Instant Banzuke! Nagoya (July) 2024 to Aki (September) 2024!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- For a basho that looked more like a coronation than a competition, it had a hell of a finish. But it's got nothing on how bonkers the next banzuke is going to be.
Music: Tropical Contact by Jason Shaw (audionautix.com)
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I did this on my own and got completely lost around M12 range and was like, 'lets see what spiffy thinks' lol
That's why I leave it to the pros...
FInally i have at least littlbe bit distant idea how banzuke promotion system works. Thank you :) Poor Nabatame, just promoted to Juryo and will likely go back to makushita just after promotion
My favorite part of the basho.
did a quick draft right after the basho... got basically the same run as you do (+/- 0.5 ranks here and there) up until m13 where basically it all feels like a giant crap shoot on how you place all the "should have been demoted" guys.. not having anyone worthy of promotion from juryo is gonna demolish cards all around this time
Poor Hiradoumi. He deserves the Sekiwake rank.
If Terunofuji and maybe Takakeisho decide to retire then the situation would really become interesting on how to fill the 42 makuuchi spots.
I don't think either of them are planning to retire soon.
From Teru interview: "I feel that I was able to achieve a bit of the sumo I've been aiming for every day. From now on, I want to continue training to perfect it even more."
Coach Tokiwayama said on Monday that "Takakeisho" will be contesting September and trying to take ozeki back.
I could see Kitanowaka going ahead of Chiyoshoma because a 3 rank promotion on a 8-7 is a 2 rank overpromotion, but only 2 rank demotion on an essentially 5-10 record would be a 3 rank underpromotion. Either way, one of them is getting lucky but you they could also take Chiyoshoma's injury into account. We really don't know since the Banzuke committee is always changing the rules on rank over record or record over rank.
What’s the formula for “doing the math” at the beginning? This could use an explainer.
you can roughly say that the difference between win and loss is the rank you gain or lose
I probably should start working that back into the script. Wins minus losses is the number of ranks they move initially, aka "by the math". 10-5 goes up five ranks, 8-7 goes up one rank, 6-9 goes down three ranks. That's the starting point for moving everyone around.
Sumo Spiffy has a terrific two part series on How the Banzuke Works. highly recommended and fun to watch.
Last basho Kinbozan and Oshoma had the exact same records and ranks as Midorifuji and Endo have now. They put Kinbozan ahead, so I think Midorifuji will go ahead of Endo.
Takanosho being done DIRTY. +9 and only M6 -> M1 because of the logjam at Komusubi and Sekiwake (and the problem at high Maegashira).
Any chance Oho gets the overpromote, especially because M2W -> M2W for Mitakeumi at 7-8 might be questionable?
Yeah, it's definitely possible. It's one of those situations where they could go one way this basho and go the other way with the same numbers but different wrestlers next basho.
Love these videos! Just a quick question: why wouldn’t Daieisho and Hiradoumi not move up to Sekiwake with winning records? Is this an exception to the normal banzuke rules?
No, those are the normal banzuke guidelines. Komusubi don't move up, even with a winning record, unless there's an open slot or they have at least eleven wins. Neither of those things are the case, so they'll stay where they are.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill thank you for the explanation!!
Re: swapping sekiwake - I think Abi and Onosato stay where they are. The recent standard seems to be that swapping requires the lower sekiwake win at least a jun-yusho. See Nov. 2022, where they left Wakatakakage (8-7) and Hoshoryu (11-4) alone.
I get what you're saying, but even recent history may not be a good precedent. Isegahama ran the banzuke committee for a long time, including Nov. 2022, but he got dumped out of the position in Dec. 2022 because of bullying at his stable. Since then, banzuke trends have had some noticeable changes, so what was done before 2023 isn't necessarily reliable information. And in the only instance in 2023 or 2024 where a lower-ranked sekiwake had a better record than a higher-ranked one, and would have to force the higher-ranked one down in order to move ahead, that's exactly what happened. So, for now, there's a much better chance of it happening than the last ten-ish years might suggest.
Random Question, do you remember Azumaryu?
Yeah. He just retired not that long ago.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill I was taken by surprise when he went 4-11 back in March 2023
Thank you for the banzuke video.
