@@PhilFake-ew7wk It's not an ergonomic tool. It's too expensive to cast a tool for that. They would have been found everywhere. It doesn't explain the relief patterns around the holes. Or why some were found with wax. The solution is not what could it be used for but what meets every condition/evidence.
I doubt the gold wire hypothesis because there were/are much easier ways to plait or braid wire and pulling gold braid through a holes would have badly scratched the valuable soft gold
SOLVED....the woman on TH-cam site ...makecraftdo... used the dodecahedron to make a glove.....The different size holes are for the different size fingers. The great woman solved this 4 years ago.
Regarding the Roman Dodecahedron, the proposed purpose that I like most is “Candle Holder”. -The holes fit various sizes of candles, since there was no standardized manufacturing -Heavy and stable - very important with a burning candle -Will not catch fire when candle burns down -Rings on each face catch dripping wax (which was found on some of them) -The ball feet keep it stable on irregular surfaces -The Dodecahedron are found in the northern parts of the Roman Empire where winter nights are longer and candles were more necessary and valuable.
@@RogerMondo it's not what 'could be used for' it's what meets all conditions/evidence. They would be found in Rome if that was the case. Besides too complicated and expensive to make to be a candle holder.
A few counterpoints. 1. Too expensive for that purpose, 2. Some would have been found with wire, which provides better security. 3. Counting and seals continued after the disappearance of Roman culture but such a handy device did not. Why? 4. Since the purpose was not described in any text, and I would think the voluminous Latin texts would have do so, it is more likely two things: A. a trade secret and knowing how to read a counting device is not a trade secret and B. it is connected with something that disappeared when these objects vanish from the record. A recent suggestion is a chain weaving device and that fits the criteria.
@@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve Using as a cash transfer certification device fits all the evidence. Found on military sites not found in Rome, difficult to copy, found with money hoards, found with wax traces. You need to understand cash transfers.
They are for weaving gold wire into fancy braided chain. After you've woven the wire into an 7" long piece lets say, you can reduce it's diameter by feeding it through progressively smaller holes whilst maintaining the integrity of the braid. This also lengthens the chain. Goldsmiths of the Roman era would have been familiar with this technology. Also likely why they are associated with gold hordes.
@@TheMuskokaman Then why are they only found on military sites at the outer extent of the Roman Empire - none found in Rome. None found with wire still attached. Any solution MUST meet all conditions.
@@sailingmrnice They are found in temples, theaters, burials & residential buildings not only on military sites. Whether they found any in Rome is quite irrelevant to the purpose of the object. Not to mention the fact that Rome & the entire Italian peninsula is practically bereft of gold or any other metal ores. So I'm not surprised we have found none YET in the Italian peninsula.
I just watched "Solved? The Roman Dodecahedron" Amy Gaines TH-cam channel where she uses it to make a chain and ropes which looks a lot like Roman chains. She shows footage of herself doing it. You might wanna watch her video.
@@sailingmrnice who says it has to be a single purpose tool, maybe thats why it was developed in such a way, perhaps it was a roman version of a multi tool, which would explain why so many theories about its usage are plausible
ROMAN DODECAHEDRON - TESSERA ARCA (KNUCKLE BOX) The recent discovery of another Roman Dodecahedron in England has reignited the debate as to the purpose of this unusual item. All manner of bizarre theories have been suggested, but strangely none have been correct. Such suggestions range from celestial measuring devices, sacred objects, gambling dice, cunning weapons of war, candle holders and votives, distributors of dog treats and even a device for knitting the fingers of gloves (which it can be used for, just as it can be used as a paperweight). The dodecahedrons are in fact a Tessera Arca (Knuckle Box ring sizer) and were used specifically to measure the fingers (knuckle) in order to size rings that were made from coins . Back in the day if you wanted a ring made from precious metal the easiest way to do this was to use an old coin. However this practise of destroying legal tender was just as illegal back in the day as it is in most countries today so the craftsmen and women who offered this service were usually transitory and highly secretive about their trade. This accounts for the service not being available in the Mediterranean (heart of the) Roman Empire, and generally practised in the North-West of the Empire. As such no dodecahedra have been found outside this region to date. The client impressed and encouraged by the sheer craftsmanship of the dodecahedron, that was a remarkable feat of engineering skill in those days, would slip their chosen ring ringer or thumb into the 12 available holes of the dodecahedron until the correct fit was ascertained. The craftsman would then place the coin to be used over the hole using the surrounding nodules to hold the coin in position whilst it was scribed from the opposite side (from within the dodecahedron) with the outline of the circle. The coin could now be removed from the tessera and worked. Firstly a hole would have been drilled and cut in the centre of the coin. in the centre of the coin, almost as wide as the guide mark. The coin would then be placed on a tapered metal spike and hammered with a soft mallet so it folds over until it makes a flat ring. A bit of filing and the ring is finished and fits perfectly. A skilled technician could thus create a ring whilst his customer waited, in just a couple of hours, and then on receipt of payment disappear into the shadows. Of course there were easier ways to size a ring, they could have used a simple bunch of sample rings, but this would be much more conspicuous and far less alluring than a dodecahedron placed on a dimly lit tavern table, probably with a small candle lit inside to accentuate the object and add to its mysticism and curiosity. The tessera was not just a tool, it was a shop window advertising sign. And of course if the craftsman were caught in possession of a dodecahedron, well the authorities would be totally baffled and have no better idea of its actual use just as we do today. It is hardly surprising therefore that there are no records of dodecahedra being used in ancient Rome or openly anywhere else and that several dodecahedra have been found with coin hoards. It is more than likely that the service and the dodecahedra were not even Roman in origin, and more likely to be Galic, Celtic or performed by some other person. Certainly the service would not have been available to respectable wealthy Romans, who in any case required a much grander design of ring. Tessera rings were mote than likely offered only to the Plebecites and drunken soldiers and indigenous tribes.
