Destiny Gets Called Out In A Surprise Debate...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Last night on Destiny ft. TomFoolery And Perspective Philosophy
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momfoo? xD
Should change your view to when human memories start, because memories are what make you you. Then you can hear them say "animals can remember things, so why kill them? If it's all about "human memories", then human is the only defining factor since animals have memories, why not argue to not abort when they become human (point of conception). I think they fail to understand you don't care about animals and view them differently.
@@ryanw5569 The argument is lost whenever you argue for the potential, since that is the other sides argument being the potential for life.
just watching destiny die inside at the beginning was so fucking funny
repent to Christ God
@@Baggerz182 was a christian. no longer a christian now because of you. thanks
Gotcha…. Anything else?
Girl name
I feel like I out paced him. ...intellectually.. ....Simon says brabarararaabababarararrababaa...... OBAMŇA.... FROM THE COMMAND LINE...ENDURE..
I Die Not Run I Did Not Run I Did Not Run I Did Not Run I Did Not Run
@@fixitfelix718I know all the references except for the Obamna lol
@@TheOneBigRedwhat’s the reference? I’m new here 😊
... "Why're you wearing gloves?"
Why do people wear *gloves* ?!
What is an *article* of *clothing* ?
Why do you *wear* *clothes* ?!
*Obviously* because there's no *social* *stigma* against exposing ones *bare* *hands*
it's *obvious* that my *hands* *are* *cold*
I feel like this comment makes me feel like I was outpaced intellectually
@@skateorpietrue.. I can't comprehend this
@@hobes9799Why do people *comment*?
@@ladyvanda to get attention from your mom I think
@@hobes9799why do moms
I'm sorry, I have to give Destiny the L on this one. Not because I believe he got crushed or anything, but because there were definitely a few points where he didn't even spend the effort of consideration where it was warranted. Yes, this PP fellow (whom I'd never heard of until now) is a goddamn nonsense generator with a gibberish attachment, but he's clearly coming at this from an interesting perspective and entirely good faith.
Yes, some vegans can be obnoxious, but he always seems highly engaged when VeganGainz comes around and now I have to assume it's only because he knows he's not as intelligent as this fellow, and better for clicks because he knows he can mentally bulldoze him. It's a shame, I think we all benefit from good proper discussion, and Destiny would as well, and for note, I am neither Catholic nor Vegan.
He should debate dr avi.
I dont think vegangainz is outclassed by this guy at all.
This guy is British and likes to use sophisticated language, but most of his arguments are pretty dogshit.
90% of his criticisms of Destiny's beliefs aren't even solved by his own.
He pretends that having arbitrary axioms of value is somehow an issue, but fails to prove how his own values aren't arbitrary and based on "feelings" down at their base.
Pretty underwhelming tbh
His bringing up Noah is very ironic. God has no problem drowning all but 2 of every animal, but i cant have a chicken wing for dinner?
Why would you presume that if God can do something then you, a not all-knowing all-seeing being, would be allowed to something similar.
That's like a kid saying that if a grown up can drive a motorcycle then they should be allowed to drive their bike on the highway
when god does it its ontologically a good thing. didnt you listen ?
This is unironically how atheists see religion. God is your daddy. He’s there to help guide and teach, not to be your equal or your buddy, but I mean why would I expect librards to understand the importance of fatherhood. I’m not even religious.
@@dde1fy well, one is destined to follow his father's behaviour, at least in some way. Why is it upon people to regulate themselves and find which ways of the god they cannot follow? Shouldn't it be upon the teacher/father to show only the right ways, or at least explain why other ways are not right to follow?
@@dde1fyCope and seethe with emotional garbage😂
Respect to Vegan Gains to being able to piss destiny off by just sending him a message
Legend
Timestamp?
Time stamp pls?
Conciousness is actually stored in the balls.
girls name (like my comment pls)
Boooo
I think that's cute UwU
Ur mom
No
This is quite possibly the silliest argument and justification I’ve ever heard for the Bible supporting veganism.
For the Noah story, at no point is it made clear that God was saying “in this ONE specific circumstance I’ll allow you to eat meat just because you don’t have vegetables” or “only because there are no vegetables I shall allow you to consume the flesh from the beast of the earth”. That’s not even remotely clear otherwise the vast majority of Catholic or Christian believers would probably be vegan or there would at least be a sizeable faction of vegan Christian’s/Catholics. The “context” he’s alluding to here actually doesn’t even exist and, in reality, context to support the opposite is clearly present in the Bible such as God saying the beast of the earth were created for man to tame and consume (the verse in genesis that Destiny read).
Furthermore, God has quite literally commanded the blood sacrifice of animals. That doesn’t sound very vegan of him just saying. Additionally, while God does condemn the needless suffering of animals that could easily contextually fit as him either condemning acts of animal cruelty (hurting animals just to hurt them) and just trying to convey that man must be ethical when it comes to how exactly they consume animal meat (such as giving them a quick end instead of torturing them).
Let’s go further,
Jesus gave people fish to consume which seems like God is condoning the consumption of animal meat. If god wanted to do a miracle wouldnt it be more miraculous and more of a statement to turn a fish into a plate or platter of beans with rice to feed a multitude?
We must also consider that God made laws on specifically whether or not people can wear mixed fabrics but couldn’t say “don’t eat meat”? He even went as far to outline what specific meats one should not eat such as shellfish but couldn’t say “don’t eat any meat unless you have no other choice for survival”? The fact that he even said you cannot eat specific meats kind of implicitly condones and accepts the eating of every other kind of meat.
There is absolutely no verse in the Bible that condemns the eating of animal meat in its totality. The only way you can make this argument is by just recontextualizing the script to meet your own personal bias, cherry picking, and making huge leaps in logic.
