Fandom's Biggest Controversy: The Story of Proshippers vs Antis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ส.ค. 2021
- Let's talk about the second biggest ship-related controversy that happened this past March. Sorry, Suez Canal fans. Visit www.curiositystream.com/sarahz and get thousands of exciting documentaries and access to my streaming service Nebula!
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Hey everyone! Hope y'all liked the video- I will do my best to get captions up as quickly as possible. In the meantime, if you want to show support, you can pick up the libel mug shown in the video (or a ton of other things) at my merch link here! Bonus: I will not accuse you of murder for saying the merch is cringe. store.nebula.app/collections/sarah-z
Just gonna leave a comment at the top here before the replies get flooded by brainrot. Good video Sarah. :)
Heck yeah! I didn’t order one in time before they were out of stock last time around so that’s super good! I have now ordered one!
The merch is cringe…
Just kidding just kidding, I’ve just preordered a “Young, Dumb, and full of Libel” mug. Video is fantastic as usual!
yes i loved this video thank you for spilling tea on internet drama i knew nothing about
Will you be captioning the video about the Homestuck legal threat?
the term "anti-anti" is the single funniest label for any ideology ever. "I oppose people who are against. things"
lon! ni li nasa mute
woah hey bestie
new ideology: anti-anti-anti
i oppose opposing people who are against things
anti ad infinitum
Ppl generally go for proshipper. Id say its fair in a way to take an opposite position to people who are against something but sure it sounds dumb. But so does just the word “anti”, sounds like you’re just against things, like in general.
i strongly considered tweeting in defense of you at the time, but i talked myself out of it by imagining explaining the controversy to my grandma
You need more likes.
Omg it's the one (1) icon 😍
this feels like a crossover episode
Kinda speaks to how weird and out of left field some of this is haha. Who in my real life would understand any of this
It really puts into perspective when you try to explain this to not an online person.
Sarah: the reading comprehension on this site is piss-poor
bird app users: how dare you say we piss on the poor
Twitter I just Tumblr on a delay with a shorter word limit. I honestly think you didn't really get this sort of stuff until you had that Golden Age of fandom in the early 10s... and that's only of the three things that really kinda blended to make this mess.
thank you for this joke Pink Nintendo DS Lite
Sarah: *talks about the history on both sides and says harassing is still bad regardless*
Pro-ships/antis: Wait a minute, she didnt agree with our stance *proceeds to harass and insult her*
Yeah, that's some kinky shit......
Me who read this as "how dare you say we piss on the floor"
(I wager the additional nuance in using a rhyming and fitting word like "floor" instead of the same words rearranged makes the joke funnier, but that's my two cents)
see, the labels "proshippers" and "antis" are so reductive that i don't consider myself either, but what annoys me is both sides refuse to admit they've got weirdos who take it too far in their own respective circles.
From the video, it kind of seems like the weirdos who take it too far are the main ones, not the exceptions.
@@PikaPenny17 yeah, people who aren't like that aren't going to attach some stupid label to themselves.
@@overgrownkudzu People who aren't weirdos can still attach labels to themself though.
@@overgrownkudzu proshippers (as in labeled themselves such in their descrip) and people who openly reblogged p*rn of minor / child characters kept following me on twitter so I put anti in my bio to show
1. Don't follow me and
2. I dont tolerate that behavior here
And it worked. Only maybe had one person since then follow me who did that
I like to think I'm not some weirdo just because I don't wanna see and don't want others to ship minors with adults, and relatives, and ESPECIALLY dont wanna see p*rn of it
It's the vocal minority... but boy are they loud.
"are you a pro shipper or an anti?"
"i'm in my twenties"
Scary thought: OG Star Treak fandom shippers are getting to an age where they are dying of 'natural causes'
[college kids in the 60's = 80 now!!!]
@@Aima952
Damn. The originators.
batlh Heghjaj
yo you spitting straight bars
i wish. like sarah mentioned a lot of the people are adults. there are more than too many adults invested in this. im sure theres not many 30-40+ but even then i know theyre out there
lmao
wtf Sarah? I’ve just heard from some internet users that you literally support kicking puppies??? sorry but I’m gonna have to unsubscribe 🙄
Izzy I can’t believe you’re a needle cookie truther
@@SarahZ I'm sorry but there were LITERALLY glass in their cupcakes
Excuse me, the puppys pushed her off a bridge or something, she was on the right when you look at the facts
Those puppies know what they did.
excuse me puppies brutally killed Sarah Zs mother when she was just a child. she is traumatized
I wish instead of calling things "problematic" people would just say what actually happened.
I have never agreed more to a comment in my life
Most problematic things are not actually harmful in any way so if they did that they’d have to admit they’re just full of shit
That word has lost all meaning because of Twitter
Deflection, my friend, deflection.
If they just say something’s problematic, then they don’t need to bother with actually demonstrating their understanding about anything.
Twitter really be the kind of place where you can say "I like pancakes" and someone else will take that as "I hate waffles"
But… but I like that thing! I LIKE THAT THING! YOU KNOW WHAT, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO LIKE THAT THING-
@Master Kohga, Top Banana of the Yiga Clan I think the more accurate prozd video that could be quoted here is the one where he loses his keys
The entire internet is like that.
And someone will eventually warp that into "I hate gay people!"
Like where did you even get that from?!
say "i like pancakes" and people decide you like kicking puppies too
these people have to be ai generated
Next year: we made an ai read millions of fandom tweets and they harassed video essay TH-camrs
@@alexandrac6177 😂
Typical meatbag comment, that is why you must be deleted to stop the oppression!
when the tweeter is sus
I’ll bet more than a few of them are chan trolls and other bad faith actors.
After watching this, I think the term “proshippers” needs to be reclaimed by professional ship-in-a-bottle builders, and “antis” needs to be reclaimed by ant-farm enthusiasts. Give these fine hobbyists their words back!
Or postal workers
The poor ants
Antishippers should be taken up by people who went to too many boat museums as a kid and now associate the ocean with hunger followed by cheap seafood which got them stuck in a hotel room with food poisoning for the next day.
She said we've talked ship's of different types. But not once has she talked about frigates.
@@merrittanimation7721 this seems oddly specific. Did this happen to you?
The whole pro anti thing is so terminally online it's insane. If a fictional ship causes you THIS much anguish, and I mean this with complete sincerity, go outside. Honestly, as I got older I realized just what a waste of emotional energy it is to fight tooth and nail to defend my opinions on media as if I was defending my life and I feel 100x better for it.
I'm glad that you realised that over time. You're completely correct. If anyone lets a fictional ship cause them this much stress, they really do just need to step away from the internet for a bit and go outside.
On the anti camp, it's not that I'm actually anti any ship, but as an ace it's frustrating af to be told it's whatever-phobic to read two people as just friends. Like before the Good Omens couple was canonized, it reminded me of myself and a QPP, and I thought it was super sweet and wholesome that two guys wrote their friendship into a book. If I ever said anything online about it though, it was "nuh uh, they're married and they kiss all the time in public and here's my xxx fic and if they remind you of you and someone else it's because you want to marry them. If you don't agree it's because you're homophobic and don't want gays in the media".
Like, even AFTER the author came out and said people could read whatever they wanted into it, people chose to hear "just so long as it's super duper gay" and it's like, can't anyone ever just read people as friends who don't turn into werewolves and juck on main street?
but that's less about any one ship or another, tbh, and is just an extension of my old wound of "if you're squicked out by smut you're a homophobe", but it's always been the loudest in shipping corners
@@MrSlendyMannn it's also just not helpful. fandoms and shipping etc. at their core are supposed to be fun. if it turns into actual anger and stress and harm, and it seems like it does for a lot of these people, on both sides, that's not worth it.
@@PrincessNinja007that's the reasoning you have yeah but that doesn't make you not need to go outside? you're still getting upset about online ships.
In times like these, maybe we should just remember Markipliers very inspiring words regarding stuff on the internet: "You do you, I do me and we don't do each other".
"Probably."
See this is actually the proshipper's position.
"You do you and I'll do me, and we won't do each other." is a proship take.