@@sailingmrnice theres a recent 40 min long video its from 20ish days ago, this is a cyphering tool, with the addition of two wooden disks, and matching dodecahedrons you could encode the whole roman alphabet, then decode it at the other location, and decyphering such an amount of combinations makes it viable to be used for war. the reason that theres wax on this is when youre finished with cyphering, you leave the face of the dodecadedrons impring so the receiving person knows which face to use to decypher. the video is brilliant.
@@ZaJaCltAbsolutely. I think though the disc would have been matched to the hole opposite the seal, not the seal disc itself, meaning you needed all the pieces to solve the cypher. I think using the seal disc hole directly with the wood disc alone could require a decoy cypher to lure into the wrong more direct match.
Until we find written evidence of its use I wonder if we will ever really know its true purpose. It could well have missing parts which have perished. The biggest clues we have so far are what they are found with, the approximate time of use, what they are made of, how they are made, the differences between each one found, the lack of wear marks and where they were found. The more that are found the better chance we have of explaining them. I like it that lots of people are coming up with different ideas, conversations, discussions and arguments. Our best hope is that humans made them so humans should be able to solve what their purpose(s) is/are.
The dodecahedron may very well be the only surviving item in a cryptography system. The wax was to seal the encrypted message. All were found at military bases. An encrypted wheel fit in one of the many round holes, part of the coding system. The different wheels and holes all had a particular cyper. Much like the different drum choices on an Enigma machine led to cypher scrambling. Anyhow, the round hole was stamped into the wax on the cyphered letter from the author. The receiver, who had an identical dodecahedron, matched the hole, added the correspinding cypher wheel, and unlocked the message. A good description of this on another channel. Fascinating proposals.
@@beingaware8542 If that was the case an explanation is needed to explain the different sizes of the dodecahedron and why none were found in Rome/Italy. Any solution must fit all conditions/evidence.
Making gold chains. You have a similar idea but put a dowel through two holes. At the base weave a wire around the knobs on one side. Stitch through the loops and work your way down the dowel. Then you can pull the wire chain through smaller and smaller holes until you have a small, woven, gold chain. Credit to Amy Gaines TH-cam channel.
@@purdunetae2995 that doesn't meet all the evidence/conditions. Just because it can do something doesn't mean it was. Meet all conditions for a possible solution.
@@purdunetae2995 Why would they make an expensive casting when a wooden jig would suffice? Why are they only found at the furthest extent of the Empire and not everywhere? Why predominately found on military sites? Why found with wax remnants or with hoards of cash? Why are they different sizes? Why are some very small, barely 30mm across? Occam's Razor says the least assumptions gives the likely solution.
Wood wouldn't stand up too well. Pulling a woven metal chain through wood resizing holes. As for the far flung, trade secrets would be one guess. In a town or city you have permanent jewelers. At trade posts you probably have mobile jewelers who more easily lose things. This also might be a mobile device. A jewelry shop may use something more efficient because it can be bulky and large.
@@purdunetae2995 if that was the case they would have been found all over not just the outer extent of the empire. Nor does it explain wax remnant or presence with hoards of coins.
Nice try but totally unconvinced. There must be simpler ways, equally secure, of sending certification. Does the 'wax' supposedly found on two dodecahedra match the sealing 'wax' that was used by Romans? How does your system accommodate reverse order characters in the Roman number system (e.g. XXI versus XIX)?
Not just the fingers... you can knit the entire glove, the whole hand on a dodecahedron. But you could also make a garment, a sort of tunic with sleeves. It's possible your solution is also correct... the Dodecahedron may be a Multi-Use tool.
Sailing Mr Nice, eh? I think the enigma may have recently been solved, Len. The Roman Dodecahedron is an ancient Enigma Machine, for encoding and decoding military signals. The different sized holes are to fit a set of twelve differently-sized dowels fixed to paper rings with letters around the circumference. The small, spherical pegs engage in holes around the circumference of the circular paper rings. If we had the paper and wooden parts, its purpose would have easily been deduced.
@@sailingmrnice Not necessarily. Their use could have been to send encrypted messages between Roman camps which were predominantly where these objects were found, in northwest Europe.
Mr Nice, greetins from Spain. Apologies for the quality of the machine translation . All the hypothesis of the use of the Roman Dodecahedron, after 285 years, are not supported, have inconsistencies and always end with "it is not known", "I have no idea". On june 5, a coherent and reasonably logical hypothesis about its use appeared. It is a game where you insert coins and roll. Gold nuggets are placed in the icosahedron and it is also rolled. Everything is well explained on TH-cam: DODECAEDRO ROMANO: SE ACABÓ EL MISTERIO. (There is an automatic translator to English in the video settings). You can see signs of wear on the balls or knobs, in some photos, as a result of the back- and - forth friction on the table, a movement similar to that of billiard player before hitting the ball. It is a very reasonable hypothesis. Either one is on the side of the esoteric and mystery or on the side of logical reason. If after 285 years "students " and "scientists" were interested science could have the last word. Greetings.