It’s ridiculous.
Why does destiny run and shut down with people like this? this guy obviously seemed pretty good faith, as far as the optics goes maybe he thinks it won't get views, but even so plenty of his other stuff doesn't either, seems like he just avoids smart vegans because it's one of his rare trash takes(ie. avoids very good faith Dr. Avi)
Also I acknowledge PP can absolutely be a gibberish generator at times which may explain some, but that doesn't change other cases
I think he doesn't engage because he doesn't want to be vegan.
@@tannerlawg because what is happening is that he is asking a lot of hard question about consciousness, and when confronted by those same questions he doesn't have a good answer for it. The reason that he does not like is because, in his view, we currently don't have a way to answer that 'objectively', and he stated that is kind of subjective. Go to 1:49 and destiny start to flip those question from there.
He's debated him before and he was so ignorant of topics that I wouldn't be suprised if Destiny's tired of him. You can see it when vegan joins the call
Quick fact check, the amino profile of black beans and brown rice is extremely low on leucine, lysine, methionine, and valine, and gets absolutely trounced by beef.
Christian *stumbles upon a contradiction between scripture and their world views*
"MuSt Be A TeSt FrOm GoD"
Why was destiny like this. Sometimes, he'll extend criminal levels of good faith to people being bad faith and than in this convo the dude was being so nice and destiny was being super bad faith with so many of his positions.
He's had previous conversations with this person's and he's REALLY good faith just REALLY ignorant of a lot of topics
This was a shocker from Destiny. Basically summed his position for these particular topics as debate optics driven. Poor form from him.
I feel like Destiny is acting so childish in this debate because he doesn't have a good argument against it. To be far I'm only 35 minutes in but the vegan guys argument is so easy to understand yet Destiny is acting like he doesn't understand the point. The question is, "Why draw the line at conscious when it comes to killing humans yet draw the line at a things humanity when it comes to everything else." Either consciousness is the thing we value or humanity, it can't be both just to fit a pro-abortion agenda.
I mean this would be true only if you could admit that animals have the exact same level of consciousness as humans and should be protected the exact same. But he doesn’t think this is the case
@@audiewalters8275yea but when asked what that difference is, no one can answer it lol. That’s the point. We don’t understand consciousness, how it arises, what it means, how it shows itself in different people and species and because of this, it’s probably a good idea to not use consciousness (the thing we know almost nothing about) as the standard to decide if a baby gets to live or die.
Damn. On one hand it's a little disappointing to see Big D check out, particularly after wishing for better conversations- but it's also completely understandable for how stale and dry this level can get. It's also so fucking frustrating to receive an accusation of warping your own reasoning for convenience when he as a catholic is doing that exact shit with his own source code...
Kudos & respect for going this far.
Thank you! The catholic says God doesn't do divine intervention when discussing the worldwide flood from God throwing a hissy fit, and completely ignores the story of Moses and his people getting mana from god to sustain them during the exodus. I'm an atheist, I shouldn't know this better than this "educated" individual.
Me, a neuroscientist, getting triggered at the idea that MRIs measure “electrical activity in the brain”
Did they mean EEG?
@@ThinWhiteLuke EEG would be correct yes, I don’t know if they meant that or they actually think MRIs measure electrical activity
@@laurabea660probably the second, what do MMRs actually measure?
@@Zipperheaddttlyou mean MRI? Standard MRIs give a readout of brain structure based on tissue density, whereas functional MRIs such as BOLD give an indirect readout of activity, but they’re actually measuring things oxygenated vs deoxygenated blood as a readout of activity, because oxygenated & deoxygenated blood has different magnetic properties that can be distinguished under MRI, and increased oxygenated blood in a brain area points to increased brain activity
@@Zipperheaddttl MMR typically represents MatchMaking Rating and is a measurement of your skill level, most often it's ELO system or some spin of it. HE MISSPELLED OMEGALUL
I haven’t watched the whole Video yet, but I truly feel like on the vegan thing Destiny does not have a solid ground. When he talks about the quality of a vegan vs omnivore diet. To me it feels like he is looking at through the lens of the „gym bro“ narrative on nutrition, but I could be wrong. EAA‘s are not a problem on the vegan Diet as long as you don‘t just eat one type of food. So as long as you don‘t have JUST legumes or JUST Grains or JUST Vegetables you’re basically fine. But most importantly think as long as you are not an Athlete or a Bodybuilder protein intake is basically negligible, having too much protein seems like the more likely scenario for decreased longevity in most people. Zooming out of the Gym Bro bubble I don‘t see why you wouldn’t mention saturated fat and Cholesterol of animal products, being that it is at least one of the leading cause of our most prominent diseases. And to the B12: it really does come from Bacteria, mammals used to get it from Water or Dirt on things but due to us having clean water now, which is a good thing, it‘s harder to get. Almost all animals are fed B12 supplements anyway, expect from maybe very expensive grass fed animals you’re getting the B12 from a supplement anyways.
For the moral argument I just feel like Destiny does not want to put a lot of effort into separating humans from other animals, he seems very annoyed when it is brought up. I feel like the point of „whe can‘t really see it displayed the same way“ won‘t hold up. Look at Whales for example: marine biologists are still researching the language of sperm whales, I‘ve heard a bunch of times that their language might be in some ways more complex that human language.
I‘ve worked with mentally disabled people for a long time and if you are saying animals are not morally valuable due to their facoulties you should definitely be able to kill disabled people… I don‘t see a good reason to believe human consciousness is fundamentally different to any other animals consciousness, most feel pain, have empathy and emotions,…
Ngl I love this post. But I got to ask. And I'm asking honestly. If the other animals were on our level then why are we dominating? Why are we discovering, inventing, testing, among other things at the rate we do?