The anti's take is "I don't like you doing you because you might do it to me, so I'll do you before that happens".
Don’t ya just love it when people on one side of the argument twist your words to make themselves look better. “We disagree, and that’s fine.” is of course a proship take. However it’s also an antiship take. Most proshippers I know just want to be left alone to ship what they want. Most antis I know want to be left alone from the kind of things proshippers ship, and yet there’s constant harassment from both sides. Funny. But the truth of the matter is op’s take is in theory both a proship and antiship mindset, but in practice it’s neither. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to downplay the actions of their side from to fit their own bias.
@@nixxdra Antis also try to "rehabilitate" people by cyber stalking and harassing proshipping minors.
"Fandom isn't as important as you think it is."
Honestly, that sums up the entire thing.
this didnt need to be an hour long video, this sentence alone sums it up
Yep .
This is true, but I do think it's important to place this conflict within the broader context of recent reactionary attempts to purge the internet of sexual content and sex workers. While I agree with Sarah that making "anti" or "pro" part of your identity is weird, that the "pro" side is just as capable of harassment as the "antis" and that both sides have a bad habit of overstating harm, I nevertheless still think that one of these positions ("antis") is fundamentally ideologically grounded in anti-sex reaction and it's important not to lose sight of that. As an isolated phenomenon fans yelling at each other over ships is completely trivial, but I think it is part of a larger sex-negative backlash that has very real consequences for artists, sex workers and queer people more generally.
@@johnbltz that's more on the shoulders of big companies though, isn't it? I don't recall Tumblr, discord, and others being pushed into a corner because of Twitter arguments, but rather the rules put forth by Apple. I don't think internet spats is entirely to blame here, but rather the core beliefs of those in charge. I also think the 'anti-sex' part of this pro/anti war is terribly overstated and focused on when really it's just a fraction of the conversation.
And as a big disclaimer, I believe sex workers have a right to a safe work environment and be able to make money. The banning of sexual works on so many platforms is utterly bizarre and stupid.
@@johnbltz I'd say it does go both ways tho. I would be labeled an "anti" if I cared at all to debate fandoms (which I don't). I'd say the issue is not entirely "anti-sex". It can be the opposite, to un "unhealthy" degree. Especially for queer people, or LGBTQI+ at large (for other groups, I don't really know, Im not involved in them). Sexuality, trough ships can be "trivialised", or made an object, and that's not great either. I'm kinda tired of having my sexuality be a sort of trendy new handbag for girl teens who giggle about their GBF and decide who he should be with (in general, the crush she has herself).
I used to roleplay on post-by-post forums. I stoped doing so when I reached the point where I would barely have created my character and have it shipped without any prior discussion because "he's cute" or "nice or "a bad boy that goes well with...". And I was like... I write for my fun and the fun of my writing partner, not your sexual gratification? While prior to that, it wasn't as usual. And I didn't shy away from more mature roleplays. But as the character evolved, not for a quick thrill. Like, sex shouldn't be shunned, or always serious, but a tiny bit of reverence for the importance of the topic would be a healthy addition.
The irony of people commenting “you have never been the victim of a harrasment campaign” as a part of a harrasment campaign is palpable
"Allow me to demonstrate!"
I notice that people who are the loudest about cancel culture not existing are often the first to get mad at the latest punching bag on Twitter.
Fact: the demographic most likely to perpetuate abuse is previous victims of abuse. (Please note that by "perpetuate" I am including both abusers AND enablers.)
I'm not blaming anyone for being abused, but I am saying that a critical component of recovering from abuse is the rejection of normalization, in order to prevent the perpetuation of that abuse. Unfortunately many who are abused have difficulty fully recovering in this way.
@@scrotiemcb5858 I'd argue that it depends on the person. Someone who is a victim of abuse either will go out of their way to avoid bringing that same pain to others, or will inflict it upon others so they can take back power they feel they lost. It really depends on the empathy of the individual. And unfortunately, abuse can also destroy someone's empathy.
I love your profile pic Dilly! It looks like a robot Loudred, mixed with some Undertale things, very cool!
My problem with Reylo is that it's the most boring enemies to lovers I have ever seen on screen
preach lmao
Thank you😭 they had all the potential in the world. I still like them but makes me sad to think of what could have been. This applies for the Sequels in general too.
Ah well time to go back to the niche corner of Old Republic fans.
Talk about the most boringly subjective comment to ever been typed on youtube.
I agree. I'm more of a Zutara (Zuko and Katara) shipper when it comes to enemies to lovers. It's more of a enemies -> friends -> lovers thing for them though.
This!! God it’s so irritating when people have to make everything into some moral rationale. I don’t give a shit if reylo is “problematic” or whatever, what I give a shit about is that the plot and characterization was sacrificed to make the ship canon.
Seriously. They were so much more interesting as Just Enemies, No Romance. Kylo Ren just shows up at the end of the 3rd sequel all heroic redemption style just to get owned and thrown down a pit immediately, only to come back up and immediately fucking die for hetero reasons. God it’s so fucking lame. We didn’t even get a cool lightsaber battle at the end 😭
I just want to point out that without ‘antis’ as their opposite, the label “pro-shippers” makes them sound like professional shippers
Stolen valor from our honorable postal and logistics workers all across the globe
seems apt
"The shipping wars" sounds like some kind of international trade dispute
Even then, the label seems to suggest you're in favor of people shipping in general, which is a much less controversial thing to say than "in favor of people shipping even if it's controversial/problematic" which adds to the point that it's a really dumb and misleading term
@belombus noobshippers when proshippers walk in
"YOU'VE NEVER BEEN THE VICTIM OF A HARASSMENT CAMPAIGN" -harassment campaign
As someone who was threatened to be doxxed for AOT shipping (a fandom I am not in anyway invested in) this is literally how they act. They will harass you and have people target you and when you try and defend yourself they will say you're the bad person for being mean to them.
The lack of self-awareness is STAGGERING
"It seems you've never been harassed before. I will change that!"
Also peep my cameo at 29:07
I'd say this is a weird hill to die on, but I'd probably be accused of mocking REAL KIDS WHO DIE ON HILLS.
You monster ! Do you know how many children die on hills every year!
Jack and Jill
ARE YOU ASSUMING THAT THOSE HILLS ARE ALL CHILD KILLERS??? #NotAllHills
Go outside.
@@kronemerj Go outside.
the whole pro and anti thing has always confused me tbh; my general take on it is: write/draw/etc what you want, but TAG & LABEL IT PROPERLY. that way, folks who don't wanna see it don't have to (unless they're the type of....odd folks who delve into tags for things they dislike instead of avoiding/blocking/etc...) and folks who do wanna see it can find it easier.
this is so true !!! i enjoy reading a fic that explores dark topics from time to time, but sometimes i'll read a fic and then go to the author's profile and find out from their other works that it was fetish content the whole time. it's not my job to pass moral judgment on that, but it's really not my thing and i imagine for other people it could even be triggering if they were looking for more therapeutic content instead. i wish fic authors would more consistently make authorial intent clear when writing these topics - something that they don't have to disclose personal experiences in order to do!!
not saying this about antis (or pros or any group) specifically but just in general, ime zoomers have no idea how to tag. they can tag for traction, but a lot of them cannot tag content warnings appropriately if at all. i’m also saying this as a zoomer myself
THANK U
unless they’re arseh0les, that’s literally smth the proship community is big on 😭 I mod a dead dove server, and we always make sure EVERYTHING is tagged. I’m proship, but I’m really more of a fluffy gal myself. I just think censorship is stupid
"So are you proship or antiship?"
I'm pro going outside!
Not even going outside just get offline. Just go read a book, finish a puzzle, play a board game! The internet it’s everything
THIS DESERVES MORE LIKES
So you mean you're anti-people staying inside?! How dare you!! REEEEEEEE
"pro-shipper or anti-shipper?"
"grass toucher"
Pet the grass.
Lay in the grass.
Normally you don't want to call yourself a toucher
Once every two to three weeks, I leave the house to touch grass.😌
@@comicattt hope it becomes canon for you.
