Will Solar-Powered Cars Ever Happen??
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.พ. 2023
- We absolutely love the idea of solar-powered electric cars here at Fully Charged Show, and over the past 12 months we've covered three of the most exciting and advanced examples from Sono Motors, Lightyear and Aptera. However, it seems that all three companies are, to varying degrees struggling to fund production for their groundbreaking products. Jack takes a look into the state of affairs at each company and explores why it's so damn hard to get a new car brand off the ground in 2023.
Our latest episode on...
Lightyear: • The Lightyear 0 Is The...
Sono Motors: • The Super-Cheap Solar-...
Aptera: • The Game-Changing CHEA...
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#Lightyear #sonosion #aptera #solarcar #solarpower #electriccar #evs #cleanenergy #electriccars #tesla #rivian - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
A very sad update from Sono motors just hours after this episode went live: The Sion has been discontinued.
sonomotors.com/en/press/press-releases/sono-motors-commits-to-focus-exclusively-on-solar-tech-company-and-has-terminated-the-sion-program/
Finally!
Does Fully Charged take any responsibility for potentially showcasing brands and indirectly encouraging preorders for EV "products" that are still prototypes? I think you should do more due diligence, or make it more clear the vehicles you show are far from ready
@@nomoreheroes93 Listen, they're not selling shares or anything. They are an EVs news channel. They show off interesting tech. They clear misconceptions about EVs. They promote EVs in general, not companies in particular. Are you salty? Did you invest in a bad company or know anyone who did so?
A real shame. Could have sold insanely well. Hope they have patents on their tech and can licence it to car manufacturers who might want to develop a similar vehicle.
Shares down 23% so far today
If anyone on the LightYear team is in the comments. I am an electrical engineer/data analyst already working in the EV space based in NL.
I don't have money to help you guys out but I would love to help you guys out by spending my time on this project 🙂.
All the best to all 3 organisations. Hoping to see these cars on the road very soon
I'd reach out to them directly, through the contact form on their website! 👍🏼
There's no way engineers don't know what to do. The PUBLIC needs to know what can be done, in order to have right expectations of technology. Solar panels use light. Friction breaking heat can power light source in the car. They don't have engineering problems likely...
Yes not before time inmamorial, good luck lads,, I wish I was rich, and not going out of life, all the best for your future commitment ❤
I really want the Sono especially to succeed. I love the aptera and to a lesser degree the light-year but I want a car that's got a people/cargo carrying volume inside it, even if it's not super aerodynamic.
Check Electric Brands X Bus
The SONO needs your help. Go to their website to find out more. I’m also a big supporter of it!
Yeah, we also want that affordable, normal family car. Really hope they make it! The other two are defo cool things if you can afford them and maybe have access to another vehicle. Just that no frills minivan is all we'd need for our family.
Problem is, solar only makes sense on hyper-efficient cars, the surface area is simply limited, and raising area causes mass to rise more than the area (square-cubed law), causing less miles from solar per day.
I just wish they'd let Brit cits put down a deposit on one...
Thanks for shining a light on these three Solar-Assisted EV automakers. I've reserved a Launch Edition Aptera, and invested both before, and again with this Accelerate Aptera program. The additional good news for Aptera is that the $21.9 million California grant has been approved, and it is a funds matching grant. So new investment in Aptera is effectively doubled as the money is invested by Aptera into tooling, parts and production materials.🏎🌞
The most realistic solar vehicle is an efficient EV recharged by a domestic rooftop array. I’m going solar powered in a couple of months, without waiting for aptera, lightyear etc.
At last, someone talking sense! The side panels on the Sion will be in shade for much or the time. And the roof will suffer obstruction too. Be better to take the panels off and make it simpler and cheaper.
Of course, this is not an either/or choice.
@@n.brucenelson5920 of course, you can have both. Just adds cost and complexity. Much depends on where you live, park, how far you drive, etc. I live in the north of England, park in a covered parking garage and have a battery in my roof space charged by my rooftop solar panels. For me, the cost/benefit of also having panels on the car is not a paying proposition. The case studies from Aptera are for people living in California who park in sun drenched parking lots. Different payout.
For me the attraction of Aptera is its efficiency, not the onboard solar. Your Mileage May Differ.
@@MandyFlame Yes, exactly. I live in Iowa, an in-between case. I will be very interested to see what the Aptera design will look like once it is homologated for the UK. Some of the design choices will change, for sure.
@@n.brucenelson5920 yes, I preordered one when I was living in Seattle, and cancelled it when I moved to the UK. The roads in my 1000 year old city are not designed for an 8’ wide car, nor are the cobblestone and potholed streets very friendly to a three wheeler. I’m still wanting to own one, but hoping for a European version Aptera Mk II
As has been said many, many times, by several people: "Making prototypes is easy. Production is hard." Almost anybody could make a *one-off* prototype vehicle in their garage, but production at scale, making tens of thousands of vehicles, is very very hard and very very expensive to set-up.
As an Aptera investor, I CANNOT wait for them to start shipping
👍
Maybe they should at least start testing of their early prototypes.
Quiet risky... I cannot believe that they are really making a product... but maybe I am wrong.
Me too
As an investor, you will HAVE to wait, like everyone else, Sam
I’ve pre ordered two Launch Edition Apteras and have also become an Aptera investor recently as I believe in what they are doing and love their product. With many recent progression announcements, I’m even more confident in Aptera moving towards production and can’t wait to take possession of their world-changing vehicles soon. I would love to see lots more SEV’s come to market or existing auto manufacturers produce SEV’s as for many markets with plenty of sunshine, just make sense.