@Venezuelasurvived "For the moral argument I just feel like Destiny does not want to put a lot of effort into separating humans from other animals, he seems very annoyed when it is brought up. I feel like the point of „whe can‘t really see it displayed the same way“ won‘t hold up. Look at Whales for example: marine biologists are still researching the language of sperm whales, I‘ve heard a bunch of times that their language might be in some ways more complex that human language"
the whales for example part is what i'm on about
@@thetrib1That’s a good point, I really don‘t want to claim that whales are as intelligent as humans. Destiny brought up speech as an example of what sepperates us as humans. I feel like the whale example shows that it’s not that simple, and animals can have speech too.
I totally agree that humans dominated animals in evoloution but „might makes right“ is not a good standard. I can‘t just rape a woman who is weaker than me for example.
Ethics is very complicated so I wouldn‘t want to take a definite stance but I feel like Destiny doesn‘t engage very well with the topic.
@@DavidLueck1234 I think destiny gets annoyed because it's very obvious how all(including vegans) view animals. all of them view animals as less than and the only differences are how much less than. and also there is no "right" answer. so what's the point. That's what I assume is going on with Destiny. I agree though lol. he usually bull shits when it comes to that lol.
might makes right is really the only standard we have to go off of in most evolutionary cases. whether it's species vs species or species vs elements. if you aren't strong enough you lose. it's how this works. Sure it doesn't feel good, but it is what it is.
@@thetrib1
Hi! I mean what I’m about to say in good faith, since you have been nice in this thread. But the same argument of “why are we more advanced than they are” is a similar thought some people used to justify slavery.
“Well, if those savages are just the same as us, why are they running around in loincloth, living in stick houses when we are exploring the world!! Obviously, they are less than us.”
The answer to that was that just because they are different, did NOT make them less than. People back then needed to view things differently. Could the same argument be made for the animals, that just because they are different than us does not make them less than? Just throwing that idea out there
Destiny was checked out and not engaged at all until he found out this guy was catholic then he got VERY interested lmao
Do u have a timestamp?
34:22
Yea, he then had something to dishonestly attack. When destiny is sat down and genuine my interrogated about his terrible beliefs, he falls apart. Let him know ur catholic and he now has something that is probably inconsistent in your beliefs that he can focus on in order to win optics battles.
Like, Destiny is reading Bible verses to prove that you can eat meat but Destiny doesn’t actually believe in the Bible, so he doesn’t actually believe that argument and is only making the argument to show that his beliefs are contradictory. It’s really snake like and dishonest behavior. We have one guy being good faith and arguing for what he actually believes and the other guy is just looking to use this guys religious beliefs to trip him up for optics wins. Destiny is such a rat.
@@mrmr2488 lmao what a childlike view. He's done this same tactic to Sneako due to Sneako claiming that he is Muslim while proceeding to have sex outside of marriage, or do you think that Destiny is against having sex?
It's not snake like at all to use someone's own logic in order to point out an inconsistency that they hold since they would either have to say "It doesn't align with my religious beliefs, I'll change my religious beliefs" or "My religious beliefs do not align with it, I'll change my stance".
Going off of Catholicism, Jesus would literally have provided fish to people and this man is comparing it to ungodly behaviors which is almost blasphemy
@@tb8654b-b-but Jesus would be vegan today 🙄
Does the topic of transubstantiation ever come up? Eating human meat = ok
the comments are saying this guy was smarter than destiny and i feel like i’ve tripped and landed in the comment section of the wrong video……?
Bro I’m wondering about the exact same thing! There’s so much in that guy’s logic that can be ripped apart.
I wrote him off from the start with his whole behavior = consciousness shit, and then constantly saying it's not really what he believes. Is his audience middle schoolers? It's not that complicated that we map signals in the brain that have a distinct pattern for certain actions or thoughts. He was acting confused about how anyone could possibly determine how a fetus doesn't have consciousness before the brain is really even there.
I love how at 1:49:00 Destiny just turns the thing around hahaha
HE REALLY SAID JESUS WOULD BE VEGAN I CANT 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ive heard some wild interpretations of the bible but this one is just funny.
When destiny acts like this and ppl are legitimately trying to debate and destiny just acts like he's above it, it's not a good look for him, and we all know how much he cares about optics as much as he pretends like he doesnt.
He Makes it look like he's too scared to actually try in a debate with someone who has good arguments. The things he laughs at are just awkward and weird during the debate
If he cared about optics he wouldn't be a giant walking caricature of a typical liberal npc
I think he does say he cares about optics and rhetoric quite often. Additionally, he's debated abortion and veganism many many times over the years. I think he's actually just kind of sick of it.
I do agree that he's in over his head though.
@ezo2161 yet he still breathes and seem to not want to stop. He also ate.... again, and how many days was that in a row? Oh, it was something different from yesterday? But wait, he's been eating that thing every other day for a couple years now! Why would he do that instead of eating the thing he ate every day for 5 years straight? Makes no sense!
Maybe try thinking just a little.
The geordie is boring and unlikeable. Or as he would say an excessively verbous individual unit with the capacity to ilicit the potentiality for negative perceptions from humanity
It's unfortunate that steven doesn't like the vegan/abortion debates because I think those are the only ones where ground can be made cause they're at the edge of most moral frameworks
😂😂😂Sure they are
I wish we could see how many people actually change their minds from these debates.
@@PlumpSortI’ve changed my mind from his debates with Phil bros on veganism and abortion.
@@BlakeZeb Did you go from being non-vegan to being vegan? Or anti-abortion to pro-abortion? What did your mind change from?
@@PlumpSortPersonally I’ve become more pro abortion, but you’ll never convince me to become a vegan
"Also I don care about the topic" is a great way escape when you are cornered in a debate..
