It's hard to talk about gender in the rhe modern world but there is massive issues with the Good For Age system. The difference between men and women at world record level is 9 minutes there or thereabout. The difference between men and women at London GFA is for my age group 45 minutes. That makes a GFA place achievable for any keen female runner who trains with a club etc. The time last year for men at my age cat was sub 3. We were also emailed saying they will take 5 minutes off that to limit numbers, and in the same emails stated that as its first come, first served, so you need to be 10 minutes inside that time to be sure to get in. So that's 2:45 for men. Essentially, this means you need to be sub elite as a man to qualify. That time is almost a championship entry time. I train with lots of women and they are incredible, so fast and you wouldn't have any thoughts that women are not as fast or faster than men in many situations. There certainly is not 45 minutes between us. In fact, I would struggle to match the marathon times of the serious women at our club. Huge respect for them. Tye problem is that those runnibg the even want an equal ratio of women and men, which is of course commendable in this more balanced world. However that doesn't reflect the ratio of males to female at the point of application to GFA places which is more like 4:1. So the guys get impossible times and the women get times opened up to balance. This is simply positive discrimination and devalues the womens truly amazing achievements in qualifying. Even my female runner friends think it's unfair for guys. If you look at other marathon qualifying times, they are much fairer and closer. Surely there must be a better system like using run britian rankings handicap to level things up and allow more chance for amature runners to qualify. The mens time should be more like 3:15 and the women's 3:30. That wouldn't stop any of my female serious runner friends still getting their GFA place.
Yes, Dawn believes the times are easier for women to qualify. Her GFA time is 4 hrs 10 mins, and she is 35 minutes inside that. You don't get many men 35 mins inside their GFA times. She believes times have always been slightly softer for women. Women's marathon times are getting faster and faster, so maybe the GFA times for women are due a review...
I agree with this… your distribution of numbers seem fair. Dawn is right in the fact that the UKA clubs are the bread and butter of the running scene in the UK… sadly though it’s become a business rather than a race… money is at the forefront rather than runners
Yes we recall your Vlog from last year and how you came across underwhelmed by the whole thing. Too many runners, hard to spectate and really become a big jamboree and less of a running vibe than when I was fortunate enough to qualify.
@ it wasn’t the vibe I got from 2022, it drastically changed in the space of 2 years… and I feel it’ll only get worse if it keeps going on the way its going…
They should make you enter payment card details when applying for ballot. That would put most non runners off. Also they allow GFA entrants until end of Feb to pay. They should have to pay within 2 weeks of being accepted and if they don’t their place should be given to the next fastest runner in a reserve list.
I agree with your points. I cringe every year I see the BBC presenters encouraging people to apply as you know it will means thousands more non runners applying who will rock up with minimal or no training, reducing the chance of people who run week in week out getting a place. They won’t change anything though. I think LM management has a similar, “we know best, if you don’t like it …. “ attitude to parkrun leadership. 😬 One idea I have seen before is for someone who gets a place via the ballot, to then be excluded from ballot entry for next “x” amount of years to give others a chance
Yes the similarities with parkrun had occurred to us. Something built off the backs of the running community being increasingly drawn away from them for other agendas. Yes fair point on the ballot, although with a 1 in 50 chance of getting in you'd have a long wait until your next go :)
I agree with you guys and something needs to change , one thing I think is if you have run it the previous year then you shouldn’t be allowed to run it the next year to give others a chance to get a place
Good video so thank you both. I have applied for London via the ballot unsuccessfully but rather than being down I run the Shakespeare marathon in Stratford upon Avon on the same day as London, but so did lots of club runners who didn’t get into London either. I agree running clubs should be more influence on places but I can’t see it changing sadly.
I think GFA should only be once every two or 3 years. That would spread the good runners throughout other marathons, raising the standard. Not sure it is right that some people (myself included if I had the desire) could have 25+ consecutive London marathons, whilst slightly lesser ability club mates may never get in. Competing club athletes pay for athletic associations and it is ridiculous that clubs get 1 or 2 places.
Some great points. With anything that gets mad popular inevitably always has to turn super commercial and thus will always cater towards this. For me I've stopped caring about running London if I'm honest. I'll keep entering the ballot for laughs but I really don't care if I get in. For me theres plenty of marathons especially in Europe I would like to try Lisboa, Porto, Seville, Rotterdam and soon to do Valencia. I ran the Madrid Marathon and found the city beautiful and weather awesome, the exhibition not stressful at all. London seems to be the opposite in my mind and probably would cost a lot more for the weekend too!
There's certainly plenty of variety around. I guess for many, London is like getting into Boston, New York, etc. But can see the attraction of other marathons.
It seems the actual GFA cut off for M40s was 3:23 inside the guideline of 3:00:00 so 2:56:37 or better. That said 825 UK M40s have done that 2:56:37 this year. Roughly similar depth for an M40 to say 36:30 10K. So certainly "good" running but I would not say it is exceptional.
Yes in that regard there is no change in the GFA criteria. In fact here's a suggestion. Allocate the GFA places based on Wava scores. Say you need 80% age grading to apply and take the top 3000 for both genders. Cat amongst the pigeons!
@ question of which WAVA scores - the ones parkrun use are well out of date. When I checked the male & female same age group standards gave roughly equal numbers which is the point. On any age grading likely to not get equal number of each gender.
I agree with a lot of what you and Dawn have said. I think more opportunities ought to be given to committed runners to take part. But for London Marathon the priorities are different, not just for commercial reasons (important as they are) but also for them to maintain their “licence to operate”.. which comes down to the politics of closing down a major city and placing a temporary inconvenience on residents and visitors. Without mass open participation and supporting “good causes” the race would not be given its permission to take place. It would lack local support. That’s the world we live in. I’d love it to be more focussed on proper runners but that’s not going to happen. I’ve managed to secure my good for age, so I’m going to give this one my best shot and, if I get my sub 2:40 target time, probably retire from competitive marathon running.
Fantastic comment and an angle we hadn't considered (being from oop north). Yes the co-operation it must take from the London public and wider civic authorities. We shall follow your journey to that Sub 2:40 with keenness.
Re the championships, move it to Manchester, Andy and co would love to host the championships and it's not a bad course. Re London, I ran it last year so since I have experienced it , I shall not go for it again better to leave it to those who have not ran it before (every little counts). Love your suggestions turning it more like Boston .. it also allows more focus on other great UK / Ireland marathons for people to enjoy if they choose too (and save a bob or two in the process)
I’m 66 now and must have applied over 20 times and have never been successful. I don’t however begrudge anyone who is a ‘real’ runner as in a club member or who has a ‘good for age’ time getting a place. What I do find frustrating is all the people who don’t train and have no intention of even trying to run the marathon. I’m not talking about runners who take a walking break occasionally. But almost anyone can walk 26 miles - the marathon should be a running challenge and it’s ridiculous that 1000s of club runners never have the opportunity despite their dedication to the sport and all that they have given back. Maybe they could devise a points system where you get credit for your activities in the previous 12 months with points accumulated for marathons half marathons 10ks and even Parkruns. Anyway love the videos - Good Arrows! 🎯
That's a real shame and yes your potential for a place has been overlooked by people who just seem to want to tick something off a bucket list, rather than approach it with the dedication it warrants.