My guess is pretty similiar but grudgingly, I promoted Kitanowaka. I much prefer your banzuke to mine 😮
** Y = Terunofuji **
** O1 = Kotozakura Hoshoryu **
** S1 = Onosato Abi **
** S2 = Kirishima Takakeisho **
** K = Hiradoumi Diaeisho **
** M1 = Takanosho Tobizaru **
** M2 = Atamifuji Mitakeumi **
** M3 = Oho Wakamotoharu **
** M4 = Shodai Kotoshoho **
** M5 = Wakatakakage Shonannoumi **
** M6 = Ura Meisei **
** M7 = Churanoumi Gonoyama **
** M8 = Endo Midorifuji **
** M9 = Ichiyamamoto Oshoma **
** M10 = Tamawashi Roga **
** M11 = Sadanoumi Kagayaki **
** M12 = Kinbozan Bushozan **
** M13 = Onokatsu Hokutofuji **
** M14 = Nishikigi Shirokuma **
** M15 = Takayasu Ryuden **
** M16 = Takarafuji Onosho **
** M17 = Kitanowaka **
--- ---
** J1 = Tokihayate Nishikifuji **
** J2 = Chiyoshoma Shishi **
** J3 = Tamashoho Asanoyama**
** J4 = Shimazuumi Shimanoumi **
** J5 = Daiamami Hakuoho **
** J6 = Hidenoumi Tsurugisho**
** J7 = Mitoryu Shiden **
** J8 = Asakoryu Hakuyozan **
** J9 = Daishoho Myogiryu **
** J10 = Tohakuryu Fujiseiun **
** J11 = Tomokaze Takerufuji **
** J12 = Daiseizan Kiryuko **
** J13 = Aoiyama Kayo **
** J14 = Chiyosakae Oshomi **
After some thinking and reading, I agree that Kitanowaka is likely to go up. I got a little stuck on the idea of "earning" the promotion, but Chiyo probably dropped too far to stay.
Some of the recently banzukes have been challenging, but if you really wanna have some fun, check out some of the banzukes from the 70’s and 80’s. You’d have like, 3 Yokozuna and 5 ozeki, and the whole bloated sanyaku would be overperforming. And then just… utter devastation in the joi. It was almost as if the upper and lower maegashira would just switch places whole cloth every other basho. You’d need to overpromote winning lower rankers to fill out the joi, who would then get slayed and back down they would go.
No wonder the old conservatives criticize the ozeki so much (if we can even hold on to ozeki these days…)
I think Aki will be Aoiyama's last hurrah. His body is shot and he won't get KK, so I think he'll drop to Makushita and then retire before Kyushu.
Just recently got into sumo so sorry if this is a stupid question but…what makes a rikishi’s rank go from east to west??
East is considered higher than west. So, let's say we have maegashira one through sixteen. That's 32 guys. If you simply lined them up numerically, they'd be #1, 2, 3, etc., down to 32. With this system maegashira one east is #1, one west is #2, two east is #3, and so on down to sixteen west, who's #32. If someone, for example, finishes 9-6 at maegashira 12 east (#23 on the list), they might get promoted to maegashira 9 west, which is #18 on the list. The fact he went from east to west doesn't really matter; he was still promoted and is at a higher standing in the division overall.
If someone stays at the same number rank, but goes from east to west, that means they're being demoted. If they go from west to east, they're being promoted. Generally this only happens if someone has a 7-8 or 8-7 record, respectively.
Thank you for your video.
Isn't there a chance that they will premote Onosato to Ozeki? Yes he missed by one win the 33 wining standard for the last three Bashos. But he has beaten twice the Yokozuna and won a Basho in that time frame.
He was M5 in March. Would be lowest starting point for a ozekirun ever. Couple of guys started from M4 in the 60-70's. Tochinoshin started his ozekirun in 2018.01 from M3, but got 37 wins over the three basho period. Terunofuji started his ozekirun in 2015.01 from M2 and got 33 wins+J+JY+4 special prices. Onosato had 33 wins from M5+Y+JY+5 special prices.
Iceman is correct on the details, but there's a simpler reason why it won't happen: the wrestler has to get at least ten wins at sekiwake in the final basho of the run in order to be promoted to ozeki.
