the good jumps at the end of the video that has none to little prerotation were all toe pick jumps. none were edge jumps like loop, axel, or salchow. prerotation is more difficult to avoid for edge jumps because only momentum and velocity can be used to rotate instead of also toe pick assistance
It’s amazing how Yuzuru actually talked about prerotation in a recent interview, as well as the imbalance between TES and PCS and judges not rewarding steps in and out of jumps correctly. All those people saying prerotation doesn’t exist and it’s made up by those who aren’t skaters themselves? Tell that to Yuzuru Hanyu.
But this video says he "pre-rotates" a 1/2 turn - which to a skater like myself is NORMAL - and why skaters keep making this face 🙄 when non-skaters make a big deal out of this.
@@etherealtb6021 prerotation is a natural part of most jumps and up to 180 degrees is acceptable. It is when there is more than 180 degrees that is bad technique.
imo, the reason the ISU doesn't want to start cracking down on pre-rotated jumps is because a HUGE number of "quad" jumps (or "triples" for ladies) would end up being downgraded and certain powerhouse countries would lose their status
Also, quads bring in viewers and money for the TV networks. More people will watch the show if there's a quad, especially for the ladies. That said, I wish there was a way to give higher scores for the flexibility moves. Yulia's candle bielmanns, Valieva's signature spin, and everything Sasha Cohen did brought in HUGE viewership.
@@fazdoll you mean Sasha Trusova right? I don't think new fans will recognise the name Cohen. And the point about new viewership, the ISU is driving out its oldest fans because of bad judging.
@@treelo11 Sasha improved a lot her technique, so on the recent Nationals her quad Lutz was actually a quad lutz with toe pick take off. Unlike some other ladies.
Yuna the garbage can overhyped skater because of no prerotation on lutz! Ugly spins slow traveling spins, stiffer than a man on spins, super ugly spiral with mallot foot, never put any effort into fixing turn out, never put any effort into transitions, never put any effort into fixing horrendous flexibility, lazy champion, ugly toe hammer, heavy lean forward on her jumps, bad lips on flip the "fix" was overlooked flat edge like how the judges ignore flat edge today, coward who removes loop, coward who skips comps, inconsistent always falling on majority of her programs. The worst champion who has the loudest psycho fans.
@@HannahhRaltein what alien world are they not appreciated enough??? If anything other skaters who have amazing techniques are not appreciated enough.
I love how you used Kim Yuna as an example, the queen of figure skating herself. In my opinion, she has some of the cleanest jumps and takeoffs of all time. I love Yuna so much! She is just so amazing at what she does
@@aaroncorcega9441 judges don't have such a thing as... "3Flip-discrimination" as yunabots do. Wrong edge is wrong edge, so when you are praising one skater with edge issue and shaming other skater for... edge issue, it's just a typical dual standart and bad sportmanship.
If it seems like I'm kind of lenient about pre-rotation, it's really just that I've given up all hope of the ISU actually doing something about it and learned to live with it lol Also, if you are a skater, please let me know what you think about prerotating- if it makes jumps harder or easier, etc!
Great video as always Yuzutea! I don't have a lot experience when it comes to skating but as far as I know, overly pre-rotating a jump makes it more difficult for the skater. The skating lesson has an interview with a professional technical caller and he does attest to this.
Prerotation makes jumps easier when you’re first learning them, but harder in the long run. The way that jumps are taught, the loop acts like kind of a bridge between the waltz/Sal/toe group and the flip/Lutz group. It’s meant to get you used to using mostly the right foot for takeoff/support (because the others use the left mostly, also I’m assuming counterclockwise rotation). The thing is though that once you learn the loop, it can be difficult to adopt the necessary differences to use that skill well for the flip/lutz. There is a rapid transfer of weight that needs to happen (from skating foot to picking foot, i.e. left to right, whereas in the loop you’re already on the right) and some skaters can’t do it fast and still maintain balance, thus they “lag” on the picking foot because they’re shifting weight late. You also need to have your toe pointed very sharply and strongly on the flip/Lutz, and you don’t on the loop, and skaters can easily miss developing that muscle and habit. At first it’s easier to “loopify” your flip/Lutz because you’ll still get around and that’s what your muscles are used to. But if you don’t fix it, it’ll be harder later. You won’t be able to get as much height and snap in multi-rotation jumps. Coaches sometimes fall into the trap of being happy enough with the fact that their skater can do a thing, and end up gliding over these technique issues because “they’ll get better, they’ll mature away from that style.” But often they don’t without specific correction. Next thing you know Shoma Uno’s still got a trash flip ten years later but somehow he’s making it work for a quad and his coaches are like “eh whatever, he’s doing well anyway, let’s not fuck that up”. They’re not wrong for thinking that way. At that point it IS too late. But they should take that lesson and apply it to early skaters that are still learning.
Great video! I completely agree with you. My main issue is when skaters with great and correct technique on F/Lz are rewarded to the damage of those with good technique, especially when it comes to prerotated (and borderline rotated) quads. I hope the ISU will choose to address this but I have my doubts. It's most definitely not the skaters' fault if they have been taught incorrect technique and if judging is what it is.
Yeah! Totally agree with you on that Fran! Btw I love your videos. I think the ISU has taken the first steps to address this by introducing the poor take-off and landing in it's -GOE criteria. Also the recent change of punishing popped jumps equally as falls (for SP only) may be a step in the right direction as overly pre-rotated jumps are more likely to be popped (not 100% sure on this) and technically make it more difficult for the skater.
@@imangaoang2197 "I think the ISU has taken the first steps to address this by introducing the poor take-off and landing in it's -GOE criteria. " The rule is there, the problem is that it's never applied... they haven't given any deductions fir poor take-offs yet, judging by the GOEs that Shoma has been getting on his 4F, Vincent on most of his jumps, etc. Disagreed about pops too, the pre-rotation there is irrelevant. The punishment being the same as for a fall is nonsense though. A pop is much less disruptive in a program than a fall, a casual viewer might not even notice that they made a mistake.
And I completely agree with you, Fran. And because these skaters will be the future Technical Specialists and will not know about correct Technique it will get even worse. As long Technical Specialists can not watch Take Offs with Slow Motion, Pre-Rotation will be executed excessively to get the Points. Anyway: ISU should define the Take Offs of each Jump more precisely and they should define the numbers of Revolutions executed in the Air for each Jump. I think 3 1/4 Revolutions for a 3Lz and 3 1/4 Revolutions for a 4Lz is not enough. And a Lutz with Unclear Edge, Full blade, Forward Take off and Crossed Legs during Take off is not a Lutz!
That is why Yuzu's jump is just another level, as well as Yuna. He's such a perfectionist and wouldn't sacrifice the quality but of course ISU like to keep their eyes closed.
This vid only made me appreciate Yuzuru more. His pristine jumping technique, iconic programs and unparalleled musicality and interpretation. Man, I love stanning a legend. As for prerotation, I share your same thoughts and unfortunately the skaters with great technique are put at the same level as some of them with hideous jumping abilities because there is no distintion in the GOE. I don't think this issues won't ever be addressed though, but it will take time and the powers that be to be motivated enough to politic for it (like a US skater losing to a russian even though the latter prerrotates like crazy). I believe that 10 years from now people with watch videos from this era and marvel about how some skaters won their medals, the same way we do now when we watch balant underrrotations in old competitons.
Yeah, bottom line prerotation is more of a fan issue than something the ISU pays attention to, but poor technique (Vincent Zhou in general and Shoma's awful flip) shouldn't be getting high GOE like you said.
It's the psycho lovers of Yuna who started this BS. Just because she lost. She had the ugliest lip on flip, and the poorest lines, and bad consistency. Poor spins. Landed on her butt most of the time. Mallot foot spiral. Toe hammer. Too much lean and bend on jump take off for toe jumps. Miracle when she can land on her legs in both the free and the short. She fell so much. Sham wins because she was "the least worst" not the most consistent. Miracle when she can land FULLY ROTATED combos. Almost all were UR and ignored. Terrible overhyped champion because of "no pre-rotation". The same can't be said for Yuzuru. Even though I can't stand his fans her was actually very good at jumps.