@@sailingmrnice (Automatic translation). Every town has its games in Europe, solid dice from the 5th and 4th centuries (S. -V and -IV) have been found in the shapes of dodecahedra, icosahedron and clubes. Roman Dodecahedra have been found in territories with strong Celtic influence. The Celts arrived in Britain in the Bronce Age and Britain has deposits of cassiterite, tin, a component of Bronce.
Nice one , But thi s doesn't really explain the shape or the form. You can really make this in another shape and achieve the same thing , no holes , no Dodecahedron.
I think the lady who recognized it as a tool for making woven gold chains solved it. The holes are for a dowel, the knobs are to wrap the wire creating the links. Different sized holes are for larger or smaller chains. Furthermore, pulling the chain through the smaller openings uniformly reduces the diameter and lengthens it. The device can also be used to make braided cloth cord. It's been evident since they were first discovered these are a weaving device of some sort, the mystery was exactly what for and how it was used. th-cam.com/video/lADTLozKm0I/w-d-xo.html
@@MrJeffcoley1 that theory doesn't meet all the conditions/evidence. It's not what 'could' be used for it should what was it actually for. A cast metal object that isn't ergonomic wouldn't be a likely device for braiding. Doesn't explain where they were found either. And if you're using dowels make your device from wood too.
@@sailingmrnice It would be very difficult to make this device from wood. Besides which wood is softer than metal and not only would it wear but is easily broken. These objects are definitely tools for braiding wire jewelry or yarn into rope/cord.
@@MrJeffcoley1 nonsense. They'd be found everywhere. But the dodecahedrons are predominately on military sites at the outer reaches of the Roman Empire. Please explain.
What is your take on all the knitting channels, betting on that the roman dodecahedron is a tool for knitting fingered gloves or for producing sturdy ropes or chains? It makes sense in a military context, because the items produced with it are just in demand, especially in the northern regions, and it could be found with treasure hordes merely by merit of being a rather expensive tool?
@@stefanb6539 if it was for knitting gloves they'd be of a similar size. Some of these are 1"/25mm across - too small for gloves. It's also more likely that knitting implements were made of wood in a simpler form. A solution has to meet all conditions/evidence.
If you use weapons such as a sword or bow or spear, it's better not to wear knitted gloves... try that out... maybe leather gloves will work, but not knitted gloves...plus, in the cold, you would probably have thought of socks instead of gloves. .. and wouldn't it be much easier to deliver finished gloves to the soldiers than to deliver knitters to the soldiers? I know it's always better to think simply when it comes to artifacts like this, but I think in this case it's a little more complicated. I think it's a Roman enigma machine, there's a video that explains pretty well how it could have worked, why it's made from this material, the wax , etc
@@andreamuller9009 If used for cryptography there would pieces at each end. Ie one at the front and one in Rome. None were found in Rome. Any solutions must meet all conditions and evidence. Knitting fails because lost wax casting would be too expensive and the 1"/25mm version would be useless. Cryptography fails because the sizes vary and they were only found at one side of the communication.
@@sailingmrnice A campaign may have been decided in Rome, but tactical decisions were made directly on the site where the battles took place. Can I link you to the video? It explains a lot.
Man if you can read that you can read a letter with a wax seal that says how much money they are sending to you. It' not easier, not practical and even more difficult. You don't need 12 sides to represent 6 numeric values, and why represent values with the size of the holes instead of the actual marks?, you may say that one side represents gold and the other silver but there are no marks for that so you can' t know which side is what. And you can send him many things instead of coins, you can send grains, fabrics, slaves or animals or any combination at the same time. It doesn't solve any problem that a piece of paper and a little reading knowledge can't already do without the problems that the dodecahedron generates.
@@sailingmrnice Well romans had a good postal service, they used to send lettlers in pieces of wood, parchment, papyrus and even wax tablets, they have found survival letters from rome in todays england from the roman period, so they survived the trip and the time span until now.
Just seeing it for the very first time... it is Blatantly Obvious what it is and is used to do. It is a Cypher! Each hole is a different size = different sized peg for each hole = each peg has a fixed and a rotating disc of Latin Alphabet. Twelve sides = 12 difference cyphers. So when use peg 7 with it's pair of discs. After the cypher is jotted on the wood, papyrus, etc, placed inside a courier container (cylinder) and pour wax and press down the bottom (opposite side of discs). The person receiving it would place their unit in the wax holes to get the right size 7 UPwards... put in the matching cypher 7 peg with discs... and decode the message. Easy way to convey Secure Messages across the Empire! New size 1 to 12 pegs / discs could be made each year or each Olympiad (4 years)... so the code is impossible for anyone without a unit... or with the OLD cypher = message is jibberish.
@@jonviol Matt does not present any real evidence just a plausible theory, no decoding discs, no dodecahedrons with duplicate dimensions, no encoded messages using his cypher nor any proof of his proposed method of switching the cypher by reboring the hole diameter has been found to date, his theory should be quite easy to prove but there is no evidence as of yet. This theory is just as plausible though it comes with it's own problems, why is it just a regional occurence, why are there no records? If it was Caesar I would expect a mention or two. Most likely a Gallic ritual object.
@@sailingmrnice nice. I wish I could find one in bronce though. also. I really think you on to something. also since there was wax found inside some of them. The different size holes I still kinda strange through
@@fado792 nonsense. That doesn't explain where it was found. The different sizes. And the fact it would have been expensive to produce. It's not 'what could it be used for' it's what meets every piece of evidence.
