George R.R. Martin explains where Tolkien got it wrong
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- During his visit to Staten Island for the "Game of Thrones" themed night at Richmond County Bank Ballpark, A Song of Ice and Fire author George R.R. Martin talked about the shortfalls of his fantasy book predecessor, J.R.R. Tolkien.
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Is there honestly anyone alive who finishes reading The Lord of the Rings, puts down the book and lies awake in bed at night staring at the ceiling, wondering what taxes are like under Aragorn's rule?
Only Martin I guess 😅😅
@kill mnoj Tolkien is known for being a perfectionist also. Rewriting the books multiple times. Its simply Tolkien didn't care too much about economy or government info, Unlike George here. Tolkien focused on making a world with languages, deep lore, and world building which he very much accomplished. Lotr does have plot holes, but not too many. Edit: Especially the movies had plot holes. The book has one that is commonly disputed, but even that one can be explained that it just doesn't make any sense for the eagles to fly to Mordor.
Fucking no, that would be insane.
@Infectious Legume Man you really learn more surprising things about his legendarium everyday.
@@diamondsurviver8461 It's not even a plot hole. Tolkien explained it by himself in one of his appendices, that Great Eagles answered directly to Manwe and only to him, so they could not be forced or asked to help with the ring destruction until they wanted it (or Manwe wanted), and they definitely didn't, since Valars perceived Sauron as Middleearth issue which was supposed to be sorted out by 'middle earthlings'.
at least Tolkien can finish a story
In silmarillion Tolkien die,AND he's son finish the book.
@@javideldiablo440 --- It was just put together from notes anyway.
@@javideldiablo440 The trilogy was completed. GM can't finish his story for shit.
@@ItsNotaTuhmah Man I said the story that completed his son was the silmarillion
........ - shots fired.-
The largest difference is that Tolkien writes like a linguist penning a myth and Martin writes like a sociologist penning a journal
this!!
There is a vast gap of nearly half a century between them, Tolkien was pure literary genius , Martin is a modern novelist.
Unquestionably Martin had to consciously or subconsciously fill in Tolkien's shoes.
That means you've not read his work
@@ROYAL_REBEL Just because you don't agree with a literary opinion doesn't make either of us right.
@@jasonmichaelmorgan6207 I’ve read both. Tolkien is for kids, GRRM is for adults.
This just shows me Tolkien knew how to end a story and Martin does not.
😂👍
What is more Tolkien finished his book in half of third part. Then he wrote a lot of unnecessary things. I hope Martin won't make this mistake.
@@smartinertiarc3039Not a mistake, and he won't.
@@smartinertiarc3039"unnecessary things"? Poor, poor dummy
@@mwvidz324 Because final book will never get written given his continentally slow pace with Winds of Winter. He would have to be longest living and ever energetic elderly man to have a chance to even get halfwaythrough dream of spring...
It was called "Lord of the Rings" not "Tax and Trade Policy in Middle Earth".
And it's actually available to read as a completed story!
Tolkien fanbyos are perpetually mad that ASOIAF is a better written story in literally every way than the fairytalesque Lord of the Rings
@@duolingoowl920so that is why season 8 is the best thing ever and ASOIAF is a complete story, huh? oh wait...
@@CursedAnqxl What your stupid ass doesn’t realize is that you’re proving my point- DESPITE not being finished, it’s still better than the complete Lord of the Rings.
@@duolingoowl920Is it? Because I don’t find myself inclined to re-read ASOIAF as much as I want to with Tolkien’s works. Also I can live without having to read the line “Fat pink mast” in a serious context ever again.
@@joeysalazar98 Asoiaf is so packed with themes, details, and rich world that its fan base has remained strong for the 10 years since George published the last novel.
People rereading the work over and over and over… somehow I doubt Tolkien would have ever had the same if he never released the last two books
Tolkien spent 11 years writing a LANGUAGE for his novel. Believe me if he'd wanted to get into the sorts of detail that Martin is asking for, he would have. Tolkien wrote about what he thought was important. It took him a year to write the last chapter of LOTR because he kept rewriting and thinking about all the detail....he wasn't someone who "accidentally" forgot to put something in the books.
correct, just a slight difference, he spend 40 years writing a novel for his language. He made a language, but felt that a language needs a story to really 'work'. I think it's very cool how he worked completely the other way around from how most writers work, first the story than the language.
He just wasn't interested in economics. He said that in several letters. But also, he tried to create some epic myths, in the style of Beowulf and others. Those stories never told about the economics and politics. It would not fit the style of storytelling Tolkien used
Excellent point!
What video did you watch? Because I never once heard George say that Tolkien "accidentally" forgot to put something in the books. You just made that up in your own mind. George is simply saying that Tolkien doesn't show the internal conflicts that are part of holding onto power. Someone like Theoden has conflicts with Saruman, and Wormtongue but these all come from the outside and can be traced to Sauron. And once Sauron's influence is gone, everybody lives happily ever after as if there are no internal conflicts within society. This is a big difference from a Song of Ice and Fire which is based more on reality.
Amaravi Well after all it's supposed to be fantasy.
Exactly this is just ridiculous what Martin said is ridiculous he should be ashamed
Tolkien: "Here are The Silmarillion, The Children of Húrin, The Fall of Gondolin and The Book of Lost Tales"
Martin: "Yeah but what about Aragorn's taxes"
It tells more about George R.R. Martin than about Tolkien.
GoT is nihilistic slop and its popularity says a lot about our times...
He created (and didn’t finish) ASOIAF mainly to spite Tolkien
@@EsotericIntelBoo Hoo
@@EsotericIntel All these comments of Tolkien fans coming after George with such vitriol seems weird to me given he only made one small criticism (not a very good one imo) of Tolkien in this video. You people seem to have painted this picture of him in your head where he's this arrogant fool who thinks he's infinitely better than Tolkien because "muh realism." When in reality that couldn't be further from the truth. George has stated many times that he is a massive fan of Tolkien and respects him greatly. Also while ASOIAF has A lot of dark, brutal (sometimes unnecessary) moments, it is far from nihilistic slop. It's kinda crazy how a lot of GRRM's hate comes from people who've never even read his books and just heard the general consensus of "Oh yeah GOT that show with sex, dragons, and people dying." and assume that's just all it is (not to say there aren't genuine criticisms to be had with the series, I'm too tired to list em but they're there.)
@@petergriffin6208I've read all Grrm 's Asoiaf works and additional works. Know all this about Grrm being a Tolkien fan and so on BUT to come out with a Pathetic notion about Aragorns Policies and taxes is just crazy. Tolkiens ended LOTR, hes not going to start another bloody book about Aragorns Reign. As an author GrrM should know all this and it just seems to me that he's just got to bloody big for his boots.
To firstly put his work on par to Tolkiens then secondly to criticise it with nonsense then thirdly big up his work is just unbelievable. And yes it doesn't matter if it's his one and only comment, I knew it was too good to be true and hes just exposed his true colours, especially so due to his popularity and the many comparisons made between both Authors and their works. Lost my admiration for Grrm instantly, it was inevitable.
To think his work is in anyway akin to LOTR and Tolkien himself is a Joke.
If you know anything about Tolkiens history, his Scholarly endeavors, his varied academic pursuits, his literary poetic pursuits in languages and his many other achievements you'd surely come to the realisation that to compare the likes of Tolkien with a script writer for telly who then had some literary pursuits it's like GrrM is a drop in the ocean whereas Tolkien is the ocean. Fk me really pissed me off has George, what a Joke!
“It is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life.” -Bilbo Baggins
True.
Hobbits taught us to reenjoy the extraordinnary in the ordinnary things of life
"A wizard is never late. He arrives exactly the moment after he's done his taxes."
Nicely done
And Bilbo is hiding his treasures from adventures with the dwarves 60 years ago because he is afraid of the shire tax office.
Beautiful
you mean a angel/demigod pretending to be a wizard, god the hatred i felt after finding out
@@colorpg152What? Why would you feel hatred?
Tolkien was in world war 1 he was in the trenches and came out of that experience to fill children born far past his death and cultivated imagination and creativity in us he could’ve just been another broken sad man but no he created the greatest fictional story ever he’s a legend among legends
Just like Frodo walking past the dead marshes, could be a inspiration from Tolkien in WW1 walking on those wooded plates on the trench mud and sees dead soldier corpses on those bomb hole covered with rain water when they wanted to take cover but got shot
That's cute.. Jack kirby beats anything tolkien👊
I appreciate what you’re saying but I just have to add one thing! Tolkien was very opposed to fairy stories, including his own works, being used as “children stories.” The hobbit was indeed written as a children’s story, but the LOTR and the Silmarillion are for everyone! Read On Fairy Stories, an essay by Tolkien, for a great deal of insight into the mind of the man.
