The Tragedy Of The 728 JET - Never Built Regional Competitor
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.พ. 2021
- Imagine building a plane from scratch, only to be betrayed by your airline customer, go bankrupt and destroy the prototype weeks before your first flight... this is the biggest what-if in regional aviation, the story for the Fairchild Dornier 728.
In today's video we will see what the 728 was like, which airline betrayed the builders and ultimately, why was it never built? Let's explore.
The story of the Fairchild Dornier 728 doesn't start with Fairchild at all, in fact, it starts with another plane entirely, the turboprop Dornier 328; This regional jet had twin propellers and was considered not a bad aircraft, but just not very exciting. It was originally created as a modern answer to the 30-seater market in Europe, and was considered the most advantageous turboprop of the early 90s. Thanks to its high altitude and cruise speed, it was just as efficient as jet-engines and burned significantly less fuel.
It was perfectly suited for point-to-point regional travel, and marketed across Europe and to Western USA. In 1991 it secured a huge order with Horizon Air for 35 aircraft.
So why did I say it wasn't exciting? Well in the early 90s, the latest hot thing was a regional jet, not a regional turbo prop. That, plus a crowded turboprop market, many with more seats, pushed the company to lose a ton of money. How much? the German Dornier lost $337 million (DM499 million) in 1995.
So what was the solution? A 328JET would be faster than any other regional jet, and outperform even the turboprop with jet engines.
At the same time enters our hero of the Story, Fairchild Aviation. This American firm had created the A-10 Warthog that had huge success in the gulf war with its signature sound.
The firm acquired the lagging Donier and its 328JET program with some ambitious programs indeed. After all, why focus on just the 30 seater market when what airlines really wanted was a 100-seater profit machine.
This is what they came up with.
The 728 series would take what worked with the 328JET program and improve on it dramatically. Offically the 728-100 was to have a passenger capacity of 70 to 85 seats. The 728 had the largest cabin in its class.
Interestingly, this five seating arrangement was at the request of Lufthansa who didn't want a low-cost carrier to come in with the same plane, slap in 6 seats, and beat them in their own market. And a 750 km (400 NM) increase in range up to 3,300 km (1,781 nm)
But why stop there? Why not stretch the 728 further into the 928?
The 928 had a stretched fuselage that would have enabled the aircraft to achieve a passenger capacity of 95 to 110 seats. The 928 featured an increased wingspan and more powerful engines. A 928-100 version, as well as a 928-200 version that had an increased maximum takeoff weight (MTOW), was planned, with a range of 3,565 km 1,925 nm.
Lastly, the team also proposed a shink of the 728 into the 528, to bridge the gap between the currently under development 328. The 528 was to have a shortened 23.38 m (76 ft 9 in) fuselage length with a Passenger capacity of 55 to 65 seats to a range of 2,963 km (1,600 nm).
There was also the 1128JET, seating up to 120 passengers. There was also a business jet version called the Envoy 7, that could fly from Europe to the USA without refueling!
It was a big success, and by June 2001, it was reported that leasing firm GECAS placed a firm order for 50 aircraft, By early 2002, a total of eight customers, among them Lufthansa Cityline, GECAS, Bavaria Leasing, CSA-Czech Airlines, Atlantic Coast Airlines, and SolAir, had reportedly placed a cumulative 125 firm orders for the type, as well as signed options for an additional 164 aircraft.
So.. what the hell happened?
Flash forward to March 2002, and only two days before the 728 would taxi around the airport for the first time under its own power, the firm revealed that the program would have a pause for two months as it found additional funds.
In a huge blow to finding additional capital, both Lufthansa and the air leasing firm GECAS pulled out, making the program far from profitable. Low-cost carriers who had been interested at the time pulled out, as the cabin was not reconfigurable for high-density seating - thanks Lufthansa.
In the end, the three prototypes were scrapped, or used for other engineering purposes - not for their maiden mission of flying passengers but rather serving as a warning to anyone else willing to try and enter the regional market.