I hate shipping
I can't believe you LITERALLY just said you support firing babies from cannons. What the fuck Minerva
@@SarahZ Ew, firing babies from canons. Firing babies from OCs is the only acceptable way.
Honestly. What's next, CATEGORIZING the kinds of people behind certain ships? Truly despicable an idea.
Love your vids
So true theyre always so expensive
@@nonsensicalabyss it's always like 80% of the product cost
i always come back to the concept of "IRREDEEMABLE MEDIA: [show made for babies], [show made for babies], [show made for babies], [show made for babies]" when i need to smile. thank you
This video is even more entertaining if you make a point of reminding yourself every 5 minutes that this whole sea of terminology, rhetoric, tribalism and hatred is, at its core, about fictional characters snogging.
You know how people say it's important to learn the difference between infatuation and love? This is what happens when you start seeing your thirst as some sort of calling.
@@PassTheMarmalade1957mhmm. I learned THAT from a French Baguette Intelligence video.
I think that these discussions of character snogging have really fascinating philosophical merit, and should be seen in the eyes of the debaters as another way of working together to seek the truth, explore possibilities, and have fun, rather than as a ruthless war of irredeemable monsters against humanity's saviors or whatnot. No one actually knows anything, we need to remember that no one is actually evil, they just understand the world differently and do "evil" things as a result.
that “fannibals are freaks who don’t take shit” screenshot has big “potterheads grab your wands” energy
I was thinking "They targeted gamers. Gamers"
i was about to try to make a hannibal version of potterheads grab your wands but “fannibals grab your meat” doesnt quite work
@@pluto1906 it does, but that ships individuals with themselves, which will cause recursive shipping, eventually creating a vortex to another dimension...
@@SymbioteMullet somehow, the Oncler has returned
for the love of god please tell me where can i find your profile picture, i need that tired cat in my life
"I am a tax paying adult woman, not a member of a fucking fandom war sports team." Is the single most powerful quote I have heard in my entire life THANK YOU.
It will be used to cancel her though.
@@hazzardalsohazzard2624 for real tho... people on twitter were actually attacking that statement as... elitist and classist or something? 🥴
I need it on a mug to go with the future "young dumb and full of libel" purchase
@@bbshrimp If anything, this video has shown us that we shouldn't give a fuck about what Twitter has to say.
@@PassTheMarmalade1957 YUP exactly 100000% yes. At least the screaming idiots side of it anyhoo.
im a bisexual jewish man. i occasionally rep that pink triangle because... i am a bisexual jewish man. that symbol holds profound weight for me as a reminder of who i am and where i came from. something about a proshipper rainbow meat pin with symbolism like that on it just... confuses me. so deeply in fact that i cant even really feel offended. i just cant wrap my brain around why somebody would decide that's a cool and appropriate symbol to put on their internet fandom discourse participant badge
Uh oh, you're going to piss off the Hannibal fans now.
…no lmao
Gatekeeping much? Jk. Yeah that really sucks.
i think these people are so chronically online that they simply overestimate their own importance by several orders of magnitude, when in reality, nobody cares and it doesn't matter.
Wait, you're guy that Herbert Moon hates!! I can get your autograph:)😳
Tumblr users when the webcomic "Killing Stalking" contains killing and stalking 🤯🤯🤯
Never actually using Twitter seems to be the most self-care thing I've ever done for myself lol
this is what i'm thinking throughout the whole video
I deleted mine a few months ago and my mental state has DRAMATICALLY improved
Same
every day i’m just more and more glad i never made an account
Feeling thankful I'm too stupid to figure out how it works
Before this: I'm a fan of things!
After this: I enjoy things a normal amount, actually.
An average fan, vs the fanatics.
One of the Supernatural actors (King of Hell? Sorry, not in that fandom) talked about why he hates the word “fan”, because it comes from fanatic, which implies loving a thing makes you a loon.
The solution is to be a fan of something where all the rest of the fans died so long ago that the news on the fandom you get is through archeology
@@drewmarteny1495 Make The Lone Ranger, Doc Savage, and John Carter great again!
I scrolled down just to say this lmaooo guess I'm just a casual enjoyer of things nowadays
Don’t even TALK to me if you consume this irredeemable media:
- Barney the Dinosaur
- the Jetsons
- Dragon Tales
- Teen Titans Go
- the Land Before Time
- Mein Kampf
oh god not barney
Thanks, I could never remember what The Land Before Time was called until seeing this comment
The only one of the shows that counts as irredeemable is TTG, as it sells itself as a reboot of the Teen Titans while failing to do anything to make it remotely applicable as that.
As a standalone comedy, it's ok I guess, it clearly want made for older people who were fans of the originals, but the fact that it teased a season 6 of Teen Titans, that never was going to happen, to promote it's movie is irredeemable.
Oh, and the rash of other shows copying it's formula of taking everything that their original show did well, and taking it out back to shoot it before flanderizing it's characters into literal mockeries... It can't be forgiven for that either.
@@the_last_ballad Ok, so I online watched TTG and never the original. I never understood where y'all were coming form. Now I can understand the hate.
But I can say, on it's own, I think the show is pretty fun and I still watch it when it airs on Cartoon Network. Because I'm not a DC fan/don't know a lot about DC, TTG is also an easy way for me to learn about DC without actually diving into something I'm not really interested in. :)
So yeah, I understand the hate, but having online watched TTG, I think the shows stands pretty well on it's own. Although, if I would have watched the original, I probably would hate TTG equally as much as you do. (I also have other "second shows" I hate because they made mockeries out of the characters I liked).
what did the jetsons do wrong?!?!???
"some things are just meant to be understood, not supported or condemned" is such a good thing to remember
girlll you're bringing a war to your comment section and I'm here for it
Fried Chicken 🤩
I see you everywhere lol
yo its fetta cheese
I love watching the same thing as people I watch lmao
That would require the hivemind that is that anti shit to leave twitter for a moment and engage without a character limit.
"Everyone should delete Twitter" is honestly a valid take. My life is happier without it.
indeed
I left all social media about two years ago and I’m better off for it.
@@brycealthoff8092 Um TH-cam is social media
@@shifra1967 if you stretch the definition maybe. I consider TH-cam as video hosting site with delusions. You may be able to post photos and status updates, but that’s not the primary purpose.
Same
So I guess now we know why the Killing Stalking bit was taken out.
I was WONDERING about that.
LOL
Why was it taken out?
@@pinkylove-xb7pe There was a reference in it to a video on the topic by a person named James Sommerton, and that person has now been very publicly exposed for (aside from some unpleasant but not illegal traits) plagiarizing like _all_ of the content in his videos and barely even trying to hide it.
@@lalas181 Oh, so *this* is where I'd seen Somerton before! When the HBomb video went up, I knew I'd seen the guy before, but I don't remember watching any of his actual videos. It must have been here.
i’m a non tax paying male child and even i sometimes find myself deep into fandom or online discourse and think to myself “I am a tax paying adult women” in order to help me realize how none of it really matters
That is the best way to remind yourself things don't matter and I love that for you (I probably sound sarcastic I'm so sorry)
Every time I watch a Sarah Z video I feel like I am an 80 year old woman whose granddaughter is explaining what she's learning in school which is wild because I am like four years younger than her
Me, last night: “I wonder why Sarah Z deactivated her Twitter?” Me, 17 minutes ago: “Oh. Ohhhhhh.”
A wise decision.
Right? Just had the exact same "a-ha" moment.
Oh shit I hadn’t noticed that lmao
@@eduardofeijolle8049 Agreed.
Omg
I always say: "Do what you want, just leave the children out of it."
Agreed
That's actually a great way to put it.
@Mondlichts Humans are animals tho? No more humans then?
Good point, thanks Kars
This can also be taken in multiple different ways, unfortunately.