I had absolutely no idea he was in WW1. And he went on to write those books? Dear God, mad respect to that man. I read them as a child probably 30 years ago, so my memory is obviously a bit foggy trying to remember all of the details, I should read them again. Have you read any of Martin's Drizzt books Bob?
@@AnthonyJstark-vz4so what?
“Finally after a lifetime I have finished my stories of a created universe spanning 10,000 years from the birth of the universe and all the origins of all living things. I spent 11 years creating a complete new language to fit into this world and wrote backstories and lineages to every single character including trees. I can now end the story with a new hero King and all evil being eradicated. At long last a beautiful story and world comes to an end…”
“Eh boss what about Aragorns tax policy?”
“Oh bollocks.”
😂😂😂😂 I have a hernia now you prick
Perfect!
i cant belive tokein didnt spend another book worth of information about middle earth taxes after lotr ended, ill never forgive him
Martin is just pissed that he lost Epic Rap Battles of History to Tolkein.
I was just waiting for that comment lol!
Hee didnt just lost. He got destroyed
This was before the Rap Battle was made...
😂
lmao
It's simple, George: Aragorn's rule was NOT the point of the story in The Lord of The Rings :)
Exactly!
👏
You're a real 1.🤜🤛
Perhaps he did not realize that the name of the last part of the book is "The Return of the King" and...The End. Not "Anthropological and sociopolitical analysis of the years of the Rule of King Elessar Telcontar".
That's why he is writes fiction. Everything starts with the word "If". ;)
I’ll believe Martin’s got a point in how to end a series once Martin ends his series
He can't make a point until he ends his series? By that logic any non-author can't criticize a book. You're a moron
"In these cynical days when swashbucklers cannot be presented without an ironic subtext, this great 1938 film exists in an eternal summer of bravery and romance. We require no Freudian subtext, no revisionist analysis; it is enough that Robin wants to rob the rich, pay the poor and defend the Saxons"
That was Rodger Ebert on "The Adventures of Robin Hood" and I think it applies here too.
Great pull, and great film.
The only thing that went wrong with Tolkien and his work was....
God took him before he could give us more.
Exactly.
god does not exist.
@@CarlosAugustoScalassaraPrando 🤓
@@CarlosAugustoScalassaraPrando Wow. Very smart. So thoughtful.
@@CarlosAugustoScalassaraPrando wow astute observation Mr. Intellectual
Tolkien was also a eminent professor, wrote a leading commentary on Beowulf, and completed his books without of getting a nice cut from HBO
JJ C
Technically, Tolkien didn’t complete his Middle Earth book collection. See the Silmalarion
Fraser Souris yeah but he died before he could finish it
No offense his son didn’t have the imagination of J R R Tolkien, so the Silmalarion is a little wonky.
Tolkien was multifaceted for his time and circumstances. A veteran of the horror of trench warfare. A compassion developed from those real life experiences ( unlike an SJW where it's based on how their feelings are hurt), an intellectually driven man with the work ethic to create and oversee a true work of lasting art.
Hence, deserving of legacy and respect.
@@FraserSouris but he finished his four most important books!! The story was told and done@
I could never imagine sitting down with a book and thinking, “what in the bloody hell are the tax policies?!”
Martin seems to forget or ignore that LOTR is, according to Tolkien's fiction, written by the characters themselves, while he only acts as translator. Therefore, "he ruled wisely for five hundred years" makes perfect sense since that's how Frodo, Sam and whoever else contributed to the text perceived Aragorn's reing or simply how they wanted to end their tale. They might as well have used "and he lived happily ever after"...
No he doesn’t because it isn’t part of the comment. As he explains in this clip a point of his writing is to get across how it is for a ruler to rule. he knows it’s not important for the story of lotr, he’s not claiming it would be, all he is saying is that for HIS STORY the policies and struggles of the court is necessary.
@@No_Relation_666 And yet he never actually explains how Westeros is able to economically function despite years of debt and war. Cersei should have been starving by now. The minor lords of the Riverlands should have overthrown Frey for the allying with a man who burned all their fields right when winter's round the corner and there should be no people left in the North anymore considering Robb took max of them south, the rest fell victim to Ramsay and Thenns and Winterfell burned down, probably destroying years worth of stored grains for winter.
He says realism is necessary but there's an awful lot of plot conveniences in his story that supposedly meant to show the grim reality
@@shannah151able that’s like exactly the whole point of feast, what? The point is it’s not functioning after that. It’s falling apart
@@No_Relation_666And the other guy meant that things should've fallen apart long before that
@@Hypogean7 so right after stuff happens is too late for the consequences of that stuff happening? Got it
George R.R. Martin explaining why he will never finish his book series.
😆😆😆😆 He has to constantly be thinking about all the fine details I guess.
Is that the joke you're making?
Like who cares actually how did Aragon rule for the next 120 years to his death. The book name is Lord of the Rings and so it will tell the story about the ring and now, when the ring is destroid. Its happy ending and so you can say Aragon rules wisely in Minash Thirith, because literally nobody gives fock how his economy was doing in his empire. The story had already ended, so nobody cares about how Aragon ruled his country to his death after the ring was destroid.
Should be titled: "Where George R.R. Martin Got it Wrong-Trying to explain where J.R.R. Tolkien got it wrong.
😂😂😂
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Amen
Guys, if this..mildly exaggerated title kinda boils your blood (which seems to be the case for some of you in the comments), GRRM has always been vocal about his love for Tolkein and LOTR. Tolkein has been an inspiration to him and he even said he revisits those books time to time to this day.
But at the same time, these are the questions that HE wanted to explore in HIS story, and these are valid questions. You can love something, and you can still wonder about these stuffs.
I love LOTR, and the themes it tackles, but I also love ASOIF for its dives into questions such as these. Such as "This guy is a great person, but would he be a great ruler?"
GRRM isn't talking about what Tolkien got "wrong", he's saying the stuffs he wondered about LOTR and the stuffs he tackled in his story. If it can be said that Tolkien set a convention, what GRRM did is a deconstruction. Not so hard to love both sides of the coin.
These kinds of 2/3 minutes videos of writers are snippets of larger conversations/interviews.
@@oldschoolgamer-w4u I *am* pasting, because it's a kind of sad reality here that someone can seemingly pit two great writers with each other by just slightly exaggerating words in title, take videos out-of-context and it seems to generate a deal more conversations in comment section, (and this conversation is a proof of that), but click bait is still a common thing, so it should be up to the ppl to be aware of it and not fall for it.
And again, he doesn't even need defending here :).
Eight years later, we're still waiting for Martin's next book.
Well there're a lot of places that need their tax policies detailed!
Tolkien fought at the battle of the Somme in WWI. Widely regarded as one of the most horrific battles in history. Where hundreds of thousands of people died in the mud and the rain. That life experience went into his work, in a way the George R.R. Martin can't really ever even understand.
Yet he has the audacity to claim he knows and depicts the difficulty of war
He understands how to eat uncontrollably...
George read comic books though
The only thing George fought in was the dinner line
@@michaeldavis9190he does? he’s not talking about it from the perspective of a
soldier but a civilian
Yeah, what LOTR really needed to make it a true classic is account of Gondor's tax policy. Yep, that's it.
Hahah
Hahah yep. That's the sole reason we all read fantasy, or stories at all: to read about tax policies.
You’re missing the point. It’s not the tax policy or the “orcish final solution” or any of that. It’s those messy, everyday details that weigh us down. The things that make a civilization run aren’t always fascinating and imaginative ...but you can use those details to further your story and that’s what Martin is talking about here. There’s a sense of relatability amidst the minutiae that makes it easier to empathize with a character or his conflict.
manifestgtr Tolkien invented entire new fucking languages and cultures. My man just didn’t have time. The books took him like 40 years
manifestgtr what I’ve heard is that Tolkien didn’t like to give away too much details or information in order to keep up a mystery or something like that. I haven’t really read many of his books but I’m interested in him
Tax policies lol. Was Aragorn a republican or Democrat lol
'a republican or Democrat' lol imagine thinking that the american two-party system is representative of anything but a shred of the actual political spectrum
Makaan 69 you kid, are so ignorant. He was just making a point. No one cares of his tax policies or the way he ruled, how he differed from other town folks in his kingdom. Example, was he republican or Democrat. Just using an American analogy that’s all. Sorry you tried to correct ones comment, but instead looked like a lost child
@@Texasguy316 Here we go, Americans on the internet not realizing USA is not the world, volume 558746231.
