Destiny 2 Lore - Ok... Let's talk about what we know about The Veil & Lightfall's Ending Cutscenes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- Destiny 2's Lore and Story from Lightfall tells us surprisingly little about The Veil, a central part of the plot which informs a lot of what happens in the Final Ending Cutscene of the expansion. Today I'm going to be going through what lore we know about The Veil and I'll be working to try and explain a little more about what the game tells us about the ending to Lightfall.
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I wanna give props to the VA for Osiris during the "Get your ghost out of there" part. The panic and desperation in his voice while he tries to stop what's happening over comms is so visceral.
and all 3 people there just sat back and watched your ghost slowly move up
@@tonybadaboni to be fair if i was the guardian id be confused as well. we just defeated a disciple of the witness and possibly won the war, when all of a sudden my ghost just starts floating to the veil and im instructed to shoot and destroy the very thing that helped me get this far. on top of this id possibly assume the ghost is going to go scan and explain to us what the veil is. our character goes through so much confusion just as nimbus and caital do, trying to figure out what the hells happening and why osiris is freaking out that we just dont have enough time to react, and enough will to make the shot.
@@vultionsin3028 we could've just grabbed it with strand lol
@@DustoVonSusto froze it w stasis, even
Hes an isreali actor he played the maji in the mummy movies and star fleet commander in star trek discovery. Hes pretty good
despite the let down of not really getting any of our questions answered, I did enjoy the fact that our guardian actually had a significant amount of dialogue this in this campaign.
That was defo my favourite part of the whole thing when the guardian at the beginning of the penultimate mission was just like 'Pull your effing fingers out and get to work' starts domming everybody, bossing everyone around like an Alpha Chad haha.
I’m pretty sure that calus was sent to the veil to die. I think the witness needed a ghost or something that a guardian could provide so he sent calus knowing we would follow. The first cutscene where our ghost was possessed I think was fully on purpose. Whenever the witness speaks to us it’s always on purpose. I think we got used the entire campaign and did exactly what the witness wanted us to do
You don’t need to know you’re giving consent to give consent after all
that's exactly how I'm feeling - the witness is a paracausal being of unknown power after all. its schemes have evaded us on almost every occasion we've encountered them - we only prevail against the witness' followers, which only grants it's knowledge of the witness rather than actually impacting it in any way. it always feels easy to just assume the guardians are 'built different', but being played by the witness is both very possible and very very very cool
That’s a possibility, but I feel like they should’ve revealed to us that we were used. Otherwise we just think bungie botched the story.
I was thinking calus was bait too. If it's true, the witness is a better manipulator than savathuun
@@starplatinum2743 Well that wouldn't be a surprise. The Witness has been playing Savathun from the beginning after all, and she didn't realize the deception until we showed her.
I really hope they use the veil more throughout the coming seasons so we can actually learn what it truly does and what the actual link thing with the traveler is
I hopw not. That would eman bungoenitnentiaonlly didnt let us know to save it for fute seasons which is jsut terrible
Edit: ill leav the old because its funny but heres what i was saying. I hope not. That would mean bungie intentionally didnt let us know to save it for future seasons which is just terrible.
I hope not cause seasons get vaulted so if I miss a season I’m fucked
They definitely will
@@cbandit7715 At the same time. They've done this throughout almost all expansions with similar things and events.
@@cbandit7715 yeah it's a pretty dirty trick from Bungie but it's better to explain it to us than to just leave us in the dark without saying anything about the lore
The veils radiance reminds me most of the psychedelic nine or celestial awoken themes. I think whatever it is it’s some form of tertiary force, a bridge or keyhole that took both light and dark to use, dark from Calus and light from our ghost
“The line is so very thin” - veils are thin
“Stand on that line, and look up” - Savathun
“Think of our universe as a set of coins stacked one on top of another”
- Petra
I think we can guess at least that the witness is trying to access a higher plane of existence, maybe the top one.
...remember how ahamkara can also see that they are within a game?
what if the Witness wants to bring the Final Shape to our reality?
@@cosmoscenti5173and Savathun may be in our world - lore of the deluxe edition implied she was seeking a way here, or a different ordinally superior world in her death
He is probably going to the garden where light n dark were formed.
As of right now I'm thinking of the veil as a sort of translator between the dark and light forces, and it allowed the witness to commune with the traveler
The equilateral triangle is a well-known Deity symbol that has been used by nearly every religion since Ancient Egyptian times. The addition of a complete circle is said to represent unity. As a whole, the symbol represents creation within the circle of eternity - it symbolizes life itself
My thought is that: the Witness' directions for Calus to destroy the Veil were to ensure that, after it had used the Veil to create the portal, no one else (that is, us) would be able to follow it in order to interfere. Fortunately for us, Calus wasn't able to carry out those orders, so we still have a shot
I’m of the mind that the Witness expect Calus to fail so that it could use our ghost at the most opportune time near the veil. Sending Calus to the veil ensures that either the guardian would beat him there or that Calus and the guardian would meet him there
Makes sense witness doesn't need Calus. Calus is a bafoon and he was being used.
Maybe we can close the portal using the veil, and that’s why the witness wanted it destroyed but we do not know how to do that yet
@@theyincorporated5711 I agree, I suspect Calus was just a tool to get the Guardian, or more specifically Ghost to the Veil so it could function as the connection between the Veil and the Traveler.
Without Calus there, the Guardian wouldn't need to go there.
I mean with zero explanation Osiris said we couldn't follow him in anyway so I don't think that's the case
Calus was the ultimate bait to get us to the veil. Witness gave him everything he thought he wanted knowing he would be a sacrifice.
Still lame they killed him off so easily, could've have been more content for the future.
That's what I was thinking, especially because thanks to Nezarec's Whisper we know that Disciples of the Witness are typically given a Lubrean glaive to wield as a weapon.
You know which Disciple does NOT wield a glaive? Calus. I think if the Witness expected Calus to actually succeed in his endeavors, it would have given Calus a glaive- as Rhulk and Nezarec before him.
@@r3mxd Alot of people in destiny 2 who played since start are bound to disagree with you. Me included.
been thinking that as well, witness was clearly just manipulating calus into doing his dirty work.
@@archivesEris Didnt rhulk give the glavies? Isnt he bitchclapped already?
Something I noticed starting my second playthrough of the campaign is; Osiris does not seem to actually know what it is, at some point in the second mission, either in direct conversation with him or during the mission itself he says; "His pursuit of this object, the veil, is of dire importance if he gets to it first..." and then later, after Saint-14 calls him, he says; "We don't know what Calus and the Witness want, but if it will have an effect on us all... I -- I can't allow that to happen." So from my understanding Osiris doesn't know what the Veil actually is, all he knows is that the Witness wants it so it MUST be important, and if the Witness wants it then we have to stop him or else something bad could happen to all of us.
Thats exactly the point everyone seems to be missing in their criticism. The point was never to figure out what the Veil was or did it was to stop The Witness from getting it. We get hints at what it does through: it giving us the ability to see and interact with Strand and it being used to power the CloudArk. But its not like the Cloud Striders really knew what it was either, nothing indicated they or Osiris did. The Cloud Striders are just protectors of Neomuna. Osiris saw that The Witness wanted the Veil and The Witness is the enemy, so we have to stop them from getting it.
@@LowSkillPlays no one knows what the veil is and they kept that mystery very well. Finally i found people who actually listened to the story and understood what was this dlc point. Defend the veil, at all cost
@@LowSkillPlays It baffles me that so many people have suddenly become experts in narrative, while the plot itself has been overlooked...
Wish that kinda sentiment was more apparent throughout the campaign. Ik the Saint line comes from walking into the hall of heroes which other fireteam members can trigger making it missable
@@BetaMind That is a fair point to be sure but I would imagine Byf and other lore masters in the community wouldn't rush ahead through that stuff or even have their fireteam members do that. Especially when you can play through the campaign 3 times and hear that stuff 3 times.
I find it worth mentioning that in post campaign dialogue with Osiris and Season of Defiance dialogue with Mara Sov, both characters mention a "meeting of primordial light and dark" while referring to two completely different events. Osiris is talking about the portal at the Traveller, while Mara is talking about the creation of the Distributary during the collapse. I think this also gives a better picture of what the Witness possibly did to the Traveller.
makes alot of sense
who knows what the distributary is the, I've never even heard that and ive played the game for 8 years
@@colinfahey4234 the distributary was the place where Mara resided at when she was revived after the events of Taken King. We visited her there weekly during Forsaken in the Dreaming City after the campaign. It was her own throneworld if I remember correctly
@@CoFiCH91 no, the Distributary is the reality the Awoken originally hailed from. It resulted from a singularity created when the colony ship carrying the original Awoken was attacked by a Pyramid during the Collapse. Mara's Throneworld is something different
@@SiniusAZM I could have sworn we enter that area when we go see Mara during Forsaken, no?
It's crazy to think that Nezarec was a key factor in creating the exos because if you think about it their D.E.R. was intended by Nezarec to sow more suffering within them. He knew that they would have issues with not feeling human and believing they are a walking corpse and I believe that only fed his power. Crazy stuff.
