Get a 10% discount on all kitchen and home goods products at Kooi Housewares using my link: kooihousewares.com/GRANTBAKES10. Edit: Looks like the Dough Whisk got wiped out of stock 😅 You can get the same one on Amazon here: amzn.to/3TNT8a7 (Both links are affiliate links.)
I've been baking bread for decades, and I love flavor - a lot of flavor! My approach begins with starter and an extended proof (over proof), to the point of the dough nearly breaking down - almost becoming all starter. I work in a bit more sugar, water, salt and flour. The added flour provides more structure, the sugar more fuel, the salt slowing yeast overgrowth. I pinch off portions to freeze as needed for later. So, my "starters" are much larger portions - these contributing more fermentation products; balanced with fresh flour for structure and a teaspoon of sugar to reinvigorate the lift.
Fascinating results, thank you for sharing! Definitely going to try a long fridge proof with my next loaf. Thanks for all your efforts in the Quest for Sourness.
Grant, I’ve been using a starter that is 100% rye flour & that is what gets my bread more sour. Each time I make bread the starter gets more sour. I also use your 80% hydration recipe but add whole wheat flour & ground flax seeds. Sometimes sunflower & sesame seeds. I never have the same ratio of the different flours or seeds but I make sure all flours add up to 450grams.
I use 1 Tbls each of flax seed whole & chia seeds. Absorbs some of the 400 g water I use & bread doesn’t dry out much. 18 hrs long ferment in frig for sourness. 😊
In my experience, the longer I leave it in the fridge is what gives it more tang, that’s assuming a normal starter rise time and a normal bulk fermentation time. I would be curious to see if extending all three fermentation stages, as this video shows, makes a difference in the sourness I already get by extra long fridge fermentation. Great video as always!
My most sour loaves were after: A very active starter, used at peak or just after. Much smaller amount of starter per loaf (25-50g). A long, cooler, bulk ferment. (Over night ~12hours) A minimum of 36h in the refrigerator.
The temperature of the fridge matters, too. Mine was too cold so I upped it to the highest available setting and it helped the tang. I’d like to try a long cool, maybe 45 to 50 F, proof. I’ve also had some success using only 5% starter as less starter means longer fermentation.
I use organic whole rye flour for my starter. Definitely gives a really good sourdough flavor. Makes sense, because it’s a whole grain, that the yeast and bacteria feed off of.
Great video as always, Grant. Have you done any tests on increasing the amount of declining starter, as in, more than the typical bakers percentage (20%)? Say to ~30-40%? That’s A LOT of starter, which I think would alter fermentation times, BUT would it taste sour? No idea. The base thought of it is… if more acidity is used would it taste more tangy 🤷♂️
I tested the large amount of starter theory in the first video of this series. At least for me and the way I tested it, it didn't produce extra sour bread. But, the theory makes sense to me, especially if the large amount of starter is very acidic.
This is absolutely the best channel I’ve found! I made your cinnamon rolls yesterday and they were the best. Finally someone that doesn’t over complicate. ❤
WOOT! You did it. So excited over here. This has me draw the conclusion that adding some 20% or so wheat to the recipe expedites the fermentation. This is why I’m getting those results a little bit faster but 🎉.
@@GrantBakes I ran a parallel experiment and let my dough cold proof 36 hours as compared to my standard 24. It was maybe a bit more sour but the taste was definitely more complex, can’t explain it but I really like it. I hate waiting the extra time but I’m thinking it’s going to have to be part of the new process for me. Thanks again for sharing for all our benefits
This was really informative for me. Not the tang you wanted but you fulfilled my question as to how long is too long for fermentation. Now I know I can leave my 1st rise longer than I have been. Yah!!!
Hi! I got these from Kooi Housewares. Here’s my affiliate link: www.kooihousewares.com/products/lilypad-lid-11?variant=39495296909347. You can use the code GRANTBAKES10 at checkout to get 10% off.