Oof, you even literally call yourself 'Texas guy' xD Makes your cringy boomer comment 10 times cringier.
Makaan 69 Mark 1:15. Think about your soul, if your eternity. You’ve got a lot of anger towards a nation and for such childish and insecure reasons. You sound like a child. Ask your parents for money to buy the Lords word. Buy a Bible and accept Jesus. Sorry you act such ways.
@ I mean I love grrm the only ones I found offensive I replied them with same comment they won't see my comment ri8 it was like 3 years ago
Dude, please. You're not even a pimple on Tolkien's arse.
"The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water"
-George R R Martin (A song of Ice and Fire)
How vile.
@@Yesica1993 How vile? Do you never have to use the bathroom? Do you think you're just too good for it? Get over yourself and your pearl clutching
Lol.😊
“George R.R. Martin explains where Tolkien got it wrong”
Nerds everywhere: So you have chosen death.
FR !! everyone in here mad but can’t accept both are two amazing stories like bruh.
Being a Tolkien fan, I also felt that his stories had flaws. There is nothing wrong about making mistakes in writing.
@@juun9401 I think the issue here is that Martin is criticising Tolkien for not being Martin. He can’t accept that Tolkien has a different style, theme and focus to him.
I gasped. This man can't even finish hiss own book universe before picking holes in someone else's 😂 lol do love both storied tho
This should be top comment. No not this comment. The comment this comment is commenting about. Oh great elephants now what a tangled comment i have made.
"We never get answers to any of these things."
"laughs in lotr appendix*
You can feel how superior Martian wishes to feel over Tolken because he wrote the tax policy of every city in SoIaF
@@jasoncp3257 I cannot believe that mans audacity.
Lmao pretty much
@@jasoncp3257
Martin thinking world building is storytelling.
I mean yeah cool detail but finish your story dude pls
@@tygrenvoltaris4782 Tolkein is the genius at world building. Most create worlds around their characters, introduce "tax policies". Tolkein first invented the elvish languages, then created the world and characters.
This is one of the most unintentionally funny videos of all time
He didn’t write those things because they weren’t important to the story. There was more that WAS included that was an appreciation of beauty, of bravery, of loyalty, and of love. I, for one, am grateful to him for the immense background that he DID create- the myths and legends, the history, the languages (including their alphabets) for several distinct cultures, their songs and poems, their choices of food and drink (from the Orcs, to the Hobbits, to the Men, and to the Elves), the maps (including some from the same area but at various times in history), the flora and fauna of the various lands, and even creating some original artwork. I don’t care that the economy isn’t 100% fleshed out, or someone’s political ideas for after the events of the story. It doesn’t impact the story that was told, while things like the Elven and Black Speech both are used to great effect, as are the maps with sections written in Dwarvish runes and Elven Tengwar, etc. Just because you put RR into your name doesn’t elevate you to Tolkien’s level, except in your bloated opinion of your own “genius”. I do enjoy George’s books, and I appreciate the background that he’s included in them, but sorry, they are lesser works when compared to the towering creations of Tolkien. George saying that Tolkien “got it wrong” in some ways is a criticism that is only his opinion, and I see it as hubris in my opinion of George.
That's a lesson a lot of writers forget is that you don't include something unless it is important. It could be the big battle from 1000 years ago, or a "tax policy" implemented yesterday.
Well if you take a deep reading to it you will understand the importance of gondor in trades they have numerous ports that connects westerlings lands. Hence where they get revenues
I agree. I’ve always been told that for worldbuilding and storytelling you start with what you enjoy and you add what is necessary. Tolkien enjoyed languages and histories, Martin liked politics. Both are valid options for great books, but to call someone wrong for choosing not to include something they don’t find enjoyable and doesn’t fit the story their writing, that’s just being a terrible person. Tolkien didn’t care about that stuff, so he gave us a generic line that says he rules well. I think that’s safer than explaining what he did, since we can all agree that ruling well is good, and we can have our own ideas of what that looks like. If he described exactly what the policies were you’d fall into the political trap of not everyone agreeing on what ruling well looks like. Write what you enjoy and what’s necessary, and leave the rest to the imagination.
I fully agree, another point is that when lore points in LoTR are brought up, it is often unnecessary to explain the politics and economy of it because most of us have a pretty fair idea of how it works already. You can labour over how trade works but at the end of the day, we know that trade is necessary for a medieval civilization, and we can presume its happening whether it's explicit or not. All the things you've mentioned that Tolkien included in his books could not be presumed because they were unique creations, and their presence was necessary for the holistic view of the his world.
@@marvolofarhel1578 Very well said, I think introducing that subjectivity would also spoil the entire theme of "good vs evil" which is, admittedly, a bit cliche, but beautifully executed in Lord of the Rings. When readers are shown that Aragorn is a courageous, brave and kind-hearted person for 3 books, then his 'rule' is described and you find you disagree with his politics, I think that would spoil those themes. I think those politics work in Game of Thrones because George doesn't entertain the idea of "good and evil," his stories focus on power, which is far more realistic, but a lot less emotionally captivating, in my opinion.
Tolkien was contemplating whether or not to continue after the war was over. In his own words why he did not "...Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless - while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse..."
So you see, G.R.R Martin and Tolkien Had two completely different views on how and why to tell their stories. Martin likes to focus on those " regrettable features" while Tolkien wanted to write stories about overcoming adversity with hope and courage. rather than ruthlessness and political intrigue.
Truth.
+iceman27406 It's irritating when people treat Tolkien like an idiot who did not understand these things. He was a Great War veteran, he understood horror and moral ambiguity perfectly well. But he chose not to go there, most of the time - although people who think he can't go there have obviously not read The Children of Hurin XD
They also make elementary mistakes like complaining that Tolkien's villains are 'not realistic', when he never intended them to be. Sauron and Morgoth are Tolkien's concept of what evil would look like if it were given form. In that sense they are very realistic.
I think the basic problem is that most of the people who behave like this are not familiar with fantasy in general and are only coming to it on the basis of the success of Game of Thrones and the LOTR films, so they never look any deeper and don't know much about the vast scope of the genre. Even GRRM's 'dark and gritty' approach has been popular for a long time. I'm not sure how much they know about literature in general either - themes like GRRM's are as old as the Iliad.
+valar In summary: IT'S ALL JUST FANTASY, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT IN YOUR DULL AND FLESH-BOUND REALITY.
Georgie Bolimz
So...why did you watch this video?
valar umm... curiosity... I guess... but don't get me wrong... FANTASY is great... there's something about make-up stories that interest me more than the history of reality...
He ruled wisely and well for 500 years
And then he implemented a 7.5% sales tax
The end
😆
Confiscated every sword, and started an open border immigration policy with the shire.
This is perfect.
@@The_Custos Lord Aragorn confiscating swords? Are you mad?
Lol nice.
"But news flash
The genre's called fantasy. It's supposed to be unrealistic." - J. R. R. Tolkien in ERB.
you myopic manatee!
But no blacks in Middle Earth, that's too far-fetch.
@@halfadeaty There are black people in middle earth. They have been mentioned in other middle earth books. I think the problem is that they're making characters black who aren't supposed to be black. A movie about the holy Roman empire would make no sense if there were black people and Asians in the movie because its not historically accurate. Just as much as it would make no sense if there was a movie about Shaka Zulu and the Sengoku period in Japan would make no sense with Europeans running around. Tolkien is known for his carefully made and detailed world building so people changing his work according to their own interpretations would upset more hard-core fans. His silmarillion is basically a history book for the world of the lord of the rings and it has pretty clear descriptions of the people living in middle earth and how they looked.
@@fullmetaltheorist you do know the HRE had contact and trade with african and asian peoples right? Sicily was once part of the HRE (staufers) and that had not only european, but also arab, hebrew and moorish citizens. so yeah, depicting one or two black or asian characters in the HRE would make sense
@@callnight1441 One or two travelers isn't proof of anything. There were Samurai in Egypt as well but you won't see any historical drama put Japanese people in an environment they didn't migrate to in significant numbers. Sub-Saharan Africa and Europe didn't have much contact until ships became good enough to sail across vast oceans.
he’s not saying where tolkien got it wrong he’s explaining how his writing differs
Yeah, this title is absolute clickbait.