@@sailingmrnice . No no . very clever. You can put though the holes different sizes of sticks. On can knit with copper, gold or yarn a thread around it. For a necklace or a piece of rope. It is often found at Roman army places. There were A LOT OF women. Believe me.
they ware used to encode and decypher messages. Wheels with letter were on pegs that uniquely fit designated holes. The 5 points simply hold the encoded letter wheels in place. Most of these dodecahedrons were found in military bases, since that's what they were used fore.
Sorry, you're just wishfully making it up! Below is far and away the best theory I've seen plus a convincing demo of how to use it. Solved? The Roman Dodecahedron th-cam.com/video/lADTLozKm0I/w-d-xo.html
@@sailingmrnice If you actually followed the link I provided you would have seen my comment that some investigators suggested they were of Celtic origin rather than Roman. The Celts were renowned for their expertise in metal jewelry manufacture. Nevertheless, you're own personal flight of fantasy that is the most convoluted form of invoice ever devised is as valid as anyone else's - to you.
I like the idea that it's an anti-tamper device that was somehow used with money. That would explain a lot. It may be that you're over-complicating it. I wonder if you could seal a sack by running the cinching cords through holes and then around the knobs in some pre-determined pattern. And then put your sealing wax over that. Like an bankers' security bag. Everyone knows you could cut the lock off a security bag. The deterrent is that you'd never be able to get it back on. Either theory could explain the existence of the non-standard icosahedron : Some rich guy living in the country needed to send cash somewhere, but didn't have one of the 'official' dodecahedrons, and had to get one crafted locally based on a half-remembered description of one. Still weird that none are found in Italy itself. If roman bankers/treasurers used these things, you'd think someone would find a cache of unused ones.
VOLUME. I deserted your vid bc it was way too low and too much of a bother running it back constantly to hear everything you were saying. A shame really. I hope you fix this error.
Hmmm, it's clever, yes, but I think it is extremely complicated and also messy for a literate administration where numbers could just be written down and sealed - is it really a quick and practical use? Not certain of that - compared to the "knitting" theory, which seems much more versatile and useful. I get your criticism about the "fingers", but for me the chains for jewelry and/or making sturdy ropes strikes with its practicality in a variety of different uses and it being a very well designed little tool...
@@ErnestoBrausewind All evidence and conditions must be met for a solution. You couldn't knit on the smaller ones and tools for knitting/weaving would be made of wood not lost-wax casting.
@@sailingmrnice Wood would be a poor choice of material for that kind of tool, those "bobbins" would break off way to easily and industrial bronze casting was available in the roman empire. Somebody linked a video below where the different possibilities with size and density were shown in practise from the different sides. The demonstration of practicality for both wire and tread ist pretty convincing, the small ones can still be used for delicate gold wire work whereas I don't really see the practicality and every day use in your solution. It's just too complicated and elaborate for that, as I said, why don't just seal it with the numbers attached? Also, if that has been common practise in the empire, why are the finds restricted to a certain area, and not throughout it?
Matt Geevan's theory has more holes in it than a dodecahedron. He proposes using coding wheels a millenia before their invention, to implement a cypher system that can be more easily done without any dodecahedron. So even if his cypher was used, it could be done more easily with a few marked-up rods.
Nah. I go with braiding gold wire. That's why the opposite holes are the same size. Why they were found with treasure.
@@PhilFake-ew7wk It's not an ergonomic tool. It's too expensive to cast a tool for that. They would have been found everywhere. It doesn't explain the relief patterns around the holes. Or why some were found with wax.
The solution is not what could it be used for but what meets every condition/evidence.
I doubt the gold wire hypothesis because there were/are much easier ways to plait or braid wire and pulling gold braid through a holes would have badly scratched the valuable soft gold
SOLVED....the woman on TH-cam site ...makecraftdo... used the dodecahedron to make a glove.....The different size holes are for the different size fingers.
The great woman solved this 4 years ago.
Makes total sense to draw your coin metal into wire for chains... the wearing of one's wealth is an ancient practice extending into modern day.
Regarding the Roman Dodecahedron, the proposed purpose that I like most is “Candle Holder”.
-The holes fit various sizes of candles, since there was no standardized manufacturing
-Heavy and stable - very important with a burning candle
-Will not catch fire when candle burns down
-Rings on each face catch dripping wax (which was found on some of them)
-The ball feet keep it stable on irregular surfaces
-The Dodecahedron are found in the northern parts of the Roman Empire where winter nights are longer and candles were more necessary and valuable.
@@RogerMondo it's not what 'could be used for' it's what meets all conditions/evidence. They would be found in Rome if that was the case. Besides too complicated and expensive to make to be a candle holder.
@@sailingmrnice i could make a candle holder from a large iron nail, its cheaper, easier, and more easy to produce
A few counterpoints. 1. Too expensive for that purpose, 2. Some would have been found with wire, which provides better security. 3. Counting and seals continued after the disappearance of Roman culture but such a handy device did not. Why? 4. Since the purpose was not described in any text, and I would think the voluminous Latin texts would have do so, it is more likely two things: A. a trade secret and knowing how to read a counting device is not a trade secret and B. it is connected with something that disappeared when these objects vanish from the record. A recent suggestion is a chain weaving device and that fits the criteria.