He only does it when someone more knowledgeable gets on.... 🤔 curious
I'm 44 minutes in and inclined to agree it's not remotely worth caring about. "God doesn't want us to eat animals" is not very interesting and also impossible to prove either way
@@AcrossTheSea12 Hilarious
@@AcrossTheSea12if that's the extent of what you took away, you might want to rewatch this video as you clearly passed out. The dude argued mostly from a logical position, then Destiny caught a wiff that this guy was religious and desperately pushed the convo in that direction so he could get the optics win you are now espousing, and the guy was more then willing to talk about it in good faith lol. The conversation later pulls back from this guy's religious views and Destiny is still at a complete loss and only able to say "I just don't care" after being completely backed into s corner.
@@kylec8015I can see you've had your daily dose of copium.
Steven's reaction 😂
PS. This was a fascinating debate, more of this please.
I love every convo between destiny and this guy, PP. They used to talk a bit more often, but the vegan stuff scares destiny these days 😢
@@BlakeZebdoesn't scare. Just boring and annoying.
@@---ny4ys Destiny “stopped caring” about meta-ethics around the time that these prior discussions on meta-ethics started having some implications that were hard to contend with, and that he didn’t want to change on.
Whatever cope helps the pill go down, but I’m not buying that that isn’t just cope. He had some great Phil discussions prior, especially around meta-ethics. Very convenient that they just became annoying and boring. :)
@@---ny4ys I’m being cheeky with the scared part but I’m just following in twitterstiny’s footsteps. I stand by the sentiment.
@BlakeZeb or its the same talking point over and over again, so it gets tiring to hear and reiterate your answers.
Destiny unironically owned again
It was at 33:19 Destiny lost the vegan debate. It's actually getting super frustrating that all he does is start to meme and facetiously agree with his opponent when he knows he's losing. I'm so happy this debate got posted so we can finally see Destiny run into a wall with an actual competent vegan opponent, and not Vegan Gains.
Now I need Avi to wipe the floor with Destiny, that would be the dream
"when he knows he is losing" = the other guy going "I don't know what to say" after arguing we don't have a way of perceiving someone else's consciousness.
You thought he made any sort of a point with all that? He just keeps asking for more and more and more until Destiny gives up. "Oh, so we have people with memories, and we have brain scans, and there's verifiable results that match the experiences people describe? Well I don't see how that confirms what consciousness is."
What's the point? Just to pretend we don't (read: can't) know enough to not say any other animal isn't having the same conscious experience? That's just leaping even farther into the unknown, meaning there's no concrete reason to care.
38:05 “Today, Jesus would be vegan” is one of the most insanely stupid religious arguments I’ve heard in a long time. You’re telling me that the son of an omniscient, omnipresent, all knowing, all powerful being who exists outside the confines of time and space wouldn’t have the source of objective “true” ethics to abide by? He would be subject to the ethical beliefs of his time? I don’t think you can believe in the Trinity as the source of moral truth but also think that you as an individual can conceive a more ethical position with which to sway the creator of the universe towards.
I think the problem is that eating meat from factory farming is a thing that when you think about it a little bit can't really be justified. Lets be honest, most people just never think about it and just don't give a fuck and in my eyes that is also the only explanation that makes sense. Just say that you don't give a fuck no problem.
But please don't try to justify that bullshit with some sort of mental gymnastics about consciousness, law of nature of whatever. When in university I did tours through factory farming and gelatin factorys for a span of 3 years and full on grown man that cooked BBQ every day had full on panic attacks and started to cry. One guy even wanted to buy a pig because he didnt want it to die and he freaked out.
Studys show: Animals are conscious, have strong emotions, feel fear, feel pain, have very strong feelings about family and their offspring and are smarter then most people think. 10 BILLION land animals are killed every year in the US alone. And all this while also destroying the planet for food for these factory farmed animals.
But if you want to try to defend it, please try.
I raise sheep for a living. When I slaughter my lamb I do it with, and in front of the whole flock, including it’s mother. After slaughtering there child in front of them they still come and nuzzle me and basically ask for pets and whatnot. They do not care about their young like we do, a sheep’s psychology is vastly different to ours, almost incomprehensibly so.
It bothers me that Destiny avoids this guy. He’s very obviously good faith and he pushes Destiny to a point of actual challenge.
I dunno man, god says it's cool to eat meat and suddenly that part doesn't count? Jesus gives out fish and not veg, but he says the Bible supports veganism? He's worse than VG at least VG is a laugh
Challenge about what??? 😂😂😂😂
The reason is that deep down Destiny knows his own ethical framework would in its perfected form regard veganism as the ethical option. This is why he instinctively avoids talking with vegans whose talking points accelerate the process of Destiny coming to understand this.
@@ergot1803
No because animals are not capable to displaying the kind of consciousness that humans are.
I am not even vegan and I agree. Destiny does seem to just strategically check out when he was being challenged in good faith.
Does anybody else feel like qoranros is completely unfunny?
he should be locked up on Guantanamo for far less...
Tom is pro life… says we should value humans.
Just not women
I'm glad Perspective Philosophy pointed out the biggest flaw in Destiny's reasoning, or at least the most ambiguous part of his thought process. Why he is so confident that the human brain is so different from animal brains that not only are we more intelligent, but that our brains are the only ones complex enough for consciousness, despite all of the brain structures we share with other animals. I see absolutely no reason to believe that's the case. Destiny doesn't care about refining this position so we'll probably never see him elaborate on why he is so confident in that. Oh well.
I don't think that is his take. iirc, His take is that it's not close. Not that no other animal Has conscious experience.
Destiny doesnt say that animals aren't conscious, he just says that their experience is vastly different from ours. Did you listen to anything he said?