While I completely agree with everything you say here, I think another thing to note is the homogenisation of the internet and how it's forced adults and minors into the same space. There was A time where saying "you went to the adult internet so you ran a risk when you went there" held a level of water. That was how I was always taught growing up. Like there was the child internet with sites like club penguin and then the adult internet with stuff like Facebook or twitter. Children still used those sites but the culture around it was that it was fundamentally a risky thing to do. Like watching a r rated movie. Kids still did it but you go in with that mindset that "hey this might not be suitable for me" and even more importantly there was A place to retreat to if it got too much. I'm not saying that was ideal but now with the internet becoming a handful of monopolies, everyone is in the same space. Adults curating adult content with the expectation of being among peers then get their content recommended to children who aren't ready or comfortable to see that kind of content. Its like having a restaurant that used to serve fruit juice and wine so people could choose now just pouring both into the same vat and giving the combination it out to everyone. Kids are getting drunk when they expect to be getting fruit juice and adults are frustrated that their wine is having to be watered down. Or a video store just putting all their disks into a big pile and handing them out randomly. Kids are getting a splatter fest and adults are getting teletubbies.
Truthfully this is why I actually really heavily support ao3 because of its robust tagging. It clearly labels what you're getting so you can avoid anything you aren't interested in. I've still absolutely seen some buck wild shit on there I haven't liked but I can be most of the time be reasonably certain if I'm getting a dead dove or not. The last thing I want is a site where problematic stuff isn't labeled for fear of being removed
Yes to all of this. Kids and adults being made to share the same space because kids’ spaces are dying is an important thing to keep in mind imo. Kids really don’t have a safe place to go at this point. I feel like the debate is washed as just “puriteen” or “kids being annoying” when really they have nowhere else left. Some of the kids’ opinions and actions still suck, and they shouldn’t be excused for it. But idk it’s very sad. I wish there was still a kids table they could sit down at.
also like, i usually see kids virtual worlds brought up in this conversation like club penguin, etc., and the idea that they're dead/dying. imo they're not really dead, roblox just monopolized the kids virtual world scene. and roblox fucking sucks at keeping kids safe, i've literally walked into roblox games/places/experiences/whatever seeing ERP in public. and it's incredibly horrifying when you see two of those blocky avatars in a corner going at it and noticing that one types with little grammar and 3rd grader vocabulary and that the other clearly has written a professional email before. all this and roblox has just introduced 17+ content including dating
I'd never really thought about this but it's so goddamn true. It's this terrible situation where the internet is such a massive part of our lives that basically any kid is gonna want to use it, but there's nowhere their parents can point them that's *for* them anymore. I honestly think this being the case has a chance to bring forth a resurgence in parents making their kids spend more time outside as people who were thrust into the internet thunderdome as wee lads start becoming parents
Yep and yep. I agree with all of this. I feel this is one of the main reasons behind many of the frustrations we see in this video.
yeah i really wish there were spaces only for adults besides corn websites
"an author's personal experiences are none of our business". holy crap yes. creators don't need to trot out their traumas to "prove" that they have the right to write various types of content.
I feel like this happens a lot in the YA-adjacent side of "book twitter" and adjacent book social media, like Becky Albertelli feeling like she was pressured into coming out because of all the comments (some decent criticism, like pointing out some ignorant comments about wlw in Simon VS, but some just vitriolic) about people assuming she was straight and getting mad at her for writing LGBTQ books. Or, on a similar note, Leigh Bardugo having to "justify" there being SA (maybe CSA? I have yet to read it so this is second-hand) in Ninth House by talking about her own experiences since a lot of people saw the content warnings and jumped right to "this must be for shock value!!!" and were being pretty awful to her about it.
I really really don't like this trend of "you need to show all possible credentials to write about X, Y, and Z content!" and as a writer myself, it makes me very uncomfortable. The idea that I "owe" a potential reader knowledge of some of my worst experiences to "justify" writing a character who struggles with depression or panic attacks is not an idea that I like, same with having to out myself to "be allowed" to write LGBTQ characters when doing so could put me at risk.
Anyways TL;DR I agree with you and also I hope that this way of thinking is on the way out.
@@evies.1018 oh man, it's one thing to write dark and heavy matters with careless abandon but one should be allowed to write about the same matters with, you know, proper research and care taken. Demanding that one must have the first-hand experience to write the subject matter is just going to limit a lot of literature out there tbh (and also, well, no way am I, an actually autistic individual, going to write stories that only involves how I perceive the world. It gets boring after a while, after all.).
@@crowdemon_archives I agree! Why would I want to write every book with a character who has the same identities as me every time? It’d just get repetitive after awhile. Plus I like to write to explore other perspectives, I don’t want to only write about things I’ve gone through, especially since it can be really draining. Sure, some of my favorite characters in my writing are similar to me, but some of them are nothing like me and that’s why I like writing them: they let me be someone else for a while.
there was a short period of time where people were weirdly obsessed with trying to prove that a game dev i followed was a cis woman who was just fetishizing gay people by putting them in their game despite the fact that they had talked multiple times about being gay and nonbinary and was generally a very private person anyway. as far as i can tell, the people accusing them were doing it solely to have a “morally correct” reason to not like their game.
it was.... weird.
@@nothankyou4752 I hate the trend of people feeling like they have to moralize their likes and dislikes. Some people really just don't get that you can dislike a thing without it being secretly the worst, most problematic thing ever.
My favorite internet moment is when I read a DNI list that included “Paw Patrol”. I printed it and “DNI IF YOU INTERACT WITH THE PAW PATROL FANDOM” is on my dorm room door.
That's amazing omg
"Fat or thin,
short or tall,
A pig is a pig no matter how small"
Feel free to take that one out of context because hot damn do my drunken grandma's quotes about cops really pop when you're taking about paw patrol. 👍🏼
My guess is that Paw Patrol is a problem because it's making cops look cute and cuddly to kids rather than being the vicious killers they actually are, and my response is "k."
@@browncoat697 it’s a kids show. Chase isn’t even the fan favorite, everyone knows Everest is the best one, that’s why she literally got promoted to main character
@@browncoat697 Yeah lol, that's more or less the argument I've heard, and it's a legit criticism. But god, if this take isn't hilarious.
It creates such a funny picture of the chain of logic in these people's heads-
Policing systems are fundamentally broken because they create an antagonistic relationship between the community and those in power -> these systems are nevertheless glorified in the media, in large part because police target minorities -> media that misleads people about the nature of the police helps perpetuate the system -> kids' media sanitizes policing too -> Paw Patrol makes police look cute and friendly -> therefore, if a tired caretaker absentmindedly allows a child to watch an episode of Dog Rescue Cartoon, they are at best indifferent to police brutality and at worst supportive of it, and should not be spoken to.
Ironically, this video has once been uncomfortable to consume for me. Now that the grim fandom memories have faded, I happily watched it. Thank you Sarah for making it
Ive had the exact same experience. this came out around the time i started using tumblr, got told horrendous stuff by “proshippers” and so this video has me very very scared, but now im able to consume it easier.
@@no1legobatmanfan really? 👀 I'm happy we both made it through... drama will (sadly) not cease to exist but maybe we can heal :)
(back in 2021, i was in one extremely niche community, covid was in its full force and to me they were most of my contact with the world. it had its own frictions, but one day a group of very puritanical "antis" came along and shit hit the fan... turning one friend against another while catching everyone else in the crossfire *sigh*)
Honestly same. Staying away from shitheads has really given me more clarity
the pro/anti debate perpetuates black and white thinking so much
Never has the title to a video essay filled me with such terror and excitement at the same time.
I feel this way about a lot of Sarah’s video
Honestly
yeeeessss my first reaction was "oh gawd"
I get the feeling.
Oh hey same hat. Same terrified and excited hat.
"Sarah Z poisoned our water supply, burned our crops, and delivered a plague upon our houses!" "She did?"
"No, but are we just gonna wait around until she does!?"
This is what twitter people sound like
“Let’s push something over!”
sarah z sold me subpar copper
she sounds powerful, she should run to be elected an MP
It sounds like the actuality is nearly this, but they just lie and say "yes" instead.
this is mccarthyism
Pro-ship and anti-ship are just such.. chronically online terms. Just do what you want and block what you don’t want to see.
Edit because I wasn’t expecting this comment to blow up and I realized I worded it poorly. There is more nuance to this, I am aware, I watched the same video you did. Things that are _actually illegal_ or cause serious real world harm shouldn’t be platformed, I’m not arguing with this. In turn, I’m not a big fan of censorship, even in little things like fanfiction archives, because it’s a slippery slope to some worse stuff, and fanfic archives are gonna be pretty interesting to some future historians.