I didn’t even think about that but you’re absolutely right. Not to mention Clovis basically created pain wherever he walked. If you read the lab notebook lore from Europa’s collectibles you can just see a few example of it. Wild stuff. I’ve got to wonder what other knock of effects this created that might’ve been part of Nezarec’s grand design if it does exist.
Off the top of my head, else being turned into the stranger… repeatedly looping through time and seeing failure after failure… it’s really making me question what Nezarec’s relationship to timelines is.
@@MynameisByf very good point. I think there will be a lot revealed in the upcoming raid and beyond. I’m so ready for it!
I'm not much of a Lore buff, however regarding Exos dont they also have a recurring dream of endless battle? Some walk through a field of flowers, but disregarding the peaceful scene that is we may want to look into the nightmares that impose our Exo friends.
Not to mention that Cayde, in his final stashes on Titan during the Ace of Spades Exotic quest, mentioned in his entry about the Deep Stone Crypt a "long slow whisper". Would that have ties to Nezerac, as the primary way we hear his dialog are through whispers. What if the Exos are being used as a conduit for further power akin to tributes to a worm god.
@@MynameisByfon the topic of the exos vs the neomuni cloudark:
there was a line by the neomuni archivist that said she could try to explain the philosophy behind strand and how we can use it to repair the cloud strider memorials or she could let us go kill stuff, specifically she mentions the philosophy of the unconscious mind. essentially, the setup of the unconscious mind states that in the same way humans physically have evolved to all have the same body plan, all humans have evolved to have the same "plan" of the mind, everything you do on instinct is driven by the unconscious mind that all humans share.
the thing that requires clarification is that its very often misinterpreted to mean that all humans psychically connect to the same subconscious which is not what it actually means, saying that all humans have the same unconscious mind is like saying that all humans in existence physically all share the same left arm, left leg, right arm, right leg, torso etc etc, its a fundamental misunderstanding, we all have a body in the same way we all have an unconscious mind.
however, what alot of stories like to do in order to set up their own version of the paranormal is to pretend that "actually yes, there is the objective physical world and the subjective/internal world (the unconscious mind), theres the one we experience and sense and touch; and connected to it is the one we think and feel and dream, they are both intertwined, they can both interact with each other, they can seep into one another but they are both unique, individual and equally "real".
what the veil seems to be is the thing that connects the light and the darkness together (as osiris said the light deals with the physical and darkness deals with the... not physical? I guess the word would be abstract or maybe intangible? lets just go with psychic to avoid a headache), its like the interface between the body and the mind. We know it is related to the light because the ghost says it feels like the traveller (although unfortunately thats all we know about its relation to the light, I guess you could include that it was somehow linked to the radial mast "light artefact" whatever the fuck that was but at the very least we know that the veil "has" light) and, if we take the view that the darkness is destiny's take on the "domain of the unconscious mind", then we know that the veil is linked to the darkness because it is used to hold up the neomuna cloudark; the reason the people of neptune dont get the same issues we know exos have is because their minds are directly linked to an anchor point between the physical and psychic universes. it would also go on to explain how the vex mind integrated into the cloudark described at the end of the winterbite glaive quest (you know, a member of a race of unfeeling entirely calculation and deterministic "organic-ish" robots) sends us a message expressing GRATITUDE when we keep it safe from the other vex trying to "rescue" it (I should clarify, the quest seems to indicate the mind likes independence which on its own is strange and probably worth a byf video on its own but essentially it didnt want to be "rescued" by the other vex) if a vex mind is expressing gratitude then it must be emotive somehow, atleast extremely unique in ways we cant understand... or we wouldnt be able to understand if it wasnt for the fact that this specific vex mind is integrated into the same network propped up by the psychic energy of the veil. remember how the sol divisive vex under the influence of the witness began to worship the black heart and the darkness? I think this vex mind in the cloudark is an indication as to what would happen to the vex in the black garden if the witness never influenced them, they would attempt to understand the darkness and eventually would develop a "classic/psychic/feeling" mind as this vex in the cloudark has.
unfortunately the only way this hypothetical view brings us any closer to understanding what the witness was trying to do is that if it needed to cross the barrier between the physical domain and the unconsious domain (whatever THAT might mean in the destiny universe) then doing what it did in the lightfall campaign seems to make some small semblance of sense. anyway, I dont know if any of this actually made sense, the only reason I know about it is because I played the game control and tried to understand the philosophy behind that and in that game its alot more explicitly an example of a "physical/unconscious" story but I hope this was an interesting read anyway
@@fawkyou2001 Essentially it boils down the the classic Mind/Body problem.
Entire schools of philosophy, and numerous Religion's theology to some extent, are based on different arguments ( more or less a philosophical interpretation of the "solution") for this.
Intergeneration of it as metanarrative in Destiny is not something I had considered.
Great thinking there.
Darkness is the Mind and Light is the Body.
The Traveller's physical form (Golfball of the gods) is comprised of the Light.
Ghosts are comprised of the Traveller's Light, meaning they are literally part of it's Body.
The Veil is comprised of Darkness that "feels" like the Traveller to Ghost, likely indicating that The Veil is the Traveller's Mind.
It's possible that The Traveller is both Gardener and Winnower, Body and Mind.
The Witness being named as such, likely indicates they Witnessed the reality behind the story of the Flower Game in the Garden.
There may even be seperate compartmentalised incarnations of both Both and Mind.
Now that I think about it, the Vex use the honorific of Mind for their bosses. Sufficiently powerful Vex Minds create simulations that can be manifested into reality.
There's definitely something to this Mind/Body connection you've brought up.
Perhaps we can attempt to connect the various races, bosses and characters to philosophical and theological scools of thought.
Especially if they attempt to resolve the Mind/Body problem or are built upon the basis of such attempts.
Anyone else felt some type of way when going down the stairs to the “Ishtar Collective” mission? Man that hit me right in the 2014/15.
I took my time and navigated the stairs to get down to the bottom. I could have just jumped and landed safely but I just felt that urge to run down the stairs. The overall area though gave me mad Portal 2 vibes. Like I was going down from the pristine and clean facility down to the forgotten depths.
10000% I said out loud to a room of no one "Man, I missed the Ishtar stuff. I hope we get more of this"
@@Lightna Glad I wasn't the only one :D
I felt Portal 2 vibes more than everything. Loved it.
I expected to be called Dr. Shim again lol
You've mentioned Nezarec potentially creating exos by proxy. This reminded me that exos constantly had nightmares of them killling their loved ones. This is right out of Nezarec's playbook
Regarding that first cutscene with the witness speaking through our ghost, my interpretation was that the witness knew we would be able to observe it. They were intentionally trying to manipulate us into getting close to the veil. Of greater question is our guardian’s reaction to seeing that. “Gosh the enemy can take over my ghost at will. Oh well, nothing to worry here. I’ll just say some comforting words.” Seriously, who would react like that?
To be fair to our Guardian, the Witness has been shown being able to possess our Ghost to speak to us since Shadowkeep.
I think that, given everything else that has happened since then and the number of other times we've seen our Ghost possessed ONLY to communicate with us, it may not be that surprising that we didn't consider the idea that our Ghost could be hijacked to be used for other things.
We were kind of stuck in an impossible situation. Caiatl had already been exhausted delaying her father, Osiris was in no position or condition to fight, and Nimbus was the only Cloudstrider left and would have been too critical for running other Neomunian defenses to have been fighting Calus.
It is implied that the Veil had something to do with the Witness being able to link to the ghost on Neomuna. Both times it happens is in close proximity to it. And there is a cutscene right before the Radial Mast mission where Osiris says he’s curious about the Veils influence on Ghosts. And then right before the Witness makes the link it is Osiris and radios in to get our ghost out of there like he had figured it out. So idk about it just being able to do it at will any time it’s happened the ghost has had to be near something, pyramids mostly before
12:15 - I think the order was link _first,_ then destroy afterwards. Witness wanted the Veil to enter the Traveler, but doesn't want it to be used afterwards to follow them.
That’s what I thought too. I think Nimbus saved our Ghost by grabbing him, and if he hadn’t, Ghost would have been destroyed by the Witness
Literally took the words out of my brain
Agreed, the dialogue in that first cutscene even says link the conduit and then destroy the veil.
I think the witness didn't need calus, but used him to lure us and more specifically our ghost to the veil. calus was the bait and we ate it
@@jacdag1152 the witness did Calus so dirty
I feel like the Witness’s plan with Calus was very Savathun level planning. All Calus ever was for the Witness was a pawn to entice us into the position it wanted us to be in. It knows we took down Savathun and one of its disciples Rhulk so it would have already know if Calus was a match for us or not.
It feels like we rushed in again and were tricked into playing the role just the same as we were tricked into giving Savathun her memories back.
Of course it tricked us. It’s plan all along was to use us to create the link it had already told the calus this we just hadn’t known what it meant yet.
