gets_it There are some Sci-Fi books ive read that do that fairly well imho, but then again i dont have a clue myself. The Honor Harrington books come to mind, and ive just started Empire Rising that seems to do it that way too.
The Terran Privateer books also did something like that iirc.
@@nco_gets_it Since interstellar space vessels don't really need much crew only really a need a CO as a backup captain in the case of emergency. Of course highly automated ships are boring.
@@nco_gets_it This seems service dependent, and trade dependent as well. Most of the infantry captains I know are usually right there in the shit with the lads; I know some highly technical officers who both advise, and perform technical analysis; I know some pilots (nuff said on that one).
That being said, once you start getting into OCs, COs, and OCCs, having the clear division between the officer side of the house, and the NCM side is far more important. Orders become less 'hasty', and more deliberate; and the sgt maj type is more about high level morale/deportment, vice the platoon WO who ensures discipline and the like.
So really, it all comes down to 'setting dependent' lol
To make a comparison to the 5 Man Band trope, the XO is almost always the Lancer, a direct foil to the commander.
Picard is a gentleman, but Riker is a bold gentleman.
Boldly coming? 😉
@@IAmTheAce5 Boldly coming--I mean, boldly going where no one has gone before
Kirk is fly by the seat while Spock was by the book. You get that often... but in military you both would be by the book. But it is the oddest part in SciFi how extraordinary the Captain/Leaders gets into those roles. B5 the captains are "chosen" unique personas and not appointed.
I'm kind of amazed he didn't mention the chemistry between Kirk and Spock from the modern movies
@@boxhead6177 though I think in Star Trek for example, we mostly see their explorer ships, that probably have far more autonomy and are meant to work on their own more or less. Like you can't even really work by any book, when you deal with the unknown, like for sure there can be vague guidelines, but in the end a predefined set of rules simply can't accommodate stuff nobody knew about while writing it. So stuff like Spock as the first officer, dealing mostly with the internal affairs of the ship, which are a known, so you can work by the books perfectly fine. And the captain mostly dealing with the external affairs of the ship which can be totally unique, requiring a whole lot of flexibility to deal with, makes sense, I think.
I serve the captain; but I stand for the crew.
-Worf
... or when he got chewed out by Data (acting captain) for disrepcting his decisions on the Bridge
@@boxhead6177 that was an amazing moment between those two.
@@boxhead6177 Which is a lesson he learned before he made that statement.
In real life, at least on American warships, the captain and the XO almost never see each other. At sea, warships generally have a day shift and a night shift. The captain is generally in charge of the 12-hour day shift and the XO is generally in charge of the 12 hour night shift. In a crisis or if a big decision takes place while the XO is in charge, he wakes the captain up and either asks him what to do (if it’s not life threatening) or simply turns command over to him until further notice.
In a combat situation, the Captain is in charge, and the XO’s primary job is damage control: assigning repair crews, fixing leaks, putting out fires, etc. It goes without saying that they’re not hanging out in the bridge all day, looking over each other’s shoulders.
And in fact the Captain and XO are seldom on the bridge at all. The captain is in the bridge at the beginning of his shift, does whatever start-of-shift duties there are, and then turns things over to the Officer of the Day, and then runs around the ship all day doing Captain things. (THere’s not a lot of sitting involved one place involved, it’s a pretty active job). The OOD will contact the captain whenever something noteworthy happens, and the captain will check in for periodic updates. He’ll turn up again at the end of the shift to do whatever duties need to be wrapped up at the end of the shift, and hand it over to the XO, who, himself, will turn things over to the nighttime Officer of the Day, and then go do basically the same thing the Captain does during the day.
Arguably none of this has *ever* been done on a ship-based science fiction show.
I think it's because it would inflate the character count, or so the writers/show runners view it. By compressing the roles into two people, they don't need to find twice as many good acting talents.
It was something of the sort in the beginning of Battlestar Galactica, when they were constantly running, calculating jumps to stay ahead of the enemy, so the captain and the XO worked in shifts for many days.
@@Sorain1well we also don’t really witness the mundane day-to-day operations of the ships. We see them when the crazy stuff happens so all the senior staff is summoned to the bridge.
There are also styles of CO/XO that will vary on platform. Bubbleheads versus Carrier leadership is a prime example.
Our CO was good dad and XO was mean dad. It worked for them (until XO was too mean and got fired).
Closest thing I saw to it was in New Frontier where Shelby was the first officer while another character was the Executive Officer who was only duty when Captain Calhoun and Commander Shelby were not.
Tigh was such a great character and brilliantly acted.
Loved the Bulldog episode, man that one scene hit close to home.
"So how do you put that bottle away, Saul?"
"I don't know.... One day you just decide to get up and walk out of your room."
I like how they reference the OG BSG episode Fire In Space, when Tigh was in charge of damage control after a nuke hit Galactica. Tigh made the hard call to vent the air and put out the fire, losing possibly 100 lives vs losing the ship.
@@thatHARVguy Yep, Tigh was an asshole, but you knew he was in it with you.
Cold opening with Commander Ivanova gets the insta-like.
At least Kira managed to get a promotion of sorts in the final season of DS9
Although Kira acted as first officer she was only the liason between Starfleet and the Bajoran Militia.
@@barbarossarotbart She was both.
I liked that she and Sisko are effectively on the same rank, since Commander - Major and Captain - Colonel are the same in different branches (Navy - Ground forces)
Susan's Grandfather had a saying:; "Good news can wait. Bad news will refuse to leave."
15 seconds in.. CUT ! WE ARE FINISHED! :-)
No matter how many times I watch BSG. It always blows me away when I see episodes from the pilot series. How young and not worn down the crew and ship are compared to how they are at seasons end. The bright, well maintained corridors of the Galactica are dirty, barely lit, and showing its age and the accumulated battle damage by the end of the series. Which matches its crew. Most, if not all of the crew are civilians and families. And everyone down to janitors have seen horrors that have broken many people but these warriors, these survivors, percever until the bitter end. Just like the battered and scarred but yet still mighty vessel that bares them aloft still so they can finally get that tomorrow they have fought for so valiantly.