@@thetrib1the problem then becomes whether we really believe a 20 week year old fetus has higher order consciousness than a dog. There isn’t any evidence of this and observation tends to lean contrary to the perspective.
@@_Addi_yeah that is moot then because we have to find some reason to value human consciousness over other consciousness. Squaring these things are important because otherwise the reasoning becomes tautological, that is, we value human consciousness because we value human consciousness. That’s fine but it makes destiny’s position as consistent as any pro-lifers position which is that we value human life period.
@@rand0mletters1 Go read his positions page if you want to know why he values human life. His reasoning is very clear.
Any vegan who claims that veganism isn't difficult to pull off nutritionally is bad faith. Vegan diets are probably better than the Average American diet, but the easiest way to implement a healthy diet probably involves the occasional meat or animal product.
Source: Am vegan
Agreed, although I don't think this is inherent to veganism, it's just true because non-vegan products are currently the default option. If veganism were the default, or even dramatically more popular, it would also probably be easier to have good/complete nutrition as a vegan.
with home meals its not that difficult but might require a little thought for protein
Anyone else love how relatable it is to the line “anything else buddy” 😂 I’m crying every time I hear it now
Putting drugs in your butt makes them so much stronger - booty snort ftw
Listening to this guy try to use the Bible to justify veganism gave me a stroke.
Always happy to see destiny talk to someone educated in philosophy.
there exist a fine line between philosophy and pedantry, but I'm only 35min in so maybe it gets better :P
@@klobmukphilosophy is pedantry, meta ethics is autism.
@@unyieldingmonotony4453 haha
"Educated in philosophy" ok lol. The guy was saying God doesn't do divine intervention when discussing the worldwide flood from God's temper tantrum. On top of that, God supposedly passed mana down to Moses and the escaping slaves. The guy has put very little thought into his positions. Education be damned, he needs introspection.
@@Kildigshe said one wrong thing therefore he is terrible in all aspects, he did really well to pick holes how arbitrary destiny position on abortion is, and destiny pretending to be bored to not engage was just sad.
The poor vegan is trying to use ad hoc as a verb. "Unless we ad hoc it."? That's like saying "The man fast down the street." Really weird
I love vegan debates... surprisingly
PP seems like a nice guy but he's just Worse Zizek, up to and including "being wrong about everything that isn't Hegel and Lacan". at least Zizek has the sense to theorize catholicism without actually being catholic
Diplomacy only exists because of war/fighting, you can’t say diplomacy is the natural inclination of humans when it literally has to be a response to conflict
You can if you believe war is an inherent human quality. But all life experiences conflict, in where diplomacy could be employed. Yet diplomacy isn’t seen much in anything but humans
I love the part where Destiny pulls up fruits and vegetables poison more Americans than beef and chicken article and the dude says I don't think that's true.
Destiny got destroyed in this surprise debate.
Destroyed? 😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@eigna8914he kind of did though, especially in the abortion part.
I agree with destiny here, but he did not win this debate.
@@adamtrott78 No he didn't. Tell me WHAT was said that destroyed him? I'll wait
@@eigna8914 I mean they’re probably talking about the entirety of the discussion, the arguments given at each stage, a whole line of argumentation leading to certain places, etc
This seems like a piss poor way to engage with a debate like this champ. Lol
@@BlakeZeb So you cant say ONE THING that destroyed him? 😂🤣
These are such boring arguments. His disagreements center around the idea that there is something inherently erroneous in arbitrarily attributing different values to different categories. EVEN IF we allow for the idea that human conscious experience is a difference in degree not a difference in kind, the human conscious experience is evidentially orders of magnitude more complex, greater in degree by thousands, millions or billions. There is a difference, substantially so, whether or not they're a difference in degree or in kind. As a result the end of the discussion is to answer "Yes, these are arbitrarily attributed values between humans already born, fetus' and animals". That is consistent with his value paradigm as well (almost CERTAINLY) and can be examined with questions like:
- You can save 1000 dogs or 1000 humans who do you save?
- You can save 1 baby or 1000 dogs which do you save?
- You can save 1 pregnant woman or 1000 dogs which do you save?
Equally, just ask him whether he's accidentally killed insects and whether he has an emotional experience that is similar to if they accidently killed a human. Of course it wouldn't be, therefore he exists also in a place where he automatically arbitrarily attributes different values between different species. It's such a faulty argument, he has to be an absolute paragon in order for him to truly live the way he expects others to live, it's a pious con he's playing on himself
destiny should not go down the nutritional side of the vegan debate. please lord no
Why? They have many problems with it, he shouldn't debate vegans because all vegans no matter the sex are women. One doesn't "debate" women.
really backed to the wall when he threw a rock from that pile eh?
Did he actually start that in this? Cause I'd love to see the triggering.
@@mrjtfang2 he couldn't trigger because PP already has that down lol
@@The1commenterguyloooool
Oh gaaaad perspective philosophy plz god no!
When they start getting down to 8 weeks, having only men on the panel, it doesn’t occur to them that 8 weeks means a possible 4 weeks of being aware that one is pregnant.
His view on animals seems a bit off to me. I feel like most people would not be okay with murdering dogs most of it is socialized. We can feel empathy for animals Destiny lacks empathy unfortunately
I think he has empathy for dogs etc but pretends not to in a debate on meat eating so as to remain morally consistent
They are animals...yall weirdos act like they are human babies. That is empathy or crazy?
@@makefoxhoundgreatagain842funnily it’s still not even morally consistent considering his position is based on whether he cares about animals and not whether their form of sentience is worth moral consideration. I would understand and agree if he said they’re worth less moral consideration, but not nothing at all lol. If someone said “children aren’t worth moral consideration because i don’t care about them, so pedos can rape them for all i care,” people wouldn’t respond so kindly lol. Pretty sad he doesn’t even bother to think about veganism.