I just want to add my thanks to you and others in the community that are stepping forward to support something that needs to happen for the god of all of us.
@@n.brucenelson5920 I'm happy you did it so I don't have to.
Sorry, only people lacking a solid education in physics would think that something like the Aptera or Sion are a good idea. To make good use of the PV cells your car must be parked in the most sunlit spot you can find - in summer, the desert or similar. So it will be scorching hot inside because the solar cells heat up the chassis besides producing electricity and then you wouldn't want to drive in it because of that.
Don't hold your breath. Aptera V1 stole my 500 dollar deposit over a decade ago. Never got it back.
@@karlgunterwunsch1950 It is my understanding that the real reason behind the range on the various Aptera models was the insanely low drag coefficient (physics) and reduced rolling resistance (three wheels vs four). The solar part always seemed novel to me. And obviously the vehicle is not intended to run solely on solar power or it would not have a charge port, which it does. I see the solar additive more akin to a LV1 top off. I don't believe the base trim comes with solar cells, still has a range of some 250 miles and costs only ~$24K USD before incentives. I will take it on faith that Aptera's engineers are smart enough to have worked out heat management on the car.
full disclosure: Tesla owner, Aptera waitlister
I think you've nailed it at 8:00 They are struggling because they are automotive startups, a very hard thing to do
Takeaways for the solarEV startups: Be Mad. Be Rich. Be Lucky.
We're all waiting for you to succeed.
An you need to be all three.
I'm all 3 of the above.
An alternative for Sion could be to licence their solar cell technology to another established electric car producer, like they have done for busses. My hope for Sono is that they will survive on their licenced technology, and in case Sion is put on hold, give it rebirth when finances are better
Sono is selling their solar tech for busses and such. The car may not happen thiugh.
i think the bus solar system they are selling as a product, not licensing out.
but i guess licensing out the tech should work for them pretty well to allow them to come to market.
out of the three it was and still is the one i am most excited for
@@pasmas3217 Sorry, my fault. Yes, I agree.
You can buy solar for your recreation vehicle (incl converter) since 20 years now. No license necessary.
@@pasmas3217 They gathered 130k with their solar business. And it cost them 160k. What a great business case.
I really want the SION. But not because of the solar cells. I believe that solar panels on the house is both less expensive and also more effektive. Putting solar panels on a "normal" European house might give energy corresponding to 100 000 km every year. SION is so much more. It is a really practical car.
I pray they all make it, because this is a brilliant idea
I highly doubt the gods will suspend the laws of capitalism and business just for you. Instead of sending thoughts and prayers, send them a big check.
You should rather pay than pray 🙂
All three go bancrupt. Because its an idea that only appeals to people who had singing and clapping in their physics class.
All the best to all 3 organisations. Hope you succeed in your journey
You may concentrate your hope on Aptera. That will be gone next.
My M3 is already solar powered! By the PV’s on my roof! Just pointing out that putting them ON the car doesn’t solve a real problem - maybe only in those desert like places, few of these above the Alps! Plugging in your EV overnight once in a while is easy enough.
Don't forget the batteries that you use to hold the charge until the car comes back at the end of the day.
Aptera is amazing
I almost signed up for a Sion very recently. I live in a place where we regularly see over 40°C in summer. I don’t want a black car parked in the sun unless Sono can tell me how cabin heat can be effectively managed. No news on that front. Seems their km-of-range claim for grey German skies is fantastic but it’s a car that is inherently designed for the place it was designed. Funny how Lightyear comes from the NL, too. Here in the south of Europe we have white cars and park them in the shade if we have any sense…
I was in southern france quite often in spring time - and cursed that I had gone for a black BMW. Now with my EV I had some sense, it's white (well underneath the inevitable layer of dirt it's supposed to be white)...
I think where Sono went wrong was growing broccoli on the dashboard. I could be wrong, but that was my first impression. 🤣😂
FINALLY got the idea to SLOW playback so I don't miss a thing!
My favorite things: Fully Charged video, SEV's, and Jack Scarlett.
As a fellow Aptera Ambassador, investor, and reservation holder has me saying: CHARGE ON!
Love seeing you here, Rob! Charge on, indeed!
Most cars are parked most of the time. Solar power where cars are parked may assist with charging.
Exactly. It's much more sensible to leave the solar panels at the car park than carry them around with you. Require all car parks to have solar panels powering EV chargers snd that will nake a big dent in the problem.
What they need is a car powered by rain, for places like Manchester.
Jack, I always love hearing your take on things, and your environmental urgency focus is directly to the point!
the aptera is pretty much my dream car. shitty thing is, i have absolutely no use for a car....
i still invested in aptera, but im no millionaire, i cant push them into production.
Every small investment and additional product awareness is of immense help in getting them there. Thank you!
Aptera is a motorcycle, not a car. A deathtrap in case of an accident. And you will never be a millionaire, when you buy things you dont need. Or invest in marketing scams. Just for the good feeling. And thank yous from irrelevant people.
@@vic321344 Why do you insist that a vehicle that has airbags and crumple zones, and will be tested to the same FMVSS Part 200 standards as any car by an independent 3rd party, with the results too be published is a "Death Trap"? Your comments are pure FUD. And you will never have a good feeling about yourself as long as you are so engaged.
