The Oldest Submarines in Active Service - "When You Have Nothing Else..."
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2024
- Eighty year old submarines are, generally, not the first thing you think of when asked 'oldest warships in service'. You probably think of Connie or Victory first, though they do stretch the definition of 'in service' a bit.
However, the Taiwanese Navy (Republic of China Navy) does still operate two WW2-era submarines. The ex-USS Cutlass and USS Tusk. These are pushing eighty, and are still in limited service. They probably won't be for much longer.
But for now, these remain the oldest submarines in service by several decades.
Further Reading:
www.history.navy.mil/research...
www.history.navy.mil/research...
www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit...
I shouldn't need to emphasize this, but to be clear:
There's a reason I use the wording 'stereotypical peacetime duty'. That's what these boats were used for. Training, patrols, fleet exercises, surveys. They never saw combat, so they were doing the peacetime duties.
Were Korea and Vietnam during this period? Yes.
Did these subs see combat? No. Neither case had any need for old WW2 fleet boats to actually see combat, and these two spent most of that time in the Atlantic or Mediterranean. Korea and Vietnam have the weird place where while *some* parts of the military were heavily involved in the war(s), others might as well have been at peace. That's what Cutlass and Tusk were doing.
Ergo, 'stereotypical peacetime duty'.
Cutlass was in the Pacific and en-route to her assigned area when the surrender was announced, she did see combat: just no action. she was there, at any point she could have encountered a Japanese ship or submarine- not seeing action does not in any way mean that she wasn’t in combat
I didn't do anything...We were never there, comes to mind.
A neat story would be the fact Japan gifted Taiwan 2 of their more modern subs in 1992 and later in 1995 Japan sold Taiwan a guided missile Destroyer with USA hardware and other weapons systems. The subs are there. The Destroyer has not been seen since it was transferred and the legend has it the thing was sailed to Argentina for more USA upgrades and the thing still has never been seen since. Do I know any of this 4 a fact. yes I recently had a colleague that was on that Destroyer. It is super hidden and it does exist. Taiwan has done an excellent job of not being blowhards boasting about their semi secret boat. I applaud them for not revealing it. The boat has an Aussie captain if that is even believable. The ships captain helps to design amusement parks part time among other endeavors. Sounds a little out there but it ain't...
In 2000 my ship made a port call to Aksaz naval base in Turkey. Pier side was what was clearly an old Balao class with a GUPPY conversion and what was probably an old Gleaves class destroyer. At first I thought they were museum ships, but they were in fact still in service. They looked comically small next to the LHD I was on.
My old ship, Knox Class frigate USS Ainsworth FF-1090, was transferred to Turkey in 1994 as the TCG Ege, and they retired her in 2005, putting her on display at the Inciralti Sea Museum. The TCG Pirireis (exUSS Tang SS-563) is moored alongside. 😎👍
Could have been ex-USS Razorback if it was in Turkey. It's now a museum ship in Little Rock (I was there last month for the eclipse and visited it while I was there), and apparently it was still in Turkish service until 2001.
Wasn’t a Gleaves, those were all retired by Turkey in the 70s…it was a Gearing Class TCG Gayret formerly the USS Eversole and was retired five years before so was preserved as a museum shop
Possibly Gudgeon SS567
Someone already mentioned this but you probably saw the USS Razorback SS-394
As a former submariner myself and being fortunate enough to go through a couple of those old WWII boats, I can say this with absolute certainty. I'm convinced that the men who served on those boats during the war used a wheelbarrow to carry their 'nads around!!!
It would be nice if Cutlass and Tusk attain museum ship status upon retirement. They definitely earned the rest after decades of service far away from the land of their construction.
Why? Neither saw any special activity during their U.S. Navy service. There are far more deserving Balao and Gato class boats already serving as museum ships. I even think there is a Tench class boat that's a museum ship, even saw some action in World War II.
Would be nice to see one added to the San Diego Maritime Museum. There are no other WW2 era submarines available anywhere to fill that spot. USS Ling is the only one I know of but there's no way that boat will end up here.
@@patrickmccrann991 - So you are saying that Taiwan already has museum ships of this type?
@nightlightabcd I don't think Taiwan has any museum ships. However, I could be wrong. I was thinking of U.S. museum ships.