@@gogledhol You may be an animal!!!! Im not
I think animals should be treated better. Their suffering should matter. Killing them instantly is fine though because they don't have preferences about not dying (not the way we do).
If there's a chance of them dying what does it matter if you kill them anyways. Solid logic from destiny lol
"Your pullout game is weak, youre going to jail." Imagine.
Didn't we fall from grace by eating fruit?
BASED
Technically by not following the one rule given to man represented by being tricked to eat the fruit. It was the disobedience…. I like what you did there though 😂
Diddapponting listening to steven dismiss compelling srguments
Pretty disappointing from Destiny here. He just shutdown.
Happens when he gets bored with the responses. Usually because they don't really satisfy the conditions of his questioning.
Bro, PP is exhausting to talk to, let alone debate. He rambles for 10 billion years and circles the drain like he's trapped in a vortex. I was shutting down just listening to this shit.
It's dumb!!!!! Talking about nothing. The same thing over and over.
Hey so did Destiny die in Diablo 4 or did he just stop playing it
Never have I seen someone go so quickly from having a borderline profound perspective in the abortion debate to buffoonish in the vegan debate.
Speaking about destiny right
@@sentientbean9853lol fr
Am not sure how long Destiny will just keeping coping so hard when it comes to veganism, its so bad.
@@Veggiesareguud not even vegan, but it's a clear blindspot.
@@EricTitansSmithSame. Not a vegan, and it’s super clear.
It’s frustrating too, cuz I like philosophy a lot. Especially shit like meta ethics. Destiny used to have some great convos with the TH-cam Phil circles. Now he can barely tolerate those kind of discussions and I feel it’s mostly because of the vegan stuff.
The abortion/miscarriage ratio doesn't pass the sniff test of any thinking person. An average person would see their error after having it explained to them, more than once, by two people. The mod just... kept at it. Yikes.
Yeah. Also says a lot that the mod didn't reveal his source.
Destiny took a huge L here
This has to be the weakest vegan argument I have ever heard.
Two and a half hours of the abortion debate and the vegan debate smashed together? Nope, hard pass.
I'd rather listen to 10,000 hours of Zerka, Sneako, Farha, and Qurantos yelling gibberish at each other with their microphone gain turned up way too high.
That would be based. Only thing that could make it better is if they started calling for people to go pay a visit to the children at their local federal synagouge.
Personally, I would rather gouge my eyes than listen to all those retards screaming at each other. To each their own.
10000 hours = 1.141553 calendar years btw
ngl I’d pull the trigger before the end of January
@@Comisioned nigga what ? 😭
thanks for the heads up
Humans tend to value human consciousness because that behaviour increases evolutionary fitness no? I'm pretty sure it's a trait that was selected for like any other
Aren't people tired of debating the same arguments over and over again?
Redpill abortion veganism on repeat
You see this from the perspective of a listener hearing the same shit over and over. These obsessed clout chasers want to say their piece so they don't get tired before that.
I too would be tired of arguments that didn't have satisfying dunks for
Destiny's whole argument fell apart that's why he is now backing out of this conversation and saying he doesn't care.
@@RemOmniLOOOOOL. THE COPE.....
With GWarmimg and the reprecission of this on crop farming, it's a worry that all the vegans will die.
I grill vegans with olive oil
YUM!
Why cannot consciousness be emergent from insane amount of if then statements or something like that self referencing each other? Aka The collective behaviour of all the neurons and pathways leads the consciousness. This is why I think p zombies are impossible concept because P zombie that is physically EXACTLY the same and behaving EXACTLY the same as the "normal" person is by all measures conscious.
I think we don't care about consciousness as some complex interactions of neurons to detect sensory inputs and process them but rather just the self perception part of it when it comes to abortion debate. A child might be born blind, deaf and dumb but it would still be able to perceive its own existence. This specific quality of consciousness is in question here.
It can't because it's never been created before. Bring this back after it happens. Only then would we know the specific point or intricacies needed.
fart
Poopiefart
Shart
so true bestie
Destiny's totally debate-brained here. I usually give him the benefit of the doubt but this is very abnormal behavior.
This guy is actually tilting me. He’s basically saying the Bible changes as we learn more which just isn’t true.
He mentions Christian ethics as developing, so he likely believes in a sort of hermeneutics regarding the Bible. The hermeneutical loop would suggest that our understanding of the Bible changes through context -- the text would be useless to someone devoid of any experiences.
> Vegan Gains enters the VC
*Steven is laughing in the background and knows it's going to be entertaining*
> PerspectivePhilosophy enters the VC
"OH GOD IT'S GOING TO BE A VEGAN DEBATE OHHHH NOOOOO"
it does feel like he mostly engages with VG because he's a bit of a clown who's easier to dunk on than Ask Yourself or Dr Avi or PP who are all more rigorous and well-informed compared to VG
Has Destiny ever defined what he means when he says consciousness?
Destiny is really stretching the the elderly analogy
One of the very very few debates where destiny got out done
By a catholic who argues God doesn't do divine intervention during the topic of the great flood and is seemingly ignorant about the mana God supposedly passed to Moses and his people during the Exodus? Yes he outdid Destiny's retardation.
Love how this guy questions the very idea of how we measure consciousness and objective value systems but doesn’t question his own ideas in the same way when it comes to souls or his Catholic beliefs. Oh so objective value itself can’t be understood without God “presumably” since he is Catholic, but if objective value only comes from God then value isn’t objective and it’s meaningless.