Such a great idea to increase club places - we got 4 places 10 years ago, now 2 - even increasing club places from 1500 to 5000 would be a good start, and it would encourage more aspiring London marathoners to join clubs and discover a love for running more widely than just the one headline race - hope someone from LME is watching this as it makes a lot of sense!
As frustrating as it might be for the majority, I quite like the system as it is. One of my main running goals was to qualify GFA for the London Marathon, and the ever decreasing times has provided motivation to better my marathon time. What started as a sub 3 goal around 5 years ago is now looking like 2:50 (and faster) is needed in future. Possibly as you say, the marathon championship could be moved to a less charity focused race, such as Manchester. I did a similar video a couple of years ago and something we've not mentioned is the international places. It's difficult for UK residents to get a place, but must be even harder for international runners without the GFA or championship avenues, it seems the only way is the ballot or with a sports tour/charity place, and for a £225 fee!
How many international places are allocated? We genuinely don't know. I take your point about tighter GFA times raising standards and motivating you in particular to stay ahead of the cut off. Eventually it will be Hunger Games and you'll have to run Sub 2:10 to qualify for the one achievement place on offer alongside 49.999 ballot and charity runners :)
I agree with your points. (i think the ballot should open when the non-runners have forgotten about it but saying that,fair play to anyone who trains up). clubs should be featured more too.
I’ve been lucky to get a GFA place for next year……45=49 age group ran 2:59:10 this year using the club place I was given as you say, we have one place for a sizeable club
@@tworunningbrooms I agree with you, I also wonder how close to capacity London is with 55,000 people running ….is there room to go to 60,000 and create more club runners places ?
Cheers John & Dawn. Great video. The suggestions mentioned are fair but London don't care about what is fair. They love seeing social media posts of disappointed runners as it fuels the hype. Can I raise a couple of points. 1- Dawn is right when she says Championship place should be honoured but even that process is flawed. I know a lass who ran a 1:31 HALF Marathon (outside her qualifying time) having not ever a marathon in her life. She still got a start in the London Championship pen. I find that absolutely ridiculous and unfair. You should not be allowed to qualify for a marathon, by running a half as they’re completely different challenges. 2- Regarding Running club places, I’d like to know your thoughts on this. My twin brother's club have said you can only be considered for London club place ballot if you have volunteered at one of several events at their discretion. Most of the events have no links whatsoever to the running club. Have you ever heard of other clubs doing this because I haven’t. Needless to say, he won't be affiliated with them next year.
Fair point on the half marathon qualification. Re clubs, one I used to belong to had three places. Two were allocated by pulling names out of a hat and the third was allocated by the committee to a deserving case - no set criteria but someone who had put something into the club. I'm sort of in favour of that if it's volunteering at club events, coaching others, organising a race etc. But not for random good works, as you say.
@@tworunningbrooms You pay affiliations fees and that should be enough. Nobody should be forced to volunteer. My twin gives so much of his time for others by volunteering at food banks, guide running and volunteering at races. None of these are on their list so he’s not been included in the club ballot draw. Think it’s absolutely disgraceful.
Very balanced video and agree it's become a farce . I went to watch it this year and took many people with their selfie sticks, on calls on WhatsApp to their mates. The marathon is a major discipline that you should train for. It's not something to enter just to pop on Instagram for likes. Sadly that's how it felt as I watched this year.
As always spot on John. Why can’t those in charge of the London entries see the common sense of encouraging affiliated running clubs by increasing allocation? As you mentioned they often encourage youngsters to take up the sport in which case they have an interest that doesn’t involve trouble or touch screens. Good presentation of the facts and sensible suggestions. 10:5610:56
Thank you Trevor. Sadly I think it's more of a hype event than a race. Which in turn tells young people it's all about being part of the scene rather than working hard to achieve something great.
I agree with what most of what you say , I can’t understand why LM can’t be over the weekend the roads are pretty much closed off most of the time anyway .. More places could be allocated Eg Sat .. Club runners , ballot places … Sun Elites , championship runners .. charity runners … most of the other major races are held over a weekend ..
Great vlog. The system is a mess. What about overseas places? Where do they fit in? Especially for runners that are aiming for the Abbott 6 star medal.
Unable to really say as live in NZ, but your ratios seem pretty fair to me. I do agree with someone else who says it's become a TV spectacle. You have given good insight as I was only aware that there was a ballot.
Excellent video guys. I did it once in 2000 and it’s become a TV spectacle rather than a running event. No other worldwide marathon lauds a finisher in a novelty outfit more than those with 80+ age graded % I’m surprised why any club runner would want to do it now. It’s difficult to find - but isn’t it £500 each charity has to pay per place they get. So the charity entrant might think they’ve raised £2K but only £1.5K will go to their charity - the rest goes into the London Marathon coffers and their undeclared accounts. Don’t think supporting grassroots runners is a priority to them.
We're not certain of the amounts charities pay for their places, but we heard it's a few hundred. It would be good to see the UK Championships and GFA move to a different marathon...
@ it's a real shame about London imho and made worse that there seems to be fewer alternates to London. Liverpool (my hometown) has no marathons at the moment so it's Chester or Manchester
I reckon the clubs should set up another London based marathon…nothing against the charity runners etc. but it feels like London is already over subscribed. A friend of mine running well under 3hr pace was reduced to a walk in places.
Yes we were fortunate to get a proper run when we took part regularly in the early 2000s. Watching the FOD Runner Vlog last year and we were shocked at how congested it was.
I’ve basically given up with London and just look to other marathons now. Got Manchester in April 25 and would like to also do Chester again next year.
Have to agree that running clubs should get more access, for all the reasons you mentioned. There are many marathons for those who want to complete one, the majors are special and spots should go to those who give back to the sport. As an Australian, the only way I will get a place is in a tour group and to be honest, it feels like I'd be stealing a locals chance to run their home race.
I wouldn't think of it as stealing a place. Really, London should be more accommodating, seeing as they are classed as one of the majors! Maybe the answer is moving UK Champs to another marathon, and then there will be more room for those running doing the majors... Just another thought...
I appreciate your views and see the logic of increasing the club places. Most of your audience is probably UK based but as an overseas runner the ballot remains the major avenue to access the marathon, outside of paying a tour operator and their hefty margins. GFA times don't apply to anyone overseas so even hitting the standard doesn't give me anymore chance than Bob who is watching the BBC and decides to have a punt in the lottery. Boston does do charity places but I think that it's about 6000, a qualification time option in London would be great especially for those of us not based in the UK, but that would probably lower (ie quicker) the qualification time as there would be more higher standard runners applying.
It sounds like an unfair system all around, whether UK or overseas. Just looked and appears around 130 000 applications were made for the oveeseas ballot. I couldn't find how many they allocated from that.