Not rlly impressive, if you consider he could've linked the veil himself and solo everyone. The story is just broken af
@@UnknownUser-bk2kf he was keeping the traveler locked in place to prevent escape
@@AnimeTrap69 nah the pyramids did, also the whole solar system was surrounded
The "Last Days" lore book specifies that the CloudArk is just a virtual environment; the Neomuni's minds are still firmly within their bodies. It's even mentioned that going into the CloudArk with a hangover will make it last MUCH longer since your body processes are slowed down.
So its essentially like vrmmo's from stuff like SAO and BOFURI.
Its also implied that normally people aren't in the CloudARK Full-time, as Nimbus mentions the "Lockdown"
Having emergency bunkers with CloudARK access and Crypods not only keeps the people happier than just being in a bunker, but makes them easier to care for as they would require less nutrition/amenities.
Your body is in cryo/stasis when going into CloudArk (presumably). So it's not the CloudArk slowing you down, its what happens to your body when you enter. Their bodies/minds are still in the "main" dimension of reality.
As for the CloudArk... Nimbus, when seeing the Veil, said it looked like a prototype CloudArk, which tells us that The veil is a device/mechanism to detach/re-attach the physical from/to the non-physical. Where CloudArk works with mind/body... The natures of Light/Dark deal with life/death, or body/soul. Specifically, since guardians can be revived after decades/centuries/etc.... and they retain personality but not memories, we can presume this is a body/soul connection, as life/death are both still concepts within physical reality.
Given that the Witness has never been seeing PHYSICALLY interacting with anything, ever (it even floats as though it can't touch grass and cant walk), add to that, Darkness is to non-physical as Light is to physical. The veil, literally, would be the threshold between them. The veil was disconnected to the traveler, any by extension, The Witness. Which means the "doorway" only works one way, which creates paracausal imbalance on the side of the physical. I believe the Black Heart was probably not created by the Vex, and may have actually been created by Savathun to trick Nezaraec and the Witness using Worm God/Hive Magic. With it Destroyed, it's had to find other ways of corrupting/connecting to the Traveler, for the Final Shape... manifesting a physical presence and restoring balance. (Are we the baddies?).
Also, with the doorway "broken", it is possible that both Nezarec and Rhulk are "stuck" on our side of the veil, and can't go back to/communicate with The Witness. Dead, but not in the proper sense. They may be in a limbo-like state where they are physically dead but their essence can still be re-constituted into the same/another body (like how we can be rezzed by Ghosts). Analogous to how The Witness doesn't appear to be able to have physical body and must possess that which has an inherent connection to Darkness (including both us, and the Ghosts, but with the veil removed, not the traveler.... until it was linked back)
The portal is likely what will allow The Witness to ACTUALLY manifest in physical reality, as so far it seems to always be "trapped" being a "veil" of glass that it can't even shatter if it gets mad enough. The promotional clips/trailers also show that this glass seemingly holding The Witness back, eventually breaks. Connecting the Darkness to the Light through the veil itself
There is a line I got at the end of a mission that went into Calus' ship during one of the exotic missions, where Ghost said that they were still able to resurrect me, but he felt like the Traveler wasn't behind him as he did it. That the light was still here, just that it came from somewhere deeper
😲
What if the pale heart is the ghost?
Hear me out just a second, the witness in the end of WQ says that "your pale heart is the key" looming straight to the camera, looking at us, and the thing he uses to link the veil and the traveler is our ghost
We also have Jisu saying that the link between the veil and the traveler was made through the pale heart, the only other thing we know that interacted with the veil is our ghost
What if the ghost really is the key to all of this?
The Traveller's pale heart is the key to the Final Shape, it's not the key to get into the Traveller.
The Witness needs to Commune with The Traveller (partly done? totally done?) and then The Witness needs to drink the Light for the mural prophecy to come true.
The Ghosts came about due to the Collapse and The Witness so would not have been part of The Witness' plan prior to that.
Also Rhulk was shucking Ghosts trying to get the Light out of them and kept on being repelled by The Traveller, so it's not like The Witness wasn't able to get hold of Ghosts easily.
The Ghost was just The Witness' way to interact with the Veil, which then made the connection to The Traveller's Pale Heart allowing access to the interior of The Traveller and allow whatever is going to be on pause for the next 12 months to occur.
"Your pale heart holds the key"
Yep, thematically that seems to be exactly what they’re going for. That entire cutscene with the ghost feeling strange and being taken over by the witness that seems like the obvious answer. I have no lore knowledge but from a layman who’s seen a lot of sci fi stories this makes the most sense.
imagine the 'Pale Heart' is oryx's ravenous heart
Can you imagine if Witch Queen ended right after you get shot out of Savathun's ship? Like, Ghost revives you after you're face down in the dirt, you tell Ikora that the Hive Knight you fought had the Light, and then a huge Bungie disclaimer pops up like, "Witch Queen's campaign will continue in the next season!"
That's what Lightfall feels like to me, sadly. Like some wild Adam-West-Batman era advert pops up saying, "Same Witch Queen time, same Witch Queen channel!"
I’m trying to imagine
What do you mean? We literally finish the campaign and have very little idea why the worm familiar was such a big deal. All we know is it unlocked a memory. It's a literal mcguffin just like the veil. I had studied everything there was to know about the hive, it's my fave part of the lore. Hell, I've read stuff to my kids on it. We knew almost nothing of value until the exotic gl mission.
It wasn't until that quest that we actually understand why the worm familiar had so much power, knowledge and was such a big deal for doing what it did to Savvy.
But hey, it wouldn't be the Destiny community if we didn't praise a thing one day, then hate it the next. Sadly, Byf has fallen into this same trap.
@@Real28 1000% the truth!!!
@@Real28 But there's no mission for Lightfall that explains what the Veil is. Ontop of that, the worm was not that integral to the story of Witch Queen, whereas the Veil is what everybody wants and some people know what it is but never explain it.
I agree that the community has issues with their criticisms, but I think in this case its justified. We don't get a clue to what it did to the Traveler.
@@Real28 sure, you have points, but there's backing lore that explains all that stuff, the worm familiar is talked about in the books of Sorrow, no such thing exists in lightfall. You're gaslighting people while being well aware that there are answers to your questions, you just don't want to acknowledge them because it weakens your point
If it is true that Nezarac is at least partially responsible for the creation of the exo via the influence of Clovis Bray, I wonder if the collective dream that exo have where they march toward a tower, killing an army of those that they know and love is also the doing of Nezarac.
This would connect to Nezarec's desire for pain, being forced to kill everyone you know in a dream, including your family and loved ones, is one of the worst pains I can think of.
Yes and the deep slow whisper
It would be cool if we could fight inside the dream.
A race towards that tower dhunde chasing a moving boss
I'm not sure if disciples of the witness gain power by "following their nature" the way hive gods do. However, if they do, the creation of the Exos would be a tribute farm bigger than when savathun tricked us into killing her daughter every 3 weeks in the dreaming city.
This was the first thing I thought of, the fact that they all dream, and for so many it's a nightmare.
Interesting note on comparing the CloudArk citizens to Exo’s. I think a notable difference though is that for exo’s the human body was entirely separated, whereas the neomunians are seemingly in pods that are connecting them. That link to their physical bodies could make a fundamental difference in the experience between how the mind is perceiving the experience. A transmission of the mind as opposed to the displacement of the mind perhaps. Just my thoughts 😅
So similar to a full dive vr rig like from sword art online where the mind is active in a vr space while the body is in a semi comatose state
Totally agree, the Neomuni are in The Matrix
Their digital bodies are not directly replacing their bodies.
The Lore Book for Neomuna covers the evacuation of some of the Neomuni to The CloudArk
So um The Matrix?
And I’d bet that your thoughts are correct. That’s exactly what I was thinking when he was explaining DER. This case is not disassociative, it’s more of like astral projecting. An out of body experience of sorts but, you mind is still connected to your body. I’m sure enough trauma to your body would pull your mind out of the cloud arc.
He did mention that EXOs use/used? Vex fluids. Perhaps they, having worshipped the Black heart, which in turn was an imperfect copy, are corrupted so to say. Like, the Neomuni are using the power of the veil directly. A pure, untainted, transfer. Just at thought.
The news caster using the term pale heart is absolutely insane considering the Witness said that in a cutscene that no player or NPC in the D2 universe was present for...
Jisu Calerondo = the Witness, or another Witness' disciple -OR- the final boss of the hew raid XD
I think we were supposed to understand from the broken-glass transmission to Calus that our ghost picks up communications from the Witness, even ones we're not apparently supposed to actually receive. Maybe the Witness actually wants us to receive those and is playing mind games, but I think a possibility is also that although it can take control of our ghost, it might not be able to stop our ghost from picking up its communications...
I mean Osiris calls Strand by its proper name before we know literally anything about it having to do with ties, connections or tethers so, with all the respect in the world, I'm not giving the writing team too much credit this expansion.
@@chirpynsleepy958 I took that as Osiris just coming up with a name for it, could be wrong tho
My first thought of what the veil was, based on the shape, was that it was a Light-matured Tree of Silver Wings. The key we made to get in to the Black Garden also required a Seed of Silver Wings.