@@numberc8420 and the braindead tolkien fanboys took it personally and took to insulting Martin for it. It's pathetic. They really are the worst fantasy fandom I've ever encountered. They think LOTR is gospel and the Silmarillion is the Bible- flawless, the divine word of God. Unable to even be implied to having criticism towards it.
Exactly, everyone in this comment section got rage bated
What's worse, people are taking his words literally and not understanding why he brings ups taxing - believing he is complaining that Tolkien didn't explore such things - instead of seeing it as a way to make a point.
The funniest thing in the world would be if at the end of Game of Thrones it was all just a dream.......Frodo's dream.
or Hodor's
For Frodo !
If that is the case. Frodo must have had some good Longbottom Leaf.
Bran is in a coma since he fell from the window and it is all just an endless dream and nothing is real
Or a Westworld park.
When Tolkien's finger points at the moon, Martin examines the finger.
Worshiping Tolkien is extremely stupid. He's not the greatest writer to ever live. A child could pick up a pen and do better than him in one evening- and that's the beauty of the art. The way you all idolize and worship him as a God is pathetic, and border-line disturbing.
@@duolingoowl920It's just a personal opinion that happens to be shared by millions, maybe billions worldwide
that has to be one of the most ignorant comments I have ever read online.
@@duolingoowl920 I wouldn't say a child could invent numerous fictional languages and several centuries of backstory in an afternoon, but I agree that Tolkien wasn't the greatest, maybe one of the greats at the least, nor the deified figure some see him as. But we still must admit that his work was exceedingly impressive for his time and even now, and his effort and skill deserves praise. Martin too deserves praise for his works, as all good writers do, but we can still admit that his nitpicks are a bit silly and would've damaged Tolkien's narrative if included as heavily as Martin wished
@@duolingoowl920I think you’re misunderstanding how many of his “fans” look at him. I, for one, do not idolize him or anything. The Lord of the Rings is far from my favorite book. Hell, I like The Silmarillion more, which I never would have expected before reading it. But, also after reading his letters, I simply admire J.R.R. Tolkien. He was a very knowledgeable and intelligent man, one who could have easily become self centered and arrogant. Also, at least on a more “mundane” level, he was quite pessimistic. Another thing he could have become is one of those spiteful authors who write only to vent out their fears and frustrations about everything and everyone, with the result that reading them often has the only effect of depressing the reader. One of those people who maybe should have just kept a personal diary instead of publishing.
And yet, no. While subtly - or even not so subtly - also putting his personal fears and issues with reality in his work, he always made it chiefly and primarily about giving wonder and hope to his readers. And that is more than worth of admiration for me, even if J.R.R. is not my favorite writer.
To me, the main difference is that Tolkien wrote his works intending for them to be myths, not novels. He never claimed omniscience over his creation, in fact, he said he didn't know all about it and discovered a lot while writing, like he was discovering instead of creating. Myths are incredibly difficult because they take generations to grow. Myths don't focus on the mundane aspects, they reflect the main conflicts, values and beliefs of entire societies. It's characters tend to succeed or fail in grand or tragic ways, it's conflicts to resolve in epic/unrealistic ways, because they're not about just a good story. They're about how people understand the world and what they hold dear and sacred. And they are never the work of a single man. That is, until Tolkien of course.
Then you have fantasy novel writers. Less or more detailed, they take the forms and imagery popularised by Tolkien, but they cannot trascend in the way he did. They write more mundane stories. Good, bad, but just novels.
Yeah. That's the magic of the OG and TRUE high fantasy: to teach moral lessons that we will carry on for life. I mean, even Narnia that is a more of a fairy-tale with looser and softer worldbuilding has incredible moral and good lessons for the next generation, not to mention the Christian values that were shared by both Tolkien and C.S Lewis that were friends, btw
Tolkien is The Master, Martin is an apprentice...
Martin is not even an apprentice.
@@clairejohnson4633 I wanter to be subtle😂 But yes, you are right.
Tolkien wrote fantasy.
Martin writes fantastical historical erotica fiction.
We don’t need Sauron‘s health care plan.
We do.
Going by the orcs, he could do better dental.
What we really needed is the brand of toothpaste the Mouth of Sauron used. I'm quite interested how he managed to keep them in his gums.
Historical erotica? Ew. Does he write about Washington and Lincoln f**king?
@@criminallyautistic8372 isn't one of the themes of GoT is sex and boobies?
This just proves that Martin does not understand Tolkien. Tolkien, who was a devout Catholic, wrote LOTR as a kind of antidote to our modern cynical attitudes, which are exactly what Martin expresses. It is meant to be archetypal, about good and evil with no room for moral ambiguity.
This is because Tolkien believed evil was real, not just a human concept, or social construct, but a real and powerful force. This view of good and evil is expressed beautifully in his works, but somehow Martin completely missed it.
Tolkien most certainly did not belive or indicate in writing that evil was a separate thing from human nature.
In fact he write in one of his letters that as evil is the use of force to bend anothers will against their consent, and that the capacity for this was inherent in anything made flesh.
I need no channel youtube! That’s not what he’s saying; he’s saying that evil isn’t a human concept as in some subjective idea depending on perspective. Rather, evil is a very real thing that must be contested with good.
Zach Baird Yes, exactly. That’s one of the most controversial ideas nowadays too. Is evil a man-made concept or a real force? This is where Christians and Atheists clash, haha. It’s interesting to think too, that Tolkien was a believer and Martin had said he doesn’t believe...and that really shows in their writing. It’s kind of fascinating honestly.
@@zachbaird2851 Exactly.
"‘In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil. Satan fell. In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit.’
‘You can make the Ring into an allegory of our own time, if you like: an allegory of the inevitable fate that waits for all attempts to defeat evil power by power. But that is only because all power magical or mechanical does always so work.’
‘It seems clear to me that Frodo's duty was 'humane' not political. He naturally thought first of the Shire, since his roots were there, but the quest had as its object not the preserving of this or that polity, such as the half republic half aristocracy of the Shire, but the liberation from an evil tyranny of all the 'humane' - including those, such as 'easterlings' and Haradrim, that were still servants of the tyranny.’
"
...
"‘Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry and with only a fragment to read and of course without the earlier-written but unpublished Elvish histories [The Silmarillion]. The Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron, as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs. But in any case this is a tale about a war, and if war is allowed (at least as a topic and a setting) it is not much good complaining that all the people on one side are against those on the other. Not that I have made even this issue quite so simple: there are Saruman, and Denethor, and Boromir; and there are treacheries and strife even among the Orcs. [Besides], in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing, between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the fainéance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods'. The 'wizards' were not exempt. Indeed, being incarnate, they were more likely to stray, or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). Since in the view of this tale and mythology, Power, when it dominates or seeks to dominate other wills and minds (except by the assent of their reason) is evil, these 'wizards' were incarnated in the life-forms of Middle-earth, and so suffered the pains both of mind and body.’
‘So I feel that the fiddle-faddle in reviews, and correspondence about them, as to whether my 'good people' were kind and merciful and gave quarter (in fact they do), or not, is quite beside the point. Some critics seem determined to represent me as a simple-minded adolescent, inspired with, say, a ‘With-the-flag-to-Pretoria’ spirit, and wilfully distort what is said in my tale. I have not that spirit, and it does not appear in the story. The figure of Denethor alone is enough to show this; but I have not made any of the peoples on the 'right' side, Hobbits, Rohirrim, Men of Dale or of Gondor, any better than men have been or are, or can be. Mine is not an 'imaginary' world, but an imaginary historical moment on 'Middle-earth' - which is our habitation.’"
...
"‘With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin. We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sons and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable. I suppose a difference between this Myth and what may be perhaps called Christian mythology is this: in the latter the Fall of Man is subsequent to and a consequence (though not a necessary consequence) of the 'Fall of the Angels', a rebellion of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the 'World' in its nature: evil was brought in from outside, by Satan. In my Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable. Trees may 'go bad' as in the Old Forest; Elves may turn into Orcs, and if this required the special perversive malice of Morgoth, still Elves themselves could do evil deeds. Even the 'good' Valar as inhabiting the World could at least err; as the Great Valar did in their dealings with the Elves; or as the lesser of their kind (as the Istari or wizards) could in various ways become self-seeking.’" Tolkien letters.
it's funny because none of GRRM's books ever mention a tax policy either and his view of kings as either drunken fools or bloodthirsty tyrants is much more simplistic than anything Tolkien ever wrote.
i was gonna say the same thing, all of GRRM's kings just seem to all be Henry the 8th and other tyrants,
Never mind a tax policy, we don't even get a list of coinage out of Martin.