@@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve Using as a cash transfer certification device fits all the evidence. Found on military sites not found in Rome, difficult to copy, found with money hoards, found with wax traces. You need to understand cash transfers.
no, the chain weaving device would not have been military only, it would have been well known and documented in illustrations.
They are for weaving gold wire into fancy braided chain. After you've woven the wire into an 7" long piece lets say, you can reduce it's diameter by feeding it through progressively smaller holes whilst maintaining the integrity of the braid. This also lengthens the chain. Goldsmiths of the Roman era would have been familiar with this technology. Also likely why they are associated with gold hordes.
@@TheMuskokaman Then why are they only found on military sites at the outer extent of the Roman Empire - none found in Rome. None found with wire still attached. Any solution MUST meet all conditions.
@@sailingmrnice They are found in temples, theaters, burials & residential buildings not only on military sites. Whether they found any in Rome is quite irrelevant to the purpose of the object. Not to mention the fact that Rome & the entire Italian peninsula is practically bereft of gold or any other metal ores. So I'm not surprised we have found none YET in the Italian peninsula.
@@TheMuskokaman Evidence of locations?
th-cam.com/video/vBDgmE3d0aw/w-d-xo.html
I just watched "Solved? The Roman Dodecahedron" Amy Gaines TH-cam channel where she uses it to make a chain and ropes which looks a lot like Roman chains. She shows footage of herself doing it. You might wanna watch her video.
@@rawnukles Seen it. But that solution doesn't match all the evidence and conditions found.
@@sailingmrnice who says it has to be a single purpose tool, maybe thats why it was developed in such a way, perhaps it was a roman version of a multi tool, which would explain why so many theories about its usage are plausible
Volume is very low
I loved the "Juliarse Caesar" joke - and the joke about the new idea for a salad! 😂
@@zappababe8577 awwww thanks
You'd think the treasury in Rome would have a few spares laying around then. Or do you suppose they crafted them on demand?
ROMAN DODECAHEDRON - TESSERA ARCA (KNUCKLE BOX)
The recent discovery of another Roman Dodecahedron in England has reignited the debate as to the purpose of this unusual item. All manner of bizarre theories have been suggested, but strangely none have been correct. Such suggestions range from celestial measuring devices, sacred objects, gambling dice, cunning weapons of war, candle holders and votives, distributors of dog treats and even a device for knitting the fingers of gloves (which it can be used for, just as it can be used as a paperweight).
The dodecahedrons are in fact a Tessera Arca (Knuckle Box ring sizer) and were used specifically to measure the fingers (knuckle) in order to size rings that were made from coins . Back in the day if you wanted a ring made from precious metal the easiest way to do this was to use an old coin. However this practise of destroying legal tender was just as illegal back in the day as it is in most countries today so the craftsmen and women who offered this service were usually transitory and highly secretive about their trade. This accounts for the service not being available in the Mediterranean (heart of the) Roman Empire, and generally practised in the North-West of the Empire. As such no dodecahedra have been found outside this region to date.
The client impressed and encouraged by the sheer craftsmanship of the dodecahedron, that was a remarkable feat of engineering skill in those days, would slip their chosen ring ringer or thumb into the 12 available holes of the dodecahedron until the correct fit was ascertained. The craftsman would then place the coin to be used over the hole using the surrounding nodules to hold the coin in position whilst it was scribed from the opposite side (from within the dodecahedron) with the outline of the circle.
The coin could now be removed from the tessera and worked. Firstly a hole would have been drilled and cut in the centre of the coin. in the centre of the coin, almost as wide as the guide mark. The coin would then be placed on a tapered metal spike and hammered with a soft mallet so it folds over until it makes a flat ring. A bit of filing and the ring is finished and fits perfectly.
A skilled technician could thus create a ring whilst his customer waited, in just a couple of hours, and then on receipt of payment disappear into the shadows. Of course there were easier ways to size a ring, they could have used a simple bunch of sample rings, but this would be much more conspicuous and far less alluring than a dodecahedron placed on a dimly lit tavern table, probably with a small candle lit inside to accentuate the object and add to its mysticism and curiosity. The tessera was not just a tool, it was a shop window advertising sign. And of course if the craftsman were caught in possession of a dodecahedron, well the authorities would be totally baffled and have no better idea of its actual use just as we do today.
It is hardly surprising therefore that there are no records of dodecahedra being used in ancient Rome or openly anywhere else and that several dodecahedra have been found with coin hoards. It is more than likely that the service and the dodecahedra were not even Roman in origin, and more likely to be Galic, Celtic or performed by some other person. Certainly the service would not have been available to respectable wealthy Romans, who in any case required a much grander design of ring. Tessera rings were mote than likely offered only to the Plebecites and drunken soldiers and indigenous tribes.
If that was the case they'd find them in Rome but they don't. They are only found in the outer reaches of the Roman Empire.
@@sailingmrnice theres a recent 40 min long video its from 20ish days ago, this is a cyphering tool, with the addition of two wooden disks, and matching dodecahedrons you could encode the whole roman alphabet, then decode it at the other location, and decyphering such an amount of combinations makes it viable to be used for war. the reason that theres wax on this is when youre finished with cyphering, you leave the face of the dodecadedrons impring so the receiving person knows which face to use to decypher. the video is brilliant.
@@ZaJaCltAbsolutely. I think though the disc would have been matched to the hole opposite the seal, not the seal disc itself, meaning you needed all the pieces to solve the cypher. I think using the seal disc hole directly with the wood disc alone could require a decoy cypher to lure into the wrong more direct match.