I’m just saying that - as the video states - separating “anti” and “pro” into binary terms doesn’t really help. Either you’re in support of literally illegal things, or you don’t want anything problematic in media. That’s… stupid. I’ve seen both sides of the argument a lot - comes with the territory when existing in MCYT fandoms - and I tend to say that the romanticization of abuse, the positive portrayal of bigotry, literal illegal things, etc, that’s fucked, that shouldn’t be platformed. However, for example, shipping that Hannibal ship - or the like - isn’t like a crime, mate, it isn’t going to hurt anyone, it’s just these guys’ fucked up relationship.
What is the romanticization of abuse, though? God, I don’t know. That’s why I’m not the one writing the internet laws, that’s why I’m the one who didn’t _word this comment right_ and got a comment about it and am now fixing it to make it clearer (hi Crunchy Leaf /nm). Is Hannigram the romanticization of abuse? Maybe, they seem to have a fucked up relationship. Maybe it’s nuanced. Maybe whether something is “problematic” should be judged on a case by case basis, you know, barring stuff that’s _actually illegal._
In conclusion, I don’t know what I’m talking about, not really, I’m just a random person who’s talking about discourse they have really tried to stay out of because being cancelled/called out sounds _really stressful,_ but, I’ll rephrase my original comment, to make my points more clear - points I was trying and failing to make when I first wrote this comment all these months ago:
Pro-ship and anti-ship are such chronically online terms. Just do what you want, barring literally illegal stuff, and judge things on a case by case basis, rather than defining your whole personality around and internet discourse. Also block what you don’t want to see, and report stuff that is against the TOS or the social media you’re using and/or the literal law, because being platformed is not a right.
Have a nice life, and sorry for the confusion. Also, idk, thanks for all the likes and comments? Some of them were critical, but you weren’t antagonistic about it which my little brain very much appreciates.
I've seen a few pro shippers say if you don't like certain ships/criticize them you're on the level of an anti vaxxer and white supremacist.
People are saying I support real life abuse and I have an Ugly look on life because I ship something from a cartoon (that’s canon and they got a happy ending)
You just described proshippers with that statement though lol
@@viking-astronaut nah antis r way more into it than pros
@@balknbarbie Depends. I see pro shippers call people anti vaxxers if they criticize anything. They're not as pro free speech as you think. Many of them railed against Sarah for this video.
this is why i like that the dead dove do not eat tag exists lol
Ah, the wonderful and traumatizing things one can find under that tag. Truly a thing of beauty.
@@lilacpen8678 ahhhh nothing but the best
@@lilacpen8678 my favorite
I despise some people’s use of “problematic” because they mean either a piece of media has a single bigoted character or that a piece of media is encouraging and praising an ideology based in eugenics.
Yeah, it's not meaningless as a term but it is so broad that without clarification it doesn't tell you anything meaningful
"Problematic" is a word with all the precision of dropping one gross of balloons filled with paint off the top of the Empire State Building.
The word "problematic" and "toxic" have lost their meaning a long time ago. Right now it it just begs to be laughed at and not taken seriously.
It’s somehow taken on the meaning of “nothing, but people get mad out of it” AND “it’s literally evil, but I don’t want to be impolite”
It's some Schrödinger's Cat shit. It means both of these things simultaneously in quantum superposition.
"kylo and zuko aren't that similar"
"YOU ARE HARASSING YOUNG GIRLS, VERY DISAPPOINTING"
One is well consistent written
@@marocat4749 and the other is Kylo Ren
Thank you Kanye, very disappointing
@@pancakes8670 This is even funnier to me in reply to a "well-written character" given that somehow Kylo Ren is still overall the best written character in Disney's utterly blundered _Star Wars_ movies just because it's such a *low* bar. It also helped by Adam Driver being a good actor and basically no one else really getting character development over three entire movies.
@@MusicoftheDamned Disagree, you can clearly see the development of Rei starting off as a normal Mary Sue, then at the end of the trilogy becomes the biggest Mary Sue ever
That's development
My favorite part of this video is every time Sarah refers to a character by their name, their content (“Rey Star Wars”). It’s like when you have a guy’s name in your phone saved as “Josh Hinge”
Or when rhys from borderlands didn’t have a last name so he’s just Rhys (borderlands) even tho he has a last name now
Sans Undertale in the Tumblr sexyman poll
sans undertale
Also reminds me a bit of how Americans say town names;
Denver, Texas or something like that.
I like it, it makes it sound like all these francises are different countries the characters live in.
Tfw the internet is reinventing last names (like how "smith" came from... being blacksmiths. Some family of guys one day was known as Joe who made my knife, Joe the blacksmith, and then Joe smith.
I really don't like Lore Olympus. I think it mishandles its themes around sexual assault, toxic relationships, etc and didn't give enough content warnings before delving into those things. At least in the format I tried reading it.
So I just stopped reading it. I moved on with my life to things I enjoy instead of fixating on a piece of media I didn't think was the best. What a concept lol
I love naming everyone with the franchise they’re from as their last name
“Sans Undertale”
“Rey Star-Wars”
“Zagreus Hadesgame”
A bit more of a niche example but I see variations of “Rita Penumbrapodcast” or “Rita [Redacted]”
Best way to do it
Jesus Bible and the slightly rocky relationship he has with his well-meaning but creepy estranged older brother Lucifer Bible
Harry Harry Potter
Minecraft Steve
Wait…
As a person who isn't engaged in fan culture, watching this is like watching the political debates of aliens.
same. I was blown away by every new twist and turn, like completely baffled
That’s such a great way to describe it! Hahaha
Expect one side of these debate is trying to ruin irl life of the other, a lot of times they doxx and tell the families of the target what they're into, and ruined their job and life.
Me with ‘beauty’ youtuber drama:
That’s really all you need to know. That’s exactly what fandom discourse is!
I'm so tired of proshippers and antis expecting everyone to take one of those two sides when the first one is "if you criticize any media for any reason, you are literally pro censorship" and the second one is "if you write a story where someone gets murdered, you literally support murder." Like idk both sides look terrible and I don't want to get too closely involved with either. I'm anti-all of this shit and pro-taking a nap.
I just hate that survivors of csa and csem like myself get used as a gotcha for both sides
Reminds me of when people use legality to denote either a morality or a naturalness, I have my views and there are those who have been molested who would support, as well as those who wouldn't. The implication that these people are 'on the right side' or are just used as fodder is toxic in discussion as it boils complexities of the human experience to a card with the words "they are on my side" and it's just dumb to see on either side.
yeah, and is very sorry this shit happens.
“I hate fandom”
“SO YOURE SAYING YOU SUPPORT CHILD MURDER??”
👁👄👁
Wait what
Evil eye.
Twitter is the secret 8th circle of hell
QAnon for fandoms
This really does not surprise me
“How did we get here?”
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."
-The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Still think it’s a bad move tbh
Hitchhiker's guide is so iconic
Wait so that wasn’t from Good Omens?
@Moira O'Deorain
I don't think so, but I've often seen it attributed to Terry Pratchett so maybe that's where the confusion comes from
@@phoenixfritzinger9185 Nope, it's from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but it does sound like something that would be from Good Omens. They're both probably irredeemable somehow.
Having watched this I have come to one simple conclusion: Plato was right about expelling the poets.
Plato: People shouldn’t be exposed art until they’ve developed a capacity for critical thinking.
Myself: That is absurd and unreasonable.
Antis: *Screaming about how watching Steven Universe is genocide apologia*
Proships: *Screaming about how if you criticize any art ever you’re a fascists*
Myself: Never mind you were right, some people just shouldn’t be exposed to art until they’ve developed critical thinking skills
I think this is applicable to the whole “fiction doesn’t/does affect reality” stuff. Because so long as you are able to have critical thinking skills and be critical about the media you consume fiction doesn’t affect your reality. But it can be difficult borderlining on impossible to expect a huge mass of people to have the same critical thinking skills (which is often acquired by a mixture of experience and upbringing) so then fiction does affect reality.