@@GoranXII I think it’s modern fantasy writers attempting to discredit Tolkien to make their own books seem just as good even if they lack
Its funny because GRMM wasnt discrediting Tolkien thats a huge misrepresentation of what he meant. All he said was how he put a different focus on his writing. If you were too look up what GRRM actually thinks of Tolkien its totally different he admires the guy and loved the books when he grew up. I really cant understand how people see this clip and are like yes GRRM is an A**hole because he was mean to my favourite author.
The Targaryen dynasty, prior to Aerys II, cycled between fair and just rulers (Jaeherys, Daeron II) and cruel tyrants that wiped out most of the people that could oppose the good kings (Maegor).
The depth of Tolkien's mythology is unsurpassed. And that is just the Silmarillion, a mere few hundred pages long. Much as I have enjoyed a Song of Ice and Fire, Tolkien is the Master of this art. I have been a Fantasy and SF fan since early 70's and whilst I can say there are some brilliant story tellers out there, none have come close to providing the depth, the tragedy, the valiant heroism, the sorrow, the beauty and the magnificence that Tolkien achieved. The Fall of Gondolin? Beren and Luthien? Turin Turambar? Just wow.
Interesting, but if Tolkien wanted to tell a story like that, I’m sure he would have. He certainly would have finished it as well.
He also respected the intelligence of his readers, who could fill in the blanks themselves, and not get bogged down in petty and boring social and political psycho babble.
Books, long before film and tv, were wrote to get the readers attention away from such earthly nuances!
Surprised he didn’t also criticize Tolkien for not revealing the bra sizes of the woman of Rohan and Gondor also?
he didn’t finish his main book, the silmarillion
@Bjnbbb-dk8lz you're an idiot. Lotr was his main body of work.
Just like he finished The Simalirion and The Unfinished Tales.
@halfadeaty Yeah, lazy prick, dying and all. He only ever finished one of the most influential fantasy series ever written, an entire world, several languages which are still studied and updated today.
Also Tolkien never explained what condom brand Aragorn used, as well as Arwen and Eowyn's tampon brands.
Hahaha! Snap!👌😂
Tolkien: and I didn't make my character ride a cactus!
Can *I* be Eowyn's human tampon?? At least for a little while??
These are the real questions we wonder as readers.
Given Tolkien was a Catholic, highly doubtful Aragorn used any contraceptive
Martin giving Tolkien advice is like a high-school football player giving tips to an NFL player
not really. both are succesful writers with decades of experience in the field who have written complex naratives and big worlds. they are very much equals
Worshiping Tolkien is extremely stupid. He's not the greatest writer to ever live. A child could pick up a pen and do better than him in one evening- and that's the beauty of the art. The way you all idolize and worship him as a God is pathetic, and border-line disturbing.
@@duolingoowl920Literally my point. Tolkien is not the greatest writer to ever live. They do the same with JK Rowling too. 😂😂😂 When in reality these writers did not venture into anything but fantasy. I think the best writers are the ones that travel away from their comfort zone to write in other genres.
@@duolingoowl920 grr, bad when people like tolkien but fine if everybody licks george's feet, grr.
@@joshuaj.chinda9873 regardless of what you think, I sincerely hope you don't write a book if this is your comprehension level.
He also created a world that was worth saving and knew how to have the story make a difference in that world. If Martin’s story ends anything like the show did, Westeros won’t really change a bit by the outcome of his story.
News Flash: I don't need to know about Aragorn's tax policy. He's the True King.
Hes mah kung
What was his policy about Twitter?
Tolkien is a legend
Samson peres sometimes yes, I'm currently writing a book about the 1920s, what sort of fantasy are u writing about? 😀😀
tolkien is GOAT
@@sheflashedus go back to the shadow
@@gacogandalf7696 you barely adopted the shadow, i was born it, molded by it, i did not see the light til i was a man
@@sheflashedus the ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent
GRRM is like that one tryhard on the dnd table questioning every single thing that happens at the table. He simply is unable to just ”go with it” :D
Tolkien didn't want to create too realistic world neither with general economic system nor with big hierarchy even though his world was thought out to the smallest detail professor Tolkien wanted to write in the style of myths and legends, which he did well, with the addition of linguistics to his works so due to that he didn't write too darkly because it wasn't necessary for his work, he went through the war he had seen violence and all that fear with a trash so I suppose he just didn't want to mention it
it's true, tolkien never asked the hard hitting questions like
HOW MUCH HAS SHE DRUNK?
HOW MUCH HAS SHE SHAT?
these are the things readers want to know!
based
Guys, if this..mildly exaggerated title kinda boils your blood (which seems to be the case for some of you in the comments), GRRM has always been vocal about his love for Tolkein and LOTR. Tolkein has been an inspiration to him and he even said he revisits those books time to time to this day.
But at the same time, these are the questions that HE wanted to explore in HIS story, and these are valid questions. You can love something, and you can still wonder about these stuffs.
I love LOTR, and the themes it tackles, but I also love ASOIF for its dives into questions such as these. Such as "This guy is a great person, but would he be a great ruler?"
GRRM isn't talking about what Tolkien got "wrong", he's saying the stuffs he wondered about LOTR and the stuffs he tackled in his story. If it can be said that Tolkien set a convention, what GRRM did is a deconstruction. Not so hard to love both sides of the coin.
These kinds of 2/3 minutes videos of writers are snippets of larger conversations/interviews.
Your comment is so polite. No anger, hatred, judgement or trolling. It’s hard to find people like you on TH-cam.
No. People wants a good reading. We want beautiful prose. Well I do. And nothing beats Tolkien's prose
@@chaddafoe3105 so thats how people call click bait nowadays? "mildly exaggerated title"? Interesting.
Martin is a creative man, but Tolkien's genius far outstrips him. One's historically driven fantasy, the other is a straight-up complete alternative mythology... taxes be unimportant haha
"Alternative Mythology" So Fantasy? Gotcha.
"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water."
-George R.R. Martin
Yep, an entire paragraph on Daenerys's diarrhea.
Is that an actual quote from one of his books?!@@zoebaggins90
Yes, realism is indeed the point Martin is making in this interview. You shit. You get diarrhea too. Diarrhea can in fact kill you in the wild, so it is mentioned in Martin's book. Cry about it
Seems like it. @@Yesica1993
Don't remember that quote. Where's it from?
The title is I inflammatory, Martin isn't saying he got it wrong. He's saying he left interesting questions unanswered
The difference is that Tolkien didn’t think that tax policies etc. were necessary for his world-building. He worked on building Middle-Earth for years and years and invented a world that is so vivid and clear to the reader, because of his wonderful skills in explaining how it all functions. If he thought tax policies important enough for his world, he certainly would have incorporated them.
Personally, I’m extremely grateful that Tolkiens world is not filled with bureaucratic stuff that would overstimulate the reader and not help with the plot in any way.
I appreciate that The Lord of the Rings is a trilogy and does not consists of 10 or whatever many books Martin wrote.
The trilogy in itself is content and finished. For me, it feels exactly right, maybe because of the “lack” of “unnecessary” additions to the story.
Well the LotR story was actually meant to be one book, until the publisher demanded Tolkien to split it into three volumes.
Every author writes what he cares about. 🤷🏻♂️ Im not interested in Powerplays and psychological warfare either. Never seen anything near GoT and after this video, I probably never will.
Plus I think tax policies and class systems just don't remain fantasy, they become much more grounded
Im sorry Lord of the Rings is shit lol its such a cheesy and terribly predictable story i cant stand these idiots who think George's work doesnt destroy tolkiens
@@lucasbinder6151 well that’s a very definite opinion that you certainly may hold… but don’t get vulgar with it. And I respectfully disagree… 😅
Tolkein created 15 languages for Middle-Earth, he set up a detailed culture, a interlinking history and a mythology for every race inhabiting it... but, no, you're right George. He got it wrong by not telling us who Aragorn had Gondor trading with and how he taxed his subjects 🙄
Man I Think you got click baited by this video's title. George was only explaining what he liked to talk about. He just used Tolkien as a contrast for example. Who said it was wrong was the fucking dumb video's title writer
@@felipebritto9554 Ur comment needs to be pinned , both are very diff authors and comment section is at war xD
To be fair I think he has a point with the Orcs lol. For such a prominent threat to not have a real conclusion it's kind of mind boggling. They couldn't have all just withered and died or ran away. And if they did that would be a rather easy thing to write, right? I definitely prefer Tolkien but I wish there was an answer to that lol.