The traveller grew from a seed, much like the other paracausal beings, the ahamkara, pyramids...etc... those are the seeds the gardener planted before the universe and found their way into the universe as the gardener and winnower fought before the universe. A seed will be needed in the recreated garden that exists before / instead of our universe / reality.
Not sure if anyone else noticed or mentioned it. The portal The Witness created looks eerily similar to the strange "eye" like decorations Savathun's halls had. Just minus the eye, but the coloration and pattern looked similar to me.
I hope I'm not the only one who realized, that if Nezarac was involved with the creation of the Exos, we're in MASSIVE trouble, since he could theoretically use the Exos as a backdoor into the Tower.
OMG
Someone needs to bring a nezerec related artifact to the k1 anomaly
It seems that he already has. Exos have always reported having strange or even scary dreams. We know that Nezarac probably doesn't intent to kill everything, but make it suffer, so maybe the dreams are enough for him in the current time.
Dude! I swear during Season of the Lost I would hear whispers at the Speakers old chamber!
@@gackolpz the recurring dreams of exos were small flashes of their past resets where they fought the vex at Europa whenever Clovis opened the vex gate back at the golden age. We already cleared that in Beyond Light.
An important note is that Ghost likens the presence of the veil to that of the traveler indicating it to be a source of immense para-causal light and the fact that it’s basically glowing violet indicates of it being primarily Void. This is important for two reasons. After the light fall campaign 5 capsule will appear around where Osiris stand in Neomun with each capsul holding a different para-causal element, interacting with one of these capsuls will give a recording of Osiris describing what the contained element is. The important one in this case is Void where Osiris describes it as the cosmic distortion of space and gravity, which would explain why it is believed that the witness created a worm hole. Another thing is Psion psychic energy comes out as void and consider the Cloud Ark has people link their minds to it, it could explain it as being a massive Psychic network. Though that’s what I got from what I can gather.
you were able to interact with those before completing the campaign.
Noted
I literally finished the campaign, and said to myself … “ I wish I knew Byf personally, so he can tell me what just happened”
I would like to put out there a few things: First of all, in the Deterministic Chaos quest, the image that ghost first finds while following Rohan's trail is an "hourglass" which fits way too well with how the veil looks like from top to bottom. (The top is a semicircle and in the final phase of fighting calus it moves to make a matching semicircle) And this image is mentioned to be a reference to be plans for a second veil.
For a second thing, at the end of the mentioned Civil News report in the video, Jisu mentions that the Veil *linked to the traveler's pale heart.* Possibly that big ball in the sky *is* the pale heart.
"the image that ghost first finds while following Rohan's trail is an "hourglass""
1) Go to Europa
2) Go to Bray Exoscience
3) Look at symbols all along the Wall. You will see a lot of Hourglasses, Brains and Eyeballs!
4) Profit!
For extra credit... Look at the "Simulation: Safeguard" symbol!
So…the Traveler itself is the heart?
Linked to the Traveler's remains*
The Veil + Traveler = Pale heart
I think the Witness is looking for the Pale Heart which is insinde the Traveler and the Veil is just a Way to open the Portal to "a Dimension inside the Traveler" where he can get the Pale Heart for whatever Reason he wants it.
The hourglass shape is often how the Einstein-Rosen bridge is imagined, as the ER essentially "pinches" space-time at a central point of negative energy before expanding it in a different location, allowing travel between two different points in space-time
My first impressions of the Witness' intentions were that he was only using Calus. This feels hard to explain but bare with me...
We learned from Caital's cutscene that he was nothing and became so hungry for the power of the darkness so I can imagine the witness lured him into his ranks only to use him. The Witness as we were told (or so I believe) was always one step ahead of us, so he used Calus to 'attack' The Veil (Calus wouldn't have been told all the details I presume) and so that we go in WITH our ghosts to stop him so then the Witness can take over and use our ghost to Activate The Veil and so on.
I kind of think of this as a Lord Palpatine moment with Count Dooku and Anakin in Revenge of the Sith... kind of kick-arse if you ask me! Still doesn't explain what The Veil is but I think that was a wicked aspect of it making my first impressions pretty decent!
There's also the fact that in that first bit where Ghost projects the conversation between the Witness and Calus the Witness states that it wants the Veil destroyed. However seeing as Rohan destroys the Radial Mast before it can be used this leads me to think that the Witness has had to fall back on 'Plan B' so to speak. It couldn't link the Radial Mast with the Veil to destroy it so he had to use our Ghost to go through the Veil to do it personally.
I had a similar idea. Perhaps for the Veil to work, you need something of the Traveller with a connection to The Witness… perhaps that is why they gave us the power of stasis… to have a connection to our ghost
@@S3Cs4uN8 actually yeah that sounds very likely!
Makes me think back to when we accidentally hear a message from witness to calus, and we hear about their plans and the radial mast. Was it all on purpose to manipulate the guardian and lure us to an unwinnable battle? I think so, the radial mast was just a giant supression device and if we didnt have strand and Caitl's help we would have lost. Its strange that the witness can just take control of our ghosts why not just keep ghost from reviving us when we die 😅
@@Cptnutshack11 Yes, that is such a great point!
When you realize the cutscene at 7:08 was meant for us to see. Calus was used as bait so we'd bring our ghost right up next to the Veil.
We bought The Witness' lie hook line and sinker without ever questioning WHY they were using OUR ghost to talk to Calus.
This explains the campaign a lot more. The witness knew calus was stupid and selfish enough to do anything it said for power and recognition.
He died being played like a fiddle.
I agree with your diversion theory, it's what the story seems to imply.
It's poetic that Emperor Calus, who sees himself above everyone else, is used as an expendable tool of the Witness.
And it's not even out of character for the Witness to treat their disciples like that. After all Rhulk, the First Disciple, had effectively fallen from the Witness' graces due to his failures and arrogance resulting in him being made to babysit Savathun, someone who was ironically enough responsible for some of those failures to begin with. Given the nature of Rhulk's messages in the post-raid mission inside the Pyramid it does seem like the Witness just cast Rhulk aside and was otherwise ignoring him.
Something I haven't seen anyone bring up yet is that the veil looks like a giant eyeball. You initially see the top part - the glowing hole looking thing that sort of is like an iris. Then when you fight Calus beneath it, it has "roots" descending from it that are fairly reminiscent of the veins / optic nerve / whatever that you have attaching your eyes into your head. Made me initially think of the Eye Of Cthulhu from Terraria when I first saw it. Am I the only one who thinks it looks similar to an eyeball?
😳😳
I saw a jellyfish
My first thought was that I kinda looked Awoken
Considering how biblically correct angels work, yes, it is indeed an eye
I like it, Byf. You're brutally honest but very respectful, and no one can blame you for that. They must remember, the honesty comes from wanting what you enjoy to succeed.
Personally I think that the Veil might have something to do with connecting and weaving together the material and the meta-physical. Since it seems to be simply “paracausal” and leans toward neither the Light or the Dark. I mean when you go up to each of those containers holding a pure form of each paracausal force we’ve discovered, as well as throughout the campaign it is constantly pointed out that Light relates to the physical and Darkness to the meta-physical. “The line between light and dark is so very thin”; that line might have been spoken by Uldren and others to point out the moral ambiguity of the two forces but perhaps it is also a sort of hidden message from the Destiny writing team to us players. Light and Dark are two sides of the same coin and that coin is very thin. Thin as fabric. Thin as a veil. The Veil is the coalescence of where the two forces meet. It is the coin. The line that separates and connects. To have power over it is to the have the power to control the line between the physical and the meta physical. Between Light and Dark. To weave them together and allow the truest form of communion between these two opposing forces.
The Final Shape...
You know, at this rate I'm half expecting The Veil to be an oversized wedding veil for The Witness's girlfriend for something.
Another theory I developed after playing through the campaign three times…. Watching that final cutscene with the Witness when he opens the gateway and carefully listening to his dialogue.
The thing that stood out most to me is how he spoke to the traveler as if he empathized for the situation the universe had led him into… where according to the Witness, the “You (the Traveler) more than any suffer both fates. Be free.”
I feel when he says that it almost sounds as if the Witness either cares about the Traveler… or has some kind of emotional connection to him. I say that because especially at the end of that statement “Be free”…. It really doesn’t sound like something you would say to a endless lifetime enemy…. But instead something you would say to a loved one as you lost them or had to let them go.
Does it sound like that to any of you?
If the witness is somehow related to the winnower, then from their perspective it’s easy to understand, the gardener wanted to create life to see it develop independently from the final shape, and the winnower only wanted that which can exist by itself, so when the gardener made itself a law in the game, they were bound to give the “power from heterodoxy”, thus the witness (winnower) wanted to free the traveler from that, to restore the balance of the game
I feel like since the traveler embodies the light, it is tied to the axioms of the light,much like how Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath are tied to their nature and can not deviate. Maybe the traveler has no choice in fleeing or blessing worlds because it is bound to the principles of the light.