@@n.brucenelson5920 Easy. I the case of a accident the front wheels will rip off at once. Then the body will turn upside down and you cannot escape (yes, YOU can escape thropugh the side windows, I know). The batteries are built within the body. So the toxic fumes from burning batterie packs escape directly to the driver. And so on...
Aptera will for sure happen.
Heard the same about Sono. Year after year.
@@vic321344 you are aware that they are different companies, with different cars, operated by a different team, in a different country, right?
I like the Sono, as it is more practical in design and functionality for every day use for a family up to 4 or possibility five and commercial use like in on-demand car sharing, etc.
Well done Jack, you explained what I was thinking when you asked "Why is it so hard to turn a bold new idea into reality in the automotive industry?" Heck! Its hard to turn a mediocre idea into a reality. The Bricklin SV-1 and De Lorean DMC-12 were nothing remarkable, flashy two seater bodywork on chassis using existing proven components from legacy manufacturers. They both died and had little impact on the automotive world. I am absolutely shocked that Tesla managed to build a car manufacturing company from the ground up that has revolutionized how people see electric cars, AND is becoming America's 4th major manufacturer. I'm living in a small city in the American midwest and I see Tesla Model Ys and Model 3s driving around there. This level of success is astounding. I'd love to see some Lightyear, Sonosion and Aptera succeed. But I understand how tough it is...If they fail, their failure will far more impressive than so many successes I have seen.
Because not any new idea is a good idea. And sometimes the "new" ideas are old ideas, just already discarded by people who did not have singing and clapping in their physics class.
one of my favourite of your videos. do this more. take an important theme - like 'why is it so damned hard to build a charging network in the UK' and 'why do we pay so much for our electricity' and give it a good FCS shakedown.
agree - the world of business can be complex and difficult, and it was nice for FCS to show the struggles - the dark as well as the light... Jack, to be fair always comes across as quite balanced in his reviews, happy to point out things in cars that he thinks are rubbish, rather than pure EV evangelism (which also has its place).
The Sono seems like a car which would do EXTREMELY well anywhere that people don't drive huge distances and there is a lot of sunshine. In many cases it could mean that people literally never have to charge their cars, or do so so infrequently that they can top up every now and again from a standard wall socket. Anywhere in Spain for example, or even the Canary islands where it would essentially be a perpetually charged car.
Living in the south of spain and I have my sono sion reservation. Hope it gets produced.
@@JorgeCastro_inf Dont need to hope anymore.
You can literally take any PHEV vehicle in production and slap a solar roof roof on it (like a van or a SUV ) to create a fully solar powered PHEV-s vehicle . why no major car company one does this...
@@chinabluewho Because it is ínefficient and exensive. The yield is anemic. It has no real use. Hyundai tried it on the Ioniq5 and now they cancelled it. Lightyear and Sono tried solar on BEV, and they failed. Aptera is next.
The solar yield was not nearly enough to drive the car. It is anemic in real world scenarios.
Love them all…nearly put deposit on Sion and Aptera, but no plans for RHD. Prefer Sion ethos and love Aptera concept.
Aptera has already done the RHD design, but for GB, there may be other more important differences in the homologation.
@@n.brucenelson5920 it was when they first opened up to deposits and no RHD plans. Good to know though/
One of the most instructive, cynical (should I say: realistic?), simple, to-the-point video I've ever seen on this topic. THANKS for it!
Thank you for the updates. Those are the 3 most interesting cars for me and I would be very pleased to have a Lightyear 2 in few years ! :D
Interesting analysis - thanks 👏
Nice encapsulation of the situation.
I have my fingers and toes crossed for these brands. I really hope they succeed.
Cross one off. Sono Scion officially ended today.
@@EleTruk That is such a shame.
@@AlanStainer Aptera will be next.
One of the best shows. Thank you for bringing us these stories.
It seems closer to the ball to just produce a folding panel system (that fits in the trunk let's say) that can be used to charge the popular brands that are already out there while parked.
Yeah, this has been my thoughts recently, some self-standing panels we can set up beside the parked car and on top, that feeds directly into the batt.
@@dama9150 Ideally everyone should have PV on their roof and a folding panel if they do things like camping. But an EV is a major power storage device so why not have built-in PV so that your charging even if you're just popping down to the shops. The Sono is an urban vehicle - most the time it will be parked somewhere where you can't exactly unfold several square metres of panels. If you park at work and your employer is not enlightened enough to provide charging that rooftop panel could mean never having to plug in ever. A true self-charging car. Take that Toyota!
Cool idea. Some people will love to pick up expensive solar panels standing around on the boardwalk.
@@vic321344 Yeah, that's a fair thought. Some measures could be taken. But hopefully, panels will be so cheap that it won't be a huge factor.
@@vic321344 yes, let's not do the worthwhile thing, always focus on the bad thing that could happen...
Sadly the SION is no more..from Sono website.
We are extremely saddened that we have terminated the Sion program so close to bringing it to the streets. We are still fully committed to making a real difference in mobility and making every vehicle solar. Therefore we have made the decision to continue with our solar B2B business. This was a very difficult decision, as you can imagine, and we do not take it lightly.
Such a shame it's a fantastic idea and it was obviously nearly there. If I could of got one in rhd I would have seriously looked at it. Hopefully someone will pick it up and make it reality.
I saw the Sono Sion two days ago at Sono's roadshow. It's a comfortable car, the solar cells look okay already, the software and price seem good enough.