If these planes had been flown and successful in the market, you could have imagined that this firm would have gone on to dominate in the regional space, pushing out the A220 and perhaps even biting at Airbus and Boeing. Due to its close relationship with DASA, one of the firms that worked with Airbus, its possible it would have eventually been bought by the firm and become part of the greater international network. Or, in my mind, they struck on their own and created their own small jet taking on the world.
No other aircraft's cancellation makes me as sad as this one's, not only had it almost taken it's first flight, but with it died the indigenous german aircraft industry
Imagine if this guy did a collab with Mustard.
yes
yes please
Yes please
Mustard & Ketchup 👍😁
I've noticed this trend of copying other people threads. Did TigerChamp 99 copy Samkay or is it the other way around? I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've seen Samkay copy others before, then again maybe someone is dogging Samkay?
It's probably some sure bored troll that needs a job.
I Wish at least they kept the prototype like the Tupolev Tu-334
one prototype remains with dlr cabin air simulation lab in göttingen. lufthansa and gecas only pulled out after the program was halted and they could no longer expect to meet their required date of entry to services, plus came 9-11 with it s impact on airline traffic. so the notion of betrayal is not accurate. also the statement that the 328 was so overengineered it needed minimum mods for a jet variant is not accurate. the jet was slower than the competition due to the natural aerodynamic dependencies on the 328 prop design that remained.
I remember well those days when working for FD in Oberpfaffenhofen and had seen the first fuselage build; being full of hope and pride. And one day coming back from a business trip to hear the bad news of closing down the program and company. And got my little “S” sticker (as in Sozialplan) on the company ID card. Couldn’t settle Part of that business trip anymore. But still I’m happy for the experience having had worked for Dornier.
Thank you
for perfect aircraft.
Honestly just look at SSJ-100 aircraft which was created in Russia and you will see that your idea are alive and flying every day))
Only minor changes were done))))
You should do the Vickers V1000, a transport/airliner based on the Vickers Valiant. One prototype was built almost to completion, but the project was scrapped two months before the first flight
Exactly this happened to Vickers with their VC7 back in November 1955. Only Vickers was betrayed both by its customer and its government, with the first prototype 86% complete and only a few months from first flight.
Just shows what happens when you try to have intimate involvement with airline manufacturers from the USA. Embraer also learned the hard way.
You forgot to mention the 428 JET! That would have been an excellent aircraft
'Its as efficient as jet, but burns significantly less fuel." I feel like that means the same thing.
Some times you got to make that minimum words
Jets have been not that fuel efficient in the past, only the current ones (320 NEO, 737 Max or C series, 2 to 2,5 l fuel per 100km and seat) can match the fuel efficiency of a 1950s piston engine airliner like the Super Constellation.
Maybe they mean the operating efficiency, jets are significantly faster than prop aircraft and can do more flights or longer flights in the same time, so they need less aircraft for more flights.
yeah
I never knew this! Great to see this type of content.
Really interesting video 😄
Keep up the amazing work 👍👍
Overall a very good analyses. However it misses out on a number of occurrences that sealed the fate of the program. These were by no means only financial ones. One has to understand that Airbus was at the time looking for engineers to work on their A380 program, which was much more prestigious for Europe on the whole. FD being a private company really lacked the gov't backing and standing. The demise of the 728Family was sealed not only by the crunch of money from current investors which where only in the market for quick returns that initially looked promising. The death knell was really blown by the events of 9/11 and the aftermath in which government guarantees were withdrawn due to an allegedly bleak outlook for the regional jet market as a consequence of traffic downturn following 9/11. Banks where just not willing to loan any more money without the national and state guarantees in place. Lufthansa and GE and Eurowings and some others held on for quite some time after the filing for bankruptcy. Unfortunanetly our politicians were really lacking the longterm view for the program. One thing the Brazilian were more lucky in garnering. Eventually when the scavengers came around a lot of knowledge left the company either directly via personnel from different disciplines to the various competitors, and Bombardier picked up a lot of the blueprints during their due diligence process that initially shed some hope for the 728 continue. In retrospect probably one of the more grave industrial mistakes committed by our government at the time. That the initial 228 and 328 Turboprop programs are still in existence or about to be revived and not the jets is astonishing. We have come full circle. I think Bombardier have done a great job with the CS 100/300. Something that Airbus could have had nearly 20 years earlier, had it not been for the A380 which by itself can now be considered history.