Outside of that-if, say, Onosato had reached ten wins and thus also had 33 wins in his last three-the fact the first basho was at M5 would the reason he's not promoted. It was made clear before this basho that an ozeki run is expected to only include tournaments in the sanyaku. If he had popped off super hard, like a 13-2 yusho, I think they'd have made an exception, but I think the statement was made so people didn't expect him to make ozeki by reaching that basic 33-in-3 milestone.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill So then, for the sake of argument, were Onosato to go 12-3 or better in September, as a Sekiwake, He'd have a strong case for promotion at that point then? I'm trying to understand myself, haha
@@GatsbyCioffi He'd have a case, for sure. Given that two of their four ozeki from last basho are now no longer at the rank, I think they'd probably give it to him and view the 9-6 as a blip if sandwiched by two 12-3s. But we probably wouldn't have to guess; the JSA tends to hint at what they're expecting for such a promotion if it looks like someone's going to have a borderline case.
What’s the best service to watch sumo stateside? NHK does a fair job but I always find they are a day behind at key moments, such as not having yet put up day 15.
I don't know what legal options exist for staying up to date on the tournaments. I've heard of people here and there who say they wound up spending a couple hundred bucks or more for cable or satellite packages that include sumo, but I don't know any details.
There are, quite literally, thousands of people who have said they would plunk down a few bucks a month for a legal stream or other reasonably priced option, but end up watching through one pirate or another because it's the only option. If you want to watch live (or a live recording), check out some Twitch streamers. (They're not too hard to find. Just search "sumo".) If you want shorter recordings, there's Natto Sumo; you'll have to hit up his Discord to find them, but he's the most popular by far. Then there's Kintamayama on Rumble, although he just does the top division.
I attempted my first GTB this time. It was fun although I gave up half way through because the lower half of Makuuchi was too much of a headache. I thought the math as too much a defining factor and it seemed confusing promoting some guys as heavily as was needed to fill the ranks. I guess the math really isn't much more than just the starting point. But I'm proud that until M8 my draft was very similiar to yours. I just had Ura & WTK and Midorifuji & Endo flipped because I thought the committee might favour higher rank over result.
Do you think there is a chance they will keep Asanoyama in Makuuchi instead of Chiyoshoma? It'd seem less of an underdemotion. But I guess Asa is too far down mathematically and Chiyo will likely actually participate next tournament and I imagine the committee rather wants active fighters in Makuuchi instead of Juryo if they need to decide.
No chance Asanoyama stays. He's below all the other guys under consideration for staying in makuuchi; even if the injury was minor and he planned to fight, he would be in juryo.
And yeah, the math really is just a starting point. Maybe you'll have more fun with the bottom of the banzuke this time-figuring it out is going to be much more of an art than a science.
Dang! No, love for Meisei dropping him 6 slots and only dropping Ura and Wakamotoharu one and half slots. I see Meisei dropping no less to an M5.
Those two extra wins can make a big difference.
What do the letters after some guys ranks mean? I get that Y means Yusho but that's it
After their record, you mean? Y = yusho, J = jun-yusho (runner-up), D = playoff loss (I think D stands for doten? not sure). A jun-yusho is finishing runner-up without a playoff, so you should only see J or D on a given banzuke, not both.
G, S, and K = gino-sho, shukun-sho, and kanto-sho. These are the special prizes (sansho) awarded after each basho. Not all of them are given out every time, and sometimes multiple guys can win the same award, but in this case one wrestler won each.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill Thanks!
Sry random question, but where do you think Aonishiki will end up?
Makushita promotions are weird, but 6-1 from ms17 usually lands guys somewhere from ms3-8. The one person I saw make a guess has him at ms4e.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill awesome, thank you. Still trying to understand how the lower ranks get calculated.
This Onosato needs to prove that he has other effrctive techniques other than stepping aside. Heavily relies on his big frame and not mich real substance to his matches.
But you didn't answer the most important question! How far are they going to push down Naba?
Far enough that hes gonna need at least two kachi-kochi to get back to Juryo. I like him and hes a fun guy, but at his height and weight you need a backup plan to "just oshi forward".
Probably ms5-6. Another 5-2 would put him in position for a November return, though.
@@maxmalten7749 True, he was out of his element.
hey guys, I have a question I really wanna ask, right after Terunofuji won the playoff and walked off, someone quit big with short hair in white shirt patted on his back as a gesture of congratulation, was that Hakuho? I couldn't tell, it would make sense because they are under the same roof now, but a bit weird since their history and how Hakuho won his last bout against Teru.