The whole system is a mess at London. Too many charity places. Too many people just there for the Gram. Not enough places available for actual runners.
I’d challenge that. How many ‘actual runners’ are in anyway competitive? 20? So why bother with the rest when so many people can run for charity and raise money for causes that desperately need the support?
I like these "how could we improve" videos. No wrong answers?! I've only ever run a good LM when absolutely hating it and hunkering down 🤷🏻♂️ Whatever the allocation, will it not boil down to aiming for a manageable spread of runners going through the finish? 50,000 3hr runners wouldn't work (extreme example). If LM is the pinnacle race, then the Championship would be my first choice out of the 25k. No qualification for ballot, for fear of UTMB style approved races crowding other events out. Leave GFA similar to as it is. Increase club places as they will be spread to the mix of abilities in most clubs. Mine used to do a water station, I think we earned more places - don't quote me. However, I could only apply for a club place if I'd run or did water the previous year.
PS always tricky when I understand an order of magnitude more runners want to run than can. Guess that is why the virtual option is still there. I suppose if you are good enough you can qualify every year but running is getting very popular again and standards are clearly rising even discounting the undoubted effect, if relatively small, of your shoes. A few more places for clubs would be welcome Ave perhaps some other ideas to gain a place by other means which aren’t just performance based. On the face of it these are some runners who seem to at least nearly run everyday but aren’t anywhere near GFA that pop up most years. Have to assume such runners raise an awful lot for charity ? It is clearly a key event for fund raising and I think that element is now set in stone as it were.
Yes I know that shifting the place allocation would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. And that GFA is basically as fair as it as ever been. I think we have, like parkrun, something that was built on and by the running community that has now shifted its emphasis more towards being there than actually trying to achieve anything.
In your breakdown of the allocation you didn’t account for overseas runners - I know from my many years of volunteering at the finish that there are quite a lot of these!
I've never run it or applied, but my close running friend has done about 14-15 as a GFA qualifier...I would say that his perspective of the race has been less positive in recent years (congestion, messed up starting points etc.) but it still has a big place in his heart - bit hrs hoping to go to Berlin instead. I can't really see myself entering anytime soon because of the points you mention, which is a shame.
Yes we saw a few Vlogs - FOD Runner, Nick Bester spring to mind, and we were surprised at the congestion at their faster paces. We head many stories of inadequate toilets and crushing.
Totally agree on increasing club runners allocation . We used to get additional places for the club volunteers who worked on the baggage lorries but even those numbers have dropped dramatically from 7 to 3 places
Agree that there should be eligibility criteria that you have to at least ran a half marathon to qualify. I had a work colleague, who had never ran before, get a london marathon place first time she applied. She applied with her mates "as a laugh" just to see. She ran it without any training and got about 6.5 hr time. She has never ran since the marathon and said she hated it and won't run again. So it didn't motivate her to train or continue running following her experience.
I would imagine she would hate diving into a marathon with no shorter distance experience. If you really want to run it, at least demonstrate some prior commitment.
Would like to add to this, I got a gfa place today.... But by the skin of my teeth. I'm a 45 yr old who got 3hr 45 min 7 sec at Berlin. I actually didn't expect to get a gfa place with less than a 3 min buffer, but got it by 17 sec buffer in the end if my math is correct (2 min 34 was taken off original 3 hr 48 min 00 sec cut off). Unless things change, I expect that this will be my one and only chance to qualify as gfa until I'm at least 50+ (if I keep my fitness).
Ran the London Marathon once. The accommodation didn't serve an early breakfast, we had to raid the kitchen and finished up with cornflakes and WATER. Couldn't find the milk anywhere. The cost of entry, finding somewhere to stay plus transport just isn't value for money in my eyes. I'd rather put it towards a holiday for Sal, Tan and myself. Totally agree re clubs being allocated far more entries. In 1995, 42 people had managed to run every London Marathon since it began in 1981. It's now down to 6.
The issue you haven’t mentioned , is overseas runners the demand from overseas is phenomenal good runners which have a GFA time are not permitted to apply under current rules, so end up paying a lot of money to enter through commercial sports tours …
Totally agree the other majors GFA (Tokyo excepted) have qualifying times at least it gives an option to get in. Maybe move the championship races to Manchester?
@ sports tours and various travel operators will have an allocation of places they can sell as marathon packages to overseas clients can’t imagine it’s more than around 500 collectively but they could sell easily 5-6 fold that number if there was availability, plus London is one of the Abbott marathon majors along with Tokyo, Boston , Chicago ,Berlin ,New York and now Sydney , but for an overseas runner London will be the biggest obstacle to gain entry
Totally agree UKA running clubs should get additional places. In recent years smaller clubs have to enter a ballot for a place because some clubs were not using their places. To enter the ballot I think you should have at least run a half marathon. I ran it in 2024 and was shocked at the poor runner etiquette including being hit in the face at the finish by a runner throwing his arms out wide for the cameras!
Even as recently as 2017/18 when I was still running we received 3 club places for 200+ members. Interesting that their website states "In 2023, only 69 per cent (1,350) of the 1,980 entries allocated to clubs were used and for the 2024 event we are reducing the total number of entries allocated to clubs to 1,515" If that's due to injuries it seems a big drop out rate?
I got a GFA for 2025 after 8 ballot failures. I like your idea of a previous half marathon to enter the ballot. If a 6 hour cut-off was introduced, it would discourage the 'non running bucket listers' from entering.
Well done on your GFA! There was a time when the roads would open after so many hours, but I believe there was a situation that brought negative attention to the London Marathon for not being inclusive for people who were taking 7 hours plus.
The ballot being open while the previous marathon is on TV is a problem that I hadn't really considered. How many people secure a place in the ballot then don't show up on the start line?
It's a hard one because I'm someone who will never get a GFA time for any marathon and wouldn't be able to raise £2000+ for charity, so the ballot is my only hope. Saying that, I've probably applied about 8 times and never got in.
They should also adopt the transfer/resell option used by TCS Amsterdam Marathon and others. This allows you to transfer or resell (at original cost) your place via their official website to someone who really wants it, if you no longer want the place.
I honestly think people should only be able to run it once every 5 years. If you have been lucky enough to do it once or more then let those who haven't even done it once have a go. I have tried for over 10 years and still not got a place. If I don't get in the ballot next year I am going to suck it up and try and get a charity place. As much as ai try I am unlikely to be fast enough to ever qualify for a GFA. Once I have done it once I will turn my attention to other events and let other first timers have a go.
It's all good ideas and reasons I didn't think of all valid. But for everyone you make happy, anothers made sad as long as the number of entrants is the same. But I vote for 2 London marathons or 3 😂 leave the April one as the major if they like.
I do find it strange how little places that they have for club places, bearing in mind how much they are the back bone of the running community. Plus by increasing that, it encourages people to join clubs and run with other people
My hype for the London marathon is almost gone now. Cynically I think the focus is on being the biggest marathon on the planet rather than being about the running experience. After a few years of regular running, I'm happy to just get out there.