@@Deadflower20xx it's pretty easy to assume that the orcs would be scattered into small tribes living in mountains and caves. Only reason they were ever organized in mass was because of sauron/melkor. Same goes for the haradrim
Yes.
Martin is in no Tolkien. Tolkien will live on forever. Once HBO stops making shows people will say “game of what?”
This guy really makes it difficult for people to like him
Big talk from the author literally standing on Tolkien's shoulders.
..while mysteriously still not being able to reach his full height.
He isn't even standing on Tolkien's toes!
@@PLuMUK54 He's licking them, begging for inspiration to finish his books.
Big talk from an author who will never complete his work
Martin needs more d..cks on their books
You see, I believe this is the problem with Martin. He feels like he has to explain absolutely everything. When he says "Winds of Winter is like 12 novels in one", he is saying the truth, because Martin couldn't just not tell 12 entirely different stories at the same time. He had to do it on a single franchise. Tolkien, who had as much detail and knowledge of his world as any writer could dream of having, decided to tell the story of the One Ring from beginning to end, and left it there.
The Lord of the Ring loses nothing by not spending 300 pages with the leader of the Haradrim that went to Minas Tirith. It loses nothing by not knowing to the smallest detail how exactly the hierarchy of the orcs worked within Barad-Dur. It loses nothing by not knowing three dozen names and backgrounds of the Corsairs from the South. Yet Martin has a physical need of having to tell *absolutely everything*. And so, instead of taking a couple of families, and telling the story of Ice and Fire from beginning to end, he had to take every single family and every single character from every single part of the world, most of which we wouldn't have given a single fuck about if Martin hadn't forced us to spend 500+ pages with them.
Not to say doing that is necessarily a bad thing. It's great to see how the whole world interacts with each other, what I mean is that, if the price of adding those novelties (because that's what they are), is never ending your story or having decades inbetween books, then it's just not worth it. Tolkien told a single minuscule story within TLotR compared to everything he had thought of. So he wrote other stuff, mainly The Silmarillion, where far more stories, characters, situations and plot points are presented in far less pages than whatever long Ice and Fire will end up being. If Martin could've at least been at the level of what he wanted to do, great! Brilliant! But he wanted far more than what he could handle, and this is how we've ended up here.
Edit: I also want to add that, at the end of the day, the way Martin sets up things makes Ice and Fire more like a romance drama with dragons than proper fantasy. I loved reading the books, he probably has the best written characters I have ever seen anywhere. But since the focus is so much in politics and social relations, the fantasy aspect of his work ends up taking a backseat to my eyes. Which is a shame, since I love the fantastical aspect of fantasy.
Your comment should be on top.
@@MrJanoo8 Because the one motherfucker usually stays completly out of Earth and it´s affairs which is commendable. In the entire history he did only intervene 3 times 1. during the creation of the dwarfs 2. during the fall of Numenor 3. when he caused Gollum to trip.
Re your last point, I think that's kinda the whole point with the plot: the people in Westeros generally don't believe in magic, they believe in religion and "science" (the maesters, who are radically opposed to magic), but they're gonna have to reckon with it because of Dany's dragons on one hand and the Others on the other hand (no pun intended). While the Lannisters and the Starks and everyone else are squabbling for the Throne (the Game of Thrones per se), there's this looming existential threat in the form of the Others and Dany's dragons that they do not believe in. There is a very sharp contrast, I think, between "magic" and "politics" which is essential to the story and that's why ASOIAF is not a traditional fantasy story where magic and supernatural beings are accepted by everyone as a part of life.
@@idek7438 Yep, reading back my comment after some time, I have got to agree with you. That last point it's more of an overall note than an actual criticism. I still think it's a shame, but it's a more personal thing, definitely. There is some charm to it being like this.
[Pasting my og comment here]:
Guys, if this..mildly exaggerated title kinda boils your blood (which seems to be the case for some of you in the comments), GRRM has always been vocal about his love for Tolkein and LOTR. Tolkein has been an inspiration to him and he even said he revisits those books time to time to this day.
But at the same time, these are the questions that HE wanted to explore in HIS story, and these are valid questions. You can love something, and you can still wonder about these stuffs.
I love LOTR, and the themes it tackles, but I also love ASOIF for its dives into questions such as these. Such as "This guy is a great person, but would he be a great ruler?"
GRRM isn't talking about what Tolkien got "wrong", he's saying the stuffs he wondered about LOTR and the stuffs he tackled in his story. If it can be said that Tolkien set a convention, what GRRM did is a deconstruction. Not so hard to love both sides of the coin.
These kinds of 2/3 minutes videos of writers are snippets of larger conversations/interviews.
I still love Tolkien books. He published his novels decades ago and it’s still amazing
"b-b-but you did it wroooooong"
- man who never got it done
Funnily enough, when finishing LOTR, not once did I think about Aragorn’s fricken TAX POLICY 🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, no one wants to read about Aragorn raising the VAT from 18% to 19%, to offset the infrastructure repairs after the war and shit like that. Stop giving interviews and finish your damn books !
Wasn't there suppose to be the 4th book after which talks more into politics before Tolkein died?
@Sean Clark I don't remember what it was about but I think I saw of Gondor and Rohan having an expedition in Rhun
@Brass Pilgrim That's false information; there was never a "Sauron worshipping cult" specified - stop making up stuff
Guys, if this..mildly exaggerated title kinda boils your blood (which seems to be the case for some of you in the comments), GRRM has always been vocal about his love for Tolkein and LOTR. Tolkein has been an inspiration to him and he even said he revisits those books time to time to this day.
But at the same time, these are the questions that HE wanted to explore in HIS story, and these are valid questions. You can love something, and you can still wonder about these stuffs.
I love LOTR, and the themes it tackles, but I also love ASOIF for its dives into questions such as these. Such as "This guy is a great person, but would he be a great ruler?"
GRRM isn't talking about what Tolkien got "wrong", he's saying the stuffs he wondered about LOTR and the stuffs he tackled in his story. If it can be said that Tolkien set a convention, what GRRM did is a deconstruction. Not so hard to love both sides of the coin.
These kinds of 2/3 minutes videos of writers are snippets of larger conversations/interviews.
@@oldschoolgamer-w4u Barely, if anything at all, of what you're saying is relevant to what I am saying. And I'm not really even defending him, cause I don't have to defend one of the most successful writers of fiction on the planet from criticisms that aren't valid- just merely gave context to the 2 minute video (which a lot already know) and pointed out the exaggerated title.
Tolkien said he "rules wisely and well" because explaining the tax policy wasn't part of THAT story.
People don’t seem to get that Martin isn’t bashing Tolkien. He’s simply saying that the ending of Lord of the Rings’ simplicity is what inspired him to do what he does with A Song of Ice and Fire. He wants to examine a story Tolkien never discussed, because he found that interesting.
@Robert J Fair. I just don’t like the title. He doesn’t say Tolkien got it wrong, he just was saying what he thought at the end of Return of the King.
Yes, a lot of fan boys are triggered without any reason (I love both authors)
Exactly!
And what exactly is he doing with a song of Ice and fire? not finishing the 6th out of 7 books for 12 years now, while releasing 9 other books in the universe where he didn't even finish the main story for.
Also he relies too much on shock value, killing off many of your main characters was a surprise, but doing the same in his prequel books just kills the enthusiasm or surprise.
@@klefthoofrobert787 I’m not defending him not releasing the next book. Though, speaking as an aspiring writer myself, I can definitely understand both burnout and being scared to even come close to finishing. But I didn’t even mention it, the video doesn’t mention it, and no one else in this thread mentioned it, so why are you?
Tolkien didn't need to use mindless sex to get an audience. He relied simply on intelligent story writing
BURN lol
Bingo Ringo ✊🏼
Why did martin write that uneccesary scene where she rides that cactus? What was he doing when he wrote those?
@@derpynerdy6294 lol he thinks his characters as human, and as human they are sexual, Don't accept all them to be one dimensional shit holes like LoTR characters.