Very clever hypothesis!
Until we find written evidence of its use I wonder if we will ever really know its true purpose. It could well have missing parts which have perished. The biggest clues we have so far are what they are found with, the approximate time of use, what they are made of, how they are made, the differences between each one found, the lack of wear marks and where they were found. The more that are found the better chance we have of explaining them. I like it that lots of people are coming up with different ideas, conversations, discussions and arguments. Our best hope is that humans made them so humans should be able to solve what their purpose(s) is/are.
The dodecahedron may very well be the only surviving item in a cryptography system. The wax was to seal the encrypted message. All were found at military bases. An encrypted wheel fit in one of the many round holes, part of the coding system. The different wheels and holes all had a particular cyper. Much like the different drum choices on an Enigma machine led to cypher scrambling. Anyhow, the round hole was stamped into the wax on the cyphered letter from the author. The receiver, who had an identical dodecahedron, matched the hole, added the correspinding cypher wheel, and unlocked the message. A good description of this on another channel. Fascinating proposals.
@@beingaware8542 If that was the case an explanation is needed to explain the different sizes of the dodecahedron and why none were found in Rome/Italy. Any solution must fit all conditions/evidence.
Making gold chains. You have a similar idea but put a dowel through two holes. At the base weave a wire around the knobs on one side. Stitch through the loops and work your way down the dowel. Then you can pull the wire chain through smaller and smaller holes until you have a small, woven, gold chain. Credit to Amy Gaines TH-cam channel.
@@purdunetae2995 that doesn't meet all the evidence/conditions. Just because it can do something doesn't mean it was. Meet all conditions for a possible solution.
@@sailingmrnice What evidence/conditions is lacking? Did you look up the video I referred too?
@@purdunetae2995 Why would they make an expensive casting when a wooden jig would suffice? Why are they only found at the furthest extent of the Empire and not everywhere? Why predominately found on military sites? Why found with wax remnants or with hoards of cash? Why are they different sizes? Why are some very small, barely 30mm across?
Occam's Razor says the least assumptions gives the likely solution.
Wood wouldn't stand up too well. Pulling a woven metal chain through wood resizing holes. As for the far flung, trade secrets would be one guess. In a town or city you have permanent jewelers. At trade posts you probably have mobile jewelers who more easily lose things. This also might be a mobile device. A jewelry shop may use something more efficient because it can be bulky and large.
@@purdunetae2995 if that was the case they would have been found all over not just the outer extent of the empire. Nor does it explain wax remnant or presence with hoards of coins.
Nice try but totally unconvinced. There must be simpler ways, equally secure, of sending certification. Does the 'wax' supposedly found on two dodecahedra match the sealing 'wax' that was used by Romans? How does your system accommodate reverse order characters in the Roman number system (e.g. XXI versus XIX)?
Not just the fingers... you can knit the entire glove, the whole hand on a dodecahedron. But you could also make a garment, a sort of tunic with sleeves. It's possible your solution is also correct... the Dodecahedron may be a Multi-Use tool.
εβαλα την λεξη στο ελληνικο κομπιουτερ και αναμεσα στα αλλα εβγαλε αυτο.....
Λέξη ΔΩΔΕΚΑΕΔΡΟ
Αξία 1013
Πυθμενικός 5
αυτο........ΕΚΔΟΣΕΙΣ ΚΛΕΙΔΑΡΙθΜΟΣ
Used for knitting gloves .
th-cam.com/video/vBDgmE3d0aw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=k5D8KmKS2z6zkzUk
Nah. If it was they'd be made of wood and found everywhere.
Sailing Mr Nice, eh? I think the enigma may have recently been solved, Len. The Roman Dodecahedron is an ancient Enigma Machine, for encoding and decoding military signals. The different sized holes are to fit a set of twelve differently-sized dowels fixed to paper rings with letters around the circumference. The small, spherical pegs engage in holes around the circumference of the circular paper rings. If we had the paper and wooden parts, its purpose would have easily been deduced.
If that was the case they would be found in Rome too. None have been.
@@sailingmrnice good point
@@sailingmrnice only needed in foreign lands on campaigns.
@@sailingmrnice Not necessarily. Their use could have been to send encrypted messages between Roman camps which were predominantly where these objects were found, in northwest Europe.
@ The nubs are oblate. If they were pins for discs they'd be straight.
Mr Nice, greetins from Spain. Apologies for the quality of the machine translation . All the hypothesis of the use of the Roman Dodecahedron, after 285 years, are not supported, have inconsistencies and always end with "it is not known", "I have no idea". On june 5, a coherent and reasonably logical hypothesis about its use appeared. It is a game where you insert coins and roll. Gold nuggets are placed in the icosahedron and it is also rolled. Everything is well explained on TH-cam: DODECAEDRO ROMANO: SE ACABÓ EL MISTERIO. (There is an automatic translator to English in the video settings). You can see signs of wear on the balls or knobs, in some photos, as a result of the back- and - forth friction on the table, a movement similar to that of billiard player before hitting the ball. It is a very reasonable hypothesis. Either one is on the side of the esoteric and mystery or on the side of logical reason. If after 285 years "students " and "scientists" were interested science could have the last word. Greetings.
Then they would have been found everywhere not just at the extent of the Roman Empire.