This was very much needed video! As it stands now, only underrotations have a form of 'call out' called the UR call. The judges are basically encouraging skaters to pre rotate as much as they need (preferrably bellow 180 degrees like you said) but are DEcouraging them to underrotate. There is a set amount you can under rotate (90 degrees for toe jumps, 120 degrees for edge jumps although I could be wrong on the numbers) but this isnt the case for pre rotation. Pre rotation is a natural part of jumping...its needed unless you really wanna hurt your ankle. Honestly...in my opinion...if you take prerotation and underrotations into account and actually count the amount of rotations a skater does IN THE ACTUAL AIR...the jump should be downgraded if half or more rotation has been missed. I see skaters do triples (3 turns) when in the air they've only done like 2.5 turns or below. Would you class that as an overrotated double or an underrotated triple?? Same story for many quads now. They are doing like 3.3 turns with too much rotating on the ice and not in the air...that is clearly not a quad (4 turns). This is just my opinion though. Great video!
Even if the technical panels can't review a "cheated take-off" jump using slo mo, it seems pretty obvious which are and which aren't anyway...good jumps with good take-offs are literally 'take off': the skater appears to soar into the air suddenly and lightly...as opposed to jump with bad take-off and prerotation which end up looking a lot more laboured.
@@emi283 This video is about prerotation, not edge of a jump. I don't understand why the comment is making such a big deal out of her flip as if she wasn't heavily called out by the tech panel for it. She got called for her flip edge near the 2010 Olympics, which is why she stopped doing a 3F-3T (her signature jump combo before 2009-2010 season). Yuzuru also has a flat flip, which is why he doesn't do 4F. Yet I'm not seeing people making a big deal out of his flip?
Liza yes. Yuna no. She leans too far down to make up for her toe hammer when picking. The toe hammer causes loss of power so she leans so far down before jumping. Liza never did this.
The only thing she had on liza was "artistry" which was waving her arms like a maniac. It was to distract from her feet compared to Mao. Both her and liza have ugly spins though and ugly flexibility. The Koreans today are much better than Yuna's ugly flexibility and lines even though they pre-rotate.
I knew everything you said in that video but it is such a great summery and perfect information for everyone that has not such a knowledge, thank you for that video!!!! And Kolyadas Lutz is just perfect, but sadly he is so inconsistent...
This was a very informative video and greatly appreciated by me. As a skater, I always struggled with accepting my own prerotation of toe loop, salchow and loop jumps, especially when I did more than one rotation in the air. Hard as I tried, I could never avoid the 90-180 prerotation on these jumps, so it was comforting to see that it's a natural part of the jump itself and expected.
When I first learned my axel I had a prerotation problem, which to this day I think makes the jump harder. I still have a small problem with jumping around more than up, but it's almost been 2 years since I got it and it's still getting better! I'm hoping it will be consistent enough to compete with this year.
The "full-blade technique" basically makes a jump an edge jump, not a toe jump; it's essentially a loop jump done w/ different entrances. Skaters back in the day -- Tonya Harding, Nancy Kerrigan, Lu Chen, Surya Bonaly, Oksana Baiul -- never had this issue. Eteri's skaters, for example, seem to have really bad technique on their jumps.
It's not a thing. You're not a skater. Skaters have massive threads complaining about how dumb casual viewers are for "full blade assist" which was invented by them.
What a great video! Thanks for explaining this so well! And yea, it’s so disappointing to see jumps with poor technique get the same or close to the GOE of jumps with textbook technique
I agree with everything except for the bit about 180 PR being allowed for the axel, a clear backward takeoff is considered cheated by the IJS and it is poor technique to prerotate an axel by more than 90 degrees. Just this little bit that I wanted to clarify. Other than that, great video!
@@lc4822 Hanyu does go past 90 what are you talking about? Use your eyes not your emotions. Here's Hanyu at 180 pre rotation on toeloop th-cam.com/video/jvYh9T52foY/w-d-xo.html 2018 Olympics he was caught in 4K.
I am thankful for your easy-to-understand explanation. Anyone should not speak ill of the rival of his or her idol skaters without knowing these rules.
I appreciate your efforts of being objective and the hardwork put in your channel. Keep up the good work! As for prerotation, I don't think it was ever an issue, hence why it's even in ISU jumping simulations. They used prerotating lutz, flip and toe loop jumpers at some point of the "correct technique" examples. This proves that ISU was always fine with 1/2 prerotation, and the "cheated take-off" rule applies to those who starts rotating with their body before they even use their feet (like toe axel). If the rule meant general 1/2 prerotation, it would also apply to salchow and loop too since it states "all jumps".
Thank you for these videos! I'm a casual fan of figure skating who's trying to learn more about the technical aspect of the sport so I really enjoyed this!
was pleasantly surprised to hear the instrumental to wind flower at the end of this with the nice jumps!! it's definitely a harder for me to spot in real time so this is a nice guide!
No, too many flaws. Bad loop. Too many falls. Constant uncalled UR jumps. Poor lines. Bad spins. Mallot foot spiral. Toe hammer with heavy forward lean on take off---not effortless. Poor flips with ugly outside and flat edges---Lip jumper. At least she had no pre-rotation. There's that and only that.
Good video. I’d like to see/hear more people talk about where the balance/weight is in the context of flips and lutzes in particular. If the skater transfers too much weight onto the toe picking side, the takeoff will suffer. The skating foot should be used to push off, with the toe picking side as an assist (toe assisted takeoff). Also, with the emphasis on a clear BO edge in the lutz, many skaters are now forcing that edge, which makes a springy, flowing liftoff less likely. And for fun, go into the figure skating way back machine to learn about the toeless lutz 🙂
Excellent video, it really made me see the difference (and I'm a casual fan!). I wasn't too fond of the music you've chosen, but it's a minor thing... You really did a wonderful job. Thank you!
as a skater this is really interesting to me because my coach has always taught me to pre-rotate. all the coaches in my club teach pre-rotation. especially salchows. i pre-rotate my sals 220 degrees because i mimic the feeling of an axel. honestly it’s something ive always done and never questioned.
Majority of coaches teach pre-rotation, because take off like Yuna's cause massive under rotations and inconsistency. Watch Yuna's programs (all of them). 90% of the time she fell. 10% she landed everything in both the short and free. She under rotated so much, but it was ignored because she was the only one doing 3lutz-3T
Great analysis overall... I will say that the one thing that would really help a person 'see' is the exact tracing on the ice. Salchows and loops have unique tracing which show the pre-rotation. The axel has its own unique take off and really the pre-rotation is only 1/4...if the axel is done properly, the toe turns to the side as the skater leaps in a forward momentum. All skating jumps have pre-rotation. To say they have none is false. Having little pre-rotation is accepted up to 1/4 because of the momentum. It's impossible to have no pre-rotation. The salchow and loop leave the ice on a curve, as they are edge jumps; but to say they are 180 is a bit much...you are already on a curve so if you look at the tracing, the jump is already curbing before you jump so the body is already rounding the curve prior to jumping. To the naked eye when you watch the jumps being done, they look to be going in a particular fashion but the eye doesn't catch that their body is already riding the curve of the edge before jumping. It might 'look like 180 but if done properly, it's less aggressive than that. I do agree there is excessive prerotation being done by many skaters and using that pre rotated lutz in the beginning, was perfect. They really need to start calling these because many of the russian girls 'quads' are not quads when taken down to the individual parts....and of course many triple are just poorly done doubles in disguise. Keep up the great work though 😊
Thank you so much for all the work you have done so far. I am a new figure skating watcher, I dance a looooot but I have never skate. And this is really hard to understand why a "visually" nice skater does not get a great rank at the end. Your videos are really pedagogic, clear. Thanks again ! Greatings from France
This is especially a problem with Eteri's students. The girls' tiny bodies rely heavily on quick rotation and pre-rotation and then they struggle when they get older. This is especially concerning with how they are performing quads now. Alexandra Trusova and Alysa Liu have a huge problem with this imo.
i mean, it works. they won't change the techinque they teach as long as the eteri students win every single competition because why would they. they have to replace them before they turn 20, most much earlier, but why would they care when they have new students every year who can do it too
@@feyanormorfol2457 Polina Tsurskaya and Alena Kostornaia are both exceptions. They had different coaches that taught them their jumps before they had joined Team Tutberidze. They were a bit older when they joined her team and already had their jumps. Sasha Trusova may be okay for her jumps in the future since her triples tend to be rotated and her quad toe has good technique (she just pre-rotates slight on the other quads). Anna Scherbakova, however, is a different story. Her quads are ALWAYS underrotated (but never called out) and even some of her triples are at times. She also lacks speed and flow on many of her jumps. I feel she may struggle with her jumps in the next few years...
@@lyramusica4485 lol, Tsurskaia and Anna S came to ET at the same age. It's not that any coach can just inject same technics to all of his skaters. I mean, compare Tukt and Samodurova. Both are coached by Mishin.