@@jawadaziz5139 let's not beat around the bush. Sex sells. And to pretend that there was a deeper meaning to why else it was so heavily is just kidding yourself.
This title already sets a bad precedent. J.R.R Tolkien was a genius whose imagination went beyond his life. He not only created the most interesting and beautiful fantasy universe ever, he founded 2 languages (Quenya/Sindarin) and wrote the most successful fantasy novels in existence. Most importantly, G.R.R Martin would be nothing without Tolkien's pioneering mythology creating opportunity for new authors and a strong fantasy fan base.
Two languages? You do JRRT an injustice! Tolkien invented far more than two. Quenya and Sindarin are the most well known because of LOTR though. He also invented Khuzdul - the language of the Dwarves, heavily influenced by Semitic languages. He invented Adûnaic - a language for Men; Black Speech (the Orcs); Telerin (another branch of Elvish); Valarin (language of the Valar) and others he invented for his own amusement.
Don't you think it's a bit unfair to say that without Tolkien other fantasy author's wouldn't exist?
You forget that he also created elvish, and he created songs in it.
@@nawarmasijah5447 Quenya is high Elvish. Sindarin is the language of the grey elves of Doriath, which most of the Noldoran Elves of Beleriand adopted as their everyday speech.
Guys, if this..mildly exaggerated title kinda boils your blood (which seems to be the case for some of you in the comments), GRRM has always been vocal about his love for Tolkein and LOTR. Tolkein has been an inspiration to him and he even said he revisits those books time to time to this day.
But at the same time, these are the questions that HE wanted to explore in HIS story, and these are valid questions. You can love something, and you can still wonder about these stuffs.
I love LOTR, and the themes it tackles, but I also love ASOIF for its dives into questions such as these. Such as "This guy is a great person, but would he be a great ruler?"
GRRM isn't talking about what Tolkien got "wrong", he's saying the stuffs he wondered about LOTR and the stuffs he tackled in his story. If it can be said that Tolkien set a convention, what GRRM did is a deconstruction. Not so hard to love both sides of the coin.
These kinds of 2/3 minutes videos of writers are snippets of larger conversations/interviews.
When gigachad Tolkien tells you Aragorn ruled wisely and well you simply accept it, Martin.
The video title is really misleading, GRRM is not criticizing Tolkien but explaining how he wanted to explore something that Tolkien didn't. He's not saying Tolkien should have done that though
I remember watching the LOTR movies and I'm reading the books right now, and from what I've read about Tolkien online, I don't think he envisioned LOTR as a standard fantasy novel. He called Middle-earth a 'subcreation', which he envisioned to be an echo of God's truth. I think he saw writing LOTR as expressing his subcreation through literary and poetic means, not to replicate historical accuracy with fantastical themes written over it. Tolkien even described LOTR as a fictitious mythology of Earth's past.
Exactly. There wasn't even such a thing as the fantasy genre then. He was writing myths that dealt with deeper truths. He wrote histories that spanned eons. His world contains a creation myth, a pantheon of gods, epic songs and poems, and fully-fleshed out languages. It's mythology on a whole other level. Getting into the weeds about tax policy or sex would be completely out of place. I think Martin knows this though. The title is more incendiary than necessary, but I guess we all love Tolkien too much not to comment :p
dustinseth1
Yeah, I guess so. But I love both book series though.
Gweilo Xiu
I'll be sure to read it then.
That was exactly the point. JRR was a historian obsessed with ancient lore and hero's tales. All he wanted to do was create his own world with its own mythos.
+dustinseth
Here's the thing. The fantasy genre has evolved beyond what Tolkien, Lord Dunsany, and William Morris was writing way back in the day. People now want "realism" in their genre. They want fleshed out economies, cultures, government, everything!
The problem I have with Martin’s assessment of Tolkien - as much as I respect Martin - is that he’s ignoring Tolkien’s objective. Tolkien created a mythology, a narrative consisting of heroic characters doing heroic deeds. These characters transcend the mundane grind of life, and that’s what makes us want to read a story. Discussions of tax policy, racial strife, and prejudice are not really apropos in fantasy, Granted, I find Martin’s work entertaining, and he’s a fabulous writer; however, I don’t see anything heroic in his characters. The ones who survive are simply a. clever, or b. really damn lucky. Tolkien vs. Martin is analogous to romance vs. porn.
I think you're arguing with a wall
GRRM just said how he likes to write, his comments about Aragorn, for example, he just says he would give a whole context to the situation cause he is really into details and loves to talk about it
Don't bite the bait in the title, anyone who paid attention UNBIASED can see he never said "Tolkien got it wrong"
@@felipebritto9554 Thaaaaank you. This comment section is filled with people getting butthurt over something only the video maker said. I've no doubt that GRRM respects Tolkien immensely and I can't ever imagine him saying that what Tolkien did with his books was "wrong." All George is saying is that he likes his books to have a heavy focus on politics and economics and the only reason he brought up Tolkien was as a foil to his own writing style.
@@porkadillo9752 RIGHT???? IT'S EXACTLY THAT!!! He never said bad things about Tolkien. Man I can't believe so many people got click baited
romance vs. porn. LOL that is genius.
@@worganfreeman2694 Yess 🤣🤣
One does not simply critique Tolkien
He just did. Cry about it
@@duolingoowl920 lol that made me laugh a mean comment a year later. Thanks good sir 👍
To be fair, Tolkein's own biggest criticism is that LOTR is too short. But I don't think he meant there should have been additional story after Saurons defeat
I'm very proud of this comment section defending Tolkien. THE ONE TRUE KING
One "king" to rule them all
The comment section is nothing to be proud of. It's blind hate on Martin and it's obvious no one properly understood what Martin was talking about
@@adityabhalekar3506 Thank you...George never says anything bad about Tolkien in this video...the hate is ridiculous.
@@adityabhalekar3506 it isn’t blind hate. Martin is ignoring a simple artistic rule here. Art is subjective! Both have different goals with their works. To compare them is like comparing the Beatles with Coldplay.
@@Coldwater-sw6me sure.. but it is blind hate when you take Martin's words out of context, his point was that good people don't automatically make good kings, and yes while he was wrong in that comparison he didn't say Tolkien was crap doesn't deserve the shit he's getting in the comment section
Aragorn ruled wisely and well after Sauron was defeated. Martin hasn't finished his series yet. Very significant.
Came from future he hasn't finished the series
Lol it almost been a decade
@@libitina8284 HAHAH
Hi I'm from the year 484849200, he still hasn't finished.
@@craigtucker309 L M F A O =) THANK YOU !!!
So what I get from this is GRRM is critiquing Tolkien for not writing in the way GRRM would. What a take.
George is RIGHT and he didn't say that Tolkien got it wrong, he just said what we'll find by reading Tolkien and how it differs from his own books, and don't think he's being condescending on his master's work.
Basically: "Why didn't Tolkien turn his legendarium into a sociology thesis?" This guy's supposed to be a fantasy writer?
He knows his audience. 🤣
I get what you mean but no, he’s supposed to be a dominos delivery driver
@@lukasfolkner4618 he looks like one.
@@lukasfolkner4618
HAHAHAHAHA
Exactly
Tolkien wrote a fantasy, a myth not some quasi Marxist essay. Myths are meant to bi simple, but powerful, which is exactly what Tolkien achieved.
Also Martin's "deep" understanding of politics goes like this "X backstabs Y. Than Z backstabs X.... ad infinitum".
It's basically GRRM whining about how rich people are assholes. It gets old after a while. Heck, Tywin is more respectable in the show than he is in the book. The show-writers made him fantasy Machiavelli, but the book has him just be a rich douchebag.
@@HolyknightVader999 Tyrion was also more extremely good in the show than in the book, for instance the book version he was basically a rapist of a slave.
@@cool06alt I believe the word you're looking for is "Saint Tyrion".
you people see this one interview and start trolling him and say complete his books but he wrote a really complex story than lotr in this period and there was other interview where he said he was a fan of lotr and it was his inspiration to write asoiaf just watch that you'll get it. Here in this interview he's just saying tolkien didn't say anything about aragorn's rule may be that doubt made him write lotr even that is kind of inspiration just a 2 mins video and you guys are pissed off about one thing and while there are other interviews where he said many great things about lotr first speak some sense this is the reason why i don't like lotr fans, getting triggered even for very small issue
chalakapalli sai vardhan “he writes a really complex story than lotr” You mean he set up a bunch of loose ends that he promises to tie together in the end (it will make sense dude trust me its super complex) while lifting events directly from history yet dumbing them down tremendously.