Great stuff! I’ve also found that lowering the hydration can give you more proofing time, which you showed is what makes the bread more sour. The gluten/dough strength degrades from fermentation AND water. My most sour bakes were from recipes with about 50 to 60% hydration
So, I dunno if you will ever read this or not but I figured what the hell. I am also someone who likes to make sourdough. I have my own starter of course and its pretty sour. I won't bother with details except to say that I keep the starter on the thicker side, I don't feed the 1:1 more like 1 to .67 in other words more four than water to keep the starter a bit more on the pasty side and not liquidy. I also keep it in the fridge when not in use. 1. I pull out the starter the night before, feed it immediately out of the fridge while it's still cold (I use warm water) and leave it on the counter overnight. 2. In the morning mix 75% of the water and the starter, and I mix it VERY WELL. Then I add all the salt along with 75% the flour, and no I don't measure the starter I estimate about 3/4 of a cup. I then mix this very well and leave it on the counter to rise. 3. Once the dough has increased in volume noticeably (not a full proof, just enough rise to be sure its active) I put this dough in the fridge. 4. I leave the dough in the fridge and this is THE ONLY THING THAT HAS WORKED FOR ME TO GET A MORE SOUR TASTE. The longer I leave it in the fridge (and I am talking about days, not hours) the stronger it gets. My best breads are left in the fridge for a week. 5. When I decide it's been long enough, I leave the dough on the counter overnight, then in the morning I hit it with the last 25% of the flour and as much of the remaining water as it needs to get to the texture I want. 6. At this point I let it proof on the counter until it begins to rise again, do my final shape, give it a final rise and bake it. Now, if you take anything from what I've said, let it be this. You have to mix the dough let it start to proof so the bacteria become active then put it in the fridge and let it ferment, LONG COLD FERMENT. You get nothing if you do it overnight, it starts to happen at 2 days, and it becomes stronger the longer it goes. I like 7 days, but your mileage may vary. I love sour sourdough and this is the only thing I've ever tried that actually gets me the twang I want. Last thing, the part about letting it start to rise BEFORE I put it in the fridge for the long ferment, that part matters, I tried it without letting it rise and the twang wasn't there the bacteria have to have the time on the counter to get going BEFORE you put the dough in the fridge... unfortunately if you leave it too long they eat the gluten and the bread won't rise. Mix, allow the bacteria to start the rise, then into the fridge and let it ferment, I've gone up to 10 days, but a week for me is ideal. Might be writing all this for nothing, maybe you won't read it but If ya do there's what works for me if ya wanna give it a try.
This is something I’d like to try. Is it possible to skip the added flour and water at the end after the long fridge ferment? Or is the dough too unmanageable without adding additional fliur?
@@paulwalkerusaf I always add flour at the end, the yeast eat too much of the gluten in the fridge to get a good rise without the bit of added flour at the end you get a flat loaf, well not flat but not as much rise as you probably want.
Interesting results and I will try the 48 hour cold proofing. My question to you is what if you made your usual loaf with normal bench rest and final proof then the 48 hour cold nap.... ? Would it be as sour?
I use a dry starter that I keep in the fridge and feed only when I’m at the last 10-20g. This starter is already pretty sour and smells like beer. For the bread I’m mixing whole wheat with all purpose flour and, if I let it in the fridge overnight for the last rise, it definitely gets pretty sour.
Since switching to a higher protein flour I've noticed my loaves are less sour. Maybe this is because the extra protein means that the window for optimal proofing is widened. But perhaps you could try using a blend of flours that add up to a slightly lower total protein content.
Do the exact same process but use 100% whole wheat. I use yecora rojo grain that I freshly mill. It has a very high gluten content and works great! Every time it comes out very sour
I can send u some of my TANGY starter, no experimenting needed. I don't even let it ferment that long but my baked goods are always borderline too sour. Wonder if there's something wrong with it.
Just let your starter go bad, like for a long time. Leave it on the counter for a week or two after a feed. Fridge it. Let it keep going. You'll get more sour. Using more starter also gets it more sour.