After being accepted for the ballot you should be ineligible for the next 5 years. You've been lucky enough to run it, if you want to do it again you need to do so as a charity place or GFA... Perhaps have fewer pure lottery places and allocate them to lottery places for those who have a POT for a half? I feel that I will never get in.. 😢
I have one more suggestion. Merge the ballot and charity places. The ballot, which to some extent is people having a go at the marathon, who may never run one again, or uk athletic club members that can not get a GFA place like me. If the london marathon is all about doing some good, then what's the point of having 17,000 people not running for any club or charity. Why not make the ballot, a ballot for a charity place which you then can select from a shortlist. The charities get exactly the same amount of money raised by the same number of runners (I know some ballot runners also use their place for a charity, but not the majority). But the rest of the places go to Good For Age, and allow people a true chance to qualify by dropping the qualifying times massively, rewarding uk athletic club members who train week in and week out all year to get a chance at running the marathon and who want to run it every year to validate their efforts and drive them on through those dark, cold and wet night runs during training. Surely that is win win.
Agreed. And 150 years ago they should have stopped the wealth generated from the Yorkshire coal and steel industries coming down to London too to build your fancy buildings :)
I personally think that running in the uk (especially competitive running and club running) needs an overhaul and attitudes need to change. If someone enters the ballot and pays their way what is the problem? Those that say "oooo but I'm a real runner and it annoys me that I can't get a spot"... well get training for a gfa or championship spot and stop being so up yourself. Charity places are what keep the race going every year. The support on the streets isn't for the elites (hardly anyone else knows the winner), it isn't for guys running 2.30. It's for the charity runners and those 5hour marathon Warriors. The only issue I have is the gfa spots. People train bloody hard for gfa and then they go with the masses anyway really and it's a complete gang fuck for the first 15 or so miles with way too many runners. Unpopular opinion no doubt but them there is the facts.
Disagree with you on running clubs. We've been in a few and, with one exception, they have been run by good people with fine intentions. The problem isn't with an abstract `someone' getting in via the ballot - it's just a case of how you weight that against other competing interests such as charities, clubs and faster runners. We didn't knock charity places at all. Although in terms of spectators, we've watched it live several times and our interest was the faster runners we knew. And your final comment about the GFA experience demonstrates that the organisation isn't really interested in the quality of your experience as a running race, but as a jamboree. But thanks for sharing your views as they are thought provoking and I like strongly held sincere views.
One of my clubmates ran 2.27 at London in 2023 and was 72nd in the non elites. Later that year he ran Valencia in 2.26 and was 341st. Why is it that London can't/won't encourage more top club or international runners like this? It's not as if those running 2.20-2.40 will be causing congestion. Overseas runners, I would welcome them but in truth there just isn't room under the current system. London aren't going to conjure up another 500 - 1000 GFA places for overseas runners without taking those places away from somewhere else. Ballot entries, an interesting stat - the number of ballot entrants in the early/mid 90's was around 70,000. 842,000 for this year is quite ridiculous. Club places, I agree the current allocation is way too small.
I’m not a fast runner, although I’ve never done an over 4 hour marathon. Just not fast enough for GFA. I’ve ran 100s of races & Parkruns, so can’t expect folk to cough up for a charity place to pay for my hobby.
As a 69 year old 4 hour marathon runner, it's a complete waste of a marathon training programme as 3/4 of those who were supposed running the same time as mine, were walking up Horse Guards Parade! Sorry, it's become too much of a running festival for me.
All valid points but i think you've deliberately missed the elephant in the room - the charity places. The London Marathon is fastly becoming a charity fun run and less about proper running. It's being taken away from people who are interested in running as a sport or hobby. I agree, proof of at least a half marathon time for ballot access. Why not go further and say no first timers in the marathon? If this is the pinnacle of marathon running, why should it be a first timer event? Just my thoughts.
Way too many charity places!!! I'm all for local charities (hospice, kids charities where it all goes to the good cause) Most big charities are big businesses so most of what is raised goes in business costs and employee/CEOs etc not the charity itself. limit to 5000 Charity places only and those must prove over 80 percent raised goes to the cause. Then, as stated, most places awarded via ballot to people who have completed a 10km at least. Last 5000 ballot for all comers. I've entered Prague for next year.... Just pay your registration and you are in!!! Just like Budapest in 2023..... But DNS'd due to injury 😢
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It's hard to talk about gender in the rhe modern world but there is massive issues with the Good For Age system. The difference between men and women at world record level is 9 minutes there or thereabout. The difference between men and women at London GFA is for my age group 45 minutes. That makes a GFA place achievable for any keen female runner who trains with a club etc. The time last year for men at my age cat was sub 3. We were also emailed saying they will take 5 minutes off that to limit numbers, and in the same emails stated that as its first come, first served, so you need to be 10 minutes inside that time to be sure to get in. So that's 2:45 for men. Essentially, this means you need to be sub elite as a man to qualify. That time is almost a championship entry time.
I train with lots of women and they are incredible, so fast and you wouldn't have any thoughts that women are not as fast or faster than men in many situations. There certainly is not 45 minutes between us. In fact, I would struggle to match the marathon times of the serious women at our club. Huge respect for them. Tye problem is that those runnibg the even want an equal ratio of women and men, which is of course commendable in this more balanced world. However that doesn't reflect the ratio of males to female at the point of application to GFA places which is more like 4:1. So the guys get impossible times and the women get times opened up to balance. This is simply positive discrimination and devalues the womens truly amazing achievements in qualifying. Even my female runner friends think it's unfair for guys. If you look at other marathon qualifying times, they are much fairer and closer. Surely there must be a better system like using run britian rankings handicap to level things up and allow more chance for amature runners to qualify. The mens time should be more like 3:15 and the women's 3:30. That wouldn't stop any of my female serious runner friends still getting their GFA place.
Yes, Dawn believes the times are easier for women to qualify. Her GFA time is 4 hrs 10 mins, and she is 35 minutes inside that. You don't get many men 35 mins inside their GFA times. She believes times have always been slightly softer for women. Women's marathon times are getting faster and faster, so maybe the GFA times for women are due a review...
I agree with this… your distribution of numbers seem fair. Dawn is right in the fact that the UKA clubs are the bread and butter of the running scene in the UK… sadly though it’s become a business rather than a race… money is at the forefront rather than runners
Yes we recall your Vlog from last year and how you came across underwhelmed by the whole thing. Too many runners, hard to spectate and really become a big jamboree and less of a running vibe than when I was fortunate enough to qualify.
@ it wasn’t the vibe I got from 2022, it drastically changed in the space of 2 years… and I feel it’ll only get worse if it keeps going on the way its going…
They should make you enter payment card details when applying for ballot. That would put most non runners off.
Also they allow GFA entrants until end of Feb to pay. They should have to pay within 2 weeks of being accepted and if they don’t their place should be given to the next fastest runner in a reserve list.
Good suggestions there. If only they cared enough to put into practice...
I agree with your points.