It’s so, in Sara’s word, wild that both sides refuse to acknowledge any sort of nuance and insists that you are either A or B which is…not how things ever worked.
@Raiden Kunikuzushi Plato’s Republic is where this idea comes from:
Mind you The Republic is rather like the Bible where if you read it and take it at the surface level interpretation Plato appears reactionary.
It’s important to recognize that when Plato criticizes Democracy through the character of Socrates he is criticizing democracy as it existed in Ancient Athens which was far from the platonic ideal of democracy as it were. Athenian Democracy was rife with corruption and lacked a written legal code and dominated by wealthy interests.
In Plato’s Seventh Letter Plato actually defends the Democracy established in the Revolution against the 30 Tyrants. Stating that while there were some excesses the new Democracy was restrained in it’s pursuit of vengeance and was more good than bad. A remarkably charitable description of the government that put Socrates to death.
And in the Republic itself Socrates state that democracy is deeply flawed Democracy is the only of his four types of Government (Timarchy, Oligarchy, Demicracy, and Tyranny) that allows for the pursuit of philosophy.
Edit: Additionally Plato was speaking more broadly than just simple fiction. Poets weren’t just simple authors and playwrights; poets were authors, propagandists, historians, and theologians all rolled into one. Poets directly influenced how people thought of the gods, history, and morality in ways modern Authors could only dream of. Alcibiades got Athens to go to war against Syracuse by appealing to the poetic images of Greek Heroes. Imagine if in 2003 George Bush went before Congress and said we should invade Iraq because we’ll be just like Harry Potter and Congress responded by unanimously voting to declare war on Iraq: that was what Athens was like in the time period the Republic is set.
@@blixer8384 Propagandists, Shippers. What's the difference??
@@thainganpham9705 Better yet, utilising critical thought when consuming art allows you to consciously understand what the art is trying to say to you. In this way, you can choose whether to reject or embrace the art for what it truly is, without having it completely rule over you in a manner that you don’t recognise or comprehend.
It also allows you to avoid tying up too much of your personal identity or emotions to a particular piece of media, meaning you can also avoid being a ‘worst bird-app user’.
This is why most decent English/Lit teachers will automatically give you a higher grade if you just write about something vastly different from your classmates. You have to do a book report on Of Mice and Men? I promise your teacher doesn't want to read you saying the same bs about Lenny that literally everyone else in your class is saying. Write about Candy, and how he's a statement on how older folks have 'no place' in impoverished society and how he feels unwanted in spite of everything he has done (and continues to do) and how supportive he is of their community as a whole.
Most folks don't think critically in a healthy way though and make life harder for themselves and those around them as a result.
Every time I think "hmm, I should get back on twitter for x reason" I'm reminded of how insanely toxic and damaging the site can be at times. Holy shit Sarah, I'm so sorry that all of this happened to you.
The only good things Elon Musk has ever done are fund SpaceX and kill Twitter
my favorite thing ever is when someone casually mentions a 'cancelled' creator, and when someone comments "wait, what did they do?" the replies are filled with the most heinous list of lies and twitter broken telephone rubbish.
My favorite is when the person is still just there making money because extremely online nerds don't really affect anyone's lives.
The list is always like. Racism, lesbophobia, child exploitation, jaywalking, being friends with *insert other problematic person*
“Contrapoints is literally a TERF”
that one’s my favorite
because… how?
@@sycoraxrock she also HATES nonbinary people, after making a whole video on the validity of nb people
@@overgrownkudzu Oh yes. Because “I don’t personally understand but you’re still valid and I’d like to actually understand rather than just parroting what i’m ‘supposed’ to say” aaaactually means “pronouns in bio lol”
The whole "if this middle schooler murdered someone, would it be ok to dunk on them then?" reminds me of that episode in Community where the AC Repair School finds out who murdered the Vice Dean and are like "Take this man to the infinite labyrinth of eternal ice" and Troy just says "No, take him to the police. He murdered someone."
Streets ahead analogy my friend
It reminded me of that one Tumblr ask where someone said "What if a white child was dying of cancer and their last wish was to say the N word. Would that still be bad?"
@@vanillaseahorse4228 i was about to say I'd like to take a peek inside the mind of a person who likes to come up with hypotheticals like that. but no, i really don't.
@@lucyx3008 As a former "that person," it's not all that bad. Teenagers/young adults spend a lot of their mental energy on finding the edges of what is acceptable and keep a log of taboo subjects in their head, and possibly a ranking of least to most taboo (this is why "I just wanted to get a reaction" or "I did it for the lulz" or whatever Gen Z calls it is a justification, it is a way of teasing out how taboo something is). You then randomly combine two taboo things until you get something that is logically consistent. In the cancer versus racism example, you pit two of the worst things against each other and as a way of teasing out whether more people hate the N-word, or more people feel sympathy for child cancer patients.
At some point, you learn about the trolley problem and switch the hypothetical to something like "the trolley is going to kill hitler, but you can pull the lever to make it kill stalin, what do you do?"
I grew out of it by like mid-20s, most people seem to grow out of it, or the examples become more subtle because instead of trying to find the extrema you start searching for the boundaries of your in-group, or you've settled on your own boundaries and no longer care too much what anyone else's are.
I think irredeemable media lists containing things like Steven universe are funny when things like A Serbian Film exist.
I can’t believe they accused our girl of being a straight woman
This happened with the TJLC video too 😭
Imagine using "straight women" as an insult unironically
@@m00nrac00n I hate being pluralized
It really says a lot too considering how easy it is to fact check that it’s not true.
As a bi woman I felt that pain so hard. Truly the worst insult for us.
"the reading comprehension on this site is piss poor."
"you piss on the poor?"
The combination of social media and fandom have shown that either there aren’t enough therapists in the world, or they need to be way more accessible.
Both are true.
I don’t consider myself proship or anti because, like you, I’m an adult. However, AO3 does absolutely need to get better moderation. I’ve seen R34 of real life minors, and I cannot for the life of me understand why this is acceptable. Even certain websites developed SOLELY for the purpose of hosting R34 material (e.g. Paheal) have rules against this. There’s a lot of weird stuff on Paheal, and who am I to judge, but you still can’t upload NSFW art or edits of real life minors because that’s fucked up
Oh, there was a huge blowup over a newer site that's trying to be a safer AO3 (Fanexus) outright stating they won't ban "minor-attracted people" on a site that allows minors. A very large chunk of the active proship community vocally supported this (though in fairness, some were opposed to the "allowing minors" part). These circles tend to use a lot of "no point in banning since they'll just lie to get in anyway" logic - make of that what you will.
i dont think ao3 LIKES hosting smut about real life minors but since technically a child wasn't harmed in the process it's not illegal to write it and so they have to in accordance with their "we can't go down the route of choosing what to exclude" attitude
@@ilexdiapason this might be random but I RECOGNIZE
UR USER AND PFP FROM AO3 AND I DID A DOUBLE TAKE!! i LOVE ur works ur a rly good writer!!
@@ilexdiapason man that's messed up
The point is, if they start banning R34 of irl minors because people find it unethical, others will start to call for banning all R34 of irl people in general, not just minors. But people have used Real Person Fiction for things like political criticism as well, including 18+ imagery. So banning that would be against freedom of speech, and very exploitable. That would mean no more edgy jokes criticising politicians! And that's a really bad thing.
oh man I am not involved in fandom culture but this explanation makes a lot of bizarre things I've seen go on around my own work make a hell of a lot more sense
omg i wasnt expecting to see tribbs here!
holy shit just seeing your name brought back so many memories. you were one of my favourite animators when i was a warriors obsessed kid :’) taking a look at your work now it’s only gotten even better, keep it up!!
@@anni8 Then you should definitvely check out their animated webserie, My Pride! It's amazing and criminally underrated ;D
mu'meyvam DaladlaH'a'
@@anni8 Aww thank you!!
I cannot imagine ever thinking "people disagreeing with me about fantasizing about same sex fictional characters being in love is exactly and literally the same as gay men being locked in concentration camps, starved then murdered"
The irony is that 70% of people in fandom spaces who argue about queer men arent queer men
Right? It's truly a mind-numbing concept.