The exact same happened to Dornier with the Soviet union as well.. Poor Dornier!
Great quality content, I just discovered your channel and I'm glad I did !
No doubt it will succeed even more
Welcome aboard!
Interesting project with aspects ahead of the competition!
A pity that it has not been carried forward.
So sad. They only needed just $332million to bring this magnificent regional plane into the regional airplane market and they would have dominated. In Germany and the US, that money is chicken change. What a waste of such a beautiful plane and the engineering efforts that went into making it.
Developing such an aircraft have become increasingly expensive, something BBD had to learn with the C series, which almost sent them bankrupt despite being a sophisticated aircraft with a lot of potential.
Can't wait for the video about the Fokker!
Highly interessting video, i only recently found out about this aircraft after running into some pictures of it on google and was intrigued!!
quick side info: you can actually see the fuselage and parts of the wings of the 2nd prototype shown at 8:23 at the Tempelhofer Feld in my hometown Berlin. It was initially planned to be put on display here at the National Technics-Museum but thats a whole different story...It really is a shame that they never got the cash they needed, maybe then there would be a little more diversity at european airports and not just A320s and 737s all over the place!
Please make a video about the Fokker passenger jets. Your videos are awesome!
A small addition regarding the Prototypes. The third one was bought by the german aerospace center for its scrap value and is used to this day to study passenger comfort and air conditioning concepts. So this failure benefitted science at least a little
2 of the 3 Prtotyps if seen in Oberpfaffenhofen one with the CF34-8D engines still attached.
Love these videos, but what’s with the Praetors? Lol
The only reason why the 328 jet was not successful was its low passenger capacity and performance when compared to the Avro RJ 70 which was already well established as a strong competitor in the already saturated regional aircraft market.
I am here from another lost and found video so essentially this is a truly lost and found video 😂
Flew the 328 turbo prop great aeroplane ahead of its time well ahead of anything in its class.
Bombardier almost went bakrupt with the magnificent C-Series/A-220 that they ended up giving away to Airbus..They forecasted investing 3B$, actual is coming in closer to 10B$. They should have partnered with Mitsubishi who had an interset in the market(eg their MRJ) and very very deep pockets.
/- 3B to build/certify, +/-1B to build worldwide support (Service and Parts), +/1B service bulletin updates, +/-5 billions selling at a loss for the 1st decade to convince major airline.
Back then Bombardier didn't have the c-series now the A220. That design came later.
They did have the BRJx. They put a hold on that one. Then never saw the day. Just 2d drawings in Catia.
Rumours after 2001 with big layoffs engineers went to Embraer! 😉
It would have looked so nice in Lufthansa colors! What a shame!!
It's competitors were Fokker 70/100 and BAE 146 more than CRJs and Embraer E-jets
Hey Nick, how about you make a video about amphibian aircraft? I rarely see someone on TH-cam making an animated video about it :D
The Suchoi Superjet has almost the identical fuselage cockpit section....
Part of the fuselages, are still visible at my local aerodrome, southwest of Munich
There is so much wrong in this video that I will happily offer some insight from someone who actually worked for Fairchild Dornier (FDA) at the time of bankruptcy - myself.