The eteri chick and team takes them the way they are. You need to come to them with triples already. However you have your triples (pre-rotated, toe hammer, etc) they don't care. They won't fix it. They teach quads and consistency. Whatever technique you got from your old coach they will not fix.
Thank you so much for posting this. A lot of people don’t realize that their favorite skaters are cheating their jumps and being rewarded high amounts of points for them.
Thanks for this vid! It really helped me understand jump technique better...tho it's still hard for me to see prerotations real time. Gotta train my eyes faster before the season starts 👀 also, peep at pentagon's like this being used for the BGM 😉
In my opinion the way to see it in real time (for pick jump) is to look for the skater toe pick. If other part of the blade starts to touch the ice (or full blade) then I can guarantee that the jump is prerotated. I agree with yuzutea that prerotated jump looks ugly. Pick jumps power come from the tap of toe pick to help launch the skater and if done right the jumps will look effortless.
Coming here after the 2022 winter olympics, I think pre-rotation matters a lot. It's not directly the death of figure skating, but the lack of a clear standard + not judging consistently according to that standard has made for the mess that was the ladies event. (I mean Sasha's expectations of gold for her 5 "quads", not Kamila's failed drug test.) As someone who skates, all jumps require a bit of prerotation; I was taught
After watching your video, I agree with everything you have said except... Axels. I had/have clean edge forward take-offs. During my amateur and professional show years, clean 1A and 2A take-offs -- no skids or turns. And now (at 56 years old) I still have a clean edge take-off.
Another reason for pre rotation is not enough physical strength to perform the jump. This turns into habitual technique not necessarily taught poor technique though a coach should be able to recognize it & work with the skater to build strength & technique.
Hello, thank you for this video, and many others you have. I did know what prerotation is, but I didn't know how judges look at it. So now I know I was being a little bit to much strict with loop. I still consider better jumps the ones with the less prerotation possible. And as you said, those ones should be rewarded with more GOE. It is all very well explained with good examples. And all being respectful. Thank u! 👍🏻
Figure skating rules are definitely extremely complicated! First -> recognize jumps, number of rotation and prerotation is really hard for normal viewers 😂
the judging system's absurd inconsistency in judging the same "flaws" and favoritism using pumped up component scores is one major problem the sport. The other is the end of choreographed programs in favor of mood music where is has become inconsequential what move you do where because almost none of it coincides with a musical event. The element of timing (i.e. suspense is gone) and so has the impact of most programs. The rule change in allowing vocal music and the flood of pulseless, or dynamically static music is ruining the drama of figure skating. Songs with words don't need to be musically interpreted because they tell you what they are about and they aren't composed with choreographic intent. Furthermore, the lack of attention to footwork, spins and fields moves in favor of the big jump run set ups is making the sport unbalanced and watered down. While it seems a prerequisite that women be flexible enough to do the Biellmann spin, the catch foot layback is now just used as a transition to the Biellmann and has destroyed the layback spin, as almost nobody attains the proper attitude with the turned out knee. Nothing is held out for long because the more positions you obtain the more points you get. Most of the footwork even by the top skaters is slow looping and not delivered at high speed down the ice as was customary in the past...And while jumping technique has taken a big step forward in the last two decades and a lot high level spins are performed, they are not generally done with speed and often travel a lot. Did anybody notice in the pairs long program that not a single one of the final group in pairs performed a side by side spin combination? That's because they haven't practiced the skill and their unison is bad...in Pyeongchang when the final pairs group skated they attempted these spins but almost all of them were off in side by side unison. So there is some erosion in skills not related to jumping.
Finally someone talking some fucking sense about prerotation. I’m so tired of the knee-jerk reaction “prerotation bad!!!” from skating stans that have never skated in their life and don’t know what they’re talking about.
Great video! Thanks for putting it together. The ISU rulebook has been always put the emphasis on landing but not takeoff unfortunately. The amount of landing annotations in the rulebook basically tells the story. On quarter (q), underrotated (
Well, I had to come and watch this video again now that pre-rotation (or cheated take-offs) have been added to the guidelines of judging in the new communications for next season :)
Any judge that watches the same skaters year after year does not need to watch a skaters' jumps in slow motion. Everybody knows what everybody's take off technique is. It is generally very difficult to change anyway. Look at Medvedeeva and how much she tried to change her technique.... There is less than a 10 percent chance that any skater who has done terns of thousands of a jump with a certain technique can change anything appreciably...If judges know the baseline degree of prerotation for the skaters jumps, they can already have a clear deduction in their mind before the skater even skates and then there is only to watch the jumps for timing flow and degree of clean rotation on the landing.... BTW, ALL of the Russian girls(except Tuktamysheva)pre rotate their Salchows and toe loops 3/4 revolutions some like Scherbakova are almost 1 full revolution pre rotated when they do the loop in combination.... They also do the crappy full blade take offs...
Great video, very fair and knowledgeable, and it resolves a lot of issues that fans usually argue over. But one thing is that as for the flip, I cannot remember if I have seen it on ISU handbook or instruction video, but I recall that it is also acceptable to prerotate a little on this jump because the body weight would lean toward the takeoff direction, so peroration is sort of inevitable and more natural for this jump than lutz.
For a non-skater (but a figure skating fan), I find it very difficult to see the the degrees of pre-rotation even in slow-mo videos. In real-time, do the judges get to recognize this where every jump happens so fast?
I seriously hope that the OP starts blocking/calling out unneccessarily rude replies like these two if they want to keep their integrity and not let their channel become Koola King 2.0. It's 2019, let's try to keep it civil and constructive.
@@kurooscoffee You know what else is rude? Robbing a skater who dedicated her entire childhood to sport only to be robbed. ISU and the Russian Skating Federation allowed this to happen. They then constructed false statements claiming that Yuna agreed with the results and that Adelina was better than her. Adelina went on to say that she won't come back until she is ready because her gold medal is a status that she doesn't want to tarnish. Like bitch... that gold medal was a fake status. There is nothing lower than fake gold medal. You want to keep the integrity of the SPORT? CALL OUT ISU and the disgusting cheaters who think its okay to cheat others out of medals they poured their blood sweat and tears into. A two time consecutive olympic champion is a BIG deal. I would like to see you shrug that off. Imagine getting arthritis at 15, spinal injuries, only to be cheated at your last competition. DISGUSTING. You need to re-evaluate yourself.
Dude, get over it. Adelina won. She had the technical content, she had better spins, she had big jumps and the judges' guidelines didn't say anything about giving more points to the one that had overall better technique. She completed the requirements established by the rules and took the gold. 6 years ago. Were those rules ok? It doesn't matter. They were still the rules, and according to them, she won fairly. So leave her alone, nor she or Yuna are even competing right now.
@@JustSmileBiitch Defending Adelina is okay and slandering her is not but please do not go this far. Even legends like Dick Button and Kurt Browning called out the Sochi judgement. This is why Russian skaters get away with everything just like how Anna gets away with prerotations and somehow won the 2021 Worlds. Adelina has great spins such as her signature catchfoot camel and illusion spin but there is no such thing as "big jumps" when it comes to her. She did so many mistake, yet Mao who had "big jumps" and minimal fouls couldn't even win the free skating. Sochi was a disgrace and no one should ever get over it but slandering Adelina is never okay.
The 2019 world champ was deserved by Nathan, he was brilliant. But here is what I actually felt after that, He is another challenge that YUZURU is actually happy and excited to face, even if he lost the gold but he being an emotional skater, a typical strong headed one with a really high competitive spirit. Yuzu being involved with loads of injuries and accidents, he had to pace a little slower as compared to what his original goal was, Nathan's name showed up just at the right time as JAVI left the spot. We all know how Yuzu is obsessed with aiming higher and higher, taking new challenges, and enjoying the pressure to its fullest while being able to explore his own worth and capabilities. His recent skate programmes at CANADA and all clearly demonstrated that he is even more bold and fearless than ever.
I heard that new technology is going to be used in judging of the jumps ,which will do basically the work for judges ,and help to judge it correctly,and it will catch the images before take off,during and after ,with all the rotations ,so ,that would be quite a new era !👌
Thanks for this thorough and clear explanation of pre-rotation. I also wonder about the impact of excessive pre-rotation on skater's bodies. Any thoughts?
Excessive prerotation creates a great deal of stress for the back, but it allows you the possibility of delivering techniques you otherwise wouldn't be able to. It's a shortcut that doesn't carry much penalty under current judging, but you definitely pay for it later in life.