The Torsk is still around in Baltimore.
The longevity of these ships alone has some merit for their preservation. Many Taiwanese bubbleheads of wide-ranging ages could walk through and remember their time aboard. Of course, it’s up to those citizens to decide, not me.
Served on the USS BANG (SS385) out of NLON 66-72. Great Portsmouth boat! I knew about the Cutlass being still in service but not the Tusk. We tied up along the Tusk many times in the 60's. Thanks for the memories!
Taiwan strait depth is normally 60-meters and does not exceed 90 meters for the most part, both these subs are perfectly at home here. They can sit on the bottom blending in and ambush any ships in bound. And with modern 21-inch torpedo's they are still quite deadly.
Yep, and Taiwan's brand-new Hai Kun-class subs will be even deadlier , although the Wikipedia article on them suggests that they lack an anechoic coating. Seems odd if that's true. Presumably that's to save money but I wouldn't have thought that at least a basic standard anechoic coating would cost all that much. Maybe a few million dollars - nothing in the overall scheme of things.
@@gaius_enceladus Does not need the coating in the Taiwan Strait. It is VERY noisy there. It could take out even a modern sub under the right conditions. It would probably die too though once it opened torp doors. It is probably the only place on Earth that they would be effective weapons platforms.
If Conqueror was still with us with us she would pretty dominate the area.
@@ABrit-bt6ce Very much so. Hmmmm I wonder with all the Obrion's being kept as museum ships how much would it take to put them back on patrol as well???
Even a rusty knife can be deadly. If it is all you have is up to you to make the most of it. An idiot with the best weapons is still an idiot and vulnerable.
The poor old Canadian Navy loves stretching out service life! We did a sonar buoy dipping operation with the Oberon class boats on a sea king launched from the Iroquois during an exercise back in 2001 in the Atlantic, we never heard her and she surfaced right below the helicopter during dipping operations, bloody things were quiet AF.
After watching a CBC documentary on this class of sub and seeing the conning tower hatch leaking like a sieve during a 50ft submergence....that quiet AF, doesn't mean much if you drown everyone on board.
That said.....they're still MILES better than those 2 junk Upholder Class ones we bought from the UK for $2 Billion.🤣
@@CannonFodder873Brought for 2 billion ?
Please send us the link when you got this figure?
@@skylongskylong1982 750 Million + refit costs for both + drydock costs for both + repair costs for bouncing one off the bottom off the west coast.
You actually BELIEVE the info the government puts out ?🤣
This is why I think Australia is nuts going nuclear for our next subs, DE are deathly quiet as the Americans find out every joint exercise, the Aussie, Canadian and Sth Korean diesel boats wreak havoc every time.
@@marvindebot3264 DE subs are deathly quiet......until the batteries run out or you need to make an extended voyage. Then they're some of the loudest things out there. For the US Navy, which operates all over the globe and needs subs to run submerged for thousands of miles and have as much range as possible, it's a logical choice. Not sure why Australia feels the need to run them though.
It's great that these subs were available for Taiwan to give training to the recruits that were going into the newer Hai Lung-class subs.
I think Taiwan has done really well in slowly but steadily building up its sub capabilities.
The brand new Hai Kun-class subs should be another good step forward there.
The prospect of diving in an 80 year old sub is terrifying to me!
I wouldn't trust it either yet the Alvin submersible famous for going down to the Titanic and coming back up again is 60 years old, obviously it is built to far higher specifications and far higher depths.
...Submariners have bigger b___s than most people...I served aboard the USS Blueback SS581 back in the seventies doing ops with the US Navy Seals and the ROKN UDT/SEALs and the boat's operating depth was limited to 700 feet, in water that averages 300 feet. Don't forget, you can drown in a bathtub.
@@thomasernst4894 Disliked your comment for your moronic self censorship. Grow up.
Can still visit Blueback in Portland !
Just a note that the USS Cochino was on an intel gathering mission when that explosion occurred and several of Tusk’s crew were killed in the rescue.
Yup. I’ll be covering that in the dedicated Tusk video. And a hypothetical Cochino one.
Just didn’t bring it up here, because the focus was ultimately on the Taiwanese side.