Gonna watch it again pretty soon here 😂
That's something I fully appreciate the effort being put in on. It's something that subtly reinforces the narrative in a meaningful way.
It's amazing how far these shows have progressed by now. Just 20 years ago, it was widely understood that, if a regular character left a show, it was for a reason in the real world, like the actor finding a better job somewhere else.
The idea of a regular character leaving or dying because it is part of a good story is still a young concept. There is a reason why Ed Starks decapitation was such a revolutionary moment.
Then the show outran the books and the change in quality was clear.
B5 still written better than anything today, most shows still hot garbage.
I think that's mostly due to the story line format becoming more common, than the episodic format.
Episodic is way less common today. A regular character leaving a episodic show takes away from the story, while in a serialised show, it can be done without problems.
Man, whoever did those 2d roadrunner style hallway extension paintings in ds9 did a pretty good job. It took me a long time to notice those.
I guess I should be paying more attention?
The Star Trek Online devs talked about that when they were building the DS9 map.
@@thatHARVguy i know the layout and still get lost there
I thought that Colonel Ty was a fantastically written and acted character. Good XO, not every time, but really well done.
I love seeing Ivanova in this, because she's absolutely brilliant.
But I also want to give a shout-out to Lieutenant Commander Alistair McKeon, who gets off on a rocky start with a certain Commander Harrington after feeling passed over, but steps into the role after they talk things out and ends up becoming one of her closest friends.
Sadly Honor Harrington receive no love on this channel and is constantly ignore.
This needs to be required watching for anyone doing military sci-fi. Or military anything on a ship/boat.
I love how badriguel from gundam seed was showed. She was competent and bad ass.
And gets an attack named after her in the FREEDOM movie.
Saul Tigh was a trainwreck, and therefore my favorite XO. And thank you for mentioning Crimson Tide; I have to go re-watch that!
Army Officer who just left command here. The XO is such an essential part of any organization. While the Commander has only two jobs. Make decisions and assume risk. He is a politician, a future planner, and represents the organization to exterior units and organizations, the XO handles everything interior to the organization and is ready to step in at a momemts notice. Current Operations and Execution (hence the name), maintenance, Logistics and generally the day to day for everything excluding personnel readiness fall in the XOs lane. But often overlooked is how absolutely vital a Commander's Senior Enlisted Advisor (SEA) is. The Sergeant Major of First Sergeant, those are the ones that manage personnel issues and readiness. Scifi does a terrible job on this because they consolidate this role into the XO or Commander. But both positions are the left and right hands of the Commander. The best example is from We Were Soldiers in the role of CSM Plumley. Stoic, hard and uncompromising in standards. The SEA, is an attack dog. He is the enforcer of the organization. If an officer is shouting at people, he isn't doing his job and is generally considered undignified in the position. While I was in command, I never had to raise my voice because I had a First Sergeant to aggressively enforce discipline and allow me to show a calm, confident, vision focused demeanor in the face of difficult situations.
Scifi does terrible job with NCOs in general.
@TealJosh I one of the best examples of an NCO in scifi is Gunnery Sergeant Apone in Aliens. He enforced discipline in the Soldiers, was the backbone of the squad, and executed his Platoon Commander's orders as best as he could. I would have loved to see 2LT Gorman be more competent, but that was a plot point of the movie. In my time in the US Army as an officer, LTs are way more often like 1LT Fick in Generation Kill than they are 2LT Gorman.
"Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see. God sent me."
Beat me to it.
One of the best B5 monologues, and there were a lot to choose from!
@@MikeS_982 Absolutely. Great space battle to back her statement up as well. Love B5.
37 seconds, and Natarle appears. So perfect, thank you. :)
Excellent breakdown, as someone who has served as an XO in the Army, it’s always very important that the XO and Commander have a positive working relationship. Entire units live and die by the abilities of the command structure, XOs have to be the one that supports the leader and ensures that there is no confusion on the state of the team.
i still think gundam seed did an amazing job with their first officer. she starts as the "by the books" counter to the capitain more emotional and motherly nature. and then, she leaves the ship, and becomes the capitain of a new ship that is basically an identical version of the one she was first officer of.
they fight each other a few times, and she is ALWAYS the superior capitain, but, its only after going through the weight of being a capitain that she starts to respect and understand her former colleague.
Best opening to a video ever
Congratulations, you've also described the relationahip between the Commander and First Sergeant/Command Sergeant Major in the US military.
I think one of the best depictions of a first officer is that if Celesta Wright in the Black Fleet Trilogy written by Joshua Dalzelle. It’s a space navel drama and has some of the best bridge dialogue I have read. She is a great example of how a By the Rules officer can learn to be flexible and still work well with her Captain. If you want a story that feels like you are on a functioning bridge of a starship then the books of the Black Fleet Trilogy are a great place to start.
Great episode. A refreshing change of pace.
But needs more T'pol.
Good to see seed got mentioned. The interaction between Murrue and Natarle is great CO-XO relation
personal experience from the U.S. Navy i saw the Colonel Tigh approach used. more often the captain gets to be the moral symbol and rallying point while the X.O. gets to be the harsh micromanaging task master. where it gets awkward is the 18 month term of the two positions where the X.O. replaces the prior captain. while enlisted typically stay for 4-5 year terms onboard a single ship. senior officers at the command level get shuffled around. making it a real task to truly get attached to a particular captain/ X.O. approach to ship operations.
You had me at Ivanova.
This really just make me remember I need to say how much I love your videos!
The best XOs in the military play the part of the "bad guy"--taking the thankless and hardass jobs so the commander still retains the confidence of the troops.