Very interesting! Thank you for putting this together... even as a longtime skating fan, I don’t care about under-rotation unless it’s really obvious in real-time so I really don’t notice pre-rotation. How do you feel about skaters who do a big counter swing? Caroline Zhang comes to mind-her lutz in particular. Generally, I think the technical panel should have every real-time, slow-mo, stro-mo-whatever they need in order to call it right! Then, skaters would be incentivized toward good technique. Also, bring back the figures!! Technique in general has declined so much since they killed the figures! Lord, I’ve become the old senile person.
By counter swing, do you mean the “mule kick” where she swings her leg up super high and slams it into the ice to take off? Yeah that’s really bad...jumps that use that technique are usually very poor quality and are punished in grade of execution by the judges. Caroline’s was one of the worst...kanako murakami too.
Yuzutea yes! The physics of it are really baffling. To this day, I think Nancy Kerrigan still has the best triple lutz. The solo lutz in her 94 Olympic free was just divine.
Thank you, this was super helpful! Do you plan on making other videos about the correct technique of other FS elements? Like spin for example? I’m a newbie to the sport and feel a bit loss...
i just wanna say that yuzu really is that bitch that refuses to be called out for prerotation... look at him looking the other way just so his body wont unconsciously prerotate we stan
Pre-Rotation and Correct Technique is THE BURNING THEME in Figure Skating. ISU should define the Take Offs of each Jump more precisely and they should define the numbers of Revolutions executed in the Air for each Jump. As long Technical Specialists can not watch Take Offs with Slow Motion, Pre-Rotation will be executed excessively to get the Points. The Skaters don't know about there Technical Mistakes, they follow the Coaches instructions. And because these skaters will be the future Technical Specialists and will not know about correct Technique it will get even worse. I think 2 1/4 Revolutions for a 3Lz and 3 1/4 Revolutions for a 4Lz is not enough. And a Lutz with Unclear Edge, Full blade, Forward Take off and Crossed Legs during Take off is not a Lutz! The cheated ones are the good teaching Coaches and their Skaters.
Interesting.. It totally makes sense that the ISU is vague on prerorations. At some point the formal judging and what the casual eye sees at normal speed must converge. I'll explain what i mean in a minute. To me this whole topic of peroration is very closely related to jump height. It's only logical that a higher jump leaves less opportunity to either perorate or underrotate, though of course speed of rotation and distance travelled matter too in how and where exactly the skater will land. Now back to what the eye sees.. There's also the question of physics - namely momentum. Here's why i think what the eye sees at normal speed does matter. What the eye mostly sees is which way they were facing when they started the jump and when they landed. If the toe pick is touching the ice does not mean there is any weight on it at all, so from the point of view of physics that is sort of incidental. It does not really significantly change the momentum of the jump. If what you see is a constant motion upwards then chances are the weight has left the ice at some point with the 180 degrees. Same on landing. What really matters is that the body lands facing the right direction, because that means the momentum of the jump managed to carry it to the correct position. When exactly the toe pick touched down does not necessarily mark the transfer of weight. If it did, this would probably be visible in the position of the slide out of the jump. This is why it probably makes more sense to give higher GOE for a higher, tighter, straighter jump, than nix on this whole toe touching ice factor. Because this is more in line with what the casual eye sees. The height, the lightness the distance of the jump this is what makes it beautiful and exhilarating.
great video; definitely, judges should consider the quality of the take-off much more than they tend to do generally. But as a former judge, I can say that it is not so easy "at normal speed" and with the limited time you have to score 376 things! ;-) Said that, the major problems are seen on F and Lz (which also have the potential edge problem) and there are not 56 F or Lz in a program..But, yeah at the olympics we definitely saw some poor-technique (quadruple) jumps being overrated......
Ok here’s the fact of the matter: prerotation is necessary. As a figure skater, I’d know. I don’t do this, and because of that I underrotate my jumps. I need to get this down for my final bit of rotation on my triples. What it does: initiate rotation and direction of the jump. That’s it. Prerotation is only cheap if it’s too much, but that actually also can hinder the jump. So yeah.
Prerotation is not the death of figure skating. The judging system’s ambiguousness is the death of figure skating
the good jumps at the end of the video that has none to little prerotation were all toe pick jumps. none were edge jumps like loop, axel, or salchow. prerotation is more difficult to avoid for edge jumps because only momentum and velocity can be used to rotate instead of also toe pick assistance
@@tomAkelife-gy4qr you need to watch the video again
It’s amazing how Yuzuru actually talked about prerotation in a recent interview, as well as the imbalance between TES and PCS and judges not rewarding steps in and out of jumps correctly. All those people saying prerotation doesn’t exist and it’s made up by those who aren’t skaters themselves? Tell that to Yuzuru Hanyu.
Would you have the link to that interview ? Seems interesting.
Would love the link as well ! :) In the hope you'll see the comments :)
people are saying pre-rotation doesn't exist? that's extremely dumb, i definitely have a problem with pre-rotating.
But this video says he "pre-rotates" a 1/2 turn - which to a skater like myself is NORMAL - and why skaters keep making this face 🙄 when non-skaters make a big deal out of this.
@@etherealtb6021 prerotation is a natural part of most jumps and up to 180 degrees is acceptable. It is when there is more than 180 degrees that is bad technique.
imo, the reason the ISU doesn't want to start cracking down on pre-rotated jumps is because a HUGE number of "quad" jumps (or "triples" for ladies) would end up being downgraded and certain powerhouse countries would lose their status
Also, quads bring in viewers and money for the TV networks. More people will watch the show if there's a quad, especially for the ladies. That said, I wish there was a way to give higher scores for the flexibility moves. Yulia's candle bielmanns, Valieva's signature spin, and everything Sasha Cohen did brought in HUGE viewership.
@@fazdoll you mean Sasha Trusova right? I don't think new fans will recognise the name Cohen. And the point about new viewership, the ISU is driving out its oldest fans because of bad judging.
Cough Russian women cough
FantasyPNTM Actually Trusovas quadrupple salchows are not that bad! And Alena doesn't do quads and still competes for Russis!😅
@@treelo11 Sasha improved a lot her technique, so on the recent Nationals her quad Lutz was actually a quad lutz with toe pick take off. Unlike some other ladies.
yuzuru and yuna are the impeccable technicians in figure skating
The reason why we call them kings and queens.
And yet they are not appreciated enough
Yuna the garbage can overhyped skater because of no prerotation on lutz! Ugly spins slow traveling spins, stiffer than a man on spins, super ugly spiral with mallot foot, never put any effort into fixing turn out, never put any effort into transitions, never put any effort into fixing horrendous flexibility, lazy champion, ugly toe hammer, heavy lean forward on her jumps, bad lips on flip the "fix" was overlooked flat edge like how the judges ignore flat edge today, coward who removes loop, coward who skips comps, inconsistent always falling on majority of her programs. The worst champion who has the loudest psycho fans.
They are the Korean queen
@@HannahhRaltein what alien world are they not appreciated enough??? If anything other skaters who have amazing techniques are not appreciated enough.
I love how you used Kim Yuna as an example, the queen of figure skating herself. In my opinion, she has some of the cleanest jumps and takeoffs of all time. I love Yuna so much! She is just so amazing at what she does
Yuna is the greatest example of how to do the textbook perfect 3Lz
She used to jump lipz, so nobody is perfect.
@@feyanormorfol2457 But can u do a textbook 3Lz - 3T with the most perfect outside edge
@@aaroncorcega9441 judges don't have such a thing as... "3Flip-discrimination" as yunabots do.
Wrong edge is wrong edge, so when you are praising one skater with edge issue and shaming other skater for... edge issue, it's just a typical dual standart and bad sportmanship.
@@feyanormorfol2457 キム・ヨナさんのフリップも完璧だと思います。教本とまったく同じ飛び方をしています。伊藤みどりさんも見て親指の方に中心が乗っていると当時の判定に疑問を表しました。
If it seems like I'm kind of lenient about pre-rotation, it's really just that I've given up all hope of the ISU actually doing something about it and learned to live with it lol
Also, if you are a skater, please let me know what you think about prerotating- if it makes jumps harder or easier, etc!
Great video as always Yuzutea!
I don't have a lot experience when it comes to skating but as far as I know, overly pre-rotating a jump makes it more difficult for the skater. The skating lesson has an interview with a professional technical caller and he does attest to this.
Love the vid Yuzutea!