I think Destiny needs to stop debating Christian apologists at this point, they aren’t debating in good faith because they aren’t really debating, they are preaching, you can’t be looking for truth when you already feel you have it in your back pocket.
The fact that CatholicVegas makes a definite distinction between a miscarriage, and an actual childs death says everything about his belief of fetus being an actual child.
Seems destiny hates the concept of difference in consciousness of humans and animals. But it is his biggest talking point for abortion. Usually he welcomes people fighting on his beliefs but here he seemed annoying I wonder what’s up.
He hates it because it's irrelevant to his position. He's not a vegan, and has always fundamentally been ok with killing animals for human consumption, but not humans. So the consciousness qualifier is only relevant to when a human life starts. Non-human animals could display any level of consciousness and he would still be ok with slaughtering them, attacking differences between them will not change that.
its annoying to converse with people who based 100% of their reasoning behind their arguments on nosnense like religon or something someone told them. They dont give a fuck about women or feauti. Theres literally no way to cinvince these people even when destiny points out the flaws in their argument they come back with some utter nonsense they dont even believe like when they were chuckling when destiny said you should be talking about miscarriages if babies are dying.
@@WookieWarriorz Sure, but destinys evidence and logic of consciousness has to be really good or we are giving the opposition more easy points and harder for them break out of their cognitive bias.
@@WookieWarriorzYea, like when destiny was using the words of the Bible (that’s he doesn’t actually believe in) to prove that it’s fine to eat meat. Oh wait, you were talking about his opponent, oops.
@@alsing8010It doesnt matter how good the evidence is for or against something, when the person has bought into something that has no evidence. It is almost impossible to change their opinion at that point, especially when they're older. Because by then, it has become the bedrock for everything they think, and to concede that it isnt true would be to concede that their whole world view is fundamentally incorrect.
Treaty of Tripoli 1797, as signed by John Adams: "“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."
The US is not and never has been a Christian nation as per our founders own words.
My goodness im so done with these debates i need something new i havent heard from Aela in a while or Anastasiya in awhile
God, to be a christian. Must be so great to just have this magical thing to build every shitty argument around, and when you cant build any argument you just say "I don't know, but my magical buddy surely has a plan".
Intellectual Christians exist.
One of most bad faith Destiny conversations I've seen this year :/
Bad faith how?
@@mindlander Kind of just laughed off his admittance to not having anything else to say and agreeing with Perspective Philosophy. Then only went in once he found out he was religious, and redirected focus towards that even though PP's position wasn't at all dependent on his Catholicism.
@@quiensera9947 fair enough. I think he just had nothing else to say. I didn't understand the point of arguing about consciousness.
@@mindlanderwell when you're trying to have abortion debates, that seems pretty important lmao
@@bflagg94 destiny's argument seems straight forward. Before consciousness, there's no person to speak of. Once it starts, the ability for future consciousness is taken into account. The level of consciousness seems irrelevant.
The Bible does talk about vegetarians, we should not judge them for their weak faith, and if we are in their home we should not eat meat to tempt them. It's in Roman's 14 and Corinthians.
HAIL SATAN!
6 minutes in and this philosopher guy is already on a lecture lmao
i understand destiny's face full of pain now, this is insufferable
We don't eat dolphins, we eat cows and chicken. How consciouss are they? I can understand that we don't eat dolphins and apes. But chicken?
If it moves slows - it goes on the grill!
Chickens, barely at all, considering you can cut their heads off and they don't change much in behavior.
@@CEWIII9873 lol
1:02:40 "if you're acting in a way that has a 1% chance to kill a child...." That's not the situation. If a woman has a 1% chance of pregnancy while on birth control and there's an 8% increase in risk of miscarriage due to alcohol consumption ("Week-by-week alcohol consumption in early pregnancy and spontaneous abortion risk: a prospective cohort study", Sunderman, et al. 2020), 1% * 8% = 0.08% of an alcohol-related miscarriage if you're on birth control and don't know you're pregnant. Parents put kids in car seats and there's a much higher probability that they'll die in one of those; it seems like by Destiny's logic that should be considered manslaughter.
Don't get me wrong, I like most of Destiny's takes. It just seems like as soon as it gets to abortion and veganism he flounders and can't find a consistent line.
I'm really surprised how adversive Destiny is to engaging with pp in the first chunk of conversation. Does he just not want to deal with some of the harder conversations/implications of his position?
he got tired of debating philosophy, it's just not fun, specially against the philosophy bros who can't communicate their ideas without using philosophy jargon inaccessible to the laymen, which most of destiny's audience are.
@fran13r "he got tired of debating philosophy" bro he's on an abortion debate streak right now, philosophy is unavoidable
@@bflagg94yes but it’s mostly just him talking.
these vods/clips are kinda boring without dgg chat
This dude is based as fuck
35:52 god literally told people to eat animals…
Plus Cain and Abel's conflict was over god appreciating the letting of blood from animals over crops grown from the earth right?
Haven't watched yet but I hope they bring up trans people so we have the great Destiny Triple Threat.
This guy was peaking my nerd brain so much. This was basically life at The Newschool
I'm 15 minutes in and I have no clue what the guy with the accent is saying.
Its nice seeing Destiny talk to someone smarter than him.
What, the catholic who argues God doesn't do divine intervention when discussing the great flood and ignores the story of Moses getting mana to sustain his people during the exodus? If you really think he's smart, he must be approaching this in bad faith because i'm an atheist and even I had these stories pop in my head during the discussion. This fellow has spent 0 time on introspection.
@@Kildigs atheists are so fucking cringe.
Ah, I see his fans have come to cope for him.
@@_Addi_ im a destiny fan, never knew about trent or this other guy until destiny spoke to him. i would say this regardless of the guest.
@@highwater1862 Was this ironic, a troll, or are you actually serious?