1. I don't know why you seem to have an issue with Lufthansa, but Lufthansa pulled their orders after FDA declared insolvency and not after working closely together with FDA trying to save the project. GECAS pulled much earlier and had left the scene while Lufthansa was still in close consultation with FDA, while FDA was in search of an industrial partner to continue the project. I should know. I was involved in the discussions myself. There were basically two models for the resurrection of FDA and the 728, one with Airbus/ATR and one with Bombardier, which I will detail later. Only after it became obvious that neither would materialize, Lufthansa HAD to pull out, out of responsibility towards their shareholders to seek other options for their regional fleet renewal.
2. Fairchild didn't come in as a 'hero'. Although Dornier was making losses at the time, it was still part of DASA, a subsidiary of the Daimler corporation. Daimler wanted to eventually sell off all of its aerospace activities and Fairchild didn't come as a 'hero', but as the welcome buyer of Daimler's failing assets. Fairchild, however, was struggling itself. The A10-A Warthog program had ended and also the Metroliner was not being built anymore, so Fairchild was very happy to be able to buy into a promising program, in order to revamp its aircraft building capabilities. The 428-variant of the 328Jet with 25% more capacity was the only project to be dumped, and Fairchild started the ambitious 728-Program. However, after venture capitalists had been secured in 1999, Fairchild became too ambitious. The 728, the 928 AND the 528 as well as the Bizjet variant, the Envoy7, were all developed at the same time, together with a multi-million € SAP-Project aiming to consolidate the numerous incompatible IT-Systems, altogether simply overstretching the company's financial capacity.
3. The 5-abreast design was NOT an exclusive 'request of Lufthansa'. That is utter nonsense! LH, as launching customers usually do, worked closely together with the manufacturer, that is true (As it did with Boeing with the development of the 737, which actually is a Lufthansa brain child!!!). BUT the intention of a 5-abreast configuration was a FDA-suggestion which LH embraced, as it wold offer more comfort and more capacity than the mentioned competition's aircraft. Remember: the CRJ was developed from the Challenger, a business jet, and initially not designed as a commercial transport, thus in the design therefore suboptimal. Same as the Embraer E-Series which was designed specifically for the demands of Crossair who wanted to fly into London City with the steep approaches. Thus there the 4-abreast design to save weight and improve flight performance at the cost of commercial versatility. The 728/928 5-abreast was actually the major feature of the A/C, not a bug as you try tp describe it. The low-cost carrier prevention theory is even more utter nonsense, as regional jets were of no interest to LCCs anyway. Boeing and Airbus offered the much better aircraft with more favorable economics for LCC operations. The 728 cabin was slightly shrunken in design because of weight issues that evolved in the development process, not because LH wanted to 'prevent LCCs from slamming 6 seats' into the A/C. The 728 was never aimed at that market and in this context LCCs were a non-issue for both FDA and LH. Also the claim that LCCs were interested in the 728 is simply false.
financeEmbraer had the advantage of having the ERJ-Program in production generating revenue that helped them get over the crisis. FDA did not have such revenue as the 328/328Jet programs (and the Do228 utility aircraft not to be forgotten) were much smaller. That is what eventually broke FDA's neck!
But 5. and finally,substantialbehinddesigned to 'beat the Airbus 220 to the market'RegionalBoth Bombardier and a consortium of Airbus and regio-prop builder ATR were looking into taking over insolvent FDA. Airbus, however declined in an early stage as they were concentrating their resources into the A380-Program.
Bombardier, however, after having failed in setting up their own regional jet successor for the CRJ-family, and Embraer having a head start with their ERJ 170 prototype already flying, pressed on into the 728 program. The talks were so advanced that Bombardier had a team in Oberpfaffenhofen performing due diligence, thus gaining access to plans and calculations, and after they had gotten all that material, they dropped FDA and went back to Montreal, not to be seen in Bavaria again! And when you take a close look at what Bombardier came up with four years later, you cannot stop laughing when seeing basically a 1:1 copy of the 728-design, including the cabin-width, the tailplane proportion, nose design, wing design, even the tail cone is the same. It is indisputable that the C-Series is a design-child of the 728, and now that Airbus has taken over the C-Series and renamed it Airbus 220, the 728 was not designed to 'beat the Airbus 220 to the market' - it is actually its grandfather!