@@skyneahistory2306 Excellent, glad you’re giving her a dedicated video. Great presentation as always.
My great-uncle was on the crew of the Cochino when it foundered. He never talked about the mission or what happened. I've seen the episode of Silent Service about the incident. th-cam.com/video/pZk8NbvPW1w/w-d-xo.html
And there was a book "The Last Cruise" written by IIRC the XO of the Cochino too. I have a copy of that book somewhere. I just moved and have NO idea where to find it.
I've been thinking of putting a FOIA request for the journals and logs for the last cruise.
I wouldn't want to dive in an 80+ submarine.
Why not? Steel is steel... the quality and construction can be an issue more with new ones than with old ones...
A bad welding, twice, a bad torpedo door, several times... to bad reactor design, thanks marxism, to a bad torpedo propulsion chemical, because corruption (thanks marxism).
80 years tested, 80 years tempered steel... I am not an expert naval designer, just a metallurgist, but I prefer the old than the new.
@@RebeccaCampbell1969 corrosion and metal fatigue
i'd take an eighty year old American sub over anything ever made by russia, china, or any other pink-o, bitch nation.
@@RebeccaCampbell1969 What applies to certain tools doesn't really apply well to submarines. Yes, a good axe or hammer from the 1940s tends to be made of stronger metal than they make new ones out of, but a submarine hull definitely suffers from metal fatigue and corrosion. Eighty years is well past the safe operating timeframe for the designs in question, which explains why the Chinese have not dived them deep or long for many years now.
No kidding.
keep up the videos man your my favorite naval related channel you dont have annoying intros or cutaways and you voice is nice and clear
My father was an EMC on the USS Tusk when it was turned over to Taiwan. I been on board a few times. Would love to see it make its way back to the U.S. as a museum but doubt it’ll happen.
Your unique topics continue to be an intriguing draw! It's amazing how much naval history there is to discover.
@skyneahistory Did not know a better place to post this. Kalamazoo Air Zoo in Michigan has a piece of the USS Juneau that landed on the USS Helena during Guadalcanal after the Juneau exploded.
Great presentation! Thank you!
Great job thanks 👍
My first ship, USCGC Sedge, was commisioned before both of these, and wasn't decommissioned until the early 2000's. I sailed her in the late 90's.
As far as I can tell, she is still active in the Nigerian Navy.
So, by commissioning date, she is older. By laid down date, really damn close.
Back in 2007, I helped tie up a Peruvian diesel boat. I believe it was one of ours, but I'm not super sure. When I walked up to the pier, I couldn't see the boat until I got to the edge and looked down. The boat was probably 2/3rds the size of our tugs. And compared to the boomers, was just 2 bathtubs welded together.
After some research it might have been of German origin.
From Chinese Wikipedia: Sources from ROC Navy indicated the ROCS Hai Shi had conducted a dive test in 2018, and it was certified to be capable of diving to maximum depth of 150 meters.
When my ship was drydock at Hunters Point in 1973, I saw a Tawain submarine being worked by their crew which made wondered why there was a Taiwanese sub in the US. Now I know it was the former USS Cutlass.
The hull steel is high temper highly rustable about 1 inch thick. Insulation is cork. The trim and floatation tanks are far more vulnerable to inside corrosion, but fresh water flushing can reduce rust a lot. Allis Chalmers double piston diesels are very durable, and a lot of spare parts exist in locomotive shops. Fatigue is non existent, but dents and corrosion reduce diving depth. Diving duration is set by crew numbers and CO2 scrubbing. Range is based almost entirely on surface speed and ocean currents.
If I ever win the lottery, I want to buy a submersible yacht. Not a full submarine, just in case pirates approach, I want the ability to submerge and scoot away for a few hours. A nice viewing window would be great also.
So one of them can say:
“That’s the best pirate I have ever seen”
Hell yeah!
@joebombero1 - I'd *love* to have a personal sub! Apparently a few of them exist but they'd be super-expensive.
Youd' want to be ultra-sure of their safety too. A few ex-Navy people being involved in the design would be useful.
Even a spherical one with thrusters on it would be great!
Maybe even something similar to (but a bit bigger than) Alvin, which Woods Hole uses.