I cringe every year I see the BBC presenters encouraging people to apply as you know it will means thousands more non runners applying who will rock up with minimal or no training, reducing the chance of people who run week in week out getting a place.
They won’t change anything though. I think LM management has a similar, “we know best, if you don’t like it …. “ attitude to parkrun leadership. 😬
One idea I have seen before is for someone who gets a place via the ballot, to then be excluded from ballot entry for next “x” amount of years to give others a chance
Yes the similarities with parkrun had occurred to us. Something built off the backs of the running community being increasingly drawn away from them for other agendas. Yes fair point on the ballot, although with a 1 in 50 chance of getting in you'd have a long wait until your next go :)
I agree with you guys and something needs to change , one thing I think is if you have run it the previous year then you shouldn’t be allowed to run it the next year to give others a chance to get a place
That's a perfect example of fairness. 🙂
Good video so thank you both. I have applied for London via the ballot unsuccessfully but rather than being down I run the Shakespeare marathon in Stratford upon Avon on the same day as London, but so did lots of club runners who didn’t get into London either. I agree running clubs should be more influence on places but I can’t see it changing sadly.
Glad you did another instead. You're right in not being down as there are some great marathons put there besides London! 🙂
I think GFA should only be once every two or 3 years. That would spread the good runners throughout other marathons, raising the standard. Not sure it is right that some people (myself included if I had the desire) could have 25+ consecutive London marathons, whilst slightly lesser ability club mates may never get in. Competing club athletes pay for athletic associations and it is ridiculous that clubs get 1 or 2 places.
I see that precipice argument and a good idea to broaden the range of people who get to run it. Totally with you on the under representation of clubs.
Some great points. With anything that gets mad popular inevitably always has to turn super commercial and thus will always cater towards this. For me I've stopped caring about running London if I'm honest. I'll keep entering the ballot for laughs but I really don't care if I get in. For me theres plenty of marathons especially in Europe I would like to try Lisboa, Porto, Seville, Rotterdam and soon to do Valencia. I ran the Madrid Marathon and found the city beautiful and weather awesome, the exhibition not stressful at all. London seems to be the opposite in my mind and probably would cost a lot more for the weekend too!
There's certainly plenty of variety around. I guess for many, London is like getting into Boston, New York, etc. But can see the attraction of other marathons.
It seems the actual GFA cut off for M40s was 3:23 inside the guideline of 3:00:00 so 2:56:37 or better. That said 825 UK M40s have done that 2:56:37 this year. Roughly similar depth for an M40 to say 36:30 10K. So certainly "good" running but I would not say it is exceptional.
Hey Tim, where were you able to find this out? I secured a GFA place as an M50, would be fascinating to know by how much (or little!)
@ it was from posts on the Facebook Sub 3 Marathon group. It seems to have been 3:23 for all the male age groups and certainly M50 as well.
Yes in that regard there is no change in the GFA criteria.
In fact here's a suggestion. Allocate the GFA places based on Wava scores. Say you need 80% age grading to apply and take the top 3000 for both genders.
Cat amongst the pigeons!
@ question of which WAVA scores - the ones parkrun use are well out of date. When I checked the male & female same age group standards gave roughly equal numbers which is the point. On any age grading likely to not get equal number of each gender.
I agree with a lot of what you and Dawn have said. I think more opportunities ought to be given to committed runners to take part. But for London Marathon the priorities are different, not just for commercial reasons (important as they are) but also for them to maintain their “licence to operate”.. which comes down to the politics of closing down a major city and placing a temporary inconvenience on residents and visitors. Without mass open participation and supporting “good causes” the race would not be given its permission to take place. It would lack local support. That’s the world we live in. I’d love it to be more focussed on proper runners but that’s not going to happen.
I’ve managed to secure my good for age, so I’m going to give this one my best shot and, if I get my sub 2:40 target time, probably retire from competitive marathon running.
Fantastic comment and an angle we hadn't considered (being from oop north). Yes the co-operation it must take from the London public and wider civic authorities. We shall follow your journey to that Sub 2:40 with keenness.
@ thanks. By the way, the double thresholds helped but didn’t quite get the time I wanted. Think the mileage may have been too high going into it.
Re the championships, move it to Manchester, Andy and co would love to host the championships and it's not a bad course. Re London, I ran it last year so since I have experienced it , I shall not go for it again better to leave it to those who have not ran it before (every little counts). Love your suggestions turning it more like Boston .. it also allows more focus on other great UK / Ireland marathons for people to enjoy if they choose too (and save a bob or two in the process)
@@JohnBirtchetSharpe more of a runners' race too these days compared to London.
I’m 66 now and must have applied over 20 times and have never been successful. I don’t however begrudge anyone who is a ‘real’ runner as in a club member or who has a ‘good for age’ time getting a place. What I do find frustrating is all the people who don’t train and have no intention of even trying to run the marathon. I’m not talking about runners who take a walking break occasionally. But almost anyone can walk 26 miles - the marathon should be a running challenge and it’s ridiculous that 1000s of club runners never have the opportunity despite their dedication to the sport and all that they have given back. Maybe they could devise a points system where you get credit for your activities in the previous 12 months with points accumulated for marathons half marathons 10ks and even Parkruns. Anyway love the videos - Good Arrows! 🎯
That's a real shame and yes your potential for a place has been overlooked by people who just seem to want to tick something off a bucket list, rather than approach it with the dedication it warrants.
Such a great idea to increase club places - we got 4 places 10 years ago, now 2 - even increasing club places from 1500 to 5000 would be a good start, and it would encourage more aspiring London marathoners to join clubs and discover a love for running more widely than just the one headline race - hope someone from LME is watching this as it makes a lot of sense!
Thank you Jason, yes so much greater good by allocating places that way.
Spot on again John!
Thanks. 👍
As frustrating as it might be for the majority, I quite like the system as it is.
One of my main running goals was to qualify GFA for the London Marathon, and the ever decreasing times has provided motivation to better my marathon time. What started as a sub 3 goal around 5 years ago is now looking like 2:50 (and faster) is needed in future.
Possibly as you say, the marathon championship could be moved to a less charity focused race, such as Manchester.
I did a similar video a couple of years ago and something we've not mentioned is the international places. It's difficult for UK residents to get a place, but must be even harder for international runners without the GFA or championship avenues, it seems the only way is the ballot or with a sports tour/charity place, and for a £225 fee!
@@sambassett5 international runners cannot apply for a GFA place !
How many international places are allocated? We genuinely don't know. I take your point about tighter GFA times raising standards and motivating you in particular to stay ahead of the cut off. Eventually it will be Hunger Games and you'll have to run Sub 2:10 to qualify for the one achievement place on offer alongside 49.999 ballot and charity runners :)
@@tworunningbrooms I'm not sure either, I couldn't find an exact figure. Very true - may the odds be ever in your favour! :)
I agree with your points. (i think the ballot should open when the non-runners have forgotten about it but saying that,fair play to anyone who trains up). clubs should be featured more too.
Thank you. Yes entering during the race is bizarre, except for London Marathon to brag about the amount of applications.