Considering that Savathun and Nexarec have something to do with the veil, it's highly likely that the raid, and possibly a future season will have them telling us what they did with the Veil, and more on what it is.
the next couple seasons are definitely going to tell us more about the story they even said in the TWAB that we will learn more about the plans of the witness. "know that this is just the beginning of the next year of storytelling that will connect the events of Lightfall and The Final Shape. We can’t wait for the community to learn more about The Witness’s origins, its objective, and the ways we can thwart it and its disciples throughout Season of the Deep, as well as Seasons 22 and 23 later this year." which it seems every content creator Ive watched decided to ignore and/or not comment on
@@killertaz2099 the issue does not really come form the fact the veil won't be explained. Because everyone is very much aware it will.
This however means that the veil does not really hold significance in any way other than the fact our enemies wan to do something with it. This in itself is already somewhat of a problem as you will fail to really convey to the player any sense of urgency to their objective.
More problematically, the entire cast acts and speaks as if they understand the ramifications, what the veil is, and what the witness wants to do with it.
Again, I can point to mass effect 1 to see how this can be handled. For most of the game you do not know jack shit about the conduit, other than your nemesis is going after it as well. Most of your actions are spurred by the knowledge form the beacon flashbacks that failure would mean the end of the Galaxy, so you are aware of the danger.
However over the course of the story you learn more more details about it and breadcrumbs by breadcrumbs end up figuring out what exactly is happening.
The cloud striders would have knowledge about the fact the veil is being used as a means to allow their city to exist, but why would they know about it's ability to link to the traveler, or that the radial mast was nessesarry fot it? Or even, why would Osiris know about ANY OF THIS?
He just came out of the season of the seraph knowing there was a city on Neptune and they the veil existed and was a source of paracausal energy, that is it. It's entirely acceptable even to have us learn and speculate on its function and totally guess wrong what it actually is.
I really really like that you can actually learn important lore stuff by hanging around Neomuna and listening to what they have to say; it's a good thing to reward exploration and playtime in a new destination with actually relevant story details.
If Nezarec is connected to the Exos, could that mean that “the whisper” that shows up in Exo dreams be Nezarec itself?
That might explain why the neomuna people are more stable then exos
Another question, anyone try Lament yet. It is after all, related to one the Banshee who was the original model for Clovis himself.
How is nezarec connected to exos?
@Marcus Grell Nezerec indirectly told Clovis to build exos, it is in the video near the end. Basically the K1 crew went insane because of Nezerec and told Clovis to build the exos. And Clovis used darkness and vex milk to do so, which have dark properties like Nezerec and the exo dreams as stated above which are reportedly sometimes about them killing all their loved ones, which is a very nezerec thing to project into people's minds.
What are these whispers that are being talked about? I feel like I’m missing a huge piece
Byf you are why I was excited for light fall, when you tell the lore it just makes it a lot easier to take in and relaxing to listen to
Suspect season of the deep will likely involve the return of Savathun considering "the deep" tends to be used in hive related lore to refer to the darkness and well Savathun is probably the only one that would know anything about The Witness and The Veil that we could possibly persuade to talk.
God I hope so
There's also theories floating around right now that 'The Deep' might also be a bit more literal - The new Exotic Glaive lore entry suggests that there's something on Titan that opposes the Witness and must be protected at all costs. People are taking and running with the theory is that it's a new Leviathan (the creature from Fundament, not the ship).
Savathun and guardians will be an allies.
i think it will tie into his sister since she is supposed to be around rn
Data mined SPOILER:
Season of the deep will take place on Titan. Paraphrasing here, but the description for the season has something to do with "resurrecting an old enemy of the darkness"
I think the veil is an amplifier for paracausal power. Which explains why the witness needed it to create the portal instead of doing that right at the start of the campaign when he was already at the traveler. Also explains why he would need to link to the veil to boost his power. When it comes to him wanting to destroy the veil he tells calus “link the radial mast and see the veil destroyed” meaning create the link the and after the portal is open destroy the veil which supports the paracausal amplifier theory because the last thing the witness needs are for the guardians to amplify their paracausal powers.
All the Vex, Cloudark, Exos and Nezarec has got me wonder if the Deep Stone Crypt Nightmare Exos go through is actually Nezarec tormenting them by sending visions of their loved ones hurting them.
Cayde did mention something about a “Long, slow, whisper” during the ace quest. Those seem to be a theme of Nezarec.
@@MrBulbo-oz1es Goddamn, that's a really good point!
I think the veil could be two things.
1. It connects to the original garden where the Traveler and Winnower were at the start of the universe. By changing the set pieces in the game of life, the Witness could get the Final Shape via sword logic (doing what Oryx couldnt). The elements of the traveler spawning folliage when it blasted the Witness and the mystical folliage seen in the raid teaser makes me think this is likely
2. It could be a source of light and dark
Hear me out. And I hope this theory gets a bigger look. If the vex where trying to make something like the veil, the black heart. Maybe the veil is something like the brain of the traveler or that kind of dynamic instead. Like the Egyptians thought the brain was useless and the heart was in control instead. The vex tried to create what they thought was the control of the traveler, a heart, thats why they failed, the veil is like a brain. It did kind of look like a brain ngl. The witness would have severed the link from the traveler to the veil, "paralyzing it" so it can enter it. Yet still being alive hence it still powering neomuna. This is my theory.
@@joshlisiecki8702the witness said “your pale heart holds the key”, the key to what? A link to the traveler?
Danm such great theories! so totally packed with info. You players need to stop coping and find a new game because this fInAl sHaPe, sOuRcE oF lIgHt aNd dArK & gAmE oF lIfE bullshit is just being made up on the spot.
Regardless of how this god awful saga ends it will be tragic and disappointing and not what people expected and wont satisfy majority of people (everyone apart from the bungie bootlickers that love bungie because they give out pride emblems) but maybe the gameplay will be decent..meh
like i say its going to be a shitty generic hero goes ooga booga and saves the day ending where noone dies, noone close to us does anything and then what?? theyve said this is just the end..so the game continues somehow so clearly itll just be the same tower and social spaces unaffected by world ending events with shaxx still standing there but maybe well get another tree!! They are going to end the saga in the most pathetic unimpactful way and us as players are just going to continue doing strikes etc because the story is 2nd though to gameplay to bungie and it always has been
@@Khqraso don’t play it
@@Khqra where did that rant get you? Do you feel satisfied?
Just kept watching the backlog of Byf videos grow as I tried to finish the campaign, glad I can dig in now :D
My personal opinion: Lightfall is the nice, soft, underhand baseball pitch. While Final Shape will be the grand slam homerun. I don’t think adding more mystery is a bad thing, EVERYONE was waiting for answers. No one got any. That’s amazing personally, not only subverting our expectations, but now final shape has got to tie all these loose ends. I trust and will give bungle the benefit of the doubt, I know they’re capable of giving us an amazing finale. I hope you can trust them too
This is how I am approaching it. I have disappointments in the campaign but not in a way that takes away from enjoyment of the content.
I don’t think the problem is the mystery. I think the problem is how it was marketed and sold. Lightfall doesn’t give new players a reason to stick around. Some veteran players might be itching for more story to come, but Lightfall did nothing to give new players hope for the future, in my opinion.
This is a theory, but I believe that like the Traveler is of the Light and the Pyramids are of the Dark, The Veil is something of both, A machine of Twilight. This device would harmonize with both halves like Strand.
It's not the first time we've seen a combination of light & dark forces. That's quite literally the origin story for the entire awoken civilization.
That's what I was thinking through the video, the Traveller is an entity of the Light as The Witness is an entity of the Dark. I love the Twilight aspect though and agree. I was thinking in Black and White and you were thinking in Technicolor
I always thought it was interesting how the Veil was always referred to as a “paracausal” force, but not a Light or Dark, or even Wish magic force. Ghost can pick up on Light and Dark, but still says the Veil has “paracausal” energy, nothing more
@@dillonsalmond8929 that is only partially correct. The witness just wields the darkness. It is not made of darkness
@@knickiicht Yeah, I believe the Traveller wields the Light as the Witness wields the Darkness. Sorry, my wording was off
Honestly, I’ve enjoyed Lightfall so far because I’m mainly gameplay oriented. I haven’t followed the lore and I’m very glad people like you can dive into it so someone like me can catch up and be up to speed. Thank you
I'm fine not knowing what the Veil is right now. All we really needed to know is that if the Witness wants it that badly, then it definitely needs to be taken by us. My only gripe with the campaign was how it ended. When everyone started saying we lost, I legitimately thought I had accidentally skipped a cutscene.
I would agree if everyone in the story didn't talk like they already knew what the veil was
@@strrmnn Not a single character besides maybe Rohan even hints that they know what it is. All anybody knows is that it’s an object of extreme paracausal power.
Yeah, I would've been fine with them saying we lost and being confused on why things aren't ending and seem to be more in a state of limbo at the moment. That news report from Jisu Calerondo should've been in the main quest and not a freaking patrol. That is vitally important information.
@@strrmnnonly native neomuni have shown that they know what’re you talking about
@@strrmnn They knew what it did for Neomuna, why it was important and that it had to be defended at all costs. However, on what it did beyond that (ie: On a paracausal level) they were clueless.