Keep up the good work!
I got skating lessons bcs you
I think Adelina's pre-rotation is the second coming of christ.
Prerotation makes jumps easier when you’re first learning them, but harder in the long run.
The way that jumps are taught, the loop acts like kind of a bridge between the waltz/Sal/toe group and the flip/Lutz group. It’s meant to get you used to using mostly the right foot for takeoff/support (because the others use the left mostly, also I’m assuming counterclockwise rotation). The thing is though that once you learn the loop, it can be difficult to adopt the necessary differences to use that skill well for the flip/lutz.
There is a rapid transfer of weight that needs to happen (from skating foot to picking foot, i.e. left to right, whereas in the loop you’re already on the right) and some skaters can’t do it fast and still maintain balance, thus they “lag” on the picking foot because they’re shifting weight late. You also need to have your toe pointed very sharply and strongly on the flip/Lutz, and you don’t on the loop, and skaters can easily miss developing that muscle and habit.
At first it’s easier to “loopify” your flip/Lutz because you’ll still get around and that’s what your muscles are used to. But if you don’t fix it, it’ll be harder later. You won’t be able to get as much height and snap in multi-rotation jumps.
Coaches sometimes fall into the trap of being happy enough with the fact that their skater can do a thing, and end up gliding over these technique issues because “they’ll get better, they’ll mature away from that style.” But often they don’t without specific correction. Next thing you know Shoma Uno’s still got a trash flip ten years later but somehow he’s making it work for a quad and his coaches are like “eh whatever, he’s doing well anyway, let’s not fuck that up”. They’re not wrong for thinking that way. At that point it IS too late. But they should take that lesson and apply it to early skaters that are still learning.
That’s really interesting, thanks for sharing!
Great video! I completely agree with you. My main issue is when skaters with great and correct technique on F/Lz are rewarded to the damage of those with good technique, especially when it comes to prerotated (and borderline rotated) quads. I hope the ISU will choose to address this but I have my doubts. It's most definitely not the skaters' fault if they have been taught incorrect technique and if judging is what it is.
Yeah! Totally agree with you on that Fran! Btw I love your videos. I think the ISU has taken the first steps to address this by introducing the poor take-off and landing in it's -GOE criteria. Also the recent change of punishing popped jumps equally as falls (for SP only) may be a step in the right direction as overly pre-rotated jumps are more likely to be popped (not 100% sure on this) and technically make it more difficult for the skater.
@@imangaoang2197 "I think the ISU has taken the first steps to address this by introducing the poor take-off and landing in it's -GOE criteria. "
The rule is there, the problem is that it's never applied... they haven't given any deductions fir poor take-offs yet, judging by the GOEs that Shoma has been getting on his 4F, Vincent on most of his jumps, etc.
Disagreed about pops too, the pre-rotation there is irrelevant. The punishment being the same as for a fall is nonsense though. A pop is much less disruptive in a program than a fall, a casual viewer might not even notice that they made a mistake.
And I completely agree with you, Fran. And because these skaters will be the future Technical Specialists and will not know about correct Technique it will get even worse. As long Technical Specialists can not watch Take Offs with Slow Motion, Pre-Rotation will be executed excessively to get the Points.
Anyway: ISU should define the Take Offs of each Jump more precisely and they should define the numbers of Revolutions executed in the Air for each Jump.
I think 3 1/4 Revolutions for a 3Lz and 3 1/4 Revolutions for a 4Lz is not enough.
And a Lutz with Unclear Edge, Full blade, Forward Take off and Crossed Legs during Take off is not a Lutz!
06:48 Damn, Nana basically YEETED herself into space with that toepick...
Haha that’s the perfect way of describing nana’s jumps- takes off into space, and then the landing is...optional
She's never coming down
lmao
That is why Yuzu's jump is just another level, as well as Yuna. He's such a perfectionist and wouldn't sacrifice the quality but of course ISU like to keep their eyes closed.
This vid only made me appreciate Yuzuru more. His pristine jumping technique, iconic programs and unparalleled musicality and interpretation. Man, I love stanning a legend.
As for prerotation, I share your same thoughts and unfortunately the skaters with great technique are put at the same level as some of them with hideous jumping abilities because there is no distintion in the GOE. I don't think this issues won't ever be addressed though, but it will take time and the powers that be to be motivated enough to politic for it (like a US skater losing to a russian even though the latter prerrotates like crazy). I believe that 10 years from now people with watch videos from this era and marvel about how some skaters won their medals, the same way we do now when we watch balant underrrotations in old competitons.
Ofc It's always the Russian..... sigh
i just hope the good techniques will not disappear and pre-rotations become the gold standards.
Very useful video! Can you do the same with the underrotations please?
1:05 Yuzuru Hanyu is the textbook of the ART of skating 🏆
Yeah, bottom line prerotation is more of a fan issue than something the ISU pays attention to, but poor technique (Vincent Zhou in general and Shoma's awful flip) shouldn't be getting high GOE like you said.
I'm biased so I'll give Shoma all the PCS in the world but man, he really needs a solid jump coach, almost all his jumps look scary to me.
It's the psycho lovers of Yuna who started this BS. Just because she lost. She had the ugliest lip on flip, and the poorest lines, and bad consistency. Poor spins. Landed on her butt most of the time. Mallot foot spiral. Toe hammer. Too much lean and bend on jump take off for toe jumps. Miracle when she can land on her legs in both the free and the short. She fell so much. Sham wins because she was "the least worst" not the most consistent. Miracle when she can land FULLY ROTATED combos. Almost all were UR and ignored. Terrible overhyped champion because of "no pre-rotation". The same can't be said for Yuzuru. Even though I can't stand his fans her was actually very good at jumps.
One of the best analysis video I’ve ever seen. Explains concepts very well and is respectful of every athlete. Good job! 👍🏻
Yuzuru Hanyu just did a zero preroated quad lutz at the grand peix final warm up
This was very much needed video!
As it stands now, only underrotations have a form of 'call out' called the UR call. The judges are basically encouraging skaters to pre rotate as much as they need (preferrably bellow 180 degrees like you said) but are DEcouraging them to underrotate. There is a set amount you can under rotate (90 degrees for toe jumps, 120 degrees for edge jumps although I could be wrong on the numbers) but this isnt the case for pre rotation.
Pre rotation is a natural part of jumping...its needed unless you really wanna hurt your ankle.
Honestly...in my opinion...if you take prerotation and underrotations into account and actually count the amount of rotations a skater does IN THE ACTUAL AIR...the jump should be downgraded if half or more rotation has been missed. I see skaters do triples (3 turns) when in the air they've only done like 2.5 turns or below. Would you class that as an overrotated double or an underrotated triple?? Same story for many quads now. They are doing like 3.3 turns with too much rotating on the ice and not in the air...that is clearly not a quad (4 turns). This is just my opinion though.
Great video!
Love how Yuzuru is used as an example of a good quad :)
Thank you for a video that is GOOD, USEFUL, FAIR and RESPECTFUL. This is a rare gift.
That sequence in the end with the technically well executed jumps! My oh my! So satisfying!
Even if the technical panels can't review a "cheated take-off" jump using slo mo, it seems pretty obvious which are and which aren't anyway...good jumps with good take-offs are literally 'take off': the skater appears to soar into the air suddenly and lightly...as opposed to jump with bad take-off and prerotation which end up looking a lot more laboured.
Great !! Yuna, Elizaveta jumps are always great !! I love their amazing jumps. Also, I want to see your rescoring 😭😭
Yuna's Flip was wrong, her edge was flat and sometimes slightly outside
@@emi283 This video is about prerotation, not edge of a jump. I don't understand why the comment is making such a big deal out of her flip as if she wasn't heavily called out by the tech panel for it. She got called for her flip edge near the 2010 Olympics, which is why she stopped doing a 3F-3T (her signature jump combo before 2009-2010 season). Yuzuru also has a flat flip, which is why he doesn't do 4F. Yet I'm not seeing people making a big deal out of his flip?
Liza yes. Yuna no. She leans too far down to make up for her toe hammer when picking. The toe hammer causes loss of power so she leans so far down before jumping. Liza never did this.
The only thing she had on liza was "artistry" which was waving her arms like a maniac. It was to distract from her feet compared to Mao. Both her and liza have ugly spins though and ugly flexibility. The Koreans today are much better than Yuna's ugly flexibility and lines even though they pre-rotate.
@@node9691 Her comment wasn't about Yuzu though. Why bring him up?