Yes it was hakuho
@@ebenezerj Ok thank you mate! It really bothered me for a whole day:)
@@william2850 Hakuho and Teru are privatly actually friends since years. It started way before they shared the stable. They also have been during their rivalry. A lot of wrestlers like their oponents and hang out with them. You can see it good on Chrissumo when I shows footage of the sumo tours, there the Wrestlers are more relaxed.
But as soon when it comes to matches in the ring, there is no more friendship, just pure will to win.
When it comes to mindset during matches just watch interviews of Akebono, Musashimaru, or especially Konishiki. They are very vocal about their intetion to kill the oponent legaly.
Konishiki has an awesome presence all over TH-cam and other platforms. 😉
@@pierreheider4581 Oh wow, thanks for the insight bro, I really didn't know that. But still, as much as I admire Hakuho, I really don't like constant slapping opponent in the face type of rikishi, that's why I just couldn't look forward to and enjoy Takakeisho's bout
why Daiesho and Hiradoumi don't move up to Sekiwake? is there any restriction to the number of sekiwake? Especially for Hiradoumi having a 10-5 basho and only "moving up" half a rank is not fair.
Daiesho has no chance to go to Sekiwake this time around. You need at least 2 Sekiwake, I've seen real banzuke with 6 Sekiwake, that's why those list maxes out at 6. No idea if there is a max at it. If there would have been only one Sekiwake, the other Komozubi had a losing record, Daiesho would go up for sure. But Hiradoumi had a better record and there are at least 3 Sekiwake (If Takakeisho retires), so no chance with just 8-7 to go up.
Hiradoumi is a different story, he really deserves a promotion with 10-5. But I think they hold him back, because 3-4 Sekiwake on the list already. Also they usually only promote Komosubi with a 11-4 and then create a new Sekiwake, despite enough Sekiwake on the list. If you would promote Hiradoumi, they also neef one more promotion to Komosubi, you need minimum two. That means one more Sanyaku and the Sanyaku get paid more, they wont like to do that.
It may not be fair, but there is a theoretical upside-if Hiradoumi really goes nuts the next two bashos, ten wins can be a reasonable start to an ozeki run. The odds of that may be quite slim, but it ain't nothing.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill terunofuji moved to sekiwake from M2 with 8-7 back in 2015 i think. Of course different circumstances but still 8-7 from M2 is enough for sekiwake but not a 10-5 from komusubi..
@@dimitriskarydis4489 Everyone ahead of him had a losing record. Both sekiwake slots were vacated, and someone had to fill them. He was fortunate enough to be in a position to do that. It happens.
TBH, I kinda wished Kirishima would've lost on Day 15 just so he would crash out of sanyaku, and make space for Hiradoumi at sekiwake. 10-5 as a shin-komusubi should've given him the bump, and I think that's deeply unfortunate that he'll be denied.
If Kiri lost, he would have just dropped to komusubi. (Yeah, they almost certainly would have made a new komusubi slot for him with a 7-8 record.) Hiradoumi would also still be at komusubi, since even without Kiri there will be three sekiwake, and ten wins isn't enough to open a new slot.
Can their be 5 sekiwaki?
There can, although I don't know if the committee would be in a rush to make it happen. If Hiradoumi had managed eleven wins, presumably he'd become a fifth sekiwake, but I wouldn't be completely shocked if they kept him at komusubi. It wouldn't really be fair, but I could see it happening.
@sumospiffysbarandgrill I though if you got double digit wins at komosubi it was automatic promotion to sekiwaki?
@@LionelBradleygolf Nope. Has to be eleven.
Asano womp womp tho? I get its probably a joke, but theres not a whole lot of comedy behind a 300+ pound man tearing his ACL (or one of the other CL ligaments). That pop in Asanoyama's knee didnt look very funny.
I wanna clarify, not trying to hate on you or anything. From an outsiders perspective, it looks like you know what you're doing and you enjoy doing so. I got nothing against you.
Injuries that athletes can't control isn't exactly a laughing matter, especially when it takes then out for 6 months minimum
It's not supposed to be laughing at him; it's more that it's comical just how snakebitten the poor guy has been. But you made me realize there's a better option, so I changed the thumbnail.