"George R. R. Martin explains how little he knows about Tolkien."
Tolkien could write a compelling story without having to write about murdering infants in detail
The beauty of Tolkien is that he didn't set out to explain every detail to us - read his Leaf by Niggle and you will get a sense of why Tolkien was so popular even before the movies
I actually read that like a week ago. Nicely said.
Guys, if this..mildly exaggerated title kinda boils your blood (which seems to be the case for some of you in the comments), GRRM has always been vocal about his love for Tolkein and LOTR. Tolkein has been an inspiration to him and he even said he revisits those books time to time to this day.
But at the same time, these are the questions that HE wanted to explore in HIS story, and these are valid questions. You can love something, and you can still wonder about these stuffs.
I love LOTR, and the themes it tackles, but I also love ASOIF for its dives into questions such as these. Such as "This guy is a great person, but would he be a great ruler?"
GRRM isn't talking about what Tolkien got "wrong", he's saying the stuffs he wondered about LOTR and the stuffs he tackled in his story. If it can be said that Tolkien set a convention, what GRRM did is a deconstruction. Not so hard to love both sides of the coin.
These kinds of 2/3 minutes videos of writers are snippets of larger conversations/interviews.
Absolutely. I read The Hobbit as a teen and thought, nice story, sort of simple, looked at LOTR and thought 3 books! omg, that will take too long and just skipped around in it. A few years later read Leaf by Niggle....and got hooked. I understood it then, and then read LOTR, The Hobbit again, The Sil, the rest, still enjoy it all years later. .
The calibre of Tolkien is beyond this man
@@krishanchoudhury yeah, all the commenters seem to think he hates tolkien fot it. but he doesnt. hes just pointing out something
The caliber of Robert E Howard was far beyond (and before) Tolkien
would say it's unseen type of (caliber), unknown before, not yet repeated since...
@@rumrunner8019 in what exactly? extravagant imagination perhaps, what else?
@@rumrunner8019Howard was a mediocre fantasy writer at best- just because he came before Tolkien doesn’t mean he was higher caliber
Martin is like “sex? Bloody fight? More sex? Brutal murder? Sex? Did i mention murder? Oh yeah and everyone dies” 😂😂😂
Tolkien spoke in an ancient and forgotten language that GRRM cannot understand…that language is called “complete books”
instead of finishing his books, he was really out here..., giving interviews about tax policies?
Literally has an entire host of supporting appendixes and books to explain the history of lineage after lineage. The differing variations of Elves, the complete history of middle earth through the three ages and extensive backstory as well as an entire language with grammar rules all built from scratch, but apparently it wasn't deep enough..... bruh
George just gave one example to serve only as ONE example.
He is right, there is no discussion about it. He was just trying to explain how he writes, not that Tolkien ways were wrong, and showed a phrase - as example - that was poor in context. Where he says that Tolkien did not explained enough about the world?
@@felipebritto9554 I declare your post to be cope of the highest order
I think Martin is well aware of all his works. You miss the point here. Martin complains how little depth Tolkien gives to the everyday life of the kingdoms, kings etc. What their policies, economies, administration is like. Tolkien doesn't describe that even in his other works like Silmarillion, unfinished tales, history of ME etc. That's what Martin was talking about.
I disagree with Martin and like how Tolkien went on his works but you missed the point completely
@@felipebritto9554 George said some pretentious ass shit here
@@goodinternetuser1943 it's just text interpretation which most people completely failed here...
Have you watched the whole interview? I watched, I can say that you were poorly clickbaited and the question George Martin answered was not the one in this video's title
I love that George never specifies anything about the tax policies of his rulers, either.
That and Tolkien gives way more information than we even need to reconstruct some broad strokes ideas if we *really* want to. So.... not only does George not meet his own weirdly specific standard, he apparently didn't pay attention to what lore Tolkien *actually* wrote.
Marty doesn't seem to understand that Tolkien's works are more about the greater themes of the story and not the micro details of how much it hurts to get shot in the nuts with a crossbow.
When you read every single Tolkien book you realize that everything can't even compare to his world creating. It's just insane how enormous it is.
The only thing that compares is SCP, but that's only because it is a collaborative work.
@@EpicMathTime I would only put that even close to tolkien if we are just talking size, but depth and intricacy and meaning, nothing comes close to tolkien at all.
ummm.... warhammer
@@bcg6760 no where close because it’s made by a bunch of random people, so it’s very inconsistent.
GRRM never really gets into the minutia of his own world often, outside of describing food, he might mention that stuff like taxes are owed but no great detail of the laws and policies of the seven kingdoms.
"And then, Heimdall will blow his might horn announcing Ragnarok, and Loki will come in his cursed ship with the unworthy dead to wage war against Asgard, accompanied by the Jotun and the fire giants, and fall in ruinous combat while also killing Heimdall. The monstrous wolves Haiti and Skol will devour the Sun and the Moon, and Fenrir finally kills the allfather Odin, being slain by his son Vengeance. Then, Thor and Jormungandr will engage in deadly battle, with Thor finally slain the serpent. Covered in the poisonous blood of the serpent of Midgard, Thor laughs, exclaiming "I did it! I've finally slain the serpent of Midgard!", then Thor takes 7 steps and falls to the ground, dead".
GRRM: "but what was Odin's tax policy?"
that was a nice clickbait title
+Gabriel Brennan my first thought down to the letter
+Gabriel Brennan I think it's kinda accurate, why do you think that?
+daddyleon I meant that the title sounds unnecessarily accusatory of a renowned author. Most people accept Tolkien as a great writer, so saying he missed something is bound to get attention. Martin didn't really bash Tolkien though.
Gabriel Brennan Explaining isn't bashing, neither is wrong. And by the very nature of the profession it's very subjective.
+daddyleon Fair enough; I'd argue that bashing is usually unnecessary but that isn't what this is about. My point was that the video is titled to get peoples attention (which I guess is understandable from a marketing perspective. It just seemed a little over the top).
Yes, George, the whole point of the fantasy genre is to go into great detail on the economics and infrastructure of a king's rule
Why not? Makes the story more immersive. Personally, I detest obvious plot armour around characters.
Fantasy is not for a point, fantasy can be this, fantasy can be that, it’s fantasy, it can be to imagine, or to extended the world in an interesting way,
There is many critics in this thread, with many great point’s, but you’re not a part of that
@@Yes_yep_yeah Considering Tolkien was a libertarian Monarchist his model of social economic relations would be social > economics. Given that Tolkien indirectly uses Oswald Spengler's civilizational determinism you'll know economics means absolutely nothing to the free peoples of Middle Earth. Like Gondor's wage relations cannot be compared to Sauron's caesarism which will determine the fate of the economy. Also, the plot armor critique is so repetitive and dull considering middle earth doesn't begin with bagg-end. This is how I know you've never read the novels from the similarion to the appendices which literally talk about important civilizations like khazad dum and arnor collapsing and the deaths of protagonists like isildur and even balin in the latter. Just like Martin you see these fictional universes as food for your selfish nourishment and not as an expression of peoples psyche, go back to watching phantom series's like one piece and complain about plot armor to their patrons
@@Yes_yep_yeah cause people are fans of fantasy are babies
@@potatogaming7044 yasss, ROAST him friend!
A very misleading title. GRRM doesn't dislike Tolkien, he's just outlining the differences between Tolkien's genre of High Fantasy and GRRM's Low Fantasy.
Martin wishes he could write like Tolkien who created the mytho-poetic genre. He created epochs and ages, worlds with maps and legends; people groups and each of their languages, which some people actually speak now.
There's writing and then there's worldbuilding. Martin's characters are more depthful, realistic, and emotionally poignant than any of Tolkien's fairytale archetypes.
@@duolingoowl920 Nah.
@@duolingoowl920i think Frodo getting ptsd from his hellish journey to destroy the one ring, being unable to return to a normal life after it and sailing to the literal Middle-Earth's Heaven to heal himself is emotionally poignant enough even for a chosen one hero.
Teories says that Tolkien based Frodo's trauma on his own for he was a WW1 vet, and as he was also catholic i believe Frodo sailing to the Undying Lands(Middle Earth's Heaven) shows Tolkien's hopes about the after life.
So Frodo is everything but a fairy tale archetype
@@shivanshsharma3487 yep
Tolkien will finish "Winds of Winter" before George Martin.