I knew everything you said in that video but it is such a great summery and perfect information for everyone that has not such a knowledge, thank you for that video!!!! And Kolyadas Lutz is just perfect, but sadly he is so inconsistent...
This was a very informative video and greatly appreciated by me. As a skater, I always struggled with accepting my own prerotation of toe loop, salchow and loop jumps, especially when I did more than one rotation in the air. Hard as I tried, I could never avoid the 90-180 prerotation on these jumps, so it was comforting to see that it's a natural part of the jump itself and expected.
When I first learned my axel I had a prerotation problem, which to this day I think makes the jump harder. I still have a small problem with jumping around more than up, but it's almost been 2 years since I got it and it's still getting better! I'm hoping it will be consistent enough to compete with this year.
Thank you for explaining things so clearly and without drama. ^^
カメラ角度は一定ではなく斜め上から捉えれた画像では身体の角度比較は難しい。ＩＳＵはジャッジ用カメラの台数・画質を変更すべき。今４Ｋカメラも小型化されているし、これをリンク全体をカバーする固定カメラを置く必要がある。固定カメラ（身体をしっかりと視野に入れられるようにフェンス上段の高さに、足元に、そしてリンク上に…それぞれ配置させれば済むもの。富士通などでは体操競技用ＡＩを作成しているのであるし、フェンシング協会では剣先の動きをセンサーで可視化し視聴し易い環境を作っている…。リンクに固定し埋め込むのは環境的に難しい。であれば試合会場を固定し、その会場だけに専用カメラを配置する。もしくは、リンクに対するカメラ位置を3次元的に固定し常に同じ環境で監視出来るに基準を作成すれば済む話）で撮影しこれを学習させ、データー化すれば、プレロテも回転不足もしっかりと判定出来るし、片足走行率やリンクカバー率もきちんと測定出来る。某ＴＶ局が放送した「アイスコープ」のような目先だけのデーターではなく、要素の前後の動きからスケーティング・スピードの変化（緩急）をきちんと評価することが重要。ジャンプなどは助走スピードが高ければ、普通に着氷出来ればそのスピードはある程度高くなる。そこが重要ではない。低い助走スピードでしっかりと3回転以上のジャンプを跳び、かつ高さ・流れがあるものが高い技術で実行されている証拠であるから、助走スピードと着氷後のスピードの変化を比較しないと正しい評価とは言えない。羽生選手のように、殆ど助走スピードがない所からジャンプを跳び、流れを殺さずに繋ぎを実行しかつスケーティング・スピードが増している。こう言ったジャンプこそが「非常に高い技術」「強い体幹」「超人的バランス感覚」を体現していると評価出来るのではないだろうか？4回転ジャンプなどは人間が瞬時に判断する限界を超えているのではないだろうか？（回転速度はとても速い。1秒未満で実行されるものを判断するのは、高い動体視力が必要。一般人に対してこのジャンプなどの動作をもっと可視化し提示することで、選手の技術をより判り易く観る事が出来るのでは？）
演技の芸術性（優れた技術・基礎の上に成り立つもの）を人間だけで判断すると主観でしかない。「感情」を完全統一することは出来ないのだから、「ＡＩ」と人間との総合判断を行うべき。そうでなければ、いつまで経っても各国連盟の綱引きに選手達は振り回されてしまう。早期のジャッジのプロ化を、「ＡＩ」導入を…
The "full-blade technique" basically makes a jump an edge jump, not a toe jump; it's essentially a loop jump done w/ different entrances. Skaters back in the day -- Tonya Harding, Nancy Kerrigan, Lu Chen, Surya Bonaly, Oksana Baiul -- never had this issue. Eteri's skaters, for example, seem to have really bad technique on their jumps.
It's not a thing. You're not a skater. Skaters have massive threads complaining about how dumb casual viewers are for "full blade assist" which was invented by them.
What a great video! Thanks for explaining this so well! And yea, it’s so disappointing to see jumps with poor technique get the same or close to the GOE of jumps with textbook technique
I agree with everything except for the bit about 180 PR being allowed for the axel, a clear backward takeoff is considered cheated by the IJS and it is poor technique to prerotate an axel by more than 90 degrees. Just this little bit that I wanted to clarify. Other than that, great video!
Not to mention, while 180 degree prerotation on a toe loop is "normal", Hanyu and Kim never go/went past 90. Literally perfect technique. Zhilina too.
@@lc4822 Hanyu does go past 90 what are you talking about? Use your eyes not your emotions. Here's Hanyu at 180 pre rotation on toeloop th-cam.com/video/jvYh9T52foY/w-d-xo.html 2018 Olympics he was caught in 4K.
I am thankful for your easy-to-understand explanation. Anyone should not speak ill of the rival of his or her idol skaters without knowing these rules.
I appreciate your efforts of being objective and the hardwork put in your channel. Keep up the good work! As for prerotation, I don't think it was ever an issue, hence why it's even in ISU jumping simulations. They used prerotating lutz, flip and toe loop jumpers at some point of the "correct technique" examples. This proves that ISU was always fine with 1/2 prerotation, and the "cheated take-off" rule applies to those who starts rotating with their body before they even use their feet (like toe axel). If the rule meant general 1/2 prerotation, it would also apply to salchow and loop too since it states "all jumps".
Thank you for these videos! I'm a casual fan of figure skating who's trying to learn more about the technical aspect of the sport so I really enjoyed this!
was pleasantly surprised to hear the instrumental to wind flower at the end of this with the nice jumps!! it's definitely a harder for me to spot in real time so this is a nice guide!
Tsurskaya's Lz is my all time favorite with that slight delay in rotation and quite the height, too. Just immaculate
Wow, Yuna is just perfect.
No, too many flaws. Bad loop. Too many falls. Constant uncalled UR jumps. Poor lines. Bad spins. Mallot foot spiral. Toe hammer with heavy forward lean on take off---not effortless. Poor flips with ugly outside and flat edges---Lip jumper. At least she had no pre-rotation. There's that and only that.
Thanks for this video! It's so helpful seeing visual examples broken down
Good video. I’d like to see/hear more people talk about where the balance/weight is in the context of flips and lutzes in particular. If the skater transfers too much weight onto the toe picking side, the takeoff will suffer. The skating foot should be used to push off, with the toe picking side as an assist (toe assisted takeoff). Also, with the emphasis on a clear BO edge in the lutz, many skaters are now forcing that edge, which makes a springy, flowing liftoff less likely. And for fun, go into the figure skating way back machine to learn about the toeless lutz 🙂
7:18
Look at that Rika's amazing Take off!
she can take off in minimal pre-rotation !
I love Rika 😍 She deserves so much
look at her now....broken
You should be given an award for your explanations
Excellent video, it really made me see the difference (and I'm a casual fan!). I wasn't too fond of the music you've chosen, but it's a minor thing... You really did a wonderful job. Thank you!
Wow, some of the girls you showed with good technique, like Nana and Veronica have very good jumps. Even better than some top skaters.
Wonderful explanation, I’ve been hearing and wondering what it means.
as a skater this is really interesting to me because my coach has always taught me to pre-rotate. all the coaches in my club teach pre-rotation.
especially salchows. i pre-rotate my sals 220 degrees because i mimic the feeling of an axel. honestly it’s something ive always done and never questioned.
Majority of coaches teach pre-rotation, because take off like Yuna's cause massive under rotations and inconsistency. Watch Yuna's programs (all of them). 90% of the time she fell. 10% she landed everything in both the short and free. She under rotated so much, but it was ignored because she was the only one doing 3lutz-3T
Great analysis overall...
I will say that the one thing that would really help a person 'see' is the exact tracing on the ice. Salchows and loops have unique tracing which show the pre-rotation.
The axel has its own unique take off and really the pre-rotation is only 1/4...if the axel is done properly, the toe turns to the side as the skater leaps in a forward momentum.
All skating jumps have pre-rotation. To say they have none is false. Having little pre-rotation is accepted up to 1/4 because of the momentum. It's impossible to have no pre-rotation.
The salchow and loop leave the ice on a curve, as they are edge jumps; but to say they are 180 is a bit much...you are already on a curve so if you look at the tracing, the jump is already curbing before you jump so the body is already rounding the curve prior to jumping.
To the naked eye when you watch the jumps being done, they look to be going in a particular fashion but the eye doesn't catch that their body is already riding the curve of the edge before jumping. It might 'look like 180 but if done properly, it's less aggressive than that.