if you want more sour -less starter, can be unfed for a longer period of fermentation -less salt 1% instead of 2% -the longer the better, more sour, in cold retard, at 72 hrs nice and sour, longer even more pronounced like 120hrs -ambient temperature the colder it is the more sour for it will take longer to ferment -the older the starter, the more sour, new starter is not great to get more sour u have to give it time to mature -some dark rye and/or whole wheat in the starter and dough will help with more sour -feeding the starter once mature not necessarily everyday, skip a day once or twice a week, but dont let it get acidic that will not be great for the gluten formation in the dough -use very cold water in the dough for bread, will prolong the fermentation time (although this is temporary for fermentation brings on heat)
There’s nobody at home if that’s going to go through those procedures to make sourdough bread if you ever look at the list of chemicals and ingredients in commercial bread baking, you’ll know why their bread is sour right off the bat
Hey @grantbakes I’m quite a newbie at sourdough bread but my friend who has been baking for years (and my mentor) does not over proof her sour dough bread but most always does an extra long cold proof. Her bread is always very pleasantly extra sour. She has left it as long (and maybe longer) as 72 hours to proof. How ‘bout that for an experiment? ❤ 1:36
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Get a 10% discount on all kitchen and home goods products at Kooi Housewares using my link: kooihousewares.com/GRANTBAKES10. Edit: Looks like the Dough Whisk got wiped out of stock 😅 You can get the same one on Amazon here: amzn.to/3TNT8a7 (Both links are affiliate links.)
I've been baking bread for decades, and I love flavor - a lot of flavor!
My approach begins with starter and an extended proof (over proof), to the point of the dough nearly breaking down - almost becoming all starter. I work in a bit more sugar, water, salt and flour.
The added flour provides more structure, the sugar more fuel, the salt slowing yeast overgrowth.
I pinch off portions to freeze as needed for later.
So, my "starters" are much larger portions - these contributing more fermentation products; balanced with fresh flour for structure and a teaspoon of sugar to reinvigorate the lift.
Fascinating results, thank you for sharing! Definitely going to try a long fridge proof with my next loaf. Thanks for all your efforts in the Quest for Sourness.
Grant, I’ve been using a starter that is 100% rye flour & that is what gets my bread more sour. Each time I make bread the starter gets more sour. I also use your 80% hydration recipe but add whole wheat flour & ground flax seeds. Sometimes sunflower & sesame seeds. I never have the same ratio of the different flours or seeds but I make sure all flours add up to 450grams.
I use 1 Tbls each of flax seed whole & chia seeds. Absorbs some of the 400 g water I use & bread doesn’t dry out much. 18 hrs long ferment in frig for sourness. 😊
In my experience, the longer I leave it in the fridge is what gives it more tang, that’s assuming a normal starter rise time and a normal bulk fermentation time. I would be curious to see if extending all three fermentation stages, as this video shows, makes a difference in the sourness I already get by extra long fridge fermentation. Great video as always!
Thank you! The cold fermentation definitely seems to play a big factor so far.
My most sour loaves were after:
A very active starter, used at peak or just after.
Much smaller amount of starter per loaf (25-50g).
A long, cooler, bulk ferment. (Over night ~12hours)
A minimum of 36h in the refrigerator.
The temperature of the fridge matters, too. Mine was too cold so I upped it to the highest available setting and it helped the tang. I’d like to try a long cool, maybe 45 to 50 F, proof. I’ve also had some success using only 5% starter as less starter means longer fermentation.
I use organic whole rye flour for my starter. Definitely gives a really good sourdough flavor.
Makes sense, because it’s a whole grain, that the yeast and bacteria feed off of.
Great video as always, Grant. Have you done any tests on increasing the amount of declining starter, as in, more than the typical bakers percentage (20%)? Say to ~30-40%? That’s A LOT of starter, which I think would alter fermentation times, BUT would it taste sour? No idea. The base thought of it is… if more acidity is used would it taste more tangy 🤷♂️
I tested the large amount of starter theory in the first video of this series. At least for me and the way I tested it, it didn't produce extra sour bread. But, the theory makes sense to me, especially if the large amount of starter is very acidic.
I've tried increasing the amount of levain, which theoreticallly increases the amount of starter, which did not result in greater sourness.
This is absolutely the best channel I’ve found!
I made your cinnamon rolls yesterday and they were the best.
Finally someone that doesn’t over complicate. ❤
Thanks, Grant. Bravo. You did it.
WOOT! You did it. So excited over here. This has me draw the conclusion that adding some 20% or so wheat to the recipe expedites the fermentation. This is why I’m getting those results a little bit faster but 🎉.
Thanks for sharing!