This is an interesting take on the job of an executive officer, and for the most part, quite right. I say that, being an XO myself. One curious facet in Star Trek is using the term "Number One" as a nickname for the XO (one that I also encourage for myself). I recall the years before STNG when fans wondered about Number One from the original pilot episode, and if that was her actual name. I appreciated that attempt by the scriptwriters to get some international flair into the often-times American-centric series by using the term, but unfortunately, they actually got it wrong, and Star Trek continues to do so.
For those interested, Royal Navy ships used to always have a "First Lieutenant", who was the senior lieutenant in the ship. Since Lieutenant Commanders were considered just a senior lieutenant up until recent times (so not the equivalent of an Army major), they were often the First Lieutenant in larger ships.
In smaller ships, the First Lieutenant was ALSO the XO. So First Lieutenant was not synonymous with XO - they just happened to often perform both roles. But this was in small ships only.
In larger ships, such as cruisers, carriers and battleships, the CO was usually a full Naval captain, and the XO a full commander. He was thus called "The Commander" and nicknamed "The Bloke". But he was not the First Lieutenant or "Number One." The First Lieutenant was essentially third in command in larger ships, AFTER The Commander and the CO. And "First Officer" is a Merchant Navy rank, as apposed to being a Naval appointment, but this is how Star Trek has got around using the British term "Number One" for all the executive officers in the series.
It is, incidentally, a little nonsensical that every commanding officer in the series has the rank of captain, as this has not been Naval practice for literally hundreds of years. Small or unimportant ships do not require such experienced officers to command them, hence officers as junior as lieutenants commanding vessels as large as destroyers.
In the Thrawn Ascendancy novels, Thrawn and his first officer Samakro have a nice dynamic. Thrawn is unconventional and prone to stretching military doctrine, Samakro is a more strict believer in the regulations and dislikes Thrawn playing fast and loose with them. However, he also knows that the ship needs to function for the good of the Ascendancy and their own survival as their missions take them closer to and sometimes over the line of strict adherence to Chiss policy.
The Right Hand Man is always an interesting contrast to The Boss. Whether it's a bodyguard, an assistant, or the XO. And yeah, when writing, there needs to be that contrast. Trek has generally done a good job with that. I think the 2000s BSG did... okay, but went a bit too grimderp in later seasons. I remember how OG BSG had an interesting dynamic with Tigh vs Adama, very similar almost to Sisko and Kira.
In fantasy, I liked how The Two Towers basically invented an XO for Theodan, because the actor and writers said "No, the king doesn't give the orders, the king says what to do, and someone else gives the orders." So they created the character of Háma, who just with some looks and certain actions does a pretty good job as a number two.
Babylon 5 mentioned, this will be good episode to watch!
On behalf of all beings with ears, thank you for actually reading this yourself instead of hiring a robot.
Love the footage from Star Trek, the Orville, and especially Mobile Suit Gundam Seed
Col. Tigh actually progressed much as a leader as you can see if you put the scenes you mentioned in chronological order. The Tigh who stepped up and organized a freaking rebellion(!) on New Caprica was a far cry from the one who struggled when Adama was on the surgical table.
I think this is also part of the "main characters" syndrome, where in a real approach, most of what we see in media simply wouldn't happen; for example, we wouldn't see most of the main characters on the bridge in most instances. Take TNG - Data, Worf, etc. as department heads/chiefs would be working with their own people and their own offices; instead the tactical officer on the bridge would be some low ranking Security officer, same with Ops and the rest. Wesley manning the conn was actually right in that regard. But if it's mostly no-names with occasional appearances by the main cast in staff meetings and as necessary by departments, it wouldn't work that well. Going way back to the original TOS "The Cage", we very briefly actually see this, with all the department heads we never see again giving input at one point.
It's entirely forgivable as it gives an ensemble a lot more to do, allow greater fan association, and considerably tightens the narrative pacing.
With so many episodes and so many great characters, TNG is just an easy example of that convenience. Just like how after Wolf 359 most of them wouldn't be on the ship anymore. Riker would get the Enterprise, Picard would be at Starfleet command working with the Anti-Borg division, Worf, Data, and others would be getting commands to replace the lost fleet and crew. Or "Yesterday's Enterprise" where the war is going badly, but they're all there.
Got teased for whole episode of Murrue Ramius and Natarle Badgiruel yet heard nothing of them. Theirs was a weird situation, as one was a technician officer while other was a bridge crew, yet they suddenly found themselves as the captain and XO of a ship.
Tigh is an alcoholic but on BSG thats pretty common. Basically the first thing they do after they are no longer under the threat of imminent death in like the 3rd or 4th episode is build massive stills & pretty much every character drinks constantly
Another dynamic that probably works better for individual stories rather than a full series, is throwing a fleet officer into the mix as well. An admiral barging in and taking command of a cast of liked characters for some wider plot event and potentially conflicting with what the main cast has going on, both in how they run things, and potentially even their objectives.
Maybe the captain wants to rush to the aid of a fellow vessel, but the Admiral won't let them because risking the flagship like that would risk the whole operation. The XO and captain on opposite sides of supporting or opposing the Admirals course of action, etc.
Worf and Data... what a character moment!
Colonel Tigh is definitely a man you can have a beer with.
As you said the CO has far more character flexibility. I've always thought after captain Lorca and captain Pike Saru should have stayed the captain of discovery. Burnham being science officer or second in command would have always been on the bridge part of the main action and the chain of command but still able to go on their own side quests as they don't have a ship to run.
at 01:52 i heard "drinking some copium" in such away it reminded me of Narc, the dude that covers Ashes Of Creation.... and now i can't unhear it... very unlucky for my brain :D
Commander Riker is the sort of XO that can only exist in a fictional world that pays little more than lip service to reality. When Riker is introduced in Encounter at Farpoint, he's revealed to have been offered a command of his own by Star Fleet and turned it down to be the XO of the flagship. No. Just no. This is not a thing an officer can do. If an officer refuses an offer of command, their career is essentially over at that point. Riker wouldn't have the position of XO of the Enterprise as an option. In a real-world scenario in which Riker did that, he would be assigned to a neutral zone observation post where he would stay for as long as it took to finally get the message that he might as well resign his commission. If memory serves, Riker turned down a command of his own two more times throughout the course of the series. Madness!