Just finished consuming this 33 minute video in 30 seconds. Great job Byf I expect another video on my desk by tommorow. The beast needs to feed.
Thanks for your hardwork:)
@@aimlessjames8939 I'm confident it's a joke, unless they installed an extension for x100 speed on youtube and have attained the superhuman ability to consume information at that rate.
@@aimlessjames8939 ... did you hit your head?
your comments about the Lightfall critiqe at the beginning of the video has actually restored a LOT of respect for me. i have my own reasons of course, but i'm not gonna go into them because i have a bad habit of ranting and getting into arguments.
something I noticed during the campaign is the “symbols” from the light artifact the weird tree looking symbol looks like a trunk of a tree and branch’s. While the dark symbol looks like roots when both are put together.So maybe when both light and dark are put together we get the symbology of something like a world tree. Neither good nor bad. It just is. The branches of the tree (the light) promote growth or “leaves” or life in general and as they fall or are trimmed from the branches by the dark they fall to the ground and die and are then absorbed by the roots (the darkness)
I like that idea, like a celestial Yggdrasil
Game dev here: regarding your question at 5:59 it would be extremely easy to tie dialogue to initial exploration post-campaign. A simple switch that activates once you’ve beaten story aswell as a trigger to play the audio when you next enter a “combat area” the switch is then turned off so that the dialogue doesn’t replay every time you enter the area.
game dev here: i think its more a question of if this is possible within the constraints of destiny's systems; i think it's still very likely that it could be done, but we also have numerous examples of things bungie says they cant do because of these limitations, even when we would intuitively believe it should be easy
In fact they did something similar in BL, causing your first visit through certain loading zones to prompt Ghost dialogue about his concerns with Stasis.
I fell off a bit because of the inconsistency in your uploads but I'm back again for the lore byf. Loving it so far.
I’m interested in knowing how Poukas may relate to Nezarec because of their ability to sense and project emotions
I think they're just naturally attuned to Darkness, and maybe more accurately Strand energy, not necessarily Nezarec specifically
both use darkness (concepts regarding emotion, dreams, feeling) but in vastly different ways. pouka's make heavy usage of memory and emotion to sympathize and care for its companions whereas nezarec feeds off of a certain feeling, that feeling being pain.
The wormhole thing makes sense. Savathun hinted that we'd be leaving the Sol system soon (that's probably the easiest way to do it). It would also put the travel in traveler if that gate way is just part of its function.
I think the veil is simply the traveler's engine (probably why it didn't leave yet)
This is actually an underrated theory.
Thank you byf for these videos. I stopped playing destiny years ago but still watch your videos for the story.
Something I think is pretty ignored. The witness lied. It was never about blowing it up. We were showed that vision just to lead our ghost there.
Good catch!
I took it more as the Witness would like it destroyed, but lost that chance when we destroyed the Radial Mast. Maybe if Nimbus hadn’t swiped Ghost out of the air, he would have detonated, Sagira style
@@Asheslit unlikely. The first time we find out about the plan, it was "you will *link the radial mast* and see the veil destroyed"(right next to us, btw. A bit weird discussing your plans right in front of your enemies... see point 2.)
Second time: "secure the veil, we will create the link [...]"
Both of these lines happen before Rohan destroyed the mast.
My interpretation is that it was either 1."Use it then nuke it so no one can revert what we did." or 2.just a lie to get us to hurry. They needed a light artifact near the veil, they would've had one either way. Be it the mast or our ghost.
Edit: misremembered. Second line actually happens right after.
@@idfk_vfx I imagine it is a bit of both. Much like the Witnesses goals in Spire of the Watcher. Primary Goal: Learn the location of Neomuna, codename: Nefele Stronghold and delete any trace of it. Secondary Objective: Lure Rasputins subminds, imprison them and blow up the Spire.
The Sol Divisive Vex and Eramis succeed in their primary goal, but the secondary goal was foiled by us. While we were led to believe that their secondary objective was their primary goal. Season of the Seraph sets up the fact that The Witness and its close allies (like Xivu Arath) always have a plan B or even a plan C ready to go. Just look at the Warsats. If Xivu got control of them, bye bye Last City. If we got control over them and used them on the Wrathborne, bye bye last city. In the case that we get control over them and do nothing, send Eramis in to hack the systems and use them that way. The only way we avoided any of those 3 outcomes was Rasputin sacrificing itself.
Even ignoring the fact there's no evidence the Witness knew it was being observed, why would it need to lie again? If we *didn't* think it was going to destroy the Veil, were we just going to... ignore it and leave Neomuna? Was the Radial Mast entirely irrelevant? If so, that's a *comical* amount of effort just to get a Ghost into the room. I think a much more likely occurrence is it just got lucky. We forgot that our Ghost is a link to the Traveler and that the Witness could control it, and it used us dropping out guard to its advantage. Had we not intervened, Calus would've likely been able to establish the link in some other way, or secured it and just... taken it to the Witness directly. It's a Xanatos gambit, where every outcome results in victory, not some careful six-dimensional chess "I knew you'd do that so I did this" Death Note nonsense.
Lets see Byf’s descent into madness
I’m so glad you said that about those who enjoy or not enjoy… it’s beyond me like have your opinions but people don’t need to drag others down over those opinions
I’m just putting this out there, for everyone’s consideration.
Say you only need one more piece to finish a puzzle, and someone else is constantly trying to steal or destroy your puzzle pieces, and the puzzle pieces have been scattered all over the place. The best logical course of action is to try to find a point in time where you find the last piece you need before they do.
This is what the Witness did. It waited until the right moment to strike and go after the Veil and in the end gave us absolutely no time to learn anything so that we wouldn’t be able to form any real means of counterattack. This is a strategic and planned strike that likely came with consul and advice from the War God herself. Rohan likely knew a little about the Veil but not a lot, Nimbus is still fairly young and would likely have sent us back down to the Ishtar facility to dig up archives, which would’ve given Calus all the time in the world to pressure on towards the Veil.
There was simply no time for explanations. This is Bungie flipping our expectations, because we’re so used to bulldozing our enemies with minimal resistance that the idea of someone walking over us like a doormat is unfathomable to us. Yet that’s exactly what the Witness did.
this is a great outlook, i just don't think bungie got that point across effectively. possibly good intentions, subpar execution.
when you put it like this... it really helps explain so vagueness and confusion in the campaign. we don't know what the witness did cause well, it was dedicated to achieving its goal and to that end, make sure nothing stood in its way. it set us up from the very beginning. i agree that bungies portrayal wasnt the best, but seeing it from this perspective really helps show that the witness is a force equivalent/stronger than us. it just bulldozed its way through sol to the traveler, waited for the perfect moment and striked. and we never had the time to react
@@vultionsin3028 exactly. Another thing people probably don’t realize is that our own guardian became the Witness’ failsafe if Calus failed his objectives. Either Calus links the Radial Mast, or secures the Veil, or kills us, or we kill Calus and the Witness uses our Ghost to form the link.
I agree with your assessment greatly, after starting my second playthrough of the campaign I began to realize what actually happened and that everyone else in the Destiny universe is just as confused as we are. It really is like infinity war to the point where we didn't know enough about what we were trying to protect to make an adequait defense. I made a post as well about Osiris being just as clueless as we are.
My theory is that The Veil has the ability to open/seal portals to a higher dimension through highly concentrated energy beams designed to warp the fabric of space time. It seems as though The Witness has entered the inner realm of The Traveler perhaps to reveal secrets, or destroy it completely from the inside out.
one kinda interesting note about wormholes is to prevent it from collapsing you would need some form of exotic matter with negative mass. So paracausal space magic is good for your holes.
What if in the first cutscene we see the witness, when he says “your pale heart holds the key”, he is not talking to the traveler but the gardener herself and the traveler is her “pale heart”?
Isn’t it possible that the veil is the darkness equivalent of the traveler? It seemed like a major point leading up to and during Lightfall was that the light and darkness are neither good nor bad, Osiris even saying how the darkness seems to be merely paracausal power based on concepts while light is physical, and the Veil is said to be the reason that Strand, a darkness subclass, is so prevalent in Neomuna in the first place. It almost seems like Strand is the first, for lack of a better term, wholesome darkness power, almost like how void feels very sinister despite being a light power, even so far as being one of the damage types most associated to the witness’s forces other than their weird wavy orange geometry attacks. This is also why I think the witness needed the veil’s power, as in getting directly hit by a beam of light from the traveler, I think the witness had already started the process of opening it’s portal and it finished after getting hit by a very similar beam from the veil. TLDR I think the veil is a chill darkness being like the traveler is to the light.
I totally agree with this theory
I'm pretty sure the Witness is to the Darkness what the Traveler is to the Light. The Witness is handing out the powers of the Darkness to people the same way the Traveler hands out the Light to people
The veil is the travlers heart because the witness literally says your pale heart holds the key
@@Neo_p1xleliterally makes no sense that the veil is the travelers heart. Look at D1’s opening cutscene where the astronauts on mars first discover the traveler terraforming; at the time neomuna did not exist, so it very unlikely the veil is the travelers heart since it had no heart when it first arrived, and humans hadn’t traveled to & populated Neptune yet.