Also, the 'submersible' part of the yacht's spec would be useful for transiting Drake passage, the Aleutians, and any bad weather!
added ability to smuggle the odd thing or two.
How deep can it go?
Oh, she'll go all the way to the bottom if we let her.
I do not know if the US still uses them, but decades ago, they had a diesel sub at Key West that was used to train destroyers sonar operators. When running on the battery at low speeds, these boats were quieter than nuclear subs, making them difficult to detect with hydrophones. Maybe 10 years ago or so, in a NATO war game, an diesel electric boat was able to penetrate a US carrier screen in war games.
Can you make a video of IJN Yukikaze? There are lots of stories/movies about this legendary ship and many events seem to be make up by people (or at least questionable), such as it is the destroyer that salute to the sinking USS Johnston. I trust your immense knowledge can let us know among those stories, which are true, which are uncertain, and which are fake.
Tusk was built by Cramp Shipbuilding in Philadelphia, which was notorious for long delivery times and generally poor workmanship. There was one submarine, USS Lancetfish, which they managed to in fact not complete at all until she sank at her moorings in 1945! Cramp boats were regarded to have inferior depth performance compared to other Fleet Boats. In their case "test depth" mean "never to exceed depth" while other fleet boats did regularly dive deeper.
Fascinating. The fabulous Taiwanese, the Computer Chip capital of the World-are fabulous engineers in their own right. Likely quite capable of modernizing, as also a Ship Building Nation. Handy patrols 24/7 going up and down the Straits by the magnificent US Submarine Fleets.
They might be good at making computer chips, but a "Ship building nation" they are not. A good junk of Taiwan's/RoC's ships are actually built in the PRC, which, you know, may not be the smartest thing they could do.
Part of the GUPPY II update (Which both boats are listed as having.) included the snorkel which wasn't part of their "original equipment". The snorkel facilitated recharging the batteries while remaining submerged which significantly reduces their radar signature!
Damn that thing is like having kept the USS Tench at sea.
I'm surprised the Australian Navy was not mentioned with their archaic non stealth diesel subs.😂
It would be very interesting because these submarines are two of a kind it would be wonderful as a museum ship for these unique ships..
Semi-related note. These are "diesel boats". That is, they have diesel engines for surface action. There are modern diesel boats, however, that are deadly. They are quiet and have excellent weaponry.
They also replaced the conning towers unless that was covered under the Guppy modernization
Yes, that's part of the guppy kit.
The US kept a bunch of diesel powered subs from the 50s in action for decades, from the 50s until the Cold War ended. They kept as many hulls in action as possible just in case the war went hot.
Both have gone through hull refurbishment and certain necessary updates in more recent years to keep them operational.
Seeing the video preview i thought this would be about north korean submarines.
1:17 Seems awfully similar to “Down Periscope”
Sounds like a good way to wind up with the titan and titanic
USS Pueblo is still technically in active service. Due to maritime salvage laws.
TY-Something I read in 1976 about these subs, forgotten until this. I am interested in the last war in Saipan, and beyond the famous beach head battle , turning brave PLA conscripts into fish meal with light tanks. Sorry, not for a naval focus.
I’d much rather serve in peacetime, if I had the choice…
From what I read from Taiwanese sources, these boats can still dive because the pressure hulls had been rebuilt.
I would think older subs were you have to do everything manually would be better for training than modern automated subs.
Just for future Reference Connie is Constellation. Old Ironsides is Constitution. This is the first time I have heard Constitution referred to as Connie.
USS Odax SS 484. Captain E.F. Welch
Italian torpedoes need a very thick heavy rich sauce and alotta oregano.
If war broke out, I wouldn't want to be carrying a musket. But if that's all I have....
@9:53 "They still have not seen any combat..."
Officially.
"Training"
Yeah, that's it. Training.
A Real life Down Periscope
damned good flick.
Balao class too 😂
as long as its silent and has good radar. it can be used in two ways mine laying. and area denial using drone sub
Do submarines ever have radar?
Some of the submarines shown are not 1940s era subs.
1. Balao is pronounced "ba lou" 2. Even a WWII submarine can be VERY Quiet when running on the battery. With modern torpedo onboard, she could still be a serious threat.