Ivanova!
I know it is not sci-fi or any military scenario. First thing that popped into my mind was Hotel Babylon (BBC tv series, 2006-2009) episode 1. Where Rebecca asks Charlie what is his pourpose in the hotel.
Any video about 1st officers starting off at 0:00 with an Ivanova Monologue is going to be good.
I love your intro, because babylon 5 is amazing and ivanova was one of the better characters in the series
Well, you can understand Riker - better being the second man on the first ship of Starfleet, boldly going out there, than being the first man on some random stellar cartography cruiser, let alone a desk job at a space dock.
And when he finally hoes... "It's the Titan!"
I'd say waiting has paid off.
I'm gonna use this for the difference between an admiral and her flag captain, it should work, but if anyone has a suggestion on changing it I wouldn't mind
You know a video is gonna be solid when it opens with a quote from god.
Will there be boom today?
I'm surprised you didn't mention Riker's mistakes in Chain of Command.
And they act like strong women didn't exist in media before 2012
For me the earliest I know is Rose Sayer from 1951's 'The African Queen', which is the name of a boat BTW. Interestingly enough, technically she is the XO there. Just technically as the crew is made up of two people.
That's because they have a political agenda.
You could name good female characters or even real-life people until you collapse (Romulan Right of Statement!), and they'd just keep screaming about being discriminated against.
Well, there were certainly fewer. Ivonova was a great one. I never really bought Major Kira as one, owing to a combination of fairly poor writing and questionable acting choices, but the intention was there. I bailed on Voyager after the first season, so I don’t have an informed opinion on Janeway. There’s Samantha Carter from SG1 who’s awesome. There’s Starbuck from the RDM Galactica who - to me, anyway - is kind of a mess in the first couple seasons, and seemed more incoherently angry than strong, but after New Caprica she became kinda the best character on the show. There’s Dr. Weir from Atlantis who starts out as basically an administrator but gradually grows better and more confident and more impressive over the course of the show, which was a great character arc…..and then they pointlessly killed her. Dammit.
In truth, part of the problem is that there weren’t a lot of men who knew how to write for women, and there’ve always been more male writers than female, sooooo…..for ever Ivonova, there’s a couple Lytas.
“INBOUND CYLON RAIDER! Emergency Viper malfunction, will launch in 45 sec.”
Col Tigh: “This will be over in 45 seconds.”
Adama: “This will be over in 45 seconds.”
BSG is second-to-none in how well the XO and Capt fit together.
I always liked Pressley from Mass Effect 1 on the first Normandy. Who the heck was my 2nd in command in ME3? Ashley? I know the XO in ME2 was Miranda.
i've seen a few CO/XO pairings in my day. There's definitely more like Tigh out there (minus the drink) than the Rikers. Sci fi has never portrayed things realistically though. In ST everybody is an officer except Chuef Obrien
Goddamn, I love Saul Tigh.
Ivanovo believed that if she was giving the difficult order to fire on other Earth Alliance ships, the she’d have to be willing to do the same thing.
Ivonava was my favorite XO .... the humor/sarcasm to deal with stressful situations while not afraid to get into the fight.
Rikers interaction with Barkley were necessary to show the growth of Riker. He was making a mistake and the captain stepped in to guide him.
Tai is a hard one to pin down..... because of the really terrible plot twist..... is he making situations worse on purpose? BSG for reasons I will never understand was a ratings superstar but the SCI-FI Channel did everything in it's power to sabotage it by moving it's showtimes and days around before rushing the ending.
Very interesting topic and many good examples.
So in short, write XO as Alfred to Batman?
Surprised to not see ashford here. Glad to see Zoe although she only got like 3 seconds at the end
for some reason i was really expecting them to mention tillys brief stint as first officer in discovery.
*listens to how awesome XO's can be* And then there's Chakotay.....
Ivanova is God!
SO SAY WE ALL!!!
i mean i would want riker no matter what, but as a character tigh was the best because of how deep his development was and how we reacted to him. indifferent to hated to loved to ... cylon. he spanned the gamut
So you're not Jellico is what I'm reading...
@@Sephiroth144 he was a good bad guy. riker had a few of them
Sigh... I see you at the end there. Lasky was unfortunately wasted as a character.
You get a like, just for mentioning the almighty Ivonova.
The XOs in MechWarrior 5 and HBS's Battletech game feel useless at times. Nothing like being told enemies are on an interception course but not told what direction (MW 5) or being told of enemy signatures only once I'm already being shot at. (Battletech)
the next would be the captains of ship great leaders there ideas battle tactics
I'm a simple girl, I see Saul Tigh, I click
"...not only are they both in command of the same shi-"
Wait! WHAT?!
There is ONLY ever ONE "Commander" of a ship, ONE "Captain".
The authority of lower ranking officers, from First Officer on down to the lowest Ensign, is derived solely from the authority of the person "at the top".
A good first officer is one that makes for good eye candy
The commanding officer is ashore. XO Pressly has the deck.
Ah I see that's burned into your brain as much as it is mine.
- hoojiwana from Spacedock
Logged: the commanding officer is aboard. XO Pressly stands relieved.
RIP Pressly
I like how they did away with this in 2 since they technically aren’t military in that game(even tho it is mentioned that Miranda is second in command). But then in ME3 they’re back in the military and we still don’t get this back. Who even is XO in 3? Liara is using the XOs office, but she’s not Alliance so it can’t be her.