@@Neo_p1xle u didn't watch the whole video did you?
I actually love this era because these videos have the same mystery and feel that your old videos did.
I think Revision Zero isn't a bug. Mainly because the symbol on the magazine is similar to the one Rhulk had on the upended and to some of the symbols you can see on Calus's ship in the campaign and on some of the Shadow Legion. I think it might be a shared symbol for disciples. With it being unique to the one it's related to.
I took 'pale heart' as a synonym for our ghost, it seems like something you could refer to them as. Light travels through the dark so maybe darkness was needed to form a doorway and light was the key. Perhaps the veil is what happens to everything that dies, containing essentially infinite being, this could 'explain' its processing power. Maybe the traveler was someone like the witness whom he wants to bring back out of the veil as he seems to express some 'care' towards the traveler.
So you're implying that the Veil is similar to the life stream from Final Fantasy 7 and 14?
Children care about their parents after all, even the rebel children
I've been replaying the campaign missions on other Guardian classes and this occured to me.
A Veil is a light peice of fabric which typically covers something. Fabric led to me thinking 'fabrics of reality'' and strand as reference to 'String theory'. This then contextualises the 'portal' The Witess punches in The Traveller at the end of the campaign as a breakdown in the fabric of reality. We also know that alternative realities/dimensions with different events are canon because of the Dark Future lore book. Allthough not sure this is conclusive proof - The Witch Queen Savathun and Ahamkara know about the alternative nature of dimesions (having spoken to the player).
My theory is that by destroying the Veil, the Witness' portal creates a door into other timelines/dimensions/realities which it needed the light for (fundamental forces, two sides of the same coin stuff). The final shape will be about the demise of not just our game universe, but the erasure of all universes in all timelines and dimensions. A true nihilistic, final shape.
It is also a feasible theory for the 'Could ARK'. We learned that it's used for recreational, as well as safety purposes but that physical bodies are still important. What if this 'VR' is not virtual, but a real, seperate reality that the Neomuni have been able to tap into in the hundreds of years following the collapse with their advanced knowledge of The Veil and it's capabilities.
It could also explain the Vex interest in the Veil and desire to recreate it. As we know, the Vex regurarly feature alternative realities through digital, or different 'dimensions' imagine if their whole force had free reign to come and go as they pleased. Seems like positive gain for ol' Vex and their goals to dominate as primary species.
Just my thoughts! Would be keen to learn about anything else in support / contrary to my theory!
I feel as if the Witness is trying to do something concerning the Nine. The whole wormhole/portal reminds me of the beginning of prophecy, going through a portal to an alternate reality.
It would check out considering how the veil is used in our reality
Interesting theory on the Nine, I think you may be on to something... much research is needed on my end thanks for the starting point
This is a great thing to think about
Thanks for the new lore mystery that's gonna plague my life
Alright guys hot take, what if the witness is trying to use the nines power to bring about the final shape. What if the nine is going to be brought forth into our reality, the full power of the nine shaping out universe to the final shape
The portal in the traveler leads to the realm of the nine, through which the witness will bring absolute power back through
For anyone who’s interested, I’m pretty convinced the opening cutscene has shown us a sneak peak at what Nezarec looks like. When the camera pans to the witness for the first time on the pyramid ship, there is a statue of a figure holding a scythe and wearing a helmet with two horns shown on their right. Coincidence? I think not.
Looks more like a Tormentor tbh
@@mikxa5881 Tormentors are theorized to be based off of Nezarec in both looks and powers. Mixed in with a little Psion since Nezarec and Psions have some tie ins.
@@CrushableDread well then, i learned something new today. Good shout!
I said this from the second ghost got witnessed. "He wants us to get there, to the veill. Why? Until I know why we should stay away from it." The entire campaign there was a pushing of "get to the veil as fast as possible." Even on legendary it felt to easy. Maybe I've just gotten that good at building my characters but I never felt like I hit a wall until I got to the end. Like "okay just this one obstacle in my way to break through."
Bungie can't tell their own stories well enough so they rely on the community to tell it for them
30:20
I mean it makes sense, when you consider just how much suffering, fear, confusion, horror and PAIN an Exo would go through without the memory wipes and everything else that was done to keep them somewhat stable.
And if all you care about is to create more and more suffering, just keep creating Exo's, it won't matter if you use the same personality or a different one.
Just create the Exo's and let them grow increasingly unstable, let them suffer more and more until they die, maybe add a personal thouch to their suffering every now and again... and then make more when they eventually expire.
As long as Mr. Whisper can get the materials to make more Exo's he's essentially got and infinte supply of suffering to feast upon, and we know that it's not just humans that can become Exo's....... so yeah, it's not that strange to think that Mr. Whisper was, at least partially, responsible for the creation of the Exo's.
.........dear gods, if that was the plan behind the creation of the Exo's then our whispering friend is a monster on a whole other scale than even Rhulk 😨
Does that mean the pyramid on europa was nezarecs?
@@GrimViridian
No the one on the moon belongs/belonged to Nezarec.
The one on Europa arrived with the rest of the fleet.
The K1 artifact however is what gave Clovis the idea for Exo's
So here’s what I think… the Black Heart was the first experimental version of the Veil… and it had a connection to the Traveller but it wasnt perfect and only poisoned it. The Veil is the perfect reconstruction of the Traveller’s heart and has a nontoxic effect.
Also… for those asking how the veil got to Neptune… in the first video we see before starting the first mission we hear Zavalla talking about last year… he mentions Savathun hid it on Neptune… perhaps she placed it there?
i think so. thatas why she wanted the traveler safe so the witness could never find either
Bungie better hope that these upcoming seasons are going to delve into what the Veil is and other things to start answering questions because we should be getting answers now because Final Shape should be all about the resolution of the Light/Dark saga. Otherwise, people are going to abandon the game very quickly.
We don't need another Season of Plunder that felt more like a distraction than anything else. Though if Bungie had an Eliksni become a Guardian at the end of the Season of Plunder that would've changed things and made it be part of Witch Queen's theme of other races getting Light Powers in my opinion.
I was as harsh as anyone else with Lightfall’s campaign, but I replayed it on a different character and it a really fun time when you can put aside your questions. I wish it was better, but I liked Nimbus and Rohan and really wish we’d seen more of them, but my second time through Strand was WAY more fun because I understand it better
Did you do it on legendary lol
I was the same way, part of my sourness with the campaign came from how they introduced Strand but replaying on legendary with all the fragments I wanted for a build has been pretty fun
Oh if only Nimbus and Rohan had more screen time... :'(
Cloudstriders added nothing
@@TheAcidicMolotov there’s this ongoing theme of confronting mortality that I really liked. Osiris is on his last life, the Cliudstriders die in ten years no matter what, Rohan dies. your Guardian nearly shoots their ghost and so on. I dare say it’s the best narrative through-line in the xpacs story but unfortunately it’s still too rushed to feel effective.
a few notes on Einstein-Rosen Bridges, from an aspiring physicist:
in theory, Einstein-Rosen Bridges a form of wormhole that exists at the bottom of every black hole. the passage is infinitely thin, infinitely long, and requires an infinite amount of time to cross - not an optimal mode of transport. aside from that, they don't transport you to another place in this universe - they transport you to the _same_ place in a mirror universe, where everything is upside down and time runs backwards. also, as a reminder, black holes _kill you_ - you'd be spaghettified into a stream of atoms before you even reached the entrance.
in summary, the Bungos just used it as a sci-fi buzzword to refer to some form of gateway with weird, clarketech-y properties. not much different from other sci-fi, really - as many of us say, sci-fi tends to be more about the fi than the sci.
I've had a theory since the final cutscenes in WQ:
Based on the Witness's design, the multiple faces in his head-smoke, the chorus of voices that it speaks with, and the afterimage of its hand movements...
What if the Witness is actually the Guardian from every time lime converged into a single entity.
It would make sense why it asked "don't you recognize us?" at the end of shadowkeep while wearing our Guardian's form
The glaive from Haunted is literally named “Nezarec’s Whisper.” Probably a good one to try
That one was already one of the confirmed whispering items.
@@brandondennis7527I’m confused on what everyone means by whispering items
@@redset985 Completing patrols and other activities on Neomouna has a small chance to get incoherent whispers played. Unless you have certain items equipped. Then they're not incoherent, they're dialogue from Nezerec.
On the Einstein-Rosen Bridge stuff: I studied general relativity for my physics degree but its been a long time since I thought about this stuff in any meaningful detail, but let me try to help out.
An Einstein-Rosen bridge is a solution to The Schwarzchild Equation (a description of how matter influences spacetime) in Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates that is effectively a wormhole between two completely separate/adjacent causalities (or universes). The solution is only valid under certain conditions, one of which being it occurs at the singularity of a black hole that has existed for an infinite amount of time.
The important thing to note is that you’re not going backwards in time by crossing the bridge but you are entering a parallel universe, I think. Its a separate causal spacetime. No action or causal connection in our universe can influence the other.