And now the Airbus 220, a.k.a. 728 grandson, is actually rolling up the regional market.
And who was its father's, the C-Series', launching customer?
Correct. Lufthansa.
I flew the 328 for a lot of years and when I saw the 220 it reminded me of the dornier 728 straight away.
Five minutes into this video and I've gotten five Ads interruptions already.....frustrating! 😳😒🤨
So, use firefox and Adguard adblocker and enjoy ZERO ads
Great video. one thing - the "u" sound in "Lufthansa" rhymes with "foot", not "flute"
Fairchild Dornier had a good product line up but like with everything in the early 2000's big was better compared today where small is better.
I mean, the A220 barely even happened too -- that's Bombardier's baby, not really Airbus's, no?
Awesome, another Avro Arrow story... Want the TSR-2 enough?
Wasn't, not want.
At 2:08 DeHavilland Dash 8!😉
Please make a video about the pasanger staship by spacex that will carry people around the globe in near future.
Pls make a video about N250 and N2130 stories
You should do a collab with Bill McClintock
This makes me really sad for some reason
Well the thing is that American aviation companies like to compete other aviation companies alot like Embraer, Airbus and even Bombardier.
3:40 former Calm Air plane is no longer used in the northern Canada
How about telling the similar story of the Hawker Siddeley HS.134 Airbus and the equally strange demise of the BAC.311 'Bi-Star' and their subsequent resurrections as the Boing 757 and Lockheeds L.1011 Tri-Star, respectively. AND couple this with the fact that the cancellation of these two projects coincided with the building of the highly expensive, economically unviable Concorde. NOT forgetting the sudden creation, seemingly out of nowhere of the european company 'Airbus Industries' whose first aircraft was the A.300 twin turbofan (311).
Good video. just a side note, Bombardier is pronounced bombard -dee-ay
I got a side note for you too. Not everybody pronounces Bombardier the French way ( i.e. bombard-dee-ay ) eh!
I have seen the structural test cell in Munich in 2003... sad thing
Should look into Fokker similar demise.
I wish it will come back.
Very disappointing as CSA Czech airlines had 8+2x 728s ordered when the program was announced....
It's a real shame they had to fold because those jets were beautiful and surely would've taken the market over. Makes you question those who didn't invest in that company.
I'm pleased F&E continues to improve his pronunciation of 'Bombardier' through repeated attempts.
This one was painful to watch for Dornier fans, please don't do that again.
Sorry
This really was a sad swan song and it's crazy how life would be if this would have happened.
Thought Sukhoi did a small jet of this size. Don't know how well it was taken up, but it was considerably less expensive than the major brands with similar performance and capacity.
They did ssj100
The Sukhoi was pulled from the western market because it was a complete failure. The only two customers, Cityjet flying them for Brussels Airlines and Mexican LCC Interjet had 15 aircraft each, both had only 6 operational because of spares and reliability issues and dumped the planes 2019/20. Only customers are Russian and affiliated operators that are forced to use them by Putin and the Thai airforce who's operations are highly subsidized by the Russian government for prestige.
That plane is complete crap!
What a shame. Being the very best doesn’t always happen.
The 220 (CSeries) and the Embraer Ejets we’re conceived from the Dornier 728.
Конечно смысл покупать программу когда у тебя есть аналоги которые неплохо продаются !?Бобрадье решил занять нишу между ембраеер и Боинг с эрбасом , но что пошло не так и бордье распродал свои авиационные программы так же ж/д строение !
@2:10, you used stock footage of a Dash 8, and not a Dornier.
The 328 is the fuel efficient version of the rj100
Wow
russian edition of the 928 plane is called Su-95.
This market is flooded.
What would happen if this guy would be on service. It would be awesome.
Also keep the work up buddy, this videos are gold for me.
It should come back .