@@PaulXPZ There's actually a mod for ME3 which gives you a lot of small additions, including the ability to pick an XO. But as far as the main game goes, at the start it would likely be Ashley/Kaidan. After their injury, the only other Alliance ranking officers would be Joker and Vega, so either one of them could be the XO. And again Ashley/Kaidan if they later rejoin the crew.
For my money, the best Sci Fi XO-Captain relationship I've seen put to screen is the relationship between Camina Drummer and Klaus Ashford aboard Behemoth in The Expanse TV Show. Both actors absolutely steal the show with their dynamic, but in my opinion he exemplefies how to be an XO, he always puts his opinions aside and builds up Drummer. He starts the chant during her speech, riling up the crowd. He dresses down his own men for disrespecting her, he brings his every disagreement in private or not at all. He stays on top of the work being done aboard ship and counterbalances Drummer with a deft hand, despite clear animosity personally between them.
Love how both of those characters are just dramatically better in the TV show than the books, to the point of practically stealing the show!
- hoojiwana from Spacedock
@@hoojiwana Indeed! Its my opinion that the show benefited a great deal from essentially being a second draft of the story. There's some elements that don't have as much room to breathe as in the books, but on balance I think the show is a net improvement. Especially those two.
@@hoojiwanaI agree! The expanse has to be the one show I’ve watched where every change to the story actually works in the writers favour and just makes us even more captivated with the show
As time goes on, the animosity they started with, dissipated, replaced by mutual respect and possibly even friendship as they got to know one another and trust one another. In some things, he also acted as a mentor figure for Drummer.
"he brings his every disagreement in private or not at all"
While I do agree that nearly all disagreement should be brought up alone with the captain, I don't think it's good to not bring them up at all. Being a counter-balance to the captain is the point of an XO, so one must talk about it, otherwise they aren't doing their job all that well. But then again, maybe it's done for the show.
Captain Vasili Borodin from The Hunt for Red October is also a good example of a good XO. During the scene when Captain Ramius tells his crew about the letter he sent revealing his intentions, Vasili backs Ramius in front of the crew. Then after the officers are dismissed he stays behind and tells Ramius he thinks he made a bad decision.
Supported his Captain in front of the other officers, spoke of his misgivings in private, followed his Captain's orders regardless, and in the end gave his life to save him. One of the best examples of a XO in films.
"Vasili you have the conn!"
James Holden does something similar in the first episode of The Expanse when the captain of the Canterbury orders the crew to scrub the Scopuli's distress call from the log (then immediately turns around and does the exact opposite behind everyone's back, because he's James Fucking Holden and can't leave well enough the hell alone).
He just wants to see Montana.
@@jaffarebellion292 he saw a button and pushed it
The way Spock and McCoy acted as opposite sides to balance Kirk is why Trek became such a classic.
I already love this. Susan Ivanova is one of the best and badass characters in Sci-fi. I love her character and her actor. She did a great job portraying her.
Good ol’ Claudia Christian
Her "ambassador" episodes were the freaking best.
The Drazi one, and the weird old guy sex one. 😂
Just starting with Ivanova is an automatic thumbs up
@@GoingRampant92 BOOM SHAKA LACKA BOOM SHAKA LACKA!!
Her “Ivanova is God” lecture is my favorite scene in B5 lol
this pretty much sums up how we train first officers in the airlines. well done. we usually see them as "captains-in-training"
however, there are actually alot of first officers who do not want to upgrade to captain irl. these career first officers stay where they are for various reasons, some lack command potential while others simply don't want the responsibility. it's a job afterall, like some people don't want to be managers or shouldn't be managers.
That's also something that gets done in fiction with things.
While he's technically the captain, Pelleon in the Heir to the Empire series is, functionally, the XO under Thrawn who is teaching him over the course of it
I suppose it’s also why they like taking on pilots with previous Flight Instructional Experience?
Not just for the hour minimums, but because as you say, any pilot they take onboard is expected to eventually become a Captain (Well most of them anyway) and part of their job as Captain is going to be teaching, coaching and developing the next First Officers that come after them to become Captains themselves.
Every flight deck needs two pilots, and they can't both sit in the left hand seat.
One of the greatest crimes against humanity is Ivanova consistently being left out of lists of strong female characters done correctly.
Ivonova was a human being (her illegal use of comms to talk to her dying father), yet could be an absolute terror. Woe to the person who crossed her.
@@immikeurnot Oh lets not forget Gerabaldy, or his reaction when he finally caught her.
And woe to any who trifle with her coffee plant.
@@Krahazik Gerabaldy and Jeff are the only teo brave enough to pull a prank on her.
Prank is when Ivanova was really tired, the two wait for her to fall asleep at the breakfast table, then they sway their dish with dirty one and woke her up, making her believe she overslept and was late for work. Jeff quickly and smartly flee the scene.😂
THANK YOU. Such a great flawed strong lovable character. The women in B5 were written really well, just amazing character depth generally
I personally find Riker's fumble with Barclay to be very humanizing. He comes across as a very affable, popular person, but those kinds of people can sometimes try to hard to please their friends and colleagues. That whole episode can be looked at as the anatomy of a high school bully who finally gets to sit down with the Dean - Picard.
Its very real. There are some people that just rub you the wrong way, and that's going to color your treatment of them, even if you try to remain professional.
Barclay represents the future of most of humanity to much time talking with AI, which typically serves as the ultimate Yes man and completely awkward talking with real humans
Riker can be a real jerk but he's not there to make friends and is usually pretty good at his role. Ivonova is like the Kira Nerys of B5, a hard woman but also with high intelligence, adaptability and the personality to inspire loyalty while also backing up the captain
When I was a kid, I felt sorry for Barclay. After enlisting in the Navy, I'm on Riker's side. Barclay couldn't even show up to work on time, and it's not like he had a long commute. Riker, Laforge and Troi all tried to help Barclay for weeks before that episode even began. But Barclay was showing no improvement. When someone starts acting like that it means he's either going through hard times, like getting a divorce. Or he's just a shit bag that wants to get kicked out.
to be fair, Wesley Crusher started the nickname, but Riker should have stamped it out rather than spreading it round, even to Picard.