The key thing to note is the murals on the pyramids (or neomuna maybe? Can’t remember) have a kruskal-szekeres pattern with the traveller at the centre (as in the traveller IS the portal/centre of the wormhole/singularity that has existed for an infinite amount of time).
This all really leans in to the Unveiling lore about the origin of the universe. I believe the pale heart of the traveller is the singularity/a black hole that has existed since the beginning of time itself and is the key that the witness needed to cross into an alternative timeline/parallel universe.
Correct me if I’m wrong in any way.
Following up: this is from a Lost Memory Fragment in Warmind.
“Lost Memory Fragment
12 DAYS UNTIL DIVERGENCE Jumping into an Einstein-Rosen bridge to travel in time has long been regarded fantasy by serious physicists. But what if there existed a computer so powerful it could indistinguishably simulate an entire alternate timeline? Based on my early research, this is a possibility of Vex technology. The key question would be whether one could take knowledge from a simulated timeline and alter the original. One step at a time, though. This item may be safely discarded.”
I think this is the Witness’s goal explained right here.
I like how in the end cutscene there is so much time for nimbus to fly up and grab the ghost but he w8ts until after it makes the link.
I think the Veil is supposed to be like The Traveler was for us, we don’t know anything about it besides just being paracausal and a source of light or dark. The writing team probably meant to keep it secret, although it sucks that Osiris has all this info about it we don’t know. Why can’t bird man just tell us what this thing does already!!!
Maybe because we don't know what it is? Osiris even says that the veil is of dire importance to the witness so we must defend the veil at all cost
He doesn't know it either
I always forget how ABSOLUTELY EPIC Byf's Guardian looks
Either our side's leadership and the witness stood there for a really long time, or our Ghost got super attached to Rohan in a really short time. Literally more affected by his sacrifice than Rasputin's.
One interesting note- the new Strike dialogue has changed, EVEN FOR A FIRST RUN ON AN ALT CLASS, with Caitl commenting on Nezarec's voice being the same one heard in the nightmares of the Neomuni. So this either detects whether you've heard the dialogue accountwide or this situation is actively evolving and you can hear him before completing the campaign now. Idr if I heard him on that character prior to the Strike, but I know that I was using Nezarec's Whisper on my first class for the entire campaign and never heard anything (Edit: IN THE PATROL ZONES) before completing LF.
I heard him playing the strike when the campaign required it, Only exotic I had equipped was assassins cowl, which did not translate other sections.
I was wearing Nezarec's Sin on my first playthrough, on Day 1, heard him say 'I am Nezarec.'
@@0nceAhero You do hear his voice in the strike, yes, but afaik normally you don't start hearing him in Neomuna until after LF. But in reruns on my alt classes the Strike dialogue commented on the patrol zone dialogue which I shouldn't have heard yet.
@@skeletor8951 At that point I had not finished the campaign. It was a pretty long "I am nazerac" manifesto type speech
The recurring nightmares that involve returning to the Deep Stone Crypt thanks to the Long Slow Whisper also take some... new light on with what you mentioned at the end.
It's insane that the Nezarec lore potentially links all the way back to Shadowkeep! Kinda crazy how good the Nezarec setup is compared to the mess that was the veil...
All the way to D2 vanilla since the helmet is in the game since the begining
Technically, it explicitly links back to Shadowkeep, because we know the Lunary Pyramid once belonged to Nezarec (in Season of the Haunted, we do battle with Calus inside that Pyramid in a location called "Chantry of the Darkest Hour." The title "Darkes Hour" is one of Nezarec's epithets). So we know that the nightmares, and thus Shadowkeep's entire plot, have connections to Nezarec
God bless you Byf. You're always there to explain to us what Bungie will not.
Dont forget how us destroying the black heart was a trigger to the Witness waking up and start moving towards us for for the last 8 years before it arrived this past year. And that Exo Stranger (Elsie Bray) was the one that set us on that path.
No it wasn't... it "woke up" at the end of d2 vanilla campaign, when it burnt the shackles off ghauls device to trap it. You literally see it pulse out into the solar system. So really the red war caused all this hahaha!
In addition. I think the Veil aswell as the cloud ark is deeply connected to the vex network itself. I could be on that space rock but I'm getting strong vibes we are soon to be set onto the truth behind the vex and possibly their connection to the traveler. The energies swirling from that portal are similar to the ones seen inside the black garden. Strong vibes from both what Nezerac said of the sol divisive, and the lore during the winterbite quest. The baby vex mind and the warning about ol longboy on Titan. Finally. Keep in mind. That doorway the witness made was triangular. Mercury, the vault of glass among other places involved with the vex have the same types of doorways.
I always figured the Vex were the final shape in their own universe.
@@RhianKristen Preach.
This has to be the case
First i was hyped to no end, then i was confused, now im hopefull. I wouldnt mind seeing the veil being explored throughout the year.
When you started talking about how K1 is connected to Nezarec it immediately made me think of the dialog from Nezarec that says "Nezarec: I am the shadow bursting from your own. I shred it to pieces... and replace it." and the seeming correlation with the Luna lore books 2,8,5 by Dr. Wade Bow. He talks about a "shadow hallucination". One that was a reflection of themselves that is headless and heavily implies it wants him to behead himself. But the way Nezarec talks about replacing your shadow very much mirror the language and vibe of those lore books. Maybe its a stretch idk but if Nezarec is directly connected to K1 It may be a real connection
Please make sense of this. Lightfall is feeling really rough on lore.
Maybe if you people stopped crying so much about strand then just maybe you could of focused on the story and wouldn't of been confused like a simpleton..
@kolz4ever1980 I think your seriously projecting friend. I understand that whiners must really get on your nerves as a lore head and a lover of the game.
But none of what you said could be gleamed from anything in my comment and seemed to be things you assume about me.
Good luck to you, But you should honestly take a breather.
No idea where Xivu is during all this but imagine how powerful she is now due to all the battles that are taking place
Yeah but we aren’t fighting her directly sadly so she won’t spawn in lmao
I imagine she and her brood are still mopping up what is left of the Cabal Empire after the destruction of Torobatl. Especially now that her ploy last season fell through.
My theory is that the Veil is somehow the key to creating a paracausal wormhole/gateway to the place where the Winnower and The Gardener used to play the flower game. It may be some kind of paracausal higher plane that they left at the start of “time” once they went their separate ways.
This is only a theory that came to mind really trying to process all of this. It’s possible the Witness can not return to the higher plane on his own with only the power of the darkness. He may need the Veil (once linked) to be able to access the Light…. In combination with his darkness… to gain the power/ability to create and make use of a wormhole/gateway back to garden where they once played the flower game. If true, the Witness obviously needs something located there to enact his plan for the final shape. Maybe the Traveler’s pale heart is either something in the garden or the garden itself.
I know this theory is kind of out there but it’s just a thought I put together after thinking on it a while.
I hope the raid gives answers, i know that the raid shouldnt be integral to understanding the story but i would rather get answers on march 10th then next year. ALSO i personally think that if nezerac betrayed the witness once, why would he help the witness now? I think that the raid boss wont be nezerac but nezerac will help us instead.
While nezerac is an enemy to the witness, it doesn't stop him from being an enemy to us seeing as he's the "final god of pain".
Nah nezerac will not be an ally. We have to put him down.
The raid will give exactly zero answers to the main campaign story.
The pulsing glowing marks on Calus’ shoulder after he’s defeated make me nervous. Also, I really hope that the hand cannon wielded by the Hunter in the Lightfall promo art is a new quest related exotic at some point. After all, it does look stylistically similar to Revision Zero!
I hate to burst your bubble, but it’s a legendary weapon. If you click on the weekly campaign mission, it shows an image of a fireteam carrying a whole set of stylistically similar weapons. I’m hoping these get added in as post-raid content.
My main hypothesis for The Veil:
I think The Veil is the thing that connects (& allows the connection of) the light & the darkness.
“The Threads that connect them” if you will.
Here’s my reasoning:
1)
When a Veil is used in religious or spiritual contexts, it refers to a separation of the physical world & the spiritual world.
& from what we have learned in Light fall from Osiris, the light is connected to the physical, & the Darkness is connected to the mental/emotional. Aka, Physical & “spiritual”
& the “Parting of the Veil” is when the veil separating the two worlds is removed. Physical becomes thought, & thought becomes physical. The witness uses the Veil’s power to bridge this divide, & gain access to the traveler through that triangular door.
2)
I think it’s appearance also lends to this.
It’s “upper half looking like a psychic light flower (it’s darkness connection) & it’s physical roots (it’s light connection)
Now let’s connect this to the Vex, the Exos, & the Neomunians.
(Bare with me, I’m about to get REALLY speculative)
I think that the Vex are creations OF The Veil.
(Hear me out)
If the Veil represents the connecting Threads (🧵) between light & darkness (physical & mental) then I feel like a perfect embodiment of that is a MASSIVE Hive mind network puppeteering mechanical bodies (oh hey look
"The stars are off limits, but the veil knits an entire universe for us. We just have to *embrace* it" - Bluejay questline
I think the answer to one question lies right here. That is incredibly specific.