I’ve been lucky to get a GFA place for next year……45=49 age group ran 2:59:10 this year using the club place I was given as you say, we have one place for a sizeable club
A club place that has generated another place with you qualifying. Well done! We're definitely in favour of clubs having more places.
@@tworunningbrooms I agree with you, I also wonder how close to capacity London is with 55,000 people running ….is there room to go to 60,000 and create more club runners places ?
@@derekpugh5457 I think that would cause awful congestion on the course - it looked pretty busy last year.
Cheers John & Dawn. Great video. The suggestions mentioned are fair but London don't care about what is fair. They love seeing social media posts of disappointed runners as it fuels the hype.
Can I raise a couple of points.
1- Dawn is right when she says Championship place should be honoured but even that process is flawed. I know a lass who ran a 1:31 HALF Marathon (outside her qualifying time) having not ever a marathon in her life. She still got a start in the London Championship pen.
I find that absolutely ridiculous and unfair. You should not be allowed to qualify for a marathon, by running a half as they’re completely different challenges.
2- Regarding Running club places, I’d like to know your thoughts on this. My twin brother's club have said you can only be considered for London club place ballot if you have volunteered at one of several events at their discretion. Most of the events have no links whatsoever to the running club. Have you ever heard of other clubs doing this because I haven’t. Needless to say, he won't be affiliated with them next year.
Fair point on the half marathon qualification. Re clubs, one I used to belong to had three places. Two were allocated by pulling names out of a hat and the third was allocated by the committee to a deserving case - no set criteria but someone who had put something into the club. I'm sort of in favour of that if it's volunteering at club events, coaching others, organising a race etc. But not for random good works, as you say.
@@tworunningbrooms You pay affiliations fees and that should be enough. Nobody should be forced to volunteer.
My twin gives so much of his time for others by volunteering at food banks, guide running and volunteering at races. None of these are on their list so he’s not been included in the club ballot draw. Think it’s absolutely disgraceful.
@@MrCol104 That's a shame and seems an odd way to go about things.
Very balanced video and agree it's become a farce . I went to watch it this year and took many people with their selfie sticks, on calls on WhatsApp to their mates. The marathon is a major discipline that you should train for. It's not something to enter just to pop on Instagram for likes. Sadly that's how it felt as I watched this year.
Sadly it's all got very modern hasn't it? Rewards without the sacrifices.
As always spot on John.
Why can’t those in charge of the London entries see the common sense of encouraging affiliated running clubs by increasing allocation? As you mentioned they often encourage youngsters to take up the sport in which case they have an interest that doesn’t involve trouble or touch screens.
Good presentation of the facts and sensible suggestions. 10:56 10:56
Thank you Trevor. Sadly I think it's more of a hype event than a race. Which in turn tells young people it's all about being part of the scene rather than working hard to achieve something great.
I agree with what most of what you say , I can’t understand why LM can’t be over the weekend the roads are pretty much closed off most of the time anyway ..
More places could be allocated
Eg Sat .. Club runners , ballot places …
Sun Elites , championship runners .. charity runners … most of the other major races are held over a weekend ..
Like a Festival of Running idea? We like that.
Great vlog. The system is a mess. What about overseas places? Where do they fit in? Especially for runners that are aiming for the Abbott 6 star medal.
I don't think there is much consideration for overseas runners. Apparently, it's the ballot or tour companies.
Unable to really say as live in NZ, but your ratios seem pretty fair to me. I do agree with someone else who says it's become a TV spectacle.
You have given good insight as I was only aware that there was a ballot.
Only a ballot for overseas runners, but we didn't look deeply into that. As you see, UK entrants have a few options...
Excellent video guys. I did it once in 2000 and it’s become a TV spectacle rather than a running event.
No other worldwide marathon lauds a finisher in a novelty outfit more than those with 80+ age graded %
I’m surprised why any club runner would want to do it now.
It’s difficult to find - but isn’t it £500 each charity has to pay per place they get. So the charity entrant might think they’ve raised £2K but only £1.5K will go to their charity - the rest goes into the London Marathon coffers and their undeclared accounts.
Don’t think supporting grassroots runners is a priority to them.
We're not certain of the amounts charities pay for their places, but we heard it's a few hundred.
It would be good to see the UK Championships and GFA move to a different marathon...
@ it's a real shame about London imho and made worse that there seems to be fewer alternates to London. Liverpool (my hometown) has no marathons at the moment so it's Chester or Manchester
I reckon the clubs should set up another London based marathon…nothing against the charity runners etc. but it feels like London is already over subscribed. A friend of mine running well under 3hr pace was reduced to a walk in places.
Yes we were fortunate to get a proper run when we took part regularly in the early 2000s. Watching the FOD Runner Vlog last year and we were shocked at how congested it was.
I’ve basically given up with London and just look to other marathons now. Got Manchester in April 25 and would like to also do Chester again next year.
Yes we enjoyed the Manchester experience, if not our actual performances. Chester looked well organised too. Consider Yorkshire also.
Have to agree that running clubs should get more access, for all the reasons you mentioned. There are many marathons for those who want to complete one, the majors are special and spots should go to those who give back to the sport. As an Australian, the only way I will get a place is in a tour group and to be honest, it feels like I'd be stealing a locals chance to run their home race.
I wouldn't think of it as stealing a place. Really, London should be more accommodating, seeing as they are classed as one of the majors! Maybe the answer is moving UK Champs to another marathon, and then there will be more room for those running doing the majors... Just another thought...
How many UKA running members are there? A percentage of that number would be a good starting point for figuring out how many places clubs should get.
Seems to be around 147,000 runners. So London Marathon offering one place for every 100 registered runners.
I appreciate your views and see the logic of increasing the club places. Most of your audience is probably UK based but as an overseas runner the ballot remains the major avenue to access the marathon, outside of paying a tour operator and their hefty margins.
GFA times don't apply to anyone overseas so even hitting the standard doesn't give me anymore chance than Bob who is watching the BBC and decides to have a punt in the lottery.
Boston does do charity places but I think that it's about 6000, a qualification time option in London would be great especially for those of us not based in the UK, but that would probably lower (ie quicker) the qualification time as there would be more higher standard runners applying.
It sounds like an unfair system all around, whether UK or overseas. Just looked and appears around 130 000 applications were made for the oveeseas ballot. I couldn't find how many they allocated from that.
The whole system is a mess at London. Too many charity places. Too many people just there for the Gram. Not enough places available for actual runners.
Certainly the amount of charity places could do with a rethink.
I’d challenge that. How many ‘actual runners’ are in anyway competitive? 20? So why bother with the rest when so many people can run for charity and raise money for causes that desperately need the support?
I like these "how could we improve" videos. No wrong answers?!
I've only ever run a good LM when absolutely hating it and hunkering down 🤷🏻♂️
Whatever the allocation, will it not boil down to aiming for a manageable spread of runners going through the finish? 50,000 3hr runners wouldn't work (extreme example).
If LM is the pinnacle race, then the Championship would be my first choice out of the 25k.