Sure, the 1.2kWp around the car would generate more electricity when installed on a roof, but I don't think Sono is going to take a lot away from the solar industry. I wish them well, but I'm not sure if they're going to make it. If not, I hope they can repay the money reservation holders have put into the company.
The 1.2kWp are next to nothing in the real world. Think about it. If you go into town, are there any open spaces to park the car in or do you have to go into a multi story car park. If you are so lucky as to find an open space, how many buildings surround that and how much do they block the sun from reaching your vehicle. What about your off street parking? Ready to tear down your garage to make space for the car as inside the garage it can't trickle charge of the PV modules.The idea sounds good until you realise how ludicrously unrealistic the premises are under which the car can produce a bit of energy that can be put into the battery.
@@karlgunterwunsch1950 And if it's blazing sunshine, how often do you look to park in full sunlight? How long do you need to be parked to negate the amount of AC you'll need to use to cool the car again?
@@drunkenhobo8020 Exactly.The idea of putting PV cells on a car is purely bonkers because it does't fit the way we use cars - and that includes "storage" when we don't use it.
I've been tracking these 3 startup from the beginning
Sono motor: doesn't have real technology and they hire contractors to find solution, and it seems they don't know what their doing I can't find in their team single talent
lightyear: have great technology and good passion team and build a real solar EV the problem is when they reach the production hell, they didn't plan to this point and they surprised by the amount of problem and cost they are faced and they fail fast
Aptera :is the best and real technology between them with very experienced and talented team they calculate every step they are doing with very low cost, and they planned to production from day one, the only problem they are faced is timing, if they launched sooner than that they will find every funds they are want from everybody
I don’t know for Aptera and Lightyear, but for Sono, the big controversy was the amount of money they gave themselves annually as salaries and bonuses…while their product was not even in mass production… And then they ask for more millions. When you start a business, it is quite common to make little money for yourself for several years… not pay yourself massive salaries and bonuses 😡 But I genuinely want all three to succeed as they each bring to the table an interesting flavour of SEV. Love the Lightyear and the Sono though 😍
Aptera has been totally transparent and you can find this data in their SEC reports.
@@n.brucenelson5920 Sono have been transparent as well. Their financial reports are available on their website. I just don’t think that you should pay yourself (or your employees) big salaries and bonuses when you start a company and your product is not even launched. Doesn’t make financially sense.
@@Nikoo033agree. They should be paying themselves just enough to get by. Perhaps just minimum wage. That would be a great PR selling point. It would prove they really believe in the product for the long term and are not just trying to get paid as much as they can in the short term.
They burnt 350 Mill in 5 years.
Although I have no interest in ever buying one -- I am quite fond of my Chevy Bolt -- I made the first direct investment in my 72 years, buying 100 shares of Aptera for exactly the reason Jack identifies at the end of his video. I want to see them succeed for purely environmental reasons and they appear to be the most likely to actually sell a significant number of those reservations. I know that many of the people willing to "reserve" a vehicle with a $100 refundable deposit will never actually buy one even if they get to their name on the list. As always, I appreciate the thoughtful videos being made by Fully Charged, particularly Jack's.
It occurs to me that the reasons for reserving a car and then not buying it are
A) An alternative became available sooner. Not applicable, there is nothing remotely like Aptera even proposed.
B) The price went up too much. Remains to be seen.
C) Had to buy SOMETHING and time ran out. This could happen, but if an Aptera is what someone wants, I bet that they would have no problem buying something used for cheap and selling it when their Aptera is available.
I like my Bolt too. I will ditch it in a heartbeat for an Aptera.
Thank you!
I was writing down that quote and you got me...I had to go back and edit it, haha.
Sensational video.
Love your work 👍
I'm a big fan of these solar cars. I like efficient cars so I'm not paying for a bigger battery just to lug around a big box or bigger car than I need. I used to drive a Landcruiser, was not easy on the pocket or to breath near.
7:20 Aptera intends to make a narrower model for the EU.
At the cost of the vehicle being a little less efficient.
How do you want to make a narrower model? A 1 seater with no stability?
@@vic321344 I'm guessing they'll tuck the front wheels in a little closer. But we'll see.
@@rashidclark Anhd how do they want to steer the wheels? The aptera motorcycle already has a turning radius larger than a F-250.
As someone trying to bring a disruptive innovation in wimd energy, i experience these issues on a daily basis.
Thank you for your efforts on our behalf. Even conservative Iowa is at 57% of our grid power now supplied by wind.
Espero que Sono Motors lo consiga. That car may be my next one, I'd like to harness the energy from the sun without having to install solar panels
Even a balcony panel that you plug into your mains produces more usable energy and that costs 700 Euro and that you don't need to park in the blazing sun so that when you want to drive it you need to invest a few kWh in cooling it down to survivable temperatures before you enter it. Black is a good color for solar panels but in the blazing sun it sure heats up nicely - that will also not make battery life any easier (unless you waste even more energy to keep them cool)...
No it won't. Sono motors just shut down the development and is laying off the staff...
Thank you. We really want them to succeed. As research has found, the best predictor for a Startup success is how wealthy are the founders' parents...
Good one with Robert in the end 🤣
Yes, Aptera looks a bit strange, but in an industry disruptive way. High-efficiency EV design with solar-assist makes a lot of sense for many people -- as does Lightyear and Sono. This is the direction future EV design needs to go. I invested.