D328 eco is emerging .
What is the difference between DC-10 & MD-11
Dc-10 is older, have different engines and is around the same size as Boeing 767/787 or Airbus A300.
MD-11 is newer, equipped with winglets, and is bigger (Around the size of A330/A340 and the larger 787 variants), it also has smaller elevators/horizontal stabilizers which is why it bounces on 9/10 landings, because it has to land in a higher speed.
The MD-11 is based on the DC-10, and uses the same structure and wings. It's a modernized DC-10, where the name was changed because the name DC- had a bad reputation after the DC-10 crashes.
This was a crying shame
Uhhhh, the A220 isn't a regional jet. Not when it has ETOPS rating, can fly TATL and the majors fly it mainline.
I like plane
man it would be pretty Slick if Found & Explained did a Collaboration with Mustard or have the Duo release Videos together and help each other out on various titles
This guy clearly does not pay much attention to details in his video, Dornier didn't slap a couple of turbojets on the 328, they slapped on a couple of turbofans and yes there is a difference.
Wait did Boeing buy out Fairchild when they went belly up.
It predated the A220 by years... Bombardier apparently bought some of the design work and evolved into the A220. BBD was all in on the CRJ program at the time!
Yes, but for all intents and purposes?
I like your videos, but the footage doesn’t always correspond with the subject. Are these inaccuracies deliberate. No shade
Helllo
I am tired of everyone "joining" Airbus and Boeing. Are we doomed to an eternity of this duopoly?? Enough of that nonsense! There is more than enough room for others to play. There is nothing (absolutely nothing) natural about a company having a backlog of 4000 or 6000 planes. That is total hogwash for consumers! There was a time when all that was needed was 250 - 500 planes in backlog. Like every other industry or commercial group, Boeing and Airbus need to learn to play in a competitive environment and with much better scale to cost ratio. They whine all the time too. It is a damn shame that Canadian government failed to back up, protect and ensure that no one bullied Bombardier. We would have had three players in the 130 -180 sector now. You do not have to be a giant or have a monopoly to succeed. Look what happened when Boeing 737Max failed - we all paid a price for that failure with consequent hiked prices. That era has got to end. The rest of the world is getting tired of it.
Speaking of regional jets
Boeing really wasted the 717 name
Too many ads, so I didn't finish. I think you could get more viewers by decreasing ads.
Russia built this aircraft. She bought all the design and production documentation for the Dornier 728. Now this aircraft is called the SUPERJET - 100
Россия построила этот самолёт. Она купила всю конструкторскую и производственную документацию на Дорнье 728. Теперь это самолёт называется SUPERJET - 100
Hmm
Sukhoi Super Jet SSJ-100
“In the early 90’s the latest hot thing was the regional jet”
*shows brand new private Praetor 600”
I thought twitter just cancelled this plane 😂😂😂
Hi
А Sukhoi Superjet 100 это что?
You Tube the ONLY media platform where the advertisements are longer than the actual original content. Yay capitalism.
Pushing out A220 really ,I don't think so, A220 totally carbon fiber wings , aluminum‑lithium alloy gtf engines unsurpassed fuel economy
2 l per seat and 100 km (A 220/C Series) - bigger ones like 737 Max and the A 320 neo need around 2,5 l.
uhm what is it with the unimaginative derivative numbers....a name or code IZZZ important peeps
400th like
It is not a story Boeing would tell you.
Bombard-ieh. Not Bombard-ier
Not all Canadians pronounce Bombardier the French way eh!
@@BobSmith-iu3hx But it's a French name, from Quebec. That's the only right way to pronounce it...
EMBRAER all the wayyyyy
Stop saying "A Two Two Zero"
728🤣 copy and paste of the name
If you're going to make a jet as small as this put the engines at the back, standard design principles! Also whomever agreed to that horrendous seating plan needs to be kept away from the design office for life.
“Turbopropped”.
Jesus, buy a dictionary and learn English FFS
🤡