@@GrantBakes would be super interesting to see a side by side with the citric acid loaf to compare the taste and which you prefer
@@johnsonrobbins True, that would be a good comparison. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that I preferred the real sourdough loaf.
@@GrantBakes I ran a parallel experiment and let my dough cold proof 36 hours as compared to my standard 24. It was maybe a bit more sour but the taste was definitely more complex, can’t explain it but I really like it. I hate waiting the extra time but I’m thinking it’s going to have to be part of the new process for me. Thanks again for sharing for all our benefits
This was really informative for me. Not the tang you wanted but you fulfilled my question as to how long is too long for fermentation. Now I know I can leave my 1st rise longer than I have been. Yah!!!
Great video thank you. Were do u get the air tight seals for your bowls?
Hi! I got these from Kooi Housewares. Here’s my affiliate link: www.kooihousewares.com/products/lilypad-lid-11?variant=39495296909347.
You can use the code GRANTBAKES10 at checkout to get 10% off.
@@GrantBakes thank you!!! Enjoying watching your videos. Keep them coming
Great stuff! I’ve also found that lowering the hydration can give you more proofing time, which you showed is what makes the bread more sour. The gluten/dough strength degrades from fermentation AND water. My most sour bakes were from recipes with about 50 to 60% hydration
Great insight! Thanks for sharing.
So, I dunno if you will ever read this or not but I figured what the hell. I am also someone who likes to make sourdough. I have my own starter of course and its pretty sour. I won't bother with details except to say that I keep the starter on the thicker side, I don't feed the 1:1 more like 1 to .67 in other words more four than water to keep the starter a bit more on the pasty side and not liquidy. I also keep it in the fridge when not in use.
1. I pull out the starter the night before, feed it immediately out of the fridge while it's still cold (I use warm water) and leave it on the counter overnight.
2. In the morning mix 75% of the water and the starter, and I mix it VERY WELL. Then I add all the salt along with 75% the flour, and no I don't measure the starter I estimate about 3/4 of a cup. I then mix this very well and leave it on the counter to rise.
3. Once the dough has increased in volume noticeably (not a full proof, just enough rise to be sure its active) I put this dough in the fridge.
4. I leave the dough in the fridge and this is THE ONLY THING THAT HAS WORKED FOR ME TO GET A MORE SOUR TASTE. The longer I leave it in the fridge (and I am talking about days, not hours) the stronger it gets. My best breads are left in the fridge for a week.
5. When I decide it's been long enough, I leave the dough on the counter overnight, then in the morning I hit it with the last 25% of the flour and as much of the remaining water as it needs to get to the texture I want.
6. At this point I let it proof on the counter until it begins to rise again, do my final shape, give it a final rise and bake it.
Now, if you take anything from what I've said, let it be this. You have to mix the dough let it start to proof so the bacteria become active then put it in the fridge and let it ferment, LONG COLD FERMENT. You get nothing if you do it overnight, it starts to happen at 2 days, and it becomes stronger the longer it goes. I like 7 days, but your mileage may vary. I love sour sourdough and this is the only thing I've ever tried that actually gets me the twang I want. Last thing, the part about letting it start to rise BEFORE I put it in the fridge for the long ferment, that part matters, I tried it without letting it rise and the twang wasn't there the bacteria have to have the time on the counter to get going BEFORE you put the dough in the fridge... unfortunately if you leave it too long they eat the gluten and the bread won't rise. Mix, allow the bacteria to start the rise, then into the fridge and let it ferment, I've gone up to 10 days, but a week for me is ideal. Might be writing all this for nothing, maybe you won't read it but If ya do there's what works for me if ya wanna give it a try.
This is something I’d like to try. Is it possible to skip the added flour and water at the end after the long fridge ferment? Or is the dough too unmanageable without adding additional fliur?
@@paulwalkerusaf I always add flour at the end, the yeast eat too much of the gluten in the fridge to get a good rise without the bit of added flour at the end you get a flat loaf, well not flat but not as much rise as you probably want.
Interesting results and I will try the 48 hour cold proofing. My question to you is what if you made your usual loaf with normal bench rest and final proof then the 48 hour cold nap.... ? Would it be as sour?