We need more vehicles in the 'small, cheap and efficient' EV segment, and the Aptera really hits a good spot between being sleek, hyper-efficient and small without compromising utility. Nobody else seems to be doing what they're doing. For those who don't *really* need more seats, this be the only car they need to buy. The entry price for this kind of capability anywhere else is far greater. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it turns out and I'm rooting for them.
Solar on vehicles make no sense at all. Therefore Lightyear and Sono are already gone. Aptera is next.
@@vic321344 Gaining as much as 40 free miles of range daily just by parking outside whether at home, work or out camping "makes no sense at all" yeah, sure... don't bother providing reasons or anything. :\
@@MaskedMammal These 40 miles are just marketing phantasies. Lightyear did not get it, Sono did not get it. Both dead now. Aptera is next.
@@vic321344 Lightyear is not a 3 wheeled vehicle. Sono isn't under 2000 lbs curb weight. Neither comes close in aerodynamics.
Aptera is built from the ground up focused on efficiency to the point where it sacrifices rear seating and a whole additional tire and looks like a fish. If you get more mileage off the same amount of energy, then you get more mileage off the solar panels.
It's getting 10 miles per kWh, which is not an unreasonable number if you know about EV efficiency. Nothing about this is pie in the sky Solar Freakin Roadways grifting - you just want it to be.
"Prototypes are easy, production is hard"
I wouldn’t say Aptera has run into any financial issues. AFAIK collecting funding to go to production was always the plan. That’s been my understanding for years.
Thanks
If there's one thing that seems a worse investment than a startup car company, it's a startup car company begging for last minute funds for a car you've already submitted a deposit for.
Aptera now starts to do the same. With the same results.
Very good video although i am not sure the title tells me what it was about.
Was this more about EV startups and the issues they face rather than "Will solar powered cars ever happen"?
Keep up the great work.
I've been tracking these 3 startup from the beginning
Sono motor: doesn't have real technology and they hire contractors to find solution, and it seems they don't know what their doing I can't find in their team single talent
lightyear: have great technology and good passion team and build a real solar EV the problem is when they reach the production hell, they didn't plan to this point and they surprised by the amount of problem and cost they are faced and they fail fast
Aptera :is the best and real technology between them with very experienced and talented team they calculate every step they are doing with very low cost, and they planned to production from day one, the only problem they are faced is timing, if they launched sooner than that they will find every funds they are want from everybody
Aptera and lowcost? motors from slovenia, bodies from Italy? Batteries banged together from ancient korean cells?
Fisker learned his lesson. This time he developed the car but had Magna engineer and produce it.
Thank you, Jack. This is quite comprehensive. I want a Sion
Maybe you can find a matchbox car looking like one, the real thing though is history.
@@karlgunterwunsch1950 Yep. I just got the bad news...
Having worked at a few start up and established automotive engineering companies, I have a few observations...
Firstly, a novel idea doesn't necessarily sell cars. Doing something a bit better than someone else sells cars. I don't think the majority of people like change (think iPhone, BMW 3 series etc.).
Secondly, although developing an electric vehicle is arguably easier and more accessible than an ICE car, actually building a car that's any good is still REALLY hard.
Thirdly, even if you know how to make something look nice (looking at you Arrival), knowing how to make something that's even legal to sell is another thing altogether. The amount of legislation to pass is incredible and there's a hundred ways to trip up and fail certification. It also takes a lot of time. Most start ups don't do the due diligence for this up front, go off and design something pretty and stick it on a swanky website and then everyone expects they'll see the car on the road next year. There's a minimum of 5 years to produce a new vehicle - no matter how clever (arrogant) you are. And if you plan to change how vehicles are made or designed it's probably 10.
As you point out these are big jumps. What we could achieve now is a more ordinary electric car with solar panels that keep the battery charged up when not in use as I understand that they all discharge over time. This could be built on gradually to arrive at a fully solar charging car but we do need to start!
Carpe Solem! (For us, Aptera all day. Aptera all the way! But, good vibes to the other two as well!)
I liked the Aptera but I did not know about the 2.2 m width issue. If true it needs to be dealt with IMO.
I hope Lightyear will be successful.
Good, thoughtful episode. About a very relevant subject. I hate these three companies struggle. And as bare bones as this episode is, it might rekindle the enthusiasm of supporters of these companies, and even be of some comfort to the people behind these amazing endeavours. Thanks for sharing your sympethatic view on the matter.
Oh man... I was really hanging out for the Sono Sion. That would be might first electric car. C'mon Sono!
Best recap ever
If I had to choose one, I'd go with Aptera. I'd love a 4/5-seater, but I know when they DO finally make one, it'll be amazing.
Rooting for all of them
Could you do some more videos on electric infrastructure and public transport. I also liked the episode about the energy Independent village. If you could shed some more light on that concept on a smaller scale, what people can adopt or just be aware of besides cars
Don't forget there's quite a lot on those subjects in their podcast side channel "Everything Electric Show".
Definitely I'm wishing all three solar car companies success. I'm watching the ocean swallow a nation while stateside too many people feel perfectly comfortable staying with the familiar patterns they are use to. The response seems like people in the states feel like... its not seriously affecting their expectations or quality of life so why the concern with radical change now?
So you think the Aptera motorcycle will swim?
A sobering but very interesting and frank episode, which also contained some very much needed humour. Particularly sad to see Sono Motors go under shortly after this aired. They really gave it their best shot and deserved to succeed. A horribly tough old game. And I can't help feeling that all it would have taken was one leather-faced billionaire dipping into (what for them is) their petty cash for all of these companies to make that final leap to production ... 😪
Bright spot: the fisker ocean one and extreme models in production now and slated for delivery at end of Q1 2023 will all feature solar roofs adding around 5 miles of sun powered charging per day.