@@sailingmrnice (Automatic translation). Every town has its games in Europe, solid dice from the 5th and 4th centuries (S. -V and -IV) have been found in the shapes of dodecahedra, icosahedron and clubes. Roman Dodecahedra have been found in territories with strong Celtic influence. The Celts arrived in Britain in the Bronce Age and Britain has deposits of cassiterite, tin, a component of Bronce.
A well-presented theory, I don't agree with it but it's well-explained and seems reasonable to suggest. Beautiful Dodecahedron, absolutely stunning.
That's Richard Burton, not Paul Newman...
@@sillybollox2244 I said 'his friend Paul Newman' - I'm Welsh and a massive Richard Burton fan 😉
@@sailingmrnice I DO beg your pudding! 🙏
Nice one , But thi s doesn't really explain the shape or the form. You can really make this in another shape and achieve the same thing , no holes , no Dodecahedron.
It's complicated to stop a copy being made.
Down thumb cause I can't HEAR YOU!
I think the lady who recognized it as a tool for making woven gold chains solved it. The holes are for a dowel, the knobs are to wrap the wire creating the links. Different sized holes are for larger or smaller chains. Furthermore, pulling the chain through the smaller openings uniformly reduces the diameter and lengthens it. The device can also be used to make braided cloth cord.
It's been evident since they were first discovered these are a weaving device of some sort, the mystery was exactly what for and how it was used.
th-cam.com/video/lADTLozKm0I/w-d-xo.html
@@MrJeffcoley1 that theory doesn't meet all the conditions/evidence. It's not what 'could' be used for it should what was it actually for. A cast metal object that isn't ergonomic wouldn't be a likely device for braiding. Doesn't explain where they were found either. And if you're using dowels make your device from wood too.
@@sailingmrnice It would be very difficult to make this device from wood. Besides which wood is softer than metal and not only would it wear but is easily broken. These objects are definitely tools for braiding wire jewelry or yarn into rope/cord.
@@MrJeffcoley1 nonsense. They'd be found everywhere. But the dodecahedrons are predominately on military sites at the outer reaches of the Roman Empire. Please explain.
Could be chains, but making ropes would make more sense in a military context.
What is your take on all the knitting channels, betting on that the roman dodecahedron is a tool for knitting fingered gloves or for producing sturdy ropes or chains? It makes sense in a military context, because the items produced with it are just in demand, especially in the northern regions, and it could be found with treasure hordes merely by merit of being a rather expensive tool?
@@stefanb6539 if it was for knitting gloves they'd be of a similar size. Some of these are 1"/25mm across - too small for gloves. It's also more likely that knitting implements were made of wood in a simpler form. A solution has to meet all conditions/evidence.
If you use weapons such as a sword or bow or spear, it's better not to wear knitted gloves... try that out... maybe leather gloves will work, but not knitted gloves...plus, in the cold, you would probably have thought of socks instead of gloves. .. and wouldn't it be much easier to deliver finished gloves to the soldiers than to deliver knitters to the soldiers?
I know it's always better to think simply when it comes to artifacts like this, but I think in this case it's a little more complicated.
I think it's a Roman enigma machine, there's a video that explains pretty well how it could have worked, why it's made from this material, the wax , etc
@@andreamuller9009 If used for cryptography there would pieces at each end. Ie one at the front and one in Rome. None were found in Rome. Any solutions must meet all conditions and evidence. Knitting fails because lost wax casting would be too expensive and the 1"/25mm version would be useless. Cryptography fails because the sizes vary and they were only found at one side of the communication.
@@sailingmrnice A campaign may have been decided in Rome, but tactical decisions were made directly on the site where the battles took place.
Can I link you to the video?
It explains a lot.
@@andreamuller9009 Have you any idea how much cash was moving from Rome to the edge of the empire??
Man if you can read that you can read a letter with a wax seal that says how much money they are sending to you. It' not easier, not practical and even more difficult. You don't need 12 sides to represent 6 numeric values, and why represent values with the size of the holes instead of the actual marks?, you may say that one side represents gold and the other silver but there are no marks for that so you can' t know which side is what. And you can send him many things instead of coins, you can send grains, fabrics, slaves or animals or any combination at the same time. It doesn't solve any problem that a piece of paper and a little reading knowledge can't already do without the problems that the dodecahedron generates.
Paper? In the Roman Empire?
@@sailingmrnice Yes paper, parchment paper but if you don't like it they used papyrus also.
@@Vicius_IASL Yes but it doesn't travel well.
@@sailingmrnice Well romans had a good postal service, they used to send lettlers in pieces of wood, parchment, papyrus and even wax tablets, they have found survival letters from rome in todays england from the roman period, so they survived the trip and the time span until now.
@@Vicius_IASL Vindolanda tablets, for example.
Just seeing it for the very first time... it is Blatantly Obvious what it is and is used to do.
It is a Cypher!
Each hole is a different size = different sized peg for each hole = each peg has a fixed and a rotating disc of Latin Alphabet.
Twelve sides = 12 difference cyphers. So when use peg 7 with it's pair of discs. After the cypher is jotted on the wood, papyrus, etc, placed inside a courier container (cylinder) and pour wax and press down the bottom (opposite side of discs).
The person receiving it would place their unit in the wax holes to get the right size 7 UPwards... put in the matching cypher 7 peg with discs... and decode the message.
Easy way to convey Secure Messages across the Empire!
New size 1 to 12 pegs / discs could be made each year or each Olympiad (4 years)... so the code is impossible for anyone without a unit... or with the OLD cypher = message is jibberish.