My USN Dad is brought to mind by this. He turns 84 this year so his times as XO were a few decades back. I remember it being told that at least on CO, ship captain, told Dad that if the Captain wasn't bored then the XO wasn't doing his job. There was a time on one deployment where Dad the XO was temporarily assigned to be captain of a ship where the Captain had a medical emergency and had to be airlifted for surgery, thereby leaving intact that ship's existing relationship between XO and crew. Riker's First officer advancement - I remember Dad saying outright that he had no problems with being passed over for promotion from Commander to Captain since he quote, "signed up to drive ships, not to play politics".
➡Also, it helps a bunch for the XO to develop a good working relationship with the senior Chiefs.
"Chiefs get shit done"- pretty much every chief. (Or substitute senior nco of choice)
@@blackc1479 My brother retired from US Army as W4, he lived that experience. Said he very much enjoyed being a Warrant Officer; wasn't enlisted and didn't get yanked around here there and everywhere; wasn't a commissioned officer and didn't have to play politics; people told him what they wanted him to accomplish by when, and then most importantly, left him alone to go do it! My own health was a bit too messy for me to join the service, so I've only been an observer of those who lived it.
@@scottfw7169 I think they meant Chief Petty Officers. The Army equivalent would be Sergeant First Class, E-7, generally the platoon sergeant in responsibilities. For those unaware, Warrant Officers are like non-command officer-adjacent. They're typically in very technical roles. I was privileged to do a job where even enlisted personnel had a lot of voice, and we had a lot of WOs around. Definitely some funny stories with the unique rank structure, like that freedom being good for "Oh, the ruck march was at 5am? I thought it was 6am like usual, oops!"
" if the Captain wasn't bored then the XO wasn't doing his job." - I heard this saying a few times from my navy friends ( go army beat navy)
@@blackc1479 Unfortunately they also have a tendency to limit information going up and down the chain of command to things they personally believe to be necessary. This usually ends up with Junior officers and First classes alike not getting the information they need to do their jobs.
Fraternity mindsets always lead to failure in this regard at best, and the coverup of crimes at worst. Police Unions, Frat Houses, the Chief's Mess, its all the same issues.
The thing about military sci-fi is that it at least tries to adhere to something like a command structure.
You really hit the nail on the head about ST though. Riker may have stepped up to ‘Best of Both Worlds’ but don’t forget He needed prodding by Guinan (a civilian bartender, who could just walk into the bridge?).
Ivanova joining the Starfuries when they were about to secede from the Earth Alliance really made my jaw drop. THAT right there, proved me to me how mature B5 was compared to other contemporary shows.
As for execs (or 2nd captains) who step up and disagree or countermand the Captain? Look up Vasili Arkhipov, who served on a Soviet attack submarine during the Cuban Missile Crisis. While being submerged and having depth charges sent around them to force them to force them to surface, the Captain and one other officer wanted to launch a nuclear tipped torpedo (thinking that WW3 had already started). It had to be all three officers to agree, but Arkhipov said ‘No’. Because of that, they finally did surface and found that war hadn’t been declared. One officer stopped nuclear war in ‘62.
The thing about Guinan is that she is essentially a chaplain. She didn't end up on Enterprise by accident and it certainly isn't because she's a good barkeep, although she is. Her job is a pretense for Picard to have his ancient alien mystic confidant on staff.
From a narrative perspective it probably should have been Troi, both the ship's counseller and Riker's past and future paramour who advised him in that episode. But Guinan's bond with Picard won out in the writing room, I suppose.
@@Azraiel213 Its also that Troy was a massive writting problem to begin with and then the actress didn't help writting anything for her either.
She went from Vulcan empath stand in to crew feelings officer real fast.
Guinan was a very special character, though. She wasn't a regular cast member, so they didn't have to bring her up in every episode, and only used her when they needed/wanted her. She also has a deep relationship with Picard, to the extent that she can basically tell Picard what he needs to do, regardless of consequences -- whether it's ignoring regulations and joining an away-mission, or outright sacrificing two major starships.
She will also not try to do this for petty reasons. If she wants to talk to Picard, he's willing to listen -- which is also why she can come on the bridge when she feels it's necessary. She would never go to the bridge just for a change of scenery.
@@Azraiel213 I’m only going from what u saw in the show, and in that show she seemed to be something like Wesley Crusher 2.0 (someone who knows the answer to solve issues of the week)
@@padawanmage71 She appeared relatively rarely throughout the series, and when she did appear and give advice (to Picard for example), it was just that. She never resolved the plot or gave an answer. She only ever gave her opinion as she usually insisted that Picard should make his own choices. That's totally different from what Wesly was early on, as he would literally solve the plot by himself. The most active we ever see her is Yesterday's Enterprise, because it that episode she's the only one aware that time has changed, and subsequently the episode is partially told from her point of view.
It's funny, that an episode of Spacedock not focused on ships, tech, or Sci-fi tropes - turns out to be one of their best episodes. I totally enjoyed this one.
Im glad you touch on the "problem of the week" writing style that was the norm back then. Sometimes a guest writer would blow it and unintentionally "retcon" previously established characterisation. This happens with Riker and Janeway especially
The Equinox episodes of Star Trek Voyager were a great exploration of the impact a first officer can have. The first officer of the Equinox was the real villain of the story and his influence is what turned that crew to the dark side. This was contrasted by Chakotay the first officer of Voyager who gets relieved of duty by Janeway because he objected to her pushing the boundaries of morality. It's a major sub-plot (or sub theme?) of those episodes.