I do agree there is excessive prerotation being done by many skaters and using that pre rotated lutz in the beginning, was perfect. They really need to start calling these because many of the russian girls 'quads' are not quads when taken down to the individual parts....and of course many triple are just poorly done doubles in disguise.
Keep up the great work though 😊
Thank you so much for all the work you have done so far. I am a new figure skating watcher, I dance a looooot but I have never skate. And this is really hard to understand why a "visually" nice skater does not get a great rank at the end. Your videos are really pedagogic, clear. Thanks again !
Greatings from France
Can you also talk about delayed jumps?
I liked how you used mamamoo music in 7:00 xD
This is especially a problem with Eteri's students. The girls' tiny bodies rely heavily on quick rotation and pre-rotation and then they struggle when they get older. This is especially concerning with how they are performing quads now. Alexandra Trusova and Alysa Liu have a huge problem with this imo.
i mean, it works. they won't change the techinque they teach as long as the eteri students win every single competition because why would they. they have to replace them before they turn 20, most much earlier, but why would they care when they have new students every year who can do it too
You probably have never seen Polina Tsurskaia...
@@feyanormorfol2457 Polina Tsurskaya and Alena Kostornaia are both exceptions. They had different coaches that taught them their jumps before they had joined Team Tutberidze. They were a bit older when they joined her team and already had their jumps.
Sasha Trusova may be okay for her jumps in the future since her triples tend to be rotated and her quad toe has good technique (she just pre-rotates slight on the other quads).
Anna Scherbakova, however, is a different story. Her quads are ALWAYS underrotated (but never called out) and even some of her triples are at times. She also lacks speed and flow on many of her jumps. I feel she may struggle with her jumps in the next few years...
@@lyramusica4485 lol, Tsurskaia and Anna S came to ET at the same age.
It's not that any coach can just inject same technics to all of his skaters.
I mean, compare Tukt and Samodurova. Both are coached by Mishin.
The eteri chick and team takes them the way they are. You need to come to them with triples already. However you have your triples (pre-rotated, toe hammer, etc) they don't care. They won't fix it. They teach quads and consistency. Whatever technique you got from your old coach they will not fix.
thanks a lot for your explanation. Your video helped me understand the prerotation situation better.
Thanks for doing this video! I was very confused but it is clear now. Thank you :3
Yuna's lutz sent shivers down my spine
People really don’t understand how hard it is to fix pre rotation, especially if you’ve been doing it your whole life.
Coaches are all teaching pre-rotation.
Thank you so much for posting this. A lot of people don’t realize that their favorite skaters are cheating their jumps and being rewarded high amounts of points for them.
Thanks for this vid! It really helped me understand jump technique better...tho it's still hard for me to see prerotations real time. Gotta train my eyes faster before the season starts 👀 also, peep at pentagon's like this being used for the BGM 😉
In my opinion the way to see it in real time (for pick jump) is to look for the skater toe pick. If other part of the blade starts to touch the ice (or full blade) then I can guarantee that the jump is prerotated. I agree with yuzutea that prerotated jump looks ugly. Pick jumps power come from the tap of toe pick to help launch the skater and if done right the jumps will look effortless.
Well done on this video! It explains everything clearly, and should be seen by...well, everyone.
Coming here after the 2022 winter olympics, I think pre-rotation matters a lot. It's not directly the death of figure skating, but the lack of a clear standard + not judging consistently according to that standard has made for the mess that was the ladies event. (I mean Sasha's expectations of gold for her 5 "quads", not Kamila's failed drug test.)
As someone who skates, all jumps require a bit of prerotation; I was taught
I think the ISU has added a lower GOE for excessive pre rotation for this upcoming season.
In that case Kaori shouldn't win anything for over 200 prerotation
After watching your video, I agree with everything you have said except... Axels. I had/have clean edge forward take-offs. During my amateur and professional show years, clean 1A and 2A take-offs -- no skids or turns. And now (at 56 years old) I still have a clean edge take-off.
Another reason for pre rotation is not enough physical strength to perform the jump. This turns into habitual technique not necessarily taught poor technique though a coach should be able to recognize it & work with the skater to build strength & technique.
Hello, thank you for this video, and many others you have. I did know what prerotation is, but I didn't know how judges look at it. So now I know I was being a little bit to much strict with loop. I still consider better jumps the ones with the less prerotation possible. And as you said, those ones should be rewarded with more GOE. It is all very well explained with good examples. And all being respectful. Thank u! 👍🏻
You really clarified this for me and in such an educative and thought provoking way. Thank you!
Figure skating rules are definitely extremely complicated! First -> recognize jumps, number of rotation and prerotation is really hard for normal viewers 😂
the judging system's absurd inconsistency in judging the same "flaws" and favoritism using pumped up component scores is one major problem the sport. The other is the end of choreographed programs in favor of mood music where is has become inconsequential what move you do where because almost none of it coincides with a musical event. The element of timing (i.e. suspense is gone) and so has the impact of most programs. The rule change in allowing vocal music and the flood of pulseless, or dynamically static music is ruining the drama of figure skating. Songs with words don't need to be musically interpreted because they tell you what they are about and they aren't composed with choreographic intent.
Furthermore, the lack of attention to footwork, spins and fields moves in favor of the big jump run set ups is making the sport unbalanced and watered down. While it seems a prerequisite that women be flexible enough to do the Biellmann spin, the catch foot layback is now just used as a transition to the Biellmann and has destroyed the layback spin, as almost nobody attains the proper attitude with the turned out knee. Nothing is held out for long because the more positions you obtain the more points you get. Most of the footwork even by the top skaters is slow looping and not delivered at high speed down the ice as was customary in the past...And while jumping technique has taken a big step forward in the last two decades and a lot high level spins are performed, they are not generally done with speed and often travel a lot. Did anybody notice in the pairs long program that not a single one of the final group in pairs performed a side by side spin combination? That's because they haven't practiced the skill and their unison is bad...in Pyeongchang when the final pairs group skated they attempted these spins but almost all of them were off in side by side unison. So there is some erosion in skills not related to jumping.
Finally someone talking some fucking sense about prerotation. I’m so tired of the knee-jerk reaction “prerotation bad!!!” from skating stans that have never skated in their life and don’t know what they’re talking about.
Great video! Thanks for putting it together. The ISU rulebook has been always put the emphasis on landing but not takeoff unfortunately. The amount of landing annotations in the rulebook basically tells the story. On quarter (q), underrotated (
Well, I had to come and watch this video again now that pre-rotation (or cheated take-offs) have been added to the guidelines of judging in the new communications for next season :)
got a little distracted when like this started playing as bgm lol but really interesting, thank you
okay but the mamamoo wind flower music at the end👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼
Any judge that watches the same skaters year after year does not need to watch a skaters' jumps in slow motion. Everybody knows what everybody's take off technique is. It is generally very difficult to change anyway. Look at Medvedeeva and how much she tried to change her technique.... There is less than a 10 percent chance that any skater who has done terns of thousands of a jump with a certain technique can change anything appreciably...If judges know the baseline degree of prerotation for the skaters jumps, they can already have a clear deduction in their mind before the skater even skates and then there is only to watch the jumps for timing flow and degree of clean rotation on the landing....
BTW, ALL of the Russian girls(except Tuktamysheva)pre rotate their Salchows and toe loops 3/4 revolutions some like Scherbakova are almost 1 full revolution pre rotated when they do the loop in combination.... They also do the crappy full blade take offs...
Thanks for the explanation. Wondered why jumps were looking weird lately.
Great video, very fair and knowledgeable, and it resolves a lot of issues that fans usually argue over.
But one thing is that as for the flip, I cannot remember if I have seen it on ISU handbook or instruction video, but I recall that it is also acceptable to prerotate a little on this jump because the body weight would lean toward the takeoff direction, so peroration is sort of inevitable and more natural for this jump than lutz.
Super informative and well explained. Nice Job!!
why am I watching these when I have an essay to write about ww1... i'm already late
For a non-skater (but a figure skating fan), I find it very difficult to see the the degrees of pre-rotation even in slow-mo videos. In real-time, do the judges get to recognize this where every jump happens so fast?
This was extremely educational. Thank you.
Thanks for the video! It's a very clear and fair explanation!
2:24 A Goddess has Appeared.
Alexander Lakernik, Alla, and Adelina Flutznikova are QUAKING!!
I seriously hope that the OP starts blocking/calling out unneccessarily rude replies like these two if they want to keep their integrity and not let their channel become Koola King 2.0. It's 2019, let's try to keep it civil and constructive.