@@DrMJT nonsense. There are too many sizes - some barely 30 mm so not for cypher.
It's so obviously a French Knitting device for knitting Willie Warmers for Roman Centurions😅
Why not simply write the value in a piece of paper and seal it?
@@jctgf three weeks in a bag of coins on the back of a mule? Gonna need some tough paper.
Too complicated . Its a code machine with wheels .
Nonsense
@@sailingmrnice Check out Matt Geevan . Its part of a code communicataion system with wheel or discs .
@@jonviol Matt does not present any real evidence just a plausible theory, no decoding discs, no dodecahedrons with duplicate dimensions, no encoded messages using his cypher nor any proof of his proposed method of switching the cypher by reboring the hole diameter has been found to date, his theory should be quite easy to prove but there is no evidence as of yet.
This theory is just as plausible though it comes with it's own problems, why is it just a regional occurence, why are there no records?
If it was Caesar I would expect a mention or two.
Most likely a Gallic ritual object.
@@sailingmrnice th-cam.com/video/vBDgmE3d0aw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=k5D8KmKS2z6zkzUk
nice!; where can I buy one?
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145661670826?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=h4ymn27QS7C&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=deOn5df1QW-&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
@@sailingmrnice nice. I wish I could find one in bronce though.
also. I really think you on to something. also since there was wax found inside some of them.
The different size holes I still kinda strange through
Solution: A devise for French knitting.
@@fado792 nonsense. That doesn't explain where it was found. The different sizes. And the fact it would have been expensive to produce. It's not 'what could it be used for' it's what meets every piece of evidence.
@@sailingmrnice . No no . very clever. You can put though the holes different sizes of sticks. On can knit with copper, gold or yarn a thread around it. For a necklace or a piece of rope. It is often found at Roman army places. There were A LOT OF women. Believe me.
they ware used to encode and decypher messages. Wheels with letter were on pegs that uniquely fit designated holes. The 5 points simply hold the encoded letter wheels in place. Most of these dodecahedrons were found in military bases, since that's what they were used fore.
@@johnarmon7818 nonsense. Doesn't explain the different sizes. Or the oblate shape of the nubs. Why aren't the parallel pegs???
Sorry, you're just wishfully making it up! Below is far and away the best theory I've seen plus a convincing demo of how to use it.
Solved? The Roman Dodecahedron th-cam.com/video/lADTLozKm0I/w-d-xo.html
If that was the case they'd find them all over the Roman Empire but they don't. Only found in the outer reaches.
@@sailingmrnice If you actually followed the link I provided you would have seen my comment that some investigators suggested they were of Celtic origin rather than Roman. The Celts were renowned for their expertise in metal jewelry manufacture. Nevertheless, you're own personal flight of fantasy that is the most convoluted form of invoice ever devised is as valid as anyone else's - to you.
I like the idea that it's an anti-tamper device that was somehow used with money. That would explain a lot.
It may be that you're over-complicating it. I wonder if you could seal a sack by running the cinching cords through holes and then around the knobs in some pre-determined pattern. And then put your sealing wax over that. Like an bankers' security bag. Everyone knows you could cut the lock off a security bag. The deterrent is that you'd never be able to get it back on.
Either theory could explain the existence of the non-standard icosahedron : Some rich guy living in the country needed to send cash somewhere, but didn't have one of the 'official' dodecahedrons, and had to get one crafted locally based on a half-remembered description of one.
Still weird that none are found in Italy itself. If roman bankers/treasurers used these things, you'd think someone would find a cache of unused ones.
I'm pretty sure it was used for long distance money transfers for the military at the outer reaches of the Empire. Hence not in Italy.
naw......
VOLUME. I deserted your vid bc it was way too low and too much of a bother running it back constantly to hear everything you were saying. A shame really. I hope you fix this error.
@@lanapeterzon9055 Turn your volume up. Sorry it's at your end.
@@lanapeterzon9055 th-cam.com/video/cTYCD4YFFhw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=p1RdFLUgDNZlTTJX
Hmmm, it's clever, yes, but I think it is extremely complicated and also messy for a literate administration where numbers could just be written down and sealed - is it really a quick and practical use? Not certain of that - compared to the "knitting" theory, which seems much more versatile and useful. I get your criticism about the "fingers", but for me the chains for jewelry and/or making sturdy ropes strikes with its practicality in a variety of different uses and it being a very well designed little tool...
@@ErnestoBrausewind All evidence and conditions must be met for a solution. You couldn't knit on the smaller ones and tools for knitting/weaving would be made of wood not lost-wax casting.
@@sailingmrnice Wood would be a poor choice of material for that kind of tool, those "bobbins" would break off way to easily and industrial bronze casting was available in the roman empire. Somebody linked a video below where the different possibilities with size and density were shown in practise from the different sides. The demonstration of practicality for both wire and tread ist pretty convincing, the small ones can still be used for delicate gold wire work whereas I don't really see the practicality and every day use in your solution. It's just too complicated and elaborate for that, as I said, why don't just seal it with the numbers attached? Also, if that has been common practise in the empire, why are the finds restricted to a certain area, and not throughout it?
@@ErnestoBrausewind because they sent cash to front lines
See Matt.Geevan for full explanation.
Matt Geevan's theory has more holes in it than a dodecahedron. He proposes using coding wheels a millenia before their invention, to implement a cypher system that can be more easily done without any dodecahedron. So even if his cypher was used, it could be done more easily with a few marked-up rods.