Guess having captain named Ransom might have been a giveaway as well. It like imagine if a ship was powered by galactic space whales, kind of like the good old days
There’s a theory floating around that Max was actually a Section 31 operative.
But it’s just a theory, a Star Trek theory.
Having served in the navy, I would say that a good XO must be at some level hated by the crew.
He is usually a disciplinarian and highly demanding of his crew.
There is method to the madness as it allows the CO to act as a father figure and quieten things down. The CO must from time to time rein in the XO without undermining him or her. That is an art form in itself.
Nothing is worse for moral long term than an XO who wants to be your friend. That is not his or her job. His or her job is to drive you hard so that everybody get home safely.
For me, the best description of an XO in Scifi is Saul Tigh in Battlestar. I will take Tuvok over Chatokay anytime of the day.
Its almost a Mom/Dad dynamic; the captain is mom- they make the decisions, but ultimately, you want to make them proud. XO is dad- they are in charge (when mom let's them be in charge), but if you fuck up, they're the one coming down on you- but hopefully in a way to make you better. (And if you're "older brothers/sisters", i.e., the people in the COC between the XO and you, didn't keep you right, welp, they're getting taken behind the woodshed too.)
Can you really have both the CO and XO as unfeeling hardasses? As a historian, most cases where both were disliked seem to end poorly for the crew. I don't think you could have a janeway and a tuvok in the situation like we see in voyager, you basically need a chakotay.
@@thelordofcringe having also briefly served in the navy, my answer is that the CO and XO need to balance each other.
can't have two hardasses, can't have two softies; the ship needs a disciplined leader and a motivated and encouraged crew.
on my ship the balance was a little too one-sided, our captain was an unprofessional ass, but our XO was amazing! friendly, charismatic and disciplined, very much the caring father of the every sailor aboard, the crew would have followed him anywhere.
@@Sephiroth144 That is exactly how it works. Everybody onboard knows the role everybody takes but it works surprisingly well.
@@julientabulazero103 And in the Army, generally the same- though 1SG's (i.e, the ranking NCO) often could be slotted into the XO position (insofar as role; at least in the units I was in, the LT(s) were not as involved in the direct activities- though that might be an artillery thing)
Ivanova is such a fun character and is absolutely hilarious all while being a good officer
Her character is a great example of how good writing (and great casting helps too) can add some levity to a serious story without getting "jokey" and being inconsistent with the tone.
"And now, I am the expanding Russian Frontier!" - Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5, (the second season episode in which Dr Steven decided to use Garibaldi's recovery from being shot in the previous season's finalie to force all the senior staff on diets...)
@@shlomokallner3180 "But with very nice borders!"
Ivanova! First childhood crush and one of the best strong female characters ever!
You forgot one of, if not the MAIN responsability of the XO aboard a ship.
They have the duty to reiterate to the Captain the procedures, in case he has a situation ahead and a decision has to be made. And, if they do not have time, give the orders directly, apologies to the captain later.
If there is a procedure to be followed, the captain becomes second in comand, Ofc. Protocol takes the bridge.
One example of this is Saavik, from "The Wrath of Khan", when she remembers Kirk about raising the shields, according to the procedure, in the first battle.
BTW, she is an example of what happens when the XO is out of his/hers dept.
She should have overidden Kirk, and directly ordered to raise shields. She lacked decisiveness, and the crew paid the price.
But, in her defense, that scene also demonstrates the dangers of familiarity overtaking rank.
The OG bridge crew snarked when she mentioned the protocol, so she ended up doubting her actions, despite beying absolutelly correct.
They saw her as an outsider, and a rookie, and the captain did nothing to remedy the situation. He even made it worse, TBH.
Even if Kirk disagreed with her, he was wrong, and he should have thanked her for her reminder, and followed suit.
Both because the crew would start to grow respect for Saavik, and because IT WAS THE F@K!Ng PROCEDURE!
It's been a while since I've seen Wrath of Khan, but was Saavik actually in the position of XO? Assuming that I'm forgetting and she actually was, that would have likely been for the training cruise under Spock, and I imagine that would have gone out the airlock when the Enterprise was assigned to investigate Regula. At that point, Kirk took command and likely Spock returned to the XO role. Saavik would have maintained her station on the bridge, but a different chain of command would have likely been established given the training wheels were unexpectedly yanked off.
This just clears Saavik of the duty to follow procedure during the first encounter with Reliant, as that would have fallen to Spock. Actually, this doubly proves your second point of the dangers of familiarity - Kirk failed to follow procedure and SPOCK, of all people, failed to correct the situation and make sure that procedure was adhered to.
Was the latter. Saavik was only in the duty of helmsman. Kirk did acknowledge his fault, urging Saavik to keep on "quoting regulations". As much as it pains me to say it, Spock really failed on his XO responsibilities in that scene, for creative licences: Kirk would never have ignored Spock at this moment of their careers, especially if no harm would be done following procedure after all.
It's always puzzled me that nobody else said anything. Some of those folks had known Kirk most of their lives AND were only alive because of the occasional raised shield. You'd think it would be reflex by now to hit the shield button, or remind someone to.
That always bugged the hell out of me. It was the hinkiest possible scenario, and they just waltzed right in.
@stevenscott2136 that scene always bugged the hell out of me. Especially after Chekov was rescued just before the intercept.
Kirk could have gotten away with following protocol then apologizing for it as a "preventitive measure against Klingon attacks" since the latter was maurading through.
Susan Ivanova is the best First Officer. EVER.
While I love B5, anddefend that it's the best SF show ever, I do think Tigh would give her a run for her money.
@@sergioaccioly5219 No way...! 😉
@@WilhelmImperatorRex I didn't say he'd necessarily win, mind you.
It's just that Michael Hogan did just such a fantastic, nuanced, job ass Saul Tigh that need to be acknowledged.