But only if you park it in the direct sun. The Ioniq 5 had a solar panel roof as an option when released - but they never offered that in countries that don't have the scorching sun required to even make a dent in the energy balance...
@@karlgunterwunsch1950 it will have a gauge in the ui showing the driver the total solar powered miles over it's lifetime, which will add up to a lot of emissions saved over it’s lifetime
Jack and the Fully Charged crew, when you made that list of successful (Tesla and Rivian, is Rivian really considered successful and out of danger of going under yet?) and unsuccessful startup EV makers, did you forget to check with Elliot, you guy in China? In no particular order, Li Auto (founded 2015) sold 130k cars last year, NIO (founded 2014) sold 122k cars and is already in Europe, Xpeng (founded 2014) sold 121k units, Hozon (founded 2014) did 152k units, and Leapmotor (founded 2015) sold 111k units. And those are merely the 5 largest Chinese startup EV manufacturers.
But Jack's points in the video are totally valid, and they explain why Sion or Lightyear have gone under, but the Chinese EV startups are able to ramp to into full volume production.
Financial backing: Unlike Sion/Lightyear/Aptera, the Chinese automakers can attract investment from central and local government sources, which not only have money to spend, but also see these companies as job creators for their local regions. When NIO was about to go under, the local government where their factory is to be located stepped in and bailed them out, tiding them over until they can reach full production.
Supply chain: More cars are sold in China than anywhere else. More cars are built in China than anywhere else. And more importantly, way way way more ELECTRIC cars are built and sold in China than anywhere else. Whether it is access to lithium cells, electric motors, software solutions, or mundane components like steel, tires, seats, paint etc, supply is but a stone's throw away in China, and readily available. Economics of scale means these Chinese automakers can get components cheaply and get their production off the ground quickly.
Moreover, the level of human resources available to a Chinese startup, where there are millions of workers in the local automotive industry with expertise in both hardware and software fronts is simply not available to a small startup in Europe or the US. And the market where you can immediately sell you cars and obtain revenue is also so much bigger and easier in China, where 20 plus million cars are sold every year, and the government is putting in all sorts of policies (and more importantly the INFRASTRUCTUR) to promote the sales of plug in vehicles. This creates literally millions of new EV customers every years, making it easier for the startups to grab a slice of that market.
So it isn't surprising at all to see Lightyear/Sion fail, Aptera/Canoo probably about to fail, and Rivian/Lucid struggling with production hell, while the Chinese automotive startups are all up and running already. They may not all make it, but they've at least reached the volume production stage, and most of them are now into their second gen vehicles, while the western startups can barely even get their first model into prod.
I still don't understand why people are so obsessed with the idea of putting solar panels on the car itself. It compromises so much of the design, generates a pittance of power due to limited surface area vs energy required to power a car, and depends on your parking your car out in the direct sun somewhere (unshaded by anything) to get any real benefit. Put the solar panels on your roof, parkade, empty field, anywhere and just plug the car in - electricity is trivial to move around on wires, and it's available effectively everywhere.
Very good point about the size being too big for non-American countries. As an Australian I initially put down interest thinking the Aptera was much smaller than it was, also because I couldn’t get my hands on a long range Carver.
Also the more Aptera talks about Tesla chargers etc. the more they are going to alienate those from CCS standard countries, although I do believe it is going to come our way at some point via motorbikes etc. if nothing else, but we don’t have the charging infrastructure for them yet so Aptera pouring so much of their focus into their American rather than their international customers while understandable in some aspects, is also offputting.
On the flip side I put my name down with the full understanding that the Aptera was far more likely to my _second_ EV rather than my first simply because it wasn’t in production yet and I’m Australian so everything always arrives later here, also the pesky ‘is it a car or a motorbike?’ thing when it comes to ‘will I actually be allowed to drive it?’
Also the irony that Aptera is encourage people to spend more money to get closer to getting their vehicles first while personally one of the things stopping me from cancelling my order is 1) it wasn’t a lot of money and 2) I’m so far down the end of the line that there will likely be _plenty_ of time for me to see All The Things when they finally roll the car out, and hopefully Aptera will have figured quite a few things out before my name gets called. So I am quite happy to not be anywhere near the front right now.
If the cells hold up over years of ownership, it can be a reasonable way to trickle charge the battery. But nothing within 30 years expected that will make it a primary source of power. But great if you only use the car once a week and it can sit out in the sun until then.
I hope these companies manage to keep going. I cannot understand why major car companies don't offer it.
Due to location my circumstances mean a car is almost a necessity as well as I like the idea of freedom of choice. I only do a couple of thousand miles a year and self charging whilst the car is sitting is very attractive. Being a motorhomer the self charging can't be that complicated, I assume.
And whatever people say about Elon Musk it was his vision for a better world and willingness to put his wealth behind it is what got Tesla over the issues these guys are facing.
You seem to forget the best Solar EV, the Xbus build by Electric brands.
Last month they made the deal with the Dutch car company VDL, that builds the Mini.
In 2023 the first small Evetta (not solar) will be in production, but the production of the Xbus will start in 2024. And not for €250.000 like the Lightyear, but for around €19.000 for the base model.
A total of 9 models with countless configurations. All with very large solar packs that can always be outfitted with larger battery packs later on.