@@kurooscoffee You know what else is rude? Robbing a skater who dedicated her entire childhood to sport only to be robbed. ISU and the Russian Skating Federation allowed this to happen. They then constructed false statements claiming that Yuna agreed with the results and that Adelina was better than her. Adelina went on to say that she won't come back until she is ready because her gold medal is a status that she doesn't want to tarnish. Like bitch... that gold medal was a fake status. There is nothing lower than fake gold medal. You want to keep the integrity of the SPORT? CALL OUT ISU and the disgusting cheaters who think its okay to cheat others out of medals they poured their blood sweat and tears into. A two time consecutive olympic champion is a BIG deal. I would like to see you shrug that off. Imagine getting arthritis at 15, spinal injuries, only to be cheated at your last competition. DISGUSTING. You need to re-evaluate yourself.
@@kurooscoffee Honesty and justice can afford to be rude sometimes.
Dude, get over it. Adelina won. She had the technical content, she had better spins, she had big jumps and the judges' guidelines didn't say anything about giving more points to the one that had overall better technique. She completed the requirements established by the rules and took the gold. 6 years ago. Were those rules ok? It doesn't matter. They were still the rules, and according to them, she won fairly. So leave her alone, nor she or Yuna are even competing right now.
@@JustSmileBiitch Defending Adelina is okay and slandering her is not but please do not go this far. Even legends like Dick Button and Kurt Browning called out the Sochi judgement. This is why Russian skaters get away with everything just like how Anna gets away with prerotations and somehow won the 2021 Worlds. Adelina has great spins such as her signature catchfoot camel and illusion spin but there is no such thing as "big jumps" when it comes to her. She did so many mistake, yet Mao who had "big jumps" and minimal fouls couldn't even win the free skating. Sochi was a disgrace and no one should ever get over it but slandering Adelina is never okay.
The 2019 world champ was deserved by Nathan, he was brilliant. But here is what I actually felt after that, He is another challenge that YUZURU is actually happy and excited to face, even if he lost the gold but he being an emotional skater, a typical strong headed one with a really high competitive spirit. Yuzu being involved with loads of injuries and accidents, he had to pace a little slower as compared to what his original goal was, Nathan's name showed up just at the right time as JAVI left the spot. We all know how Yuzu is obsessed with aiming higher and higher, taking new challenges, and enjoying the pressure to its fullest while being able to explore his own worth and capabilities.
His recent skate programmes at CANADA and all clearly demonstrated that he is even more bold and fearless than ever.
I heard that new technology is going to be used in judging of the jumps ,which will do basically the work for judges ,and help to judge it correctly,and it will catch the images before take off,during and after ,with all the rotations ,so ,that would be quite a new era !👌
Thanks for this thorough and clear explanation of pre-rotation. I also wonder about the impact of excessive pre-rotation on skater's bodies. Any thoughts?
My thought also...Bad for the back
it's really bad for the knees, hips and spine... Explains why russians young skaters retire by the age of 21 :/
Excessive prerotation creates a great deal of stress for the back, but it allows you the possibility of delivering techniques you otherwise wouldn't be able to. It's a shortcut that doesn't carry much penalty under current judging, but you definitely pay for it later in life.
@@charlesw5919 I thought so, thank you.
Very interesting! Thank you for putting this together... even as a longtime skating fan, I don’t care about under-rotation unless it’s really obvious in real-time so I really don’t notice pre-rotation. How do you feel about skaters who do a big counter swing? Caroline Zhang comes to mind-her lutz in particular. Generally, I think the technical panel should have every real-time, slow-mo, stro-mo-whatever they need in order to call it right! Then, skaters would be incentivized toward good technique. Also, bring back the figures!! Technique in general has declined so much since they killed the figures! Lord, I’ve become the old senile person.
By counter swing, do you mean the “mule kick” where she swings her leg up super high and slams it into the ice to take off? Yeah that’s really bad...jumps that use that technique are usually very poor quality and are punished in grade of execution by the judges. Caroline’s was one of the worst...kanako murakami too.
Yuzutea yes! The physics of it are really baffling. To this day, I think Nancy Kerrigan still has the best triple lutz. The solo lutz in her 94 Olympic free was just divine.
Boyang's quad lutz is so textbook it makes me wanna cry
I just want to say one thing - *DON'T DOUBT YUZURU HANYU* .
He is the crazy god damn skater GOAT of FS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS VIDEO
Thank you, this was super helpful!
Do you plan on making other videos about the correct technique of other FS elements? Like spin for example? I’m a newbie to the sport and feel a bit loss...
I'm planning on doing other introductory videos about scoring/technique for new fans as well! Thanks for watching!
it does look neater if the technique is accurate.
i just wanna say that yuzu really is that bitch that refuses to be called out for prerotation... look at him looking the other way just so his body wont unconsciously prerotate
we stan
This video was very useful, thank you!
Great job!
I'm not a figure skater, but what I can see is that a proper jump has more speed and the jump is visibly higher than a jump with poor technique.
very informative video! nice music too from a kpop fan
I like the winter flower instrumental!
I totally and completely agree with you. 💗
Goddess yuna... So perfect, so beautiful
Pre-Rotation and Correct Technique is THE BURNING THEME in Figure Skating. ISU should define the Take Offs of each Jump more precisely and they should define the numbers of Revolutions executed in the Air for each Jump. As long Technical Specialists can not watch Take Offs with Slow Motion, Pre-Rotation will be executed excessively to get the Points.
The Skaters don't know about there Technical Mistakes, they follow the Coaches instructions. And because these skaters will be the future Technical Specialists and will not know about correct Technique it will get even worse.
I think 2 1/4 Revolutions for a 3Lz and 3 1/4 Revolutions for a 4Lz is not enough.
And a Lutz with Unclear Edge, Full blade, Forward Take off and Crossed Legs during Take off is not a Lutz! The cheated ones are the good teaching Coaches and their Skaters.
Kaori would never win a world championship then. She pre-rotates over 200
When you know the answers but still want to watch
I've seen some folks keep complaining about "pre-rotation" but they couldn't tell you where in the FS rulebook says it's not allowed.
Well duh did you watch the video? Prerotation was never written in the ISU handbook but it mentions "cheated take-off".
@@node9691 did you read what I wrote?
@@wkim22 Yeah. Did you?
@@node9691 You don't know how to read
@@sallymaeyourass Looks like someone used a burner account to say that I didn't read😂
Interesting.. It totally makes sense that the ISU is vague on prerorations. At some point the formal judging and what the casual eye sees at normal speed must converge. I'll explain what i mean in a minute. To me this whole topic of peroration is very closely related to jump height. It's only logical that a higher jump leaves less opportunity to either perorate or underrotate, though of course speed of rotation and distance travelled matter too in how and where exactly the skater will land. Now back to what the eye sees.. There's also the question of physics - namely momentum. Here's why i think what the eye sees at normal speed does matter. What the eye mostly sees is which way they were facing when they started the jump and when they landed. If the toe pick is touching the ice does not mean there is any weight on it at all, so from the point of view of physics that is sort of incidental. It does not really significantly change the momentum of the jump. If what you see is a constant motion upwards then chances are the weight has left the ice at some point with the 180 degrees. Same on landing. What really matters is that the body lands facing the right direction, because that means the momentum of the jump managed to carry it to the correct position. When exactly the toe pick touched down does not necessarily mark the transfer of weight. If it did, this would probably be visible in the position of the slide out of the jump. This is why it probably makes more sense to give higher GOE for a higher, tighter, straighter jump, than nix on this whole toe touching ice factor. Because this is more in line with what the casual eye sees. The height, the lightness the distance of the jump this is what makes it beautiful and exhilarating.
great video; definitely, judges should consider the quality of the take-off much more than they tend to do generally. But as a former judge, I can say that it is not so easy "at normal speed" and with the limited time you have to score 376 things! ;-) Said that, the major problems are seen on F and Lz (which also have the potential edge problem) and there are not 56 F or Lz in a program..But, yeah at the olympics we definitely saw some poor-technique (quadruple) jumps being overrated......
Your expert! I love this kinds of video♥
Ok here’s the fact of the matter: prerotation is necessary. As a figure skater, I’d know. I don’t do this, and because of that I underrotate my jumps. I need to get this down for my final bit of rotation on my triples.
What it does: initiate rotation and direction of the jump. That’s it.
Prerotation is only cheap if it’s too much, but that actually also can hinder the jump. So yeah.
Of course your personal strengths and style as a skater change, but for most, it’s extremely difficult without prerotation.