When You R Opean the Capin says make sure it goes over the side of the boat... Not on the boat
Went inot US service on my dad's birth year, ROCN service on MY birth year! lol
Yes the TW navy….
Just like fishing boats, they rust from the inside out.. the piping is particularly thin after only 20 years..
These boats are in Tiwan and are fighting boats. Tiwan obtained 2 WW2 boats from the U.S in the early1970's with the outer doors to the torpedo tubes welded closed. Tiwan cut the doors open and work freely to this day. China was very annoyed with the U.S sale of these boats and although Tiwan has tried to purchase other boats from other countries, they have not been successful. Tiwan is presently building its own submarines, the Hai Lung-class and I believe they plan to build 8 of them.
Back in the 90's, I would take my brother back to his LA class sub down in Norfolk, back then a CV could walk with him all the way out the pier, in the middle of about 4 or 5 boats was this "thing", way smaller than an LA class and the entire surface was covered in dents, almost like you tried to flatten out a balled up piece of aluminum foil, he said it was a foreign countries boat (don't remember where) there for war games, it was a diesel electric, and he said when it went silent, even our best sonar operators could barely, if at all, find that thing, I don't think it was WWII era, but I would give it a good chance to have been built in the 50s or 60s
Doesn't the DPRK operate some pretty old Soviet-era submarines?
Chinese-variant Romeo-class, I believe. Which are old, but at absolute oldest, from the 1960s. So still a good twenty years newer than the boats in Taiwan.
(There’s understandably not much detail here. The North Korean boats might even be newer than that. 70s or 80s)
Romeos were garbage compared to Balao and Tench class. Even twenty years newer, they didn't compare well with the two U.S. designed boats.
RAHHHHH GUPPY CONVERSION WILL NEVER DIE
Meanwhile her sister Requin is sitting pretty as a museum in Pittsburgh.
Which fascinates me whenever I see her going up for buisness in the city
Knockoff Mark 14 torpedoes?
Limited service meaning what , don't submerge?
Don't submerge because the Pressure Hull may fail and if that happens, it's gone for good. Like he said in the video - they're more or less for training purposes. I.E: How to sail a Submarine, Loading the Torpedo Tubes, etc.
@@UchihaPercy I was just being snarky 😀
I hope Taiwan keeps them as museum ships! They will not be used in combat, to defend Taiwan, for their mission would not even be suicide missions. They would stand NO chance against China's subs and surface fleet!
Electrics can be very quiet, especially at low speeds. I wouldn’t count them out entirely.
If not for the image of a submarine on the thumbnail, I'd have thought we were going to be shown some of the WWII destroyers, cruisers, and battleships still in service with various navies -- many of them American WWII-vintage ships. And of course we shouldn't forget the Iowa class battleships still in mothballs but capable of reactivation on fairly short notice and most recently upgraded in the early 21st century (so not even as far out of date, operationally, as the nuclear carrier Enterprise was by the time she was retired).
A well maintained surface ship at 80 years old isn't anything like as scary as even the best maintained sub at the same age...
Kommuna was recently badly damaged by Ukraine in a missile attack.
It's justice blowing nessy out of the water. It's old junk!
I’m
Gee I was wondering why the framinstaber ring was stolen from the museum ship USS Lobster last year .
There is another way to get WWII sub spares …….
Try not to go below 400 ft (120 m) in this almost 80 years old pressure hulls, if sleeping with the fishes isn't all that appealing...
⚱⚱
Oil rig divers go quite lower than 120 meters on flimsy equipment supported by a greater internal pressure than just 1 atmosphere...
Apple and oranges of course, but so many “new subs” being lost with all hands during sea trails... I don’t think fear of what’s old and tested is logical.
Not going to mention those 3 american subs and the 3 soviet (1 Russian) which had “new smell issues”, in respect for their crews (families)
@@RebeccaCampbell1969 80+ Jahre old stahl ist far from elastische und Flexibilität of a living Fleisch. That pressure hull must be teaming with microcracks from fatigue. If one of those boats are ever to dive, it mustn't go ever tiefer than 12 m (Sehrohrtiefe)!
😰😰😰
400 ft was the original test depth of the Balao and Tench class boats. I wouldn't trust it after 80 years though.