@@shellsilvers b-but i like my cutesie uwu gay boys who i definitely dont fetishize or infantilize at all! /s
@@lgbtqiarights
Fetishizing characters is fine tho
@@GabrielCosta-xt1dv … that’s not the point of my comment. i am pointing out how people tend to fetishize gay relationships. also fetishizing fictional or real people sounds weird lol
reading the screenshots of the tweets on this video just overcomes me with a sense of dread over the reminder that this is what we, people who choose to use twitter regularly, expose ourselves to so frequently that we become desensitized to it, when, in fact, It Sucks
I'll never understand why so many people online assume "stating disagreement = an attack".
its bc of perceived clout of the poster and then reacting by doing some misdirected grandstanding
"Accused of being a straight woman" I'm sorry you had to go through this trauma and suffering
The heteros are terrible, though. It's a mean thing to say.
well, this is indirectly claiming she's lying about being part of a marginalised group which if you know anything about twitter you will understand is a really, really bad thing to be accused of
Yikes I really hope you're joking...
She never said anything about trauma and suffering, she *was* acused, people claimed she was something with mean-spirited intentions, because twitter thinks being straight is a bad thing, claiming someone has done something that you think is wrong is the definition of acusing.
@@3173_Delta while the video may be about a different situation, you have supplied a very similar outcome
@@overgrownkudzu twitter is the new 2012 tumblr
This didn’t make me pro or anti shipping, this just pushed me closer to anti internet
I think it made me somehow even more anti humans.
Yeah, I'll go touch some grass after this
Honestly. Just shut it all down, cancel the whole thing, we're done.
It didn’t do anything for me. It just confirmed what I already know. Pro and anti are just humans who all do shitty stuff sometimes. So yeah.
I just need how-to videos/guides.
What I took away from this is that depiction is not endorsement, but framing can be. A work of fiction can include dark themes without framing it in a positive or negative light. Likewise, you can frame a story to show certain actions as being good or bad.
If you write a story about a killer, that isn't an endorsement of murder. The killer can be a protagonist without being a hero, and both sides can be seen as complex without painting one as "good" or "bad". However, if the killer's behavior is always rewarded, if the killer is shown in a sympathetic light, and if the people opposed to the killer are shown as bad for trying to stop them, etc., that can be considered an endorsement. It's all about the message that the story portrays.
It's the difference between "this is what they did" versus "this is what they should do".
The minor vs adult fan divide seems so manufactured and ridiculous - especially considering that most writers in the fandoms I visit are 14-22 years old so basically we're all really young
it's just different flavors of child
Those "irredeemable media" lists are unbelievable. What a terrifying echo chamber to live in, truly.
It's a very puritanical view of media and life and general if you think about it. Reminds me of those isolated Christian cults where outsiders are all doomed to eternal damnation
In Malaysia, there is a former pop star called Aishah who has now become, scarily enough, an Islamist politician. It’s ridiculously sick that not only did she successfully betray much of her own fanbase, she’s currently a part of an Islamist Malaysian political party which targets not just much of the lower classes, but also a majority of Muslim Malaysians living in peninsular Malaysia’s northern and eastern coasts.
Separate the artist from her work!
It doesn’t help that some of the screenshots shown also contain some SERIOUS red flags such as “DNI if you’re bisexual because pansexuals are ‘more inclusive’.” and other chronically online takes like that
Bullying people by accusing them of being bullies is so trendy these days.
Thank goodness I don't use Twitter...
But seriously, I can't imagine meeting these people in real life. Pro-shippers? Antis? Like, how unhinged are these people that fictional characters non-canonically (in most cases) being together is any sort of issue? I understand both sides, as a writer who enjoys the value of creative freedom but also as a logical human who understands the necessity of boundaries. And both sides sound like they have too much free time on their hands. "Go outside" is a severe understatement.
Its very touch grass... but its also post pandemic and most of us are a bit grass starved, I guess.
I mean here's the thing. Realistically an irl interaction with them is probably gonna be like "hey man how's it going." People just don't behave like they do online when they're talking to a real physical person that they can see in front of them
It sounds like both groups are just people with too much time and not enough purpose in their lives.
I've never seen a more concise summary of the whole drama than this
if they were living through a war they'd be silent bruhhhh
That statement about She-Ra and why that would be problematic just kinda hurt my soul. I grew up in group homes myself and no, no those are not my siblings. Growing up together doesn't mean you're friggin related.
I was watching this and thinking If those people have never seen childhood friends get together. It's a pretty common media trope and one that makes me tired but you can indeed know someone since you were toddler and then 15 years later Fall in Love with them. This is probably how a lot of our grandparents dated at a time when you stayed in your community, didnt have social Media and had a quite tight knit social circle. Dating your Kindergarten friend = incest is Just.... My brain hurts
I literally am disgusted by people who say that She-Ra is problematic because it had friends-enemies-lovers and because they were childhood best friends.
if one of the characters were a male, this would never be seen as "problematic", it would be seen as an expression of the "childhood best friend" trope.
per the person who seems to be responding to me without responding to me, i say that what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Being groomed is a different thing from being related. The grooming of children is what people actually have a problem with. Being related without grooming is entirely exclusive from sex, so that's a non-problem self-evident from the lack of that sexual relationship.
The problem with growing together is when it isn't shown to include that growth and leads directly to a sexual outcome of growth anyway. That IS what happens to groomed children taught that this is normal. By shows like She-ra I might add. This is the DIFFERENCE between fiction and reality, if somebody remains confused about it. Those who think it's the same as "the childhood friends" trope are just exposing themselves as people who CAN'T TELL if a childhood friend is starting to finish their sexual development, but would call it a non-factor and get into it anyway. For those people we need an egg timer and to tell them no snu-snu until the bell rings.
@@sboinkthelegday3892 i'm really confused by what you're trying to say here. is this still related to she-ra??
enemies to lovers ship, but its pros and antis teaming up against this video and falling in love in the process.
Ohhh shit!!
*write a fic*
So you're a pro-shipper then?? /jk
A pro antis.
oh my god that'd be amazing
The funny thing is none of this shit matters once you turn off the screen
That's not how the world works anymore. Online harassment is harassment.
Did you skip the part where they clearly stated that’s not how online harassment works
@@hhh1234h I don't really care it's just stupid people making a big deal out of shit that don't matter in the real world and hurting eachother and themselves over it
Watching this video after going down the disturbing movies iceberg with Nyx Fears-there's something precious about a person finding Steven Universe irredeemable when Slaughtered Vomit Dolls exists 😂😂😂
Glad to see another Nyx Fears watcher 🙌
Okay, I'm 40 minutes in and beginning to realize that Twitter is the worst hellsite on earth. That people get THIS wound up over things that aren't even being said...now I remember why I scaled back my social media presence.
Tumblr only calls itself a hellsite because nobody wants to touch it. Twitter is the actual hellsite because everyone has something to contribute, which actually makes it hell.
Yes Twitter is a hellsite and we need to remind everyone every chance we get
I don’t remember the last time anything actually good ever happened on Twitter. It just seems like 90% unfiltered, oft reactionary donkey poop that for some reason gets treated very very seriously, both on and off the platform.
Now imagine how bad twitter would be if it were anonymous and ban evasion was super easy....
Oh wait, I know a site like that
People at my school: "Hey, you gotta be active on social media like Twitter to get recruited!"
Me, looking at twitter: "If that's what it takes I think want to be unemployed."
Seeing all these tweets as examples of pros vs antis makes me realise we may have left tumblr but tumblr never left us
Poetry.
so true...
the people who left tumblr after the nsfw ban seemed to have migrated to twitter, so that’s probably an explanation
Lmao, there's even another Bone Stealing Witch esque controversy happening on Tiktok. But in all seriousness, I don't think any social media site these days isn't at least kinda similar to 2012-2013 tumblr, except for, ironically, Tumblr itself.