No qualification for ballot, for fear of UTMB style approved races crowding other events out.
Leave GFA similar to as it is.
Increase club places as they will be spread to the mix of abilities in most clubs. Mine used to do a water station, I think we earned more places - don't quote me. However, I could only apply for a club place if I'd run or did water the previous year.
Some good points. We hadn't thought about the pre qualification becoming similar to entry for UTMB....
PS always tricky when I understand an order of magnitude more runners want to run than can. Guess that is why the virtual option is still there. I suppose if you are good enough you can qualify every year but running is getting very popular again and standards are clearly rising even discounting the undoubted effect, if relatively small, of your shoes. A few more places for clubs would be welcome Ave perhaps some other ideas to gain a place by other means which aren’t just performance based. On the face of it these are some runners who seem to at least nearly run everyday but aren’t anywhere near GFA that pop up most years. Have to assume such runners raise an awful lot for charity ? It is clearly a key event for fund raising and I think that element is now set in stone as it were.
Yes I know that shifting the place allocation would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. And that GFA is basically as fair as it as ever been. I think we have, like parkrun, something that was built on and by the running community that has now shifted its emphasis more towards being there than actually trying to achieve anything.
In your breakdown of the allocation you didn’t account for overseas runners - I know from my many years of volunteering at the finish that there are quite a lot of these!
Do you know if there is a specific allocation and if so how many?
I've never run it or applied, but my close running friend has done about 14-15 as a GFA qualifier...I would say that his perspective of the race has been less positive in recent years (congestion, messed up starting points etc.) but it still has a big place in his heart - bit hrs hoping to go to Berlin instead. I can't really see myself entering anytime soon because of the points you mention, which is a shame.
Yes we saw a few Vlogs - FOD Runner, Nick Bester spring to mind, and we were surprised at the congestion at their faster paces. We head many stories of inadequate toilets and crushing.
Totally agree on increasing club runners allocation . We used to get additional places for the club volunteers who worked on the baggage lorries but even those numbers have dropped dramatically from 7 to 3 places
Yet, they still want the loyalty of clubs to support the event infrastructure.
Agree that there should be eligibility criteria that you have to at least ran a half marathon to qualify. I had a work colleague, who had never ran before, get a london marathon place first time she applied. She applied with her mates "as a laugh" just to see. She ran it without any training and got about 6.5 hr time. She has never ran since the marathon and said she hated it and won't run again. So it didn't motivate her to train or continue running following her experience.
I would imagine she would hate diving into a marathon with no shorter distance experience. If you really want to run it, at least demonstrate some prior commitment.
Would like to add to this, I got a gfa place today.... But by the skin of my teeth. I'm a 45 yr old who got 3hr 45 min 7 sec at Berlin. I actually didn't expect to get a gfa place with less than a 3 min buffer, but got it by 17 sec buffer in the end if my math is correct (2 min 34 was taken off original 3 hr 48 min 00 sec cut off). Unless things change, I expect that this will be my one and only chance to qualify as gfa until I'm at least 50+ (if I keep my fitness).
Ran the London Marathon once. The accommodation didn't serve an early breakfast, we had to raid the kitchen and finished up with cornflakes and WATER. Couldn't find the milk anywhere. The cost of entry, finding somewhere to stay plus transport just isn't value for money in my eyes. I'd rather put it towards a holiday for Sal, Tan and myself. Totally agree re clubs being allocated far more entries. In 1995, 42 people had managed to run every London Marathon since it began in 1981. It's now down to 6.
Thanks Steve. Accommodation is now eye wateringly expensive compared to my experience of the early 2000s.
The issue you haven’t mentioned , is overseas runners the demand from overseas is phenomenal good runners which have a GFA time are not permitted to apply under current rules, so end up paying a lot of money to enter through commercial sports tours …
Totally agree the other majors GFA (Tokyo excepted) have qualifying times at least it gives an option to get in.
Maybe move the championship races to Manchester?
What is the overseas allocation? We didn't read about that when making this video.
@ sports tours and various travel operators will have an allocation of places they can sell as marathon packages to overseas clients can’t imagine it’s more than around 500 collectively but they could sell easily 5-6 fold that number if there was availability, plus London is one of the Abbott marathon majors along with Tokyo, Boston , Chicago ,Berlin ,New York and now Sydney , but for an overseas runner London will be the biggest obstacle to gain entry
Totally agree UKA running clubs should get additional places. In recent years smaller clubs have to enter a ballot for a place because some clubs were not using their places. To enter the ballot I think you should have at least run a half marathon. I ran it in 2024 and was shocked at the poor runner etiquette including being hit in the face at the finish by a runner throwing his arms out wide for the cameras!
Yes for many it's a carnival event rather than a running race. We've seen that aspect grow in recent years and it's not the race it was.
How about ways to weight the ballot? Never run before? 1 entry but you get more by running events, volunteering, having affiliation etc.
Yes we broadly agree with some sort of systems which skews it more towards runners and serving the sport in other ways.
Even as recently as 2017/18 when I was still running we received 3 club places for 200+ members.
Interesting that their website states "In 2023, only 69 per cent (1,350) of the 1,980 entries allocated to clubs were used and for the 2024 event we are reducing the total number of entries allocated to clubs to 1,515"
If that's due to injuries it seems a big drop out rate?
Yes we know local club place people who got injured and deferred. I don't think it's clubs not using them.
I got a GFA for 2025 after 8 ballot failures. I like your idea of a previous half marathon to enter the ballot. If a 6 hour cut-off was introduced, it would discourage the 'non running bucket listers' from entering.
Well done on your GFA! There was a time when the roads would open after so many hours, but I believe there was a situation that brought negative attention to the London Marathon for not being inclusive for people who were taking 7 hours plus.
The ballot being open while the previous marathon is on TV is a problem that I hadn't really considered. How many people secure a place in the ballot then don't show up on the start line?
I think fewer these days. Previously folk wouldn't turn up unless you'd done the training. But now finishes of 8 hours plus are encouraged.
It's a hard one because I'm someone who will never get a GFA time for any marathon and wouldn't be able to raise £2000+ for charity, so the ballot is my only hope. Saying that, I've probably applied about 8 times and never got in.
So our argument is if you were a member of a running club (not sure if you are) then you would have a much increased chance of getting in.
Agree with this. Reduce ballot, increase GFA and club places. I'd probably increase club to 7,500 and GFA to 12,500 (rather than 10,000 for each).
Fair enough. Places earned by endeavour either club service or running.
They should also adopt the transfer/resell option used by TCS Amsterdam Marathon and others. This allows you to transfer or resell (at original cost) your place via their official website to someone who really wants it, if you no longer want the place.
Agree with that. In this day and age, it's just a few clicks of a button, not a major hassle.
Are there any designated places for international entrants? Some countries eg. Japan, have an allocation of places for international runners
From what others have said, the only way to enter international entrants is by ballot or tour companies.