Refreshingly not an EV that follows the rule of BIG BIGGER BIGGEST HUGE.
But with a smaller footprint, LFP batteries that can be extended for different use cases, and lots of other innovations.
As with Lightyear and Sono. Having a contract with contract maker doesn't guarantee it goes to production. It does ensure the technical and practical ability is there. Guestion is, is the money. Why is Sono suddenly saying "We need this huge pile of money, now."? To pull the trigger on Valmet actually starting production. So far there has been prototyping and pre work, maybe production tooling making, setting up supply line bids. Now would be the time to say "Yes make us 10 000 of these". Well Company like Valmet will want cash in hand before they produce. Most likely even the first batch fully paid out before hand. So they aren't left with expensively retooled production line and some produced cars and buyer with no money. It would bankrupt Valmet Automotive and they have no plans to go bankrupt. They want hard cash for making the tooling and hard cash for each car. Will the car sell to customers? Not Valmets problem, Sono's problem. Sono give us X million Euros, we will make you 10 000 Sions and deliver them to you. After that you can do with them what you want. Not our problem, we got our money, did our job, contract complete.
Contract makers don't do "we (the brand) give your share of the money once we sell the car to customer". It's cash in hand or no product leaves the factory. Production doesn't start until brand has paid enough start up fees to cover the tooling costs. Again so company like Valmet is not left with retooled production line and then customer brand going "oh actually... we changed our mind, don't want it produced" or between starting retooling and retooling being complete the customer brand has gone bankrupt. Again leaving contract maker holding the bag. Contract makers plan never to be left holding the bag. Their contracts and payment structures are constructed to protect them against volatile automotive market. Model doesn't sell? Not contract makers problem. Brand goes bankrupt? Not contract makers problem. They get everything paid before hand or at maximum on delivery of product on at most favorable to the customer brand.
Xbus make the most ridiculous claims of the lot. If you do the calculations their claims on range means their vehicle is twice as efficient as a Renault Twizy (the most efficient EV on sale) and their claim of 200 km per day from solar panels is true... as long you're in Alice Springs in the height of summer.
@@drunkenhobo8020 Every claim of EV builders is the theoratical maximum. That Twizy is 50kg leighter but is way older tech and has no solar panels.
The total range of 200km was with the largest solar roofs and outfitted on the model with extra the side panels.
Assuming you ride that EV on a sunny place all day.
And remember, the Xbus only weighs 500kg empty.
It was measured with a average speed of (i think) 42kmh. Higher speeds lower range.
It is never designed for highway rides, but has a topspeed of 100kmh.
Other experts calculated it to be correct. There is a video of that on YT.
It is not a replacement for the average salon car or SUV.
It is a new segment of very lightweight EV's .
@@aritakalo8011 Many tekst, could be less and say the same.
Lightyear cost €250.000 and loses on every car. Sono has an estimated starting price of €31.000, where already a lot competition is.
Xbus has an estimated starting price of €18.000. No competition what so ever.
Dealer network is up and running, Insurance and Banking side is in place. It is a crowdfunded project and many buyers already made downpayment. First 2 models are in prototype and fully running.
I guess they have a good chance to pull it of. We will see in about 18 months.
@@BMWHP2 Seems disingenuous to put the theoretical maximum when it will never be achieved.
Similarly, saying it only weighs 500 kg is nonsense. That's without batteries.
I wasn't even counting the solar panels when it comes to efficiency. Their range per kWh battery on EV alone (ignoring the extra range from solar panels) is twice that of a Twizy. That's not advancement in technology - that's witchcraft. If you want a more modern example, it's also about twice that of a Citroen Ami, which is a new quadricycle.
My Nissan LEAF 30kw/hr takes about 13 hours for a full charge from a 3kw domestic outlet.
3kw of solar panels is a big area, even bigger if you factor in less than 100% perfect conditions to generate 3kW. So the most you could hope for is a car that charged up over several days.
A good product seldom has problems to find investors. If they are staying away, than there is a reason for it. And it so happens that it is the very reason why no established car company put solar panels on their cars yet: it doesn't make sense (yet). The cost and weight added by the panels offset the gains by such a large margin, that it's better for everyone involved (including mother nature) to simply omit them. In some years, when solar panels offer bigger efficiency, this will change and I am certain, that there will be investors at the ready. But for now, this simply is not a viable concept.
By your statement "The cost and weight added by the panels offset the gains by such a large margin, that it's better for everyone involved (including mother nature) to simply omit them." it seems clear you don't really have an appreciation for the cost and weight of the solar panels on Aptera or Sono. Lightyear's are indeed heavy BTW. They are double glass.
If we were just talking about attempting the retrofit of a standard design, you would be correct. But this isn't the case for Aptera, for sure, and perhaps for others.
@@bobhilder1469 You can actually do the math pretty quickly. And it doesn't add up for the Sono for sure.
@@NameNaameNameeNaamee So you say. Feel free to SHOW the cost a weight "math" for Sono's solar.
The problem with all 3 is - you can buy solar car today. Get any electric car, put additional 4-5 kW array on your roof and voila - you can have solar powered car right now.
The main problem therefore is that people that can buy startup car with no service network have enough money to do what I described above usually, so why wait and why risk it?
Sono, for me, had the highest potential not thanks to solar, but due to very utilitarian vehicle type. But the loooong delays probably caused them to run out of money.
Their solar roof program for buses, trucks etc - that's brilliant!