Let's blame Tumblr anyway for taking so long to add tag blacklisting.
im sure youre aware of the discourse this video kicked off initially an tumblr but in the time since i feel like the message has sunk in a bit more, idk if its just me but it feels like the vibe of "are you pro or anti" "im an adult" is much more common now which makes conversations 1000x more tolerable. ive been noticing an increase in casual sourcing ever since hbombs plagiarism video and i feel like this one mightve had a similar effect, albeit far more subtle. either way it finally gave /me/ the right words for my position when i had spent months feeling weird about thinking it was a stupid argument to be having in the first place and was a key part of helping me learn how to engage with discourse in general in a healthy way, by knowing when to disengage and stand your ground rather than fall into the trap of "centrism 100% bad always, nuance is dead you have to be either 100% this side or 100% that side" trying to twist the things you actually believe into one box or the other. so even if it didnt effect internet culture as a whole it definitely did effect me and i think your stance is very well thought out:3
Yeah I think generally I used to see a lot of posts of a mutual and their circle fighting with proshippers and thats slowed down a whole lot. Also Sarah saying that you should just specifically say *what* you don't want to see instead of using discourse labels was great advice for me and now I just do that on whatever platforms I'm on.
I don't really see "DNI [ship discorse side] OR NEUTRAL" anymore either which is also a relief like thats just dumb to me LOLLL
God I cant believe that people cant wrap their silly little head's around the fact that "Media shouldn't be dictated by things that may make people uncomfortable" and "sometimes media can be criticised for its themes that affect morals and politics" are phrases than can coexist.
As hbomberguy said a couple of years ago: "when someone stops defending their position to defend their right to have a position, something wrong happened"
Based
I used to think that "proshipper" meant "professional shipper" and I just imagined guys like... tweeting about how they shipped something and then getting money for it?
That would be the good timeline, but we’re not living in that unfortunately
working for the fandom industrial complex
I legit thought it's just liking a ship and anti means not liking a ship and it varies depending on what you like. Yours is way funnier tho.
Now that sounds like something I'd be good at
OP sold her soul to corporate shipping, disgusting! /s
You would think the stereotype of shippers and anti-shippers would be that shippers are teenaged and anti-shippers are "out of touch" adults. Kinda weird how it's flipped from what one would expect.
It's sad that Millennials might be the most progressive sex-positive generation we see in a while. We have the anti-lgbt puritans before us (the boomers), and the sex-negative puritans coming after us (the zoomers). Oh well, maybe the zoomers will grow out of it.
@@APaleDot I don't think I'd call it sad, but sure.
Lol it's the opposite. Basically such things make kids uncomfortable but adults like "spicier" fiction as they grow older because they start to find vanilla fiction boring...and there's really nothing more to it than that.
@@SukiNoKoe to be fair, i thought the same thing when i first watched this. maybe because i'm a gen z with a healthy relationship with sex/sexuality and have irl and online friends who share that. i recognised early on that there's nothing forcing me to consume media that makes me uncomfortable.
i'm not a tiktok gen z, by which i mean the more chronically online, must seek out things i hate to be mad at it, gatekeeping over "correct" fandom behaviours kind of gen z. i'm so used to the discourse being "young people are too liberal these days" that hearing adults in their 30s referring to people as "puriteens" feels like i've been ejected to an alternate reality.
@@alexander_markovski Wish there were more gen z people like you :( you sound very cool
What I've learned from binging this channel for the past few days :
1. Social media is fucking wild sometimes
2. You're good at your job because I end up so enthralled that I end up watching for an hour straight without realizing
I think a thing that a lot of people don't realize (especially younger people) is that it's ok to enjoy things with problematic aspects. You can be critical of a piece of media and not agree with certain parts of it and still deeply enjoy it. Liking things with problems doesn't make you a bad person.
There is also no such thing as unproblematic media. If someone can use the Dominio's Pizza mascot as a justification to shoot people...well anyone can use anything to do bad things...and people should learn this.
@@becuzMDsaidineededpersonality i think that, with pure fiction, it's nigh impossible for me to justify labeling any work as "problematic" in this sense because the problem is the consumer in virtually every case rather than the work itself. To claim otherwise is to deny humans of their agency and personal responsibility.
every human has flaws and so every piece of media will have flaws. all of us have grown up in a world which gives us some sort of inherent bias about something, and in some situations it's really difficult to toe the line between tropes. like for example the "perfect, pure, gay character who can do no wrong" trope is partly a result of people trying to avoid the "queer villain" trope, and any queer or even queer-coded character could be argued to fall into either trope if they're complex. you're never gonna find a perfect piece of media anyway, so why not just enjoy stuff? as long as ur aware of the problematic aspects there's no reason you can't consume it (within reason ofc)
@@toothfairy10133 Very true. I went to a training at my work recently talking about this because no one can know everything about every people group on the earth and being willing to listen is the most important but it's not something we should tear others apart for because no one learns or gets better that way.
@@tigerfestivals5137 Exactly. Very good points.
the section of people on twitter twisting sarah's words & getting mad at her reminds me of that one tweet: “95% of twitter is people making up a person and then getting mad at them"
Pretty bold of you to take that problematic stance, since you punt cats into space. How dare you
@@anjetto1 I, a cat, wish to go back to space, therefore space punting is a-ok.
You can do this for a lot of things on the Internet. For example, "95% of the commentary community is making up a person and getting mad at them", or, "95% of SJW Owned videos is making up a person and getting mad at them"
Something being online for 20 years now has taught me is this:
-Learn to pick your battles
-Trust but verify
-Nuance is key
Also the best way to win the angry discourse game is not playing it, I know it's easier said than done, but it makes for a really good exercise in keeping our emotions in check, because that's the main fuel of a lot of that toxicity, intentionally pushing your emotional buttons so everyone engages in an endless flame war, all while being convinced you're fighting a good cause.
It's kinda sad a lot of this messed up stuff comes from teenagers, or young adults who already spent a good part of their teens facing the internet completely unprepared and unchecked, because they managed to make this not just their personality, but also their entire existence and validation as people depends on this unhealthy stuff.
That whole tweet about "thats a whole different sentence" is the realest tweet ever posted
I think these people took the “Lindsay Ellis is a menace to my child” pins too seriously
I am personally deeply upset when dogs die in fiction. I don't feel any particular need to blame fiction when it surprises me with that.
I’m convinced Micheal Morpurgo hates dogs
JoJo, omg JoJo. I wished they'd stop it ... But I still watch it, transfixed
I feel the same way about cats dying in fiction, going out of my way to avoid it when possible, and also not blaming the creators of media I consume when it happens in the story.
Not every story written is going to be for me! That's the point of having MANY STORIES to consume!
@@freelanceangel8962 same, I haven't watch John Wick because of this, but I get the creators choice and don't blame who enjoy the revenge flick
@@freelanceangel8962 Don't watch The Order then. Just. ... Don't.
That's kinda strange because being totally allergic to fandom culture and not knowing much about it, I always thought that pro-shipper would be teenagers and antis would be adults. That's new thing for me.
This is because adults get bored of vanilla stuff. xD
@@SukiNoKoe "vanilla stuff" kinda weird way to phrase it
@@Bremblemax That's what it's known as though lol what would you prefer?
@@Bremblemax agreed, kinda downplays some of the stuff imo
I hope this doesn't sound callous, but like... let's say someone did die because of fandom discourse. That still doesn't give anyone the excuse to use that person's death as a weapon in yet another fandom discourse.
Let's take the dumb "Video games cause violence" mindset. We know that that's not true, right? However, there ARE people out there who play video games and are violent and people suffer because of that. But even in those cases, we generally agree that it wasn't the video games that are the problem and there has to be a deeper issue. Why can't we apply it to everything else?
Bullying, murder, suicide, harassment, bigotry, all these horrible things... they would still exist if fiction/fandoms didn't exist. They always did. And we should absolutely work towards trying to be better and not be jerks to each other. But if someone IS a jerk and someone DOES get hurt, we shouldn't care what cartoons these people watch. We should care because something bad happened, that an innocent person got hurt.
tl;dr If I had to go to the hospital because I was attacked by a fan of Fairy Princess Sparkletina's Magic Horse Adventure, it REALLY wouldn't help me if people started accusing everyone who likes Fairy Princess Sparkletina's Magic Horse Adventure of murder.