It seems to me like they've reached the point where they need to put on the London Marathon more than once per year, just like the Carsington 10k 😅
Yes I think they could learn a lot from RunThrough :)
I honestly think people should only be able to run it once every 5 years. If you have been lucky enough to do it once or more then let those who haven't even done it once have a go. I have tried for over 10 years and still not got a place. If I don't get in the ballot next year I am going to suck it up and try and get a charity place. As much as ai try I am unlikely to be fast enough to ever qualify for a GFA. Once I have done it once I will turn my attention to other events and let other first timers have a go.
Good luck with your continuing search for a place. Hope you make it by some route or other.
It's all good ideas and reasons I didn't think of all valid. But for everyone you make happy, anothers made sad as long as the number of entrants is the same. But I vote for 2 London marathons or 3 😂 leave the April one as the major if they like.
Yes giving to one group would mean taking off another. Three Londons. Now there's a thought :)
I do find it strange how little places that they have for club places, bearing in mind how much they are the back bone of the running community. Plus by increasing that, it encourages people to join clubs and run with other people
Yes London Marathon was originally built on club runners but now seems to want to pivot to a wellbeing event.
My hype for the London marathon is almost gone now. Cynically I think the focus is on being the biggest marathon on the planet rather than being about the running experience. After a few years of regular running, I'm happy to just get out there.
Yes we feel similar. It's gone from race to event.
After being accepted for the ballot you should be ineligible for the next 5 years. You've been lucky enough to run it, if you want to do it again you need to do so as a charity place or GFA... Perhaps have fewer pure lottery places and allocate them to lottery places for those who have a POT for a half? I feel that I will never get in.. 😢
Yes that would be a simple and fairer measure.
I have one more suggestion. Merge the ballot and charity places. The ballot, which to some extent is people having a go at the marathon, who may never run one again, or uk athletic club members that can not get a GFA place like me. If the london marathon is all about doing some good, then what's the point of having 17,000 people not running for any club or charity. Why not make the ballot, a ballot for a charity place which you then can select from a shortlist. The charities get exactly the same amount of money raised by the same number of runners (I know some ballot runners also use their place for a charity, but not the majority). But the rest of the places go to Good For Age, and allow people a true chance to qualify by dropping the qualifying times massively, rewarding uk athletic club members who train week in and week out all year to get a chance at running the marathon and who want to run it every year to validate their efforts and drive them on through those dark, cold and wet night runs during training. Surely that is win win.
That's a really imaginative suggestion and one which we wouldn't be unhappy to see. As you say wins all round.
I have been trying to get some traction on this idea for a while, but I don’t know how to get it to the people who make the decisions.
Newmillerdam
They could just run it twice a year, in April and in October. More humans in the world means more of them want to run.
Good idea on the double header. And yes well spotted one of my favourite places in the world to run.
Speaking as a local, they should stop people coming down from Yorkshire taking places from local people.
Agreed. And 150 years ago they should have stopped the wealth generated from the Yorkshire coal and steel industries coming down to London too to build your fancy buildings :)
@ That’s a long time to bear a grudge!
I personally think that running in the uk (especially competitive running and club running) needs an overhaul and attitudes need to change.
If someone enters the ballot and pays their way what is the problem? Those that say "oooo but I'm a real runner and it annoys me that I can't get a spot"... well get training for a gfa or championship spot and stop being so up yourself.
Charity places are what keep the race going every year. The support on the streets isn't for the elites (hardly anyone else knows the winner), it isn't for guys running 2.30. It's for the charity runners and those 5hour marathon Warriors.
The only issue I have is the gfa spots. People train bloody hard for gfa and then they go with the masses anyway really and it's a complete gang fuck for the first 15 or so miles with way too many runners.
Unpopular opinion no doubt but them there is the facts.
Disagree with you on running clubs. We've been in a few and, with one exception, they have been run by good people with fine intentions. The problem isn't with an abstract `someone' getting in via the ballot - it's just a case of how you weight that against other competing interests such as charities, clubs and faster runners. We didn't knock charity places at all. Although in terms of spectators, we've watched it live several times and our interest was the faster runners we knew. And your final comment about the GFA experience demonstrates that the organisation isn't really interested in the quality of your experience as a running race, but as a jamboree. But thanks for sharing your views as they are thought provoking and I like strongly held sincere views.
Glad I gave up trying to get accepted a decade ago !!!
Enjoy the fact you did the first one. You can't beat that experience.
One of my clubmates ran 2.27 at London in 2023 and was 72nd in the non elites. Later that year he ran Valencia in 2.26 and was 341st. Why is it that London can't/won't encourage more top club or international runners like this? It's not as if those running 2.20-2.40 will be causing congestion.
Overseas runners, I would welcome them but in truth there just isn't room under the current system. London aren't going to conjure up another 500 - 1000 GFA places for overseas runners without taking those places away from somewhere else. Ballot entries, an interesting stat - the number of ballot entrants in the early/mid 90's was around 70,000. 842,000 for this year is quite ridiculous.
Club places, I agree the current allocation is way too small.
Hi Brooms, that comment was from me (Ian Ward), not sure why it has come from my wife's account.
For London Marathon, there doesn't seem to be any interest beyond the Sub 2.10 runners before you get to the charity outfits and stories.
Haha. Make sure she subscribes :)
Applied 9 times, not one entry. No doubt many people have applied many more times and have got nowhere
Yes, there probably are loads who have applied like yourself and never got in, and it will continue if the entry system stays the same.
London is primarily a charity event. They don’t care about runners tbh.
A shame it's changed to be like that.
I’m not a fast runner, although I’ve never done an over 4 hour marathon. Just not fast enough for GFA. I’ve ran 100s of races & Parkruns, so can’t expect folk to cough up for a charity place to pay for my hobby.
As a 69 year old 4 hour marathon runner, it's a complete waste of a marathon training programme as 3/4 of those who were supposed running the same time as mine, were walking up Horse Guards Parade! Sorry, it's become too much of a running festival for me.
Agreed. It's all very modern and a place to be seen rather than a place to give of your best.
All valid points but i think you've deliberately missed the elephant in the room - the charity places.
The London Marathon is fastly becoming a charity fun run and less about proper running. It's being taken away from people who are interested in running as a sport or hobby. I agree, proof of at least a half marathon time for ballot access. Why not go further and say no first timers in the marathon? If this is the pinnacle of marathon running, why should it be a first timer event? Just my thoughts.
Yes we did swerve that element. I don't know if the charity element has increased over the years or not?
Way too many charity places!!! I'm all for local charities (hospice, kids charities where it all goes to the good cause) Most big charities are big businesses so most of what is raised goes in business costs and employee/CEOs etc not the charity itself. limit to 5000 Charity places only and those must prove over 80 percent raised goes to the cause. Then, as stated, most places awarded via ballot to people who have completed a 10km at least. Last 5000 ballot for all comers.
I've entered Prague for next year.... Just pay your registration and you are in!!! Just like Budapest in 2023..... But DNS'd due to injury 😢
Yes charities where people are disconnected from the results of their fundraising are less than ideal. Prague sounds good.