It's always hard to introduce bold, new ideas. I like taking the shortcut: use another design and fit your own changes into it. I mean produce your own drive train and retrofit into existing vehicles. Easier than going through from scratch. The opposite of making car and using existing drive train.
Surface area is quite small I suppose therefore making it difficult to get enough battery charge. Sorry Jack but on a different subject could you please cover why there is a 10% drop in BEV car prices and also why the insurance groups are so high? Many thanks.
Hope is works out well for these companies.
That didn't age too well, Lightyear and the Sion branch of Sono motors are gone...
Sunny days
Oh, sunny, sunny, sunny days
Ain't nothin' better in the world, you know
Than lyin' in the sun with your radio
Good to hear that these three solar EVs companies are getting enough capital to keep going these cars are ground breaking thanks for the update
Two f them are already gone, Aptera will follow.
Come on Lightyear. I desperately want you to do well. That said, the tech looks so unbelievably solid on the Zero, you can't help but feel one of the big players would buy the intelectual property if it all fell apart. They would take the risk
Absolutely. It all looks like the big players are there in the shadows to make sure that these three don’t get the cash they need…
It's a common strategy in the tech industry to set up a company not with the intention of ever actually making something, but of being bought up by an established player. The problem comes when the big players say "Hard pass, sorry."
It will never happen because cars I want to come out never do. I think there is an entire industry built around teasing me with cool car ideas.
Imagine losing your deposit money and additional fundraiser money trying to prop up the company 🙈
Aptera deposit money is placed in escrow and can be requested back at any time. It is not at risk. Investments are risky and should be made with the knowledge that the amount invested might be lost.
I invest in Aptera for the same reason I donate to charities that are working to help create the kind of world I want to live in - not necessarily for a direct financial return, even though in Aptera's case that may happen.
Imagine hoarding all your money and doing nothing useful with it until you die lonely and intestate.
I wonder if Fisker took a safer approach by making a car that will happen to have solar panels (in its top trim line). On one hand they are only promising a few miles a day worth of solar, but on the other hand they have a much simpler system and are primarily selling the Ocean's range & performance.
I think that this is the way to do it. Solar is unlikely to be the defining thing about any reasonably normal car (aptera is a little different - makes sense as a solar vehicle) - if more manufacturers offered it, it would become more normal. I often do well under 100 miles in a week - being able to to up 20-30 over a week would probably marginally reduce my costs and mean fewer charges required. The convenience is the real win for me because the cost would likely mean the savings take an age to come through. Not much use at all for someone who drives 500 a week however. Offering as an option gives the choice..
Mirrors can track the sun , it could boost solar powered charging . Parking a vehicle in special charging areas , cheap tracking technology could communicate with the car computer to concentrate filtered solar energy to the EV solar panels . This could boost charging on cloudy days and be used in rural charging systems that charge solar panels in the vehicle charging foot print area to its own off grid battery for charging at night and make green money .
In the same time making it quiet risky for the owner to return to the car mid afternoon. Shirt and Jacket might get burns.
If you are going to park in particular locations it makes much more sense to have fixed solar panels powering an EV charger.
and all of these the issue is going to mass production and not the Solar input.
Damn it, I still want an Aptera when we can get one in Australia 🤞🤞🤞🤞🤞🤞👃
@fullycharged why do you always use Sono images and videos from a couple of years ago? seems like you do that in every video talking about them?
very timely Fully Charged
Personally I think the idea of solar powered cars will not take off. There’re several technical reasons for that. Honestly I never put my car in the full sun. Local solar production and storage is much easier and more efficient, next to charging your car overnight the solar energy can also be used for other loads.
It is not an either/or choice. When V2G is standardized, which is getting close, SEVs can be used to support the grid, and the local production will extend the practicality on camping trips. We plan to use ours to camp in Death Valley immediately after picking ours up at the factory, and the full solar will provide wonderful added utility.
Kurt, I tend to agree with you regarding the current Aptera design for Belgium, based on my own driving experience there. It was not designed for your conditions. I do think that in the future we will see a version more optimized for your roads.
8 months later, Aptera is awaiting the full body with glass installed from CPC in Italy. Then they’ll build 5-10 vehicles for validation. (Crash, electrical,suspension and solar)
I wonder if any of these solar-electric car companies would have a better chance if they set up shop in Australia. Australia-wide we have some of the most sunniest weather and conditions year-round, it would make more sense for these car companies to firmly establish themselves here. We have the resources, the potential to re-establish car manufacturing here, and given the amount of outdoor car park spaces, there is a higher potential and lower risk for these companies here.
Where is Australia?
Maybe it’s better to make these kit cars vs trying to raise and spend so much on the mass production side with the risk going bankrupt. There is a lot of us who would love to build their own solar kit EV. Just a thought.
The Fisker Ocean is rolling off the production line at Magna/Steyer in Graz, Austria at the moment. The “One” and “Extreme” do have solar panels on the roof. Not sure why not mentioned at all as Jack spoke highly of it a year ago.
I just received an email that the Sion project is terminated, will be sold and deposits retuned in three installments. So we have to wait for an “affordable” ev with solar panels.
The Fisker doesn't use the solar panels for charging the car, but for running the onboard electronics. Less surface area, less power.
I’m impressed with these vehicles!! There’s only one that I might purchase and that’s the SUV!!
My 3kw solar installation just about breaks even in the West Midlands on my house. Not sure a solar car would work north of the Watford gap due to the radiation map.