I use a dry starter that I keep in the fridge and feed only when I’m at the last 10-20g. This starter is already pretty sour and smells like beer. For the bread I’m mixing whole wheat with all purpose flour and, if I let it in the fridge overnight for the last rise, it definitely gets pretty sour.
Since switching to a higher protein flour I've noticed my loaves are less sour. Maybe this is because the extra protein means that the window for optimal proofing is widened. But perhaps you could try using a blend of flours that add up to a slightly lower total protein content.
Do you let loaf warm to room temperature after taking out of the fridge from you 48 hour proof??? Or does it go from fridge to oven?
Do the exact same process but use 100% whole wheat. I use yecora rojo grain that I freshly mill. It has a very high gluten content and works great! Every time it comes out very sour
Do you put the lid on or is it a jarred?
For the starter? I usually put the lid on at all times. My jar let’s excess gas release from the lid if it builds up.
What’s surprised me is how soft the loaf was. do you think create softness?
interesting test and comments. I'm waiting for written instructions to give this a try. Thank You Grant, your like me... very persistent...lol
I can send u some of my TANGY starter, no experimenting needed. I don't even let it ferment that long but my baked goods are always borderline too sour. Wonder if there's something wrong with it.
Back in the days when I did sourdough, I used beer instead of water to feed the starter... eventually the starter made very sour dough
I will try a longer proofing in the fridge also.
I'm not sure if I'm imagining it but I find that my 100% wholewheat sourdough tastes a bit more sour to me. Might be worth a test?
There's probably something to that!
What if I don’t have banner on Banton anytime, I use tea towels, it always sticks to it
Thanks for sharing 😊❤👍🏼
Just let your starter go bad, like for a long time. Leave it on the counter for a week or two after a feed. Fridge it. Let it keep going. You'll get more sour.
Using more starter also gets it more sour.
I said something similar to this on his first quest. His 👂 doesn’t work apparently 🤣
Oh, I hear just fine :) Who says I'm not working on this as we speak? Haha. Thank you both for sharing.
@@GrantBakes I’m just giving you a hard time! A kick in the ass to move you along 🦵🏻, I mean for the bread 😁
Interesting Grant 👍🏻
Thanks!
Can you put the recipe under more on your video so we can print it please 😊❤👍🏼
if you want more sour
-less starter, can be unfed for a longer period of fermentation
-less salt 1% instead of 2%
-the longer the better, more sour, in cold retard, at 72 hrs nice and sour, longer even more pronounced like 120hrs
-ambient temperature the colder it is the more sour for it will take longer to ferment
-the older the starter, the more sour, new starter is not great to get more sour u have to give it time to mature
-some dark rye and/or whole wheat in the starter and dough will help with more sour
-feeding the starter once mature not necessarily everyday, skip a day once or twice a week, but dont let it get acidic that will
not be great for the gluten formation in the dough
-use very cold water in the dough for bread, will prolong the fermentation time (although this is temporary for fermentation brings on heat)
Why did you add an extra 25 grams of water?
I've been using a 75% hydration dough for these sourness tests, which is 25 more grams of water than my normal recipe at 70% hydration.
I see. Thanks. I only use your recipe and method. So I got a little panicked when I heard you say 325 mg of water! 😂.
@@Rosalia81918 Haha I get it. It’s ok though, I use both 😊
Love from acero Cruz ❤
¡Muchas gracias!
If you want it more sour try adding a half a teaspoon of citric acid😂❤
Also stir in the hooch the liquid on top for more sour❤
I’ve done that!
There’s nobody at home if that’s going to go through those procedures to make sourdough bread if you ever look at the list of chemicals and ingredients in commercial bread baking, you’ll know why their bread is sour right off the bat
I assume you’re referring to citric acid and other additives?
Hey @grantbakes I’m quite a newbie at sourdough bread but my friend who has been baking for years (and my mentor) does not over proof her sour dough bread but most always does an extra long cold proof. Her bread is always very pleasantly extra sour. She has left it as long (and maybe longer) as 72 hours to proof. How ‘bout that for an experiment? ❤ 1:36
👍🎩❤️
Yeah, no way you’re actually using that dough whisk. Sell out
Oh yes I am 😊
@@GrantBakes
Well, you’re making a mistake, then. It wasn’t made for mixing bread doughs and you’re just making it harder for yourself.