Let's just say that they're both top of the line officers and heroes, and go for there.
I remember when all of the hype about Star Trek: Discovery was that it was going to focus on a ship's First Officer rather than the Captain. Yeah, we saw how that went.
the very first episode the CO and the XO went on a mission and the CO died. Well done. :D
To quote The Dude, well that's just like your opinion man.
@@Mecha82@Mecha82, based on observed phenomena, Disco(ball) focused on Michael Burnham as she bounced around from executive officer to felon to observer and finally captain. That's not an opinion.
Shoutout to Samantha Carter, the second-in-command of SG1, who, alongside Ivanova, stands as one of the best-written female characters with authority in sci-fi and, frankly, on screen anywhere.
She wasn't second-in-command though.. she was the lowest military rank of a group of 4 -_-; She was more the tech wiz gal then anything.
@@jawstrock2215 The only members of SG-1 with military ranks were Jack and Sam, so I think that's splitting hairs.
@@Roxor128 well, so is saying she is second in command :D
Vid beginning with B5 and Ivanova? Instant like!
I once wrote an Aliens fanfic set aboard a mining starfreighter. The Captain was not a good Captain, prickly and snapping at his own crew. In fairness he was thrust into a situation far beyond his training or experience. His first officer was a former Colonial Marine, woman who acted like a stereotypical DI hardass. But deep down, she was scared. Scared that her crew of untrained civvies were going to get themselves killed. She was prepared to go on the front lines of danger, rather than risk one of her crew. Even if that crew was an expendable science android almost everyone disliked, but the Captain overruled her.
She wasn't afraid to call out the Captain's questionable decisions, but only in private. She wasn't the least bit affected by his snapping at her. However he noted she was easily qualified to be a Captain herself, and asked why? This actually touched a nerve, and she gave an evasive answer. I hinted that she'd actually be a better Captain than him, but after a traumatic experience she doesn't want that responsibility.
Yeah, that would have worked in a mainstream show.
Ticks a lot of diversity boxes.
Incompetent male character in command position who can't act under pressure or straight up evil.
Hyper competent combat experience zero character flaws Mary Sue female who is the ' better Captain '. 🙄
Yeah, right. Haven't seen that trope before at all 🙄🙄.
Guess that's why all these types have been leading combat squads to victory throughout history, eh? 🙄
Bet you loved the Emma and her two Mums propaganda video from a few years back.
@@Iron-Bridge Oh ho ho this is rich! Where to start?
I started writing this story way back in the 90s. Influences for my first officer included Vasquez, Ivanova, Ripley, Shane Vansen of Space Above and Beyond. Back then people like you were whining "Everything's too PC these days"! It was BS then, it's BS now.
Second, she dies halfway through the story. Not in glorious battle either, she was snatched by Xenos while helpless in hypersleep, for breeding stock. The main character is the aformentioned android science officer, loosely influenced by Lance Henrickson/Ian Holm. He is the one who becomes the hyper-competent hero, thanks to hidden Company upgrades and directives gone wrong. So much for your diversity boxes eh?
I neither know, nor care to know what Emma and her two Moms was all about. So you'd lose that bet.
I am very confident my story does not fit the distorted caricature you've spewed. But if the mere synopsis is enough to trigger your pearl-clutching gobbledygook, then I'm clearly doing something right. Thanks for the laugh! 🤣
@@Iron-Bridge Way to take nuanced interesting characters and bastardize them into culture war caricatures, scooter. I bet you're the type who goes after every sci-fi/action heroine bleating "women can't fight! woke woke woke!"
So how many good XO's have you written up? Where's your list of bestsellers, Shakespeare? Don't get into a battle of words with a writer, pleb.
My personal favorite executive officer is not from science fiction. It's the XO of the USS Dallas from "The Hunt for Red October"...minimalist, all business, and maybe psychic with respect to the captain.
The film adaptation is arguably science fiction given that what makes Red October special is changed to technobabble
When I first watched Gundam SEED, I wasn't a fan of Natarle Badgiruel, she seemed be against the rest of the cast. I've since grown to understand her more and really love the dynamic. She was a low-ranking officer of the original Archangel crew, but the only one with enough knowledge of the ship when the command crew were killed. Murrue Ramius was a higher rank but from a different section, while Mu LaFlaga was the only pilot remaining and couldn't stay on the Bridge. Natarle's commitment to discipline and duty lead her to allow Murrue to be acting Captain while supporting her as her XO despite the fact that she was more knowledgeable about the ship. Natarle and Murrue's contrasting personalities led to numerous conflicts, but they were both doing what they thought was right. Despite appearances, I truly believe that by the end of the series, they would have considered each other as good friends, and if she hadn't been transferred, Natarle and Murrue's command styles would have meshed together to compliment each other.
The opposing Zaft ship officers were weirdly subservient sometimes to the senior pilots. They seemed to use a Hero Unit, led by warriors style.
Very true, however Natarle wouldn't have approved much of the maverick nature of the role the Archangel would come to play after JOSH-A. That said, I would have liked to have heard her opinions on what the crew was doing in Destiny.
It was kind of awesome when during FREEDOM Murrue used a similar move to that of Natarle at the Battle of Mendel, launching missiles in proximity mode, i.e making a sort of minefield.
@@loupnuit1 A lot of that was in how things were handled in universe.
Essentially, a lot of the capships with mobile suits on them are there entirely to deliver them to the fight. Basically the CAG is the one running the operation there with the ship just being another thing under his command.
Kind of like the chopper pilots for special forces group is under the command of the head of the team rather than being the on in charge themselves.
Actually having been one of the people who worked on the archangel Murrue probably knew just as much if not more about the ship than Natarle. They did humanize Natarle in a few episodes, like when they arrived at a village that Andrew Waltfeld had burned to the ground she assisted in giving aid and calming the children.