You can't appeal to divine command theory with Jesus. The whole point of Jesus is that he didn't commit any human sins ffs. The entire concept falls apart if you say "He committed the same sins as any other human but it's okay because it doesn't count when he does it".
Standard Christians interpreting the Bible in the wildest ways to fit their own personal morals while pretending they have something more than the antirealists.
TomFoolery is the best. Everyone needs to give credit to TomFoolery for this amazing panel!
Reverse psychology hate mongering BASED
He IS very handsome AND better with the ladies than Darius, its like a known thing
Handsome and intellectual boy
Tom can be decent when he wants to be. The problem is he has no integrity, and therefore no consistency.
Tom is amazing. I heard from alot of women that he rizzed that's he's smart, funny, and probably longer than every man. Tom is the best!
I love how he picks the worst vegan debaters to debate instead of Avi.
there are no good vegan debaters
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't God omniscient? Like, knowing the future? If so, after seeing how we turned out now, he chose specifically to not make eating animals a sin. It's just kooky bs
This is something I don't understand about other physicalists. Why does Steven think that consciousness is just emergent from physical properties, yet he believes that consciousness cannot arise from if>then processes? What else would consciousness be on a physicalist model? How is this so hard to understand? Awareness is just a reflective process which is a capability of the physical brain.
More complex than an if>then. It's not like destiny says we know everything about neurology.
@@mrjtfang2 How so? You aren't explaining how, you're just saying it is. What other processes are involved in deterministic physicalism that would result in "more" than if>then processes?
I'm not implying that he says we know everything about neurology.
@@cloudoftimeisn’t it the case that if it was as simple as if>then we would already know everything about neurology? We don’t. That is why it is more complex. You can’t just boil every single process in our complex consciousness that even the leading neurologists and scientific community doesn’t fully understand, down to basic if>then that just doesn’t make much sense imo.
@@Prometiumz Why would it mean that? There are if>then processes which cannot be observed due to limitations in detection abilities. My question still remains, if it's all physical and deterministic, what else is there? It's just matter/energy formed in different ways, functioning with causal mechanics.
@@Prometiumz To add to my last reply, I'll give you an example: weather patterns are just physical, right? Then shouldn't meteorologists be able to predict exactly what the weather is going to be forever? That's analogous to your framing of this with respect to neurology.
Just because things are made up of if>then processes it doesn't mean they lack complexity.
53:02 vegan idk is literally the same thing. You just wish everyone else felt the same way about animals as you? Tf is this guy talking about? Literally every moral debate is just about how someone feels about a thing. This wasn’t a math debate…
I think it's a bad argument to say every miscarriage would need to be investigated as a potential homicide because we don't treat every death of an elderly person, or even just people who are up in age, as a potential homicide. Even though it's very possible that a person who dies of a heart attack could have been given something to induce a heart attack for instance. Deaths are only investigated for suspicious circumstances and so we could assume miscarriages would not be considered suspicious since they are a natural process, the same way we don't investigate when an older person dies from natural causes. But maybe we should probably investigate more deaths of the elderly because it seems like a lot aren't idk.
Edit: Oh, if I listened a little longer the other guy mentions this.
The issue with that is that old folks have people there watching them die so we have enough of an accounting to what led up to it to not need an autopsy
I think the rationale is that if you know you had sex and you don’t put the utmost effort in preventing a miscarriage then we could treat that are killing by negligence. Basically not doing what’s necessary to keep your baby alive. If you volunteer to go be in the hospital after every sexual encounter to be monitored that would almost entirely wipeout any miscarriages to probably a very small percentage I’m guessing the thought is
@@stevepenn2582 You can ignore the old folks home and look at any old person that just dies in their home. The paramedics would do a basic examination of the body, write some cause of death and that would be the end of it unless they found something suspicious. They don't send in police to search the house for poison and interrogate the neighbors/family members unless there's a good reason to think it might be murder.
You can do the exact same thing with miscarriages. Maybe ask the woman if she knows of any reason the miscarriage might have happened and if she says "no" then that's basically it. Unless a family member or something comes in saying she may have intentionally poisoned the baby and then maybe you'd investigate more seriously.
"we don't treat every death of an elderly person, or even just people who are up in age, as a potential homicide."
Because you wouldn't have probable cause. And you establish that by sending the body to forensics or going to the place where the elderly person died and checking for sus shit.
So SOMETHING is done, there is ALWAYS some level of investigation when someone dies and is processed by the system.
The conclusion is that there will always be some form of investigation after a miscarriage if we were to say that those fetuses deserve moral consideration. So yeah, every miscarriage would be a potential homicide or murder by negligence idk how that's called.
@@fran13r If the paramedics don't find anything unusual they'll just write some cause of death and that will be the end of it.
They don't bring police in to search the home for poison or interrogate the family members unless there's already reason to suspect the person was murdered.
For a miscarriage the level of investigation would be the doctor asking the woman a few questions unless you had something extreme come up like a family member claiming she intentionally killed the baby. Then maybe the police would get involved and investigate further.
And this is PERFECTLY reasonable considering how common unavoidable miscarriages are. Even for criminal negligence you usually need to fuck up BIG TIME to actually do time for it. Like leaving your baby alone for 2 days to go party.
Something benign like staying up late as a pregnant woman would never qualify. Maybe heavy drinking or doing drugs would which I think is already illegal.
Bro this guy trying to diagnose and psycho analyze the system of whoever is talking every five seconds was the most cringe annoying shit I’ve ever heard “well actually your a moral egoist so basically no” “actually you’re a subjectivist” like dude took one psych class and thinks he’s become god lol
Also I have never heard of a Christian vegan who says that god wants us to be vegans that was an insane plot twist